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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: onelovedread on April 03, 2012, 03:47:24 PM
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I just thought I'd share a bit of this wonderful study by Ray. We were so brain washed in our church past about being required to go out to "witness" or "preach" souls into the Kingdom. Now we know that God draws people as a result of these things, but we were made to believe that it is we who "get them saved."
I used to feel so guilty because I wasn't doing anything to "save" people. Aren't we here to let our light shine?
I vaguely recall a verse I think is in Peter's epistle that says "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." Isn't that pretty much the extent of our "testimony" or do you think we're called to do more, apart from putting on the armor of Christ. Any thoughts?
Here's a part of Ray's study:
CAN YOU ‘WIN’ SOULS FOR CHRIST?
All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God’s Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.
Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.
But isn’t there a Scripture somewhere that speaks of "winning souls?" No, not really.
Once only do we find any words regarding "winning souls" in the King James Bible:
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov. 11:30).
This verse, however, has absolutely nothing to do with saving the souls of those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour. The Hebrew word kal from which the word winneth was translated, is used hundreds of times in the King James, but only once is it translated into any form of the word "win." It means to, take, bring, fetch, acquire, rescue, etc., but "win" is a poor choice of words. Besides, spiritual salvation through Jesus Christ is not the topic of Proverbs 11:30. Two New Testament Scriptures:
In Phil. 3:8 we read, "…that I may win [Gk: ‘gain’] Christ…" and in I Pet. 3:1, "…they also may… be won [Gk: ‘gained’] by the conversation [conduct] of the wives…" The other dozen times this Greek word kerdaino is used, it is always ‘gain’ or ‘gained.’ Example: "…Lord you delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained [Gk: kerdaino] two other talents beside them" (Matt. 25:22).
Why didn’t the King James translate this: "…behold I have WON two other talents…?" Surely even these translators could see the implications of increasing our God-given talents by gambling with them for higher ‘WINNINGS.’
Christians need to get all this gambling terminology out of their heads when it comes to the doctrines of God. Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense.
Salvation is not a matter of a first chance or a second chance or any chance. Salvation is "sure."
"SURELY, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He NOT, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL? (Rom. 8:32, Concordant Literal New Testament).
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great question "oneloved"
I have had similar thoughts and have found over the years that it is difficult to avoid sharing with zeal to folks who may be curious but not truly interested. It seems to be human nature to want to tell everyone and be truly disappointed when they are not as excited as we are.
I think the value of evangelism is to teach us the value of what we have been given and to learn by experience that it is not something we can give to another unless God is in their hearts. We may be the means of communication in some instances, but only God can offer this gift and convict the hearer that it is for their benefit.
But that does not mean we should stop trying. It is by the sincere effort that we learn within ourselves how rare the gift is and come to appreciate the responsibility we will have in the period of training and enlightenment that is to come in the next age.
It is still hard to imagine myself as a true spiritual brother of Lord Jesus, but it is true and inspiring.
Indianabob
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Even after all this time and study (including Ray's "Winning Souls for Christ?") Iam still uncertain about when the "goal of witnessinng' has been met. (I have written on this before but I still have no closure.)
Atleast with the conclusion of the "sinners prayer" the one witnessing has heard the "sinner" ask forgiveness and "Christ to come into their hearts and lives"! Those are joyous words to hear and "the angels in heaven rejoice over one lost person coming to the Lord"!
With talking and talking about the greatness, love and supreme sacrifice of Jesus on the cross--WITHOUT the sinner's prayer o the use of some words--HOW do you knoow the TRANSITION FROM UNSAVED TO SAVED has truly taken place?
How do you know WHEN to stop talking/sharing --not knowing their hearts? I know it is ONLY important that GOD knows but----. Anyway, I 've seen salesman talk their way into, and thru, and OUT of a sale by just NOT KNOWING when to shut up! Without a FIRM CLOSE like a mutual agreement of understanding culminating in the "sinner's prayer" I still say:
"How do you know when you have arrived?"
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Duane, one observation--Not every church requires a 'sinner's prayer' to mark the beginning of a christian life.
The GOAL as you put it is spelled out from the beginning of Scripture. God is creating man in His own image. It will be acheived when He's done. Not only can we not see the end of this in others, we can't even see it in ourselves except as a process.
One reason why we can't see it in others is because of the nature of God's plan for the salvation of all. Many are called, few are chosen.
Keep your question in mind and read How Hard is Getting Saved?: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html and What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html
1Co 12:27-13 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(and here it comes...right in the next chapter and verse..)
1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophecies, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I give out all my goods, and if I deliver my body that I be burned, but I do not have love, I am not profited anything.
1Co 13:4 Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious; love is not vain, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave indecently, does not pursue its own things, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth.
1Co 13:7 Love quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.
1Co 13:11 When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I caused to cease the things of the infant.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.
1Co 13:13 And now faith, hope, and love, these three things remain; but the greatest of these is love.
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When I "came to Christ" when I was 12 years old it was real. Very real. probably one of the geatest experiences of my life. It was a very simple prayer.
When I got home from church I went for a walk. I laid down on the side of a hill and basked in the love of God. For how long I do not know, but it changed me.
Did I think I was rescued form hell? Of course I did, but that is not what I was baskin in. I was in love. And it was wonderful.
I don't deny the good things that happened to me. I do not deny that that was the start of my walk with Christ. I thought I was saved of course, not really understanding all I had was the earnest, the deposit, and a whole lot more would come. But it was the start, for sure.
So I do preach. I do. I preach every day. I do not expect others to, but I do. I am part of face book groups, and I preach the gospel. Woe to me if I do not preach said Paul, and you know what? I understand. I give whatever part of the gospel is appropriate. In little pieces, sometimes in big pieces. My friends, my family, know what I believe very well. Several now believe very much the same, but without the intensity. SO be it. I won't stop. My athiest friends, we have spoken for 100 hours. They think my beliefs are beautiful. If God exists, and Jesus is the SOn, what I believe is the truth, they say. But I don't mince words. I tell them there is a cost. There is a cost. You must repent, you must die to your carnal nature, you must forsake the world. Contrary to some, I believe it is scriptural and correct to seek the Eonian life that Jesus promises to those who follow him by faith. I will seek and follow that life, that way, and will tell others about it at every opportunity.
I hope God shows me in time how He works. DO i really only preach to babyon? I only reach out to the ones in the church, to shouw them they are deceived? Well, I do that. And I also reach out to the unchurched. I preach Jesus, I talk about repentance, I talk about Him being the saviour of all men, but I talk about the great gift, the excellent goal of faith, the goal worth forsaking everything for, to be with Him in the first resurrection. I preach reighteousness and repentance along with the plain complete fact that Jesus will save the world, the goal for me is the Life of the Ages. I am not ashamed to say that is my greatest desire.
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DougE6
Questions. When you preach, what do you warn will happen to those who do not accept the gospel? Do you tell them that there will be a consequence to their refusal? And if so, what is it?
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Yes, I tell them that the ages to come have deep repentance and judgement awaiting them, if they do not repent. That even though hell is a myth, and eternal everlasting punishment is a myth, the reason God uses fire as the symbolism is because fire is very very thorough of burning away impurities and the sinful tendencies and the evil hearts and carnal minds of men. That God is not mocked. The Scriptures use langauage such as weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, because we are all going to be utterly exposed. All your secrets will be laid bare. I tell them it is far far better for them to repent and by faith follow Christ now in this life and receive the incomparable age lasting weight of glory that the whole universe will and is groaning for.
However, the Spirit of God convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement. You have to call sin what it is, sin. You have to. The starting step for all of us is the repent and realize we need forgiveness. Forgiveness, even though it is totally secured by Jesus for all of us, needs to be asked for by deep and contrite hearts, before God makes that forgiveness a reality for anyone. Until they ask, and repent, they will feel the weight of ther sins and the dark black conscience that comes with guilt.
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Can we win souls for Jesus?
Of course not. It is crazy christian church teaching that we can. They are ignorant both of the scriptures and the ways of God.
Even Jesus doesn't win souls for Jesus. When Jesus was on the earth in the form of a man, He did not convert even one human. No one was converted until after His death.
So if Jesus didn't convert anyone when He was teaching, how can any mere human think they can do better than Jesus? We think too much of ourselves and our abilities to believe such nonsense. It all comes from God. Give God all the glory.
The scriptures teach that it is the Father who brings anyone to Jesus. The Father. Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches. Jesus is the conduit of the Spirit. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life Who leads us to the Father.
We are dirt. God is doing us a favor working with us. We can't win anything. We can't do anything. All comes from God.
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Well John was all the effort that the Apostles put into preaching the gospel in vain? As Dave brought out in 1 Cor 12 God has given all manners of gifts to His church and I would think He intends for it to be put in use. Now I would not say that we should all start witnessing, no, my gift may not be to share this truth to others, but maybe it is for Doug. Isn't Ray witnessing to the church and exposing their heresies, well why couldn't someone else do the same?
What I'm trying to say is that we do what God puts on our hearts to do. Each of us have differing personalities and our life circumstances vary greatly and God brings that about and gives us gifts to serve Him the way He has determined.
Eph 4:11 And He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
When we have built a solid foundation of this truth should we hide this wonderful truth under a bushel? We are used by God in many different ways, but surely speaking these truths to others (witnessing) at one time ar another to some degree is what all of us will do. If we are living a life so different from this world, then that should raise a question from someone eventually and we would speak about this hope within us. But for others they may put themselves in situation for that to happen much more. Now I am not the same type person that could do what Doug does, but I would never say he should not do what he is doing.
Mark 9:38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us."
v. 39 But Jesus said, "Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me.
v. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us.
Now this Jesus said about someone who was not even His disciple, at the time. Paul even said that we should eventually move on to teaching others.
Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
So what I'm seeing is God brings us to this truth and then leads us in somewhat different direction to prepare us for whatever His intentions are for us. I would say that witnessing to those who are interested, even if it's just idol curiousity, if God puts it in your heart to do so... what harm is it? I would say go for it, that's between him and God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This scripture came to mind when reading this thread:
1Cor. 1:21 - "For, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing."
In my case, when I was inspired by God to seek "truth", it wasn't because someone had been "preaching" at me prior to that search. However, once I was drawn to this website by God, He used the "teachings/preachings" of Ray to help me come to an understanding of many scriptural truths, such as Universal Salvation, Sovereignty of God, No Free Will, No Hell, and many more spiritual lessons. I, however, do not go around "preaching" at people. I have found many opportunities to share my faith and beliefs just by participating in everyday/normal conversation.
René
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Hey Onelovedread! Nice post. I'm learning a lot with everyone's comments to this thread.
Hi Kat and Rene' and all who are commenting.
Can WE win souls for Christ? In a word NO! But we must not stop here! There are more aspects to this question.
I have to agree with John and also with DougE6 and with Kat's comment where I believe she is trying to blend the two together.
[I had almost completed an earlier comment and somehow without my hands not even being on my keyboard, and not quite complete, my homepage appeared and I had lost all that I had written. It was in more detail and I am trying to retrace my thoughts. Ugh!! ]
I believe that not only does God use the foolishness of the world to draw many to Him (false preaching, world events, situations etc.) to choose some of the many, He also uses His elect (unknown to us of course) to draw and choose who He wills in this present age, just as Rene' suggested with scripture.
Our duty as true believers is to act out our lives in Christ as the Holy Spirit moves us. This is our "great commission". Then, if one is given the ability to teach, such as Ray, or to evangelize like Doug, then we are to use those talents.
For example: Just like when we think prayer is of no consequence because all is foreordained by God, we are commanded by God to pray. When we feel that "urging" to pray for someone or something, that may very well be the Holy Spirit urging us to pray. When we feel the urging we are not to quench/stifle the Holy Spirit. God's ways are not our ways.
Likewise, it is the same with witnessing. Whether it be by our actions, lifestyle, communication or full blown evangelism like Doug is proclaiming; God may use "us" as a *cause* for the effect that He desires, IE, to draw and choose some, in this age, for Him.
We can use the parables of Jesus (like Ray teaches, they all typify the same thing) but in particular, Luke 18: 9-14, many who were called doesn't mean all were chosen. But, those that were "justified" - doesn't that mean they were called and chosen/saved? One example in Jesus' ministry, nine were called, one was chosen. "and He said to them, 'Having risen, be going on, thy faith hath *saved* thee.' Luke 17: 11-16. YLT
I would have to search more thouroughly, but I believe there are other examples like this one where some that Jesus healed were also saved. But, for sure, very few were.
Now I have a question. Is it absolutely true that Jesus did not save anyone? Can anyone find two scriptures that state that Jesus did not save anyone?
I'm sure that all of you know, that with all of my comments, past or future, I will never be "dogmatic". I am always open for correction and to change any wrong view when truth is presented.
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Some examples of Jesus' interaction with individuals and "saving" them by their faith.
' and Jesus said unto him, receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.' Luke 18:42
'...see: your faith has saved you' Mark 10:52
'take courage daughter, thy faith hath saved thee,....' Luke 18:48
'your faith has saved you, go in peace.' Luke 7:50
'For by grace ye are saved, through faith....' Eph. 2: 8,9 ---- whose faith?.... Christ's faith!
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Hi Doug,
Now I have a question. Is it absolutely true that Jesus did not save anyone? Can anyone find two scriptures that state that Jesus did not save anyone?
Your question I believe is from the statment John made; "When Jesus was on the earth in the form of a man, He did not convert even one human. No one was converted until after His death."
Now this is true, because a person must have there eyes opened to this truth in order to repent and that only comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ and that did not take place until Christ returned to the Father.
John 7:39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
The word "saved" in the verses you present does not seem to apply toward salvation. Look at these other translations.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way. (KJV)
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, Go, your faith has healed you. And instantly he saw again, and he followed Jesus in the way. (MKJV)
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way. (ESV)
Here is an email that helps explain why the word 'saved' is used in some Scripture.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4189.0 --------------
Luke 7:50 is speaking of being "saved" from her prior condition, just as when Jesus told various people that their "faith has made thee WHOLE," when He healed them of a disease. This verse is not speaking of spiritual salvation.
I Cor. 1:18 is in the Greek aorist tense, and therefore should be rendered, "yet to us who are BEING saved...."
II Cor. 2:15 likewise should be rendered, "in those who ARE BEING saved and in those who ARE PERISHING...."
Eph. 2:5 "(in grace you are saved)" is speaking of HOW we are saved, NOT WHEN we are saved. Those to come after us also "ARE saved by grace" rather than by some other means. Same with verse 8.
II Tim. 1:9 likewise should be translated "who SAVES us and CALLS us..."
You didn't read my paper: "YOU FOOLS! YOUR HYPOCRITES! YOUR SNAKES!" did you? Near the end I cover these verses and explain them in detail.
God be with you,
Ray
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So nobody was, nor could have been 'saved' while Jesus was still on earth. But He is "the Door" and the only way by which anybody can be saved. But in this life we only receive the an "earnest" of His Spirit as we are not "saved" yet, but are being/shall be saved.
2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Acts 4:10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.
v. 11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
v. 12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
As we all know the only possible way for salvation is through "the Door," Jesus Christ.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. Here is a link to the article "How Hard is Getting Saved?' a very good read
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
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Ray and Kat - I have to be honest - I'm in shock. I can see where I need lots and lots of review on my understanding of "spiritual conversion".
Yes, I had read the paper "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes! I had also read and had listened to the audio of the link you gave Kat. Some of the topics there were new to me but I understand and agree with all said. I have again reread the sections in "You Fools..." [3] This is the only day of salvation - II Cor. 6:2, and also reread the section "This is the briefest outline of how God saves us." These materials still leave out the questions I have and did not explain enough in detail for my understanding.
Before coming to this forum or the BT site, I knew that salvation was an ongoing process; sin, judgment, repentance, sin, judgment, repentance, "all the day long", throughout a "true believer's" walk. So that and especially God's sovereignty is no problem with me. When I generically use the word save, I mean "ongoing" salvation.
First, I need to establish a foundation that we can agree upon before I can proceed with any bible study. I'm missing a critical link somewhere. So bear with me on these initial questions.
Are we back to the age old question that no one was spiritually converted from Adam to the Pentecost?
Are you inferring that none of the people at Nineveh from the King on down repented? And therefore were not spiritually converted?
Was not the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit, in Jesus when He walked this earth? Or was that taken from Him when He was made a little lower than the angels? Isn't Jesus the very essence of the Holy Spirit?
Was not the Holy Spirit of God (btw, I'm not a trinitarian) in those that God inspired to write the scriptures? Both O/T & N/T?
Was not Jesus using the physical act of healing the multitudes and by "drawing/dragging" a few individuals aside as written in the gospels to show/illustrate to us the spiritual application of how He heals ones sin sick soul and to be spiritually healed? IE, saved, converted,... from then on (for those select few) the "process" of salvation?
Are you not picking and choosing bible translations to form a doctrine that Jesus didn't "save" anyone? Or am I doing the same to show that He in fact did - and that those He used as an example of spiritual conversion not only got physically saved but also spiritually healed?
sincerely, doug
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Hi Doug,
Are we back to the age old question that no one was spiritually converted from Adam to the Pentecost?
Well that is the way I see it. As with the Scriptures I have already posted nobody will/can be in the first Resurrection accept "through" Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
v. 12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
The man Jesus Christ was not even born yet in the OT, so nobody could be brought/drawn to Him before His life and death.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
In Hebrews 11 we have a long list of the faithful of the OT, but they "did not receive the promise."
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
They did not receive the promise because the Savior had not been born yet, but they will be "made perfect" in the next age through Christ and those reigning with Him "us," those elect who are in the first resurrection.
v. 40 for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
Not even John the Baptist will be in the first resurrection, because he died before Christ was sacrificed.
Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
There are only a few that are chosen from the many that will be brought to receive salvation in this age. Here is a section from the article #8 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?'
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -----------------------------------------
THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).
So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?
Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."
One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:
"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).
Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.
There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.
All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!
When Jesus says that,
"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),
He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!
We will see it conclusively proved from God’s Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren’t the "soft" words that tickle people’s ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn’t "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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DOug--with your last post we have come about 'FULL CIRCLE' as to my original question--if you go back and read my "opening" post.
From reading everyones input, I can say that the answer to MY question of "How do we KNOW when people we are talking to are saved" : WE DON'T! And furthermore, as salvation is a continuing process, even those who weep and wail at the alter MAY "fall away" in years following and NOT "endure to the end".
So, in reading all the posts, I have to conclude that I am more with Doug in that I HAVE TO preach, witness, write, instruct,
proclaim because God made my personality that way! If I ride a distance with a person, I HAVE to bring up God and what He has done for me and the sacrifice He made for the world. It is best explained by--when you hear a funny joke --that reminds you of a funny joke you know--you JUST CAN"T WAIT for eeveryone to get done laughing at the first one so you can share YOURS!! You feel like you are going to burst with anticipation! THAT'S how I feel about talking to people about God or writing an article to share. NOW, GOD will do the "sales close" rather than us--that's what I learned!
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I like the double meaning here:
Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense. ;D
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Kat look at this in Jn20-21 what do you understand?
19 When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you. 20 And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord. 21 Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. 22 And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit: 23 whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Now this is true, because a person must have there eyes opened to this truth in order to repent and that only comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirt and that did not take place until Christ returned to the Father.
John 7:39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
The word "saved" in the verses you present does not seem to apply toward salvation. Look at these other translations.
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Hi ez2u,
In the Scripture you posted there is the statement from Jesus, "He breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." So this is before Jesus Christ returned to the Father.
Now am thinking you are wondering how this fits with what I said, "Now this is true, because a person must have there eyes opened to this truth in order to repent and that only comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirt and that did not take place until Christ returned to the Father."
If this is what you were asking about Ray has a really good answer that I agree with in the article 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?'
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------------
On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!
It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!
"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).
The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,
"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi everyone! Although this true story came from my 'preacher' (I'll call Wayne) while I was active in Babylon, it was very inspirational and made a profound impact on my thinking. Wayne also served as a chaplain in a prison. One activity he implemented was taking several prisoners to a 'Road to Emmaus' retreat weekend. One particular prisoner was what he called 'a very hard case'. Wayne (a white man) knew this man (black) was bitter, full of racial hatred and participated in 'religious' activities more to get away from the daily rut and to used the forum to spew his disbelief and hatred. Nothing seemed to reach this poor bitter man after two days into the retreat. That night, Wayne said he prayed, "Lord, give me some way I can reach ____'s heart". The next morn while they all stood in a prayer circle and with only the words 'I love you as Jesus loves you' to each man, Wayne took a pan of water and bathed all the prisoners' feet. When he knelt below ______, tears streamed down this hard, bitter man's face and he broke down in sobs. His entire attitude changed and he began an individual bible study. By the time of _____'s release, Wayne was inspired by his humility and apparent love for those whom he had hated for so much of his life. Wayne told me, it was a life-changing experience for him even more so than _______.
I guess the reason this story impacted me so is how it revealed that often, it isn't the 'preaching' that reaches people but the love and service we should be exhibiting to every one as our Lord did. Not only do such acts humble us, it is a profound manifestation of what HE came to show us and it can bring them to their knees if it is our Father's will to do so.
Barbara
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Well said my friend,
And often we need only go so far as our own family.
It is not about how many people we reach; it is about how we share love wherever we have opportunity.
bob
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Kat--thank you for your answer about the Holy Spirit being Jesus and Jesus being the Comforter (Holy Spirit).
While that, in itself breaks up the Trinity concept, now that we know that Jesus OR the spirit of Jesus is the Holy Spirit, should we say "it" or "he"? (I wrote a post about this and NO ONE brought this up (?).)
I believe that I read that the spirit of the Father (GOD) is also in the BREATH of the spirit, or Holy Spirit. SO the Holy Spirit is made up OF the COMBINED spirits of Jesus and God the FATHER. (and seeing that God the Father can do NOTHING except thru Jesus--the holy spirit HAD TO await Jesus's death and resurrection-yes?)
Side point--Jesus WASconceived of the holy spirit so Jesus WAS part of His OWN conception!--because you can't SPLIT the holy spirit into --this portion is God the Father; and, this portion remaining-- is Jesus. (mind-blowing!)
WHICH also means that when the holy spirit is interceding to the Father in our behalf--is it REALLY Jesus (in the form of the Holy Spirit) talking to His Father on our behalf?
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Hi Duane,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all.
This is so easy to get confused, but I want to bring out one very important point, the Father is above all else. Jesus Christ came from the Father and all things were given to Christ from the Father.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world.
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father...
You stated, "God the Father can do NOTHING except thru Jesus." Actually it quite the other way around.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
v. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does...
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM, and that I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.
v. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.
Also here is an email from Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4995.0.html -----------
The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God." However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18). Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15). The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS. "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT."
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Abednego,
To me the position of being at the 'right hand' of the Father is a figure of speach.
Mark 16:19 Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking up intently into Heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
v. 56 And he said, Behold, I see Heaven opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
I saw a comment in the Barnes commentary that struck me as very much the way I understand this.
We are not to suppose that God has hands, or that Jesus sits in any particular direction from God. This phrase is taken from the manner of speaking among men, and means that he was exalted to honor and power in the heavens. It was esteemed the place of the highest honor to be seated at the right hand of a prince. So, to be seated at the right hand of God, means that Jesus is exalted to the highest honor of the universe.
Eph 1:20-21 which He (the Father) worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age.
There is no greater position of exaltation, there is only one that can hold this place of honor to this Most High God, that goes to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Php 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat--thank you AGAIN! I really had it mixed up!! Thank you also for the threads--I learn so much!
Part b of my inquiry:
--Jesus WAS conceived of the holy spirit so Jesus WAS part of His OWN conception!--because you can't SPLIT the holy spirit into --this portion is God the Father; and, this portion remaining-- is Jesus. (mind-blowing!)
WHICH also means that when the holy spirit is interceding to the Father in our behalf--is it REALLY Jesus (in the form of the Holy Spirit) talking to His Father on our behalf?
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Kat--thank you AGAIN! I really had it mixed up!! Thank you also for the threads--I learn so much!
Part b of my inquiry:
--Jesus WAS conceived of the holy spirit so Jesus WAS part of His OWN conception!--because you can't SPLIT the holy spirit into --this portion is God the Father; and, this portion remaining-- is Jesus. (mind-blowing!)
WHICH also means that when the holy spirit is interceding to the Father in our behalf--is it REALLY Jesus (in the form of the Holy Spirit) talking to His Father on our behalf?
Duane,
I think this idea, understanding, concept needs a little more work including my following comments.
We don't know what Creator God is or how He/She/It exists or functions in the spiritual realm.
We don't know that Creator God is a person in the same sense that we refer to one another as persons.
We don't know that the Holy Spirit of the Trinity doctrine is a person either, but that is the way many have chosen to try to illustrate our relationship with the holy spirit.
The O. T. uses many schemes/analogies/metaphors to try to describe how we should think about God, but all fall short of a scientific or dictionary explanation which is what most folks want.
To state, "the holy "ruach" or "pneuma" using the English word SPIRIT can be simplified to saying that God is "spirit" or God is something invisible that we cannot understand or even describe. We know God is there because otherwise nothing would exist or be sustained in existence. God is just beyond description for any human other than Lord Jesus who has actually experienced God's reality; as far as we know.
In Acts 16:17-34 Paul explains to the religious of Athens about their "unknown god" and comes quite close to defining the power on high that we cannot see, touch, hear etc. This also helps to demonstrate how difficult it is for humans to describe the true God in human terms.
When the Bible speaks of the comforter interceding for us with God, it just means that God is always listening and that God cares and understands, EVEN though God is so great and so far above us, he can and does understand our frame, our painful existence. Yes, God knows what it is like to feel pain. God knows what it is like to carry a baby in a mother's womb and to be stretched out of shape in the often painful delivery process. God created the nervous system that allows the pain sensation that protects our bodies from further injury. All our bodily systems have been pre-tested for effectiveness; in the mind of God. Lord Jesus did not, after his physical existence have to explain to Father God what it was like to be human/physical; God already knew and suffered with Lord Jesus. In like manner God and now Lord Jesus know and suffer with each of us in our trials.
So what we are left with is that the holy spirit is the (invisible something) that we cannot explain that has the ability to exert authority and power in the physical realm. It is the something that Creator God uses to accomplish "His" works. It is the word or spoken thoughts of Creator God. It is God making things happen according to God's will and purpose. It is God desiring that Mary the mother of Lord Jesus conceive in her womb a male child and willing it to happen. So the holy spirit is God at work. AND now by divine appointment it is also Lord Jesus the Christ at work in our daily lives.
In the U.S. we have a saying about a government OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people.
The holy spirit may be similar in that it is OF God, BY God and FOR God's benefit and pleasure.
I realize that my poor attempt at explanation is lacking in many ways, but I hope to generate a little more thought and introspection, contemplation of the idea.
Indiana Bob