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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: newgene87 on August 26, 2012, 08:08:43 PM
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So my paying attention to the words is getting me YET again. But this is coming out of the Scriptures. So reading through Genesis 3, i stumbled across this and it FINALLY caught my eye.
"and the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die (obvious lie): for God does know that in the day ye eat thereof, then (1)your eyes shall be opened, and (2) ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:4-5) and the rest was history. YET, this actually came to pass - what Satan said would happen
(1) "and the eyes of them both WERE opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Gen 3:7)
(2) "and Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live to the age" (Gen 3:22)
So it seems to me that Satan told truth because what he said actually came to pass. It actually happened for one, and God attested to the other.
would I be on track to conclude that Satan started with a LIE and exhibited a truth to BEGUILE or deceive?? I feel like i discovered a tool to be aware of his "Travesty" and "trickery" ways (Ephesians 6:11). Trying not "to be ignorant of his device" (2 Corinthians 2:11). I've always been programmed to know Satan is only lies but here he actually told some truth; but lied to deceive with truth (???) yea, looks like a square circle :D. well, wondering if anyone else sees that. Thanks
Eugene
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Gen 3:2-4 ...the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
'You shall die' vs. 'You will not surely die' are polar opposites. Also, to 'know' good and evil was a knowledge that Adam and Eve already had. To discern between good and evil was something they did not possess and many lack to this day. It was a complete lie on Satan's part.
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I [Jesus] have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Jesus sums up Satan and his purpose perfectly clear in this passage.
Marques
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Gen 3:2-4 ...the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
'You shall die' vs. 'You will not surely die' are polar opposites. Also, to 'know' good and evil was a knowledge that Adam and Eve already had. To discern between good and evil was something they did not possess and many lack to this day. It was a complete lie on Satan's part.
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I [Jesus] have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Jesus sums up Satan and his purpose perfectly clear in this passage.
Marques
"to discern between good and evil was something they did not possess" vs "to know good and evil" --- okay that just confused me. I thought God said, "BEHOLD, The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil" (v. 22 Concordant). So how did they already possess "knowing good and evil" if it came to be after partaking of the tree???
and i know Satan LIED about them dying, i wasnt debating that. but Satan was right in saying "there eyes were to be opened" and man was to become as God. God did say, "Man as become as one of US" - that's what i'm saying. In the words of Ray - Scripture couldve said, "they're eyes were closed and they were blind" and "well, they're now completely sin and has become evil creatures of habit and not like me" and so on but God SAYS EXACTLY what Satan said that's all. He was actually right and he beguiled them into disobeying God
Eugene
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Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is worthless unless one knows how to apply it to their lives. That's what I mean by discernment.
Satan said 'in that day you eat it you will be like God'. God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day. God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live. Satan makes no reference to how one is to live forever because he does not want them to.
So no, God does not say exactly what Satan says. Why is this even a point of debate?
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Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is worthless unless one knows how to apply it to their lives. That's what I mean by discernment.
Satan said 'in that day you eat it you will be like God'. God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day. God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live. Satan makes no reference to how one is to live forever because he does not want them to.
So no, God does not say exactly what Satan says. Why is this even a point of debate?
Well, I hardly call it debating Marques. I needed a little clearer explanation myself and so I'm pretty glad he asked because your response is just what I needed. Beautiful.
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Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is worthless unless one knows how to apply it to their lives. That's what I mean by discernment.
Satan said 'in that day you eat it you will be like God'. God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day. God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live. Satan makes no reference to how one is to live forever because he does not want them to.
So no, God does not say exactly what Satan says. Why is this even a point of debate?
Well, I hardly call it debating Marques. I needed a little clearer explanation myself and so I'm pretty glad he asked because your response is just what I needed. Beautiful.
my point as well. not a debate -- i was trained from a wise man to pay attention to the words and from a intellectual level - i can pretty much see what's on the surface of a page and maybe a few levels below. any deeper than that; i seek understanding but Im able to discern if something is off. But with the right wording and God's revelation, truth is seen --- not debating nor accusation of debating ;D
I mean ive been reading this site for a long time now; the method i used to pull that out is the EXACT same method that Ray uses to discover truths. Am i off that that Satan says it himself that the man's eyes were to be opened and they were to be like God knowing good and evil and God says it came to be in verse 22?? its clearly written and i word it, so Im not wrong. but i'm not saying Satan is a spirit of truth either. but what you said was enlightening so thank you. but im not simple either ;)
God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day was the golden ticket so thank you. the point is, THAT DAY, is the key i missed. and to slightly correct...
God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live is missing a KEY element. and that's for "...them to live to the eons". Just for them to live? they lived on to have 3 more children by name and obviously many more. so it's not like they died THAT DAY. But they wont live to the eons till after the Resurrection. :) :) :) so i got it. thanks
Eugene
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Satan is a liar, and loves to lie on God, using scripture if it is a means to beguile and cause someone to miss the mark in serving God.
There are tons of ministers out there that Satan is using to deceive the masses, is he lording it over God? No! he is being used of God just like he has been used from the beginning.
Satan used parts of Psalms 91:11-12 when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness Matthew 4:5-6.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Joel
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Satan is a liar, and loves to lie on God, using scripture if it is a means to beguile and cause someone to miss the mark in serving God.
There are tons of ministers out there that Satan is using to deceive the masses, is he lording it over God? No! he is being used of God just like he has been used from the beginning.
Satan used parts of Psalms 91:11-12 when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness Matthew 4:5-6.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Joel
Perfect reminder.
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Just a thought here, I was always told that a good liar uses 90% truth. So satan is the father of lies, maybe that is the reason of your confusion? Because he is the father of lies he is perfect at his job. Hope this helps.
Greg
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Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is worthless unless one knows how to apply it to their lives. That's what I mean by discernment.
Satan said 'in that day you eat it you will be like God'. God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day. God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live. Satan makes no reference to how one is to live forever because he does not want them to.
So no, God does not say exactly what Satan says. Why is this even a point of debate?
I don't see where "Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil?" The man was commanded or charged not to eat, okay he had knowledge, but the woman was not told anything except what Adam said when he saw her? So where did the woman get this knowledge?
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Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is worthless unless one knows how to apply it to their lives. That's what I mean by discernment.
Satan said 'in that day you eat it you will be like God'. God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day. God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live. Satan makes no reference to how one is to live forever because he does not want them to.
So no, God does not say exactly what Satan says. Why is this even a point of debate?
I don't see where "Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil?" The man was commanded or charged not to eat, okay he had knowledge, but the woman was not told anything except what Adam said when he saw her? So where did the woman get this knowledge?
The woman was the responsibility of the man.
So she should have gotten the knowledge from "pillow talk" with her husband. You know how men have to brag and show off all their knowledge, well that has to be the reason.
Indiana Bob
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Ray spoke on this in one of his writings but i can not find it :(. hopefully someone can. He mentioned that "Ye" refers to "you all" speaking of more than one person. or an irregular pural of thou. so with that in mind...
maybe it's something to, "...he (the serpent) said unto the woman". and not to the man (hmmmmm....)
"Yea, hath God said, YE shall not eat of every tree of the garden.?" And the woman said unto the serpent, WE may eat..." {and then...}..."...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, AND GAVE ALSO UNTO HER husband WITH HER; and he did eat" (Gen 3:1-2, 6)
"paying attention to the words" is like my favorite method now. As we can see, Adam WAS with her, but it was the Serpent that spoke to the woman first. maybe because she was "the weaker vessell" (??) [1 Pet 3:7]
Back to them having knowledge deal...I mean how could they really have "knowledge" when it was "knowledge" or better yet, "sense or perception" that was ONLY from that Tree? Well from the words of Ray, from the 2nd paper in the Lake of Fire series
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
I was reminded of two scriptures in Job containing this thought -
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words WITHOUT knowledge? (Job 38:2)
"Willing to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. (1 Timothy 1:7)
and these verses are in DIRECT relation to the words of the woman,
"and the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden (and she missed when God said, "mayest eat FREELY" 2:16); but of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ye shall not eat of it, and ye shall not touch it, lest ye die (God said, "DYING, thou shall die" 2:17)" (Genesis 3:2-3) -- she omitted "eat freely" and added "shall not touch it, lest ye die"
surely, SHE HAD WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE AND DESIRING TO TELL THE SERPENT OF THE LAW OF GOD, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHE WAS SAYING. Adam stood there fooled as well, cause he didnt know either. he had LIFE (or the "breath of life") without knowledge. Just as Job, the Woman - "...hath spoken without knowledge, and his (her) words were without wisdom. (Job 34:35). and it falls back on that state of man..."OH THAT THERE WERE SUCH AN HEART IN THEM, THEY THEY WOULD FEAR ME, AND KEEP ALL MY COMMANDMENTS ALWAYS" (Deuteronomy 5:29). Maybe the serpent knew that the Man would easily do what the woman was doing, out of fervent love for her.
Now this was a revelation JUST NOW typing all this. I would love some critiques and hopefully i stayed faithful to the scriptures. It is possible to have words without knowledge, as seen in those scriptures. And Adam was right along with her, just seems the target was the Woman, and she was beguiled. I dont understand HOW or WHY they would be APART from each other. As said at the end of chapter 2, he was to... "CLEAVE unto his wife". and even he sayed, "The woman whom Thou didst place with me--she hath given to me of the tree--and I do eat.'
well this is just my thinking and again, "paying attention to the words".
Eugene
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surely, SHE HAD WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE AND DESIRING TO TELL THE SERPENT OF THE LAW OF GOD, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHE WAS SAYING.
The Lord confronted Job in Job 38 by asking, rhetorically, who gives counsel without knowledge. That is not like Eve at all.
Eve knew (as in had knowledge of) that fact she was not to eat of the tree of knowledge. That is a form of knowing right from wrong. But Eve and Adam both desired the fruit of the tree more than they desired to obey God.
Adam and Eve gave into their carnal flesh. And it was only after they partook of the fruit, and 'looked back', that they saw themselves for what they are [the Beast] and were ashamed.
All the stories in the Bible are the same, every last one of them, from Genesis to Revelation. Just like all the parables told by Jesus are the same. Same message, different time/place/people.
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The Lord confronted Job in Job 38 by asking, rhetorically, who gives counsel without knowledge. That is not like Eve at all.
So i'm guessing in other parts, his friends were saying something rhetorical?
"Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge." (Job 35:16) --- and regarding in Vain, you see she omitted "eat FREELY of all the trees" and then added, "shall not touch, lest you die" [adding and taking away?]. she opened her mouth in vain....
"Then Job answered the LORD, and said...Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." (Job 42:1-3)
Even Ray said it was required for them to take the first step into becoming the image of God by partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. so you're saying they had knowledge of right (good) and wrong (evil) BEFORE they ate?
I'm still not seeing how they had a "knowledge (perception, sense)" of something - before they partook of the only tree which had that needed knowledge (as Ray said). And then it's not seen that scripture declares people to have words without knowledge? They "heard" what God said, but how could they "understand to keep it" seeing, (1) they didnt have the heart and (2) it was God's intention to eat of it. Maybe the means for this to happen was for them to NOT have the knowledge needed for the commandment......well, a scriptural journey of "knowledge" and a "fool"
~ "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: FOOLS despise wisdom and INSTRUCTION (...shall not eat) (Pro 1:7)
~ "O that they had a heart, that they would fear me..." (Deut 5:29)
~ "The way of a FOOL is right in (her) own eyes (first part of Genesis 3:6); but he that is wise hearkens unto counsel" (Pro 12:15) ---- and who is he that "darkens counsel BY words without knowledge??
and
"For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge (Jer 4:22) -- this refers to people AFTER eating of the tree, so just imagine BEFORE eating.
But it's okay. I'll put that to rest. Still learning, still growing, still love the Scriptures. And Satan deceives. I pray to be Grounded in the Love of Christ to be more than Conquerers. Thanks :)
Eugene
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Jesus taught that sin comes from within us, from our hearts.
Eve sinned before she ate the fruit. She lusted for it, from her heart, when she looked upon it, before she ate.
Ray discusses that point in his 2nd Lake of Fire article, a little ways down from the top.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
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Jesus taught that sin comes from within us, from our hearts.
Eve sinned before she ate the fruit. She lusted for it, from her heart, when she looked upon it, before she ate.
Ray discusses that point in his 2nd Lake of Fire article, a little ways down from the top.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
oh that's a principle that i understood a while ago. I'm still not seeing they had knowledge before they ate of the tree. Ray pointed out they couldnt obey for, "oh that they had such an heart, to FEAR me..." (Deu 5:29). "fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" - they clearly did not have the fear of God, but were foolish - "fools to despise wisdom and instruction (...you shall NOT eat)" (Prov 1:7). And it's "out of the heart that proceeds....EVIL THOUGHTS (not knowledge), FOOLISHNESS" (Mark 7:22). she truly did not..."...understand what she was saying, or what she was confidently affirming" (1Tim 1:7). At least i see it from among the many scriptures i presented. but aye, it's okay. The point is, the tree was vital for man to become the image of God. truly, For the eons, the tree of Life will be available to the nations :) :) (Rev 22:2)
and i'm just realizing; i QUOTED from that paper in my comment above ;). i was reading that today and that's what brought this understanding to my mind. but Ray said nothing of prior knowledge. He hinted the opposite, "To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE"
Eugene
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i found this interesting too...they didnt even KNOW they were naked.....
"And (1) the eyes of them both were opened, and (2) they knew that they were naked (Gen 3:7)
"and knowest not that thou art... blind, and naked" (Rev 3:17)
That's interesting to know and perceive a Law of God but don't even know you're naked. So if they were naked, they were blind - naked, exposed to tempation (too easy) and blind to what God had said. They didnt know; they were blind and naked. As said, they didnt see till afterwards and they looked back. i just had to share that. like i said, STILL GROWING. In his word
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Eugene, what is your point?
First you argue that Satan told some truth, even though he is referred to as the father of lies.
Then Eve was unable to know good/evil even though she specifically told Satan what was good and not good to do in the garden.
Then after every comment, you make a point about being open to learning yet you are obviously not. You seem to want to explain your revelations and only want to hear someone agree with you. That's not how this forum works and also the key reason we don't allow teaching on the forum.
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Eugene, what is your point?
First you argue that Satan told some truth, even though he is referred to as the father of lies.
Then Eve was unable to know good/evil even though she specifically told Satan what was good and not good to do in the garden.
Then after every comment, you make a point about being open to learning yet you are obviously not. You seem to want to explain your revelations and only want to hear someone agree with you. That's not how this forum works and also the key reason we don't allow teaching on the forum.
wow. whether you believe it or not; i take EVERYTHING everyone says and apply it to my understanding. isnt a "forum discussion" the point to SHARE thoughts? so we cant share thoughts? by all means, judge them and I will learn; AND I DO LEARN....but that was uncalled for. So the devil also lied when he quoted Psalm 91:11-12 in Luke 4:10-11??? No, but Jesus rebuked him telling him, "thou shalt not TEMPT the Lord..." not lie to him. Submitting is not a problem though after this
Eugene
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Did they "know" they were naked in Gen 2:25? There was nothing wrong with their eyes. They could look at themselves and each other and "see". They were unashamed. Why? Because they didn't know any better or different. They had no knowledge of good and evil.
Did Eve "know" about the tree? It was planted in the middle of the garden so they would not miss it, and it looked awful good to them. Did Eve come to know about the commandment? Yes, she did. Did she know what was in her heart to do? Yes, "And seeing is the woman that the tree is good for food, and that it brings a yearning to the eyes, and is to be coveted as the tree to make one intelligent." Lust of the Flesh, Lust of the Eye, the Pride of Life. So we can't say Eve knew nothing. She knew the tree, she knew the commandment, she knew what was in her heart to do. When the temptation came, she did what was in her heart to do.
The CLV translates Gen 3:7 And unclosing are their eyes, they two, and knowing are they that they are naked. And sewing are they fig leaves and making for themselves girdle skirts." No longer not knowing better or different. No longer 'unashamed'. The knowledge of Good and Evil.
The LORD removes them from the garden and tells them what life is going to be like. That is the EXPERIENCE of evil "whereby to humble" them, all the days of their lives. There is also the knowledge of Good in the fruit of the tree. It doesn't come without the knowledge of evil. Niether does the knowledge of evil come without the knowledge of good. It takes both.
One more thought that might be helpful, assuming any of the above has been. :-\ God doesn't 'allow' evil, or 'turn evil into good', but INTENDS evil FOR good. He's never thwarted, and always wins in the end.
One more more thought. It's 'preacher talk' to always equate obedience and disobedience with good and evil. They are not always the same things. GOOD and EVIL are the big picture. Eve disobeyed and that is an evil, but "...grief and the groaning of your pregnancy..." is an evil, but not disobedience.
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Did they "know" they were naked in Gen 2:25? There was nothing wrong with their eyes. They could look at themselves and each other and "see". They were unashamed. Why? Because they didn't know any better or different. They had no knowledge of good and evil.
Did Eve "know" about the tree? It was planted in the middle of the garden so they would not miss it, and it looked awful good to them. Did Eve know about the commandment? Yes, she did. Did she know what was in her heart to do? Yes, "And seeing is the woman that the tree is good for food, and that it brings a yearning to the eyes, and is to be coveted as the tree to make one intelligent." Lust of the Flesh, Lust of the Eye, the Pride of Life. So we can't say Eve knew nothing. She knew the tree, she knew the commandment, she knew what was in her heart to do. When the temptation came, she did what was in her heart to do.
The CLV translates Gen 3:7 And unclosing are their eyes, they two, and knowing are they that they are naked. And sewing are they fig leaves and making for themselves girdle skirts." No longer not knowing better or different. No longer 'unashamed'. The knowledge of Good and Evil.
The LORD removes them from the garden and tells them what life is going to be like. That is the EXPERIENCE of evil "whereby to humble" them, all the days of their lives. There is also the knowledge of Good in the fruit of the tree. It doesn't come without the knowledge of evil. Niether does the knowledge of evil come without the knowledge of good. It takes both.
One more thought that might be helpful, assuming any of the above has been. :-\ God doesn't 'allow' evil, or 'turn evil into good', but INTENDS evil FOR good. He's never thwarted, and always wins in the end.
VERY HELPFUL DAVE. thanks for the clarity. I build and grow to a fuller understanding of the scriptures.
and oh the wisdom we need to see that God "intends evil for Good"! Thanks for that, i will keep that in prayer. That's a hard saying! ;D ;D ;D. yet True
thanks Dave
Eugene
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Everybody
For whatever it's worth coming from me, Dave that was phenomenal.
God gives us this day our daily bread, etc. Let's do that again soon.
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Is there a really difference between what Marques and Dave said?
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"There was nothing wrong with their eyes. They could look at themselves and each other and "see". "
"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come in this world, they they which see not, might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, ARE WE BLIND ALSO? Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, you should have not sin: but now you say WE see; therefore your sin remains." (John 9:39-41)
So were they "literally" blind? no. Where they spiritually and figuratively blind? surely. Was Jesus going to "literally" blind people? of course not
idk, Ray also taught that the scriptures were a parable. And Ray quoted Rev 3:17 with Adam and Eve. that they were "naked, blind and wretched". So Jesus tells the Laodicens to "anoint their eyes...that the may SEE" - so they were "literally" blind?
"Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." (Isa 6:9). So wouldnt they only "perceive" till after their eyes were opened? so that would make them spiritually blind right?
I was following Ray on the "blind" deal.
and yes there was a difference. and im guessing I contradicted all the scriptures i quoted?
aye, another learning experience ;)
Eugene
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"There was nothing wrong with their eyes. They could look at themselves and each other and "see". "
"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come in this world, they they which see not, might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, ARE WE BLIND ALSO? Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, you should have not sin: but now you say WE SEE; therefore your sin remains." (John 9:39-41)
So were they "literally" blind? no. Where they spiritually and figuratively blind? surely. Was Jesus going to "literally" blind people? of course not
idk, Ray also taught that the scriptures were a parable. And Ray quoted Rev 3:17 with Adam and Eve. that they were "naked, blind and wretched". So Jesus tells the Laodicens to "anoint their eyes...that the may SEE" - so they were "literally" blind?
"Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." (Isa 6:9). So wouldnt they only "perceive" till after their eyes were opened? so that would make them spiritually blind right?
I was following Ray on the "blind" deal.
and yes there was a difference. and im guessing I contradicted all the scriptures i quoted?
aye, another learning experience ;)
Eugene
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"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come in this world, they they which see not, might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
You're pretty sharp, Eugene.
I imagine they knew they were lacking something (indeed they were lacking).
She looked and saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, so she knew that. Why would she desire to be made wise if she thought she had wisdom? Obviously she didn't have wisdom, because she didn't see the evil to outcome. Dave In Tenn already established that much.
Did she know Satan was tricking her with the lie? No. Did she know that she was being deceived by Satan's lie? No. And that's what we all have to learn. Before our eyes are truly opened, we all know just enough to be dangerous.
Satan tricks (cheated) us with lies, not the truth. And, people can't be "tempted" with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Trick: a crafty or underhanded [crafty?] device, maneuver , or stratagem intended to deceive or cheat; artifice; ruse.
Satan doesn't like the truth and that's why the truth was never in him--not that he has never heard the truth. Eve wasn't just tempted, she was thoroughly tricked and cheated. She basically ate brownies laced with a little poo poo. (Reference Craig's "brownie ingredients" analogy.) All by design. All for a grander purpose. Satan meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
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Wow. That was all good. Thanks. I understand now that they did have knowledge before they ate.
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Jesus said His words were Spirit and Life. Ray said, if we don't see ourselves in the Old Testament, we have no idea about the depths of our own carnality.
Let's not get so caught up examining the trees (reading all the words) that we fail to see the forest (Spirit and Life).
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Thanks Gina and to that Dave 8) 8)
Im seeking to make it past the flaming sword to the tree of Life! to Judgment I goooooo ;D
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One more more thought. It's 'preacher talk' to always equate obedience and disobedience with good and evil. They are not always the same things. GOOD and EVIL are the big picture. Eve disobeyed and that is an evil, but "...grief and the groaning of your pregnancy..." is an evil, but not disobedience.
[/quote]
nice!
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So my paying attention to the words is getting me YET again. But this is coming out of the Scriptures. So reading through Genesis 3, i stumbled across this and it FINALLY caught my eye.
"and the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die (obvious lie): for God does know that in the day ye eat thereof, then (1)your eyes shall be opened, and (2) ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:4-5) and the rest was history. YET, this actually came to pass - what Satan said would happen
(1) "and the eyes of them both WERE opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Gen 3:7)
(2) "and Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live to the age" (Gen 3:22)
So it seems to me that Satan told truth because what he said actually came to pass. It actually happened for one, and God attested to the other.
would I be on track to conclude that Satan started with a LIE and exhibited a truth to BEGUILE or deceive?? I feel like i discovered a tool to be aware of his "Travesty" and "trickery" ways (Ephesians 6:11). Trying not "to be ignorant of his device" (2 Corinthians 2:11). I've always been programmed to know Satan is only lies but here he actually told some truth; but lied to deceive with truth (???) yea, looks like a square circle :D. well, wondering if anyone else sees that. Thanks
Eugene
Well, let's pay a little MORE attetion to the words;
Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.
Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."
Just something I was thinking about when I was looking over your question.
Satan lies, no doubt about it, but how deceitful is he? Meh... Deceitful alright, I Just don't know HOW FAR he goes.
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You're welcome, Eugene. :) (Not sure how or if you made sense of my last disjointed reply but it made sense to me... at the time.)
This has been another good thread. I learned a lot more than I thought I would. I like to personally thank everyone who contributed.
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About them "become as god" or becoming or whatever translation we choose (Youngs, concordat, Rotherham, kjv) does this have anything to do with
Psalms 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
John 10:34-35
Jesus answered them, “ Is it not written in your law, “I said, ‘You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?? Again, correct me according to these scriptures please - these are what I confide in
Eugene
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About them "become as god" or becoming or whatever translation we choose (Youngs, concordat, Rotherham, kjv) does this have anything to do with
Psalms 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
John 10:34-35
Jesus answered them, “ Is it not written in your law, “I said, ‘You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?? Again, correct me according to these scriptures please - these are what I confide in
Eugene
Yep
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That's a great question.
Satan was still leading Eve to believe a lie, and I believe she thought she would then be able to be independent of God. Satan convinced her that God was holding out on her and this probably made her a little more than angry with God. Can't you just imagine?
It's as Ray said: God puts us in situations to prove to US who we are. It's not that He doesn't know what we'll do or what we are.
Gods, shmods. We're lumps of clay. That's the part Satan left out. He lied by omission.
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About them "become as god" or becoming or whatever translation we choose (Youngs, concordat, Rotherham, kjv) does this have anything to do with
Psalms 82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
John 10:34-35
Jesus answered them, “ Is it not written in your law, “I said, ‘You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?? Again, correct me according to these scriptures please - these are what I confide in
Eugene
I still think you're not paying attention to the words;
Become AS GOD.
Meaning to be like HIM, not be "gods." There are many "gods" but there is only ONE GOD. There is only ONE like HIM.
Being a god and being AS GOD are two different things.
Does that make sense?
If that wasn't your question, I apologize. That's what I understood as you asking/being confused about.
God bless,
Alex
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Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.
Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."
Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"
Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.
So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom
Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world - So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;
1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway
Eugene
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Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.
Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."
Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"
Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.
So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom
Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world - So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;
1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway
Eugene
Perhaps "NOTHING" was a bit of a strong word. I suppose, far off, from being "AS GOD" is perhaps more accurate. Even then, their knowledge of Good and evil, if it was even that at that very specific moment in time, was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil. So either way you look at it, they were not "As God" in that moment of time. That period of time, that day, that YOM. Whatever you would like to believe it to mean.
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Also, we know the word "Eternal" does not mean eternal because we know God did not give us ETERNAL LIFE, He gave us IMMORTALITY and AIONION LIFE [Age-Abiding Life] (For the elect) however, IMMORTALITY does NOT mean eternal life. It means "never to die," "never to be dying," "DEATH LESS NESS," which equates to being able to live forevermore but let's not confuse here what God has "given" us.
Out of context? I don't know.
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Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.
Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."
Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"
Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.
So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom
Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world - So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;
1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway
Eugene
Perhaps "NOTHING" was a bit of a strong word. I suppose, far off, from being "AS GOD" is perhaps more accurate. Even then, their knowledge of Good and evil, if it was even that at that very specific moment in time, was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil. So either way you look at it, they were not "As God" in that moment of time. That period of time, that day, that YOM. Whatever you would like to believe it to mean.
Wow. Excuse me, but I got that teaching from ray and yom is yom. And again, adding an assumption; "..was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil" - of course, scripture says, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways". So man doesn't have knowledge of good and evil yet? .... in THAT yom?....arent we all in Adam?
So, when will man have the "knowledge" of good and evil? In the next eon? Or is the next eon for judgment of good and evil? Seriously seeking an scriptural understanding.
And I said "Aionion Life in my post. I know the teaching of eternal. That was in the tree of life "...put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and LIVE OLAM (to the age, Aoinion, and never to die)..." (Gen 3:22).
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Satan says "IN THE DAY you eat thereof..." Meaning, that day that they eat this fruit, upon that very day, they will be as GOD is.
Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."
Okay: this thought jogged in my head when I wasn't even thinking about it. Isn't that thought "adding" a meaning to the Hebrew word for day, which is YOM??? And after listening to Ray give a very lengthy new SCRIPTURAL meaning to the word Yom - it's not a "day", or that very day: but time period, could be moment, could be season, or years. And you said NOTHING like God. God said they were becoming like God, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL IN THAT YOM. And which "yom" we're still in. For we know good and evil. So perhaps man would eat from the tree of life and live to the eons, he blocked it off - THIS EON. So the next eon is when we partake of that life: Aoinion Life. "Since it is APPOINTED for man to die" and "in Adam all die"
Psalms 82:6-7
I have said, Ye are gods (and scripture can't be broken);
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.
So from Rays teaching on the Hebrew for day; we can't add a meaning to it. That's like saying on the 4th day, that very day, he created the sun. No, it's yom
Jus throwin that thought in, staying faithful to Rays teaching on yom. I just see the fact Satan said about theyre eyes opening and becoming as god, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL (he didn't say like god, being all powerful and all knowing) and God said it happened and will happen; the way he planned. . Since it was appointed for man to die, for the reason the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world - So he blocked the tree of life which one would eat and live to the eons;
1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Now if I took those scriptures out of context, please show it to me and I'll repent of it. I just saw the use of the SAME Hebrew word for day, yom, and staying faithful to scripture is critical. Seeing that it's all a parable anyway
Eugene
Perhaps "NOTHING" was a bit of a strong word. I suppose, far off, from being "AS GOD" is perhaps more accurate. Even then, their knowledge of Good and evil, if it was even that at that very specific moment in time, was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil. So either way you look at it, they were not "As God" in that moment of time. That period of time, that day, that YOM. Whatever you would like to believe it to mean.
Wow. Excuse me, but I got that teaching from ray and yom is yom. And again, adding an assumption; "..was FAR OFF from God's knowledge of good and evil" - of course, scripture says, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways". So man doesn't have knowledge of good and evil yet? .... in THAT yom?....arent we all in Adam?
So, when will man have the "knowledge" of good and evil? In the next eon? Or is the next eon for judgment of good and evil? Seriously seeking an scriptural understanding.
And I said "Aionion Life in my post. I know the teaching of eternal. That was in the tree of life "...put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and LIVE OLAM (to the age, Aoinion, and never to die)..." (Gen 3:22).
My dear friend,
Calm down, I was not attacking you in anyway. There is no need to get defensive. I was merely emphasizing the point that regardless of how long one considers YOM to be in time, the point is still the same. Adam and Eve's understanding of what good and evil was, after having eatin the tree of knowledge of good and evil, hardly equated to the knowledge that God has of these things. Furthermore, this would make satan's statement that IN THAT DAY, they would be as God, a lie.
It appears I have offended you and for that I apologize. It was not the intent. I believe perhaps a mis understanding of the point I was making has occurred.
Also, I'm not sure where you got "man's" knowledge of good and evil. I was referring to Adam and Eve's knowledge of good and evil, in that "YOM", that point in time. I also did not say they did not have any, but rather, what they did have, paled in comparison to what God has and thus, makes them far off from being like God in that sense.
It seems most of your reply is almost entirely nothing to do with what I posted. I suggest perhaps re-reading my post. I never mentioned mankind in that post anywhere, I also never attacked you, nor did I say they didn't have ANY knowledge but rather that it was far off from God's knowledge.
Not sure what else to say to you. Calm down? You're building your entirely reply on things that were not said and making an argument of it.
God bless,
Alex
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Spiritual thumbs up Brother ;D
It is "all good". Seriously, everything is fine ;). Cleared up in Love .
Eugene
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Great thread. Bottom line?
Satan used some truth along with a lie to tempt Eve.
According to Ray and the Scriptures Adam and Eve did not have any knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit.
They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
Eve's lusts caused her to break the one commandment and according to Ray, Adam probably did not want to lose Eve and so also partook. Adam, at least at that time, would have loved Eve more than God which makes sense to me.
Paul
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Is there a really difference between what Marques and Dave said?
Sorry, John. I missed this the first go-round. No, I don't think there is really any difference. Marques would have to answer for himself. We both tried to answer a theological question with a practical (that is to say Spiritual) answer. It's asking too much for two people to have exactly the same thoughts.
Eve had a knowledge of good and evil before she ate. She had the commandment and she had her lusts. These were in conflict. That alone is 'a knowledge of good and evil'. Isn't that the way both 'good' and 'evil' work? "Out of the heart...whether good or evil"?
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http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
SIN BEGINS IN THE HEART
Man’s mind is not the birthplace of sin. And certainly man’s will is not the originator of sin. God did NOT say: "O that there were such a WILL in them..." (Deut. 5:29). If we will just believe, our Lord tells us plainly where sin originates:
"And Jesus said, Are ye [all of you] also yet without understanding?
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.
For out of THE HEART proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man" (Matt. 15:16-20).
Need I remind any that all of the above thoughts and deeds are sin?
So what pray tell does all this stuff have to do with Mother Eve’s sin in the garden? A lot—everything. The Apostle John classifies all sins into just three categories under one heading.
LOVE NOT THE WORLD—THREE CATEGORIES OF SIN
"Love NOT the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father IS NOT IN HIM. For [for means ‘because’] ALL that is in the world,
the lust of the FLESH,
the lust of the EYES,
and the pride of LIFE,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever" (I John 2:15-17).
Notice that "…ALL that is in the world…"—all the sins of the world, have their origin in one of these three categories of sin that proceeds "out of THE HEART." Not out of the "will" or out of the "mind," but "out of THE HEART." The "will" and the "mind" are subject to the "heart," and not the other way around. The heart is not subject to the will, neither is the heart subject to the mind, but rather both of these are subject to the birthplace of all human functions—the HEART!
Simply and unarguably, Jesus states as a fact, that all evil thoughts and sins proceed OUT OF THE HEART.
Now, with all that said, let’s prove once and for all that Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:
"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?
"CAUSE AND EFFECT"—THE FIRST EDICT OF THE UNIVERSE
Let me interject a few thoughts here before we go on. Science has never found an "effect" anywhere in the universe for which they believe there was not first a "cause." I mean, how could it be otherwise?
What is there anywhere, that can happen, come into existence, display an effect, for which there was absolutely NO CAUSE?
Why is it then that most of humanity believes that they can think thoughts that they themselves brought into existence WITHOUT ANY CAUSE? Why would anyone think such a thing? Well, for one thing, they are not usually, consciously aware of the cause. Therefore, they deceive themselves into believing that their thoughts HAD NO CAUSE!
But since when must the cause of an effect be visible or perceivable in order to be accepted? I can witness the tremendous effects and power of electricity, and yet I have never seen electricity. I see the effects and power of the wind, and yet I have never seen the wind. We can also see things and not feel them. I can see the sky, but I can’t feel the sky. We can also hear sounds, but we can’t see sounds. The rays of the sun burn our skin, but we can’t see the actual rays that burn us. We can smell things that we cannot see, hear, or feel. We can’t see taste.
Then why should it seem strange to us that we can have thoughts without seeing, feeling, hearing, or smelling the CAUSE of those thoughts. It is amazing just how deceiving this doctrine of free will is when we consider that most scientists accept free will as a fact, yet they would never in a million years accept anything else in the universe as coming into existence without a cause!
Psychiatrists and psychologists look for every conceivable CAUSE of mental diseases, personality disorders, and a plethora of behavioral dysfunctions associated with the thinking of the mentally challenged. Try to convince even one of them that these disorders have absolutely no cause whatsoever, and see how they will look at you with a cocked head. But then suggest to these same experts if indeed all of these malfunctioning thought patterns do have a cause, then just maybe all of our properly functioning and socially acceptable thoughts, ALSO HAVE CAUSES. And they will AGAIN look at you with a cocked head of incredulity! Does anyone see a CONTRADICTION in all this free will philosophy?
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO UN-RING A BELL
It has been wisely stated, that once a bell has been rung, it can never be UN-RUNG. And this axiom is also true for our thoughts and everything else in the universe that was the effect of some cause. Once we are CAUSED to have a particular thought, it is not even in the realm of possibility for that thought to never have occurred. IT HAD TO OCCUR. Once anything CAUSES something, the effect of that cause could never have been otherwise. The very fact that everything in the history of the universe and the history of the human race had a cause is proof positive that this same history could never have been different.
Whatever HAS HAPPENED, HAD TO HAPPEN. The CAUSES of all happenings, MADE all of the effects come into existence. Nothing that has a cause can ever be stopped, for if the cause could be stopped, the effect would have never happened, and we would not have the existence of any such cause to even be talking about in the first place. BUT ALL THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED, HAVE HAPPENED! This is not rocket science. No one can UN-RING a bell.
Now then, if ALL effects are the result of "something," namely a "cause," bringing about the effect, what brings about the "cause" OF the "effect?"
Thank God! I thought no one would ask. Answer? Laws! Laws cause effects. Laws cause thunderstorms. Laws cause life. Laws cause death. LAWS CAUSE EVERYTHING!
But let’s keep this thing going: Who or what causes "laws?" I can see I’ve got to get up pretty early in the morning to keep ahead of this group of readers—just fooling with you. Seriously, this is a deep question that deserves an answer, but the answer is not one that most want to hear. They prefer the superiority of man creating his own thoughts, actions, and theories a whole lot better. So what causes laws? Actually it is not a what, but a Who
GOD CAUSES LAWS
Maybe you are saying, "Well I knew that." Oh really? Then why do you still believe in UNCAUSED human free will? They are not compatible you know? God can’t be steering this creation in one direction while five and a half BILLION humans are steering it in another direction. Which direction WILL IT GO? If it goes in man’s direction, then God is not in control of its direction. And if it goes in God’s direction, THEN MAN HAS NO FREE WILL TO MAKE IT GO IN HIS DESIRED CONTRARY DIRECTION! Guess which one is the Truth? But, "Lord who has believed our report?"
"In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1).
Man can "create" nothing—not even a thought.
"Through faith we understand that the worlds [ages] were framed [prepared] by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear [are visible]" (Heb. 11:3).
Invisible things are nonetheless REAL.
Now for maybe the most profound and all-encompassing statements in all Scripture:
"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [‘obtained’ not ‘earned’] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS [EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).
BACK TO MOTHER EVE AGAIN
Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:
"Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?
Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with.
Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.
Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.
Now for the "sixty-four thousand dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change or mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN. Am I going too fast for anyone?
"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED [Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).
Where does anyone see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE?
WHAT CAUSED EVE TO SIN WILLINGLY?
Did Eve herself think that she "freely" willed to sin WITHOUT A CAUSE?
"And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that you have done? And the woman said [Yes, just what did ‘the woman say?’ Did she say that she "freely willed" to commit this sin? Did she say it was her and all her and nothing but her that did this? Or did she say…], The SERPENT BEGUILED ME… [and BECAUSE the serpent beguiled or deceived her, we now have a CAUSE], and I did eat" (Gen. 3:13).
And what did God have to save about all this blame casting on Eve’s part? Did God say something like this:
"Oh really, Eve? Yah right, go ahead, try and blame it on THE SERPENT! No, Eve, you ‘FREELY’ willed by your own ‘FREE MORAL AGENCY’ which I gave to you and which is free from ALL CAUSALITY AND BLAME CASTING, to do this thing ON YOUR OWN."
Is that what God said? Let’s read it:
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, because YOU HAVE DONE THIS, you are cursed above all cattle…" (Verse 14).
There it is. God’s Own answer. But will we accept God’s answer? For most, probably not.
God plainly said that it was the serpent who "has done this." Eve said it was the serpent that deceived her and God Himself also conceded that it was the serpent that "HAS DONE THIS." That was the CAUSE, and that was the reason for the serpent’s punishment.
WHAT CAUSED ADAM TO SIN WILLINGLY?
How about Adam? Does he fair any better than his wife? Did Adam eat the forbidden fruit and sin by his OWN ‘FREE’ WILL? Or do the Scriptures tell us that he too was CAUSED to have his will do what he did?
"And the man said, THE WOMAN whom You gave to be with me, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, and I did eat" (Ver. 12).
And again, did God say something like" "Oh sure, Adam, blame it on your WIFE! You know that you ‘freely’ without any outside cause whatsoever, decided on your own to eat the fruit." Is that what God intonated to Adam? Let’s read it:
"And unto Adam He said, Because [‘because’—here is the real CAUSE] YOU HAVE HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten of the tree …" (Ver. 17).
Does anyone see here where God says, "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of our OWN ‘FREE’ WILL, and have eaten of the true…?" Well? No, before Adam "willed" (and NOT FREELY), but willed to eat of this fruit, his heart was influenced to do something that it already had all the potential in the world of doing. Namely, disobeying His God and Maker. And what was that? HIS WIFE’S VOICE. And at THAT point in the process, Adam began to "will" this act, and his mind formulated the actual physical action of doing the eating.
You see, Adam was willing to die for his new bride, just as Jesus was willing to die for His bride, the church.
God doesn’t even hint that Adam did what he did "freely." God Himself admits that the CAUSE was "the VOICE OF YOUR WIFE."
I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.
Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone?
IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART
ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.
We read in Jer. 17:9:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."
God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."
The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.
Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.
Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.
The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,
Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,
Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.
The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 we read this:
"And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Why did Adam sin if he was NOT deceived as his wife was? Again, the answer goes back to THE HEART.
Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife. Notice what He said to God:
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).
Isn’t that interesting. Adam did not say: "The woman whom you gave TO ME." Or, "The woman whom you gave FOR ME." But rather, "The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME." Adam reminded God that He created Eve to be ‘WITH’ him, not apart from him. And if Adam had obeyed God, whereas his wife did not, he feared being SEPARATED from Eve. And so he also ate of the fruit and sinned, not because he was deceived as Eve was, but because he loved her in his heart so much that he couldn’t bear the thought of not being "WITH" her.
And so, did Adam "freely" WITHOUT A CAUSE choose to eat the forbidden fruit? What nonsense. Adam had the BIGGEST REASON in the world that CAUSED him to sin and remain with his wife!
So if you are looking for "free" will in the Garden at the time of our first parents' creation, forget it, 'cause it ain’t there!
We have to believe the Scriptures!
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
and for all your arguments.........
Blame it to the serpent beacause it is the cause!!!!!!! :) :) ;D
kidding aside;
There is no truth in him, Satan. I do believe that it is necessary for Adam and eve to know the good and evil, and that is what God planned!
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Great thread. Bottom line?
Satan lied along with telling some truth to tempt Eve. (Gen 3:4/5) As verse 22 verifies the truth.
According to the Scriptures Adam and Eve did NOT have any knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit.
They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
Satan's beguiling along with Eve's lusts CAUSED her to break the one commandment and Adam loved his wife and was willing to die for her and so also partook.
Paul
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Paul according to Rays teachings Adam and Eve did have knowledge. They had to partake of the forbidden fruit, that is how God is still making us from their sin in the beginning. Giving them more knowledge of both good and evil. As Ray would say you have to read ALL the words. Maybe someone will put up the link for you on this.
Greg
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http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer
Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!
If they know anything before, they would have a contrast between good and evil. Experiencing evil able them to distinguish between good and bad.
Adam and Eve may not be happy in their life in the garden if they would not experienced evil, there is no contrast between good and evil, it's so boring indeed! ;)
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One aspect I would like to bring up is that Adam and Eve from the beginning had access to the Tree of Life (the One who would become Jesus Christ). We understand that God talked with them and "walked" in the garden, so it seems they had been 'partaking' of the Tree of Life for a period of time since they were created, they were learning from Him. They were being taught by God Himself how to "Work" the ground... how else would they have learned this new way of life? So I think there was a time when they may have been protected or kept away from the rest of the world (before they partook of the tree of life), while they were learning what they needed to know.
So when the time came for them to move on into the experiences of good and evil (from the world around them) well it was then that Satan entered the picture to draw Eve and Adam with her to the tree of good and evil.
mercy, peace and peace
Kat
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http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer
Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!
If they know anything before, they would have a contrast between good and evil. Experiencing evil able them to distinguish between good and bad.
Adam and Eve may not be happy in their life in the garden if they would not experienced evil, there is no contrast between good and evil, it's so boring indeed! ;)
Exactly! (I hate being bored.) They wouldn't even be able to say things like, Wow, the Tree of Life is Awesome! It's Perfect!
Without anything bad to compare it to they'd just be like,
Oh, yeah .... the Tree of Life - how about that. Ho hum. Welp, guess I'll get back to planting those yummy cukes in the "garden."
Oh, look hon, we got a good crop again this year.
Oh Adam, look at those beautiful roses. Yeah babe, they smell good.
And God would be like,
Me oh My, The scene is dull!! Satan, you go down there....I need them to put a little more life in their dying.
;D
It's like this: Christendom says that God doesn't want robots. But what the freak do they think Adam and Eve would ultimately be if God never planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden?! They'd seriously have no choice whatsoever, see? Hence, no free will!
So in essence, Christendom likes the fact that God did not give man a fabled free will (to borrow from Ray).
They just don't know it. Yet....
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They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
Here is an email reply from Ray that may help in our understanding of this matter:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3702.msg27912.html#msg27912
COMMENT: Why DIDN'T Adam and Eve eat of the "tree of life" first? If they were "innocent" ['not experienced or worldly; naive'--American Heritage Dictionary], why would they choose to sin and eat the forbidden fruit. What was it about their nature that purposely chose sin over righteouness; disobedience over obedience; death over life? What? How can "innocence" CHOOSE EVIL? Why didn't their "innocence" CHOOSE GOOD? Ah, did you catch that? Did you miss it? What was it that Eve chose? Did she choose EVIL or did she choose GOOD? She chose BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!! "Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!! I don't believe there is a theologian on earth that understands this enigma!
You are also wrong in suggesting that sin did not come into the garden until Eve actually ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT. Not true. Let's read it if you haven't read my "lake of fire" series: "And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh--this is SIN], and that it was pleasant to THE EYES [lust of the eyes--this is SIN], and a tree to be desired to MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life--this is SIN]....." (Gen. 3:6). Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD B-E-F-O-R-E SHE EVER ATE OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT. "For ALL that is in the world [A-L-L the sins of the world come under these three categories], THE lust of the flesh, AND THE lust of the eyes, AND THE pride of life, IS NOT OF THE fATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD" (I John 2:15).
"For the creature [Adam and Eve and all their descendants] was MADE [by GOD] subject to VANITY [Margin: 'futility--failure'], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected the same in HOPE" (Rom. 8:20).
Your whole premise is unscriptural.
God be with you,
Ray
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Did you miss it? What was it that Eve chose? Did she choose EVIL or did she choose GOOD? She chose BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!! "Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!! I don't believe there is a theologian on earth that understands this enigma!
L Ray Smith ~ courtesy Rene, previous post.
Did you miss it.... is the question.
How can anyone NOT miss it, being that we are all subject to vainity, and first the natural then the spiritual. So we HAVE to miss it ~ No one can not NOT miss it, for we have all sinned. Eve chose, she chose BOTH, good AND evil that are BOTH in the same fruit.
So, the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
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They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
Here is an email reply from Ray that may help in our understanding of this matter:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3702.msg27912.html#msg27912
COMMENT: Why DIDN'T Adam and Eve eat of the "tree of life" first? If they were "innocent" ['not experienced or worldly; naive'--American Heritage Dictionary], why would they choose to sin and eat the forbidden fruit. What was it about their nature that purposely chose sin over righteouness; disobedience over obedience; death over life? What? How can "innocence" CHOOSE EVIL? Why didn't their "innocence" CHOOSE GOOD? Ah, did you catch that? Did you miss it? What was it that Eve chose? Did she choose EVIL or did she choose GOOD? She chose BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!! "Good AND evil" were both in THE SAME FRUIT!! I don't believe there is a theologian on earth that understands this enigma!
You are also wrong in suggesting that sin did not come into the garden until Eve actually ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT. Not true. Let's read it if you haven't read my "lake of fire" series: "And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh--this is SIN], and that it was pleasant to THE EYES [lust of the eyes--this is SIN], and a tree to be desired to MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life--this is SIN]....." (Gen. 3:6). Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD B-E-F-O-R-E SHE EVER ATE OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT. "For ALL that is in the world [A-L-L the sins of the world come under these three categories], THE lust of the flesh, AND THE lust of the eyes, AND THE pride of life, IS NOT OF THE fATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD" (I John 2:15).
"For the creature [Adam and Eve and all their descendants] was MADE [by GOD] subject to VANITY [Margin: 'futility--failure'], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected the same in HOPE" (Rom. 8:20).
Your whole premise is unscriptural.
God be with you,
Ray
Great reminder Rene. Thank you for sharing this again.
The heart was created exceedingly weak... So true!
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We know from Gen 3:22 that God has knowledge of good and evil.
Where did God get this knowledge, especially knowledge of evil?
I know Ray has discussed this here: http://bible-truths.com/video/WhereGodsKnowledgeL.wmv
But I wonder if this is the entire source of His acquisition of such knowledge.
I don't want to start a grand philosophical inquiry. But humanity is learning of good and evil by experience, by eating fruit from this tree that combines good and evil---we can't get one without the other.
Where did God get this knowledge---by experience too? We know the verse in Isaiah, which says God created evil. He had to know it before He created it. I bet that will be one interesting story. There is so much we don't know.
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In WISDOM, not in the beginning....IN WISDOM God Created....Prov 4 :7 Wisdom is the principle thing.
Knowledge is not the principle thing....
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Amen, Deb. That's right.
If I might add just a couple things...Adam surely had knowledge. When God brought him all the animals, he knew what to name them.
Adam also learned that none of those animals would make a good helper meet for him.
When God put Adam and Eve in the garden, God taught them how to till the soil and how to eat. So they knew a lot.
God wised her and Adam up a little right quick didn't He. It's like, Um, hello! I'm naked. And I'm hidinggggg because I don't anyone to see this!
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OK. I've been trying to follow this thread. Here's the gist of what I got. I hope I haven't mis-represented anyone. This is mainly for my benefit to understand what's been said. I'd really appreciate any clarification or addition of something I may have missed out. Thx
Eugene: “…would I be on track to conclude that Satan started with a LIE and exhibited a truth to BEGUILE or deceive?”
Marques: “It was a complete lie on Satan's part.”
Eugene “…but God SAYS EXACTLY what Satan said ...”
Marques: “.. God does not say exactly what Satan says.”
Eugene: “THAT DAY, is the key i missed...”
Joel: “Satan is a liar, and loves to lie on God, using scripture if it is a means to beguile and cause someone to miss the mark in serving God.”
Greg: “… I was always told that a good liar uses 90% truth.”
Micah: “I don't see where "Adam and Eve knew they were not (to) eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil?" …So where did the woman get this knowledge?”
Indiana Bob: “The woman was the responsibility of the man. So she should have gotten the knowledge from "pillow talk" with her husband.”
Eugene: “Ray mentioned that "Ye" refers to "you all" speaking of more than one person. or an irregular pural of thou. so with that in mind...maybe it's something to, "...he (the serpent) said unto the woman". and not to the man….”
Marques: “The Lord confronted Job in Job 38 by asking, rhetorically, who gives counsel without knowledge. That is not like Eve at all.”
Eugene: “I'm still not seeing how they had a "knowledge (perception, sense)" of something - before they partook of the only tree which had that needed knowledge (as Ray said). ..”
JFK: “Eve sinned before she ate the fruit. She lusted for it, from her heart, when she looked upon it, before she ate.”
Eugene: “I'm still not seeing they had knowledge before they ate of the tree. I found this interesting too...they didnt even KNOW they were naked”
Marques: “Eugene, what is your point? You seem to want to explain your revelations and only want to hear someone agree with you.”
Eugene: “..isnt a "forum discussion" the point to SHARE thoughts? so we cant share thoughts? by all means, judge them and I will learn..”
Dave: “…God doesn't 'allow' evil, or 'turn evil into good', but INTENDS evil FOR good.”
Gina: “Satan tricks (cheated) us with lies, not the truth. And, people can't be "tempted" with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth..”
Dave : “Let's not get so caught up examining the trees (reading all the words) that we fail to see the forest (Spirit and Life).”
lilitalienboi16: “Unfortunately for adam and eve, even after eating the fruit, they were NOTHING like God. They are / were becoming like God but they were FAR from "BEING AS GOD."
Eugene: “..So didn't the "become" gods according to scripture?”
Gina: “..We're lumps of clay. That's the part Satan left out. He lied by omission.”
lilitalienboi16: “Being a god and being AS GOD are two different things.”
Eugene: “So, when will man have the "knowledge" of good and evil? In the next eon? Or is the next eon for judgment of good and evil?”
lilitalienboi16: “Adam and Eve's understanding of what good and evil was, after having eatin the tree of knowledge of good and evil, hardly equated to the knowledge that God has of these things. Furthermore, this would make satan's statement that IN THAT DAY, they would be as God, a lie.”
Paul Fisher: “Bottom line. Satan used some truth along with a lie to tempt Eve.”
Santgem: “There is no truth in him, Satan. I do believe that it is necessary for Adam and eve to know the good and evil, and that is what God planned!”
Paul Fisher: “Bottom line. Satan's beguiling along with Eve's lusts CAUSED her to break the one commandment and Adam loved his wife and was willing to die for her and so also partook.”
Greg: “Paul according to Rays teachings Adam and Eve did have knowledge.”
Santgem: “Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense.”
Kat: “So when the time came for them to move on into the experiences of good and evil (from the world around them) well it was then that Satan entered the picture to draw Eve and Adam with her to the tree of good and evil.”
Gina: “…Christendom likes the fact that God did not give man a fabled free will…”
Arcturus: “How can anyone NOT miss it, being that we are all subject to vainity, and first the natural then the spiritual. So we HAVE to miss it ~ No one can not NOT miss it, for we have all sinned. Eve chose, she chose BOTH, good AND evil that are BOTH in the same fruit.”
lilitalienboi16: “The heart was created exceedingly weak.”
JFK: “…humanity is learning of good and evil by experience, by eating fruit from this tree that combines good and evil---we can't get one without the other…There is so much we don't know.”
Arcturus: “Wisdom is the principle thing…Knowledge is not the principle thing....”
Gina: “Adam surely had knowledge.… they knew a lot.”
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Excellent minutes of the Meeting dear Scribe of God, JohnCris ~ ;D
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LOL.... nearly like, Disciple, discipline....
You are quite right John! ~ 8)
The PrincipAl is the CHIEF....as in Wisdom.
The principle is the code, belief, attitude or opinion as in knowledge....
Wisdom is the CHIEF, Knowledge is the Disciple :) even as Christ is the Head!
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Great thread. Bottom line?
Satan lied along with telling some truth to tempt Eve. (Gen 3:4/5) As verse 22 verifies the truth.
("in that day their eyes will be opened" - They were, verse 7. And if their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil that day, they also became as God to know good and evil STARTING THAT DAY. That's the 'some truth' I'm referring to above.)
According to the Scriptures Adam and Eve did NOT have any knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the forbidden fruit.
(I do not say here that Adam and Eve had no knowledge prior to eating the forbidden fruit but that they had NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.)
They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
(That is the only sin they were accountable for because at the time not eating of that tree was the only law. "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20. "for where no law is, there is no transgression." Rom 4:15. "For until the law sin WAS in the world:[Of course Ray is correct - sin WAS in the Garden prior to the eating of the forbidden fruit] but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Rom 5:13. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Rom 7:7. Eve's lusts over the fruit were NOT sins imputed to her but ONLY the sin of breaking the law to not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.)
Satan's beguiling along with Eve's lusts CAUSED her to break the one commandment [law] and Adam loved his wife and was willing to die for her and so also partook.
Paul
Ps. JohnChris, I can't stop laughing every time I read your post... I hope others here also have a sense of humor...
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Hi Paul,
They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
So that sounds like you are saying that unless someone understands/hears the 'law' then they are innocent and there is no sin? We are all born as carnal flesh (accept Jesus Christ) which is "enmity against God," maybe Adam and Eve were not born, but they were certainly carnal flesh from the day of their creation.
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
I think there have been plenty of people who have lived that have never heard the law and I do not believe they will be found guiltless.
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
You put Rom. 5:13 to back up the idea that there was no sin before Adam 'ate the fruit,' but that very verse says "for sin indeed was in the world before the law."
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
v. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the One who was to come.
Adam was a "type" of Christ, the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the church.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
So that in this one particular sin of this particular man, Adam, which God did command he should not comment, was to represent sin of "all," just as Christ was the One and only by which the same "all" sinners can be saved from death.
Rom 5:16 And there is a difference between God's gift and the sin of one man. After the one sin, came the judgment of "Guilty"; but after so many sins, comes the undeserved gift of "Not guilty!"
v. 17 It is true that through the sin of one man death began to rule because of that one man. But how much greater is the result of what was done by the one man, Jesus Christ! All who receive God's abundant grace and are freely put right with him will rule in life through Christ.
v. 18 So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life. (GNB)
This parable of Adam and Eve is so full of symbolism, there is so much in there that speaks to the plan that God has set for all mankind.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Paul,
They had a (one) commandment from God that they broke by eating the forbidden fruit and that was their first sin.
So that sounds like you are saying that unless someone understands/hears the 'law' then they are innocent and there is no sin?
No, I am only saying what I said. No where do I say in my posts above that Adam and Eve were "innocent and there was/is no sin" before they ate the forbidden fruit. In fact, I remind all in my post that "Ray is correct - sin WAS in the Garden PRIOR to the eating of the forbidden fruit". It was just NOT imputed to Adam and Eve. I also mention Eve's lusts, which when conceived brought forth sin, to be imputed, because of the one law broken.
I think there have been plenty of people who have lived that have never heard the law and I do not believe they will be found guiltless.
According to the Scriptures that I mention in my post, IF someone never 'hears' the law in their mortal life, for example - a baby dying shortly after birth - the 'vanity' that child was 'created in' will not be considered sin that will be imputed on the individual, although he or she will still need purging, purifying and refining of that vanity in the second resurrection (a "few stripes" ONLY, otherwise how would he or she ever come to a knowledge of good and evil required to become "as one of Us"?).
You put Rom. 5:13 to back up the idea that there was no sin before Adam 'ate the fruit,' but that very verse says "for sin indeed was in the world before the law."
No I don't. WHY would I use a verse of Scripture that says that sin WAS in the world prior to the law, to "back up the idea that there was no sin before Adam 'ate the fruit'"? I use it to 'back up' the truth that the eating of the forbidden fruit was Adam and Eve's FIRST SIN IMPUTED TO THEM.
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
I actually quote this entire verse in my post while referring to Ray's writings from an earlier post in this thread.
Paul :)
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Hi Paul,
This parable of Adam and Eve...
I'm just curious, did Ray say that this story of Adam and Eve was a parable, or do the Scriptures say this? I'd be ok with that, I just don't recall hearing or reading that.
Thanks,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Okay, I see what you are saying. Here are a couple of places Ray mentions the whole Bible is a parable.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2891.0.html ---------
Hi ray,
Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?
Thanks,
Dave
Dear Dave:
Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell: God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE. Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it? I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!
God be with you,
Ray
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ---------------------
THE BIBLE IS A GIANT PARABLE
Not only is the Bible a giant parable, but, all creation is a giant parable. Is it not real? Oh, it is real all right. But what we see, hear, and feel, in this physical universe, is not the lasting spiritual reality of God’s purpose for creation. In parables, the literalness of the words is but a symbol that stands for something spiritual and grand. The physical words of all parables will pass away, however, the spiritual fulfillment of those physical words will never pass away. This is another marvelous spiritual principal of understanding and wisdom. I have covered this before, but it certain warrants repeating. Paul presents us with this grand parable of creation, life, and the final destiny of the entire universe:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION.
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Christ] was made A QUICKENING [vivifying, living, immortal] SPIRIT
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards that which is SPIRITUAL.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from HEAVEN [the realm of spirit].
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are HEAVENLY.
And as we [all humanity born of physical Adam] have born the image of the earthy, we [all humanity born of spiritual Jesus, the Christ] shall also bear the image of the HEAVENLY [Christ]" (I Cor. 15:41-49).
Can we even begin to comprehend what we have just read? But we are not there as yet. The physical part of this parable is still being played out on this physical stage of the universe. The final curtain of this heavenly play will not come down until all of the Acts have first been performed. And the drama is building as we near the climax.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Wow Eugene
Bet you never thought so much would have come out of your question. What a thread!
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Hi Paul,
Okay, I see what you are saying. Here are a couple of places Ray mentions the whole Bible is a parable.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2891.0.html ---------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Thank you so much Kat! Now I understand the parable thing!
Paul 8)
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PARABLE.........Never ending story...............Until,
God will be All in All!
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Good AND Evil are the SAME Fruit... to embrace this, is to become as children.
The process of, don't touch that flame, don't touch that pretty glowing oven...it will hurt. It looks pretty and it appears interesting but don't go near it and don't touch it because it is hot and it will burn. So we go near and we get burned. That is how to receive wisdom.
The Spirit of God can show us that all we think we know, and whatever knowledge we think we possess, is foolishness. In the Presence of the Spirit of God, no proof of that is necessary. lol
" Be still and Know that I am God" ~ :)
We don't have to prove we are children if we are. And naughty kids, can't keep still! It takes the Spirit of God....to give that gift!
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I just found this from Ray in answer to one of his emails:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7233.0/prev_next,next.html#new
"The first commandments of God to the man and the woman were:
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, [1] Be fruitful, and [2] multiply, and [3] replenish the earth, and [4] subdue it: and [5] have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
There are five commandments alone that came before not eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now then, one of the categories of animals that "move upon the earth" is "serpents." They were specifically COMMANDED to "have DOMINION OVER....serpents..." Eve allowed the serpent to have dominion over HER. She BROKE the commandment of God and SINNED.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Eve was FULLY aware of the fact that she knew full well that it was WRONG to eat of this forbidden fruit. She even stated as much."
So, There were at least 6 laws or commandments in the Garden and NOT "one" as I stated in my prior posts. (My bad.)
Also, the sin of allowing the serpent to have dominion over her would be imputed to her (because of her lusts. Obviously, if you allow a Grizzly to have dominion over you, there's no sin :).) I don't want to suffer from paralysis-of-analysis as Ray says, so I'll stop here. :)
Paul