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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: ciy on August 10, 2006, 10:29:20 PM
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Interesting article in Newsweek this week. Billy Graham is now a believer in universalism. I hope he finds the whole truth of many called few chosen. He seems to really be seeking the truth now.
Amazing how God works.
CIY
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I skimmed the article and is this the part you are talking about:
When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have." Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham's view, only God knows who is going to be saved
I don't think you can say he is a believer in universalism based on this comment. If there is more I must have missed it.
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I read the article as well and came to the same conclusion as prayrydog.
A unifying theme of Graham's new thinking is humility. He is sure and certain of his faith in Jesus as the way to salvation. When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have." Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham's view, only God knows who is going to be saved: "As an evangelist for more than six decades, Mr. Graham has faithfully proclaimed the Bible's Gospel message that Jesus is the only way to Heaven," says Graham spokesman A. Larry Ross. "However, salvation is the work of Almighty God, and only he knows what is in each human heart."
Bill
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There were other implications of his belief that is now different from other famous leaders such as Jerry Falwell. There were the sentences how all the conservative religious leaders differed now with Graham. Franklin Graham remarks that he does not believe like his daddy. If Billy Graham believes that all are going to end up in heaven what do you call it?
An article by Tom Flannery, a religious journalist, entitled Billy Graham's Apostasy is completely about his new belief that all will go to heaven. The following quote,
"After more than six decades spent preaching the Gospel – the truth that we can only be saved by God's grace through faith alone in Christ – Billy Graham now says non-Christians in other faiths (false religions) and secular humanists may be going to heaven."
The quote you posted "Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute." This is a 180 degree turn from his patented sermon that Jesus is the only way.
Maybe it is a matter of opinion, but I do not think so. I believe Billy Graham is coming to the true truth, and I think it is something to rejoice about.
CIY
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Hello CIY,
If he does believe that Christ will save all I do not think it is clear in the article and yes if God has showed this to him we should rejoice but I think that is going to be Billy's little secret.
"After more than six decades spent preaching the Gospel – the truth that we can only be saved by God's grace through faith alone in Christ – Billy Graham now says non-Christians in other faiths (false religions) and secular humanists may be going to heaven."
Christ might not save all he will save all.
The quote you posted "Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute." This is a 180 degree turn from his patented sermon that Jesus is the only way.
There is no won't about it. He will save all.
Maybe it is a matter of opinion, but I do not think so. I believe Billy Graham is coming to the true truth, and I think it is something to rejoice about.
CIY
Yes, it might be a matter of opinion. But per the article he does not yet seem convinced or he is keeping that to himself.
Bill
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If you do not see this as a mega move for Billy Graham from where he was to what he is saying now, then we just are not seeing the article the same. I believe you will see more people remarking of his new beliefs and I believe some will say it is just because he is a senile old man. I believe it is because he started seeing the love of God better especially after the antisemitic tapes were released in 2002. He started studying the scriptures more and began to see the truth.
Go to World Net Daily and read the article by Tom Flannery. I believe he, like many in the religious society, already know about his change of belief.
But when it boils down to it, if he is he is if he ain't he ain't. Like us all it is all about the conditions of our hearts. Only God knows our hearts.
CIY
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I believe Billy Graham is coming to the true truth, and I think it is something to rejoice about.
Amen ciy!
I've always felt in my spirit that Billy Graham was and is a man of God. It would be wonderful if Billy Graham received the truth of UR before he dies. I think we should all pray that happens!
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Andy I agree. I think we should pray for the continuation of Billy Graham's revelation of Jesus Christ.
One more quote from the article by Tom Flannery:
"Meacham hails Graham's conversion (so to speak) on the primary issue of salvation as an enlightened ecumenism, when it's really nothing more than age-old universalism – the erroneous idea that all roads lead to God and we're all going to get to heaven one way or another. This is the "I'm all right, you're all right" philosophy of the world."
CIY
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Hi all,
I'm not trying to divert the subject, I hope its a simple answer....but in reading this thread I am forming a question. What is the difference between "universalism" and "a universalist" ?
Thanks for anything you can tell me,
Chuck
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Hi all,
I'm not trying to divert the subject, I hope its a simple answer....but in reading this thread I am forming a question. What is the difference between "universalism" and "a universalist" ?
Thanks for anything you can tell me,
Chuck
One is a belief and the other is a person that believes the belief. Just like Christianity and Christian or Islam and Muslim. A universalist believes in universalism.
Bill
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I hope this is the explanation you were looking for, Chuck.
-ism
suff.
Action; process; practice
-ist
suff.
One that performs a specified action
n.
Universalism
Theology. The doctrine of universal salvation.
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I think if he were seriously contemplating universal Salvation, he would declare it openly. He has changed a lot of his thoughts over the years; for instance, he put up a fight when his daughter told him she wanted to preach and now he appears to be fine with it. I agree with bobby, he seems to hold to political correctness too tightly. If God is revealing truth to BG, then praise God.
Jenny
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From what has been said and quoted here, there is only a weakening of a strong position. My guess is that if Billy now truly believes in UR he is breaking it to the world gradually rather than making that radical 180 change that leaves most people shaking their heads.
feat
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Hi all,
I'm not trying to divert the subject, I hope its a simple answer....but in reading this thread I am forming a question. What is the difference between "universalism" and "a universalist" ?
Thanks for anything you can tell me,
Chuck
Well, to be honest I meant what do YOU think it is? I'm not sure being associated with that term is a good thing. And no, it wasn't a trick question, in case you are thinking that now.
What I was trying to ask, without taking the thread the wrong way or offending anyone was this:
If one is open to Universalism, why does that make them a Universalist? In most cases, terms like that don't refer to concepts that can be explained in a sentence or two. I was looking for YOUR angle on this. Putting in a simple web search for "universalist" brings up things I don't agree with.
I feel like this is too far off the original subject so.....just wanted to say thanks for the responses.
Thanks,
Chuck
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Chuck when someone would ask what denomination I belong to I give them the same answer(a good one by the way) that Ray gave when asked this question:
THE SAME ONE JESUS BELONGS TO
I personally do not hold either title you posted but this is the one I feel comforatble with:
A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST AND HIS TRUTH.
What church do you belong to:
THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
bobby
Hi Bob,
That is a very good way of putting it. I read Rays thoughts on that and I agree, but I bet it raises some eyebrows from time to time!!!!
My point was to see WHY anyone puts labels on someone. It seems that being a "Universalist" is just another "denomination". I don't want ANY labels on me, and I won't accept it.
I don't know anything about Mr. G. other than the fact that I've seen him on TV and I know he is a Christian, so I have no issue with him or the members who posted. I am just curious.
So here it is:
I AM A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST AND HIS TRUTH!
I BELONG TO THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD!
God Bless,
Chuck
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Chuck when someone would ask what denomination I belong to I give them the same answer(a good one by the way) that Ray gave when asked this question:
THE SAME ONE JESUS BELONGS TO
I personally do not hold either title you posted but this is the one I feel comforatble with:
A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST AND HIS TRUTH.
What church do you belong to:
THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
bobby
Hi Bob,
.........................
So here it is:
I AM A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST AND HIS TRUTH!
I BELONG TO THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD!
God Bless,
Chuck
Hi Bobby & Chuck!
I like it! That's where I belong too. I'll use your quotes if you don't mind.
Love,
Marie
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This would be my thoughts on Billy Graham and his new found thinking!
First........ he says that he thinks that everyone may be going to heaven. I have a problem with that right there because what the Spirit has shown me is that no man goes to heaven.
When we die......we die. It will take being resurrected to live again which we then will be given immortality.
Second..... according to scripture, the doctrine of UR is just milk of the word. When BG starts talking about spiritual meat and it lines up with the doctrine of Christ, then I will
listen to the man.
If God decides to remove his blindness, then I will rejoice. I wish everyone could have eyes to see and ears to hear, but it's all according to God's Will and His good purpose!
I will say a prayer for him.
Alan
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Even if Billy Graham believes that All will be saved, we need to remember that this doctrine is still milk and not meat.
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/liebe/love-smiley-073.gif)
(Heb 6:1 KJVR)
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(Heb 6:2 KJVR) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
I agree with chuckusa but think we should refrain from using terms like universalism, universalist, etc. Many organizations (christian and pseudo-christian) have adopted this term and their many of their teachings have distorted God’s word.
For anyone who is interested in learning about some of these terms there are several sources that go into detail about some of the confusion about the use of these terms.
For the early church this was never an issue, today these labels used by theologians have become confusing and misused and abused.
There are hundreds of scriptures that support that ALL will be saved and we do not have to label this truth. Let us all try to remember always that this is milk. For many christians even this milk is too tough to swallow.
I understand the need to learn to be precise with our language, so a review of this material is not a bad thing.
Beloved
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Even if Billy Graham believes that All will be saved, we need to remember that this doctrine is still milk and not meat.
There are hundreds of scriptures that support that ALL will be saved and we do not have to label this truth. Let us all try to remember always that this is milk. For many christians even this milk is too tough to swallow.
I understand the need to learn to be precise with our language, so a review of this material is not a bad thing.
Beloved
Hello Beloved,
Even after reading all of Ray's material, I am still confused as to what is milk and what is beef, scripturally that is. You state the understanding that all will be saved is milk. Where's the beef? ;)
Since the promised land is a land flowing with mlk and honey, do the meat eaters get disappointed. ;D
Seriously though, what in your opinion, qualifies as "meat"?
feat
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Hello Beloved,
Even after reading all of Ray's material, I am still confused as to what is milk and what is beef, scripturally that is. You state the understanding that all will be saved is milk. Where's the beef? ;)
Since the promised land is a land flowing with mlk and honey, do the meat eaters get disappointed. ;D
Seriously though, what in your opinion, qualifies as "meat"?
feat
Christ living in us and through us, and dying to self is the meat. IMO
Craig
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The article in Newsweek said that Billy Graham did not begin to change his belief until 2002 when the Nixon tapes were released. I had no idea BG had started this change back in 97. I thought this new direction was a chink in his religious armor and had the possibility of directing him to the whole truth. Apparently it is a much slower process for him.
I still think this movement in his belief shows that BG is like a lot of us who know that religion's doctrine is not right he just cannot completely let go of all the traditions of man that he has preached for 60 years. I think it is also interesting that probably over 90% of his followers do not know of his belief change. I do not want to make too much of the accuracy or depths of his new beliefs, I just love to see how God works in lives and it just sometimes gives greater strength when we see a known personality change in a direction toward the truth. This may be the early stages of a complete conversion to the truth. From your interview to the Newsweek article, it certainly looks like BG is wrestling with the truth. I love God's plan.
CIY
PS - Bobby you posted while I was writing. I think we are seeing a man deep in doctrine wrestling with the truth and using his own understanding to figure it out. Amazing he goes from believing Jesus is the only way to believing he is not, but I pray that God will reveal to him that Jesus is the only way. It is just a different process from the 11 second pray way he preached for so many years.
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I say let us pray for God's will in his life!!!
bobby
Amen brother! That's an excellent idea!
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Did anyone see DateLine on Sunday and the feature about the preacher Carlton Pearson.
When he was watching the suffering in Rowanda, he got the revelation that there was no Hell and that All would be saved. He started preaching it .
It was interesting but no surprise to see the responses from the major players. To be expected most of his congregation left him, he could not pay for his church and was evicted and he also lost the support of his "friends" I would love to read the multipage letter from his mentor Oral Roberts.
Well it will be interesting if God reveals more to Mr Pearson.
Beloved
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Topaz
I started this thread simply because I thought it was great news to see someone of Billy Graham's history still seeking more truths in the scriptures. And it appears to me that he has taken a giant step in the right direction. I still think it is remarkable after listening to many of his past sermons more than once to see what God is doing to him at 80 something years old. Example of the greatness of God.
It has nothing to do with whether this forum is UR or not. Read all of Ray's stuff and see what you think.
I do believe that everyone will be in "heaven" (see Ray's writing) and not "hell" (see Ray's writing) at different times and all will be reconciled to God in the lake of fire.
CIY
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Topaz
Do not get me wrong. I do not think you spoke out of turn or anything. Do not restrain yourself when you have a question or idea.
God Bless you for your curiousity and the desires of your heart.
CIY
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Did anyone see DateLine on Sunday and the feature about the preacher Carlton Pearson.
When he was watching the suffering in Rowanda, he got the revelation that there was no Hell and that All would be saved. He started preaching it .
It was interesting but no surprise to see the responses from the major players. To be expected most of his congregation left him, he could not pay for his church and was evicted and he also lost the support of his "friends" I would love to read the multipage letter from his mentor Oral Roberts.
Well it will be interesting if God reveals more to Mr Pearson.
Beloved
I heard about it and set the PVR to record it but have not had the chance to watch it yet.
Now you peaked my interest some more. Maybe tonight.
Bill
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Just go to NBC or MSNBC to their Dateline page and you can watch the entire interview. I am very familiar with Carlton Pearson and his Inclusionist idea. Ray Definelty says he is NOT a universalist.
Ray also has said about BG that the bible says we will be hated of all people and persecuted......BG has more accolades and rewards and honor bestowed on him than anyone....so you decide....(ps, I just listened to his audio on the kingdom and this is where he talks about BG-can get it on www.aonios.com-not sure of that spelling) You can still get audios from Ray on Mike's site. Also Joe mentioned the google site for 2 videos.
ciy, bless your heart!! Yes, all you did was get excited that a "great man of God" might be catching on. As a pentecostal, we all thought he was secretly speaking in other tongues and believed healing is for today. I would love for people to catch on...but I think the chosen are a very small group. Ray goes WAY beyond UR in opening up the truth of scripture.
But that pales to the commandments-Love God and Your neighbor. Thats where its at!
Love ya all and appreciate all your comments all the time. Even Sorin and Feat bless me. I always learn something. (where did I get off on this??) Gena
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Just go to NBC or MSNBC to their Dateline page and you can watch the entire interview. I am very familiar with Carlton Pearson and his Inclusionist idea. Ray Definelty says he is NOT a universalist.
To Hell And Back (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/)
Bill
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Thanks Bill. I don't know how to do that! The youtubes and where people just say look "here" and it is a link. Amazes me.
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Thanks Bill. I don't know how to do that! The youtubes and where people just say look "here" and it is a link. Amazes me.
This is what I typed to creat the above link
[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/]To Hell And Back[/url]
Bill
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Bill, where did you get the code from??
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I watched the Dateline episode with Carlton Pearson. Before I came to the knowledge of the truths of God, I was a BIG fan of Pearson's. That man KNEW how to preach, and really used to break down the word like no other. I watched his appearance on TBN back in 2003 when he presented his new revelation(I wasn't quite converted at that time, but he did interest me with what he said). Of course, that would be his last appearance on TBN. On the Dateline segment, he showed great remorse, and even shed a few tears, when he talked about how Oral Roberts shunned him after Pearson's paradigm shift. And his story about how the church in San Francisco treated him when he went there to preach was very heartwarming. I am a bit disheartened though by his doctrine of inclusion. I don't think he believes that people who haven't come to Christ have to go through the Lake of Fire at all...there saved regardless. And worse, he DOES believe that those who have tasted the good works of God and have been saved, but "backslide", are bound for hell.
I do have to say that despite all that he's lost after revealing his new beliefs, he certainly has held fast in his convictions, even though that loss was tremendous.
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Bill, where did you get the code from??
When posting you will see this icon - (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/url.gif). Highlight what you want to be a link then hit that button. That will surrond your text with the URL code.
Bill
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Thanks Bill. You know I have never even looked at these icons. I will have todo some experimenting.
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I have a real love for Carlton Pearson and watched him go further into deception after he got married. I thought that TBN really corrupted him. I didn't hear that he changed his beliefs. I still pray for him.
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I think Billy Graham and Carlton Pearson have one thing in common with the rest of us. They (like us) are all works in progress. Meaning God isn't finished with them yet. Naturally, when Holy Spirit reveals the truths of the Word of God, those who wish to share those truths will always run in to opposition (which is "where the trouble starts") from the carnally minded leaders of christiandom.
I think that as both Graham and Pearson study the scriptures, they will clearly understand them better "by and by". Because the Lord scourges every son he receives, they'll most likely feel (especially Pearson) every cannon is aimed at them. But this is part of growing in Christ, and I don't think they would want it any other way.
Ches