bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on May 23, 2015, 02:18:04 PM
-
I had purchased the Lake of fire book by Ray from Lulu awhile back as a gift to my friends that go to church every Sunday and are always talking about God.
Its been at least six months since I had purchased the book for my friends and I would speak to them about the things Ray was teaching from scripture and our conversations were positive at least it seemed to be.
After dinning out with my girlfriend last night we had stopped over our friends home and were conversing about many things concerning Ray’s writings and my friends had indicated that Ray’s writings were leading me and anyone else who believed what Ray was saying down the wrong road .
They maintain that eternal damnation is real and that hell does exist , I’m not sure if my approach to help them with their understanding was the way to go but I had said to my friends in a loving way that God is calling out for Himself a people here and now and those He is calling are His elect and the number of God’s elect is 144,000 now there are six billion people on planet earth today alone not to mention all the other generations before us, I asked them if they believed a loving God who knows the ends from the beginning would inflict such pain and torment on helpless creatures as ourselves knowing so many would not be saved and more over how can one hold up the scriptures in one hand and say I have good news for you but in the other hand say there is a hell you will go to if you don’t submit to the laws of God not because you don’t want to but because you can’t of your own power.
Its incredible to me that scriptures like ( when His judgements are in the earth then the inhabitants shall learn righteousness ) or ( Jesus, savior of the world especially of those who believe ) and many other scriptures mean nothing when it comes to eternal damnation and a place called hell.
Only God can remove the blindness of His own creation, I know there will come a time when God will vindicate His good name and until then I guess we need to have patience with those who walk in darkness of His truths.
God will bless us all in His time, until then most of us remain cursed until the savior comes into our lives.
-
Why are you trying to change peoples minds? Cast not your pearl before the swine. What God has planned will be. Everyman will be saved in his own order.
Its like Christ said;
John 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, WHAT IS THAT TO THEE? follow thou me.
Matthew 8:22 But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
I say all this with love.
God bless,
Alex
-
Hi Alex,
You ask a valid question, why do I try to change peoples minds ? Answer, I don’t, remember these are good friends of mine, they have a deep belief in God !
What I have done was nothing more than put the truth in front of them, the rest is up to God not me or even them but of God, would you agree with that statement ?
I know Christ said don’t cast your pearls before swine’s before He commissioned the apostles to go out and preach the kingdom of God to all the nations.
What constitutes a swine in God’s judgement ? How does one preach the kingdom of God to all the nations and exclude the swine’s in the process? Except they hear the word of God how can they believe and if no one is sent how can they hear, no wonder scripture says how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the kingdom of God.
There are some who say why try! Why bother its just a waste of time , but I for one am thankful Christ didn’t say why try, why bother.
-
Here's what I say:
"So you believe there are billions and billions of people under our feet right now, in horrible excruciating pain, being burned with real fire that will never end for trillions and trillions of years?"
They will usually tell you "well, not really, but it's something bad ... " because they have never really thought about it.
None of us cannot save anyone from anything. We all believe what God has predetermined we will believe. Just be grateful you know what you know. It's just not their time yet.
-
Rick,
Your's is a tough position to be in. Especially with good friends and or relatives.
I agree with the counsel given by Dennis. I know from my own experience that we are not helping our friends by giving them knowledge that they cannot digest. It is more important to use the knowledge that we have and the spiritual understanding we have been gifted with to continue being a good and loving example. This can be done without even mentioning our own beliefs and the understanding we have learned via God's spirit; but it is hard, especially when we are sure that our friends are just as or even more intelligent than we are and could easily understand IF they only heard the right teaching.
Wrong Kemosabe! They have been blinded and cannot grasp what God has hidden from them.
Maybe we could consider that God sets the time table AND God wants each of us to honor His timetable and not try to subvert it for our own "valid seeming" reasons.... ::)
When the apostles were sent out to teach the dispersed Jews, they were admonished to visit each little town and teach the gospel and when they were rejected by the local inhabitants they were to shake the dust of that city from their feet and leave...
Matthew 10:12-14
Mark 6:11
Luke 9:5
Please also notice that this command was given to Jews who were visiting the houses of other Jews who were expected to welcome them and even feed them during the visit.
7 He summoned the Twelve and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over unclean spirits. 8 He instructed them to take nothing for the journey but a walking stick—no food, no sack, no money in their belts. 9 They were, however, to wear sandals but not a second tunic. 10 He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave from there. 11 Whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, leave there and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them.” 12 So they went off and preached repentance. 13 They drove out many demons, and they anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them.
-
Hi Alex,
You ask a valid question, why do I try to change peoples minds ? Answer, I don’t, remember these are good friends of mine, they have a deep belief in God !
What I have done was nothing more than put the truth in front of them, the rest is up to God not me or even them but of God, would you agree with that statement ?
I know Christ said don’t cast your pearls before swine’s before He commissioned the apostles to go out and preach the kingdom of God to all the nations.
What constitutes a swine in God’s judgement ? How does one preach the kingdom of God to all the nations and exclude the swine’s in the process? Except they hear the word of God how can they believe and if no one is sent how can they hear, no wonder scripture says how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the kingdom of God.
There are some who say why try! Why bother its just a waste of time , but I for one am thankful Christ didn’t say why try, why bother.
Hi Rick,
I would not agree with your statement. It sounds like the works of the flesh to me.
Peter says be ready to give an answer to those who ASK you for the reason of your hope.
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
You can do what peter admonishes and still put the truth infront of your friends without ever speaking a word.
Ray was a light shinning in the darkness, he was a teacher ordained by God. He didn't go anywhere, to anyone, but rather men saw the light and they were drawn to it. Many hated the light but a few were drawn in closer. Even in preaching ray didn't go find people to preach to but rather God brought them to him through His divine plan.
Matthew 5:14-16
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
If you are walking in the spirit and not after the flesh then your actions will shine a light everywhere you go and people will see that light. We are a city on a hill with its bright light shinning into the darkness. That cannot be hid! Your Father in heaven will be glorified when men see your good works--That is the light! If they come to you after this then you will know that God has brought them and given you exactly what He wants you to say to them.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
As the old saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words." In this case, if you are Christ's then you will bear good fruit and no one will be able to deny that even if they hate you.
1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Obedience is key!
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Through this there can be no doubt that the spirit of God resides in you and that you speak the truth in Christ.
God bless,
Alex
P.S. A mind convinced against its will is of the same opinion still ;)
-
Just be grateful you know what you know. It's just not their time yet.
Hello Dennis,
I understand what you mean and very thankful for what I know.
-
Your's is a tough position to be in. Especially with good friends and or relatives.
Thanks Bob,
It is a tough position to be in and it sounds like you speak from experience also. You know how hard it can be when you see your friend living a lie and rejecting the truth and there is nothing you can do to persuade them with truth.
-
Hi Alex,
You ask a valid question, why do I try to change peoples minds ? Answer, I don’t, remember these are good friends of mine, they have a deep belief in God !
What I have done was nothing more than put the truth in front of them, the rest is up to God not me or even them but of God, would you agree with that statement ?
I know Christ said don’t cast your pearls before swine’s before He commissioned the apostles to go out and preach the kingdom of God to all the nations.
What constitutes a swine in God’s judgement ? How does one preach the kingdom of God to all the nations and exclude the swine’s in the process? Except they hear the word of God how can they believe and if no one is sent how can they hear, no wonder scripture says how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the kingdom of God.
There are some who say why try! Why bother its just a waste of time , but I for one am thankful Christ didn’t say why try, why bother.
Hi Rick,
I would not agree with your statement. It sounds like the works of the flesh to me.
Hello Alex,
Im over my friends house and they start telling me things about God I know are not true and I tell them the truth as I know it how does that sound like the work of the flesh to you, you yourself quoted Peter who said be ready to give an answer, I gave them the best answer anyone could, I bought them Ray’s book that can explain things better than I can.
I am not a teacher but I will always point out where the truth can be found even if it affects my wallet or like the old saying goes put your money where your mouth is at.
-
It's always good to talk to people that believe the gospel we believe, but in all reality how many people in your household believe even a small percentage of what you believe?
How many in your group of friends, or the people you work with, anyone in your town, or even in the same state where you live are there that are like minded?
You may lose some friends, there are many cases where a witness is either accepted or killed.
Joel
-
I discovered it was all in vain.
Ah, but it's not in vain. It is a tiny seed that was planted which may or may not bear any fruit. At some point God may give them a desire to search these things out and the few chapters that they might of read from the series may peak their interest at some point in the future. God first got his hook in me with Ray's tithing paper as I was a big believer in the prosperity gospel. I wanted to argue with Ray about what he wrote but he bookended is so well that I couldn't. I then started to read the website and when I began the LOF series I thought Ray to be a heretic. His tithing paper was good so I reasoned that even a blind squirrel can find a nut occasionally. Several months later after I had 'forgot' about Ray and the website I was bored one day and came back and began to seriously read and question what I was taught and the rest was history. It is never in vain to plant the seed and that is what you did and furthermore that is all that God asked you to do at this point.
-
How many in your group of friends, or the people you work with, anyone in your town, or even in the same state where you live are there that are like minded?
Hi Joel,
In truth Joel, I haven’t come across any who believe as I do , many claim they believe in God but in reality the God they believe in is not the God I believe in.
I’ve come across people who say they don’t believe in God at all , to these people I don’t have a clue what to say, for the most part I usually say nothing because if one cannot see intelligent’s behind the design of our universe let alone the earth I’m at a lost of words for those people.
These are not my regular run of the mill friends in that these friends are always bringing God up in most conversation which I think is awesome, they won’t eat unless they first thank Jesus for the food and they go to church every Sunday, and so its because of these things they do that I became inspired to put Ray’s book in their hand, could you think of a better book than the lake of fire series to give to your friends?
I understand they are deep into Christendom as I once was also but have been blessed with some truth that now keeps me from returning back to the deception that once had me in bondage.
Perhaps my disappointment was in the hope I had for them that they too would come to know the truth concerning God and understanding God is not this monster who can’t wait to beat us over the head and then throw us into this fiery hell hole most of Christendom believes in.
But still I have no regrets giving them Ray’s book.
-
I discovered it was all in vain.
It is never in vain to plant the seed and that is what you did and furthermore that is all that God asked you to do at this point.
Amen Arion, Amen
-
Rick, if you find one person in the next 10 years who believes you, you would be on a roll, good luck. Ricky
-
All of this just goes to illustrate that God desires to do His work with the minimum number of people. It will be HIS work and HIS power that accomplishes the work.
So God chooses the weak of the world and the base things and grants them HIS power and HIS abilities and directs them with the hand of HIS only begotten son.
In Judges 7: 1-28 God defeated 135,000 Midianites with only 300 men of Gideon
That is only one of many examples of how God works.
The same principle applies to God's work with the "body of Christ".
We will be the tools but it will be God's work that is seen being accomplished.
-
Rick, if you find one person in the next 10 years who believes you, you would be on a roll, good luck. Ricky
After years of searching , going to different denomination, and living with a certain fear of the after life when I thought about God and my destiny as a sinner I was totally turned off because nothing was really conclusive that would comfort my thoughts concerning the time of my death and final spiritual destination .
When I had first read Ray’s writing a peace came over me instantly, the way Ray presented his writings using multiple scriptures to prove God’s truth was incredible to me. Why was I able to believe while smarter people than me disbelieve ?
I can only conclude God is calling me if it were not so then I would be numbered with the disbelievers and Ray’s detractors.
Everything we do in this life is by cause and I know God caused me to purchase Ray’s book then caused me to give it as a gift to my friends and no doubt one day God will cause my friends to believe the truth Ray laid down in his book the lake of fire.
Its my hope it doesn’t take my friends ten years, personally I don’t think we have ten years left in this aged.
-
It will be HIS work and HIS power that accomplishes the work.
We will be the tools but it will be God's work that is seen being accomplished.
Hello Bob,
Now that statement is a statement of pure truth, it don’t get any purer than that! :)
-
Hi Ricky,
No politics, just a comment from an old Insurance salesman.
The "premiums" that we give the insurance company or the deductions we give SSA are not all saved up or deposited into an account for our future. Generally the funds deposited are used up in each calendar year to pay for persons who file claims in that year.
Consequently, it is necessary that new members are found to keep the funds coming in.
It operates like a so called "Ponzi scheme" which has limited life and SSA began about 1938 so you can see that it won't last much longer if it even has any funds now.
So presently SSA recipients are being paid out of current taxes and the Federal Reserve is printing "funny money" as fast as they can. It will last as long as the grocery store will accept your U.S. dollars and not a day longer. :-[
Have any Greek Euros??
edited to remove a quote--Dave
-
I pulled a pair of partisan politic posts. Carry on.
-
Thanks Dave,
It's good that you are on your toes, we need to be a neutral as possible.
All humans are basically the same.
Ecclesiastes 12:8
-
Hi Rick,
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
v. 15 People don't light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
v. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."
I brought this Scripture because I believe that we can be witnesses of the truth (light) by the way we live, the things we say and our conduct before others. This is how we let our "light shine" to any and everyone sees that we are overcoming the flesh by living this truth and putting on Christ.
Mat 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
I have been in situations where I disagreed with what was being said and I said so, I think people may think you agree if you remain silent, but I seldom go further, certainly don't get up and preach to them. I believe throwing our pearls before swine is when you speak these precious truths before people that have shown no indication that they desire to know these things or throwing these truth out to random people your around hoping somebody will get it and believe it, IMO that's what that Scripture is speaking of.
God knows those few chosen to be His elect, before the foundation of the world and I believe He has been preparing and dealing with them all their lives. Even with those God does not open their eyes until He is ready to show them these truths and He can certainly show them where to find BT and this group whenever He desires.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
v. 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Thats right Kat! He opens are eyes here a little, there little. Precept upon precept, line upon line. I agree with you Kat that God Knows His Elect and has been dealing with them there whole lives!
Psa 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death...
You just don't come here and believe these teaching on your own! God certainly has to bring you here and open your eyes to the truths being taught at these two web sites, forums bible truths and exposing those who contradict. I know a few christian that have read some of LRays teachings and said he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. They came and they were kept from the truth, God never opened there eyes. Its not for them yet, each in their own order... Thanks Kat :D
-
Hi Rick,
The way I see it if we are lead by the Spirit of God, nothing he has us to do is in vain.
There are some Jehovah's Witnesses that have been leaving material at my front door lately when we aren't at home.
I have some of Ray's material printed out also, and intend to give it to them if we are home the next time they come knocking. I won't be disappointed if they don't bite, it's all in God's hands.
Joel
-
Rick you don't think we have 10 years left till the end of the age.. If I were to agree with you I'd be a date setter... If I disagreed I'd be a fool. May He come quickly.
-
The most folks that I have any dealing with, and that include most my family, are the church folks! And dealing with them for most of the time that I met Ray and came across his teaching on the salvation of all, I have learned one thing; Folks are going to believe what they believe until God Himself open their eyes! And that's the way it is! Tim
-
I have been in situations where I disagreed with what was being said and I said so, I think people may think you agree if you remain silent, but I seldom go further,
Hello Kat,
Sounds like good advise, at least it would be easier that way. I felt compelled to tell my friends the truth, the thing now to do is not say anything further unless they ask me to explain why I believe as I do but for the most part, I placed in their hand a great book full of truth, what they do with is up to God and God only.
I will also like to say maybe God was showing me through my friends that for once in my life I was steadfast in my understanding an belief in my God given truth laid out by Ray.
For the first time in my spiritual life or belief my foundation was not shaken and filled with doubt because of their disbelief of these truths that we here at B.T. have come to understand and cherish. Maybe that’s what God was showing me, that no longer am I a leaf in the wind but now have a sure foundation to plant my feet upon. :)
-
Hi Rick,
The way I see it if we are lead by the Spirit of God, nothing he has us to do is in vain.
Hi Joel,
Only now can I see my threat title was worded poorly and without much thought.
Surely your right about that. I’m beginning to think it wasn’t about my friends as much as it was about me, my whole life was lived as doubting Tomas.
Always doubting what I was being taught about God or at least going back and forth with it, only now can I see God caused me to always doubt, somehow He protected me and reserved me for a much later time in my life and that time is now.
I think many can relate to these things I say.
-
Rick you don't think we have 10 years left till the end of the age.. If I were to agree with you I'd be a date setter... If I disagreed I'd be a fool. May He come quickly.
Hi Largeli,
I know not the day or hour but my personal belief is we are in the day’s of Noah and the kingdom of God is at hand. I don’t have two scriptures to back that statement up and if someone tells you they do don’t believe them. :)
-
Folks are going to believe what they believe until God Himself open their eyes! And that's the way it is! Tim
Hello Tim,
That is so true Tim but we are blessed to understand this no free will thing , and only God can change our mind and heart and until then we remain the same made in vanity people we are.
-
I too have spoken of our beliefs when it seems the right thing to do. If someone asks me sbout it, then I can speak in greater detail.
Rick, you said in your first post " and the number of God’s elect is 144,000 " . It is not your understanding that is a literal number, is it? Ray taught all those numbers signified something else. just hoped you could clarify.
-
Rick, you said in your first post " and the number of God’s elect is 144,000 " . It is not your understanding that is a literal number, is it? Ray taught all those numbers signified something else. just hoped you could clarify.
Hello Octoberose,
I know the book of Revelation is a book of signs and symbols and that the 144,000 is not a literal
number. My friend mentioned 144,000 earlier in the conversation so I used 144,000 to point out that he was suggesting that of all the people who were, are and will be with the exception of the 144,000 are lost , condemn to eternal damnation.
So in his understanding God can only save 144,000 and the rest won’t make it not realizing more people will be saved after death than before death which will be in the great fall harvest.
-
Octoberose and Rick,
Have you noticed that people of all the tribes were listed EXCEPT for the tribe of DAN.
Why make that exception?
What other differences from the original children of (Jacob) Israel and why?
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
-
Thanks for pointing out something I didn't know Indiana ! :)