bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lareli on June 23, 2014, 01:46:46 PM
-
I know that God doesn't change His mind.
How is Exodus 32:14 supposed to be accurately understood?
Exodus 32:14
14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
This is from the nasb and I see that the kjv says 'the Lord repented' instead of saying 'changed His mind' but Numbers 23:19 says God doesn't repent..
Also I know God doesn't lie. But when someone says they're gonna do something and then they don't do it... Don't we consider that a lie?
-
Friend Largeli,
Mercy always trumps deserved punishment.
No it is not a lie when God "repents" of carrying out the penalty that we earned. Especially if it is given as a promise rather than a threat.
I tried to never threaten my four kids during their younger years, but I'm sure that my correction came across as threatening many times. Of course I'm not even close to God's perfect love in my parenting.
Also, even in Strong's concordance of the KJV there will be found many alternative definitions of Hebrew and Greek words. So we usually should dig deeper when we come across a scripture that mystifies us.
Thanks for the question. Indiana Bob
-
Here is where Ray discusses Exodus 32:14. There are many other emails and articles where the same subject is discussed. As always, study time and thinking over the Scriptures is necessary as guided by the Spirit of God.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2124.0.html
-
JFK thanks for the link. The answer in that link is understood.. That God told Moses what Moses needed to hear in order for Moses to respond how God wanted Moses to respond.. I can see this pattern repeated throughout scripture.. But what, then, constitutes a lie? If I say I'm going to do something and then I don't do it, wouldn't it be considered a lie?
Thanks for the replies, both of you.
-
JFK thanks for the link. The answer in that link is understood.. That God told Moses what Moses needed to hear in order for Moses to respond how God wanted Moses to respond.. I can see this pattern repeated throughout scripture.. But what, then, constitutes a lie? If I say I'm going to do something and then I don't do it, wouldn't it be considered a lie?
Thanks for the replies, both of you.
Two basic paramount truths from the Scriptures are: 1) God does not lie and 2) God's Word does not lie.
There is no need for Him to. Who can stop Him when He decides to do something?
Consider Sodom and the cities of the Jordan plain. God destroyed them without fanfare after Abraham's relatives left. Wham--Bam--All Gone. No talking needed.
He could have destroyed Israel in like manner. But God was pulling Moses' chain to get a response.
One thing learned from Ray was to read all the words---carefully. Notice in Exodus 32:10 ...that I may consume them... God didn't say He would consume them, but may consume them. May or may not. Indefinite.
-
HE didn't. :)
-
HE didn't. :)
So well put
Rhys
-
I know God doesn't change His mind. I know He doesn't lie so I figured that I was missing something in these verses. John you're right, I wasn't paying close enough attention to the words.
Micah7:9 I hear ya.. Goes deeper than I thought.
Thanks guys.
-
Did God deceive Moses by suggesting that He was going to do something that He wasn't going to do?
If a human did exactly what God did in this instance wouldn't we call that deception?
-
Did God deceive Moses by suggesting that He was going to do something that He wasn't going to do?
If a human did exactly what God did in this instance wouldn't we call that deception?
Thanks largeli for the heads up! If God fooled Moses, then that means He can deceive me.
Well, I'm done. No more studying the Scriptures for me. God isn't going to fool me anymore.
Babylon, here I come. It's Friday night this evening. I'm going bar hopping.
Hello Ladies, your dreams have come true, JFK is on the way. :-*
-
I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or humorous... Either way I don't understand your post.
-
I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or humorous... Either way I don't understand your post.
I know.
-
What's the point of replying to my question if you know I don't understand you?
Quit playin with my emotions John.. Playin with my emotions is like playin with my money.
-
John I think you're just too wise and too advanced for an imbecile (had to look that one up) like me. I'm just a 'dope head' who listens to rap music so feel free not to waste your time.
So if there's anyone else who would care to help a brother out.. does God deceive? Was He deceiving Moses? I know the bible says God can't lie and God doesn't tempt.. But does it ever say God can't or doesn't deceive?
I read an email where Ray gave examples of God deceiving folks. It blew my mind to read that and I'm not sure how to accept this yet.
Please don't use too big of words or riddles in your reply. My simple mind might explode.
-
Hi largely,
Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
Whatever God does is just and right and good, His ways are not the same as our ways. What God may do in order to bring about certain thing is always done to order to achieve a purpose and is never done for a malicious reason. At all times God knows what the end of any situation will actually be (Isa 46:10 ), He is not making His plan up as He goes along.
Here is an email that Ray discusses (in blue) how after king Hezekiah's prayer God decided to extend his life 15 more years than what He said it would be. Did God changes His mind about what He had already said or was this the intended outcome all along?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10718.0 ---
Subject: Can prayer change God's mind?
How would you interpret this passage?
It seems here that Hezekiah's prayer
changed God's mind on the matter of his time of death
COMMENT: It may "seem" that way to you, but I assure you God did not
"change" His mind, seeing that [1] He always knows the end from the beginning,
and [2] God doesn't "change" (Mal. 3:6, Isa. 46:10, Rom. 4:3 etc.).
During his extended life,
which appeared to not be God's original will,
COMMENT: On what fact are you basing your assumption? Do you know what
God's "original" will was? Was it God's "original will" that Hezekiah die 15 years sooner
than he actually did? So did God "change" His mind and contradict Mal. 3:6? Was God
unable to "declare Hezekiah's true end of life from the beginning? So did God contradict
His declaration in Isa. 46:10)? Was God unable to "call" the correct date of Hezekiah's
death before he died and before He told Hezekiah that He would extend His life? Did
God contradict His statement in Isa. 46:10. Surely not.
Hezekiah fathered one of the most evil kings
to come to Israel's history, Menashe
COMMENT: Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with whether God changes His
mind or not.
Perhaps the Lord will give you what you ask for
even when he clearly states it is not what he planned...
COMMENT: Again, you are presuming something that is not Scriptural. Nowhere does
it say that God didn't intend "from the beginning" to extend Hezekiah's life beyond what
Hezekiah thought would be the end of his life.
After all, cannot God change his will if he wants to?
COMMENT: But He doesn't "want to change" His will. His plans, purpose, intentions,
and will are perfect and never need adjusting or fine-tuning.
Isaiah 38:1-5
In those days
Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death
The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said,
"This is what the LORD says:
Put your house in order,
because you are going to die; you will not recover
Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,
Remember, O LORD,
how I have walked before you faithfully
and with wholehearted devotion and have done
what is good in your eyes"
And Hezekiah wept bitterly
Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah:
Go and tell Hezekiah,
'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says:
I have heard your prayer and seen your tears;
I will add fifteen years to your life'
COMMENT: Were in all these statement does it say that God did not
know what He was going to do in Hezekiah's life BEFORE He extended
his life, or BEFORE Hezekiah was even born? It was from Hezekiah's
perspective that his life was extended 15 years. From God's perspective
He always knew exactly how long Hezekiah would live, and when Hezekiah
would die. The Scriptures do not contradict.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Also in Luke 24 Christ appeared (after His resurrection) to 2 of His disciples and they were caused not to know Him and there is an interesting point that Ray brings out in this little episode.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.msg61399.html#msg61399 ---
Okay this in Luke is where after the resurrection and these two men that were disciples of Christ were going to Emmaus. Because they thought the jig was up and somebody had stole His body or something.
So Christ comes along and says ‘why are you so downcast?’ They said ‘haven’t you heard?’ He said, ‘heard what?’ They said, ‘we believe that this guy was the Messiah and they killed Him and besides all that today is the third day and the jig is up, it all over.’ So then He says to them;
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
v. 28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and He (Jesus) made as though He would have gone further.
v. 29 But they constrained Him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And He went in to tarry with them.
Of course they wanted to learn more about the Scriptures too and they thought this guy is amazing. But did you catch that? “He made as though He would have gone further.” Did Jesus Christ intend on going further that night? No. Did He pretend that He was going to keep going on down the road? Yes. Is that a little deceitful? Yes. Was it a good thing? Yes.
They said, ‘Where are you going?’ He said, ‘On down the road here.’ And they, ‘no no it’s late, come on in with us and we will get something to eat and chew the rag for a while,’ and so on. And He said, ‘Oh, okay.’ He knew that they would say that. He had got them so excided about the Scriptures, He knew they weren’t just going to say, ‘Oh okay good bye, see ya, that was interesting.’ They wanted more and He knew that. But He wanted them to desire and say, ‘no no we want to hear more come on in.’ So He pretended, He made like He was going further.
---------------------------------------------------------
So we know that there are some instances in the Scripture where God does seem to do differently than He first said, but did God miscalculation what He intended at first or was it actually intended to happen as it did as Ray shows?
In Exodus 32 God decided not to wipe out the nation of Israel. What I can see may be going on is that God needed to make Moses understand how he (Moses) truly felt about the Israelites. In order to make Moses realize how deeply he cared about them, God purposed that He take them away by wiping them out. Was this something God was debating on doing or just helping Moses see how much he (Moses) loved them, so he would be willing to do all he had to go through to help them. God may have been just using a little reverse phycology there it seems to help Moses understand.
Hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Ya Kat that is helpful. I understand what you've posted. I think it is true to say that God can and does deceive.
It's in the scriptures. It's just difficult to admit even though it's right there. Whether the outcome is good or not it still feels blasphemous to say God deceives or God is a deceiver. But it's true isn't it?
He doesn't lie. He doesn't tempt. He doesn't change His mind. He doesn't sin.
He does deceive. He does manipulate. I feel like I'm blaspheming just by writing this.
-
Here's the email where Ray talks about God deceiving...
Deceive
« on: November 18, 2006, 03:44:09 PM »
In Part C of "The Myth of Free Will" did you mean to say, "Just how does God deceive mankind into thinking that their thoughts and choices free and uncaused?"
I thought you were proving that Satan is the deceiver, not God. I hope this was an error. I cannot conceive of God being a deceiver.
Betty
Dear Betty:
I really hate to answer questions such as this, because one is d......ed if he does and d.......ed if he doesn't tell the truth.
God uses messengers and His Own circumcstances to bring about deceit. Yes, the serpent "deceived" Eve, as we are clearly told that in the Scriptures. However, Who created the serpent? God. Who gave him access to the Garden? God. Who commissioned him to deceive Eve? God. Who created Eve in such way that she "thought" she had freedom of the will? God. Who commissioned "lying spirits" on several occasions to "deceive" the enemy? God. Who is it that send "strong DELUSION"? "Even him, whose comingis after theworkings of Satan with all power and sings and LYING [deceiving] wonders....And for THIS cause G-O-D SHALL SEND THEM strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" (ii tHES. 2:9 & 11).
And did not our Own Lord make the two disciples traveling to Emmaus think that He was going to continue walking on down the road when they wanted to turn in for the night, when in reality Jesus had not such intention, but wanted them to INSIST that He go with them (Luke 24:28). Etc.
But please don't tell people that "Ray said that GOD IS A DECEIVER," unless you explain it in the context in which I have explained it to you. Just for you own comfort of faith, when God did deceive or cause to be deceived in the Scriptures, HE TELLS US!
God be with you,
Ray
-
So does this mean it is not a sin to deceive someone as long as it's for their good?
-
So does this mean it is not a sin to deceive someone as long as it's for their good?
God kills and makes alive again. Is it a sin for you to kill? But suppose you DO kill...can you make alive again? There are many things that God is "allowed" to do that we are not. Of course, that doesn't keep many from trying.
Do you know what is "for their own good"?
Is it a sin to deceive little children about heaven and hell "for their own good"?
Well...whatever deceptions are in the world, WE are told over and over DO NOT BE DECEIVED. There is a grand purpose for "deception", and that is in no small part to be delivered from it.
That's what happened to Hezekiah. That's what happened to the two waking with Jesus on the way.
Please note that I put "allowed" in quotation marks. In truth, God requires NO PERMISSION from His creation to do with it as He sees fit. He is worthy to be praised, because after all He subjects us to, HE HIMSELF rescues us in ways both small and large once His purpose has come to pass.
-
Dave
So Gods ways are, 'do as I say, not as I do' and 'the end justifies the means'.
Is this accurate?
-
Largeli, feel free to deceive if it pleases you. :D
Only if you're going to "do as he does", then be prepared also to "be as He is".
-
An open question:
Why is there deception coming from the churches and in the churches? Is this another of God's miserable failures?
-
So does this mean it is not a sin to deceive someone as long as it's for their good?
If you were God, if you knew the beginning from the end and if you did it with absolute foreknowledge and had a heart with no sin nature then the answer would be yes. That reminds me of a rather common argument along those lines and the scripture accurately reflects it.
I won't post it here but you'll find this argument being made in Romans chapter 9 if you wish to read about it.
I heard Ray say it before that 'God does not lie....but sometimes he uses those that do!' But it's all for a grand purpose and will work out in the end.
-
Largeli, feel free to deceive if it pleases you. :D
Only if you're going to "do as he does", then be prepared also to "be as He is".
I'm not asking permission to deceive or to kill. I'm just trying to learn more about God and His ways.
-
God causes (directly and/or indirectly) people to believe things that are not true. He does so for His purpose(s) and for a season...not forever.
But that is not the only tool in His box, any more than Satan is the only tool in His box. We are His workmanship and still under construction.
-
An open question:
Why is there deception coming from the churches and in the churches? Is this another of God's miserable failures?
To answer your first question, the deception coming from the church is but a small piece of the overall deception that we are all born into. We are born into a world of lies and it makes no difference if one ever goes to a church or not, they will still be held accountable for the many lies they have chosen to believe.
Just because one is freed from the eternal hell and free will deception doesn't mean that person is no longer deceived by the world. All the deception is here to separate those who love truth from those who have received not a love of truth and so God sends a delusion that they should believe a lie. That 'lie' that God sends is not limited to the deception coming from the church.
To answer your second question..
"Is this another of Gods miserable failures?"
Who ever said God is a failure? Have I said that?
-
It was an open question...not directed at you specifically.
-
we are indeed born into all this deception and the only way possible for one to know this is if God removes the Vail from our eyes.
It's good to see God's truth in our life but also difficult at the same time because of our preconceive ideas of who God is and what God is doing.
It's difficult to understand a perfect God from an imperfect mind guess that's why scripture says to have the mind of Christ.
-
Rick
Is it possible for our finite minds to fully comprehend an infinite God? Even with the mind of Christ?
-
It was an open question...not directed at you specifically.
My bad Dave.
-
we are indeed born into all this deception and the only way possible for one to know this is if God removes the Vail from our eyes.
It's good to see God's truth in our life but also difficult at the same time because of our preconceive ideas of who God is and what God is doing.
It's difficult to understand a perfect God from an imperfect mind guess that's why scripture says to have the mind of Christ.
Let me add this to your list Rick!
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known
-
Largeli, I don’t know the answer to your question. I know Christ is the express image of God. Jesus did say that only the Father knows when He, Jesus will return indicating that Jesus does not know all that the Father knows.
I personally don’t believe that any of God’s creation will be equal in knowledge with God, how is it possible to fully comprehend the wisdom and understanding of God? Who can search the depth of God ?
Without the mind of Christ how can one even start to comprehend God ? I don’t believe one just receives the mind of Christ either, it’s a process. As God inspires us to study and as we learn we start to put on or receive the mind of Christ. :)
-
Hi Alex,
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
That scripture is referring to the relationship of knowledge between Christ and the believers but not of God the Father.
If I’m allowed by God to understand all the truths here at B.T. , that would be something else for me as I remember where I come from although I’m still at the bottom and deem myself the least of all God’s creation.
I’m waiting for my redemption to come when I will be perfect even as God is perfect an sin becomes a thing of the past. :)
-
Hi Alex,
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
That scripture is referring to the relationship of knowledge between Christ and the believers but not of God the Father.
If I’m allowed by God to understand all the truths here at B.T. , that would be something else for me as I remember where I come from although I’m still at the bottom and deem myself the least of all God’s creation.
I’m waiting for my redemption to come when I will be perfect even as God is perfect an sin becomes a thing of the past. :)
I and Father are one. John 10:30 (Note, Jesus refers to Himself first.)
As a human, Jesus did not possess all knowledge. But after His resurrection, Jesus said He had all power in heaven and earth.
-
John, what knowledge do you think Christ Jesus did not have? I do not even understand that way of thinking.
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
He was God even while He was in the flesh on earth and certainly retained the knowledge of God... He knew He was the great I AM (John 8:58).
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
He declared He was "the truth"... what knowledge is lacking in The Truth?
Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father...
Christ made this statement well before His crucifixion, He always retained His knowledge and His power in the flesh, He did work many miracles. Even as a 12 year old boy He stunned the teachers in the Temple with His knowledge (Luke 2). He never lost His memory and retained His mind as God. But after His resurrection He did state "all authority" was given Him.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
He obtained all authority by His sacrifice "the blood of sprinkling" to become the Mediator and High Priest.
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Heb 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
v. 18 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
John, what knowledge do you think Christ Jesus did not have? I do not even understand that way of thinking.
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
He was God even while He was in the flesh on earth and certainly retained the knowledge of God... He knew He was the great I AM (John 8:58).
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
He declared He was "the truth"... what knowledge is lacking in The Truth?
Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father...
Christ made this statement well before His crucifixion, He always retained His knowledge and His power in the flesh, He did work many miracles and even as a 12 year old boy He stunned the teachers in the Temple with His knowledge (Luke 2). But after His resurrection He did state "all authority" was given Him.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
He obtained all authority by His sacrifice "the blood of sprinkling" to become the Mediator and High Priest.
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Heb 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
v. 18 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi kat,
Greetings!
Can you please enlighten us more for the benefit of us who know little, on this verse that not all the Son knows.
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. Mat 24:36
-
Hi santgem,
That Scripture is speaking of the future plan of God, certainly Christ knows the plan of God for this world. This whole creation is of the Father's design and His determination, Christ does not set the dates of things, the Father does.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
Acts 1:7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
This should clearly prove one thing, that Christ is not the Father. But to equate His not knowing that date to not having 'all' knowledge is really absurd. I believe wanting to know this date is a carnal desire, and Christ would have known that people would want to know this of Him, He had no need to know it's exact timing, nor reveal it, therefore He would not lie when they ask Him of it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Yes Kat.
-
As a human, Jesus did not possess all knowledge. But after His resurrection, Jesus said He had all power in heaven and earth.
John, what knowledge do you think Christ Jesus did not have? I do not even understand that way of thinking.
Kat
In harmony with what Kathy is saying, Jesus Christ is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and the scriptures bare out that He knew where He came from and where was going back to when He was in the flesh.
John 8:14 – “Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.” (ESV)
John 13:3 – “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God" (ESV)
Here is a comment Ray made at his last bible study in March of 2011. He was replying to comments about Jesus "emptying" himself to come in the flesh. (Rays comments in blue)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html
March 2011 Bible study – Is Jesus God
"See I don’t think He emptied Himself of everything that was all knowledge, everything. I don’t think so. [Comment: Maybe He emptied Himself of something.] Yes He did, of course He did. He emptied Himself of some prior glory that He had."
-
This thread is blowing me away, Im starting to see things I had not understood before. I know Jesus is a created being but at the same time He is also God to me because everything that was made was made by Jesus.
I always thought Jesus was inferior to God the Father because God the Father always existed whereas Christ was created.
I’m starting to see that the entire bible is about Jesus, is it right to say that it was Jesus who spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Or was it a messenger sent from God who was speaking ? Was it Jesus who said ( I am that I am ) or was it a messenger from God ?
Would it be right to say that God the Father and Jesus are totally equal in knowledge and power ? :-\
-
Father is supreme, being greater than everything, including Jesus.
Joh_14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Greater = G3187 = (interesting can also refer to age) ??
Peace
-
This thread is blowing me away, Im starting to see things I had not understood before. I know Jesus is a created being but at the same time He is also God to me because everything that was made was made by Jesus.
I always thought Jesus was inferior to God the Father because God the Father always existed whereas Christ was created.
I’m starting to see that the entire bible is about Jesus, is it right to say that it was Jesus who spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Or was it a messenger sent from God who was speaking ? Was it Jesus who said ( I am that I am ) or was it a messenger from God ?
Would it be right to say that God the Father and Jesus are totally equal in knowledge and power ? :-\
Exo 3:2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
v. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
v. 4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
Rick, when you read this passage down in verse 4 you can see that it was indeed God, the Son who spoke to Moses from the bush.
Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
Here is plainly states again that it was the Son who spoke to Moses. Now He spoke and appeared, in human form (accept the one time He showed Moses His glorious backside in the cleft of the rock) quite a few times in the OT. He is the Spokesman/Voice for the Father.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
The Son is what the Father brought forth 'of Himself' to be over this creation. I think it's like the Father just produced/created more of Himself, in the Being of the Son (with form and voice), to use as God of this creation. They are one (not separate), but the Son is the part of the Father that does the work in this world.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
Christ said you can not see or hear the Father, so He made the Son to be His Spokesman and the image of Himself.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
v. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
The Son was equal to the Father in that He is God and the very essence of the Father.
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
But He is not the Father and clearly states the Father was greater.
John 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
John 13:16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
Jesus was not equal in the sense that there is 2 distinct Gods. No, they are one as in completely united in every way, singleness of heart. But the Son was brought forth by the Father, and His purpose is to do the will of His Father for this creation.
John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.
The Father first brought forth the Son and then "through Him" created this universe/world "for Him" and put Him to be God and ruler over it. All for the Son, but by the will and power of the Father.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Acts 9 is a record of Saul/Paul's awesome experience with the Lord God that he thought he was already serving correctly.
Joel
-
Jesus did not have all knowledge when He was a human.
Before He was a human Jesus had all power in heaven and earth. After His Resurrection Jesus had all power in heaven and earth. But, when He was a human, Jesus did not have all power or all knowledge.
How do I know this? Because I believe the Scriptures and do not ignore Scriptures that do not agree with a personal opinion.
In Philippians 2:7, we learn that Jesus emptied Himself from His attributes of God and became flesh.
In Mark 13:32, we learn that Jesus did not know when the end of this age would be. Now that isn't just a little lack of knowledge, that is a huge lack. The next most important event in history is the return of the Great King and Anointed One, the 1st Resurrection of the Elect, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on the earth.
Jesus lacked the knowledge of when that event would occur. However, those who do not believe the Scriptures ignore or explain that Scripture away.
A second witness is Mark 5:30-32. Jesus did not know who touched Him. He perceived that the power of the Spirit went through Him, but He did not know who touched Him. So He again lacked knowledge. Those who do not believe the Scriptures will of course ignore or explain this Scripture away.
There is other scriptural proof, but those who ignore the two witnesses will not accept other scriptures that disagree with their personal opinion.
Jesus had no godly power as a Human. Jesus said that He of His own self could do nothing. That it was the Father in Him that did the works. Thus Jesus did not Himself perform any of the miracles He did.
We all need to guard against thinking our personal opinions are true, even if others make us think we are correct.
We must have at least two Scriptures in support of the Truth and no other scriptures can contradict a Truth. Scriptures trump personal opinions.
...But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. Isa 66:2
-
Jesus did not have all knowledge when He was a human.
Before He was a human Jesus had all power in heaven and earth. After His Resurrection Jesus had all power in heaven and earth. But, when He was a human, Jesus did not have all power or all knowledge.
How do I know this? Because I believe the Scriptures and do not ignore Scriptures that do not agree with a personal opinion.
In Philippians 2:7, we learn that Jesus emptied Himself from His attributes of God and became flesh.
In Mark 13:32, we learn that Jesus did not know when the end of this age would be. Now that isn't just a little lack of knowledge, that is a huge lack. The next most important event in history is the return of the Great King and Anointed One, the 1st Resurrection of the Elect, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on the earth.
Jesus lacked the knowledge of when that event would occur. However, those who do not believe the Scriptures ignore or explain that Scripture away.
A second witness is Mark 5:30-32. Jesus did not know who touched Him. He perceived that the power of the Spirit went through Him, but He did not know who touched Him. So He again lacked knowledge. Those who do not believe the Scriptures will of course ignore or explain this Scripture away.
There is other scriptural proof, but those who ignore the two witnesses will not accept other scriptures that disagree with their personal opinion.
Jesus had no godly power as a Human. Jesus said that He of His own self could do nothing. That it was the Father in Him that did the works. Thus Jesus did not Himself perform any of the miracles He did.
We all need to guard against thinking our personal opinions are true, even if others make us think we are correct.
We must have at least two Scriptures in support of the Truth and no other scriptures can contradict a Truth. Scriptures trump personal opinions.
...But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. Isa 66:2
Hi JFK,
Greetings!
I myself could do nothing/ emptied Himself
You have your own explanations and points. That two witnesses is really necessary. :)
-
Mark 5 :30,32
Doesn't say Jesus didn't know who touched Him. I'm not saying He knew or didn't know, and I don't have an opinion on the answer either. But it doesn't say that He didn't know. It says He asked who touched Him. There's lots of places in scripture where God and Jesus ask questions that they knew the answers to.
God asked Adam and Eve questions. God asked Satan questions. Jesus asked the disciples questions.
How can you know whether or not Jesus knew who touched Him?
-
Hi Kat and thank you for your response.
So Jesus came forth from the Father, now what I’m understanding here is that Jesus is more like an extension of God the Father.
We human being are made from the dust of the earth, not created but made an also being made in the image of God , not in His image now but will be , future tense. Ultimately we are all from God but Christ is directly from God where as human being are not directly from God.
So when Jesus came forth from God , Jesus was instantly God and will always be God, Jesus is equal to God the Father but God the father is primary an Jesus is secondary in status only and also are two separate entity that are one in spirit or one in accord or singleness of mind or thought.
-
So Jesus came forth from the Father, now what I’m understanding here is that Jesus is more like an extension of God the Father.
v
Jesus is equal to God the Father but God the father is primary an Jesus is secondary in status only and also are two separate entity that are one in spirit or one in accord or singleness of mind or thought.
Rick in your post above I have underlined your comments and I don't feel they both can really be correct. If the Son is more like an extension of the Father, then they are not separate. See what I mean? I guess it's difficult because we want to think of their being Father and Son the same way humans are. A human baby comes out of the mother an is a separate being, I do not think it is that same way with the divine connection between Father and Son. Notice something interesting in this passage.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
v. 30 I and My Father are one."
In verse 28 Christ says nobody can snatch His sheep from "My hand," then in the very next verse speaking of the same thing He says nobody can snatch them from "My Father's hand." Another indication that shows how Christ is not actually separate. It is a conundrum, that through they are not separate, yet the Son is His own being and all the Scripture work together to point to the same thing, they are one, because the Father is in Him, literally.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Hi Kat,
I been reading the lake of fire series and had not gotten into Ray’s bible studies, Last night I started reading the transcripts from the Nashville Conf 07 of who and what is Jesus & who is His Father.
This is incredible stuff, I could not stop reading, I kept reading till like 3 o’clock in the morning.
There is so much stuff there an I was getting it, I was understanding all these things Ray was talking about.
I mean this whole thing with God for me started off with a deep belief in hell and being tortured forever, all I wanted to know was the truth about my destiny and why would God torture anyone forever for sinning the few short year that we live.
Now having some truth , I can see how silly it all was believing that God is going to do horrible things to us sinners knowing we cannot help ourselves.
I can’t explain what is happening to me inwardly , I mean this morning I went to bed and I’m laying there just thinking about all these things Ray was talking about and I start to feel this connection with God ,
I am overwhelmed in a good way to understand these things Ray is talking about because that which is false doctrine is losing its footing or root in me.
I am so thankful to receive all this truth I’m getting, I work many hours a day and don’t have much time to study, I wish I did but its not God’s plan for me to have all this time to study.
I want to say I was lead to this site by God, no doubt in me at all about that and I was lead here because I had one question I kept asking God , why are you going to make me go to hell because I like to do things you don’t approve of knowing well I can not help myself.
Not only did God answer my question about hell but he open this door in my life where all this truth is available to me.
Today I understand there is so much I don’t know about God but what I do know causes me to love God because I’m exposed to God’s truth after all these years of not having what I found here at B.T.
There is so much knowledge to learn here and this knowledge is setting me free and separating me from the world I once knew, yes from all this deception that is in the world, the world I’m no longer apart of but only passing through it. :)