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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: tau on April 03, 2011, 09:23:37 AM
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Hi All
When Jesus said that one would face the greatest challenge from one's house, I thought I could easily overcome them as all I have to do is put His word before everything (in general, I would like to think I succeed). Then I had to deal with the situation of having told and showed my wife countless scripture that a true disciples walk with God is forever progressive and upwards, I then hit a brick wall. My wife think I am not supportive if I tell her that I truelly do not want to attend general church services anymore. I am more than willing to discuss bible with people of the same mindset so we edify each other but i want to worship in truth and in spirit. We are agreed that Jesus said 'why call me Lord and not do what I say?', but her concern is one has held and outgrown so many view points (old church teachings) that my wife think I am confusing her. So, she now asks that I must just do it for her - accompany her to church. I do it but uncomfortably - 'a man who is persuaded against his will is still of the same view'. I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt.
Now I am told I must NEVER dream of having kids out of church (thought about it, never took a position on it as calling is for individuals) We all get called at different times. How does one get around this? Jesus said - if you love your wife more than me, you cannot be my disciples. I am weary of how one is called to run, lest at the end I should also be disqualified! Help!
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Hello tau. Here are some verse for the comfort you so desire.
I hope this is of some edification.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Micah 7:6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
Matt 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matt 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Cor 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
1 Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith,being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Peace...Mark
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Thanks Mark, you just made it painfully obvious!! ;D ;D So, are you suggesting that one continues to attend the service and take it on the chin knowing that all trials and discomfort work on our faith? :-\ Once you know and can now 'HEAR' the WORD, it becomes a bit of a challenge to sit through services especially where you can tell that the truth is being hanged on the line for expediency by the church >:( and you know you can't have an input even at cell meetings as you are always seen as going 'against' what the pastor teaches and therefore 'destroying' the faith of others!! ??? So, when the call to come out of her my people is made, you now for the first time really understand what it means ;D. but thanks for the scriptures, i will bury myself in them!! ;D
regards
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tau...that is a tough one that i would rather a moderator advise you on than myself. In making the best of a bad situation, until you
really get grounded, I would suggest that you not "take on" the church and it's teachings lest you get swallowed up. HOWEVER, in a
non-confrontational way you could jot down notes of the sermon that you feel are contrary to your beliefs and show her (introduce)
her to some of the teachings you know from here and talk about them. Pray about the timing.
I have to do the same thing with my wife and trust the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
This is all I feel comfortable in writing. Will pray for you.
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Hi Tau,
This is just my take on this, no real wisdom here, just my opinion. Certainly this is a difficult thing for you as you have had your eyes opened and you know truth, but your wife is having trouble understanding. You care for her and see she is struggling with leaving church and friends, so you want to make this as easy for her, but you also want to do the best thing for your family. So is to continue to attend and drink the heresy of the church a help her or yourself? I can see that you may want to continue going to church and be a witness against church heresy, to remain silent in the midst of such blatant falsehood would be putting your light under a bushel.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
v. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
But this may cause your wife (and you as well, if you are not well grounded in this truth) more distress than not going to church at all and will surely get you thrown out as well. So this is serious for you as the head of the household and accountable to direct your family on the proper course, as far as you know it to be. Just continue to pray for God to let you know what you should do. I will pray for you as well.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Tau and greetings!
Have you been reading Ray very long and just new to the forum or new all around?? ;)
Your dilemma is serious in your family. It was a few months after being dragged to Ray's site that I quit going to church-but my husband was in complete agreement. Could I have done it on my own?? I honestly don't know.
I can't stand to hear drivel that I don't agree with. But, your wife is precious to you and hasn't had her eyes opened yet. If you are a strong longtime Christian and can read the Bible during the sermon or sleep or whatever maybe you could go.
I still attend a bible study (just so I can go out to lunch w/ my old girlfriends) and somethings drive me nuts but I just don't say anything. But I have been studying this truth for over 5 years and feel pretty confident in what I believe. At lunch, I may insert a kindly word or too about a translation error (aion -age instead of eternal), but mostly my friends remain clueless. One time I even said "I don't believe everything she teaches" and they all just looked at me like my spoon missed my mouth or something!!! Clueless....but I love these gals and want to keep seeing them.
Tau, you must be in prayer and trust your heavenly Father to let you know when, where, what for your life. We can only share our stories, give advice, or show you scripture.
One thing for sure, READ, READ, READ everything over and over again from Ray's site. Keep your Bible handy. Have e sword and the interlinear in Greek/Hebrew on your desktop. And Walk In Love, always!!!
Keep posting on the forum as you struggle thru this. You are not alone!!! Nor are you the first one or unique in this problem.
God Bless you and your wife. You will be in all our prayers!!!!
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Hi Tau
Church with your wife is an hour a week. It is not that much to sacrifice. It certainly is NOT going to affect you, once you have left. One can never go back. At least, I am sure I could not. I would go insane thinking the reality that they blindly accept. It all comes down to what your wife expects. If she thinks you are to change your mind and believe/agree/think as her, then I would have to draw a line. If she knows you are agreeing to accompany her even if you do not agree with all that is said, that seems like a nice compromise. It seems like a loving thing to do. Try to find some common ground. I have many Christian friends who know quite well what I believe and I speak of it often, when I can. I socialize with them. I debate sometimes. But I make sure my actions and my life really really reflect the greatest sign of having Christ in you..your love. Your gentleness. Your love of righteousness. In everything you do, reflect Him.
My wife also does not embrace what I think, because she loves her church. She witnessed my entire struggle, most strongly these last 10 years, and as head of the household she respects them, but they do not really live in her. She cannot see how bad the doctrines are. She loves her parents. She loves the church she grew up in. She cannot face that they all could believe something, in the end is evil. Maybe in theur hearts they don't. I don't know. We do not fight over it. I go most Sundays, out of deference to her, but I have taught all my children what I believe even as they also go to church. I appreciate whatever they preach that is good, somethings are. I sing songs if they speak to my heart. I love all people, even those in church. I really do. You won't win anyone (normally) by scriptural debate. The ground of their heart must be fertile to receive the word. Let your life, your gentleness, your love, your character, be the witness that your beliefs are worthy of God. It is your attitude and heart which is most important, not whether you need to sit through a church sevice once a week. I say just speaking for myself, big deal. So I go to church. That is not much of a sacrifice at all. I worship God 24 hours a day. And everyone who knows me, knows it.
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I LOVE U GUYS!! ;D ;D :D It is at times encouraging to hear how the stelwards of faith are forging on as they assemble themselves before Mount Zion. Yes, church within a church, not bound by hand made structures but thankful that the spirit of the Lord moves amist the church structures gives a comfort. Now, we go direct as the veil of the church has been torn, beautiful! :D, only if all could see as you do :o! I take comfort in reading 2 Peter 2, all of it. Agreed, not all that is taught in the church is bad or wrong, but its the subtle deception and play on truth which is done so cleverly as almost to deceive even the elect that gets to one. And when you point it out and scripturally back it up, you are seen as if you are continuously looking for faults, I guess then there must be too many ;D ;D! The church members general take on what is being taught is gun, stock and barrel, there is no getting around it. I like questioning things and if someone gives me back up scriptures or evidance on any issue for that matter, I concede and accept a higher view. I 'study' though what is presented so I can make it my own, lest I also fall into the trap of accepting things on face value! :D , its the getting emotional that really gets to me ;D ;D, when it comes to what the Holy Scriptures say, most people just accept without questioning lest they offend God, or is it the pastor or church ???. I normally keep quite which at times is seen as not being interested at matters of God, except when at home and engage with my wife on what the holy scriptures say, then I light up!! and she says 'this is hard sayings', i tell her but they are in your bible and at some stage since you have passion for the Lord, you will have to realise that if its misplaced, it will be as painful an experience the 5 virgins that almost made it had ::) then she ponders.
But I really appreciate all the input and it somehow makes this journey less lonely. At times one wishes all could see what one see, 'for once i was blind, but now i see', that is the most beautiful saying i ever read anywhere in a very long time! I just love you guys and I will put on the full armor of God, so after all is said and done, i will continue to stand! ;D ;D ;)
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DougE6---wooo preach it brother!!! Love is key isn't it?? spiritually leaving Babylon is more important than if you physically walk into a building...I know God will bless you for your love for your wife!
Tau-- :D You seem more relaxed and happy!! Praise God!
both of your posts blessed me!!
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Hi All
When Jesus said that one would face the greatest challenge from one's house, I thought I could easily overcome them as all I have to do is put His word before everything (in general, I would like to think I succeed). Then I had to deal with the situation of having told and showed my wife countless scripture that a true disciples walk with God is forever progressive and upwards, I then hit a brick wall. My wife think I am not supportive if I tell her that I truelly do not want to attend general church services anymore. I am more than willing to discuss bible with people of the same mindset so we edify each other but i want to worship in truth and in spirit. We are agreed that Jesus said 'why call me Lord and not do what I say?', but her concern is one has held and outgrown so many view points (old church teachings) that my wife think I am confusing her. So, she now asks that I must just do it for her - accompany her to church. I do it but uncomfortably - 'a man who is persuaded against his will is still of the same view'. I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt.
Now I am told I must NEVER dream of having kids out of church (thought about it, never took a position on it as calling is for individuals) We all get called at different times. How does one get around this? Jesus said - if you love your wife more than me, you cannot be my disciples. I am weary of how one is called to run, lest at the end I should also be disqualified! Help!
Hello Tau,
First, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife regarding your situation.
Thankfully, my wife has been pretty receptive of my new beliefs (well, it was new 3 years ago...), probably because the church doctrines weren't grounded into her like they were me and many others. She was raised in church, but her family isn't as "religious" as many others are. Though, this being said, she has put me in this similar situation a few times. We went to visit her grandparents for Mother's Day the past two years, they all attended church, and I met then afterwards for lunch. Before going she tried to convince me to go to church also because "it was Mother's Day", and she also tried to pull the "do it for me" card. I told that I loved her, and I respected her, and requested that she would also respect me by not forcing me to go somewhere I didn't want to go. She was reluctant at first, but agreed nonetheless; we all met for lunch afterwards and all was well. Her family didn't question me for not attending church, and I didn't say anything disrespectful while they were discussing what took place in church. (not that sharing the truth would have been disrespectful, I just didn't feel that was the right place or time; besides if God had something to say to them through me, He would have said it anyway).
I know several people here face a ton of adversity from their families and friends and I pray for you all daily. I have yet to meet any from my family or friends, though I know it's coming eventually (I have a few uncles in particular who I know are dying to speak to me regarding some of the things I've showed my mom... personally I can't wait!).
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Hi Tau,
We each must walk the walk alone with Christ. The Spirit Will and Does keep us wherever we may go. Short story, my wife of 36+ years now, thinks i am a lost heretic, most others think so too btw. But i have learned that what i feel matters not, and she is one of those little one that Jesus said: it is better to put a millstone around our own neck and be cast into the sea, than harm them. So then it must be very important for you to walk that walk and learn how to work all things together (just like your Father From Above).
Today she still believes that John Hagee and Joel Osteen are her teachers, and guess what, i no longer get upset or even try hard to show her any errors. My reason, when Christ Is Ready, she will, like i was, be dragged kicking and spitting mad, to The Throne Of Grace. So rest and learn how to be God-Like in this small task brother, it is easier to learn when not kicking against the pricks.
(Phillips NT) Php 2:12-13 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
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hello tau. you have received some excellent advice and counsel to your questions. duane gave a good idea about going with your wife and writing down some things you hear being preached, which you have been shown by His Spirit are heresy/false teachings. then showing your wife at home, using the things ray has shared with us regarding truths of the scriptures on the specific things you wrote down from the sermon. great place to start with her i think.
also, remember the commandment given to 'come out of her my people, mystery babylon' is another example of first the physical, then the spiritual. the final removal of yourself from the physical church, may be done in increments for your specific situation. only our Father Creator knows the outcome. but, He has begun a good work in you. only He can. He is not finished with you, or with your wife. be patient and take this to Him often in prayer. He is faithful, and can be trusted. :) please let us know how things progress.
claudia
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One of the highlights of each day is reading everyone's posts! It is so encouraging to see us propping each other up as we all climb our own family/relative "mountains".
J'ever feel like the one who resisted all the teachers, scholars, philosophers and scientists,
plus religious leaders back in Columbus's/Magellon's day--when it was a KNOWN, PROVEABLE, and UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED FACT that the earth was flat; and, the sun revolved around the earth? Sometimes the HERESY cost "ALTERNATE THINKERS" their heads! (Certainly "our kind" were the laughing stocks and "family embarrassments" in society.)
Like us, "SELECTED" people probably wondered "why is it ME that has to realize the scientific truth and "buck the comfortable mainstream" with my radical thinking!
But, NOW that I DO KNOW W H A T I know, how could I ever go BACK to believing the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth! WHY did God "bless" ME with the insight--like it or not?! Is it MY job to convince others of scientific fact or let God "open minds"?
Now, should I be "good"- and accompany my loved one to "class" and hear the next anticipated lecture on "Earth Flatness and Topography"? Will I be able to shut up about "gravity" and AVOID ASKING why the oceans don't drain off the edge of the earth?
They say "it's lonely at the top!" but "it's lonely being 'the few'" also! Be faithful to truth!
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So, are you suggesting that one continues to attend the service and take it on the chin knowing that all trials and discomfort work on our faith?
Hello tau.
It matters not what I have to say but rather what The Word of God has to say.If we do not live by every word then surely we do a disservice to Jesus and His Father.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
The coat of many colors that symbolizes Gods Truths and purpose for His chosen should be worn and not hung in a closet somewhere,out of site.
Gen 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.
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When we participate in worldly church matters we do not let our true light shine.
Luk 11:33 No man, when the light has been lighted, puts it in a secret place, or under a vessel, but on its table, so that those who come in may see the light.
When we come out of her others will see we have been faithful to Gods Word and not to false doctrine.
Col 1:21 And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles"
Col 1:22 by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight,
We must die to self so that we may live.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Rom 6:13 ...Yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Being a watchman has high accountability and just rewards.
Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
And of course the reward is...
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
We must always keep The Word and overcome babylon and in return The Word will keep us.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Peace...Mark
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Hi Mark
That is all very well and good, what you wrote, and I was edified by reading it, and encouraged to press on to the high calling by reading it, but going from the general principles you cited to the specific circumstance, in addressing Tau's question, what are you counseling? Hopefully not too hard a line?
How about these scriptures, that are also part of the every word that comes from the mouth of God? These scriptures that directly tell us how to treat others, specially our wives and husbands?
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives, as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself.
What is Love? What is the definition of love?
Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
1Co 13:5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
1Co 13:6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
1Co 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never ends.
Love doesn't insist on its own way. It endures unpleasantness. It always hopes. It doesn't give up. Love will bear the weakness of the weaker. If someone has less faith, and they can't see what I see, how should I act towards them? How did Paul treat weaker brothers in the faith, who still thought eaten food sacrificed to idols had power, or other weak false doctrines, like believing some days were better than others?
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
I bear with my the less complete understanding of Gods ways and plans with others (like my wife) in my family with love. I am willing to IN LOVE to subject myself to things that are less than my spiritual understanding. And who is to say that I am in any whit better? Jesus judgment seat will bring everything to light.
But as far as meeting people where they are at; have I not done the same in the non spiritual realm many times when I play with my kids? of course! I know multivariable calculus and differential equations. Do I talk to my fifth grader of such? LOL. When my kids were babies I spoke baby language to them. And it was entirely appropriate.
How should a believer treat a non believing spouse? Lets see what the scriptures say....
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
e 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
1Pe 3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,
1Pe 3:2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct.
Here Paul says that a wife could win over her unbeleiving husband by good conduct, without even a word!! Why cant men do the same?
I think one should do whatever is the most loving in every situation. Why? because your superior knowledge and faith is subservient to love.....
1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
All your works and understandings are not more important than how you treat your spouse, and how you treat your neighbor. And the correct path in any situation must be carefully put through the LOVE test. And I will try to win my spouse with Godly nuturing and forbearance, especially if I feel that is what God is calling me to do, especially in light of these scriptures.
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DougE6, Amen and Amen. Bob, Leesburg FL.
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I already see an area I typed in this post that needs to be corrected....! :o
He will show you even if you mess up and do the wrong thing. He always knows how to get people back on the right path.
We don't "mess up" I guess. I still have a long way to go. Just an example of how much the heresies taught can have a lasting effect from wrong teaching.
On the contrary, we "mess up" all the time. That's what "sin" means--to miss the mark, make a mistake, i.e. "mess up". Just because we were 'caused' to do it by various influences surrounding us, and just because God already 'knew' in advance that we would do it, doesn't mean we didn't "mess up". Hope this helps :D
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are you counseling? Hopefully not too hard a line?
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Hello DougE6.
I do not see how loving your spouse [or to love in general] correlates to not coming out of the babylonian system of things.Are you saying that we must stay grounded in the evil doctrine of the worldly church in order to have approval of our wife,kids,friends or neighbors? To leave behind our carnal way of thinking and to keep His Spiritual Commandments is how we are to give God all of the Praise and Glory.This is the greatest act of love a man can do for His Creator.The general principles that you speak of in the Scripture I posted are for the Spiritually mature,not babes in Christ [I am assuming that tau has read Rays material]. We must come out of her and stay out of her if we are to finish the race,and be faithful to the end. If God has you in the church of satan to soothe the non believer,well,that's ok, because that is where God will have you to be.But when we do not abide in His Word, the truths that we have been given will also be taken away if we do not obey the Holy Spirit.
When we obey God in Spirit and Truth that is true love that we can rejoice in. Just as the wife must submit to the husband so shall the husband and the wife submit to Christ,he is our head and we are the body.When Jesus is the focus of our lives then and only then can one have a full understanding of what it is to love our family members as we ought.If we have a true yearning and commitment to follow Christ and to love Him as we should,we then can begin to live by every word of Christ.
When we put the physical in front of the Spiritual the only thing left is judgement.All Scripture is for the admonition of Gods true Faithful and when one lives His words from without and not from within, the Door in the heavens cannot be opened and His True doctrine cannot be given.As Ray has said so often once you learn a Spiritual Truth,don't ever let it go.To me that is some sound advice from a sound teacher.
Peace...Mark
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If God has you in the church of satan
OK, Hi Mark :)
How do you know if I could/might/possibly be one of these?.. ???
Rev 3:4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
or these? ???....Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
or these? ???....Rev 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
or these? ???... Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life....
or these? ??? Rev 2:13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
Or, maybe these? ???.....Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Rev 2:25 Only hold fast what you have until I come.
Rev 2:26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
In case it was not understood, these are taken from the seven churches where Jesus was walking in their midst. He gave correction and praise, both. And some received both praise and correction, at the same time.
Notice Jesus has some good things to say about some of the people in some of these churches. How is this possible? Even in these churches where satans throne is. He clearly said some had the "right stuff" to rule with him. Some had the right doctrines, the right heart, the right teachings. Is being physically present in a Church going to negate my heart, my love, my obedience, my holding on to Him? Is the physical building that strong? I say that only rhetorically. I know you know the answer. You know the building, the physical is not the Spiritual.
I am only speaking like this cause of what I took as your implication, in that highlited statement. You do not understand how I can out of Love do what I do, and give forbearance to my wife, or others, and still remain out of babylon. Fine. But I do. And I am at peace that Jesus will judge all motives and hearts someday. Including mine :-[ And He will decide who was actually in Babylon and who wasn't. Actually, to the point, He will judge our works. And whether our works were motivated by love, and done in love, and put others before ourselves.
I do not have any quarrel with your understanding of how we are to OBEY Jesus. I so agree with that. I just do not think you understand/see that love is higher than all doctrine in the SAME manner as I do. So we have different viewpoints. I myself, would rather be totally obedient to Him in love and love all others as He does, than have all the correct doctrinal understanding in the world. And this is from one who painfully wrestled for 17 years, because of my love for my fellow man, to wrest myself from the doctrine of eternal torment, because it was too horrible for me to hold, even though I was raised and believed fully in the strictest fundamentalist baptist church doctrine out there, for YEARS, from the tender age of 12. And this was even before I read any of Ray Smiths wonderful writings. I am grateful to Ray for filling in many of the gaps I would never been able to. But even with all that, I still would rather have love for Christ, shed abroad in my heart, motivating me to pure obedience, to loving righteousness and hating wickedness, dying to myself, than have all the correct understandings that I now have (except that I could not EVER believe in eternal punishment, for that belief was destroying me) and not have this love and obey just because it was a rule. I think true spirituality is measured in the depth of your dying to self and the amount of how much you obey Christ and do His works, out of Love.
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Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:
Mat 5:44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Mat 5:45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same?
Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Christendom is the enemy of the truth, not by free will but being caused to be that way, they are the enemy of the truth. We are commanded to love them and to not hold them in contempt. To go to the church building with your wife might not be the husbands or wife's best choice of places to be but knowing that God will work it out for him or her in His time, is it not reason enough for the husband to love his wife in her time of weakness of the truth and endure for a season together with her the tasteless tales of Christendom? I think so.
Are we concerned that we might be braking or not keeping one of the commandments?
Mat 22:35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:
Mat 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.
We follow all of the commandments if we follow these two. Personally, I don't get hung up on whether or not I'm slipping on a commandment or missing the mark here or there since knowing that I am striving to follow these two.
Where was Jesus when He answered the Scribes and Pharisees? I'd say right smack in the middle of the church. He loved them all, He went to church with what would some day be His wife. Knowing full well her weakness but enduring it all, suffering to the bitter end knowing the outcome will be glorious in that she would come around to the knowledge of the truth.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jesus went the distance for a unbelieving bride. Can we not do the same for the weaker of the two in our marriages? I think so.
Are there consequences for going to church. Sure there are. It would not be a pleasant place to be for any of us that are believers of the truth. However, Jesus is the keeper of our salvation, not us. He is the builder of it all, the One that laid the ground work and the Finisher of the whole thing. We cannot guard against our salvation by not attending the church building. We cannot save our soul by keeping away from certain things, or this and that. Nope, Jesus is the keeper. In the end, it wont matter whether or not we attended church with our un-believing husbands or wives, why? Because,
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I am full aware that we are commanded to "come out of her". We ARE "out of her" whether we go to the church building or not. It makes no difference. God has dragged us out of her. That much is done. We cannot un-do that part by going to the church building.
Tau you ask,
"I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt."
My opinion is yes it is OK.
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Tau, I just hope you haven't arrived at this point in the discourse believing that you can't love your wife unless you go to church with her.
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Hi Doug,
I thought it would be good to bring out what Ray has to say about the churches in Revlation. These excerpts are from articles no. 7 and 11.
http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html ----------------------
THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS TO ALL CHURCHES, IN ALL GENERATIONS, FOR ALL WHO READ THIS PROPHECY, WHEN JESUS OPENS IT TO THEM, IN THEIR OWN LIFETIME (which comes quickly and is over shortly)!
v
Were there not churches (congregations) also in Judea as well? Even in Rome? Why only the seven churches "in ASIA?" Because these seven congregations completed all that Jesus had to say to all congregations, everywhere. This is a COMPLETE revelation for ALL CHURCHES. These seven congregations had within them all of the sins, weaknesses, and shortcomings of all congregations everywhere during ALL TIME. I will make this abundantly and Scripturally clear. But on the positive side, all of the churches had at least a "few names" that were not spiritually defiled, and who will be in the first resurrection as Sons and Daughters of God to bring the rest of the harvest, the great fall harvest into the Kingdom.
These churches that personify in symbol all of God’s church for the past two thousand years, are in fact, the training ground and the proving ground for the elect. Coming out of this carnal system puts one among the called and the chosen and the VERY elect. Paul called it "the HIGH CALLING."
v
Is any so foolish as to think Jesus tells all seven churches to "…hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (all the other plural churches), so that they can compare themselves among themselves and see which one Jesus thinks is the holiest of them all? That is nonsense!
ALL seven churches individually, have ALL the problems and ALL the strengths of all the churches combined. It is ONE prophecy, of ONE church, in ONE hand of Jesus, which combine the characteristics of seven churches in Asia that shared all of the good qualities and all of the shortcomings.
v
It is, of course, the members of the church that have "left their first love." Here is absolute proof that the churches of Revelation personify the whole Church of God down through the centuries until the great white throne judgment.
Whatever is found in the seven (the complete) churches of Revelation is also found in the Churches from the time of John’s vision until the judgment of the world. This vision shows not only the conditions in God’s Church at the time of John’s vision, but of the condition of the Church right down till the judgment of the world.
Revelation is "The Revelation OF Jesus Christ."
v
Just as all the rewards are promised to all the overcomers in all generations of the Church, so likewise, do all the sins and shortcomings apply to all the churches throughout all generations. And the sins and shortcomings of God’s Church are monstrous!
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have REACHED UNTO HEAVEN, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 8:5).
Yes, God is talking about His people, who are in His church, but … BUT, who must nonetheless, "REPENT" (Rev. 2:5 & 5, 16, 21, 22, 3:3, 19—seven times, COMPLETE REPENTANCE), and "COME OUT OF HER." Coming out of her is no small part of this "repentance."
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html --------------------
Does not Jesus dwell and reside in the Seven Churches of God mentioned in the Book of Revelation? Actually, He does not. Let’s read it:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says He that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who WALKS in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (Rev. 2:1).
Jesus Christ "walks" in the midst of the churches—He does not dwell there; He does not reside there; He does not have His throne there. But someone else does:
SATAN has his "seat [Greek: ‘throne’]" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13)
SATAN "dwells" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13).
SATAN still has his "synagogue" in the Churches (Rev. 2:9 & 3:9).
SATAN’S "depths" of doctrinal evils are in the Churches (Rev. 2:24).
It is Satan who has his "throne" in the Churches--the Throne of Jesus Christ is in Heaven with His Father (Rev. 3:21), not in the church. He is not enthroned in the Church; He merely "walks" in the Churches.
v
Virtually all Christian Churches worldwide have within their doctrines, the depths of Satan. And that is why the cry goes out from God Almighty:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying ‘COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).
Come out of… who? Who is the "her?" Her is a WOMAN. A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a CHURCH.
Who is to "come out?" Answer: "MY people." Where are they? In her, in the CHURCH. What Church? The MOTHER CHURCH. Who is the MOTHER CHURCH?
The church that appears to be so good, with good doctrines, and good teachings and spiritual appearing good works and righteousness, which in reality are abominations:
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto you the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sits upon many waters [many nations of people]: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication [intimate religious/political/economic relationships], and the inhabitants of the earth have been made [spiritually] DRUNK with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of ABOMINATIONS and FILTHINESS of her FORNICATION: And upon her forehead [where WE should have the name of God our Father, Rev. 14:1, but this mother church has instead…] …a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON, THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:1-5).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Dave
Not quiet, for me its more of a balancing act ::), if love is the greatest commandment and the first love is to God the Father, then every word that comes from Him should be carefully considered. I am of the view that one carries a whole lot of responsibility once one's eyes are open. The process has to be progressively upwards, it is incremental gains, yet now and then you come to a cross roads and having carefully considered the two, you are not sure which one is best - true, not going to church with my wife does not necessarily mean i love her less, thats me, it is however another thing whether her interpretation will be the same as mine. it also has a potential to have spill over effects in affecting general family interactions and might make it even harder to try and convince\show ??? her of a higher responsibility following God is all about - as she could (as a way of axample) switch-off in protest, not having been given what to her was support - an act of love. I am painfully aware that the spiritual follows the physical, but finding myself having to restle between being a supportive (loving, longsuffering, peace loving and enduring) husband and one who leaves by the code (being a disciple is no different from being a God soldier) yet even a soldier needs to be weary of personal conduct less it badly affects those dependant on the soldier's moral campass.
So, having wrestled for a while with; 'do i or do i not' ::), i saw it fit to ask the fellow athlets ;D in Christ how they best would advise of such, we are instructed to run by rules and we are instructed to love, we are instructed to divide the word of truth correctly and still we are required to expose those who contradict, even more we are asked to follow ways of peace with all men and we are asked to be BOLD in the world as Christ was. So, for some of us we are greatful of a forum such as this one, where we could ask and get sound advise. Sure, at the end the decision is still ours, but better an informed and tried and tested decision, than an arbitrary one ;D ;D
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OK, Hi Mark
How do you know if I could/might/possibly be one of these?..
Hi Doug.
If God is calling you to be of the elect,then you are all of the seven churches as Ray explains in Kats post. Living His word from Genesis thru Revelation in Spirit is the high calling for those with ears to hear and eyes to see.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Those that the Father are calling now through our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ, will live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth. Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ in you,to be lived now, in your life, now. If it were not so then these verse would be false.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Also here are some of Rays email reply's concerning the babylonian church and its effect on ones mindset.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2690.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,102.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11315.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1188.0.html
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
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Hello Doug,
(Apologies, as I know your response was to Mark) but I would just like to respond by pointing out that there is only "one" church--which is the body of Christ, and the House of God (1 Timothy 3:15), inside which are both honorable and dishonorable things (2 Timothy 2:20). My point is that even those of us who are no longer attending any church of Babylon are still members of the same "church" as they are. Therefore, one does not need to be physically attending a church to be one of these "few" mentioned in these verses you quoted.
That being said, when it comes to whether or not you should continue to attend a church service to appease your wife, or whoever, in my opinion--that's between you and God. Personally, I stay away, mainly because I have a natural tendency to open my mouth and I'd probably stir up some sort of situation of which I don't feel I'm prepared for yet nor would it likely result in anything good. Should God desire me to enter a "synagogue of Satan" someday, I know He'll drag me there and guide me in my endeavors. But for now, I stay far away.
Hope this was helpful. God Be With You.
If God has you in the church of satan
OK, Hi Mark :)
How do you know if I could/might/possibly be one of these?.. ???
Rev 3:4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
or these? ???....Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
or these? ???....Rev 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
or these? ???... Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life....
or these? ??? Rev 2:13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
Or, maybe these? ???.....Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Rev 2:25 Only hold fast what you have until I come.
Rev 2:26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
In case it was not understood, these are taken from the seven churches where Jesus was walking in their midst. He gave correction and praise, both. And some received both praise and correction, at the same time.
Notice Jesus has some good things to say about some of the people in some of these churches. How is this possible? Even in these churches where satans throne is. He clearly said some had the "right stuff" to rule with him. Some had the right doctrines, the right heart, the right teachings. Is being physically present in a Church going to negate my heart, my love, my obedience, my holding on to Him? Is the physical building that strong? I say that only rhetorically. I know you know the answer. You know the building, the physical is not the Spiritual.
I am only speaking like this cause of what I took as your implication, in that highlited statement. You do not understand how I can out of Love do what I do, and give forbearance to my wife, or others, and still remain out of babylon. Fine. But I do. And I am at peace that Jesus will judge all motives and hearts someday. Including mine :-[ And He will decide who was actually in Babylon and who wasn't. Actually, to the point, He will judge our works. And whether our works were motivated by love, and done in love, and put others before ourselves.
I do not have any quarrel with your understanding of how we are to OBEY Jesus. I so agree with that. I just do not think you understand/see that love is higher than all doctrine in the SAME manner as I do. So we have different viewpoints. I myself, would rather be totally obedient to Him in love and love all others as He does, than have all the correct doctrinal understanding in the world. And this is from one who painfully wrestled for 17 years, because of my love for my fellow man, to wrest myself from the doctrine of eternal torment, because it was too horrible for me to hold, even though I was raised and believed fully in the strictest fundamentalist baptist church doctrine out there, for YEARS, from the tender age of 12. And this was even before I read any of Ray Smiths wonderful writings. I am grateful to Ray for filling in many of the gaps I would never been able to. But even with all that, I still would rather have love for Christ, shed abroad in my heart, motivating me to pure obedience, to loving righteousness and hating wickedness, dying to myself, than have all the correct understandings that I now have (except that I could not EVER believe in eternal punishment, for that belief was destroying me) and not have this love and obey just because it was a rule. I think true spirituality is measured in the depth of your dying to self and the amount of how much you obey Christ and do His works, out of Love.
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I'll leapfrog back over to Tau. I understand what you're saying. I'm not all that worried about being wrong if I am at least trying to do right. This is the Lord's world and His creation. I have great faith that He will correct me when I'm thinking/believing/doing wrong, just as I have great experience with thinking/believing/doing wrong. I 'came out of her' 20 years before I ever knew there WAS such a commandment. :D Jesus is Lord.
I would have chimed in earlier (and won't again unless asked directly) but I had a feeling that the 'answer' was in the question, as it often is. "I want to know is it okay to still go with my wife (show of support) even if I generally find church teaching a bit tolarable if taken with a pinch of salt."
For me, the conundrum would be whether to chain her to the porch on the sabbath or sunday or allow her to experience this evil on her own with Jesus as her Lord. :) Which one of those is love?
I don't envy your brain right now. Those synapses firing can scorch your skull. I'm quite content for now, and can't see myself going back except to get my turn to preach. I'm not ready for that unless dragged before the rulers without time to think about what I should say. He crushes my plans.
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Wow I can't really add to any of the great scriptural points that have been laid out by everyone else so I will just throw in my 2 cents and personal experience. I am very lucky in that my wife and I have bible studies together and she is not "entrenched" in any particular religion. She did for awhile though still want to attend church trying to find the "right" one. It was through reading these posts and the BT site that I came to the conclusion that I would support her. I would go to church when asked and I didn't criticize any particular religion. And I prayed and trusted in Gods will. She came around on her own and it actually was the trinity that got her asking questions. I really didn't answer her in any specific way as she tunes me out when I sound "bossy" ( her words lol) We just kept doing a simple bible study of the gospels and after the first two books she said "if there is an equal trinity Jesus didn't talk about it much" lol God opened the door for her and guided her through..I was just there for the ride :)
I'm sorry if this doesn't help you as our situations are different but I believe the end result can be the same. Sometimes we just have to be patient and get out of Gods way! :D
Also I always took that parable about the "house" being divided against itself as a symbol of Christianity in general with all the different "denominations" (or sects) all saying they were for Jesus while really being blind naked..etc. I guess both ways are correct as the division in church can be taken and felt at home.
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God will bring all to the truth.
I think you're both right.
I like that statement. I think it is true. I like Marky Marks last post, too. Just wanted to put that out there. Tau, I appreciate your last answer post too. As anyone who has lived it, can attest, it is a hard tightrope to walk. It really makes one take a really hard look at everything, because it is so up close and personal! I feel peace in my heart, in the way God is allowing it to unfold, in my situation, and someone else may have a another way, that God is telling them to go, to get peace. Peace, I think, the fruit of a clean conscience, is the ultimate test of whether we are following His leading.
Thank you all for your deep thoughts. It was great to read them. Sometimes, I am very passionate in my expression, I truly try to keep it in check..I use to be quite the evangelist and still am, even to open air preaching. Just so you know how my personality clicks.
Doug
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Considering where this thread has gone,and how wonderful The Word of God is,I felt the following verse would be edifying to all involved. May we all continue in Spirit and Truth and to seek that which we all so passionately desire,that being,Christ in us.
GW
Php 3:12 It's not that I've already reached the goal or have already completed the course. But I run to win that which Jesus Christ has already won for me.
Php 3:13 Brothers and sisters, I can't consider myself a winner yet. This is what I do: I don't look back, I lengthen my stride, and
Php 3:14 I run straight toward the goal to win the prize that God's heavenly call offers in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Whoever has a mature faith should think this way. And if you think differently, God will show you how to think.
Php 3:16 However, we should be guided by what we have learned so far.
Peace...Mark
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2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
I hope I can say that at the end :)
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For all the input I got I am eternally greatful. I hope that what has been shared here has been as uplifting and spiritl quenching as any physical food. This indeed has been what Christ was refering to when he asked Peter to feed His flock. Real meat, for the matured and not babes in Christ. This indeed is the race, so here I go - 'there's a race to be ran, there are victories to be won, give me power - every hour - to be true!! ;)
I salute you all. ;D I hope to return back sometime in future to give account of how God eventually settled this one, but don't be holding your breath for any early breakthroughs, just ask Abraham how long he had to wait to have God fulfil the promise to give him a child!! :D
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Eph 12- 13.
Love and Peace to ALL ;D
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Doug, I had been thinking along the same lines, though I couldn't say them with your eloquence. Another Amen!
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For all the input I got I am eternally greatful. I hope that what has been shared here has been as uplifting and spiritl quenching as any physical food. This indeed has been what Christ was refering to when he asked Peter to feed His flock. Real meat, for the matured and not babes in Christ. This indeed is the race, so here I go - 'there's a race to be ran, there are victories to be won, give me power - every hour - to be true!! ;)
I salute you all. ;D I hope to return back sometime in future to give account of how God eventually settled this one, but don't be holding your breath for any early breakthroughs, just ask Abraham how long he had to wait to have God fulfil the promise to give him a child!! :D
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Eph 12- 13.
Greetings to All
I would like to first apologise for the long e-mail!! ;D
As I promised at one stage that I will return to give account of how the "Greatest Challenge" will play its self out, I thought it fit and proper to give an update!! To say that it has been easy to date will really be an understatement, I went through a period of highs and lows struggling with the question "to go for show of support or not", the few time I felt pressurised to attend and did attend, I became more convinced that I really no longer belonged to church, something had really changed and i would horn in on what the pastor was saying and would feel short changed spiritually as most of what he was teaching did not feel spiritually enriching, i felt like i am going backwards and trying to 'fit in' was not working!.
Overtime I indicated to my wife reasons why i want to completely stop attending and would go through some of the church material with her and point out where travesty was being committed with the word of God and how I found it difficult to praise and worship while fully knowing what was being taught not to rhyme with what i believe the scriptures were teaching. My wife eventually relented and as we continued to discuss and share the scriptures, she eventually started to tell me that she herself is starting to think that the pastor is short changing people and she can instanteneously pick up when the pastor is being creative with the truth, the fact that the church is forever tying earthly success to being spiritually rewarded begun to weigh heavy on her, worse, those that are seen as struggling, are looked at as if they have done something wrong!! :'(, this convinced her to let me be. Now my wife prefers that we discuss the bible together, she herself, has not been to church in a while and in a way she says she does not feel like she is missing a lot, she is forever going on about how much one really needs to study the word of God! In my book, this is real progress and I call it a miracle of God! What took years to built God is able to demolish in the shortest time possible and start rebuilding something spiritual.
Amen!
Love and Peace to ALL ;D
[edited to fix the quotation function]-Dave
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I'm thankful for your testimony, and thankfuller that God is reordering your family.
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are you counseling? Hopefully not too hard a line?
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Hello DougE6.
I do not see how loving your spouse [or to love in general] correlates to not coming out of the babylonian system of things.Are you saying that we must stay grounded in the evil doctrine of the worldly church in order to have approval of our wife,kids,friends or neighbors? To leave behind our carnal way of thinking and to keep His Spiritual Commandments is how we are to give God all of the Praise and Glory.This is the greatest act of love a man can do for His Creator.The general principles that you speak of in the Scripture I posted are for the Spiritually mature,not babes in Christ [I am assuming that tau has read Rays material]. We must come out of her and stay out of her if we are to finish the race,and be faithful to the end. If God has you in the church of satan to soothe the non believer,well,that's ok, because that is where God will have you to be.But when we do not abide in His Word, the truths that we have been given will also be taken away if we do not obey the Holy Spirit.
When we obey God in Spirit and Truth that is true love that we can rejoice in. Just as the wife must submit to the husband so shall the husband and the wife submit to Christ,he is our head and we are the body.When Jesus is the focus of our lives then and only then can one have a full understanding of what it is to love our family members as we ought.If we have a true yearning and commitment to follow Christ and to love Him as we should,we then can begin to live by every word of Christ.
When we put the physical in front of the Spiritual the only thing left is judgement.All Scripture is for the admonition of Gods true Faithful and when one lives His words from without and not from within, the Door in the heavens cannot be opened and His True doctrine cannot be given.As Ray has said so often once you learn a Spiritual Truth,don't ever let it go.To me that is some sound advice from a sound teacher.
Peace...Mark
Hi Tau,
You have received well rounded reception of information & answers from most veteran Forum Members & others. Mark's (Marky Mark) response above essentially covers my Scriptural advice to you. Although many have provided sound advice from Scripture, the above counsel are the facts, whether We(That's all of us) Carnally like it or not. Before listing those Scriptural Verses that come to mind when considering attending "Church Services" with a Wife or anyone for that matter, I will attempt to a few comments.
Loving Ones Wife does not require that any of us participate in any of Christendom's Denominations. Now, I'm not referring to a Wedding Ceremony, Funeral or some occasional Ceremonial function, although even in those cases, I would proceed with caution. The following Scriptural references at 1Peter.3:7(assigning them honor as to a weaker vessel); Ephesians. 5:23-25(Husbands, Love your Wife, as Christ loved the Congregation, giving himself up for it); Ephesians. 5:28,29(Husbands should be loving their Wives as their own Bodies); Ephesians. 5:33(Let everyone of you Love His Wife); Colossians. 3:19(Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them). I paraphrased these Scriptural verses due to time constraints. I looked up the word "Love" in all of these verses and all of them are some form of Agape, not the Philia type Love(tenderly affectionate, close Brotherly Love or Familial Love). So, Loving One's Wife or Husband would not necessitate attending a Church Service that might violate one's conscience. Actually, by compromising oneself in this regard, it might open the door for further compromise leading to, at least the possibility of partaking more Spiritual poison. To illustrate: If I had a Glass of water to give you in order to quench your thirst and it consisted of 95% water, but only 5% of it contained a deadly poison, would you drink it knowingly. Apply this spiritually speaking. If your Wife see's you compromise in what might appear to be a "Minor" issue, She may(not necessarily deliberately) attempt to get you to compromise on more Church related stuff.
It was suggested to Me, many years ago, by an Older mature Male to give in & give up to One's Wife in every matter, unless the compromise involves displeasing God or might bring some type of harm to the Family, ie- financial problems, legal issues, etc. So, I essentially do the things the way my Wife likes things, unless it goes contrary to Scripture or brings harm to Our Family. Below are Scriptures that come to mind in regards to Why I won't attend Church Services, Bible Studies or any Type of Spiritual fellowship that contradicts, at least the basics that I've learned & accepted. Read Below !
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Pro 16:19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
Pro 16:20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
1Co 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
Be careful Tau, don't compromise for the wrong things, the scriptural example below, although physically happened, it has much spiritual value & meaning and I see much of my past experiences with the veaker vessel portrayed through this Character mentioned below.
Jdg 16:6 And Delilah said to Samson, Tell me, I pray thee, wherein thy great strength lieth, and wherewith thou mightest be bound to afflict thee.
Jdg 16:7 And Samson said unto her, If they bind me with seven green withs that were never dried, then shall I be weak, and be as another man.
Jdg 16:8 Then the lords of the Philistines brought up to her seven green withs which had not been dried, and she bound him with them.
Jdg 16:9 Now there were men lying in wait, abiding with her in the chamber. And she said unto him, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he brake the withs, as a thread of tow is broken when it toucheth the fire. So his strength was not known.
Jdg 16:10 And Delilah said unto Samson, Behold, thou hast mocked me, and told me lies: now tell me, I pray thee, wherewith thou mightest be bound.
Jdg 16:11 And he said unto her, If they bind me fast with new ropes that never were occupied, then shall I be weak, and be as another man.
Jdg 16:12 Delilah therefore took new ropes, and bound him therewith, and said unto him, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And there were liers in wait abiding in the chamber. And he brake them from off his arms like a thread.
Jdg 16:13 And Delilah said unto Samson, Hitherto thou hast mocked me, and told me lies: tell me wherewith thou mightest be bound. And he said unto her, If thou weavest the seven locks of my head with the web.
Jdg 16:14 And she fastened it with the pin, and said unto him, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awaked out of his sleep, and went away with the pin of the beam, and with the web.
Jdg 16:15 And she said unto him, How canst thou say, I love thee, when thine heart is not with me? thou hast mocked me these three times, and hast not told me wherein thy great strength lieth.
Jdg 16:16 And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death;
Jdg 16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.
Jdg 16:18 And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.
Tau, notice in particular verses 15-17. Apparently, Samson thought He needed share His secret with Delilah to prove He "Loved Her." Well, I hope some of this helped, no offense was intended, just trying to help. Ultimately, You get to choose and choose you will, based on some cause.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Thanks Samson, much appreciated ;D.
At times we may turn to forget that Christ commanded that we are to love Him above all others, weariness and spiritual vexation at times, tend to to cloud the picture resulting in us caving in, but like it is always said in this forum and as repeated by Ray over his many teachings, if God intends you to make a change, you can resist all you like, ultimately, His WILL will be done, for some it takes longer to come to this spiritual truth, yet for others it is something to be tested, but the truth as Ray says, investigate all you like, you will only get to prove what what has always been the truth from the beginning, the opposite holds true as well.
I for one really struggled with whether to support or not, but when God makes 'church' unbearable, it really does not matter whether your intentions were honorable or not, you will 'come out'! So, I am now doing as Paul said, I cling on to this freedom by which I was bought and I ain't looking back and I press onwards with the hope to somehow making it towards the higher calling, but in essence, God really knows how to humble us and if this is not really a miracle, then i personally don't know what is ;D!!