Hi Roy,
This is from the 2006 Mobile Bible Conference, part 2 HOW DID JESUS DO “THE FATHER’S WILL” Hope this helps :)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3633.msg27126.html#msg27126 ---
1Cor 8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
Is Jesus Christ something? Yes. What is He? He’s of God.
All is of Him, of the One God. All is of Him, Jesus Christ is of Him. It interesting that Jesus Christ is called the Firstfruit in 1 Cor --
1Cor 15:20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.
In Gene. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
But that’s not the way that word (beginning) is translated in most places in the Bible. Let’s step back a second, lets decide who created the heaven and the earth, ok.
In John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
A guy argued with me for 3 months, back and forth, telling me that was the Father,
“In the beginning was the Word.”
The right order of the words in the linear is, ‘and God was the word.’
“ and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning WITH God.”
Now it’s pretty hard for something that is something, to be with itself, see what I’m saying, that don’t quite work grammatically, does it.
In John 1:3 “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.”
So whatever this Word was, He made everything, everything was made by Him.
v. 4 “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.”
What is light? This light that shines in darkness, what was this light? It was the Word.
What did the Word do? It made all things and nothing was made that He didn’t make.
v. 6 “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”
v. 7 “He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through Him.”
v. 8 “He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the Light.”
v. 9 “That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world.”
v. 10 “He was in the world and the world was made by Him.”
We just read that He was in the world and the world was made by Him.
It repeats it (verse 3 and 10). And the world knew Him not.
v. 11 “He came to His own, and His own received Him not.”
v. 12 “But as many as received Him, He gave to them power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name,”
v. 13 “which are born(begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.”
v.14 “And the Word made flesh, and dwelt among us with the glory of the only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and of truth.”
v.15 “John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I spoke:
He who comes after me has been before me, for He was preceding me.”
v.16 “And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace.”
v.17 “For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
Who is this Word, who is as with the Father, who was with God, who made all things,
who was the light of men, who was made flesh, who dwelt among men,
who was the only begotten of the Father? JESUS CHRIST !
v. 18 “No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father,
He has declared Him.”
In the bosom of the Father, That means a close intimate relationship,
He(Jesus Christ) has declared Him(the Father).
Nobody has ever known anything about God the Father, except through Jesus Christ. Before the birth of Jesus Christ in Bethlehem, nobody on the face of the earth, ever knew anything about God the Father.
But didn’t they know about God(in the OT)? That was Jesus Christ.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Now let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father
There are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.
This is what is worrying me and I can’t follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.
Hi Roy,QuoteNow let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father
You're saying it right there, your just not seeing it.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3439 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace' Adjective
Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1
KJV Verse Count
Luke 3
John 4
Hebrews 1
1 John 1
Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1096 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
givnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ginomai 1:681,117
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghin'-om-ahee Verb
Definition
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made
King James Word Usage - Total: 678
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + (3361)&version=kjv 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not translated 14, miscellaneous 4, vr done 2
King James Dictionary
Begotten
To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. (1 John 5:1)
Dictionary of Words from the King James Bible. Public Domain. Copy freely.
You're saying the same thing. Created, begotten, made, brought forth, come to pass, etc etc. Your on it.
Col 1:15 - Show Context
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
How do you get an image? The camera makes an image of you. The camera created/begat/made/brought forth an image of you. How does the Father get an image of Himself? Well really he can't. He's Spirit. He's invisible.
Ro 1:20 - Show Context
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
The Father begat/created/made/brought forth an image of Himself. Its like the Father took a picture of Himself to see what he looked like, instead of just a lifeless picture He create/begat/made/ brought for a being that will represent Him or better speaking be Him.
I look at like this. If i'm God and i'm Spirit and i know that im going to make a physical world where that wont be able to see spirit, how can i get them to see me. They will know me by my Word, but how will they see me. Hmmmm i know i will create/begot/bring forth/make an being in my image for them who will have everything that I am in Him. ( I could go longer in this, but you get the jist)
Like i said earlier, you got it!! You just aint seeing it.
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps. I tried to do all the apostrophes and the like. You are killing me! :) ;) :D ;D 8)
As far as Revelation 3:14 is concerned; “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" Please check the superior fig. or reference number alongside beginning in the centre column of the Bible for its correct interpretation. You'll see it is a noun and means God the first born over all creation. The CREATOR of, but not part of.
Hi Roy,QuoteThere are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.
This is what is worrying me and I can’t follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.
Good answer Anthony.
Here is the Scripture for Christ being created.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
Christ did come out of the Father as all things have, but we can see in that Scripture in Revelation that Jesus Christ was the very first of the Father creation. We don't know how long it was or what happened between Christ's creation and when He created the universe. It is my belief that Jesus Christ was created to be over (as God) and in charge of this creation (by the power of the Father) and I think that is what is being said in John 1.
John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Here is excerpts from the 'Trinity' paper that I think speak about this.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------
Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed. Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth. Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity? No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.
Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28).
v
v
Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the "firstborn" (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation. John 1:1, Heb 1, and Col 1 tell us that christ made ALL things. Don't insert the brackets and the word "other things" like the erroneous JW's try to do.That is not in the text.
v
v
[Ray Replies]
You suggest that Heb. 1:3 says that Jesus is the "substance" of God. I am not sure how you are using that word. Substance can mean both the "essence" of something or the "material" part of something. Jesus Christ had a physical body and could be seen, whereas God does not have a physical body (God is SPIRIT) and God cannot be seen as He is INVISIBLE. It is interesting to note that the KJV translates this word "[h]upo'stasis" into 'substance' but one time in Scripture and that is not in Heb. 1:3, but in Heb. 11:1, Now faith IS the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Now that translation should receive some sort of prize for one the WORST possible translations in all Scripture.
Paul said we are to live by FAITH and not SIGHT [or perception]. What is "substance and evidence" but things that can be seen, weighed and perceived? And things that can be SEEN AND HANDLED (as
in "substance") don't require faith in the first place. Faith is was is required when there IS NOT SUBSTANCE OR EVIDENCE! An infidel can believe in things he can see and handle! Faith is the "assumption" or "confidence" or "assurance" ASIDE from any substance or evidence!
Possibly the Greek "[h]upo'stasis" can be used to mean substance, however, not in any Scripture that I am aware of. And the same is true with Heb. 1:3. Jesus does not "consist" of the "substance" of God Who is invisible, but rather Jesus is the VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. God does not bear this visible substance which can be seen, therefore He send His Son in a VISIBLE form that can be seen (and heard).
This same Greek word is found in other Scriptures, but it is NEVER translated "substance." Notice for example, II Cor. 9:4, and 11:17, Heb. 3:14. If the Father were to take to Himself a Form or a Substance then what we would see is CHRIST. Christ IS the express image, form, (or substance if you insist) of God His Father. However, the difference is that when Christ takes on all of the Father's form, image, character, etc., etc., we can see and hear and touch Him with our hands, but we still cannot see, hear or touch our Heavenly Father with our physical hands. Jesus said that when we SEE Him we SEE the Father even though the Father is INVISIBLE! Granted, this is a little higher than theology 101.
You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?
But notice how you answer this question in your own statement: "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation." There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God! It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it? Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).
Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,
"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him."
And not verse 28:
"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.
Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...? And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"
As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM." Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."
Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
If you must insist how do you address this verse?
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
This proves that Jesus the man was created but Jesus the Word whom we worship and follow was Born of God and as such is God in His own right and not part of the creation, rather the CREATOR.
If you must insist how do you address this verse?
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"
Bad translation.
Hi Roy,
Here it is in Rotherham's;
Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.
Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
His Peace to you,
Joe
If you must insist how do you address this verse?
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"
Bad translation.
Hi Roy,
Here it is in Rotherham's;
Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.
Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
His Peace to you,
Joe
#########
Hi! Joe
I don't have a Rotherham's Bible but I do have a KJV, NASV, Interlinear and a concordance and they all render it as eternity, and I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.
After being alerted to it by Samson I have now read Ray's paper on the Trinity and it is as you say overwhelming evidence against the Trinity farce which I never believed in in the first place and that is the reason why I didn't bother to read it earlier. But Ray does not show a great deal of evidence on the creation of Christ.
So it hasn't helped I'm sorry to say, but I appreciate your input.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Forgive my simple mind. This is very interesting and possibly to deep for me, but I can't see the question clearly ???
Is it what is the difference between, created & begotton?
We all have come into this world through natural conception.? (except Jesus)
Haven't we all been predestined by God for his purpose prior to our natural birth?
...
If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?
I'm a little lost here, can someone throw me a fish net, and reel me in?
Brenda
I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.
If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?
Hi Roy,
I follow you right up to this statement, "When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being."
So the Son - Jesus Christ - Creator of the universe did come out of the Father, but are you saying that the Father did not create Him?
As for the verse in Micah 5,
Mic 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting."
There are other verses that speak the the coming Messiah as if it were the Father speaking.
Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
v. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
1Sa 2:35 Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever.
The God we always heard from in the OT was Jehovah, who became Jesus of the NT, He is the spokesman of the Father as no one has ever heard the Father's voice.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
I believe Jesus Christ always spoke what the Father commanded in the OT as Jehovah and in the NT as Jesus Christ, as in says in Mal 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;"
We have a Scripture in the NT that appear as the Father spoke too.
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"
We know that this was not the Father speaking either. Here is an email on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---
Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him." The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message. Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
That is what i think Roy is saying the difference in begotten and created. And looking at what strong's has put for the Logos, i can see what Roy is saying. Has anyone found a scripture where it mentions why God wanted to create? Why he even came up with the thought, or desire to?
Very nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son.
I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.
The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.
Heb 1:1 God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4 and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.
Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.
Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me. The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice. The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others. "He holds everything together by his powerful word." He is clearly Christ, the Creator.
It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe. Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part. Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'. He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One. For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.
It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding. Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this. I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.
I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God. But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them. His words are Truth. We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.
Let me explain my reasoning;
Begotten means, bringing forth, being born, giving birth to. All living creatures, including man, can produce and give birth to, but they cannot create. That is God's sole prerogative.
Created means, to make, to produce, to manufacture out of pure energy, which is Light which is the Father. Only God has the power to create.
Now let us take the word Begotten. If the Father gives birth/begets the Word/Christ, Christ will be the exact image of the Father with His power to do His Will, that is, to create all things. In short He is the Creator/God who rightly deserves our worship. " "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1).
Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.
I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God. But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them. His words are Truth. We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.
QuoteVery nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
I've been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation).
Mt 11:25 - Show Context
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Mt 21:16 - Show Context
"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, "'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"
Lu 10:21 - Show Context
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
2Co 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
Eph 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Php 1:11 - Show Context
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Heb 13:15 - Show Context
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.
1Pe 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
These I'm not sure on. They could be referring to the Father...
1Ch 16:25 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
Ps 96:4 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
Some translations translate Lord, Jehovah very few has the "he" capitalized (i dont know why).
Roy i see the difference you (scriptures) are saying.
John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
We will also be born of God. We are created now, but we will all be born again.
Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God
Strong's Number: 1080
Original Word Word Origin
gennavw from a variation of (1085)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gennao 1:665,114
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghen-nah'-o Verb
Definition
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
Born/begotten or created. Is it just semantics? Im beginning to see that it aint.
May God open all our eyes to what he is saying in His Word in Jesus name,
Anthony
Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
Hello Roy,
Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father? You don't believe begotten and created are the same?
And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?
Looking through these posts and the scriptures everyone has posted, I still don't see the huge difference between begotten & created. Either way, the Father brought the Son, Jesus, into existence. Jesus stated He 'came out of the Father'. The Father comes out of no one. Jesus was able to die, the Father has always been immortal. Etc...
Also you stated that from John 1:1-5 this scripture means "This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD."
But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning.
In a nutshell, I still don't completely understand the issue. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and has a beginning. I don't understand how being either created or begotten changes anything about Christ.
For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own.
Thanks,
Marques
HI Roy
Very nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
Anthony
"Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I think the Scripture in Revelation does cause a bit of phase on this matter, as Young's gives it a bit of a different perspective...
Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God;
And it is this passage in Hebrews that makes me hesitate on Christ having a beginning. We know He was Melchizedek from the OT and this is what it says of Him.
Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who meets with Abraham returning from the combat with the kings and blesses him,
v. 2 to whom Abraham parts a tithe also, from all; being first, indeed, translated king of righteousness,yet thereupon king of Salem, also, which is "king of Peace";"
v. 3 fatherless, motherless, without a genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor consummation of life, yet picturing the Son of God is remaining a priest to a finality."
And this verse...
Heb 9:11 But, when Christ approached, as high-priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tent, not made by hand, that is, not of this creation,— (Rotherham)
Christ was with the Father before the universe.
John 17:5 And, now, glorify Me—thou, Father! with Thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world’s existence, with Thee.
I think our understanding on this is hampered by comparing this to what we have here in the physical. So before the creation of this universe Christ was with the Father and they were One, as in mind and will.
There does seem that there was some kind of individualness in their being, before the universe, as there appears to be some kind of separation in beings. Maybe their relationship at that time is not something that can be explained in physical terms. Christ was always the spokesman/Word of the Father, but it was when Christ was born of Mary that He actually became the Father's Son. And we never knew of the Father until Christ revealed Him.
Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
A lot to consider, I guess we have to pray for our spiritual eyes to be opened a little wider to comprehend all this :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Why can't Jesus be both created and begotten??
As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son.
I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.
The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.
Heb 1:1 God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4 and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.
Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.
Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me. The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice. The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others. "He holds everything together by his powerful word." He is clearly Christ, the Creator.
It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe. Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part. Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'. He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One. For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.
It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding. Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this. I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.
I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God. But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them. His words are Truth. We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.
I know this is simple minded but who were we told by Jesus to worship?
Darren
We worship the Father in Spirit and the Father only, He is a jealous God, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:5). But we pray to Him in the name of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
We worship the Father in Spirit and the Father only, He is a jealous God, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:5). But we pray to Him in the name of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. That's in my opinion.
How does this question his deity? or whether or not he is worthy to be praised?And ask can you find me a verse that specifically says he(Jesus) is worthy to be praised.
Insert Quote
Quote from: winner08 on Today at 05:49:57 AM
I know this is simple minded but who were we told by Jesus to worship?
Darren
Another thing...
If we are to praise Jesus, what would have been the point of Him introducing us to the Father?
Hi Roy and AK4,
I have been studying Ray's paper on The Father's will.....(THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006)
"Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with? Jesus Christ, right? The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.
In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
We read in 1 Cor 15:20 “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”
That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.” Who is the Firstfurit? JESUS CHRIST.
Where did Jesus come from: John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
A couple of other points here. Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.” And what did He tell Moses? Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh. When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."
So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born. Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...” Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke. It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.
I hope this helps a bit.
Heidi
I think a little review of Ray's article 'Is God a Close Trinity or an Open Family' will help us get our bearings on this matter.
Who and What is GOD?
"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).
"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).
"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).
"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).
"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)
"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).
"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).
"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).
"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).
Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).
"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS !
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God's Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Or how do we account for:-
"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (Heb.7:3). This is speaking about the Word the Son of God.
Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise. The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.
According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:
In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]
The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).
All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:(Rays)
Okay think on this.
The Word had a physical body prepared for him.
Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7).
We have been predestined (a body prepared for us too since God has foreknowledge) and created with physical body and basically had the same thing for us right?....
Ro 8:29 - Show Context
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ro 8:30 - Show Context
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Eph 1:5 - Show Context
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
Eph 1:11 - Show Context
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
So as for us being resurrected, we will be born of God and not recreated right?...
John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Same as the Word. The Word wasnt created but born. The Words' physical body, Jesus, was made/created/prepared
We will also be born of God. We are created now, but we will all be born again.
Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God
(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17). (bolding done by me)
So as the Word was born of God so will we. We wont be recreated just like the Word couldnt be created but born.
(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
"For whom He did foreknow, [that’s US, and eventually all humanity, I Cor. 15:28], He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).
Jesus was made a physical man so that He could show us the way to the spirit God.
And so it was that this Jesus, in the flesh, who became human, became a man of flesh, was conformed into the spiritual "Image of God," and spoke to us through His "words of spirit." It is Jesus Who "was the word of God" back in Genesis, Who did the speaking when "…God [the Word] said, Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). It was "the word" in Genesis 1:26 Who said: "Make will We humanity in Our Image…" (Concordant Version).
What kind of words were those words, which The Word spoke back there in the garden? Why they were the words of Jesus, and Jesus plainly tells us that His words "ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63).
Is it just me, but just as i stated in one of my earlier posts and with CIYs' post--QuoteSpeaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise. The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.
According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:
In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]
The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).
All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.
Being predestined (something spoken including the thought) When the Word started creating/creation and since....QuoteJesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:(Rays)
in this way doesnt it show how the Word was begotten and not created, but his physical, Jesus, was created.
Im will end this here because i know in this post my thoughts are everywhere because my niece and nephew keep interrupting in mid thought.
What do you guys think on this?
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps i didnt get to fully finish Reading Rays 12 Truths to Understanding Scripture again (i've read it before but its been awhile) before i posted this so i may be way off base, If so im sorry.
Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?
Roy, my overall impression of the paper was that Ray did what Trinity theorists don't do...that is he stuck with what scripture we have and didn't venture 'extra-biblically' to explain it. Now..how can he, or you, or I 'explain' God? We can find statements in scripture that describe certain characteristics of God, and teach/believe them as Truth. But even the scriptures don't explain or define 'Spirit', tell us exactly HOW God created the Heavens and the Earth, what existed before it's creation, what the interaction and relationship of Spirit to the Physical is all about, how God will raise the dead, none of the characteristics of God. When it comes to God, the scriptures themselves are parables. Does the Father have hands, a face, a backside? What is Spirit? What is Love, even?
So we have scripture that says the Son is both created and begotten. Makes me feel a little like Peter after Jesus 'explained' a parable. "Yes, Lord, I understand now." Oh really? I'm very sure that the Scriptures go deeper than I know now, but I'm convinced beyond being unconvinced that we cannot know now what those words really MEAN when it comes to God. To Rays' credit, I think, he doesn't go where Angels fear to tread. All language 'falls short of the Glory of God'. All we have are symbols, because in the end, that's what words themselves are.
Adam and Eve were created, everyone else since then were born, does that mean we are not created? I am sorry I just cannot comprehend what the point is. ???
Peace,
Joe
Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?
Hello Roy,
First off, thank you for your simpler, more direct post. I am a simple man who likes to get right to the meat of a discussion.
Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ.
Whether you wish to say begotten or created, Christ did not come out of himself. He did not exist but through the Father. So the Father, not Christ himself, brought Him into existence. Begotten or created, it is still out of the Father.
And when you say 'a created Christ is part of creation' and we are not to worship, it seems to say we are not to worship Christ in the flesh since all flesh is created by God. But the apostles did throughout his ministry. If that is not what you mean to say, I apologize.
One last note, I have yet to see why this particular subject is of great spiritual importance. You state that is is, but how does this issue edify anyone in whether they state begotten or created? Does it make one more spiritually mature? Is this an issue that keeps one from being of the Elect? It's a matter of words and they both (begotten & created) state that Christ came out of the Father which are the very words that Christ said himself (John 16:27-28).
Hopefully, instead of more & more post about begotten & created, there can be at least one post that shows, if any, what the spiritual importance of using one word or the other. This really reminds me of doctrine debates & issues that Paul repeatedly tells us to avoid getting in a big huff about (Titus 3:9).
Thanks,
Marques
Hi! Anthony
I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".
Hi! Marques
Thank you for your kind comments.
I will now attempt to answer the rest.
Your quote: "Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ."
My Reply: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." (Titus 3:9). In what way, brother, is this discussion causing foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes? No one has got hot under the collar or fallen out or got nasty, we are after all seeking the truth and the truth can only be ascertained by careful and measured discussion, which this is. And far from it being unprofitable and worthless it is of great importance. We are commanded in the first commandment of God: “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:3-5).
Would you not say that a created christ is a part of the creation, a creature? If a creature then christ by name (false) but idol by intent. We are also told that many false christs and false prophets have gone out, would you accept any of these false christs and worship them?
This is the spirit of the antichrist "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. " (1Jn.4:3). Have I or anyone here confessed that Jesus is not the Son God? So in what way does it give an impression of the antichrist?
Brother I mean well, it is for our edification that I say these things not to cause discord or friction, believe me I'm being very sincere because I love you all and would do nothing to offend. Pray on it brother, I beg you, I can see a gap as wide as East is to West between the meaning of begotten and created when applied to God and Deity. It is a unique difference only applicable to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Creator and Saviour Lord, and I pray to God that you'll see it to.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
QuoteHi! Anthony
I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".
LOL :D I knew it was getting long too when I was writing it and believe me, i wanted to keep going, but those dang kids, bless their hearts.
I agree their is a huge gap. For all those who dont see a difference, think about why in all of Gods inspired Word that all the verses say He(Word) was BORN of God and it never states he was created.
I also agree with Roy about this thread. We are seeking the Truth and we are doing it among like minded believers. Isn't this better than discussing this with some other believers. If you are seeing conflict in this thread (which i dont) imagine the conflict outside of us. Imagine having this conversation with a catholic!! (think about that one, get it) LOL :D
Me personally, when i post something I am hoping that in some way i may be wrong that someone could show me to the Truth. But that is why we should all back up everything we say with as many scriptures as possible.
In closing like Roy said we all mean well here and if someone doesnt Kat and Mods kicks him out
In Love,
Anthony
oh Marques im the same way the simplier the better. I try to make everything simple because Gods i need his Word simplified to me also
Another thing...
If we are to praise Jesus, what would have been the point of Him introducing us to the Father?
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I believe this sums up the answer to your question Anthony, if we love, praise, follow and exalt Jesus Christ we are also doing the very same thing to His and our Father as they are of One Mind and One Spirit. When we worship Christ we are worshipping the Father who sent Him to us, Christ is the perfect Ambassador for God our Father.
Peace,
Joe
I think a little review of Ray's article 'Is God a Close Trinity or an Open Family' will help us get our bearings on this matter.
Who and What is GOD?
"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).
"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).
"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).
"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).
"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)
"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).
"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).
"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).
"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).
Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).
"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS !
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
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mercy, peace and love
Kat