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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gallenwalsh on March 07, 2010, 01:46:23 PM

Title: called and chosen
Post by: gallenwalsh on March 07, 2010, 01:46:23 PM
Were the 12 apostles called, and chosen?It seemed  to me that the apostle Paul felt pretty confident that he had a crown waiting for him and that he successfully had completed his course and was ready to die and await his resurrection to be with the Lord.  I have heard it said that one can be called and we hope to be chosen. I understand that one cannot be sure if they are chosen until the resurrection, that will be the PROOF. Raised spiritual or physical. That's pretty much black and white. My question is really quite simple though, if god has put his holy spirit in you , are you chosen ? What does that mean if God has put his spirit in you?I prefer to think that if you come up with a spiritual body in the resurrection that you are now complete. But maybe even then not complete because much time will pass before we are presented to the father.This called , chosen, and faithful stuff seems spurious at times.
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 07, 2010, 01:53:51 PM
This called , chosen, and faithful stuff seems spurious at times.

It only seems that way from a certain perspective. Judas was called but not chosen. He died unfaithful. So being called requires God's Calling. Being Chosen requires God's Spirit of obedience that makes us be found faithful though we be tried and found faithful unto death.  8)

The called and chosen "stuff" is not actually spurious.  Jesus came to tell us about the Kingdom of God and His Parables were to do with the many called and the few chosen.


Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: gallenwalsh on March 07, 2010, 02:01:33 PM
Not sure what that is supposed to mean. It sounds good.but, surely not one human being is faithful, or will ever be, as Ray has stated we are sinning MACHINES.
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: mharrell08 on March 07, 2010, 02:03:35 PM
My question is really quite simple though, if god has put his holy spirit in you , are you chosen ? What does that mean if God has put his spirit in you?I prefer to think that if you come up with a spiritual body in the resurrection that you are now complete. But maybe even then not complete because much time will pass before we are presented to the father.This called , chosen, and faithful stuff seems spurious at times.


Hello Gallenwalsh,

Ray has a bible study called 'Can We Lose God's Spirit & Eonian Life?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html). As Ray shows from the scriptures, one must continue in the faith until the end.

God's spirit is the grace of God upon your heart...the grace of God teaches us to live Godly [Tit 2:11-12]. With this divine influence upon your heart, God will inspire and move you to perform 'good works' which He has ordained that you walk in [Eph 2:10].

You are right in saying that only at the Resurrection are the chosen made complete...salvation is complete and finished at the Resurrection for the Chosen as death is swallowed up in victory. It doesn't matter how much time has passed for those who are in the grave seeing as Paul said we, who are alive, will not proceed them who are sleeping in the grave [1 Thess 4:15]. Also it is Christ who presents up flawless [Jude 1:24] and He is not restricted by any amount of time passed from one's death to the Day of the Lord.


Hope this helps,

Marques
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 07, 2010, 02:06:58 PM
All have sinned and fallen short of the mark gallenwalsh but it does not end there. God is making Sons and Daughters in the Image of His Son Jesus Christ.

We can do nothing without Him and with Him, if God be for us, who can be against us?

When Ray states we are sinning MACHINES, that is not to mean that is our destiny and final state of being. NO. God is creating us sinning machines to know the difference between good and evil. God's Will is going to prevail. God is making a family!

Hope this explains a bit better.

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: judith collier on March 07, 2010, 03:59:10 PM
Arcturus, hi!!! With much respect I need to know when you say God is using us to know the difference between good and evil, how you see that. Isn't it like eating the apple from the tree and having judgement, knowing good and evil. I thought we were not to judge.
From being on this site I have learned to look at situations differently. That once what I called evil is still evil, yes, but not neccesarily so as to judgement but rather the result of a period of time in a person's life that God has ordained with God being the responsible catylist. Maybe you are saying we are able to spot good and evil but not judge it. Correct?
Maybe I am thinking too much here and not doing a bang up job at it.
Please respond.
Thanks, judy
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Kat on March 07, 2010, 06:30:44 PM

Hi Gallenwalsh,

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Were the 12 apostles called, and chosen?

Most definitely, the proof is they lived their lives as total sacrifice for the sake of the truth after they were chosen. Jesus even gave a prophecy that the disciples would be chosen and faithful (except of course Judas), surely He knows who are His.

Mat 19:23  Then Jesus said to His disciples... (we see who Jesus is speaking to here)
v. 27  Then Peter answered and said to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?"
v. 28  So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


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It seemed  to me that the apostle Paul felt pretty confident that he had a crown waiting for him and that he successfully had completed his course and was ready to die and await his resurrection to be with the Lord.  I have heard it said that one can be called and we hope to be chosen. I understand that one cannot be sure if they are chosen until the resurrection, that will be the PROOF.

2Tim 4:6  For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
v. 7  I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
v. 8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

When Paul made this statement he knew he was about to be put to death. The proof was that he like the Apostles had lived his life as a total sacrifice for the sake of the truth after being knocked down by the blinding light that was Jesus Christ. He knew his work was done "I have finished the race," and he had been faithful "I have kept the faith." So I guess he had no doubt after all he had been through, that he would remain faithful in the last days that he had.

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My question is really quite simple though, if god has put his holy spirit in you , are you chosen ? What does that mean if God has put his spirit in you?

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit is given to those that God is going to prepare so as to be ready when Christ returns. I think you do have a sense of His spirit indwelling. Because you know when your life makes a definite change, when you begin to overcome the sins that have haunted you for so long, when you hunger and thirst for the knowledge of this truth so much and just can not get enough.

I will say you are only the chosen/elect if you do endure to the end, Jesus will not lose those that are His.

John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

If you have been enlightened to the truth and then you turn away from it, then you will not be restored in the age and you were never chosen.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6  if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

But someone can seem to be and think they are chosen and not be, remember the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matt. 13.

Mat 13:24-30  Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.  But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, "Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' He said to them, "An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, "Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'  But he said, "No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

So even if we are not absolutely sure we want to continue to strive to stay in the race our whole life, because we know there is a real hope of being in the first resurrection and to make it there will be well worth it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: G. Driggs on March 07, 2010, 10:44:04 PM
Not sure what that is supposed to mean. It sounds good.but, surely not one human being is faithful, or will ever be, as Ray has stated we are sinning MACHINES.

One can be "faithful" and still have sin in there lives, but those who are faithful sin less and less through a process which involves God's purifying, fiery judgment on the faithful. To the point sin no longer has dominion in ones life, which is where I believe Paul was when he said he had finished the race.

Here is a word from Ray about this process the faithful will have to go through now in this age.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10966.0.html

SO JUST HOW IS IT THAT WE STOP SINNING?

The answer is we can’t.  But God can and does and He does it BY GRACE through faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That is why: “There is now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom. 8:1)

Now we sometimes chastise our children, just like God chastises us. Do we chastise our children because they always know what’s right and wrong and do it anyway?  No, they’re young and foolish and sometimes they just don’t know what they’re doing or how wrong it is.  But we chastise them so they’ll learn.

God uses anger and wrath to TEACH humanity that what they ARE doing is wrong.  But He does not use anger and wrath on His very Elect.  Nowhere does God pour out wrath upon His chosen saints.  So don’t think that God is angry with you because you have a lot of trails and tribulations.  It is part of your training to become SONS OF GOD.

If we are “saved by grace through faith and that not of our own,” (Eph. 2:08) then why are we still sinning and often times it just seems apparent that we’re unable to conquer, at least, certain sins?  It sounds like God takes the responsibility to get you to stop sinning and He does take that responsibility. If He takes that responsibility, does it mean you don’t have enough responsibility to do it yourself ?  That’s exactly what it means.

So there’s a process and it’s all according to God’s timing, not ours. I wanted to stop all my major sins and minor ones too, but especially the major ones, long before I ever stopped. I wanted to quit smoking long before I quit. Why didn’t I?

How many of you were smokers?  Wow, God bless you all. My lungs are probably pink again, unless they are eaten up with cancer, but that’s a hard one.  Smoking is one of the hardest thing to quit, very hard. They say nicotine is more addictive than heroin and I know.  I actually quit a couple of times and started again. I quit smoking for 25 years and then started smoking again. When my wife left, she fell in love with the world and all the glitz and glamour, I wouldn’t date another girl who smoked.  But one time in Atlanta I dated a girl who smoked… before you knew it, I was having a cigarette with her. Then I smoked for years.  Then I quit again.  

But it takes a while for motivation, even though we can say God is the One who determines when you are actually going to put that last cigarette out. Nonetheless, you have to suffer through it.  You say, ‘no I put forth the effort.’ God made you put forth the effort. He made you choose and it was probably a hard choice.

But there’s a process to quitting smoking.  You try, you fail and one thing and another.  But that’s one that a lot of people do and they take credit for it.  Most people who quit smoking don’t give God credit for it. Some do and rightly so, but not all.  

So, there’s a process. First we are called of God;

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your CALLING, brethren…

This will bring about wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

1 Corinthians 1:28-29  …to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in His presence.
v. 30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
v.31 That, according as it is written, He that glories, let him glory in the Lord.

So, God calls you, He calls the weak nothings of this world and then He makes us in Christ Jesus - wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.  That’s God’s work, God does that.

But there are other processes necessary to reach that goal.  We must first  “repent and believe the Gospel.”  

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
v.15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

When Jesus Christ began His ministry, did everybody repent? No. Now at John’s preaching, a lot of them got baptized. Did they understand the spiritual ramification of being baptized? Did they understand that they were being baptized into Christ’s death?  No, they were just going under then water. Water is a sign of cleansing, washing off the dirt. They wanted to wash off the dirt, wash off their sins.
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Sometimes I forget this and I get really down on myself for my sins, but then I look back at how I was before coming here and I notice a definite improvement. That is not to say I think Im chosen just because there has been improvement, but it does give me more hope and faith to continue. It's so hard sometimes when God shows me the beast within, and it only by His power and grace I'm still here, hoping and praying for salvation from the world, from sin and from myself.

Peace, G.Driggs

Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 08, 2010, 07:43:08 AM
Good to see you again Judy.

Let me know if this helps please.

What I find easier to believe is that God is responsible for CAUSING or MAKING us, not using us, but creating for us our  experience of those circumstances HE appoints to us, in the making of either His vessel of honor or dishonor.

The way I see God working is in how God gave the first similarity between Himself as God, to man. God is generous, above evil and never changes His character of Grace and Love. Man sins and God blesses.  God caused and knew Adam and Eve would fail to obey Him. God already designed that what followed their disobedience, would be HIS GRACE imparting to man that first similarity on record, between Himself and His child - to know the difference between good and evil.

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We know that making man into the Image of God is God’s work in progress. The Work of God will be complete only once God is all in all.


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evil is still evil, yes, but not neccesarily so as to judgement but rather the result of a period of time in a person's life that God has ordained with God being the responsible catylist.

Yes God is responsible ! The more we see, accept and trust that fact, the better our perspectives of what is evil in our lives becomes as we see God  working ALL THINGS TO GOOD! 8)

Knowing good and evil is just a part of what judgment is all about. Look at what Paul testifies. He says he knows to do good but can’t. Paul is not saying that he has no clue what is good or bad. He knows. He just can’t apply what he knows. Only with the Spirit of God, can we obey and be as He is. At the end of Paul’s life, he was strengthened by the Spirit of God to follow Christ to his death by execution for this belief and faith. Only God’s Spirit could make Paul share in the privilege of laying down his life for his friends.

Judgment then has to be more than just knowing good and evil. It has also to be doing good over evil that only the Spirit of God can cause for which He is Responsible.

The Scriptures are accurate.  The first similarity between God and man, on record, was to KNOW. This was not to be the final or one and only similarity that God will cause man to share in the perfected work of His making us into the Image of His Son.

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Maybe you are saying we are able to spot good and evil but not judge it. Correct?

God is making us into His Children who, when we are fully like God, we will not be able to be deceived, mis-led or fooled. That means we have to learn to discern between good and evil, like God discerns and is not fooled or mis-led.  Not being swayed, influenced or in agreement with evil, may just as well feel like judgment to those who want us to go along with them and agree and believe in lies that many people have bought into at this time. That is the Plan of God that they do what they do and believe what they falsely believe.

Does that make God evil? No. On the contrary. God is wholly  responsible for opening their eyes and when He does, His will be the Glory entirely, and His Mercy will prevail.

It is good to think Judy.

Thanks for your thoughts and questions.

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: judith collier on March 09, 2010, 06:27:22 AM
Arcturus, thank you, I believe I got it!!! One more thing, if we don't feel too bad about our sins but do acknowledge them as sin, should we pray for repentance. I worry that I am not as concerned about them as I think I ought to be. Could it  be that just accepting oneself as a sinning military tank (in my case) is just an excuse for not trying to do better. Does God give Grace even when we don't ask for it. Should we pray for the Holy Spirit to do the work and then sit idly by and wait?? I mean how much are we to be involved? I think I am experiencing some apathy here and am concerned. Judy
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 09, 2010, 07:24:47 AM
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should we pray for repentance

God says we should pray for Wisdom.  Do the Scriptures anywhere say that we should pray for repentance? Forgive me a sinner! Is not the same prayer as change me I am not good enough, or praying for repentance.  In other words, we are to recognize, know and understand that we are sinners. We are to have faith trust and confidence in God who is our Maker that we are being made into His Image. We are not to go to our Maker and confront Him to change His Plans for us or His design in which He is making us into the Image of His Son.

Praying for repentance, change or perfection, is like praying for God to be good. God is Good whether we repent or not.

Rom 9:21  A potter has the right to do what he wants to with his clay, doesn't he? He can make something for a special occasion or something for ordinary use from the same lump.
Rom 9:22  Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction?
Rom 9:23  Can't he also reveal his glorious riches to the objects of his mercy that he has prepared ahead of time for glory-
Rom 9:24  including us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but from the gentiles as well?
Jesus told His Disciples of their need to pray all the time. We are to live our lives as in the Presence before God in our thoughts, motives and deeds, all the time!

Luk 18:13  "But the tax collector stood at a distance and would not even look up to heaven. Instead, he continued to beat his chest and said, 'O God, be merciful to me, the sinner that I am!'
Luk 18:14  I tell you, this man, rather than the other, went down to his home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the person who humbles himself will be exalted."  
We are to establish our hearts, minds, thoughts and deeds in His Presence all the time.

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Should we pray for the Holy Spirit to do the work and then sit idly by and wait?? I mean how much are we to be involved?

1Jn 3:19  And this is how we will know that we belong to the truth and how we will be able to establish our hearts in his presence.
1Jn 3:20  If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.
1Jn 3:21  Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God.
1Jn 3:22  Whatever we request we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
1Jn 3:24  The person who keeps his commandments abides in God, and God abides in him. This is how we can be sure that he remains in us: he has given us his Spirit.

So, no. There is nothing idle about how we are to be enabled by the Spirit of God to establish our hearts in His Presence. It is all His Work and yes, we are fully involved and completely accountable for a very wonderful reason and a most Godly Plan and Purpose!

 :) Repentance only comes from the Goodness of God. :)

Thanks for your questions. Let us go and re-read Ray's paper on Repentance! What do you think? :)

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Stacey on March 09, 2010, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from Arc,

Quote
We are to live our lives as in the Presence before God in our thoughts, motives and deeds, all the time!

I needed to hear this today, thanks Arc!

Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: judith collier on March 10, 2010, 03:40:53 PM
I'll go read it, thanks. Judy
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 10, 2010, 03:53:54 PM

I am glad that helped Stacey. 8)

 It is easier said than done :D .....I know better not to prescribe to anyone unless I am willing to do, attempt, aim for the same as what I advise. Success is only guaranteed by the Spirit of Christ who has achieved everything worth while!

Being able to APPLY living our lives as in the Presence before God in our thoughts, motives and deeds, all the time, requires His Spirit to enable us! Perhaps knowing what we should do is half way to  living in anxious and persistent expectation and super abounding hope in Christ fulfilling in us, His Righteousness.  /ref current discussion in Expectations Thread hosted by Roy.  8)

Judy, I plan to read that paper too 8) and get back to you :D :)

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 10, 2010, 04:13:39 PM
Hi Judy. :)

I have just spent the last five minutes re visiting Ray’s paper on Repentance. I think it deserves a Thread on its own.

There is so much to discuss.

 I have only just re-read the first few paragraphs and the Thread is ready to open already!

So please excuse me gallenwalsh - I do not want to hijack your Thread and I gratefully thank you for it. :)


 
Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: judith collier on March 12, 2010, 07:11:44 AM
Arcturus, I found something Ray said that was completely different from the way I saw it. I have a particular sin problem but when I prayed, deliver me from evil my mind was on the evil I had done. Focusing on something implants it ever more in the mind and then Satan condems us over and over. Ray said when we say "deliver us from evil" the evil is SATAN and that is who we are supposed to be praying to be delivered from.
I have to say my sin brought me a measure of enjoyment and it was difficult to honestly say or think I might actually be delivered from it knowing my habit and the stuborness of it. I had no faith I would be delivered from it actually.  But knowing SATAN is the evil I need to be delivered from makes it so much easier and honest because I want NO part of him. The focus has changed and I now know the enemy within.  Needless to say my responsibility is to pray at that moment to be delivered from SATAN. That I do want with all my heart. That covers my question concerning repentance which got to be repititious and hopeless.
I will be praying differently and let you know how this new revelation is working. Judy
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 12, 2010, 08:08:35 AM
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I found something Ray said

Hi Judy

Please copy back to us exactly what it was that you found that Ray said that was completely different to how you first understood. Your explaination and experience may help me and perhaps others too.

Thank you :)

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: judith collier on March 13, 2010, 02:16:13 AM
ARC., because I do not know how to find subjects on this forum, I usually go to Ray's other site, the one (I forgot) where he says , "you vipers, etc." And I found this answer to a question. The title is LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION.
Ray said the evil is within, not the object of the evil, like the lust of a man for a woman, the evil is not the woman nor whatever it is we want but know to be wrong. I can't copy so I have to tell you this way, Ray also said the evil is within and the evil is Satan, it (he?) is in our minds and hearts and he (Satan) is the one we need to be delivered from.
But Ray also said God allows this for a time to be tried but not tried by God. And that we should pray to be delivered from the evil. But when Ray says "the more we judge ourselves" the better we get in handling <(my word) temptation. Wherein lies my trouble!!!!!
Judging ourselves says the same thing (to me) as does condemnation. My words again=="I am no good, I am nothing, I am sinful to the core"" does not help me at all but brings on hatred toward myself. Perhaps it is true and there is no doubt as to what we are but it is not helpful to me in the least. So, if Satan is the one (evil) who resides in us, in our minds and hearts then he,(Satan) not me (supposedly a child of God, loved and called and disciplined) needs to be fought against and not myself who is supposedly a new creature in Christ.
It sounds, even to me, like I am saying it is all the Devil's fault but I am not saying that because it is our responsibility to pray at that very moment against this beast. The new me and the evil one are different are we not? Physical vs. spiritual. I do not hate myself when I think like this but rather have renewed and hopeful thinking. I am then convinced  and know I can overcome by the grace of God because Satan is defeated to begin with. Show me if I am off course here. Judy
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 13, 2010, 06:06:41 AM
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Physical vs. spiritual. I do not hate myself when I think like this but rather have renewed and hopeful thinking. I am then convinced  and know I can overcome by the grace of God because Satan is defeated to begin with. Show me if I am off course here. Judy

HOPE is very important Judy. HIS Spirit gives us Hope and a share in His Faith for He has overcome the world and in this we can rejoice in the Spirit Heart and Mind of Christ!

Thanks for explaining. :)

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Kat on March 13, 2010, 12:06:03 PM

Hi Judy,

I think this is the email on the home page that you were talking about.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation ----------

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?

After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."

Then James comes along and says

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MANY." (James 1:13).

And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to

"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!

What is going on here?

Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.

First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."

"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food,  and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).

"...when YOU  FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray
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Judging ourselves says the same thing (to me) as does condemnation. My words again=="I am no good, I am nothing, I am sinful to the core"" does not help me at all but brings on hatred toward myself. Perhaps it is true and there is no doubt as to what we are but it is not helpful to me in the least. So, if Satan is the one (evil) who resides in us, in our minds and hearts then he,(Satan) not me (supposedly a child of God, loved and called and disciplined) needs to be fought against and not myself who is supposedly a new creature in Christ.

No Satan is not IN the chosen, but he will tempt us to sin. That is he will influence us towards things we are weak to resists. We are weak and susceptible to many pulls of the flesh, that is the carnal/beast nature that is within everyone that we are fighting to overcome. So God gives us His Holy Spirit that helps us 'judge' ourselves and overcome this carnal/beast nature.

When we 'judge ourselves' it is a process. First we must RECOGNISE that we have a sin at all. Then every time you think, say or do the sin that you now recognized you have, you must HATE it and you desire not to think, say or do whatever it is any more, this is the beginning of OVERCOMING it. It is a process that takes time though, because every time we think, say or do this particular sin we should catch it quicker and quicker as it happens. If we truly hate it and want to get rid of it we will reach a point that we will be alert to when we notice the sin even comes into our mind and eventually it gets to the point that we can catch it right away and nip it in the bud. If we keep removing even the thought of this sin right away, it should eventually not even enter our mind at all. That is the way I've come to see the overcoming process and that is what I see as judging yourself. All by the grace of God of course.

Here are a couple of emails that should help explain these things .

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg65210.html#msg65210 ---

It doesn't take a great deal of energy for God to make people follow the footsteps that He has established for us. The SLIGHTEST motivations in our finances, stomach, social life, egos, etc., will easily cause us to go either this way or that way.

Of course none of this is of any value unless we can establish it in God's Word. Notice what God says regarding our "steps":

"...It is NOT IN MAN...to direct his steps..." (Jer. 10:23).

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, Matthew]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps!

You question God "FORCING people to do evil." God doesn't have to FORCE people to do evil, we do it NATURALLY. It is our NATURE to do evil and commit sins. As I have said: "We are SINNING MACHINES"! God does not FORCE a man to rob a bank. He robs the bank because he is either in a financial bind or is lazy or is lusting for the easy life. Either way, he VOLUNTEERS to rob the bank. Now. . .what INFLUENCES him to rob the bank. Well, we just listed a few reasons. But what specifically at each step of the process causes him to carry out his deed? Thousands of things. Did he bring about the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of things that influenced (CAUSED) him to follow this path? NO! ABSOLUTE NOT. Where then DID all of it come from? Ultimately we must conclude that it came from GOD! GOD is the Creator. Why even the rotation of earth on its axis CAUSES men to sin!Yes it does. Many people wait until sunset to going about an evening of SINNING--loving the DARKNESS because their deeds are evil.

It's a nice thought that men would come to Jesus and come to God and opening love and adore them. But it's a fantasy. Do we have Scriptural proof of this? HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF VERSES:

"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh [the carnal mind] is ENMITY to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for NEITHER IS IT ABLE" (Rom. 8:6-8).

"Not ONE is just--not even one. Not one is understanding. Not ONE is seeking out God. All AVOID Him... Not one is doing kindness: THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE!" (Rom. 3:11-12).

No, God doesn't need to 'FORCE' people to do evil, neither CAN THEY do good! In fact, Jesus plainly said that:

"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing [Greek: DRAGGING] him" (John 6:44).

Oh yes, we DO have a will, but our will does not NATURALLY do the will of God.
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"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, FOR IT IS GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:12-13).

Even the very "words" that Paul is here speaking to the Philippians are inspired OF GOD to CAUSE these people (and us) to RESPOND to his admonition. Words are powerful. Words CAUSE THINGS TO HAPPEN.  That's why God uses words:

"The WORD of God is LIVING and OPERATIVE, and KEEN above any two-edged sword, and PENETRATING up to the parting of soul and spirit... and is a JUDGE of the sentiments and THOUGHTS OF THE HEART" (Heb. 4:12).
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And, yes, Job did have a choice. He had and made MANY choices during his ordeal. But God sustained Job's integrity and trust in his God. It was ALL of God. Job knew it. And Job PRAISED GOD FOR IT and God blessed Job DOUBLE! I'll be the first to admit that our thoughts are not God's thoughts, but I am beginning to understand them. Praise God that that!

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds? This time I will let Paul answer:

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7848.0.html --------------

When one sins willfully or voluntarily, it means that he has lost his conscience about those particular sins. He feels no guilt nor shame for committing them.  We all sin, but sin is not to "reign" over us, as Paul admonishes.  When we sin, we should recognize it as sin, and feel shame, and repent, and go on. Once we feel no guilt nor shame, there only remains "judgment" which will assuredly remove (through fiery trials and purging) these "adversaries" that plague the human race. Hope that helps.

God be with you,
Ray


Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: MePogo on March 13, 2010, 01:01:28 PM
Whenever the subject of "called" and the "chosen" comes up, I find myself thinking like a little school child.  I want to wave my arms in the air and call out to God "Choose me, please choose me!"  Silly, I know.  But logically I know know the thought is stupid.  I've done nothing to deserve being chosen.  I have known of real heros so much more deserving.  I do believe I am called by Him.  He granted me the eyes and ears.  I am blessed beyond measure.  Still, despite loving God with all my heart, I sin.  I've grown to the point I recognize sin (I think) and sincerely regret my un-Christlike ways.  How difficult it is to love all of mankind.  I don't know where to draw the line between being kind to someone in need and someone with a well-practiced tale of woe who will use you until you have nothing left and then move on to the next victim. 

Christ, Himself, didn't concentrate on the powerful and affluent.  He walked among the common folk, the sick and the hopeless and helpless.  But He was no fool.  (this story is actually funny now) I recall a apparently healthy young man coming to my gate and saying he was hungry.  Did I have a few pesos to spare for a hungry man?  Feeling wise and benevolent, I suggested he sweep my sidewalk outside my wall for enough for a meal.  He appeared shocked.  I handed him a broom which he took and then turned and ran, carrying my broom with him.  Perhaps he could sell the broom for enough to eat.  What would Jesus have done?  Well, so much for me finding goodness in my heart.  My brain overflowed with sinful thoughts.  So, no, I'm not among the chosen.  But still I believe I have the capacity  to be of some small value and I must remain comfortable with that.  My question here is really, is being called but not chosen really so shameful?  Should we try throughout our life, even knowing it's a losing battle, and remain faithful and grateful for what we are given, even though it isn't the ultimate prize?  God's will be done.

Pogo
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: mharrell08 on March 13, 2010, 01:18:09 PM
My question here is really, is being called but not chosen really so shameful?  Should we try throughout our life, even knowing it's a losing battle, and remain faithful and grateful for what we are given, even though it isn't the ultimate prize?  God's will be done.

Pogo


Hello Pogo,

We can never 'try' to be God's Elect...the very word itself, 'chosen', implies that the choice is of God. Since it is all of God, why worry yourself?

He's either choosing you or He's not but you won't know for sure until His Coming, so there's nothing to be anxious about. Whatever spiritual qualities that you need to possess to be one of God's Elect then God will fulfill those in you, you can't do it yourself. It's all of God, so don't fret.


Marques
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Marlene on March 13, 2010, 02:24:06 PM
Pogo, God chooses favour on some now. Not, because of what they do. But, because the Holy Spirit lives in them and is working in them.
But, I look as not being a chosen still a good thing. Because God loves all humanity. We are all going to obtain the reward in the end. Christ is that reward and we will never suffer death again. God is no respector of persons and Loves us all the same. Like Marques , I believe it is nothing about what we have done or have not done. But, what he has done.



In His Love,
Marlene
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on March 14, 2010, 04:08:55 AM

In other words Marques and Marlene,

God does not choose the qualified. He qualifies His chosen!

Arc
Title: Re: called and chosen
Post by: MePogo on March 18, 2010, 03:07:56 AM

In other words Marques and Marlene,

God does not choose the qualified. He qualifies His chosen!

Arc

You folks are awesome.  And, of course, you are all correct.  I loved the quote above.

Pogo