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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Ricky on May 14, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
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We all know man,the women and the beast were created on the 6th day. He created them male and female. That would be 1 thousand years our time, they were populating the earth. Then God rested on the 7Th day, another thousand years of them populating the planet. So man was doing this for 2 thousand years. What was the world like then, they did not have a Bible from God. And that would mean they had millions of gods, and this world would have been one evil mess of everything. So now what did God do next, after the 7Th day. He decided to change the world with Adam. The very first man of God. This is how we got the Bible through Moses, David,etc. God probably did not create the people on the 6 day the same way He did Adam. We will never know. The 6 day people did not have the spirit of God, Adam did. Cain met his wife outside the garden of Eden that says it all right there. Just my opinion. Ricky
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We all know man,the women and the beast were created on the 6th day. He created them male and female. That would be 1 thousand years our time, they were populating the earth. Then God rested on the 7Th day, another thousand years of them populating the planet. So man was doing this for 2 thousand years. What was the world like then, they did not have a Bible from God. And that would mean they had millions of gods, and this world would have been one evil mess of everything. So now what did God do next, after the 7Th day. He decided to change the world with Adam. The very first man of God. This is how we got the Bible through Moses, David,etc. God probably did not create the people on the 6 day the same way He did Adam. We will never know. The 6 day people did not have the spirit of God, Adam did. Cain met his wife outside the garden of Eden that says it all right there. Just my opinion. Ricky
And a whopper of an opinion you have.
There are not two Scriptures that prove either the 6th day or the 7th day were each 1,000 years long. In fact, the 7th day did not end-- there is no evening and morning the 7th day.
Then again, all of the creation account could be an allegory, a story.
Whether or not the creation account is literal or a story, we do not know at this time.
The most important things are the great spiritual truths that the creation Scriptures teach us. Remember Jesus said that His words were spirit.
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Hi Ricky,
I believe the story of creation is spoken in allegory terms to hide the meaning and the great truth that lie underneath. But I do think it is a real story and real events, that portray through symbolism God's plan.
There is nothing wrong with looking at scientific studies to gain some information about the past. Archaeologists have dated quite a few digs around the world to put man much further back than a couple thousand years before Adam and Eve.
You wonder what were those pre-Adam people like... well we know quite a lot about native tribes of people that have lived before Christiandom got to them and forced there conversion and change into what they considered acceptable (and, oh yeah, to save their souls from hell). There are even a few left that have not been totally adsorbed into the modern society of today.
Yes I believe that Adam was the start of God revealing Himself to mankind through 'His people." And with Adam it certainly seems to have been a huge jump forward in progress, with agriculture and all other forms of advancement he taught, like farming and mining, which brought about the advancement of the social structure in so many ways. This was the way God brought the world forward into what He had determined for it to be.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I think we are making lots of assumption here without any real proof. Archaeology is filled with imagination and error.
Cain had children, but why not with one of his sisters? Both their genetics were perfect as created by God.
Why must we assume that ADAM became superior to his predecessor in intellect. Is it because of the myth of an unintelligent "ape man" from which mankind developed? Bad logic! Animal life doesn't evolve into superior life forms. If anything animal life remains the same or is degraded in reproduction after origin.
It is just as likely that Adam/Eve were perfect in all their physical attributes and that mankind has deteriorated since that time. It is also likely that humans had a strong curiosity and desire to explore and invent. Why not build small pyramids in the first century, the second etc? They had food and great health and tons of time on their hands. They could produce a new generation every 16 years. Apply logarithmic math to that starting point. Didn't need baby sitters, kids could run loose, food was free, diapers not needed etc. etc.
If Adam had to DEVELOP into a sentient being, what about Jesus the 2nd Adam. Did God have to take time/years to develop a perfect son to become savior? Or did God get it right the first time? I don't see anything in God's autobiography to show that God has to practice or learn how to build a human. I see a lot of evidence that God has to get it right the first time OR it doesn't work at all. God didn't have a "back up plan" in the event Lord Jesus fell short of the glory of God. Right??
What ever God creates is perfect or complete for the task required. Adam was perfect, physically, mentally. Satan was perfect for his assignment too.
Just some thoughts to ponder, Indiana bob
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Cain was kicked out of the garden of eden for murdering his brother Able. Cane said this is unbearable they will kill me. Then Cain met his wife, how would that be his sister, and where does the bible say Cain and able had sisters. I cannot believe God would allow incest to happen when there was no need for that. I have always been told that if it is against mans law, it is automaticly against Gods law. Pot being legal now in Colorado, how does they sit with God.
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Hi Friend Ricky,
I don't want to get into a debate about Genesis, but I think we can use BT articles to show that God is a planner who always accomplishes ALL His will for mankind. Often God does not immediately share His plans with His creation, so we tend to guess what God has in mind and everyone has their own way of seeing things. That's one of the advantages of BT because Ray Smith took the time and effort to try to answer all possible question within the scope of scripture and what God's spirit gave him.
Just a couple of personal comments if you please.
I don't believe that Cain was kicked out of the paradise of EDEN. Adam and Eve were sent out before they had children.
Cain on the other hand was exiled from his parents homeland or area and allowed to start over in another place. That doesn't prove that he couldn't visit again years later. There was no one to keep him out and God warned his relatives not to kill him.
As far as where he got his wife, we don't know how old Cain and Able were when the murder occurred. People lived for centuries back then and it may be supposed that people, especially men, retained the ability to reproduce for centuries as well. Therefore the people of 'NOD' may have been the direct descendants of Adam and Eve.
NOTE: the time gap between Gen 4:16 and 4:17 could have been decades.
The scripture mentions this event only to lead us to understand that ENOCH was the heir of Cain. And that there were by then enough people to require the building of a CITY. So that could be several hundred at least.
I think it is quite apparent that Adam and Eve had girls. It isn't necessary to spell it out. No girls, no babies.
We seem to have quite a lot of misunderstanding regarding incest. Perhaps we can explore that more carefully.
I don't agree that God enforces man's incest laws among God's people. In any case there would not have been any genetic reason to prohibit reproduction between siblings back then. The gene structure was fresh and perfect.
I don't believe that God prohibits alcohol, medicine drugs, large sweet drinks or inhaling smoke. These are men's rules and have nothing to do with God's leading of His people into righteousness.
Let's discuss these matters carefully and see what we can learn.
Respectfully, Indiana bob
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Hi Bob, Bible says God created, formed, whatever, man and the beast on the 6th day. Man must be 230 million years old then. Dinosaurs go back that far, are they not considered to be the beast as well, how could this be possible. It took 230 million years for man to be where he is at today ? Something is not right here with this. Man could not have been here with the dinosaurs, I can't even outrun my dog let alone a Dino.
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Good morning Ricky,
You make a good point about being able to outrun Dino, but I only have to outrun the guy behind me, RIGHT?
However, please remember that the age of Dinosaurs is PURE speculation.
Also the published personality/nature of dinosaurs is speculation. Science just doesn't know....
Consider the little boys of Thailand who lead elephants around by the trunk and work them all day moving things for profit. Think of playing with "killer whales" in the wild. Swimming with sharks etc. There is absolutely no reason to believe that man and dinosaurs could not peacefully coexist; even if some dinosaurs were predator and others were prey. Man is nothing if not adaptable. Is anything impossible for God?
And of course you are right to question why it would have taken mankind hundreds of years, let alone thousands of years to become a builder and an engineer. Once again science limits the type of mind that God gave to the first man, whenever that happened to be in the history of time.
Genesis tells us that mankind is being led to an existence similar to that of God. Having great powers of creativity and self control as the very sons of the creator, such that angels will serve as our willing assistants in God's operation of the cosmos.
So it seems obvious to me, that God is giving mankind a practical experience in the art of creation using natural materials. First the natural, next the spiritual.
Comment please, Indiana Bob
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KJV Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
CLV Tit 1:2 in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,
I hope it's clear that God just does not lie, but CANNOT lie!
If all the geological evidence says there were dinosaurs then they existed. Else that would make God a lair.
There is plenty of evidence that man as we know him has been around at least 40,000 years. But if the evidence shows 100,000 years (well after the dinosaurs) then so be it.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Who are these "any?" His parents? No, the "any" were not Cain's parents.
Did God wait several hundred years before He confronted Cain? No, God confronted Cain right away. There was no time to generate the "any" to populate the earth. Clearly there were other humans on earth before Cain murdered his brother.
Ray has spoken on this. Can someone please find it?
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Hi Dennis, God could have populated the earth outside the garden of Eden, which was protected by angels. The 6 day people were outside that garden. Cain found a wife of them which would explain the difference kinds of people in the world today. Where does it say Adam and Eve were outside the garden of Eden.
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Where does it say Adam and Eve were outside the garden of Eden.
We know they left the garden, but we do not know when they first left for sure.
Gen 6:4
(CLV) Now the distinguished come to be in the earth in those days, and, moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of the elohim to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the masters, who are from the eon, mortals with the name.
(JPS) The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
(KJV) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
(Rotherham) The giants, were in the each in these days, and also, after that, when the sons of God began to go in unto the daughters of men, and sons were born to them, the same, were the heroes that were from age-past times the men of renown.
Strong's says: bully, tyrant, giant. Concordant calls them "distinguished" which would fit what Strong says.
Native Americans have been here a long time: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_have_native_Americans_been_living_in_the_u.s (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_have_native_Americans_been_living_in_the_u.s)
I know Ray talked about this. I hope it wasn't just to me alone, but publicly. Anyone remember?
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Ray talks about it a bit in the Nashville 2008 postscript.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.0.html
Under the heading "First Humans."
I think he's talked about it a few other places too, in a few emails I think.
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Here are a few places Ray had spoke on pre-Adam man.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10158.0/nowap.html -------
Was adam & eve the first and only two people on earth in the beginning or were there other people too?
Dear Maureen: I'm afraid your question is not clear. What do you mean by "in the beginning?" At any
point in time if there are "other people" in the world, it CANNOT be "the beginning." If you mean: "Were
Adam and Eve the first and only humans on the earth at the end of the creation day [period] six," then I
would answer, "No." Humankind appears to go back tens of thousands of years further than the six
thousand or so years of genealogy attributed to Adam in the book of Genesis. Before Adam there was
"no man TO TILL the soil," not that there was "no man" period. Did Cain marry someone other than his
own sister? Who was Cain afraid would kill him before there were any other named humans on earth
besides his parents? Etc. Listen to my tapes on this subject from the Nashville Conference.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12719.0.html ------------------
RAY'S COMMENT: Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity. Is this not the order found in the geologic table? Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations. Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground." There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.
The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation. God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens." God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them. This obviously took years. Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).
It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.
Chapter two does not cover the creation of plant life. That began hundreds of millions of years earlier. What God is doing in Chapter two is He is planting a garden for the man to cultivate, farm, and harvest. The word "planted" in Gen. 2:8 is from the Hebrew meaning "to sprout." God "sprouted" newly planted trees, etc. They were mere buds, which would require years to produce fruit to eat. What was Adam expected to eat until these trees matured?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13694.0.html -------
Thank you for your interest in our site. It is not possible for me to answer your questions
in a short email. Hundreds of thousands of scientists have written many thousands of
books dealing with the subjects you bring up. I will try to steer you in a direction, however,
which may help your faith rather than destroy it.
The first couple of chapters of Genesis are written in such a way that many of the major
concepts of biological evolution could be possible. For example,
Gen. 1:9-10 present the earth in the same configuration as do many geological scientists.
The land was all in one mass, which answers to the theory of Pangaea.
Gen. 1:11, God says "Let the EARTH bring forth grass (vegetation, green, algae).
From. 1:12 to 25, all things produced "after their kind," an absolute law of biology.
In Gen. 1:20 God again says, "Let the WATERS bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that has life..." He didn't say He "created," but let the "waters" do it. Also
God didn't say He created "fish," but rather "moving creatures" which could indicate
extremely small or microscopic simple life. Also notice that God didn't say He "created
birds," but rather "fowl." Gen. 7:14 clearly shows that there must be a difference between
"fowls" and "birds." This word "fowl" comes from a Hebrew word that simply means, "to
fly," and there are millions of "bugs" and things that can fly.
The point is, however, regardless of how or by what processes God used in creation, He
was behind all of it. The sea would have never brought forth little swimming creatures
except that first God COMMANDED that the waters do so.
So did God use a process of creation that could be compared to some of the theories
of biological evolution?
From the description of the "male and female" that God created in Gen. 1:26, there is no
indication that they could speak and/or had any particular skills, other than to live off of
the land and stay alive. It was "Adam" which God spoke to and who spoke back to God.
And it was Adam that had the ability to "cultivate" the Garden, as apparently the first
male and females did not know HOW to "till the ground" (Gen. 1:7). So maybe there was
an era in which humanity was not as developed as modern homo sapiens. Etc.
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Nice post Kat. Ray says Adam and God were talking to each other, how is that possible, if no man has ever heard Gods voice.
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Hi Ricky,
God of the OT that spoke to Adam was the Son that became Jesus Christ, not the Father whom He spoke of as not being seen or heard.
John 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
God of the OT was the Word or Spokesman for the Father.
John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We can see in numerous places in Scripture where the OT God spoke to people and in several places where He did appear to people, so we can understand how He did appear and speak to Adam.
Gen 18:1 And Jehovah appeared unto him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:13 And Jehovah said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am old?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Sooo much to think about...
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You got that right Moises. We know that God spoke and did things to prove who He is ?? back then. What about now? Today. Look what we are left with. Nothing from Him. Thousands of years of garbage from man. If it has taken this long to know what we know (which may be nothing) about God. We all gonna be in for a big surprise, that's what's gonna happen.
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Bible says the heart is deceitful. How could you trust your heart. I don't.
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Ricky, in the OT Christ was not yet offered and the Spirit that came at Pentecost unto salvation. So in the OT the Spirit of God did deal with people the way He needed to for them to serve Him at that time, but not for salvation.
Now things are different, Jesus Christ comes inside and unites with our spirit giving us Life and works with our enter most being to teach us the way of righteousness. Jesus Christ is our food and drink in a spiritual sense.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 This is the Bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this Bread will live forever."
Now this is a deeper truth that comes in time, think of the meaning behind the words that are being spoken. But most will not comprehend.
John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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back to the subject...
I am learning along the way,
I know this topic might be of little consequence for many, but eventually everything is connected... so this thing is important
I do have a few sincere questions
-does what applies to Adam (regarding death and salvation), would also apply to ''the distinguished''?
-why does Eve is called ''the mother of all living''?
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All -
I do not see or get this.
If Humanity was created male and female; and then later The Lord selected Adam - why was Adam not with another woman and why did The Lord make Eve for Adam.
I can understand that The Lord selected Adam to make him into a different type of a man / humanity - but I just do not understand the reason why Adam was lonely until Eve was given to him by The Lord.
George.
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Hi George, here is excerpt from Genesis 2 in the CLV in case you don't have it.
Gen 2:15 And taking is Yahweh Elohim the human that he had formed and is leaving him in the garden of Eden to serve it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
Gen 2:18 And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not good is it for the human for him to be alone. Make for him will I a helper as his complement.
Gen 2:19 And furthermore Yahweh Elohim, having formed from the ground all field life and every flyer of the heavens, He is also bringing it to the human to see what he will call it. And whatever the human living soul is calling it, that is its name.
Gen 2:20 And calling is the human the names for every beast and for every flyer of the heavens, and for all field life. Yet for the human He does not find a helper as His complement.
Gen 2:21 And falling is a stupor on the human, caused by Yahweh Elohim, and he is sleeping. And taking is He one of his angular organs and is closing the flesh under it.
Gen 2:22 And Yahweh Elohim is building the angular organ, which He takes from the human, into a woman, and bringing her is He to the human.
Gen 2:23 And saying is the human, "This was once bone of my bones and flesh from my flesh. This shall be called woman, for from her man is this taken.
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and they two become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And coming are they two, the human and his wife, to be naked, yet are not shaming themselves.
That may raise more questions than it answers, but it a helpful version in distinguishing verb tenses and a more 'concordant' translation, though it doesn't make it a perfect translation as no such thing exists.
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Hi George,
The way I am seeing this is that the first man and woman created in Genesis 1 was to began the creation of humans on the earth. I do not believe it was an experiment to see how humans would do or something, as some have suggested. It was to establish humans on the earth and to produce a population that were self sufficient and lived off the land without manipulating it at all.
God formed Adam as a new human, not so much as different in form, intelligence or capability as the others, but Adam was to be the beginning of 'God's people' down through history. We have a list in Hebrews 11 of many names that were faithful servants of God in the OT.
I believe Adam was taught many things (much more than just farming) by God that Adam and his descendants were to likewise teach to the rest of the world. This would bring about a huge leap forward in the progress towards sophistication of the human race, exactly as God intended.
It was with Adam that God began His interaction with people and all through the OT we see that He continued to work with Adam's descendants through history on down to when Jesus Christ was born in the flesh on earth.
After Jesus Christ came God no longer had a particular line of people that were dealt with and known as His people. No, from then on a person was considered God's chosen by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Col 3:11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
This is the process God developed, a very intricate plan that in many cases you can see there were events that foreshadows things that would come later on.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Bulls eye Kat, :) Adam Gods first man of HIS kind. God probably made male and female racist different people on the 6th day and placed them in different parts of the world, except the garden of Eden, which was protected for Adam and Eve. This would explain how Adam and Eve evently made Eskimos.
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Ricky, I would never use the word "probably" for such a statement.
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I am still waiting for my Eve... :l
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lol Moises....just a bit of Motherly advise...don't be looking for a woman fashioned out of bone....continue looking rather for that one who is of His Spirit, Heart and Love, and that's the way to go! So keep on keeping on. :)
Arc
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Devora, thanks for your advance... :)
So, chances are very good; I stay waiting for very long...
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You are always welcome Moises ~
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it seems like there are some things being said in some posts here that are not backed up by Scripture, or not expounded on by ray.
claudia
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it seems like there are some things being said in some posts here that are not backed up by Scripture, or not expounded on by ray.
claudia
Agree, that's why they slip into off topics ;D
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Hi George,
The way I am seeing this is that the first man and woman created in Genesis 1 was to began the creation of humans on the earth. I do not believe it was an experiment to see how humans would do or something, as some have suggested. It was to establish humans on the earth and to produce a population that were self sufficient and lived off the land without manipulating it at all.
God formed Adam as a new human…
Hi Kat
Thank you for expressing your view that there were two separate creations of mankind. I do have some difficulty with the concept and perhaps you will be able to provide further clarification and foundation as to why you believe such.
I am unable to reconcile a pre-Adam humankind with the following Scriptures:
Acts 17:26a
KJV
AndG5037 hath madeG4160 ofG1537 oneG1520 bloodG129 allG3956 nationsG1484 of menG444
CLV
Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind
Genesis 3:20
KJV
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
CLV
And calling is the human his wife's name Eve, for she becomes the mother of all the living.
Matthew 19:4-5 (CLV)
Now He, answering, said, "Did you not read that the Maker from the beginning makes them male and female, and He said, 'On this account a man shall be leaving father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh'?
Mark 10:6-8a (CLV)
Yet from the beginning of creation God makes them male and female. On this account a man will be leaving his father and mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will be one flesh.
Please correct me if I have a misunderstanding, but it seems to me that Jesus was making reference to the male and female humankind made from the beginning of creation (because that is what He said) and on this account (God making male and female from the beginning of creation) a man was to leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife.
The first reference to God making male and female mankind is in Genesis 1:
Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
If one prefers the CLV, it is:
And saying is the Elohim, "Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness, and sway shall they over the fish of the sea, and over the flyer of the heavens, and over the beast, and over all land life, and over every moving animal moving on the land. And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
The first reference to a man leaving/forsaking his father and his mother and clinging to his wife and the two becoming one flesh is in Genesis 2:
Genesis 2:21-24 (CLV)
And falling is a stupor on the human, caused by Yahweh Elohim, and he is sleeping. And taking is He one of his angular organs and is closing the flesh under it. And Yahweh Elohim is building the angular organ, which He takes from the human, into a woman, and bringing her is He to the human. And saying is the human, "This was once bone of my bones and flesh from my flesh. This shall be called woman, for from her man is this taken. Therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and they two become one flesh.
The above Scripture in Genesis 2 says that because woman was taken out of man therefore a man shall forsake his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and the two become one flesh. However Jesus said that because from the beginning God made them male and female, on this account, a man shall leave his father and his mother and become one flesh with his wife. Jesus did not say, because the woman was taken out of the man, on this account, a man shall leave father and mother and become one flesh with his wife, but because from the beginning God made them male and female. It therefore appears (to me) that Jesus quoted partly from Genesis 1 (and/or Genesis 5 see below) and continued on with a quote from Genesis 2 as if the Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 human creation accounts were the same occurrence.
The following Scripture (also?) combines and merges the Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 making of mankind accounts, using the “likeness of God” and the “male and female” expressions of Genesis 1, and referring to Adam not only as a single identity, but also as a group, to be specific: as male and female.
Genesis 5:1-5 (CLV)
This is the scroll of the genealogical annals of Adam: In the day the Elohim created Adam, in the likeness of the Elohim He made him. Male and female created He them; and blessing them is He, and calling their name Adam in the day they are created. And living is Adam two hundred and thirty years. And begetting is he one in his likeness, according to his image. And calling is he his name Seth. And coming are the days of Adam, after his begetting Seth, to be seven hundred years. And begetting is he sons and daughters. And coming are all the days of Adam, which he lives, to be nine hundred and thirty years. And he died.
Therefore how can the creating of male and female in the image and likeness of God and the creation of Adam be separated, when the Scriptures tie them together as one?
Please note that I have simply quoted Scripture, with some straightforward explanation of my understanding of not all of those Scriptures. It is fair if the Scriptures above are addressed and not avoided in regard to this matter, or else how can the matter stand? If I have misunderstood Scripture, and remembering that Scripture does not contradict Scripture, please explain, using Scripture, how I have misunderstood Scripture. Please ensure that Scripture is put before conjecture.
Please note also that I have not disagreed with Ray's teachings of Adam not being the first human created. I am not knowledgeable enough or smart enough to do that. Let the Scriptures speak for the Scriptures. I have asked for clarification in regard to Scriptures that appear to me to contradict the teaching. I am willing to be corrected in regard to my understanding of the Scriptures.
Oatmeal
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Hi Oatmeal,
Very thought provoking questions. Ray did mention that he believed that there were people before Adam, but only in the briefest way and with no further explanation that I know of. Therefore I must decline to answer because of the rules of the forum.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ray alludes to the fact that the people outside the garden that Cain took as his wife, were neanderthals.
There is evidence of mating between homosapiens and other primates of the homo genus.
We also have Neanderthal DNA in us, this has all been scientifically determined and is a popular theory on the interactions between homosapiens and its cousins. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/science/07neanderthal.html?_r=0
However, there is also part of the scientific community that argues that this common DNA found in homosapians and neanderthals is not because of interbreeding but rather due to common lineage, that is to say that, we share a common ancestor somewhere down the phylogenetic tree.
It is believed homosapiens wiped out the other human likespecies such as neanderthals etc.. due to their superior ability to compete and advance (think farming, reading - more advanced basically).
Also, just like adam and even were suddenly created in the Garden, Homosapians suddenly appeared on earth sometime ago in this same fashion and there has been no "missing link" to tie us in with the other species.
Adam and eve were the first kind of human that could commune with God, have a relationship with Him - KNOW HIM -, they also introduced agriculture and writing to the world. This latter part is a fact of history and in this sense, they were VERY DIFFERENT from their cousins the neanderthals and other's of the homo genus. You could argue... an entirely different animal.
Take this evidence to mean what you want but I think the biblical account in Genesis is pretty historically accurate as far as science and human endeavors can surmise.
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Science says modern man goes back at least 50,000 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human)
The church says man has been here about 6,000 years, but the church is almost always wrong.
Wikipedia says: "Humans began to practice sedentary agriculture about 12,000 years ago..." which could easily go back to Adam and Eve.
Ray was of the opinion that there were human type beings before Adam and Eve. He had good reason to think this but it escapes me.
But whatever ... we'll find out someday. This is not something that keeps me up at night.
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Just a quick thought, if Adam was protected in the garden, and had never seen another "human" then, why wouldn't he call Eve the mother of all living if she was his only female of his "species" that he had ever seen? Hope that makes sense.
Greg
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Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
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Hi Gregory,
Valid comment.
The fact remains that we are left to place the "evidence" of human derived science above the scriptures in this instance if not in several other areas.
Question then. How many people did God create, in pairs or in groups or in full tribes that preceded the first sentient beings that were aware of God? For what purpose that is not spoken of in scripture?
Must we assume that God created Elk for example as in the first pair or in the first herd of thousands?
Scripture says that man (adam) was created to subdue and manage the balance of the created order. In other words the created order of animals and fish and so forth could exist alone without mankind in the picture. So man was not necessarily a precursor to the success of the lower animal kingdoms in events such as animal husbandry to develop a range of different species within a family. (correction invited)
The fact that we find animal bones on many widely separated continents doesn't prove that they all were created where they are found does it?
It is I think a valid question although L. Ray did not apparently address that issue. (correction invited)
Do we have some proof that the evidence of science as to the age of ancient bones is without criticism.
Science works through many theories and postulations before the get down to reproducible facts in nature or the laboratory of practical application. e.g. is "Uniformatarianism" valid? Has nothing changed since events in scripture?
The discovered errors out number the provable facts by a factor of 1000 in many instances and the provable science is certainly a revelation of God to humanity according to God's timing and a gift to the scientist who first publicized the information just before it appeared elsewhere. Everything on God's time table.
Indiana Bob
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It just seems that so many believe that science contradict what Scripture says... I disagree, at least in some instances. The Scripture certainly state the truth of the matter, and science has it's own evidence that match with in when it is honest science. It is our interpretation of what the Scriptures say that is usually in error and lead to seeming contradictions.
I believe the Scriptures are written about the people of God and to the people of God concerning salvation, and others are only mentioned as needed where they come in contact with God's people. God's plan of salvation begins with Adam, and that is where the Scripture mainly begins it's commentary on people. Before that there was only the brief mentions of them where they fit into the initial creation process.
We do have accurate dating in Scripture as to when Adam lived and there is also plenty of scientific evidence (all which should not be simply brushed aside) of people living way before that. There was certainly good reason God did it that way, and I do believe we have many references to these people in the Scripture, if you have eyes to see it. Why do you think the Gentiles were so despised by the Jews and looked down upon to such a degree, called dogs? They were not God's people and were not believed to be in line for salvation, Adam's line. It's not that there is nothing in Scripture on these other people, but for the most part their identity just hasn't been reveal yet.
Well anyway couldn't resist speaking up on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I asked a very naive question about Adam and eve being jewish/ hebrew ? yes anglo saxion and pale skinned that I am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
and I found a creation story of adam having a wife before eve - liliath? there are many creation stories - same theme, same story - just illustrated differently
What amazed me is that oral tradition is more valid than a written word - and that is why many cultures write right to left - as in it looses its validity if I have to write it down rather than tell you how it is - well - that is what I learned today from armchair exploring and hoping I can hear from Spirit - Our Maker and Placer x does it matter? God places Himself above His Word - must be His spoken word /can't be His written word - because we don't have it right yet
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Job 38:1 Then Yahweh answered Job from the tempest and said:
Job 38:2 Who is this who darkens counsel By declarations without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Belt up your loins now like a master; I shall ask of you, and you inform Me.
Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell if you know with understanding.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered Yahweh and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am slight; how can I reply to You? I place my hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 I spoke once but shall not answer further, Twice, but I shall not continue.
Me too, Job. Me too.
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me too sorry I don't have anywhere else to post my questions and show my ignorance xx
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me three
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What God wants us to know we will know and what he doesn't we will never know for sure in this life time.
It is very evident from the scriptures that God's plan was and is to have earthly sons and daughters from man (Adam and Eve) that can become spiritually minded (Through The Lord Jesus Christ).
1st Corinthians 15:45-50
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Eve was the mother of all that are earthly minded, just as Jerusalem which is above is the mother of all that are spiritually minded.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Joel
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Hayley, I'm not preaching to anybody but me. That scripture I quoted is one of those freaky situations where what's written matches my life...some of it right cheer on ye old BT forum. ;D
Read those chapters for yourself and come to your own conclusions about what they mean and what they mean for you to do. Nobody cares...nor should they...what I might think. My answer to the Lord's question is just like Job's would have been if he had interrupted.
"Where were you?" "Not there."
On the flip side, whatever bone makes normal people care what christians think about them was removed from me half my conscious life ago. :D I've found it to be a wonderful freedom, though not without challenges.
Anyway, ask away. Everybody will think what they think until they don't any more. Jesus is Lord.
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so you weren't talking about me? ;D Thanks Dave - I think its my upbringing that makes me overly sensitised - must have been the years growing up in apartheid south africa - groan - I am learning to let go of the bones and shadows :)
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What God wants us to know we will know and what he doesn't we will never know for sure in this life time.
It is very evident from the scriptures that God's plan was and is to have earthly sons and daughters from man (Adam and Eve) that can become spiritually minded (Through The Lord Jesus Christ).
1st Corinthians 15:45-50
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Eve was the mother of all that are earthly minded, just as Jerusalem which is above is the mother of all that are spiritually minded.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Joel
Excellent post Joel and great reference to other mother... "of us all."
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Hi John, yea I'm seeing that more and more.
Joel, I too appreciate your comments on "mother of all living," the light bulb went on with that 2nd witness Scripture you gave.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I completely agree with John's comment...
"However, whether something is literally true or not, we know that all of Jesus' words are spirit and truth. The higher spiritual truths are what are most valuable."
I want to reiterate this... that is so, so true... the Word does not mean what it literally says, it means what it means.
A sheep is not a sheep
144,000 does not literally mean 144,000
The moon is not a moon
The wheat is not wheat
gold is not gold
etc.. etc...
Every single phrase and sentence points to Christ, and Christ points to us... everything that He goes through, WE ALL will eventually go through in our own lives (not literally but spiritually). He is the beginning and the end. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. We will ALL eventually live every Word.
So Adam is me. He's you. Eve is me. She's you. We all will go through the process of being marred clay vessels, naked, being crushed, and re-made into His image. Adam did happen back then, but more important and valuable is... Adam is happening right now.... IN US. And it's all a parable of how God is taking His creation and making us into His likeness. All mankind.
Jesus IS...WAS and WILL BE. We ARE, WAS and WILL BE too. As He is, so are we in this world.
My words are spirit and truth. The scriptures are not a history book, it's a spiritual book. Does it have history in it?... of course it does, but as grown up (mature) sons and daughters in Christ, our focus isn't on the carnal physical stuff, we're concerned about spiritual matters. Let the dead be concerned about dead things (we once took part in dead things). We however, currently, search for Truth. That's why we are here! God is causing us, giving us the desire to search Him above anything else! :)
I am the first Adam, I'm also the last Adam. I am, have and will live every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Jesus Christ did it first and is preimenant, and we are the first fruits who walk in His exact foot steps. The rest of the harvest will too, but at a later date. But see, they even play the part of the pharasee for now for our admonition. We too at one time played the pharasee part, we were Pharoah at one time (if they don't play their part what would we come out of? We need each other). Jesus Christ has come in my flesh and is living out His life in me. Not that I have obtained it all... but that I press toward the high calling. I have compassion and love for my brothers and sisters currently caught up in the church world, I know what it's like to come out of Babylon. It's so hard, it kills us. They will all eventually have to go through that... and we will be right there, in loving judgement/chastisement/mercy/grace, showing them the way of Christ.
The whole of scripture is to show us Truth, and this Truth reveals Christ and us. Christ's fate, is our fate! (spiritually) Where we have been, where we are, and where we are going. We are His accomplishment. It's all His work. It's all one.
And it's beautiful :)
I love that He made us love the Truth now. I know you guys share the same feeling and I have to say that it's so good to fellowship with those of like mind. Thank God for each one of you! I have learned so much from you all. :)
I hope this was encouraging!
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I give all the honor, and glory to God the Father, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind. Jesus Christ the Light of the world.
I am very blessed by all the post on the forum, and the many inspired writings of L. Ray Smith at BT.
Joel
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I completely agree with John's comment...
"However, whether something is literally true or not, we know that all of Jesus' words are spirit and truth. The higher spiritual truths are what are most valuable."
I want to reiterate this... that is so, so true... the Word does not mean what it literally says, it means what it means.
A sheep is not a sheep
144,000 does not literally mean 144,000
The moon is not a moon
The wheat is not wheat
gold is not gold
etc.. etc...
Every single phrase and sentence points to Christ, and Christ points to us... everything that He goes through, WE ALL will eventually go through in our own lives (not literally but spiritually). He is the beginning and the end. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. We will ALL eventually live every Word.
So Adam is me. He's you. Eve is me. She's you. We all will go through the process of being marred clay vessels, naked, being crushed, and re-made into His image. Adam did happen back then, but more important and valuable is... Adam is happening right now.... IN US. And it's all a parable of how God is taking His creation and making us into His likeness. All mankind.
Jesus IS...WAS and WILL BE. We ARE, WAS and WILL BE too. As He is, so are we in this world.
My words are spirit and truth. The scriptures are not a history book, it's a spiritual book. Does it have history in it?... of course it does, but as grown up (mature) sons and daughters in Christ, our focus isn't on the carnal physical stuff, we're concerned about spiritual matters. Let the dead be concerned about dead things (we once took part in dead things). We however, currently, search for Truth. That's why we are here! God is causing us, giving us the desire to search Him above anything else! :)
I am the first Adam, I'm also the last Adam. I am, have and will live every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Jesus Christ did it first and is preimenant, and we are the first fruits who walk in His exact foot steps. The rest of the harvest will too, but at a later date. But see, they even play the part of the pharasee for now for our admonition. We too at one time played the pharasee part, we were Pharoah at one time (if they don't play their part what would we come out of? We need each other). Jesus Christ has come in my flesh and is living out His life in me. Not that I have obtained it all... but that I press toward the high calling. I have compassion and love for my brothers and sisters currently caught up in the church world, I know what it's like to come out of Babylon. It's so hard, it kills us. They will all eventually have to go through that... and we will be right there, in loving judgement/chastisement/mercy/grace, showing them the way of Christ.
The whole of scripture is to show us Truth, and this Truth reveals Christ and us. Christ's fate, is our fate! (spiritually) Where we have been, where we are, and where we are going. We are His accomplishment. It's all His work. It's all one.
And it's beautiful :)
I love that He made us love the Truth now. I know you guys share the same feeling and I have to say that it's so good to fellowship with those of like mind. Thank God for each one of you! I have learned so much from you all. :)
I hope this was encouraging!
Are you saying we are to experience everything in the Word of God? What I have bolded is awfully reminiscent of some other heretical doctrine that once was and probably still is in circulation:
http://www.bible-truths.com/mike.htm
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I completely agree with John's comment...
"However, whether something is literally true or not, we know that all of Jesus' words are spirit and truth. The higher spiritual truths are what are most valuable."
I want to reiterate this... that is so, so true... the Word does not mean what it literally says, it means what it means.
A sheep is not a sheep
144,000 does not literally mean 144,000
The moon is not a moon
The wheat is not wheat
gold is not gold
etc.. etc...
Every single phrase and sentence points to Christ, and Christ points to us... everything that He goes through, WE ALL will eventually go through in our own lives (not literally but spiritually). He is the beginning and the end. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. We will ALL eventually live every Word.
So Adam is me. He's you. Eve is me. She's you. We all will go through the process of being marred clay vessels, naked, being crushed, and re-made into His image. Adam did happen back then, but more important and valuable is... Adam is happening right now.... IN US. And it's all a parable of how God is taking His creation and making us into His likeness. All mankind.
Jesus IS...WAS and WILL BE. We ARE, WAS and WILL BE too. As He is, so are we in this world.
My words are spirit and truth. The scriptures are not a history book, it's a spiritual book. Does it have history in it?... of course it does, but as grown up (mature) sons and daughters in Christ, our focus isn't on the carnal physical stuff, we're concerned about spiritual matters. Let the dead be concerned about dead things (we once took part in dead things). We however, currently, search for Truth. That's why we are here! God is causing us, giving us the desire to search Him above anything else! :)
I am the first Adam, I'm also the last Adam. I am, have and will live every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Jesus Christ did it first and is preimenant, and we are the first fruits who walk in His exact foot steps. The rest of the harvest will too, but at a later date. But see, they even play the part of the pharasee for now for our admonition. We too at one time played the pharasee part, we were Pharoah at one time (if they don't play their part what would we come out of? We need each other). Jesus Christ has come in my flesh and is living out His life in me. Not that I have obtained it all... but that I press toward the high calling. I have compassion and love for my brothers and sisters currently caught up in the church world, I know what it's like to come out of Babylon. It's so hard, it kills us. They will all eventually have to go through that... and we will be right there, in loving judgement/chastisement/mercy/grace, showing them the way of Christ.
The whole of scripture is to show us Truth, and this Truth reveals Christ and us. Christ's fate, is our fate! (spiritually) Where we have been, where we are, and where we are going. We are His accomplishment. It's all His work. It's all one.
And it's beautiful :)
I love that He made us love the Truth now. I know you guys share the same feeling and I have to say that it's so good to fellowship with those of like mind. Thank God for each one of you! I have learned so much from you all. :)
I hope this was encouraging!
Are you saying we are to experience everything in the Word of God? What I have bolded is awfully reminiscent of some other heretical doctrine that once was and probably still is in circulation:
http://www.bible-truths.com/mike.htm
Alex,
Se7en is new with us. I don't think he means to harm. I don't know if he is even aware of the Mike Vinson controversy.
John
Ah, okay. I did only ask though, you can never be too careful these days! :P
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Your right John, sorry guys I didn't know anything about the Mike Vinson controversy. I've just started to read the link provided... I've never seen this paper before! :o
Thanks for posting it Alex!