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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: fe32k on October 19, 2008, 04:58:40 AM
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Hi all,
s'been a while. Anyway I have a quick Question. I know Ray believes that the wicked will be raised with Physical Bodies, but after reading his article regarding this I noticed that the argument he mostly presented was that evil men like Hitler cannot be raised with a glorious, immortal, incorruptible spiritual body. Thats all fine and dandy, but then I thought about something and haven't been able to reconcile it.
What about Satan?
Does he currently have a an incorruptible spiritual body? I know we can agree it is spiritual, but is it immortal and glorious? Is satan wicked? I think we can agree on that too. I tried to think about this and make sense of it, but I keep coming to the same conclusion.
If Satan is a wicked Spiritual Being, then why can't wicked humans be raised as spiritual beings?
Any help with this is appreciated.
Fe
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GOD: "And the Lord God said unto the serpent ['the great dragon was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil and Satan' Rev. 12:9], Because you have done this, YOU ARE CURSED...." (Gen. 3:14). Sounds like God is in full control of Satan.
GOD: "And the Lord said unto Satan, behold, He is in your hand, BUT SAVE HIS LIFE" (Job 2:6). Satan can do no more than God permits him to do.
JESUS: "Then said Jesus unto him, GET THEE HENCE SATAN...then Devil LEAVES HIM" (Matt. 4:10-11). Jesus had completely and total control over Satan.
BELIEVERS: "Submit yourselves therefore to God, Resist the Devil, AND HE WILL FLEE [Gk: 'run away, vanish']FROM YOU" (James 4:7).
"And the Devil that deceived them WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone..." (Rev. 20:16).
God be with you,
Ray
Excerpt from http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4681.0.html
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As far as I was aware, all were raised with the same spiritual body, only the wicked still had their carnal minds which will have to be removed in the lake of fire!
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
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As far as I was aware, all were raised with the same spiritual body, only the wicked still had their carnal minds which will have to be removed in the lake of fire!
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
'Flesh and blood' shall not inherit the kingdom is not a statement just regarding physical flesh and physical blood. The wicked/non-believers as well as the 'called' shall be raised with corruptible bodies since they have yet to be spiritually converted.
Excerpt from Ray's paper regarding physical and spiritual resurrection (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html)):
So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.” But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?
I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."
Eze 37:8 “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.] has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."
I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man. This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever. Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.
Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere. The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:
Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world? The salvation of the wicked? The resurrection of the wicked? NO. Let’s read it:
“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).
“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).
“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3). Etc.
What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks? “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).
The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment. Pay attention TO THE WORDS!
1Co 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I touched on this subject yesterday with Ray and he pointed out that a physical body adds to their humiliation.
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I’m always learning something new. So if most of humanity is going to be raised with a physical body will these receive a spiritual body after they come through the lake of fire or are they forever with a physical body? :-\
In His Love. Richard.
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They will be equal with the chosen after their lake of fire.
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Hey Dennis,
Can I safely assume that they will be resurrected with the same body they died with?
I know if I came back and still was fat I would be most humiliated;)
Seriously, such things do humble people right?
Antaiwan
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The way I am seeing this is all of humanity has been given physical life, none will be 'born' into the kingdom and receive spiritually bodies until they have a 'spiritual' ressurection.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born (Strong 1080, gennaō - regenerate) again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
v.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again.'
v. 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
We see in this statement that Christ made that we must be "born of the Spirit." Born means regenerated, that is the "change" that Paul talks about (1 Cor 15:52). But first all human being must be begotten and begin the proces to learn righteousness and be brought into His image, for the few now and the rest in the Lake of Fire.
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We are begotten now in this life, but we must judge ourslves and begin to "live to righteousness" and "die to sin"/self.
1Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
When Christ returns there will be the resurrection of the dead, but there is two categories "just and the unjust (Strong 49,adikos - unjust; by extension wicked; by implication treacherous; specifically heathen: - unjust, unrighteous)."
Act 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
The Elect are going through this process of dying to self now, the rest will have to go through this same process while still physical in the Lake of fire. The world will be ruled by Christ and the Elect and the monumentous task of saving all of humanity will get underway.
That is how I understand it anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This relates too:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8510.0.html
Everything about us should be humbling Antaiwan. No idea what bodies the called will have.
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These are all fine responses but none really answers my question. My thought was that Spiritual beings can be wicked and used Satan (aka the Devil) as an example. I am not for nor am I against a physical resurrection, but I need to know why is it that we should be 100% certain that the wicked are resurrected in a physical body and it seems that Ray is. To say that they are raised this way because it is more humiliating sounds like human reasoning and not scriptural in my opinion, but I could be wrong and will admit it if a scripture is shown.
Now here is my question again, rephrased to be a bit more comprehensible:
Ray says that the wicked are raised in physical bodies because the wicked cannot have a spiritual body. But then why is Satan a spiritual being with a spiritual body, but yet is wicked? Is it a prerequisite for a spiritual being to be glorious and incorruptible? Or can a spiritual being be corruptible? (i.e. Satan)
And Arcturus, I do know the things which you quoted about Satan, but to lie is to sin, and he is a lier from the beginning. So therefore he must be wicked, despite the fact that he's doing God's will.
thanks all,
Fe
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Fe,
What part of the excerpt I posted with scriptures did you still not understand?
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Ray says that the wicked are raised in physical bodies because the wicked cannot have a spiritual body. But then why is Satan a spiritual being with a spiritual body, but yet is wicked? Is it a prerequisite for a spiritual being to be glorious and incorruptible? Or can a spiritual being be corruptible? (i.e. Satan)
thanks all,
Fe
I think I understand what you are saying, but why can they not both be true? Satan is wicked, but he is not human.
Saddam Hussein was very wicked but he is not a spirit.
From the article:
1Co 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God. Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not. Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection? Well many say “YES, yes they will.” NO, no they WON’T! Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?” Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”
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Hey Dennis,
Thanks again. But your reasoning assumes that a spirit being is incorruptible. So is satan incorruptible? I totally agree with you that they may both be true, but one must accept the possibility that there are different possibilities. I do not think that this will make or break me, but I think it is important for us to analyze the facts if we are going to make a decision towards one side. So why can't a wicked man be raised with a corruptible spiritual body. It is possible if we believe that Satan is a corruptible spiritual being, right? Your thoughts?...
Fe
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Fe,
What part of the excerpt I posted with scriptures did you still not understand?
[/
quote] hi my brother, if you are telling me and the other people that read this forum that you understand the spiritual meaning of these scriptures that you quote ,then you are so far out of my league of the understanding of God's word that maybe I should move on to a forum where the people are not so privileged to understand the meanings of the scriptures. I say this because you seem to know the meaning of what Jeasus has spoken in parables. Why ,I spoke in parables so that they would not all believe at the same time ,therefore not be saved in their order .It is very easy to be abusive, especially when you think you know it all.
love y'ans in the Spirit of Jesus
Dewey
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The way it looks to me is that the spirit being, were created from the beginning as spirit/messenger beings, so when their time of judgment comes they will be judged as such.
2Peter 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)
Jude 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day." (CLV)
These spirit/messengers are a separate creation from the human creation and it is humanity that God is putting through the process of making into His image.
Heb 1:13 Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, "Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet"? (CLV)
v.14 Are they not all ministering spirits commissioned for service because of those who are about to be enjoying the allotment of salvation?
Where is there a scrpture that states that people in the resurrection from the dead will be spirit beings, apart from 1 Cor. 15 where Paul is speaking to the believers? I can not find any. But there are Scripture that indicate they will be flesh and blood.
Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, "O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
v. 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
v. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.""'
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Fe,
One thing we do know for sure - Jesus while on earth set the pattern for all mankind. He was begotten by His Fathers spirit while a man on earth, and then raised with a glorious spirit body. Every person on earth must follow that pattern. The elect in this age are begotten by God's spirit and will be raised with glorious spirit bodies next (following Jesus). The rest of mankind will be begotten of God's spirit in the next age while in the flesh (following the pattern), and then will be raised with a glorious spiritual body.
Satan is not of mankind, but he certainly has not inherited God's kingdom. But it seems if he too is to be saved in God's time He will deal with him in the best way. But it will be different from the way he deals with mankind since Satan is not flesh but spirit already.
1Cor 15: 42,43 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;"
Of course, this scripture is speaking of the elect now, but all mankind follow. From perishable body (flesh), to imperishable body (spirit).
Just my thoughts,
Cindy
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Hi Dewey,
I understood every part of that excerpt. But unfortunately it is one of Ray's teachings I do not quite see eye to eye yet. Either God has not opened my eyes to it or God hasn't opened Ray's eyes to it (very possible). But this is not a forum for arguing Ray's teachings so I will respect that rule and refrain from doing so. I will say however that the excerpt you posted does not answer my question. I don't know or assume anything. I just sincerely want a scriptural answer. Ray says in your excerpt that he knows of no spirit with tendons muscles and what not, but I do know one thing; Ezekiel 37:8 is a vision and why is Ray taking that vision literally is beyond me (literally beyond me, because I do not understand). If anything I learned from Ray is to not take visions literally.
Thanks!
Fe
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Hi Dewey,
I understood every part of that excerpt. But unfortunately it is one of Ray's teachings I do not quite see eye to eye yet. Either God has not opened my eyes to it or God hasn't opened Ray's eyes to it (very possible). But this is not a forum for arguing Ray's teachings so I will respect that rule and refrain from doing so. I will say however that the excerpt you posted does not answer my question. I don't know or assume anything. I just sincerely want a scriptural answer. Ray says in your excerpt that he knows of no spirit with tendons muscles and what not, but I do know one thing; Ezekiel 37:8 is a vision and why is Ray taking that vision literally is beyond me (literally beyond me, because I do not understand). If anything I learned from Ray is to not take visions literally.
Thanks!
Fe
Hello Fe,
That is an excellent point regarding not taking a vision literally. But what about the rest of Ezekial 4?
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
This is a prophecy that has to come to pass. No, the Lord is not going to literally raise 'these bones' from the vision but He will eventually raise bones into physical bodies.
Also, have you ever read a scripture that you believe states that the wicked/unbelievers/called would be raised into a spiritual, immortal body? It's one thing to not agree with the scriptures given, but is there another scripture you believe states otherwise. I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck; I am just wondering how this thinking of all with spiritual bodies came about. I hope we, the other members, can help you find the answer you seek.
Thanks,
Marques
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hi fe,
as arcturus pointed out from an excerpt from one of ray's teachings, "God is in full control of satan".
we cannot reason with our human brains how God will transform satan after he has been cast into the lake of fire.
satan was created by God for His purposes. you cannot try to reason about evil humans upon resurrection by comparing them to an evil spirit satan. it's not apples to apples. it's apples to oranges.
i pray that God will show you His Truths in your spirit pertaining to the lake of fire. all who have studied diligently the teachings of God regarding the truth about the lake of fire, which are and have always been testified of in His scriptures, and expounded to us by the spirit of Jesus Christ through our brother ray smith KNOW by that same spirit of Jesus Christ, that God indeed has opened ray's (spiritual) eyes of understanding on this matter. no ifs ands or buts.
claudia
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Marques and Claudia,
Good responses to Fe and patiently stated. I'm proud of both of you for unities sake.
As we may agree some things will be learned later when God is ready to share.
My take on it is that God isn't going to elevate Satan to full sonship in a similar manner that He is each of us. Satan may in some manner remain a messenger of the order of Gabriel or Michael who remained obedient and faithful during their service to God. (not by their free will but according to their assignment) It is intimidating to me to think that great and powerful beings such as Gabriel and Michael who had such astounding responsibilities and delegated authority, will someday relate to us as servants of God's elected children. Astounding!
One idea that comes to mind and that may not apply here, is that the angels know that they will not die. They may be in some manner immortal already. That is not to say that they cannot be destroyed if God wills, but they don't need food or oxygen to continue to exist. So, in that manner they are quite different from us.
Also, the angels were never conceived of their parents and never had to grow and mature from infants to adults, with dependence upon another human for their continued existance; as far as we know.
Then there are the 24 elders. There is so much yet to learn and if this discussion is to decide whether we are raised spirit and then whether spirit can be corrected or purified, then perhaps I don't see the NEED to KNOW.
We were made to be selfish and have the basic need to be changed.
Satan was made to tempt or test human kind and God made him as he is for a good purpose, so who is accountable for Satan's character?
Just my musings. Indiana bob
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Hey Fe,
I'd like to throw myself into the pot!
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Mar 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Mar 1:25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
Mar 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
Act 8:8 And there was great joy in that city.
Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
If I am understanding scripture correctly there are obviously unclean spirits, and Jesus, his apostles and even the lake of fire will cast out these spirits. Mind you there are more scriptures that show the power of Jesus and his chosen having power over these unclean spirits.
I don’t know at anytime that Satan was and is a spiritual being but scriptures do imply it.
Ray seems to make a point that Satan is always referred to as a serpent or dragon or devil (as scriptures refer to him as)
Since he is the father of lies, deception, and these acts are evil I’m going to say that Satan has unclean spirits. Also if he didn’t have unclean spirits why would he need to be thrown in the lake of fire?
Also no where in scripture does it say that spirits are incorruptible just by being a spirit (where by we have unclean spirits) Surely unclean spirits must be corruptible?? Sounds strange to me but then again corruption must put on incorruption.
Also Satan himself may be an unclean spirit and purged totally from the earth in the lake of fire??? Hope I’m not speaking as a fool!! If I am I stand to be corrected!
Hopes this helps Fe (symbol for Iron, hope your being sharpened!)
Antaiwan
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Is Ezekiel 37 not a parable? Does Ray interpret this as a literal, physical event of dry bones literally coming together because of some literal shaking? The language seems to imply that the dry bones symbolize a people void of the living waters of TRUTH and are completely "dried up"...SPIRITUALLY speaking. God then gives them the knowledge of the truth by making those "dry bones" come to LIFE (not physically, but SPIRITUALLY) and then puts them "into their OWN LAND" (NEW Jerusalem). I believe that this "coming to LIFE" is vividly portrayed in metaphorical language as bones coming together with tendons, skin and breath (which are the essential elements that form a LIVING PERSON). Is this not the message of Ezekiel 37? I don't see how this can be taken literally. I don't see any "humiliation" here at all.
God also states that he will give them a "heart of FLESH". Ray admits and teaches that this is not LITERAL, but SPIRITUAL. Israel had a hear of STONE. This heart of FLESH is an obvious metaphor, symbolizing a PURE heart. Well, to me, the "dry bones" coming to life symbolizes a spiritually dead person being given the living waters of LIFE/TRUTH.
Psalms 63:1 "O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my FLESH longeth for thee in a DRY AND THIRSTY LAND, where no water [truth] is"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a DRY GROUND: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Matthew 12:43 "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through DRY PLACES, seeking rest, and findeth none"
Hey, I've been wrong before! One day we will know for sure! :)
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Is Ezekiel 37 not a parable? Does Ray interpret this as a literal, physical event of dry bones literally coming together because of some literal shaking? The language seems to imply that the dry bones symbolize a people void of the living waters of TRUTH and are completely "dried up"...SPIRITUALLY speaking. God then gives them the knowledge of the truth by making those "dry bones" come to LIFE (not physically, but SPIRITUALLY) and then puts them "into their OWN LAND" (NEW Jerusalem). I believe that this "coming to LIFE" is vividly portrayed in metaphorical language as bones coming together with tendons, skin and breath (which are the essential elements that form a LIVING PERSON). Is this not the message of Ezekiel 37? I don't see how this can be taken literally. I don't see any "humiliation" here at all.
God also states that he will give them a "heart of FLESH". Ray admits and teaches that this is not LITERAL, but SPIRITUAL. Israel had a hear of STONE. This heart of FLESH is an obvious metaphor, symbolizing a PURE heart. Well, to me, the "dry bones" coming to life symbolizes a spiritually dead person being given the living waters of LIFE/TRUTH.
Psalms 63:1 "O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my FLESH longeth for thee in a DRY AND THIRSTY LAND, where no water [truth] is"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a DRY GROUND: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Matthew 12:43 "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through DRY PLACES, seeking rest, and findeth none"
Hey, I've been wrong before! One day we will know for sure! :)
Aaahhh, but do you have a spiritual match to tendons, muscles, etc. having a spiritual meaning? :)
To me, the scripture on 'flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom' is the giveaway. Because it is both physical flesh & blood and also carnal mindedness. That's really what I think it's all about. Will carnal minded souls receive a spiritual, immortal body? Looking at it from this perspective, I have not read anyone present any scriptures that support this view. And then, the scriptures that state those carnal-minded souls will not receive a spiritual, immortal body do not have enough detail to everyone's liking. This is no one's fault or anything, just how we are and our differences. Great thread nonetheless.
Thanks,
Marques
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Hey Dennis,
Thanks again. But your reasoning assumes that a spirit being is incorruptible. So is satan incorruptible? I totally agree with you that they may both be true, but one must accept the possibility that there are different possibilities. I do not think that this will make or break me, but I think it is important for us to analyze the facts if we are going to make a decision towards one side. So why can't a wicked man be raised with a corruptible spiritual body. It is possible if we believe that Satan is a corruptible spiritual being, right? Your thoughts?...
Fe
There are the good messengers and the bad messengers, neither of which will come up in the resurrection.
I can only repeat what Ray said that makes perfect sense to me:
Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection? Well many say “YES, yes they will.” NO, no they WON’T! Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?” Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”
Saddam Hussein was corrupt and will come up in the resurrection still corrupt. He will have to go through what the elect are now going through to inherit incorruption. He doesn't get a free pass to a spirit being that is more limited in it's ability to receive correction.
Let's not forget that the former resurrection is the better, more desirable of the two resurrections. I'd much rather come up as a spirit that no longer feels any discomfort or pain than in this body.
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Concordant: Heb 2:7 Thou makest him some bit inferior to messengers, With glory and honor Thou wreathest him, And dost place him over the works of Thy hands."
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Right now, we are inferior to Satan in some respects. One of which is he is a spirit being with the ability to directly communicate with the Lord.
It is the elect who do the judging, not the messengers. Saddam Hussein will have to deal with the elect as a human being before he is made incorruptible and has direct access to the Lord. Just as the elect have to be judged now as human beings before they will have direct access to the Lord.
Dennis
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i believe it all has to do with inheriting the kingdom. According to Dan 12:2 all are raised to age-lasting something, but is that the same as inheriting the kingdom. Is it to far a stretch to say the kingdom of heaven is in the mind? Remember Jesus was in heaven while He was on earth also,
So the unjust may be raised with a spiritual body like satan, but still have a carnal mind and not be in the kingdom while the others are in the kingdom of heaven (mind) (the just) also with a spiritual bodies.
So i guess this lead to the question what is the kingdom of heaven. According to Rays teachings it has something to do with the mind.
Anthony
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i believe it all has to do with inheriting the kingdom. According to Dan 12:2 all are raised to age-lasting something, but is that the same as inheriting the kingdom. Is it to far a stretch to say the kingdom of heaven is in the mind? Remember Jesus was in heaven while He was on earth also,
So the unjust may be raised with a spiritual body like satan, but still have a carnal mind and not be in the kingdom while the others are in the kingdom of heaven (mind) (the just) also with a spiritual bodies.
So i guess this lead to the question what is the kingdom of heaven. According to Rays teachings it has something to do with the mind.
Anthony
Hello Anthony,
I understand your viewpoint, but what saith the scriptures?
1 Cor 15
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [carnal mindedness] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption [corrupt, carnal mind will not inherit spiritual, immortal, incorruptable bodies.
It is a contradiction of scripture to state carnal minded souls inheriting spiritual, immortal bodies. I'm not trying to be harsh, but where is SCRIPTURE that states the wicked inheriting spiritual, immortal bodies BEFORE going through judgment. This is one of the many wonderful purposes for judgment. The spiritual body is representative to our spiritual minds; also remember spirit is like the wind...how can a carnal mind (physical) be in a spiritual, invisible body?
Also, please don't think I am trying to debate; I always discuss the Word directly so nothing personable to anyone reading. We are all seeking the same thing: CHRIST! ;D
Thanks,
Marques
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Hi Anthony,
Here is the Scripture you were referring to.
Dan 12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
I think the key is in the Scriptrue Dennis posted from Ray.
Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection? Well many say “YES, yes they will.” NO, no they WON’T! Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?” Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”
It seems to me most use 1 Cor . 15 to imply all will be raised spirit being. But notice who Paul is speaking to.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you The joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;
Now notice that the subject is to "be made alive."
1Co 15:20 But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,—a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;
v.21 For, since indeed, through a man, came death, through a man, also cometh the raising of the dead;
v. 22 For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
v. 23 But, each, in his own rank:—A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ’s, in his presence,
Paul goes on to elaborate more on this resurrection, as to be "raised in incorruption," "raised in glory," "raised in power," "raised a body of the spirit." This must be only talking about those in the first resurrection.
1Co 15:42 Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
v. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
v. 44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
Isn't this the blessing talked about in Rev. 20.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Good posts Marquess and Kat
I see my error
Thanks,
Anthony :)
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Hi Kat,
You say:
Paul goes on to elaborate more on this resurrection, as to be "raised in incorruption," "raised in glory," "raised in power," "raised a body of the spirit." This must be only talking about those in the first resurrection.
How do you know that this "MUST" be talking of ONLY the FIRST resurrection? It doesn't say that. It says "the resurrection of the DEAD". Since ALL will be "resurrected from the DEAD", this must be talking about the just AND the unjust, since it does not tell us which of the two resurrections he was talking about. Paul could have said the "BETTER resurrection of the dead" as he did in Phil 3:11....but he did not do that. He is making reference to THE resurrection of the dead, which according to Acts 24:15 includes both the just AND the unjust.
To be honest, I'm not 100% convinced EITHER way. I'm just trying to collect all the evidence and make a sound conclusion :)
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It seems to me most use 1 Cor . 15 to imply all will be raised spirit being. But notice who Paul is speaking to.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you The joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;
Now notice that the subject is to "be made alive."
1Co 15:20 But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,—a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;
v.21 For, since indeed, through a man, came death, through a man, also cometh the raising of the dead;
v. 22 For, just as, in the Adam, all die, so, also, in the Christ, shall all be made alive.
v. 23 But, each, in his own rank:—A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ’s, in his presence,
Paul goes on to elaborate more on this resurrection, as to be "raised in incorruption," "raised in glory," "raised in power," "raised a body of the spirit." This must be only talking about those in the first resurrection.
1Co 15:42 Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
v. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
v. 44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
This is why Kat stated it is talking of those in the first resurrection...because of the first scriptures in ch. 15 of 1 Corinthians, not her own opinion.
Marques
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Thanks Marques,
Yes that is why I stated it 'must' be the first, because of all the references in the rest of the chapter. Those in the first resurrection will also be in the resurrection of the dead, but it will be to "life." The rest will be to "condemnation," or as some translations say "judgment." But that is still the same "resurrection of the dead," just 2 different cateorgies.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
I see a clear difference here, but that's my opinion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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1Cor 15?42 "Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption (is this speaking of body and mind?), it is raised in incorruption (then this would have to mean both body and mind), vs43) it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
If these verses are speaking of both the just and the unjust, then the unjust are raised in incorruption, with glory and power.
What need would they have to go thru the lake of fire?? ???
Don't mean to offend anyone but this sounds to me like the apostate churches teaching of being changed immediately when you die and sent to heaven or hell before being judged at the White Throne Judgement.
Peace,
Cindy :)
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Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
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1Cor 15?42 "Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption (is this speaking of body and mind?), it is raised in incorruption (then this would have to mean both body and mind), vs43) it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
If these verses are speaking of both the just and the unjust, then the unjust are raised in incorruption, with glory and power.
What need would they have to go thru the lake of fire?? ???
Don't mean to offend anyone but this sounds to me like the apostate churches teaching of being changed immediately when you die and sent to heaven or hell before being judged at the White Throne Judgement.
Peace,
Cindy :)
Hi Cindy,
I do not mean to offend anyone but is not the Great White throne the "clearing house" for the just and unjust or elect and not elect whom will be purged.
Aka - Rev 20 = resurrection of ALL mankind. Lamb's Book of life and those not found. and then Justice!
Digitalwise
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Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
fe,
you state that you are just trying to understand why ray has made up his mind on this. i believe it is time you emailed ray and asked him directly. ray not be able to type due to his pain at this time, but he is able to relay his response to you via one of the moderators who speaks to him on a regular basis.
claudia
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Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
fe,
you state that you are just trying to understand why ray has made up his mind on this. i believe it is time you emailed ray and asked him directly. ray not be able to type due to his pain at this time, but he is able to relay his response to you via one of the moderators who speaks to him on a regular basis.
claudia
I have to agree with Claudia as well...your comments and line of thinking seem to be in conflict with what Ray has taught.
I'll also say from personal experience...it's good if you have some scripture when presenting a different point of view with Ray. I didn't and of course fell flat on my face when scripture was presented.
The one thing I've noticed (and you can go back and look for yourself) is that you have yet to present any scriptures, only human reasoning. That is always a red flag with me even with my own thoughts. The scriptures have to be our foundation as the Word is Christ, that rock. Your reasoning seems to hedge on humans being resurrected into spiritual, immortal bodies but with carnal minds like Satan is now. Interesting thought, but again, where are the scriptures to support that? I have never read that the children of the devil (wicked [John 8:44]) being fashioned into Satan's image.
I also had this thought which I discussed with a friend regarding this subject:
Matt. 23:24-26 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Do we think our Lord wouldn't take his own guidance and counsel? Why would he place a carnal mind & heart into a spiritual body (which is invisible by the way [John 3:8])? That's like cleaning the outside of the cup (body) before cleaning the inside (carnal heart & mind).
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body5038 shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
H5038
נבלה
nebêlâh
neb-ay-law'
From H5034; a flabby thing, that is, a carcase or carrion (human or bestial, often collective); figuratively an idol: - (dead) body, (dead) carcase, dead of itself, which died, (beast) that (which) dieth of itself.
Marques presented some compelling scripture from Ezekiel 37, here is a second witness to what he posted, it seems apparent that the bodies being raised are corpses, beastly dead carcases....... However His chosen have a "better promise."
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Fe,
But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible?
I think I do understand your point and here what I see in the Scriptures.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
v. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Only those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be given this "life." Now a little further down we see that this "life" is for the "heirs," to be "glorified" with Him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
This is the reward of the just, the rest of creation "will be delivered," so it is yet to happen.
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(NKJV)
It tells us in 1 Cor. that as Adam was "the man of dust" and so are all humanity.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
v. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Now in verse 49 Paul says "we" he is talking to the Believers, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." Here it is in the Concordant.
1Co 15:49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial."
Now isn't this saying that those Believers/Elect will also be brought into "image of the heavenly man" at the resurrection? This image being heavenly - Celestial, which is spirit and unless you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you are still of Adam and "made of dust" and dust/flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.
But we do know who does inherit the Kingdom, His sheep, those that know His voice (John 10:4, 27).
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey All,
AK4, even though you admitted to error I still think your point is valid and has not been invalidated by any post on here yet. This leads to the question:
Why does everyone who is settled on a physical resurrection believe that to be raised a spiritual being is to be raised incorruptible?
incorruptible means spiritual
But does spiritual mean incorruptible? Obviously not.
And as I have said before, I am only using Satan as an example. The subject matter doesn't care how God deals with him, or how he is used or why he exists. That doesn't matter for my question. One of the arguments being put forth is that the 2nd resurrection is physical because the wicked CANNOT possibly get a spiritual, incorruptible body. Sure! I agree. But why can they not be raised with a spiritual corruptible body? Why is that not possible? I know of no scripture that states this is not possible especially since the scriptures confirm the existence of evil spirits. Surely they have a spiritual body, but not an incorruptible one. Does anyone understand my point now?
Again let me state, that I am not for, nor am I against physical resurrection. I still don't know. I am just trying to understand why Ray has made up his mind on this subject. This will not make or break my faith, but it definitely makes for a good discussion.
Thanks!
Fe
I think I understand your question.
My question then is why would God raise a carnel minded man to a spiritual body and yet still have his carnel mind? It would definitely be easy to then to rid yourself of carnel lust of the flesh since I don't have them any more, I have a spiritual body now!!whoopee!!
I can go to and fro like the wind now. No one will know when or were I'm coming from! Also take into the fact that carnel(which means fleshy) now dwells in an invisible body???HUH?? This doesn't work, at least not according to scripture.
All things are possible with God but this is not apart of his plan.
Also what is the purpose of a spiritual body? I think it has been stated already.
Men are flesh they must be dealt with accordingly.
This question is similar to asking why couldn't Adam be a spiritual being at the beginning?
It just wasn't God's plan nor his way of accomplishing his purpose.
Whats even more interesting to me is that God is dealing with these carnel minded men and wicked spirits the same way, with fire!! SO what does it matter if men are raised to be wicked spirits, they will be dealt with!!(But again this is not what God is doing)
Antaiwan
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Hi Digitalwise,
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the GWT being a "clearing house", but here is what I've come to understand from the scriptures and from Ray's writings on these scriptures. As always please correct me if I am wrong, I'm just a student as we all are.
My understanding: The Great White Throne Judgment is not a one time moment in time, but a time of judgment for all mankind. The elect are being judged now in this age (whether we can call this part of the GWT judgment or not, I'm not
sure). It is these same elect who will judge the rest of mankind in their GWT judgment, those who live thru the end of this age and the rest who are brought back to life. This will take time - just as the judgment of the elect takes time - all of their lives.
Please don't think I am implying that anyone on this forum is teaching apostasy. We are all struggling to understand and are being guided by His Spirit. What I meant is that the churches have the cart before the horse. Judgment after the "reward". or rather the reward of being raised spirit to see Christ Jesus face to face before the judgment that must take place first. Remember the judgment IS chastening and purging.
Sorry if I was not clear the first time.
Peace,
Cindy
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I would like to bring this Scripture in for consideration. Peter is speaking to the Believers and in verse 3 says what they should NOT be living like the Gentiles anymore.
But then in verse 5 he says that they/Gentiles will give account. Is this for what they were saying in verse 4, giving account of their "speaking evil of you" Belivers? And the accounting woulf be in the Great White Throne Judgment?
1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
But verse 6 is what I'm getting at here, as it states "they (referring to the Gentiles) might be judged according to men in the flesh." So is this referring to the White Throne Judgment and judging men "in the flesh"? Then they will learn to "live according to God in the spirit."
v. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Well I've looked at this a long time and that's what I see, so I'm wanted to bring this Scripture up and see what others think this is speaking of.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I would like to bring this Scripture in for consideration. Peter is speaking to the Believers and in verse 3 says what they should NOT be living like the Gentiles anymore.
But then in verse 5 he says that they/Gentiles will give account. Is this for what they were saying in verse 4, giving account of their "speaking evil of you" Belivers? And the accounting woulf be in the Great White Throne Judgment?
1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
But verse 6 is what I'm getting at here, as it states "they (referring to the Gentiles) might be judged according to men in the flesh." So is this referring to the White Throne Judgment and judging men "in the flesh"? Then they will learn to "live according to God in the spirit."
v. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Well I've looked at this a long time and that's what I see, so I'm wanted to bring this Scripture up and see what others think this is speaking of.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hey Kat,
In verse 6:
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause(the cause of Christ) was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they(the dead) might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.(men still in the flesh but walk after righteousness)
I'm not quite sure this is speaking of the white throne judgement??
I could be wrong because the words "might be" give me a since of hope or a looking forward to.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by the GWT being a "clearing house", but here is what I've come to understand from the scriptures and from Ray's writings on these scriptures. As always please correct me if I am wrong, I'm just a student as we all are.
My understanding: The Great White Throne Judgment is not a one time moment in time, but a time of judgment for all mankind.
I do not see it as one moment in time but a consumation of all things pertaining to JUDEMENTS. The reason I say this, it is about the central figure in the redemptive drama - The Lord Jesus Christ in total declaration OVER mankind in a one off event. What follows are symbolic but only terms like sea of glass, actual throne, sky, the earth fading and the scene.
We can only take symbolism as far as it paints and declares a picture or imagine of Christ but we leave off saying or going as far as this is all pure symbolism when it comes to finality of events or consumational statements like prophesy in the end of this book of Revelations. We can believe in the teaching of resurrected bodies but how this translates to our new resurrected bodies is open to interpretation but NOT pure symbolism. That is: It will happen physically to those which are alive and remain at the time of the second coming.
Kat quoted a verse: 1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Thus this is future, not past or present and syncs with judgements on mankind as referred by Ray.
The lake of fire and what follows are difficult verses to contend with. These are not literal but imply purging and cleansing as all fire does in the bible = both spiritually and physical purging.
The elect are being judged now in this age (whether we can call this part of the GWT judgment or not, I'm not
sure).
Why has judgement already passed on us? I'm saying it has not - I agree with you - but why has it? Think of your answer after reading this.
It is these same elect who will judge the rest of mankind in their GWT judgment, those who live thru the end of this age and the rest who are brought back to life. This will take time - just as the judgment of the elect takes time - all of their lives.
There is no mention of our judging anyone at the Great White Throne. We and all mankind are implicated in this resurrection and are to be judged by the power, majesty, grace, love and authority of Christ! No man comes to the FATHER but by me [Jesus]! Emphasis must be placed on the coloring derivatives of this powerful word usage of judge. That's why God used GREEK language in the scriptures.
The Great White Throne is controversial in end time theology these days. Some say there are two seats of judgement. The Bema Seat and the Great White Throne. I believe there is ONE JUDGEMENT SEAT! These judgements ARE NOT to be confused with NOT just judgements*, but FINALITY and DECLARATIONS of God's SALVATION for mankind. I will draw your attention to the verse in that Chapter.
*Greek krinō in Rev 20:13
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
As you can see the meaning of judgements does NOT just imply sinful or reprobate in the body resurrection of mankind! It is also a COMPLETION.
Please don't think I am implying that anyone on this forum is teaching apostasy. We are all struggling to understand and are being guided by His Spirit. What I meant is that the churches have the cart before the horse. Judgment after the "reward". or rather the reward of being raised spirit to see Christ Jesus face to face before the judgment that must take place first. Remember the judgment IS chastening and purging.
As I've said judgments are not always punishment. It is incorrect to imply the word judgement in the bible always is harsh and punitive as shown by the Greek meaning.
Check the meaning Hebrews greek word on dealing with us as sons.
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement*, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
* paideia
pahee-di'-ah
tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.
Bless you,
Digitalwise.
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Kat quoted a verse: 1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles--when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Thus this is future, not past or present and syncs with judgements on mankind as referred by Ray.
Ray has never claimed that the elect will not be judged in the LOF, expert from his LOF Part 3 "Every man’s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
With such noble and august witnesses, does anyone deny that the repentant, converted, dedicated, believing Christian will escape being "revealed," tried," "salted," and "baptized" by FIRE? These Scriptures are undeniable! Whatever this "fire" is, it is going to be used ON EVERYONE. These four Scriptures have the believer specifically in view, but it says and includes "EVERYONE shall be salted with FIRE," and "EVERY MAN’S WORK ... shall be revealed by FIRE."
Is this "fire" in the book of Revelation DIFFERENT from the fire that tries the works of believers in the book of I Corinthians? NO. The word "fire" used in the four examples above concerning believers, is the SAME word "fire" used in the book of Revelation concerning non-believers:
STRONG’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):
(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;
(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;
(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;
(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;
(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."
I call your attention to the statement in Strong’s (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).
I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!
Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!
Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! God’s consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,
"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 2:10).
"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).
"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).
"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).
God corrects us by judging us, we are being chastised of the Lord now, before everone else, why....because He wants sons and daughters.
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our FLESH which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of SPIRITS, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His HOLINESS.
Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:9-11).
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS that ye endure; Which is a manifest token [display] of [of WHAT?] ... OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT [Gk: ‘just judging’] OF GOD!"
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
(LOF 3)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
Heidi
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Also from LOF3 concerning judgement:
The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).
Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.
There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).
Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement!
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Hi Digitalwise,
There is no mention of our judging anyone at the Great White Throne. We and all mankind are implicated in this resurrection and are to be judged by the power, majesty, grace, love and authority of Christ! No man comes to the FATHER but by me [Jesus]! Emphasis must be placed on the coloring derivatives of this powerful word usage of judge. That's why God used GREEK language in the scriptures.
1Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
v. 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
v. 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?
This is Paul stating that the Elect will judge the world and not only the world but the angels as well.
Of course Christ will judge the world, Ray teaches this all through the LOF, but He will judge the world throught the raised Saints/ELect.
Here is an excerpt where Ray teaches this in LOF no. 12
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ----------------------
THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD
The called and chosen were born to be Judges:
"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).
"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).
Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).
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Here is one excerpt of many where Ray teaches that the Elect are being judged now, the first resurretion comes before the Great White Throne judgment, which is when the rest of humanity are to be judged.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------------------
So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
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The Great White Throne is controversial in end time theology these days.
One thing we all have learned is that all theology coming from the church is not only controversial, but in error. That is why we are studying what Ray teaches and leaving that behind.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Act 17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Psa 9:7 But the LORD shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
Psa 9:8 He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.
These are just two Scripture that says Christ will judge the world.
world 1 : the earth with its inhabitants and all things upon it 2 : people in general : mankind 3 : human affairs <withdraw from the ~> 4 : universe, creation 5 : a state of existence : scene of life and action (Merriam-Webster)
The earth is 'the world,' it is the realm of human beings. This is what will be judged. Only the Elect will enter the kingdom of heaven as spirit being.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
If Christ was going to raise everybody as spirit beings, then they would be in heaven. The heavens are the domain of God and the angels - spirit beings.
This leads to a verse I have often wondered about.
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Is this referring to the evil spirits/demons that roam about in this world (causing so much trouble, for which they will be judged), having let their proper domain, which is heaven? This seems to make sense, since the messengers of God only come in the world of humans when sent on a mission.
Just some more thoughts on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Also from LOF3 concerning judgement:
The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).
Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.
There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).
Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement!
Friend Heidi,
Good commentary, helpful.
Please expound a little more on your statement about the "volunteering heart and accepting the judgments of God on our lives now in this life."
I am inclined to agree and I want to be sure that I am not taking undue credit for the acceptance or the volunteering. We understand that our choices are influenced by causes God places in our life. How does this relate to personal acceptance?
Many who have come from a "free choice" background will wonder about this view of God's way of working in us. We understand logically that God is SOVEREIGN and yet we think we are cooperating with God to some extent.
Indiana Bob
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I am tending towards Ray’s explanation of the physical resurrection of unbelievers from what he says in the following:
…those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.
That makes perfect sense to me. That said, I don’t believe Ezekiel 37 can be used to substantiate this. (And yes, what I say below is only my interpretation, just as Marques and Joe have their interpretation, so take it as you will).
Let me begin by asking, does anyone here believe that the things spoken of in Revelation are literal events that John was seeing? Well, of course not, because:
1. John was seeing a vision while being in the Spirit
2. it is told to us that the revelation is signified, that is, told in signs and symbols, by Jesus to his servant John
Now, if we had not been informed that the book had been signified, would anyone here still believe that the great whore was literally a gaudily dressed woman prancing around the earth on a great red dragon, or for that matter, that the great seven headed beast was literally a great monster with seven heads and ten horns occasionally rising up out of the ocean like Nessie at Loch Ness? I’ll take a chance and say no. You’d probably still believe these images were symbolic or metaphoric simply because it said that John was in the Spirit seeing these things in vision.
So then why are some taking Ezekiel 37, where the chapter clearly begins…
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD…,
…to be not symbolic or metaphoric, but something literal, as in literal bodies being resurrected from the earth? Yes, God does say He will bring them up out of their graves, but when we first see these bones they're not in graves, but lying all jumbled together in a valley. What valley could this be? Perhaps the valley of the shadow of death? What I mean is: true, there are no “spiritual matches” as Marques said for tendons and muscles and such being put onto bones anywhere else in Scripture, but do "spiritual matches" have to necessarily include the exact words that are used in whatever vision one is talking about? What about "spiritual matches" that include similiar ideas or similiar visions?
What I mean is that it is not unlike God to give multiple visions or explanations to people to explain exactly the same event. So what if we read the rest of that same chapter? The latter half of Ezekiel 37 describes the Lord telling Ezekiel to take two sticks, one for the House of Judah and one for the House of Israel, and put them together to make one stick. In this way, the Lord will rejoin the whole house of Israel that was split during the time of Solomon’s son, Rehoboam, by bringing the two houses, both cut off from God and scattered throughout the nations - being essentially dead - into the land He had promised Abraham and make them one nation.
Ezekiel 37:19 Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim…even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Ezekiel 37:21ff Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (nations), whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all
This is exactly what can be seen in metaphoric language in Ezekial 37:12.
Ezekial 37:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
The kingdom of the House of Israel, which ceased to exist after God scattered them among the worldly nations after the Assyrian captivity and gave them a writ of divorce, was to be brought back together with the kingdom of the House of Judah, which mostly disappeared after the Babylonian captivity and then ceased to exist totally after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and become one nation again as it was under the reign of the blessed king David. This time they would have the Christ as their king, who is symbolized in this passage by David.
Ezekiel 37:24-25 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd…and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Now, if we look in the chapter before, chapter 36, we have another description of this same event.
Ezekiel 36:24ff For I will take you from among the heathen (nations), and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
The whole nation of Israel was dead, spiritually dead as is described by the heart of stone. But the Lord would revive them spiritually by giving them a heart of flesh, and the entire nation would be resurrected when God would bring them back into the land that God had promised their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In fact, God describes this resurrection of national Israel in verse 35-36.
Ezekiel 36:35ff And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen (nations) that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
Has any of this happened yet? I don’t think so. Anyone who says that the nation of Israel founded in 1948 is absolute fulfillment of these visions given to Ezekiel hasn’t really read them very well. Hardly any of the Jewish people in Palestine accept Jesus as their Messiah so therefore their hearts are still as stony as the hearts of the Pharisees in the first century.
However, I do think that the process has started, and it started at the first appearing of our Lord on the earth. Here is what Jesus says in John 5:25.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The dead He's talking about here aren't physically dead people, but spiritually dead people. The words of Jesus were, even at that time, and are, continuing even to today, resurrecting the spiritually dead with hearts of stone and replacing them with hearts of flesh, able to see and understand what God is doing with His chosen people and with all the nations of the earth.
Ezekiel 37 is a description of the resurrection of the nation of Israel to the land promised to them (the New Jerusalem?) sometime before, during, after (I don’t know) the return of our Lord, not a description of the individual resurrection of people at the last day to reward and judgment. Yes, if we look at Ezekiel 37:1-14 all by themselves, it’s easy to come up with the latter explanation. But when taken along with the rest of what God is showing Ezekiel, I think that that explanation has a few flaws.
God bless,
Eric
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…to be not symbolic or metaphoric, but something literal, as in literal bodies being resurrected from the earth? Yes, God does say He will bring them up out of their graves, but when we first see these bones they're not in graves, but lying all jumbled together in a valley. What valley could this be? Perhaps the valley of the shadow of death? What I mean is: true, there are no “spiritual matches” as Marques said for tendons and muscles and such being put onto bones anywhere else in Scripture, but do "spiritual matches" have to necessarily include the exact words that are used in whatever vision one is talking about? What about "spiritual matches" that include similiar ideas or similiar visions?
Eric
Excellent point Eric and I agree completely with the scriptures and how they state Ezekial was seeing a vision. ;)
I looked at the muscles & tendons being put back on as literal they way Ray described the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Abraham was in the parable but he still represented Abraham. That's how I looked at this vision: muscles and tendons represent muscles and tendons though the vision is not about those particular bones in the vision but the House of Israel as Lazarus and the rich man did not mean a literal Lazarus and rich man. But I understand completely where you're coming from.
Thanks,
Marques
P.S. Just had a thought...when all of Israel is to be resurrected, they would ALL be in physical bodies as they have yet to accept Jesus as the messiah. Even the OT saints as grace came through Jesus. So like Eric pointed out, the vision is concerning the house of Israel but they would have to be in physical bodies to be made perfect through US. Very interesting...
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Hi Eric, you said:
I am tending towards Ray’s explanation of the physical resurrection of unbelievers from what he says in the following:
…those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies.
However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?
So, it seems to me that Ray's point here is moot. (However, this does beg the question then...does the second resurrection in fact take place at the END of the 1000 Year Reign after all?)
Could it be that the 1000 Year Reign is a period of judgment for the NATIONS (a macro judgment, if you will) and the Lake of Fire at the end is the judgement of each individual (a micro judgment)?
I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
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However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?
1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell [hades; grave] shall not prevail against it
To die first is spiritual as not all will sleep; not all will be in hades/grave
So, it seems to me that Ray's point here is moot. (However, this does beg the question then...does the second resurrection in fact take place at the END of the 1000 Year Reign after all?)
Please read LOF Pt. 16-D5 http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm). Also making a statement that Ray's statement is 'moot' begins to cross into debating with what we all have learned here at bible-truths and breaking the forum rules. This is how debates, arguments, and eventual defections start. Just saying, thread carefully. ;)
Could it be that the 1000 Year Reign is a period of judgment for the NATIONS (a macro judgment, if you will) and the Lake of Fire at the end is the judgement of each individual (a micro judgment)?
Scriptures? Where is the shadow/type from the OT? God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. What Israel physically went through, we go through spiritually.
I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
As with Abraham in the Lazarus and the Rich man parable, Abraham represented Abraham. Tendons & muscles could very well represent tendons & muscles even though it is a vision.
There has yet to be any scriptures posted in support of the carnal/wicked receiving spiritual bodies. 4 pages long and still no scripture. We also are not making any progress between the 2 different points of view. We may need to let this one go ladies and gentlemen....I'm out. :)
Marques
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However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet, therefore will not BE in judgement at that time. They have to die first, do they not?
This is my explanation. Perhaps this will help.
Here is the verse you’re referring to:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Peter speaks of this judgment in I Peter.
I Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Peter said judgment must begin at the house of God, and went on to say that it begins with ‘us,’ the chosen.
Jesus says in Luke:
Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Ray goes to great lengths to prove that this fire is the judgment that Peter is referring to in his first epistle. Look even at the verses right before verse 49 to understand that, in fact, Jesus is talking about judgment.
Luke 12:47ff And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
So if that is true, than by what you’re saying, Peter, Paul and the rest of the apostles, prior to them going into all the world with the Holy Spirit, must have physically died and been physically resurrected to face the judgment that Peter said must begin with ‘us’ and Jesus said was already in the world.
But we know that’s not the case. Peter, Paul and many of the apostles physically died after saying and writing all these things. So what does it mean? It means that they died in some form or fashion before they entered the judgment which they were then experiencing.
The verse in Hebrews 9:27 is not the end of the thought. The writer (perhaps Paul) goes on to say:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This is one of those “as this is true, so this is true” statements. So what is said in verse 27 must have something to do with verse 28. Would it be too out of reach to say that we participate in His death by dying with Him once in Baptism by the Holy Spirit just as He died once for us on the cross? This baptism is not by water, but by the Holy Spirit; a lot of people have been baptized in water and not been truly baptized by the Holy Spirit as evidenced by their thoughts and actions. But once those chosen by God die through baptism by the Holy Spirit, they are ready to be judged, just as the apostles were judged after being baptized by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
Romans 6:4ff Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Physical death is just a product of what we are, flesh. Unless acted against by God, it will happen to everyone, even those who have been chosen, because we are all flesh. It even happened to Jesus, because He took our likeness as a flesh and blood human being.
But the way I see it, everyone, whether now or in the future after the return of Christ, must participate in the death of Jesus by being baptized with the Holy Spirit before they can experience judgment. We will know that those who have died physically in Christ as well as those who are physically alive in Christ when He comes, will have already been through judgment because they will be resurrected with or be changed to have the kind of body that Paul describes in I Corinthians.
I Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
All unbelievers and those who are not chosen who either are raised from physical life or live into the age to come and the reign of Jesus on the earth with physical bodies will have to accept Jesus by entering into His death through baptism of the Holy Spirit. It may be easier for those in the age to come to accept Christ as their Savior since He will be right there for all to see, but as Ray has somewhere written (not sure where), just because someone accepts Christ by having the Holy Spirit enter their heart doesn’t mean that judgment, chastisement, and punishment disappears. And once their judgment is complete, they will also be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Does that make any kind of sense?
God bless,
Eric
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Hi Jerreye,
However, the scriptures tell us that men are appointed to DIE ONCE...THEN the judgement. The people who "survive the conclusion of this eon" have not died once yet,
Okay here is another perspective to consider.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This Scripture states "anyone," so I take that to mean all people that have lived, except the Elect will be cast into the lake of fire/judgment. Now that must mean those that are still living will have to stand before Christ and give account with the rest of humanity.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
v. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
And there is this Scripture that says no one can see God and live.
Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
So you can see where I'm going with this, it looks like all will die once before the judgment. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but just what I see in these Scripture.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Here's a quick verse that may be of some help:
I Cor. 1:28-29 and the base things of the world, and the things despised did God choose, and the things that are not, that the things that are He may make useless -- that no flesh may glory before Him;
If no flesh is to glory before him, how can unbelieviers and those not chosen be raised at His coming as Paul says 'in glory?'
Something to think about.
God bless,
Eric
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Hi Eric: You said:
So if that is true, than by what you’re saying, Peter, Paul and the rest of the apostles, prior to them going into all the world with the Holy Spirit, must have physically died and been physically resurrected to face the judgment that Peter said must begin with ‘us’ and Jesus said was already in the world.
This is not what I am saying :) They in fact DID die. In fact they died DAILY -- to themselves. Are we as believers not BURIED into His Death? This IS their/our first death. Since we DO die daily in Christ and are BURIED with Him IN death (yet even though we LIVE), we as believers are now being judged.
The "wicked" who survive the end of this age have not died at all, neither physically nor to themselves. See what I mean?
Hi Kat,
As for this passage you gave:
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
I believe this to mean that since God wants to be the God of the dead and the living, He will have to resurrect them, as He promised to do. It says He is NOT the God of the dead, so in order to BE the God Of the dead, He will have to resurrect them to life. This is how I see it.
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living.
As for this one:
Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
Perhaps this is talking of the Father? After all, MANY "saw" Christ Himself as the Risen Savior and DID in fact live. Saul saw Jesus and lived.
At any rate, I appreciate all your input and will respect all of your opinions. I think that this is a topic that we simply will not fully know for sure until we witness it.
I love you all :)
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God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
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If no flesh is to glory before him, how can unbelieviers and those not chosen be raised at His coming as Paul says 'in glory?'
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
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I absolutely agree with you that Ezekiel 37 is a vision (and/or parable) and not to be taken literally.
On what scriptural authority? Isn't prophecy also spiritual?
Is the following not to be taken literally either?
Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Was this not fulfilled in the physical?
Joe
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Hi Folks,
This has veered into too many topics, anyone and everyone is invited to start another thread that relates to your particular point of interest but it has become too convoluted to keep track of, a moderators nightmare! ;)
Joe