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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Stevernator on February 06, 2009, 01:14:33 AM
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Hi everyone,
I've been watching some videos on evolution and it seems plausible considering the evidence and also since most scientists accept it at the current time. Do you think that God could have put into place evolution (theistic evolution)? When I think of God I can see Him starting the big bang with the knowledge that galaxies and planets will form including earth and eventually bring life about. I see many processes such as the big bang inflating from a singularity, towards galaxies and planets developing to cells developing, to evolution to babies developing from zygotes to babies developing into mature adults to complex civilizations forming from tribes as something that God could have and be guiding. Basically processes that start from something simple to complex if you can see what I mean. So if the theory of evolution from common descent ( saying that everything alive today has a common ancestor) is true then I see a few possibilities:
The creation story of Adam and Eve is allegorical
Evolution is in the story somewhere
or common descent is not true and creationism or intelligent design is true.
However I have been watching videos lately on youtube and of course I am ignorant in these matters. But it seems that the evidence is compelling so I am trying to learn more and keep an open mind.
I have been very fascinated lately in evolution and astronomy. Ray has pointed out I think that the earth is old and that there may have been humans/humanoids before Adam. Science supports this and I believe there is evidence of humans and entire civilizations before Adam.
Basically I am trying to see how science and the Bible fit together. I am curious and I don't want to stop questioning. I would like to see what you guys think about these things. If you guys disagree with any of these things than I would like to hear what you think and why.
-Steve
PS Also I am not dogmatically saying it is true but I am trying to learn.
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Dear Stevernator,
Both the theory of evolution and creation are pretty deep subjects. I'm really not qualified to answer these types of questions, but I don't want to just leave your question hanging out there without an response. I have spent time in my life also researching various subjects trying to makes sense of it all. From my experience, I just want to give you this heads up. Some scientist and researchers are highly intelligent and excellent speakers. They can be very cunning and crafty at getting you to believe the things they believe. My advice to you as you search is to not just tune in to one particular persons point of view. Rather, Visit multiple sites and resources and take tiny pieces from each one and compare that together with what you believe in your heart. I do know that this world is ever rapidly changing and it requires both man and beast to evolve, or adapt if you will, for survival. From my experiances in life I will never be convinced there is no god. I have a personal relationship with him. From my humble perspective, I think god gave creation the ability to adapt and change. I don't believe that adapt and change gave creation. On a wild tangent, "Which came first? The chicken or the egg?"- Author Unknown On a personal note I know of a book that punches holes in the theory of evolution called "The Collapse Of Evolution" by Scott M. Huse , On the other hand, there is pretty strong evidince out there that supports this theory as well. Just know that no one knows for certain.
With Respect,
Britt
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Thanks for your response Britt. I agree that it is important to make sure the speaker is objective.
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Stevernator,
When you find some plausible evidence of evolution; you will be the holder of
knowledge no one else has. Remember The Theory is all they have, here is what
The Scriptures say:
Isa 34:11 Owls and ravens will take over the land. The LORD will make it a barren waste
again, as it was before the creation.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so
that they are without excuse:
Heb 4:13 There is nothing that can be hid from God; everything in all creation is exposed
and lies open before his eyes. And it is to him that we must all give an account of ourselves.
1Pe 1:20 He had been chosen by God before the creation of the world and was revealed in
these last days for your sake.
You can believe them or believe The Scriptures. I have been where you are now; after 20+ years
of study and research, they still only have a theory.
Jesus Christ is An Historical Person, not a theory; He made statements He backed up with
deeds, not theory. Where is the course on evolution, that Jesus Christ or His Apostles taught.
Here is wisdom:
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the discusser of this eon? Does not God
make stupid the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For since, in fact, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom knew not God,
God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save those who are believing,
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise
in their own craftiness.
george. :)
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Hi Steve,
This is from the 2007 Nashville conference, just though it was something you might want to consider.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ------------
Now here is something good, this Philip Johnson, a law professor, at Berkley wrote ‘Darwin On Trial.’ It’s very good, until you get to where he’s talking about religion. So he’s got his facts down on evolution, better than anybody I’ve ever read. But then we have original sin and we inherit the corruptible nature and God is one person in three. And God created Adam in His image and they were given this great intelligence, knowledge and perfect innocents and purity. And all this written in their hearts. No it wasn’t! But if you want to read it, it’s very good, I just got this a couple of years ago. He has an eye here, because he talks about the eye.
When I first started studying the Bible, 40 years ago, the one thing that struck me about evolution, was the eye. How do you evolve an eye? When did a creature that didn’t have an eye, decide he wanted one? And maybe one of his buddies said, you know if you’re going to go for the eye thing, go for two. But you know they had no mouth either, so he really couldn’t talk... had no brain either. But he said, what do you mean two? His buddy said, you know dept perception, if you’re going to have eyes, you’re going to need two to get this thing called dept perception, it’s really an elusion in the brain, it’s not real.
And that evolved from sea slime? No.
Listen, through mutations only one in a hundred generations, of most animals, produce any kind of mutation. Mutations are usually bad, they are detrimental to the health of the creature. Let’s suppose that once in a while you have a mutation that is of some kind of benefit and in this case we’re going to work on an eye. How many mutations would you have to have, in a row, through evolution, beneficial to start constructing an eye? Well somewhere around a trillion. That is if you had a trillion consecutive mutations, that were all positive and beneficial, and they were all directed to constructing an eye. What are the chances of that? One in a trillion quardrillion trillion. You see what I mean. And that’s every hundredth generation or whatever. How many billion and trillion and quadrillions generations would it take? It would take millions of times longer than the universe was here.
Did the human eye evolve? No, it did not. Every time you look at an eye you know there is a God. Not only does the eye see, the eye doesn’t ‘see’, it’s the brain that sees. What? Yea, you need the eyes, but the brain sees through the eyes, the eye doesn’t see anything. The eye is dumb. Now you have this eye and you have to connect it to a brain that interprets what all this is. And that evolved out of chance? With no intelligence? All you have to know is you have two eyes and that is proof positive, there is a God! That is unequivocal proof, there’s a God. You can’t even begin to imagine your way around that in evolution, there’s no way.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Steve,
I believe most [perhaps all?] the answers to your questions will be found in Ray's latest Nashville Conference, 2008, in which he discusses the Creation and Noah's Flood in vivid detail, using both Science and the Scriptures:
Video and/or Audio:
http://bible-truths.com/video/youngearth.htm
Ray's Notes: [scroll down]
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html
Partial Transcripts of Ray's Audio:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.0.html
Transcripts from Ray's Bible Study after Nashville.. Conference continued:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.0.html
Set a day aside, make some popcorn, and enjoy! I surely did! :D ;)
- Daywalker
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Daywalker's advice is the best to follow, brother.
At the top of Genesis Chapter 1, I've written in my Bible "This doesn't explain the mechanism of Creation. It explains 'What Must I Do To Be Saved?'" I wrote that long ago, before discovering BT, but I think it still holds true and aligns with Ray's teachings.
I will follow Daywalker's advice myself, as I've only listened to a fraction of that material so far.
Steve
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MusicMan's keys to qualifying statements of belief:
Do I believe in evolution?
Yes. Science has pretty irrefutable evidence that life goes through changes, however, the idea that we evolved from a single cell, which put itself together by chance, isn't worthy of being called a theory, rather a failing hypothesis.
Do I belive in an old earth?
Yes. Science has conclusive evidence for this, however, this has nothing to do with the theory of evolution.
But, do I believe in the seven days of genesis?
Yes, the days are long ages.
Do I believe that God will judge mankind?
Yes, but it aint hell you orthodox idiots.
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Stevenator, is it not awesome how different God has made each of us....we all have our own interests and evolution may be yours. I do however want to caution you to not become to overly involved in your research into this matter. The devil can use all sorts of interests and vices to lure us away from studying the Word of God and before long you will find yourself regretting having wasted the time instead of getting to know God better.
Don't get me wrong....I too have interests, I am just sensitive in my spirit now when I know that I am not spending enough time with God and nowadays I ask myself this question before I set off..."how am I going to glorify God by doing this or that"
Salomo wrote in Ecclesiastes 1:12 - 18 that he was in pursuit of wisdom, studied most things etc. etc. and his conclusion always was the same......in the end it is all vanity and vexation of spirit.
"12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. 15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. 17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. 18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."
I am giving this advise with sisterly love....there is no contentious bone in my body. I hope you receive it in love, as it was meant.
Heidi
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Hey everyone,
Thanks for your responses. Hmm I don't really know for sure but I will keep an open mind. Well I don't want this to be a point of contention I just wanted to see if anyone believed in the theory and if there was anything in scripture about it. Heidi I will try to heed your advice and not let it become an obsession. I do need to spend more time with God.
btw here is an article about the eye (that I dont understand mind you) if anyone is interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
Steve
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Hi Stevenator.....glad you took my advise in a :) positive manner.....we are here to encourage each other. I had a look at the website and.......nah......does not make any sense to me as well. ;D
Heidi
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Hi Steve,
I saw where you posted a Wikipedia. I just wanted to add one more heads up if I may. :D Wikipedia is a website where anybody can go in and add anything they want about any subject. To prove this point, some Kansas college students posted a page on Wiki about The Flying Spaghetti Monster. You should check this out, it's hilarious!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I have never posted a web site on here before so I don't know if the link above will work. If you are researching evolution and astronomy with wikipedia please be aware of this.
Peace, 8)
Britt
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Its funny that you mentioned that Britt because right after I read your post I saw this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1PW596ZlGk&feature=rec-HM-r2
LOL
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Well I guess this solves this debate once and for all. ;D It was not god or evolution. We all came from a plate of flying spaghetti. A big thanks to wikipedia and youtube for finally bringing us the truth! :D
Take care Steve, :)
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If you feel that evolution has been established by science, check
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9334993/Darwinism-Refuted-Harun-Yahya
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Thanks Musicman I did, not that I didn't believe anyway. Judy
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Hello Steve
There is a DVD,"The case for a creator" by Lee Strobel
What do the discoveries of modern biology,physics,cosmology,and astronomy really
tell us about the origin of life and the universe?
there is also another DVD about the" universe"by lee
I think everyone would enjoy.
Walt.
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Kat and L. Ray Smith, just read quite a bit and intend to read more on those conferences 2007 and 2008. What came through for me was the love of God by Kat and Ray, the most beautiful, love filled descriptions of God and the Son. With hearts brimming over they both presented the Father and the Son with as much love as any saint I have ever read and I have read a lot of them. If they never emphasized another thing, this alone would participate in God's awakening of the dead soul because this is NOT the FOOLISHNESS of preaching but the Spirit speaking in love. Judy
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Hi Judy,
Wow you kind of lumped me in there with Ray ;D Let me just say that Ray did all the preparing of these articles for the conferences, with no help from anybody and certainly not me. I just come along later and transcribe them so we can read them.
Yes love is the utmost thing and that does come across in Ray's teachings.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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To everyone,
Please understand that I am not attempting to undermine the existence of God. I am trying to explore science and how it explains our origins. Walt, maybe I will check that video out.
To musicman,
Well you can read about the author here. He sounds pretty shady to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harun_Yahya
One complainant, a fashion model named Ebru Simsek claimed she was blackmailed.[58], and then slandered as a "prostitute" in fax messages sent to hundreds of different newspapers, TV channels, major business companies, foreign consulates and government offices for refusing to have sex with Adnan Oktar.
Adnan Oktar founded the Science Research Foundation (SRF, or BAV in Turkish), whose objective is "to [establish]...peace, tranquility and love,"[7] though the BAV is described in the media as "a secretive Islamic sect"[8] or a "cult-like organization, that jealously guards the secrets of its considerable wealth."[9] In 2008 he was sentenced by a Turkish court to three years in prison for "creating an illegal organization for personal gain."[
The Atlas of Creation
His latest publication, The Atlas of Creation, was published by Global Publishing, Istanbul, Turkey in October 2006.[36] The book contains over 800 glossy pages and weighs 12 pounds (5.4 kg). Tens of thousands of copies of the book have been delivered, on an unsolicited basis, to schools, prominent researchers and research institutes throughout Europe and the United States.[37][3] Some of the schools that received copies were in France as well as prominent researchers at Utrecht University, University of Tilburg, University of California, Brown University, University of Colorado, University of Chicago, Brigham Young University, the University of Connecticut, the University of Georgia, Imperial College London, Abertay University and several others.[3] When the book was sent to French schools and universities, controversy resulted and the book sparked further concern about Islamic radicalism in France.[3] In 2007, Harper's Magazine contributor Scott Horton reported that 35th U.S. Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez has Oktar's Atlas of Creation on a stand at the entrance to his US government office.[38]
The arguments used by the book to undermine evolution have been criticized as not logical while evolutionary biologist Kevin Padian has stated that Oktar has no understanding of the basic evidence for evolution.[2][3] Biologist PZ Myers wrote: "The general pattern of the book is repetitious and predictable: the book shows a picture of a fossil and a photo of a living animal, and declares that they haven't changed a bit, therefore evolution is false. Over and over. It gets old fast, and it's usually wrong (they have changed!) and the photography, while lovely, is entirely stolen."[39]
Richard Dawkins reviewed the book (later translated into Turkish) noting that it contains a number of factual errors, such as the misidentification of a sea snake as an eel (two unrelated species)[40] and in two places uses images of fishing-lures copied from the internet instead of actual species[41][40]. A number of other modern species are mislabelled.[40] However, Oktar himself claims that Nicholas Sarkozy, Jacques Chirac and Tony Blair were influenced by his book[42].
It is important to consider motives and agendas people may have when putting forth an argument.
Peace,
Steve
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I wasn't aware of the controversy surrounding this author, but should I be surprised? It is hard to know what to believe when we don't have the time to search out every angle of every belief system. I figure that most people who write books have an agenda to make money. That's one of the special qualities about Ray. He has no such agenda. I would hope that this author actually believes what he writes. The best we can do is compare his writings with others.
This man Oktar, writes many things that I have heard numerous times. From the Cambrian Explosion to the evolution of birds, he identifies impossibilities that evolutionists claim to have substantiated with proof. Hardly!! Creatures have shown up in the fossil beds fully formed, with no apparent intermediates. Evolutionists will claim that they have several intermediates, but that is just not so. Why would the idea of punctuated equilibrium be explored by Gould if there were so many intermediates? By the way, this is the notion that evolution took place in small groups rather quickly and the numbers of intermediates would be too few in number for the evidence to show up. And how many creationists would endorse his statement of a modern man existing 1.7 million years ago? He mentioned that a particular human fossil that old was almost exactly the same as those of recent times. I personally don't feel that some creatures existing in the same forms 70 million years ago invalidates the theory of evolution.
I have the highest respect for science and evolutionists. Their work is important and I read up on it when I can. I don't feel that they have answered their critics though. I think that their theory is a pipe dream and they are just as guilty of ignoring scientific evidence as young earth creationists. I don't agree with everything that this author here writes, as he suggests that every organ of every creature has a proven use. I am still baffled by some of the evidence for evolution even though he denies the significance of most of it. But the bottom line is, a self replicating cell cannot come together on it's own, and evolution could never happen without billions of tiny successive approximations.
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Actually that is exactly how they built the Boeing 747; only it evolved in less than 100 years.
Smart little one celled critters out there. What utter poppycock from supposed learned people.
Just ignore the Greatest Historian and Historical Record ever Written: The Scriptures.
Psa 19: 1-14 (KJV)
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
george. ;D
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George, I actually made a connection! My shrink once told me that the way the brain is formed with so many connections that people are always making these connections and therefore the brain cannot be trusted. Say you? Judy
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You know, Kermit the Frog made a certain song famous. He sang "someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection". That song has a deeper meaning when you apply it to evolution. Evolutionists claim "someday we'll find them, the billions of little evolutionary connections" (sing it folks). And what's with that talking frog made out of socks? Sounds like we're ready for another post.
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Steve,
I came across this on Ray's How We Got the Bible transcripts.
BIG BANG OR A GOD AWESOME BLAST
Psalms 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered, at Thy rebuke, O Lord, at THE BLAST of the breath of Your nostrils.
This is figurative language of course, but lets pay attention to the words anyway. He is likening a real powerful force as being what? A BLAST from the nostrils of God. A BLAST. You see the same thing in II Samuel.
2 Samuel 22:16 Then the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuking of the Lord, at THE BLAST of the breath of His nostrils.
Exo 15:8 And with THE BLAST of Your nostrils the waters were gathered together; the floods stood upright like a heap; the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
How? By the BLAST of God’s breath/nostrils. So God says He uses “A BLAST” to do big things. So I’m going to be a little silly here, but making a point as well. I was thinking the other day, what is the difference if science says there was a ‘Big Bang’ and I say there was a God awesome blast. What’s the difference? Can you see the similarity? Scientist all know now that it started with a big bang, I say could that be like a God awesome blast? Let’s look at this blast. Where did they come up with the Big Bang? The universe is expanding. When did they learn that? They really first began to understand that back in about 1960. I mean I was already full-grown, I was out of high school. That’s when they really started to understand this, not a hundred years ago, not 2 or 3 hundred years ago, not in the days of Copernicus (16th century Polish Astronomer), not in the days of Galileo (17th century Italian physicist and astronomer). A couple of decades ago they learned this. So where did they come up with the Big Bang though? If the universe is expanding, if the stars and galaxies are moving out….
STARS - GALAXIES - THE UNIVERSE
What is the difference between a star, a galaxy and the universe?
A star is one single body, like the sun. Our sun is a star.
A cluster of stars in a given area with a lot of void around it is a galaxy. Most galaxies have about 100 billion stars. We belong to the Milky Way galaxy. It is so big that it take light starting at one end, going at 600 million mph (that is the speed of light -186,000 miles a second), that is like going around the earth 8 times in a second. So you could travel in a spaceship going 186,000 miles a second and it would take you 100,000 years to reach the end of our galaxy.
Yet if you back up in space, our galaxy looks like one star. You got to get really close and you see it’s billions of stars and they are hundreds of millions of miles apart. But if you back up in space then you will reach a point where our whole galaxy, which is a 1000,000 light years across, looks like one star. You back up a little more and you can’t even see it. Then out there, there is other galaxies, that looks like a star from our Milky Way, but it’s not a star, it‘s another galaxy, billions of miles away. Like Andromeda, that’s one of the closest galaxies.
So you have one body like the sun, that is a star. A whole group of stars clustered, is a galaxy. All the galaxies combined is the universe.
So they discovered that the stars and galaxies are flying apart, at terrific speed. They learned that through the dipolar theory. When sound or light is approaching you, the frequency is higher. If you are moving away from it, the frequency is lower. What they found is that these distant stars have a lower frequency and so they are moving away. So if the stars are all moving away from each other, then so many years before that, they were here (hands stretched apart). Then so many thousands of years before that, they were here ( hands closer together). And so many millions of years before that, they were there (hands together). Common sense says if they are going out like this (hand stretching out) at one time they were back here (hands together). That’s the Big Bang! It started at a common origin, that’s all it’s saying. It sounds like a science fantasy, ‘the Big Bang.’ No, it’s just a clever way…by using a statement to show a scientific theory, that if everything is going apart, the further you go back the closer it was together. It’s only natural that it started at one place and that’s why it’s moving apart from where it started. That’s the Big Bang.
Now notice this in Psalms.
Psalms 104:2 Who cover Yourself with light as with a garment, Who STRETCH OUT the heavens like a curtain.
What? You read that and you say that’s kind of poetic talk of King David in the Psalms. But it isn’t just King David though.
Isa 40:21 “Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
v. 22 It is He who sits upon (it should be above) the circle of the earth…”
How did they know the earth was a circle? Some of the most intelligent scientist in all of Great Brittan, just a couple hundred years ago, they thought it was flat. How come the Bible knew it was a circle? That’s not my point though. Continuing in verse 22.
“…And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who STRETCHES OUT the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in (or under).”
It’s like a great tent, under this canopy, this celestial tent. But it says “stretches” it’s in the indefinite, like the Greek aorist tense. Much of King James has it properly, some times it doesn’t though, in key scripture lot of times it doesn’t.
John 3:16 “For God so LOVED the world…” NO, that’s not what it says in the Greek. He didn’t ‘loved’ the world once and now He doesn’t. It’s in the aorist tense. “For God thus LOVES” He loved them, He loves all along, He loves now, He will love in the future. It’s indefinite, it’s the past - present - future tense. “God so loves the world…” You see that’s how it should be translated. Any scholar knows that this is indefinite.
The Concordant version translates it “who is stretching out…” Now that really puts it in the present, Young’s has the same.
Isa 40:22 “…Who is (present tense - now is) stretching out as a thin gauze the heavens…” (CLV)
How could they say that? How would any one know that the heavens are being stretched out? Any logical person, being a Godly man or atheist, if he was to consider that somebody did make the heavens, they would say, ‘well up there is a star and somebody made it.’ Where did He make it? ‘Well right there where it is.’ There are stars on the other side of the earth, looking the other way. Up there is the moon. Where did He make the moon, over in Palestine or down in Africa? ‘Well there, that’s where it is, so that’s where He made it.’ Here’s the sun, well where did He make the sun? ‘Right there, where it is, that’s where He made the sun.’ Anybody would see that. That’s the only logical conclusion that your brain could come to. Where ever it is, if there is a God, that’s where He made it.
But that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible says, “He is (present tense) stretching out…the heavens.” How could they know that?! The best scientist in the world didn’t know that until just a couple years ago. This is amazing stuff. This is mind boggling stuff. The writers knew that the heavens are moving out. You can’t see that. It takes the most sophisticated knowledge and instruments that science could come up with in thousands of years to finally measure that they are moving. Yet Isaiah and King David they knew it thousands of years ago. It’s unbelievable, it’s just unbelievable. Now this is very specific and it’s very scientific.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 08:45:56 AM by Kat » Logged
I found it an interesting read.
Britt
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Georgia Boy that was something you wrote there. Amazing, at least to me. Judy
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Judy- ???