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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Joey Porter on January 18, 2007, 01:13:01 AM
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This is something I've been thinking about lately. I am curious for the input of others; if you see the same thing.
We're probably all familiar with the story, but I'll post the scripture anyway:
Genesis 11
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
To me, that seems to be a prophecy of the church. The church seems to be trying to make a name for itself, building a figurative "tower" that reaches to heaven - a great big work of the flesh, with its great big fancy church buildings.
But God has confused its languages. That's why baptists don't see what methodists see, pre-tribbers don't see what post-tribbers see, eternal securists don't see what conditional securists see, Protestant/Catholic, Calvinist/Armenian, etc etc etc...The ''languages'' of the church world are all ''confused'' so that each denomination can't understand the other, even though they all use the same book!
Anyone agree?
I'm sure there is also all sorts of other spiritual symbolism in that story, such as the text saying "They used brick instead of stone." Anyone know what that might be trying to tell us?
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I would tend to agree with this. Yes, I believe it is. Thanks for postiing this topic. THis should generate a lot of interesting responses.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hi Joey,
This last sentence in your post is very interesting to me.
"I'm sure there is also all sorts of other spiritual symbolism in that story, such as the text saying "They used brick instead of stone." Anyone know what that might be trying to tell us?"
God is often referred to as a rock or stone. Could it be saying that the foundation of the church doctrine is built on a man made brick instead of the rock that is God?
Tim
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Thanks for the replies.
Timothy, I believe that you may be correct. I was thinking along the same lines. Bricks of course, are from the earth, just like Adam. Perhaps building with bricks symbolizes works of the flesh. And of course, Christ is the "Stone that the builders have rejected."
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Do you think this whole story a parable? I find this an interesting subject. But I don't have any insights.
gena
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I believe it is a true historical event that also happens to be a parable about and a prophecy of the divided church world.
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Very well said. Excellent insight and analogy of the church of today as being in the same Tower of Babel condition as the people of old. I agree totally that the 'church' is blinded (by their own idols of their hearts.) (An example being...the very name 'Non Denominational' church is such a contradiction of terms ...as in 'denomination' means to be separate, thus to be non-separate is on oxymoron since the non denominational church is just another 'denomination'. ::) (Just one of my peeves) It just amazes me when I think about astronomical amount of numbers of those who are deceived; it's almost depressing. :'(Thank you Lord for discernment.)
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Hello Joey
That is an interesting observation!
You ask : "They used brick instead of stone." Anyone know what that might be trying to tell us?
What immediately came to my mind was, brick is man made and stone is rock. The rock of our Salvation is Jesus Christ the corner stone!
Christ will also be building His Church from living stones! ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Joey,
This very subject of the tower of Babel entered my mind the other day, when I was watching a tv program.
The show was about some person who had build a grand house and had a wonderful landscape with a water garden and all that money could buy done with it. It was a beautiful place I must say, but I was thinking they are trying to do for themselves the same thing as those who built the tower of Babel. They were trying to make a place that would reach to heaven or be like heaven on earth, for themselves to have.
I use to desire to have a grand home, but those desires have faded far into the distance. I now know that what is here on earth is temporary, and like the parable of the man who had so much, he built bigger to contain it all, it is all in vanity.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat drink and be merry.
v.20 But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul shall be required of you, then whose shall be those things which you have prepared?
Ecc 1:14 I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
Solomon came to this conclusion after having everything that his heart desired, but nothing that he could find satisified him.
The whole world is tryng to build something in this lifetime that will satisify them and make them happy.
The elect are the few who are building up their treasures in heaven.
Mat 6:19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal,
v.20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
v.21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
mercy, peace, and love
Kathy
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Since the plan of God is to return and restore all mankind to Himself, then I think that the Tower of Babel is symbolic of mankind striving to build a "perfect" world and manage his own agenda outside and separate from the power of God, the presence of God and the Sovereignty of God. The Church in this Age and institutional religion as a whole are part of that, but not the whole picture. The whole world outside of Christ is what is being spoken of. That is just my opinion.
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Hello Marycee
Your post reminded me of this e-mail response from Ray.
Dearest Ray
You are a "ray" of light! Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
Thank you & bless you
Deborah
Dear Deborah:
Good question.
The "world" represents two entities in Scripture: [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the the nations in general.
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD" (John 16:33). What "world?" Did He overcome China? Japan? Indolnesia? No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
But in John 17:24 rea read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governemtns.
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace." Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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a few of the old tesament books seem to be speaking of God's elect.
it seems that so much of the OT is just prophecy of those who will overcome the church world, and I must say it appears that these overcomers are very important to Him and He holds them in very very high esteem!
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Hello Marycee
Your post reminded me of this e-mail response from Ray.
Dearest Ray
You are a "ray" of light! Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
Thank you & bless you
Deborah
Dear Deborah:
Good question.
The "world" represents two entities in Scripture: [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the the nations in general.
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD" (John 16:33). What "world?" Did He overcome China? Japan? Indolnesia? No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
But in John 17:24 rea read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governemtns.
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace." Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,
Ray
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Good thoughts, as always, by Brother Ray.
I base my understanding that the Tower of Babel refers to all mankind and his endeavors in all areas, and is not just a symbol concerning apostate religion, because the Tower of Babel occurred before there was Judaism or Christianity, and it was not speaking in the context of any religion. It was speaking in the context of man's going his own way ignoring God. Of course, false religion is always a part of the world system, but the world system, I feel, is the greater system referred to in the Tower of Babel. Why else would it speak of God confusing the languages? I could certainly be wrong. It could also be speaking of God confusing man's religion, too. Actually, God does not wish man to be religious; and I think we all agree on that. He wants man to know Him and obey Him; but that is not religion.
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Good replies from everyone.
What I see in the tower of Babel story that stands out to me the most, and how it relates the church, is the confusing of the languages.
Just think about it. There is one God. One Word. The same 66 books about the same God used by the church, but there are thousands of denominations in the church world, and they all see contradicting things.
The "language" of the church world is confused. I guess the church world is a microcosm of the whole world.
The Calvinist can't understand the "language" of the Arminian. The Pre Trib believer can't understand the "language" of the Post Trib believer. They are each convinced that they see the truths of these issues in the scriptures yet none can see what the other sees or understand what the other does. It's just like a Japanese man trying to talk Japanese to a German who only understand German.
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Hey Joey!
It seems to me that it's not just one demomination can't understand another, it's the Christian church as a whole can't understand the truths contained in either the old or the new testaments.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are outside, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
I think that is what is being talked about here when it refers to confusing their languages, and if they can't understand they can't agree and then they will be devided.
Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but comes to an end.
Just something to think about!
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Having been through the Church System I too was blind and thought I could see! I too was "outside" but thought that was "In". It has since become very transparent to me, that Church teachings often were presented or based on DO's and DON'Ts to aggrandize Church leadership ::) and subdue Church followers. :'( Obedience was a pivotal rule of subjugation and manipulation.
Only God, not Church or State can give us to Chirst. And only Christ not Church or State can make us into HIS own image.
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
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What a great thread! So many articulate and interesting observations. Yes, I can see this applying to both "worlds" but especially to the churchworld because they at least know of Him but yet do follow their own imaginations, lusts and desires, the same as the unbelieving world.
Joey, you really need to post more often! ;D
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Thanks everyone.
Martymonster, I have thought many times about Jesus' words: "A house divided against itself can not stand." It is so clear to me now how this refers to "The house of God," and how Babylon will fall (or maybe now even is fallen).
Joe, I am sort of "in the spirit" right now so I'm on a bit of a posting spree.
I was surfing around the site a little bit and figured I'd scan over the "Tongues" paper on Ray's site, not really expecting to get any revelations or anything, but something really stood out to me early in the paper. It's the scripture that Ray posted, from Acts:
"And they were all [the 120 disciples of Christ] filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues [languages] as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own LANGUAGE.
And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak, Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue [language/dialect], wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and the strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:7-11).
The parts that I underlined are what really got my attention. Perhaps this shows us that when we "come out of Babylon," and are united by the Spirit of Truth, we begin to see and understand the things of God with a more unified mind.
So we leave behind whatever "languages" (that is, false doctrines) that we had when we were still in Babylon, and we can then start to better see the same Truths in scripture, as opposed to seeing different things when we were still in carnal and divided babylon, when we all spoke "different languages."
It would be kind of like all of the "chosen" coming together and saying "Wow! I used to be a baptist and you were a methodist and he was a pentecostal and she was a catholic, but now we are all seeing the same things in the scriptures!"
I'm not sure if I explained that clearly or if anyone understands what I mean.
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Hello Joey,
It is awesome when we get that "in the Spirit" recharge!
Your observation on the "tongues" verses connected with me immediately, we are doing this here constantly as we describe to each other the workings of Christ within us, the personal trials and tribulations, the peaks and valley's, the wilderness and all of the experiences we share. Describing this to someone who has not been through or is not going through these places would count it as the rantings of a lunatic!
Yes, we are now speaking the same language even though we all come from different places. Interesting, I have been in a private discussion about this as well as a few threads where this phenomenon is being addressed but what you wrote puts it even in a more incredible light.
Thank you for sharing this wonderful thought. Keep 'em coming! ;)
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I had this thought quite some time ago but mine was on a different out look.
How many times I tried to build my tower of Bable. I used many bricks to build upon that tower and I too thought I was putting myself closer and closer to God and then one day my speach was changed as well as my selfish carnal way of thinking.
My tower of Babel came crushing down as the bricks were taken out of place one by one. God has so graciously showed and still is showing be that my foundation must be made upon the ROCK and He is slowly building that tempel on the foundation of Christ. Every once in a while I try to start a row of bricks and God has to grind them to pieces and then continue to build stone upon stone once again. He is getting me closer and closer to Him from that solid ROCK foundation.
Just a thought.
bobby
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Hi Joey,
Talking about tongues got me to thinking.
I agree that among believers we understand each other and it's a foreign language to the world.
When the elect are brought into the kingdom they will be given all the gifts of the Spirit.
So the elect will speak with tongues and I guess have a pure language, or all languages.
That's how they will commuicate with all the people in the resurrection of the dead.
Just a little thought I had.
mecry, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
The wonders of His Word, truth found in so many layers on so many levels, it is awesome to contemplate.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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1Peter 2 : 4 Come to Him then, to that Living Stone which men tried and threw away, but which is chosen and precious in God's sight. 5. Come and, like living stones, be yourselves built into a spiritual house, for a holy dedicated,consecrated priesthood, to offer up those spiritual sacrifieces that are acceptable and pleasein g to God through Jesus Christ.
John 17 : 21 That they all may be one, just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me.
Peace in fellowship ;D
Arcturus
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While contemplating this thread I was reminded of the many references to "obelisks" in some translations, King James and others read either "columns" or "pillars" but obelisks are a better description or should I say gives a more textured, insightful meaning to certain verses.
First off here is a definition/description of an obelisk;
History of the Egyptian Obelisks
The obelisk, called TEJEN in the sacred language of the ancient
Egyptians, was a term which was synonymous with "protection" or "defense." The needle of stone had the function of perforating the clouds and dispersing negative forces that always threaten to accumulate, in the form of visible storms
or invisible ones, and was placed over the temple as a symbol of a petrified ray.
The word "Obelisk" comes from the Greek obeliskos, meaning a prong for roasting. It is a stone that is frequently monolithic, of a quadrangular base, placed upright and ending with a pointed top. It was placed in the center of large open spaces in the temples of the solar god RA. They arose, by the time of the predynastic period cults, to a great sacred stone which was raised in the Temple of Heliopolis, the "City of the Sun." As with the pyramids, this monument had a primitive relation with the solar cult.
As a general rule, obelisks were erected in pairs and served to magically protect the temple.
The obelisk is composed of two parts:the body and the pyramidon. The body is a long block of a conic trunk section and the pyramidon symbolizes the rays of the sun. The top is the point of a pyramid formation which crowns the monolith and rested on a base. It was plated in gold, a metal which the Egyptians affirmed was the "flesh of the gods."
Now this from;
Exodus 34 (Ampilfied)
12Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant or mutual agreement with the inhabitants of the land to which you go, lest it become a snare in the midst of you.
13But you shall destroy their altars, dash in pieces their pillars (obelisks, images), and cut down their Asherim [symbols of the goddess Asherah];
14For you shall worship no other god; for the Lord, Whose name is Jealous, is a jealous (impassioned) God,
15Lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they play the harlot after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and one invites you, you eat of his food sacrificed to idols,
16And you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods and make your sons play the harlot after their gods.
17You shall make for yourselves no molten gods.
18The Feast of Unleavened Bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, in the time of the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.
And;
2 Chronicles 31:1
NOW WHEN all this was finished, all Israel present there went out to the cities of Judah and broke in pieces the pillars or obelisks, cut down the Asherim, and threw down the high places [of idolatry] and the altars in all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the Israelites returned to their own cities, every man to his possession.
I remember Ray touching on this subject and him pointing out the similarity to what one may see when looking up at a roof of a church building, this pointed pillar/obelisk reaching into the sky.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Seems to me that the church indeed is symbolized by the tower of Babel in MANY ways!
And it goes to show just how far God went to "keep the truth from us!" because-- seeing and hearing the truth would have led us to eternal life....but not in the ORDER that He intened!!
The church had several official languages at first; Hebrew, Greek, Aaramaic and Latin....but later we translated the Bible into nearly every single language on earth! (over 1200 !)
And in every denomination, as many here have pointed out....you get an entirely different take on what the Bible means....and on what "our founding fathers" in the church meant.....and on what Jesus "REALLY" said....and so on and so forth! Confusion! Babel! Incredible!
Joyce :)
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Don't forget the other key element of this time period - Nimrod. He was like the Pope and President of Babel and the tower. What does he represent?
The book of Jasher is an interesting (albeit, non-scriptural) book that lends some interesting insight on this topic. Worth a read if you have the time.
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Thanks to everyone for helping to add further in depth wisdom on this topic.