bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on October 21, 2007, 06:31:29 PM
-
Ray teaches that there are four things that happen with sin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
Unquote.
Are there some things that happen with forgiveness? The reason I ask this is that the following Scripture caught my eye recently.
Isa 6 : 5 Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone and ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts! 6. Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having a live coal in his hand which he had taken with tongs from off the altar; 7. And with it he touched my mouth and said, Behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity and guilt are taken away, and your sin is completely atoned for and forgiven.
We know that no one in the OT received the promises of the New Covenant so they will be in the LOF White Throne Judgement. Does this mean then that the number 4. removal of sin that Ray notes in his teaching on Repentance, will only happen at the LOF for those who have lived before the sacrifice of Christ? This is how I understand this and I believe the following Scripture is a witness : Heb 9:28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, NOT TO CARRY ANY BURDEN OF SIN NOR TO DEAL WITH SIN, but to bring to FULL SALVATION ( is this the number 4 REMOVAL of sin that Ray lists? I believe it is. ) those who are eagerly, constantly and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.
Here is what I think is correct. Those in Judgement NOW, are already having their sins removed but this process is not completed until the final test that is physical death. Only the chosen and proved faithful to death can succeed into the life with Christ at their resurrection. Is the fulfilment and completion of the removal of sin endured through chastisement and correction throughout the lives in judgment NOW as on the House of God, finalized, completed and finished (It is finished) John 19 :30 by death, the way of the cross into life with the Spirit of Christ? I think it is.
Scriptures, insights and teachings by Ray that can assist and confirm or refute and correct these thoughts would be appreciated.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Arcturus,
I found this whole chapter interesting, especially this verse (NLT) translation.
Eze 16:63 You will remember your sins and cover your mouth in silence and shame when I forgive you of all that you have done, says the Sovereign LORD."
Maybe this chapter is in line with what you are asking??
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
-
Hello Rocky
These Scriptures come to mind in response to your post.
1 John 1 :7 If we are living and walking in the Light, as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses REMOVES us from all sin and guilt.
Removes is an on going process as I see it. It is not finalised until we are born again and chosen for His Kingdom right? This side of life no one is born again as we learn from the teachings and revelations given to us through Ray. So non of us are yet born of God. Non of us are free of liability to temptations failures and weakness.
1 John 3 : 9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin.......
We can know we have left our first love on the way to perfection in Christ but we do not reach that perfection this side of life. No one knows who is chosen and who is not, yet, we can see the fruit of the lives lived around us and discern yet not know for sure who is a chosen elect.
We are all unborn. Whether we are more the aftermath or the baby of such birth that lies ahead, we have yet to find out.
2 Peter 3 : 18 But grow in grace, (Grace. Gods divine influence on our hearts ref Ray Smith http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html) and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever.
1 John 2 : 1 My little children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the all righteous upright, just, who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action.
Well that makes sense. HE ~ Jesus Christ IS the only born again Son of God at this time. Did the born again life of Christ come through His Resurrection to Life with the Father? Is this why He is always the First Son of God and the Preeminent One. I believe so. HIS ~ Jesus Christs brethren will be resurrected to life in HIM. HE was resurrected to life in the FATHER and others will be resurrected to life in the SON and become sons and daughters of the Son and heirs with the Son of the Father. Like a grandchildren right? Who can have equality and sameness of Christ? He is the seed that fell and died and others are His off spring being formed into His Image right? I think so? Any Scriptures, teachings from Ray to witness or refute this. It feels like I am taking baby steps :)...I know, I know, I am not born again ;D this could be womb wobble going on :D
The world is still in birth pangs and the chosen are not yet revealed, manifested or born yet.Ask any mother how difficult life gets in the last week of pregnancy! No wonder sin abounds. I wait for GRACE to abound much more. I do not claim that I am chosen. I might be the aftermath but hope not....
Luke 21 : 36 Keep awake then and watch at all times, be discreet, attentive and ready, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.
Scriptures, insights and teachings by Ray that can witness, assist and confirm or adjust, correct or refute, these thoughts would be appreciated.
Thank you for your contribution Rocky.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
-
To Add:
Wherefore, as by one man, sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:12, 14)
For as in Adam all die…
The flesh cannot be converted; it must be destroyed and made new.
Therefore, the "Old man" of sin must be buried, for they that are flesh can not please God.
...even so, in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men… to condemnation… (Romans 5:18a)
…even so, by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans. 5:18b)
What happens to one; happens to all. First, there is a physical death, then a spiritual (second) death (now, or at the White Throne Judgment)
which results in a "New Creation in Christ."
It is indeed, "Finished", and completed in/by Him.
- jER
-
What happens to one; happens to all. First, there is a physical death, then a spiritual (second) death (now, or at the White Throne Judgment)
which results in a "New Creation in Christ."
jER
Hi jER, do you see all going through the same process (just different times) or different process to gain same result=LIFE from the dead?
To me, both judgments result in death,
but one results in reward (works built upon the rock),
the other, no reward (works built upon the sand) with the result shame,
both=LIFE
I know Ray teaches the chosen don't experience wrath of God
is he teaching ever? or just not later?
thanks
-
Great discussion and thanks Arcturus for starting it :)
Arcturus, I agree with you in that I do not believe who the chosen are, or even if I will be counted worthy. But are we missing something, it would appear that John believed that it is possible to be born again. Please note that I am in no way in disagreement with you, just sharing a portion of Johns 1st letter. He say's: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9
This is pretty clear to me and rightfully so, for who would even want to sin being born of God? But then John follows on with: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are..." 1 John 3:10
Please know that you will never hear me state that I am perfect, far from it. ::)
However, John precludes this with the following:
1 John 3:4-6
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
WOW!!! No one who continues to sin has either seen him (I wasn't with John for sure) or known him. ???
But I do know him, or rather He has made himself known to me. John says, anyone who sins breaks the law, but was not the law fulfilled and as such made null and void?
Well let's look at what Paul says of this.....
Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
Rom 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Rom 6:13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
Rom 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever‑increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[fn2] Christ Jesus our Lord.
I want to just focus on a couple of points that Paul made in this chapter:
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
What then is sin? Does not Paul state that "we" died to sin; that our "old" self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with. Verse 7, cannot be speaking of a "physical" death, because Paul goes on to say in verse 8: " Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him." Does this not tie in perfectly with what John was saying in 1 John 3:9: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Confused? I am. ::)
I ask my question again, what is sin? Are we not free of sin? (Rom 6:7) Can we not know that through the death and Resurrection of Christ, that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1Jo 3:14) Is sin not a consequence of the law? Are we not now under grace? (Rom 6:14)
Who knows what God has planned for each one of us? Not even John himself knew.....
1Jo 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
I will close this response with the following from John, with words that should speak clearly to us all.
1Jo 3:18-24
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
I too are willing to stand corrected with anything that I have stated here.
Love to all in Christ, our Redeemer.
Darren
-
Hello Darren
Thank you for your contribution. It is precisely this kind of communication that spurs me to greater precision in my thinking and deeper desire to understand Jesus Christ and the Word of God.
Your post made me return to the fact that the Image of God is not yet complete in us. If we sin no more and are delivered out of delusion, seeing partially as in a glass mirror dimly as Peggy contributed in another thread of mine, then, Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life. Okay I see the point you make about us having the deposit of the Holy Spirit of Christ that is working in some of us yet how can we be certain who is who except by the fruit and even then can we be sure because as it is written only God can see the heart.
Earlier on in the Forum it was noted that some can pretend to have the fruit of the Spirit and be White washed Sepulchers full of dead men's bones. Okay I added the last part but see what I mean. Many holier than thou pious murderers of the sight are preventing many from entering the Kingdom of God while they stand at the door and do not enter even themselves. See?
I believe I have to trim my thoughts down to the bone and ask what is the conclusion of my thinking. My search for edification and deeper insight surrounds this question. Do we get born again this side of life or not? Scriptures may allude to this being a reality yet if we take the allusion we end up deluded because then we can fall to the temptation of believing that when sin no longer has dominion over us, that means we are no longer sinners. That is wrong thinking as I see it.
So where Ray has presented point 4. in his teaching I believe this happens as the reward to those who are chosen and resurrected to life in Christ where certainly, the Scriptures will be proved not to lie and will be fulfilled as you have noted wherein the chosen will not sin anymore and those requiring correction in the LOF will no longer die anymore and will be perfected under chastisement and wrath.
How does that sound?
Rocky you presented this Scripture : Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
I believe this is KEY to remind us that it is BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD that the declaration of Son of God is made not before death of the physical natural and carnal spiritual.
Thank you all for your participation. Please continue to share and contribute edification's and encouragements towards deeper recognition of the teachings we accept via Ray Smith and the understandings we have recieved of the Scriptures.
Let us reason together. Are the Scriptures presented by Darren literal for now or do they point to a future state of being wherein those chosen will experience sinlessness with Christ having shed and having destroyed once and for all, the carnal old man?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hello, all !
As I was reading all of your replies in this "Finished?" topic of discussion, these thoughts kept revolving around in my mind. Tell me what you think, OK, please? Could the word "death" be a way of saying "death to the awareness of God's Presence" in your mind and heart? And when we actually DO God's Will all the time, by obeying His Precepts, we ARE "born again", and cannot sin (coveting, stealing, lying, backtalking, slandering, etc., etc.)? Could this be what Paul in Romans 6 was referring to??
Years ago, I read in some spiritual material somewhere that "house" means "awareness" , "consciousness (of)". Hence, when that Bible Scripture says, "In My Father's house are many mansions." and "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." , we're talking about the cognitive function of the mind.
Input, anyone?
Linda
-
Hello Linda
May be it is "death" to the blindness and deafness of the Presence of God. Like "death" as being the amnesia or comatose absence of knowing of Gods being and Sovereignty. I often feel that carnality is like a amnesia to the mind body and soul awareness and knowledge of God.
We know that the carnal is at deep seated hate for God and will kill all perceptions of Him ie DEATH itself because God is LIFE. I am the way the truth and the LIFE. Carnality is death.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Can we ever be rid of our carnality this side of life. I believe we have to cross over the resurrection line to know if we are free or subject to judgment to righteousness in the LOF.
To return to my first question about Isaiah. Was he left carnal and will he be in the LOF after having been forgiven and is this why Ray points out point 4 as being the REMOVAL of sin in the four point process? I think it is? Is there some edification or correction required to focus on this conclusion anyone?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
This scripture jumped out at me.
"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).
Darren's post really hits home with me. I have 10 pages of typed scripture that relate to those Darren posted. These are the scriptures that showed me that I am the beast and there is no hope within myself. There is no free will that will save me from my condition. There is no way to save myself. Once I hit that point God started removing idols. When the idols were removed the sin that entangled me with each idol was removed. I had a multitude of idols.
2 Corinthians 10:5
5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
1 Peter 1
14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
Hebrews 10
13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Philippians 3:12
[Pressing on Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
-
Hello Darren
Thank you for your contribution. It is precisely this kind of communication that spurs me to greater precision in my thinking and deeper desire to understand Jesus Christ and the Word of God.
Your post made me return to the fact that the Image of God is not yet complete in us. If we sin no more and are delivered out of delusion, seeing partially as in a glass mirror dimly as Peggy contributed in another thread of mine, then, Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life. Okay I see the point you make about us having the deposit of the Holy Spirit of Christ that is working in some of us yet how can we be certain who is who except by the fruit and even then can we be sure because as it is written only God can see the heart.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Hi Arcturus,
Thank you so much for your comments. I am still with you okay, but you ask: "Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life"
The Spirit is leading me in this, yet I am not sure where it is I will end. (I know what John meant) :)
One would appear that the phrase "Born Again" requires several things to have occured.
1. Having been once born
2. Having died
3. Being born again.
We were all born of the flesh, this is a given; however, the remaining two points seem to be addressed by both John and Paul.
How can we die, but yet still live?
I believe Paul answers this very clearly with his following words:
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Here Paul very clearly states that "we" have died to sin. Death, this is thre requirement of the second clause. But how did we die?
Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Well Paul links this to baptism in Christ, not only in his life, but also his death.
Rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
So when Christ died and was buried, our old self died and was buried with him. But did our old self die?
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
According to Paul, our old self did die. I think Pauls next words whole the key. Our old self died, but it was raised with Christ on HIS ressurection. Paul continues on with.....
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Our Old Self was crucified with Christ, so that we should no longer be slaves to sin, the body of sin is gone. Please know that his is news to me. That the body of sin is done away with NOW. It must be, else Christ died for nothing. :(
Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.[/color][/i]
We are freed from sin and are no longer slaves to it or the law.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
I believe this answers part one of your question of how one can die, but yet still live. :)
How can we die, but yet still live?
So if our Old self died with Christ, what then was made anew?
Paul helps us gain understanding with the following:
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
There are two parts here: "Used to be slaves," can only me prior to Christs death. "You wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted." must mean after the granting of the Spirit, which followed the ressurection of Christ.
Christ was raised as a Spirit, although we cannot state the same, does not the Spirit live in us? And as such, are we not slaves to God and not to sin? (Rom 6:18)
1 John 3:2
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
John makes it very clear that he was not always a child of God. What happened? Could it be that with the deat and resuurection of Christ and the coming of the Spirit, that John fully realized that his old self was dead, and now with the Spirit his life as a child of God had begun. A new life.
I find this interesting, as I know once God began opening my eyes with his Spirit, I became a new person almost everything within me changed. I think many will relate to this.
John concludes this discussion with the following:
1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Was not a NEW life given us? (Rom 6:4)
My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Please know I am not teaching or suggesting anything, I am just sharing what has been given me. I will gladly stand corrected. Arcturus, I hope I have given sufficient Scriptural backing to satisfactorily answer your question.
Let me add also, that I believe (at least) I am still yet a babe in the truth, and have much learning and growing before any would call me mature. But praise be to God for all that he has given me.
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
-
Joe thank you for your post. It is not without merit and serves a most stabilizing reminder. Thank you.
MG your post is inspiring. Thank you.
As I see it now, Moses, Abraham, Job and Isaiah who encountered Christ did not receive the conception of Christs Spirit within them. The Spirit of Christ may have guided them, spoken to them and influenced them but was not yet IN THEM as a conception. Jesus Christ had not yet been born as the second Man and He had not died nor was yet resurrected from where His Spirit the Paraclete is the conception of His Spirit given to those chosen by God to receive His Promises.
If I look again at Ray's teaching:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen. In this process we come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil. Gen 3 : 22
Can we say that the removal of sin as identified in point number 4. of Ray's teaching is the process of judgement NOW on the House of God or at the LOF?
This Thread has helped me to better articulate what I need to know. Thank you all.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
This a very thought provoking thread.
Arcturus I really like your metaphor "Womb Wobble" Every time I examine a pregnant patient now and feel fetal movement, I am going to hear those words.
The way I understand it is that the "earnest" that we have is better than the "promise" the OT had.
Ray so rightly pointed out , gennao means both to be born into the world and to be conceived. In human reproduction this is a very complicated process as one progresses from the twinkle in the eye to the actual birth of the baby so it must be likewise in the spiritual .
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever
I agree I do not think that this speaking of today, but I believe it is future…those elect who will finally be manifested/born…who run the race and endure until the end…in these the seed indeed remains….
here are some other translations of this one verse
(1Jo 3:9 CLV) Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God." The verb tense are better here
(1Jo 3:9 KJV+) Whosoever3956 is born1080 of1537 God2316 doth not3756 commit4160 sin;266 for3754 his848 seed4690 remaineth3306 in1722 him:846 and2532 he cannot1410, 3756 sin,264 because3754 he is born1080 of1537 God.2316
I do not think these translation got it..if you look at the word cannot ( it has two word parts) it is not exatly "cannot sin" but it he is "not capapable or has the power to sin".
G1410 δύναμαι dunamai
Thayer Definition:
1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
Part of Speech: verb
I do not know if this is true for you ....but a soon as I do any thing that is out of line with the Word….I am instantly and totally cognizant of it and ready to repent.
I usually start to bang my head on the wall and then I get disgusted that I still cannot control myself and then finally I have to totally lean into our Savior Jesus Christ and readily repent. Only then am I able to regain my composure again.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
There is no “Born again” phrase in the bible but the above verse looks like it implies one. Most see the water as the earthly birth then the spiritual birth. Or does it ?. Those chosen must go through judgement while here in the flesh. Is the born of water the baptism in death that Paul talks about.
Being born is naturally tied into the other side of life, a sort of womb to tomb thing. Most christians like the concept of being born but that abhor the reality and meaning of the Cross. Paul had a lot to say about this
(1Co 15:31 KJVR) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily
Why did Paul say he had to die daily? In the flesh…sin can occur..hence the wages…death. By dying daily we offer ourselves as sacrifices too…and follow the example of Christ.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
Is 1John talking about the rebirth progession when he says
(1Jo 2:1 KJVR) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jo 2:2 KJVR) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Is he talking to the babes in Christ and the unsaved who first receive the word.
(1Jo 2:12 KJVR) I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Then he goes on to others in the audience and the order of these statements has always puzzled me.
(1Jo 2:13 KJVR) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. Are these maturing Christians, they knew Christ and have stayed the course?
I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. Are these the ones who are early in their walk
I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
(1Jo 2:14 KJVR) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
Then later John finally writes
(1 Jo 3:14 KJVR) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world
Love therefore is the litmus test of maturity,
Beloved
-
Praise! GOD Darren,
Amen! brother, wot U hav said & hav xsplained Very well az 2 da 'T' ;D ;) is so Awesum!!, & it really Opened my eyes & ears. Thank YOU FATHER, & Thank U brother 4 bein dis GOD given Vessel, if I may say, I understood d@ Wholeheartedly!!, GODBLESS!!.
Darren asks: My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
Wow!! I believe I can Honestly! answer YES!!! I have so changed! (made anew!) Bigtime! :), Considering da 39 years of my Life b4 my eyes & ears being Opened 2 Y im on dis GOD Created Earth, (Believe me, wot a turn around) I am now 42yrs old, & believe me az most of da pple of my Past dont or more really cant ;D, "I so LOVE THE LORD our GOD!", Thanks again brother..
I jus wanna give Thanks 2 U 2 Arcturus 4 dis Thread, coz thru all d@ had been said & answered, bort an Awesum! Revelation 2 me!..
Amen..
muchLOVE!! Pera
-
I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen. In this process we come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil. Gen 3 : 22
Arcturus :)
Hi Arcturus,
Can you explain a little bit what you mean by "come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil"??
do you see knowledge that comes from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as the same as "experiencing and distinguishing" between good and evil??
thanks
-
Here is a comment from Ray in today's email reply.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5691.0.html
COMMENT: No, all will be saved regardless of what they "have DONE," not according to what they are "still DOING." Sin must ultimately be repented of and taken out of the sinner through Judgment.
-
Greetings,
My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
I really feel schitzophrenic these days. I think I feel like Paul when he says in Rom.7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
I don't even know if I can say that "with the mind I myself serve the law of God" All I can say/pray is that this is just part of the process of coming to being "born again in spirit". What I do find interesting is that in vs. 21 Paul says something amazing: " with me, the one who wills to do good." This is in contrast to Romans 3:11-13 (New King James Version)
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
Footnotes:
[a] Psalms 14:1–3; 53:1–3; Ecclesiastes 7:20
Paul is stating that now, in his spirit, he is different, even though the battle rages on. In this I realize that I'm probably on the right track and just need to continue continuing on. It ain't over till this present age is over.
G.
-
Hi Gregor,
How can one not feel the frustration that surely Paul felt when he penned those words.
Rom.7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom.7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
I like the way you presented process of being "born again in the Spirit" I consider my former life as a formless lump of clay. Oh sure I think God pinched a bit here and pressed a bit there, sometimes I think he picked it up and dropped it. Somestimes I was dry and other times way to wet, but over the past 17 years I have felt God's loving hands on me, and he is molding something beautiful. I have know idea what and as a dear brother said to me, never marvel the fine china tea cup at the expense of the saucer, which is entrusted to keep the tea off the snow white linen.
This has been a great thread and I thank you all for spiritual fruits shown.
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Praise! GOD Darren,
Amen! brother, wot U hav said & hav xsplained Very well az 2 da 'T' ;D ;) is so Awesum!!, & it really Opened my eyes & ears. Thank YOU FATHER, & Thank U brother 4 bein dis GOD given Vessel, if I may say, I understood d@ Wholeheartedly!!, GODBLESS!!.
Darren asks: My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
Wow!! I believe I can Honestly! answer YES!!! I have so changed! (made anew!) Bigtime! :), Considering da 39 years of my Life b4 my eyes & ears being Opened 2 Y im on dis GOD Created Earth, (Believe me, wot a turn around) I am now 42yrs old, & believe me az most of da pple of my Past dont or more really cant ;D, "I so LOVE THE LORD our GOD!", Thanks again brother..
I jus wanna give Thanks 2 U 2 Arcturus 4 dis Thread, coz thru all d@ had been said & answered, bort an Awesum! Revelation 2 me!..
Amen..
muchLOVE!! Pera
You are more than welcome Pera. I too have changed, sometimes I cannot believe how much I used to worry about things, of how much I used to miss or simply did not have time for. The coming of the Spirit it ones life by the grace of God, is the dawning of a new life, well it certainly was for me.
May God continue to bless you and yours,
Love,
Darren
-
Greetings,
Ray teaches that there are four things that happen with sin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
I've recently been pondering "temptation" and how it fits into this process. It would seem to me that the temptation comes before the "committed" stage and if one can overcome the temptation, the act of committing would not come into play. But, some sins are not as obvious as others ie: coveting, but that is a condition of the heart, as is hatred, lusting, etc. So I've come to the conclusion that sin is committed in the heart prior to any action being taken. That is where the "committed" takes place, not in the manifestation of the sin through actions.
Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
How does this fit in with the temptation of Jesus in Matt.4? (Keep in mind the following Matt. 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”)
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
What is being tempted, the physical hunger or the faith in the word of God?
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Here again, same thing being tested, Jesus faith in what God told him. Only this time, satan must twist the scriptures as his weapon of choice.
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Here we find satan's last attempt at attacking the faith, appealing to the "Pride of life" and lust for the things of this world. We know Jesus heart is for the will of God, not the things of this world and that Jesus stands firm again in the word of God.)
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Every time Jesus faith is attacked, He responds with statements of faith. Jesus knew how to rightly divide the word of truth. I pray that this will be my response. I hope that this will help shed some light on what happens prior to the "committing" stage of sin. Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. All sin is a result of questioning (temptation or testing) the word of God and that all stems out of our hearts, not in the actions themselves. I hope this isn't preaching what I think, but that it is a revelation worth sharing.
G.
-
If we go back and review this thread I think Jer has put his finger on the pulse right in the start of the Thread. Just shows, a comment made is not unimportant even if at first it goes seemingly unnoticed. Jer reminds us of the principle of first the natural then the spiritual. If we understand His Word then we better understand and come to know HIM for He IS the Word that was made flesh and died and is resurrected right?
Quoting Ray:
Man is not a "spirit being" having a "physical" experience, but rather man is a "physical and mortal" being having a "spiritual" experience. We are first born mortal [physical], but in the resurrection God gives us immortality (the spiritual). Throw away this marvellous truth of Scripture, and you will be as deceived... http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
I believe this answers your poignant question for which I thank you Rocky.
Yes Beloved…speed wobble, womb wobble…it is all one! ;D I am not yet born again! I do not know yet that when I am born again if I will come out as the umbilical cord or the baby. I hope the baby perfected image of Jesus Christ! it is one thing to bring nourishment of the Word and it is quite another thing to BE the Baby!....Womb wobble again? I will be thinking of you thinking of me when I see a pregnant woman again. In fact I will be thinking of THIS FORUM!
MG your contribution on this tread nails it for me. Thank you for reflecting the image of Christ and His Truth. Here is what you observed for our edification and encouragement to see! I believe a baby can see in the womb right Beloved? Okay I know I know its dark ;D :D Here is what you presented
Here is comment from Ray in today's email reply. Quote:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5691.0.html
COMMENT: No, all will be saved regardless of what they "have DONE," not according to what they are "still DOING." Sin must ultimately be repented of and taken out of the sinner through Judgment.
Unquote.
This says for me that the sin has to be TAKEN OUT OF THE SINNER. For me this is in the process of being born again resulting in one of two judgements either the one NOW on the House of Gods CHOSEN or later at the White Throne. Jesus said better the one NOW not later. That makes sense for it is better to be called and obey than called and disobey. Better the few chosen than the many called.
So for me Darren until we receive a clean heart of the Lord in full, we are still in the process of womb growth into His Image.
Gregor thank you for pulling back another layer to expose some more truth. As Jesus said the even to THINK wrong is to DO wrong. So that which THINKS carnal will be removed and this is the Will of God for us all.
Jesus did not sin. He was sinless. He did not have ONE sinful thought. NOT ONE>…Makes me think again…..Makes you think doesn’t it?
Peace to womb dwellers
Arcturus. :)
-
Hello all,
Methinks if our inner Hunger is so great that we tell God intensely earnestly, "God, I want to be GOOD!! " , that starts the ball really rolling for us, spiritually. He HEARS!! :) :D And our perfection (by Him) comes near faster!! ( "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness [ = justice, according to Rotherham's Emphasized Bible ] , for they SHALL be FILLED." )
With much love! :D
Linda
-
I like the way both Arcturus and Beloved put forth what Beloved called "the rebirth progression." ;) And I liked Arcturus' statement which indicates this process.
I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen.
Although it would seem with the help of the great detective work of MG with the Ray quote edifiying, at least for me, that "part 4/sin removal" is occurring as a process now in our judgment in the here and now.... OUCH! :D ;D To be completed upon resurrection.
And thanks Beloved as I hadn't realized the Scriptures know nothing of being "born again." Three verses come up in the KJV when searching this particular word set and they are translated in the CLNT as:
Jhn 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."
Jhn 3: 7 You should not be marveling that I said to you, 'You must be begotten anew.'
1Pet 1: 23 having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,
It's a technicality but worth noting for more accurate communication on the subject.
:)
-
Darren,
My answer to your question:
My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
I am not the same person as before.
And to this question:
Let me add also, that I believe (at least) I am still yet a babe in the truth, and have much learning and growing before any would call me mature. But praise be to God for all that he has given me.
There is a vast difference in my understanding of scripture now and what I first understood. Don't know what growth category that puts me in. I am not a babe, however. The BT web site would not have interested me when I was a babe in Christ.
Has the Holy Spirit led anyone to desire knowledge about how to talk to children about the truths we now know? My leading is to ask the question only.
Shalom,
dessa
-
Interesting question Dessa.
Dessa Has the Holy Spirit led anyone to desire knowledge about how to talk to children about the truths we now know?
Alex, and I hope he is not in the Southern California fires....wrote a very insightful reminder about not having to defend the Truth with the sword by cutting of anyone's ears.
I believe we have to become His Word and Image in our daily interactions with the Word, We are called to obey and how this impacts on us is via self judgment. Through discernment of our own inner weaknesses failures and liabilities by contrast with Christs selfless strength, success and holiness, we might then be used to influence others in what we know through experience. It is however the Spirit of Christ that selects or does the choosing to touch and influence those around us or those who simply may only once cross our paths in life.
II am not talking AT you but simply sharing what I believe you already know. :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hello Dessa,
Yes as a matter of fact, My own children , As should we all teach these truths, to our children.
If anyone asks, i would tell of these truths, if it comes up in conversation then yes...But i am no teacher, and have no platform other than what is provided to me.
Peace
Chris R
-
Which is it for the Elect? Which, for the rest of humanity?
Physical birth > Spiritual Death > Physical death > Spiritual birth
Physical birth > Physical Death > Spiritual (second death) > Spiritual birth
First, the Physical, then the Spiritual?
"You must die before you are born in the Spirit" in either sequence. And, when we die to self "we are not the same person."
All in due time and order!
- jER
-
Just to follow up on my post from last night, here's Ray from LOF 16-D-4 Gehenna Fire Judgement:
REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived [Gk: gennao] in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born [Gk: gennao] in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born [Gk: gennao] again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation. But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:
"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm:
-
A valuable contribution Janice. Thank you!
Jer I believe that conception too is a process and not an eleven second sinners prayer. So if we ARE concieved by the Spirit then we will be raised into life with Christ. If we reject, refuse, grieve and resist the Holy Spirit then we will be resurrected to judgment.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi,
Has Gods plan flown out the window because of our ability to resist him? And now that i have successfully resisted Gods plan for me, does God now go on to plan B? I think not, EVERYTHING we are, and all we do, is of God.
We cannot even REPENT if God has not given us a desire to do so. WHY?
Because He hath mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will, he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:18-19
Tough love....
Peace
Chris R
-
Thank you for your post Chris R. It gives comfort to again be edified to know that God is Sovereign.
From LOF quoting Ray :
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
Does anyone have ability to resist God? NO! I do not believe that our resistance comes out of ABILITY but out of WEAKNESS and our CARNALITY and I believe we resist Him from a unconverted heart and it is as automatic to do so like a sinning machine.
From LOF part 2 Quote:
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
^
^
^
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19). http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Greetings,
In light of what's just been posted, could someone shed light on these two verses?
Heb.6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Heb.10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Strongs: willfully 1596 hekousiōs, 1) voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord
a) to sin wilfully as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness
-
Hello G.
"..if they fall away..." That is key. If we fall away or remain faithfull is in God's plan. Some may come to the Babylonian System, hear the word of God, get it and then decide that the fellowship and camaraderie of the social system is worth more than taking up the cross to follow Christ OUT OF HER! Just a thought...There after is the second death LOF.
..."if we sin WILLFULLY..." For me that points to the willfully rebellious nature of the carnal man who is at deep seated enmity and hate for God. That sounds pretty willful to me! :)
This calls to mind the parable of the seed sown on the wayside, shallow or thorny ground.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:1-8
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ....I see something in this that speaks to those who are not "growing up" in Christ. They have "tasted the heavenly gift" including universalism which I believe is represented in "eternal judgment" (judgment in an age when all will learn righteousness Isa 26:9). There is so much more to growing and being pruned in this age than just knowing that God is going to save everybody. I am learning myself about the unfathomable depths and layers that seemingly is overwhelming. But if we simply stay where we are at and do not keep going in truth, than we are resting in comfortable carnality and not taking up our spiritual cross. The truth is not easy, though it brings freedom.
I think it may be that this verse is saying that "it is impossible to restore them again to repentance" in this age. Repentance means to change your ways and mind. If you have fallen away, you have stopped changing your ways and mind and your destiny is to continue this process later in the lake of fire. In other words, God has seen fit that your purpose to grow later, serves something greater in the grand scheme. It must, otherwise why would God "cause" such" a condition in someone.
If we, through Christ, produce crops that (notice) are "useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated", than those works are blessed. The Elect bringing the rest of the world to salvation. The Elect's crop is for the rest of humanity, just as The Elect is the crop/planting for and of the Lord. Producing a good crop is not for yourself but for the benefit of others.
The thorns and thistles are works by the called but not chosen, fit for destruction. (Eg. How to Gain Financial Freedom in the Lord in Seven Steps, How to Prosper and Receive Physical Blessings in this Life...yada yada yada) People who focus on teaching these kinds of things have no idea that they are "crucifying once again the Son of God", so why on earth would they even think to repent?? Yet these are the very people who think they are God's chosen.
I do not think that having the truth about the elementary (basic) doctrines of Christ:
1. repentance from dead works
2. faith
3. instructions on washings (cleaning the inside of the cup)
4. laying on of hands (receiving the holy spirit)
5. resurrection of the dead (putting on immortality)
6. eternal judgment (all the world learning righteousness)
is any kind of assurance that you are of the Chosen and will "endure to the end".
You have not yet struggled and fought agonizingly against sin, nor have you yet resisted and withstood to the point of pouring out your [own] blood.
Hebrews 12:4
I think this is another warning to those who think they are the "Elect" like many Christians do, especially those who have "come out" of the Church who have been given grand truths:
Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands, who feels sure that he has a steadfast mind and is standing firm, take heed lest he fall into sin.
1 Corinthians 10:12
If we, as a Christian, feel secure in thinking that we are Chosen, we are in a dangerous condition to become complacent and arrogant...Didn't the Pharisees think they were the Chosen Seed? I'm not saying we can't be confident in reaching for the prize, but really it's a fine line, which is why our salvation is worked out with fear and trembling.
So I see the many called as being stagnant or at the very least still on milk, focusing still on carnal needs, and the few chosen (Elect) are ever growing and being disciplined in the Lord.
If the many called are stagnant, it is because the Lord is not dealing with them in this age. He is not yet bringing them through their spiritual purposeful suffering required for perfection. They are still back there with the masses, crucifying the Lord "to their own harm"....(their own harm will be the second death which does NOT harm the Elect who produce the right crop....)
Anyways, that's how I'm seeing it.
By the way, wonderful, beautiful thread everyone!
Peace,
Diana
-
Hello Diana
Thank you for the contribution and participation to the spirit of this thread. Here is what stood out for me from your post. Quote " ......think it may be that this verse is saying that "it is impossible to restore them again to repentance" in this age. Repentance means to change your ways and mind. If you have fallen away, you have stopped changing your ways and mind and your destiny is to continue this process later in the lake of fire. In other words, God has seen fit that your purpose to grow later, serves something greater in the grand scheme. It must, otherwise why would God "cause" such" a condition in someone.
^
^
... the many called are stagnant, it is because the Lord is not dealing with them in this age. He is not yet bringing them through their spiritual purposeful suffering required for perfection. They are still back there with the masses, crucifying the Lord "to their own harm"....(their own harm will be the second death which does NOT harm the Elect who produce the right crop....)
I believe the reason why we must COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE. Do NOT take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her. Rev 18 : 4 fits perfectly with what you have articulated Diana. Thank you.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Arcturus,
I was just reading Genesis and came across something that reminded of the post I wrote earlier...it is these verses that jumped out at me:
And to Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it! The ground is cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life. It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles to you, and you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:17-18
Now read again the passage in Hebrews:
For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
Heb 6:7-8
Remember the teaching from Ray that the earth represents "the called" in that they are slightly raised out of the "sea of humanity" but have not yet reached heaven. Even the highest peak on this planet (Mount Everest?) cannot be said to reach into the heavens. This is a parable of the church condition...those who call themselves God's people. The many called, but not the few chosen.
The word "land" in Hebrews is translated by the KJV as earth and in fact carries the meaning of soil, ground, land, earth.
The word "ground" in Genesis is the Hebrew word "adamah" also meaning soil, earth, ground, land.
Notice in Genesis it is the adamah/earth that God curses and not adam/mankind.
The earth was cursed from the beginning in that it would only ever produce "thorns and thistles" fit to be burned. Now whether one sees this as Babylon, the church system, or the carnal nature...it all fits in harmony because it all comes from the same source.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:10
This further substantiates the need to "come out of her my people" as you've pointed out Arcturus. Come out of carnality!
It does seem to me that the "earth" could also point to the carnal nature/flesh of dust body that will need to be destroyed before we can put on the spiritual body. Again, the "adamah"....the soil, the dust, the flesh is cursed...but not "adam" the man himself. The works of the flesh are thorns and thistles and shall be burned up though the man himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Whatever Babylon is, the "earth" and its thorns and thistles are surely part of it. whatever the flesh produces results in deceit, lies etc etc etc whether in religion or the world. Carnality has got to go!
Let us pray that God will call us out completely that we should not partake of her plagues. Let us continue to strive forward, reaching for that high calling, past the mountain peaks to the very realm of the kingdom of heaven. This is my prayer for my family of brothers and sisters here at the forum, and elsewhere scattered throughout the world.
Yet even so, our minds, our "heavens" are also destined to be cleansed with fire and I pray that we should welcome it and not resist the coming of the Lord.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation...
2Pe 3:11-15
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves (that's us, our inner hearts/minds) were purified with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:22-23
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:4
So back to your question in your first post Arcturus:
Are there some things that happen with forgiveness?
no blood = no remission
G859 remission: (release from bondage or imprisonment, forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed)
Jesus is the way. He has set the pattern: without shedding of blood there is no remission. It seems somehow, we must spiritually shed our own blood before the heavens of our minds are cleansed of all impurities and all sin is removed....burned and melted away to make way for the new heavens (cleansed minds) and new earth (new vessel, incorruptible spiritual bodies).
Peace,
Diana
-
Hello Diana
It is I believe the spirit of the Forum wherein sometimes some threads resonate and mirror others. In this instance your latest post for me, reflects what is in the "Our Father" thread in the Testimony section of the Forum. You might see what I mean if you take a look.
Regarding what you observe quote :
Heb 9:22-23 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Do you think it is a prerequisite that we shed our blood in order to have remission? Is it our blood or the already shed blood of the offering for our sin, our bad blood, evil ways and carnality, that is the offering for our sin. Do you think we have to shed our blood not in a literal way but in the symbolic way of shedding our genetic lineage with the first Adam and being through the Second Adam Jesus Christ, made one with HIM? I think so. This is surely what judgment is all about. Our death to self. HIS blood has been shed for us. We now have to shed our bad blood too in repentance and conformation to His Image. Of course non of this can be achieved by man but with God. For with God all things are possible.
This carnality tail goes way back into allegiance with error, traditions and sins to deception. Only by His Spirit can we be free.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Diana and Arcturus,
Truly the corruptible must give way to the incorruptible; a new creation.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed (rendered inoperative), that henceforth, we should not serve (be slaves of) SIN."
"Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
A friend in Christ
- jER
-
Hi Arcturus,
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Do you think it is a prerequisite that we shed our blood in order to have remission? Is it our blood or the already shed blood of the offering for our sin, our bad blood, evil ways and carnality, that is the offering for our sin. Do you think we have to shed our blood not in a literal way but in the symbolic way of shedding our genetic lineage with the first Adam and being through the Second Adam Jesus Christ, made one with HIM? I think so. This is surely what judgment is all about. Our death to self. HIS blood has been shed for us. We now have to shed our bad blood too in repentance and conformation to His Image. Of course non of this can be achieved by man but with God. For with God all things are possible.
Yes, I agree with you. The shedding of blood is a type of something spiritual that needs to happen in us. I do think that Jesus living His life through the Elect means that everything He went through the Elect also must go through. As He was made perfect through suffering, so will the Elect, and eventually all mankind be made perfect through suffering. The Elect are hated and persecuted by men. They are crucified with Christ that they may be raised with him. As He is, so are the Elect in the world.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves were purified with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:22-23
Notice that this is all in the plural form...the patterns in the heavens but the heavenly things purified with better sacrifices.....
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me (the Elect) will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12
Peace to you,
Diana
-
Thank you for the insight Diana.
Just a personal thought. I believe that Babylon thinks it is doing "the greater works" now. The stage shows, the healings and the professed miracles. I believe the Biblical "greater works" do not belong to Babylon but are the reward reserved for the elect who will rule with Christ after He returns in judgment to righteousness. Then the spiritually blind will see and the conversion of carnality to spirituality through repentace will be culminating in all knees bowing to the Lordship of Christ. That for me is the greater work not the carnal works of Babylon.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me (the Elect) will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12
Peace to you,
Diana
Hi Diana,
Wow, I had almost forgotten these profound words; who would even dare suggest that they are capable of doing the works of Christ our Saviour, let alone, "works" far greater than his.
Yet there is even more to this than the obvious. Christ did not say he who believes in me will have knowledge greater than I. Actually, what He said ties in 100% with the words of James.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
So what did Christ do, that will be done BETTER by the Elect?
Humility - Philippians 2:5-8 describes the extent of Jesus' humility: "Our attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!"
Service - Matthew 20:28 says, "…The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Jesus is the ultimate example of a man who desired to serve others. He did tasks that were generally left to the servants, like washing feet. John 13:5 describes an event where Jesus served His disciples: "After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him."
Glorify God - Jesus said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you." Jesus came to earth to glorify His Father. Everything we do should be done to glorify the Father: 1 Corinthians 10:31 says, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."
Prayer - What a prayer life Jesus experienced! He was in constant communion with His Father and often got up early in the morning to talk with God. Mark 1:35 says, "Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed."
Sacrifice - Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice! He gave His life so that all will be saved. He provided His life - the ultimate sacrifice of His life - as a free gift to all who will believe! 1 John 2:2 says, "He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Are we not expected to do the same? Giving up something for God, a friend, or a complete stranger. God wants your sacrifice. Romans 12:1 says, "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship."
All of this is about doing, living, helping, being.....These final words of James really hit home to me.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
This has beena wonderful thread, thanks to you all. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Thank you for the insight Diana.
Just a personal thought. I believe that Babylon thinks it is doing "the greater works" now. The stage shows, the healings and the professed miracles. I believe the Biblical "greater works" do not belong to Babylon but are the reward reserved for the elect who will rule with Christ after He returns in judgment to righteousness. Then the spiritually blind will see and the conversion of carnality to spirituality through repentace will be culminating in all knees bowing to the Lordship of Christ. That for me is the greater work not the carnal works of Babylon.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Hi Arcturus,
I do not disagree with you on this either, for who in this life could do more than Christ? Yet, I still believe that doing is important. :)
Love,
Darren
-
Darren,
No question at all, "We must walk, the talk."
- jER
-
Beautiful reflections on the way and nature of Christ Darren. God is doing a wondrous work to conform us into the perfect image of His precious Son Jesus Christ. We can look at Him and know what we are being made to be like through the Grace of the Spirit of God.
Here is an excerpt from the study called :
Saved By Grace Thru Faith [By Divine influence upon our HEARTS]
So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10)
“Yet not I” what? He said I labored, you know what that means, work. I’ve ‘worked’ harder than all of them, yet it wasn’t I that works, right. Notice it wasn’t I that was doing the work, but the grace of God which was with me. The grace of God, what? These things are all understood, notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all labored: yet not I labored, but the grace of God labored. That’s what it’s saying, can you see that? So what is the grace of God doing in Paul’s heart? It LABORS, it works.
It’s not some ‘thing’ like, ‘well I have the grace of God, that save me.’ They take that word and just tack it on the wall, ‘grace’ there it is, I got it, God said I got to have it and there it is ‘grace.’ It can’t be in a book, it can’t be on the wall, it’s got to be IN YOUR HEART. What does it do there? IT LABORS - IT WORKS. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Yes, beautiful post Darren!
To build on what you have said Darren and what Arcturus has shown, I just want to add that I surely do not think that any of us are capable of doing works greater than Jesus Christ WITHOUT the power that comes from the spirit of God and Christ:
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, BECAUSE I am going to the Father.
John 14:12
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, HE will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
John 16:7-8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Acts 1:8
Peace,
Diana