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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on July 11, 2007, 04:29:51 PM

Title: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 11, 2007, 04:29:51 PM

 

Christendom teaches its following to do this and they will get that. Believe this and then they should expect to receive that. Behave this way and then you will get your way. Think and say this and you will get such and such.

Ray teaches : SOMETIMES MAN’S GREATER SIN IS TRYING TO BE HOLY

The kind of teaching that comes out of Babylon repeatedly tries to keep, hold or put and position man in the centre of his universe. The denial that the consequences of our lives are in Gods discretion not our own teaches man that he is God. Such teachings falsely assume that  man holds the reigns over his destiny. These teachings encourage followers to believe if they do what they are told then they can expect the rewards and this encourages a spirit of entitlement and FALSE EXPECTATIONS while denying Christ and HIS Work in us.

God is not  a slot machine that holds out the promise to win on the basis of endurance to stay in such a game of error. God looks upon the heart and motives not the outward appearances, nice words and feel good actions.

Ray teaches : Maybe it is about time some of you started to feel a little anger toward all the spiritual swill and filth that is merchandised and peddled to the world in the name of Christianity! For those few, however, who are teaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, GOD BLESS YOU ONE AND ALL!http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

For me the fruit of the Spirit is without motive and is rather the consequence of Christ’s work in us. For me this came across clearly from the latest audio Bible Study given by Ray.

Don't you find that there is a leaning towards appearing holy and a fear to sound or behave as Christ did towards those He insulted and offended? Who would say that the Spirit of Christ and the fruit of His Spirit did NOT show when he upbraided the hypocrites and snakes of His generation? Or is it Love to rebuke and offend the comfort zones of error and deception with stark electric sarcasm?

I believe there are two ways to see Love. The right way and the wrong way. The lovey dovey Jesus Christ is not the demeanour in which He clothes those who overcome and who will rule with a rod of iron: as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers, even as I received of my Father...says Christ....Rev2:27

Peace to you

Arcturus :)


Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: YellowStone on July 11, 2007, 05:05:43 PM
Arcturus, please know that I do not wish to offend you, but I would like to add a little to your thoughtful post. :)

I quote you:  "Ray teaches : SOMETIMES MAN’S GREATER SIN IS TRYING TO BE HOLY"

Which is perfectly true, but by whose will are they given to try? I believe that man is but clay beneath the potters hand and contrary to man's given belief, were and are powerless to change until God moves one to do so.

I agree also with your next paragraph, the teaching that does come out of Babylon IS counter productive and yes: "The denial that the consequences of our lives are in Gods discretion not our own teaches man that he is God." But again are the same only repeating what they were given to hear, see by God himself?

Does God really need to look at anyones heart, to see hidden motives? I had always believed this also, but then is one free to walk this earth and collect motives unbeknown to God? Well I will answer my own question, not according to my understanding. Motives are God given and are not for him to learn or discover, BUT for us. I believe every opportunity given is an opportunity to 'test' the motives that we feel are 'our own'. What is it that God has given one the opportunity to learn, for I feel our eyes and ears are opened. :)

Phl 4:6 - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God

I know what Ray is saying when he says: "Maybe it is about time some of you started to feel a little anger toward ....." Yet, I am not sure that anyone can feel anything until God intends it to be felt. What I mean is, can I choose to be angry when God has given me to be complacent? Or similarly, feel love when God wants (demands) Anger?

Please understand that I agree with all that you are saying: But don't you think as I whole heartedly believe, that all that is, was and will be, .....is, was and will be of God and God alone. I am not saying that God is evil, for who could say that of him, yet has a single word that has ever been heard, been spoken without his instruction? (molding) I know that I cannot direct my steps (Jer 10:23) or by a single thought change anything (Mat 6:27.) I am nothing without him and I have nothing, even my faith, love and trust in Him are gifts from Him through his Spirit.

I fully realize that I might be 100% wrong on all that I have stated. If so, please know and understand that I am willing to stand correction. :)

Yours with Love in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: aktikt on July 11, 2007, 06:54:09 PM
Darren,

All of what your saying is true.  That is, God is totally sovereign.  Nevertheless, Jesus still upbraided and used harsh sarcasm on the hypocrites.  My question to you would be, why?

Josh
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: YellowStone on July 11, 2007, 07:03:03 PM
Hi Josh,

Hey, like I said: Everything is was and will be for our instruction :)

We must learn why Christ used such demur and in doing so, learn also when. Fortunantly, this too is of God and he will instruct us through his Spirit according to his time.

I am glad that you feel that my post is truthful. I am grateful.

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: skydreamers on July 11, 2007, 07:53:46 PM
Quote
Don't you find that there is a leaning towards appearing holy and a fear to sound or behave as Christ did towards those He insulted and offended? Who would say that the Spirit of Christ and the fruit of His Spirit did NOT show when he upbraided the hypocrites and snakes of His generation? Or is it Love to rebuke and offend the comfort zones of error and deception with stark electric sarcasm?

Hi Arcturus,

I think I understand what you are saying.  In my experience in the church, there were certainly some who you could tell, "wanted" to appear holy, and then some who "thought" they were holier than others...It was these very people who had no problem "upbraiding" the rest of us, except they were doing so with their limited understanding...so the Spirit of Christ, in my opinion certainly wasn't on them. 

I remember when I was first baptized (which now seems a lifetime ago).  I was very happy and peaceful and was being greeted by church members, most of whom were very kind.  At the time, Christianity was all new to me...I was not yet bombarded with the "do's and don't".  Well, the church denomination I attended, frowned upon jewellry, makeup etc...and I at the time had several piercings and rings...etc etc....one woman in the lineup made a derogatory comment about this, not even to my face, but loud enough so I could hear it....I was embarrassed and instantly felt out of place.  I had not meant to offend, but I just didn't know, and I was just being me.  But I never once took off my jewellry, makeup etc. for anybody or any church...I didn't think it had anything to do with my love for Jesus.  (Not to mention that I am of the non-conformist type anyways).  But it was this type of attitude within the church that continually made me somehow question myself within, that perhaps I did somehow need to "clean" myself up for Jesus...

But all those people, congregation and pastors alike, were not speaking from a knowledge of the truth, and thus had no authority to be teaching, let alone "upbraiding" anyone.  Now, here I am, away from all of that, still feeling like the same unclean sinner that I always was, but now KNOWING that it is not I that needs to clean myself up, but Jesus who will perform that through me...so I continue to strive but from a different understanding and motivation.  That's how Ray's teaching has affected me so differently, because when it's the truth, it rings of "authority", as it was with Jesus...

And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
Matthew 7:28-29

So Jesus was able in complete truth and with complete authority to say whatever he needed to, whether with soft words or with sarcasm....he's in a completely different league than any of us!  I respect Ray and can see he speaks with passion.  And I know he has said we should try to "be like" Jesus.  But personally, I am no where near the spiritual maturity that Ray has, so I just wouldn't dare to speak with the same kind of "authority" that Jesus had.  So when Ray says, "Maybe it is about time some of you started to feel a little anger toward .....", I can't muster it because I fear I have yet too much carnality that would get in the way.

Like Darren says:

Quote
Yet, I am not sure that anyone can feel anything until God intends it to be felt. What I mean is, can I choose to be angry when God has given me to be complacent? Or similarly, feel love when God wants (demands) Anger?

That's pretty much where I'm at.

And that's okay.

Because that's where God wants me. ;)

Peace,
Diana
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: aktikt on July 11, 2007, 08:54:08 PM
I just wanted to add.  I think many of us, if not all, know what it's like to be a hypocrite.  I know I was a huge hypocrite / pharisee.  I like to think I'm less of a hypocrite/pharisee now.  I think Jesus used harsh circumstances and pain and suffering on me to change some of my hypocritical ways.  I think this is exactly what we see with His actions towards the pharisees. 

Josh

Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 14, 2007, 10:30:02 AM
Arcturus, please know that I do not wish to offend you, but I would like to add a little to your thoughtful post. 

I quote you:  "Ray teaches : SOMETIMES MAN’S GREATER SIN IS TRYING TO BE HOLY"

Which is perfectly true, but by whose will are they given to try?

Darren, that question for me, aims the error/fault/blame/excuse...AT GOD! Gods WILL is NOT for us to be evil. Gods PLAN is that we experience evil and through such that we be humbled and trained into His image.

I believe that man is but clay beneath the potters hand and contrary to man's given belief, were and are powerless to change until God moves one to do so.

 Do you see that comment can be interpreted to again lead to passing ACCOUNTABILITY ONTO GOD for our evil actions, deeds and thoughts! That is Blasphemy! WE are ACCOUNTABLE.   

Rom 14 : 12 EVERYONE of us shall give an ACCOUNT of himself to God. God will not give account for us to Himself. We are not Gods master. Only Babylon teaches, believes and follows such nonsense.

It would be expedient, that is if this is your view, that you change/repent and move away from such false teachings. If your planned answer to God is going to be the same one you posted here, your account to God is that you are powerless to change and that it was up to God to change you. God might just answer you back about your awareness of I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me![/color]

What I am pointing out Darren, is that we are NOT ROBOTS! We are thinking feeling intelligent human beings. Shrugging off accountability is a dangerous attitude. If that is what you are doing then I exhort and warn you to change. If this is not the case with you.... ;D 8) then great! :)

I agree also with your next paragraph, the teaching that does come out of Babylon IS counter productive and yes: "The denial that the consequences of our lives are in Gods discretion not our own teaches man that he is God." But again are the same only repeating what they were given to hear, see by God himself?

NO WAYS !!!….Read Romans 1 again!

25…because THEY EXHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD for a lie ( THEY DID THIS NOT GOD)…and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen! 32. Though THEY ARE FULLY AWARE OF GOD’S RIGHTEOUS DECREE that those who do such things deserve to die, they do not only do them themselves bu APPROVE AND APLAUD OTHERS WHO PRACTICE THEM.

Does God really need to look at anyones heart, to see hidden motives? I had always believed this also, but then is one free to walk this earth and collect motives unbeknown to God? Well I will answer my own question, not according to my understanding.

Motives are God given

Are you SURE about that? MOTIVES are from GOD? What about the motive to blow up the twin towers…is THAT from God? What about the motive to defraud and swindle ones neighbour. Is that FROM GOD? I think that thinking is blasphemy! Is blasphemy from God? Motives are from the heart. The heart is from God. The heart is wicked and the motives that arise out of it are from the willfulness and foolishness of man acting out his own ways thoughts and plans. God gives some the opportunity to act out their folly and evilness and some find that their desire to do evil is prevented. You want to commit suicide but just can not do it. You want to kill the murderer who raped your daughter but just can not do it for real. We could all have been Adolf Hitler given the opportunity.  

and are not for him to learn or discover, BUT for us.

God decides who to chastise and give repentance to yes. God decides who to call and choose, not us.

 I believe every opportunity given is an opportunity to 'test' the motives that we feel are 'our own'.

Yes. This follows upon taking the beam out of ones own eye and as Paul taught.judging oneself.

What is it that God has given one the opportunity to learn, for I feel our eyes and ears are opened. 

Phl 4:6 - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God

I know what Ray is saying when he says: "Maybe it is about time some of you started to feel a little anger toward ....." Yet, I am not sure that anyone can feel anything until God intends it to be felt.

Ever felt paralysed? No feeling is a feeling too!

What I mean is, can I choose to be angry when God has given me to be complacent? Or similarly, feel love when God wants (demands) Anger?

I do not think God demands anything. He is not a circus trainer. He observes us as we move from loving evil to hating it and God gives the circumstances that surround this maturing process to some but not to others. Some do not want to grow up into the image of Christ and others want to hold onto their idols of their hearts at all costs unto death. God hardens the hearts of some and softens others but we respond to His training and we respond in accord to how we are as God is making us. This process to some will be visible and to others invisible. Some think they are just dandy in Gods eyes and others are more realistic about who God the Great I AM really is and how we shape up next to His Supreme Sovereignty. After all, He desires that we know Him.  

Please understand that I agree with all that you are saying: But don't you think as I whole heartedly believe, that all that is, was and will be, .....is, was and will be of God and God alone.
You are mixing up the issue. Of course God will be all in all and all is of God even evil but BUT God has a purpose and a will and a plan and these are not the same things just like eternal is not the same as immortal and responsible is not the same as accountable.

I am not saying that God is evil, for who could say that of him,

But that is exactly what you are saying when you shift accountability for our evil hearts onto God. God is responsible yes, but, BUT WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE.

yet has a single word that has ever been heard, been spoken without his instruction?

Of course there have been words heard, spoken and professed WITHOUT Gods instruction. The OT is full of examples!

(molding) I know that I cannot direct my steps (Jer 10:23) or by a single thought change anything (Mat 6:27.)

God is the Author and finisher of FAITH. We are the authors and finishers of our wicked ways. God has no part in motives that act out executions with blunt rusty knives decapitating innocent heads.  
I am nothing without him and I have nothing, even my faith, love and trust in Him are gifts from Him through his Spirit.

ALL good things are from God. Amen to that!
I fully realize that I might be 100% wrong on all that I have stated. If so, please know and understand that I am willing to stand correction. 

Yours with Love in Christ,
Darren

Rodger

What you say, for me,  shows that interior circumstances that exist within the inner landscape of our souls are also being encouraged by our God. HE  gives us our joy.   

Ecc 3: 13 And also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labour – it is a gift from God.

Job 8 : 21 HE will yet fill your mouth with laughter and your lips with youthful shouting.  

Josh your question and observation is well made. The scriptures say that the experiences of evil are to humble us. These experiences are not random or uncaused. They are by design of God in consequence to our leanings either towards godly living or riotous evil.

Thank you for your testimony.

Diana

We should not counterfeit our feelings. Or act out how we think we should feel. Rather we should discern if we are luke warm and why. We should heed the words in Cor 3:6 GOD Who also MAKES US COMPETENT DISPENSERS OF A NEW COVENANT, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter is killing, yet the spirit is vivifying, giving life.

If we are not yet competent, our aim should surely be to become so!  For we should move from the applause of men to the applause of God. I know this is a process but how can any know that such a process exists if it is not articulated and presented?

I have always leaned towards extending the proverbial “benefit of the doubt” towards theologians and their followers and have moved out of this grey area into accepting, as appalling as it is, that Church leaders and the so called men of the cloth, KNOW BETTER but still mislead and wave aside the Truth.

As Ray discloses of his spirit : “ I marvel that MORE PEOPLE are not totally EMBARASED  by the way the world of Christendom…peddles the Word of God… http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

I urge us to question why that is if any be among the tolerance keepers towards the evil we are expected to resist, expose and deny.

Tolerance of the wolves is cruelty to the sheep! All will be accountable and our deeds will be tested as with fire. I simply warn, exhort and encourage non to be among those who loose their reward. That is my motive! ;D :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Dean Peterman on July 14, 2007, 12:22:07 PM
Dear friends,

This is a difficult but helpful thread.  My head is spinning trying to figure all of this out.  My own understanding of what Ray says is that Darren understanding is very accurate.  Darren, my friend, to me, your post was very helpful.  One of the confusing things for me in trying to understand this concept of free will is how someone can be speaking one moment as if there is no free will and then speaking the next moment as if they and everyone else has free will.  Darren, if your understanding is not correct, and I think it is, then I am totally confused.  I think I will go back and re-read Ray's article on this subject.  Thanks again Darren.  What you said made alot of sense to me.  Arcturus, please be careful about what you say on this subject.  You may be inadvertently saying something you will regret later.  I have read Ray's article on the Twin Towers and intend to go back and re-read because I am concerned you may have contradicted what Ray has written.  Below is an e-mail I found on the subject.

Dear Ray
In the letter I sent on July 23 about freedom of choice you answered me with this reply "we are not the captains of our own destiny ... you will quit smoking when GOD DECIDES YOU WILL QUIT SMOKING and not before"
If this is true, then we ARE puppets with God pulling the strings. This means that God is in charge of all sin.
If this is so why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins if we really are not in control of sinning?
If it is true then all of those TV evangelists are preaching about hell because GOD HASN'T DECIDED TO STOP THEM YET.
All the misinterpretations of the bible that cause people to hate God's children because they are different WONT STOP UNTIL GOD DECIDES.
Ray is this what you mean is happening unknown to us? I just want to understand what you are saying. I really am not being arrogant, even though its sounds that way.
I am a Christian for sixty years. For the past two years I have been researching past Christian history. It puts a new outlook on what I have read. I have always blamed mankind for the Spanish inquisition, slavery, white man slaughtering the American Indians, etc.

I just don't want to believe they were all GODS DECISIONS. Do you understand what Ii am trying to say Ray?
Very sincerely,
Grace
[Ray Replies]
Dear Grace:

Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual.  Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.

YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!
Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not.  It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.

Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"? 

The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!

Sincerely,

Ray



Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 14, 2007, 02:24:49 PM
Dear friends,

This is a difficult but helpful thread.  My head is spinning trying to figure all of this out.  My own understanding of what Ray says is that Darren understanding is very accurate.  Darren, my friend, to me, your post was very helpful.  One of the confusing things for me in trying to understand this concept of free will is how someone can be speaking one moment as if there is no free will and then speaking the next moment as if they and everyone else has free will.


Now who exactly does what you suggest Dean…that is one moment speaking as if there is free will and in the next speaking as if there is non? Who might you be referring to?

Rom 14:11,12 For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God…Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God”

Would you be referring to the Scriptures perhaps?  Would you be refering to the Author of the Scriptures? Is rendering an ACCOUNT a contradiction to you perhaps that upsets the acceptability of the fact that God is Sovereign? Of course not! You point your finger at me and state that YOU are AFRAID that I have contradicted Ray. You are so afraid for me you are going to find out where I have done such a thing that you say I will regret and YOU WILL BE THE ONE TO PROVE IT!

GO FOR IT DEAN! RUN….. But before you go,…JUST BEFORE YOU GO… be warned against being so swift to let loose discord. God hates false witness and it is abominable that you should publish that your motive to reread the Twin Towers is to find where you think I am contradicting Ray. WOW! Shouldn't that embarrass you????

 http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html




….    Although dictionaries partly define responsibility as accountability; and accountability as responsibility, that is not their only usage.  Here is how I mean to use the two terms taken from my first paper ever posted on bibletruths.com--Kenney's sermon on Hell and Africans:

    RESPONSIBILITY

    Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

    We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.

    The problem with your sermon, Dr. Kennedy, is that you want to present God as a "fair" God. You know most men have lived and died never knowing God or even hearing His Name, so you try to relieve God of His responsibility for His creatures. You know that there is "no other name under Heaven by which man must be saved." You do know that, don't you? I'm betting that you do.

    But God doesn't need to be relieved of His responsibility.

    Knowing that billions of heathens have lived and died, never hearing that Name or knowing the true God, (and since you have all these man-made doctrines that clash with the Word of God), you try to "get God off the hook." And so you place the burden of responsibility for being saved on man's shoulders. God is not "on the hook." He doesn't need your help, my help, a missionary's help, or anybody else's help to save His children. God does use teachers, pastors, etc. to acquaint people with His Word. But this is a privilege for us, not a necessity for God. Remember the Scripture, that God can "raise up stones" if needed. The Scriptures tell us that all men everywhere are accountable to God, not responsible:

    "For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom [God] we are accountable" (Heb. 4:12-13).

    Even the King James Version, with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word "responsible" or "responsibility."

    Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." Things like: "you're responsible for going to hell" or "it's your responsibility to accept Christ" or "the age of responsibility" or "everyone is responsible for his or her deeds." Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture.

    When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

    "Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

    "For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

    Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

    The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

    " ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

    The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

    Hope this helps you,

    God be with you,

    Ray


Oh while you are at trying to find your evidence to proove I contradict Ray...be sure to study this first. It just may save you from making a public fool of yourself.  What a good girl I am aren't I? :D I am trying to help you and you are trying to smack me! And you are the one who says you do not agree 100% with Ray!!!!SCRAM Dean...your comment and threats are a hinderance to me and a stumbling block.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html

Arcturus
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: YellowStone on July 14, 2007, 03:15:18 PM
Hi Arcturus,

Just a little note, I never once said that God was accountable, responsible yes, but accountable no.

So as God is responsible for everything, including his dragging those He calls to him, everything and I mean EVERYTHING  :D that confronts us in the life is for our instruction. I trust God completely and I thank Him always for all that he has given me and the patience He has shown. Oh, I will be accountable for much I am sure, but I know that my thoughts CANNOT in anyway, change anything that God has planned. :)

Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 

I am responsible for nothing, all is of Him. Prasie be to God always.

Dean, Thank you for your post. You quoted the following words of Ray and they align perfectly with my post. :)

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

I will add, if all this is NOT true, why then would God want us to trust Him? :)

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.   

It is my opinion that this is where true knowledge begins!

Love in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Dean Peterman on July 14, 2007, 04:33:47 PM
Dear Arcturus,

I ask your forgiveness for offending you.  It was not my intention.  Believe it or not it is not my desire to cause any harm to you.  I was concerned with what you were saying on this subject because I did not want you to inadvertently sound like you were contradicting Ray.  I like you Arcturus.  You seem like a wonderful person.  So I regret that I worded my post so badly.  You said some things in your post that I thought you might later regret and I did not want you to continue until you were sure that you were not contradicting Ray.  Prior to typing the word Arcturus none of my post was directed toward you.  I was speaking in general.   As I stated before I have not yet seen the truth of this teaching on free will.  However, I know that you have and I was concerned about the implications of what you were saying.  Specifically, you said, 

“Are you SURE about that? MOTIVES are from GOD? What about the motive to blow up the twin towers…is THAT from God? What about the motive to defraud and swindle ones neighbour. Is that FROM GOD? I think that thinking is blasphemy!”

Yet, this is exactly what Ray does teach.  Therefore, I wanted to stop you before you went any further.  I deeply regret offending you and can only hope you will forgive me for my misguided attempt to caution you about your words.

Sincerely,

Dean
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: ciy on July 14, 2007, 05:01:44 PM
Dean
It is great that you are seeing the truth even though you say that you do not yet believe the sovereignty of God.

You are right.   Ray teaches and the bible teaches that all is of God.  Just like Ray says, God does not allow evil to be done.  God causes it to be done for the eternal good.

If there is evil done in the city did not God do it. And as in another thread, it is all a hard teaching.

CIY
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 14, 2007, 06:07:57 PM

Hello Dean,

You present this statement I made.

“Are you SURE about that? MOTIVES are from GOD? What about the motive to blow up the twin towers…is THAT from God? What about the motive to defraud and swindle ones neighbour. Is that FROM GOD? I think that thinking is blasphemy!”

Motive - The REASON for a certain course of action, whether conscious or unconscious. Ref/English Collins Dictionary

Reason - A CAUSE  or MOTIVE. Ref/English Collins Dictionary

GRACE - Divine influence upon our hearts. (Nashville conference...Ray Smith)

As Ray notes : Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this.
(*But God does not DIRECTLY DO THIS) He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. (*HE DOES NOT DIRECTLY CAUSE THOSE CHOICES) Things like the Devil do such things. (*THINGS LIKE THE DEVIL DO SUCH THINGS)  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end. (*Brackets are my notation)

My point related to the Twin Towers that being an evil event for which God caused the circumstances and man provided with Satan, the motive.

My point is that Gods Grace is an influence for GOOD and evil is an influence for the death or harm against what is good, true, hones, just, pure, lovely and virtuous and noble.

My question to Darren was…”what about the motive to blow up the Twin Towers." Notice I did not ask about the motive to feed the poor and help the down trodden. Notice the motive I questioned.

Not all motives are Godly or of God. Some are clearly with the help of the Devil working against man and his life.   Man volunteers, likes and engages in evil until he repents. After repentance then man can begin the process to outgrow and comes to see that his heart is evil unless ruled by Christ through HIS gift of GRACE.

My question to Darren challenged a deeper discussion on the issue of Choice, Motive, Accountability and Responsibility. To what DEPTH is this teaching integrated?

We have choices, billions of them and can only ever make one. To integrate, grasp, apprehend and come to fully express this wisdom with comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God…For ME  is the beginning of Wisdom. It is not a slight of ease for the carnal mind to apprehend the Wisdom of God, because this truth is spiritual and the carnal can not accept the spirit and is hostile to it.

The Forum is a great place to test our comprehension. Resistance to insight only shows lack of understanding and a need to go deeper and train longer, putting down the old man to take up the new creation in Christ.  There is much to unlearn. More than 2000 years of Babylonian teaching. It is a huge field!

Thank you Rodger for your contribution to this discussion.  Your observations are so necessary to all of us who have been crippled into belief systems that have been indoctrinated into our hearts. We all have to take up our beds and walk. That instruction is from Christ to those who hear and know the call  to get up and walk out of Babylon. It is simple but not easy.

Dean, in the comfort and solstice that Rodger exhorts of us let me add, I appreciate your apology and accept your explanation. Thank you. I hope my clarification is likewise acceptable to you. Please let me know.

Being called to explain/clarify or expand upon our statements is something we should all be prepared to do. And when tested we should all be able to rise to the challenge to stand...stand...stand...

Peace to you

Arcturus :)




 
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Dean Peterman on July 14, 2007, 06:52:22 PM
Dear Arcturus,

Thank you for clarifying your post.  When I read your earlier post I became concerned because in my mind (someone who doesn't understand this teaching on free will yet) it sounded like you were contradicting Ray.  Of course, that was not your intention.  In fact, to be totally honest, my carnal mind thought, wow, I guess Ray is wrong about free will, Arcturus just blew this whole no free will thing away.  Then I stopped myself and thought, no, I don't think that is what Arcturus is saying.  So I went and found that e-mail so I could show it to you.  Unfortunately, I presented myself very badly and made it seem like I was out to expose you.  It was never my intention to come off like that.  So thank you for accepting my apology.  This is definitely a deep subject.

Sincerely,

Dean
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: sansmile on July 14, 2007, 07:32:36 PM
This has been quite confusing, as you all really are saying the same thing. I understand comletely that we have no free will, and i thank God for that revealing. Acting on lust, of the flesh, of the eye or on pride of life ..... is SIN

(1Jo 2:16)  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

So, we will be accountable for acting on those lusts, giving in to the flesh instead of the spirit. That is WHY we are held accountable. Yes, God is responsible for putting those choices in front of us and for ALLOWING satan to tempt us..but we, not being robots and having logical thought and KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, do choose  one or other of the choices He puts in front of us. Why are we held accountable??  I see it as that He is creatING sons and daughters.......His family, through chastening (judgement begins at the house of God) knowledge of sin, knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. ONLY with Him in us can we OVERCOME and by OVERCOMING (sin) WILL we become worthy to rule with Him. He tests and also guides us to the right choice through LOVE, through chastening, through trials and the more we come to see that, the more we see that we CANNOT overcome without Him and that HIS WILL BE DONE. By recognising that we need Him to help us overcome and totaly submit to His will........ creates Sons of God. But only if we run the race obediently and faithfully.

God Bless
Sandie
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: ciy on July 14, 2007, 07:44:42 PM
It is a great truth that is revealed to us.  It is a part of the puzzle that plays a part in setting one free.  The fact that God creates and causes evil is a truth that can take away the bindings of this world.  It makes you realize why Paul said that he did not look back but pressed on forward for that mark set before him.  No condemnation of the sins of the past keep pressing toward that mark as your mind is transformed over the long process into the mind of Christ.

Ray states it well in the following.

GOD CAUSES EVIL IN THE CITY

Let’s take a close look at that last Scripture in our list:

“…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

There’s the question; what’s the answer? The answer from all Christendom is “Yes.” “Yes” there shall be all kinds of evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it. In fact, according to their teaching, the Lord does no evil in any city, ever. World famous teacher/preacher/theologian/author, Billy Graham said before a packed house in the National Cathedral, that GOD DOES    NOT CREATE EVIL.  But what saith the Scriptures (Amos 3:4-6):

“Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Answer: NO!

“Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has not prey?"

Answer: NO!

“Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?"

Answer: NO!

“Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin [baited trap] is for him?"

Answer: NO!

“Shall one take up a snare [shall a snare spring up] from the earth, and have taken [caught] nothing at all?"

Answer: NO!

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?"

Answer: NO!

“Shall there be EVIL in a city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

Answer: NO!

The Answer is “NO”!

I am now speaking to the mature only. This information is too heavy, too hard, too overwhelming for the carnal-minded person.   Have you ever wondered just where it is that the proverbial “rubber meets the road?” Well, right here is where the rubber meets the road. If you don’t accept; if you cannot accept, if you will not accept the truth of all these double-witness Scriptures presented above, then you will never understand God’s plan of salvation for the human race.

Seven times in Amos 3 God asks us a question, and SEVEN TIMES THE ANSWER IS “NO”! NO, there shall not be EVIL in a city [any city—all cities] unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT! The truth of this Scripture (along with hundreds and hundreds like it) is so powerful, so absolutely earth-shattering, that the mere fact of me quoting it and suggesting that it is a true statement, will evoke hate mail from far and wide. 

The world of Christendom will not tolerate, anyone quoting these Scriptures and then teaching that they are true and factual as to the character of our Great Creator God. They do not approve of God “creating” evil, nor do they approve of God “using” evil—even if God’s use of evil always eventuates in the GREATEST POSSIBLE ETERNAL GOOD.

It never dawns on their carnal minds for one moment that God might cause and use these unspeakable evils for a great and redeeming purpose beyond our wildest dreams or expectations. Unless we can see the plan, the purpose, the Goal of God for the human race, we will never see or be able to justify the hard, and painful, and difficult, and humanly impossible journey through evil to reach that marvelous eternal goal that God has purposed in Himself and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

God does not reproduce Himself as Sons and Daughters of God, in His Own Image and Likeness, with His own Love, Power, and Eternal Glory, by using a cookie cutter and a sheet of Styrofoam. Do we think that the Awesome Creator of the universe is little more than “sugar and spice and everything nice?” Listen: God knows all about “evil”:

“And the Lord God said, behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil…”  (Gen. 3:22).End of Ray's paper

God is awesome, and His plan is perfect.  We can imagine what this whole plan is working towards.
CIY

Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: sansmile on July 14, 2007, 07:47:51 PM
AMEN CIY AMEN

Gods peace xx

Sandie
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Robin on July 14, 2007, 08:17:57 PM
As far as change goes I am just a witness to what God has done and will do. I watch him do it and can take no credit for it. There is no boasting.

I did not seek until he called me.
I was lost until he found me.
I did not know truth until he taught me.
I did not know the beast within me until he showed me through his word and the work of his spirit.
I could not repent until he led me to repentance.
I could not make the right choices until he changed the desire of my heart.
I held onto my carnal desires until he tore them away from me.
I rebelled until he broke me.
I was sick until he healed me.
I was weak and could not endure and he strengthened me and protected me.
I did not have faith until he gave it to me.
I will not have fruit until he produces it within me.
I am spiritually blind until he opens my eyes.
I am spiritually deaf until he opens my ears.

I can do nothing on my own.
God has taken the responsibility for my salvation by sending his only son to be a sin offering for all of us.
 
I've experienced great evil.
I've committed great sin.
I've believed great lies.
I've been spiritually sick and needed a physician.
I am guilty of breaking all the commandments and guilty of all the sin that was found in Adam. I am no better than any living person on this earth.

I see being accountable as telling God the truth about who I am and agreeing with him when he points it out to me. I am accountable. I am confessing and agreeing with him.


Romans 8:37-39
 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Bradigans on July 15, 2007, 12:24:18 AM
As far as change goes I am just a witness to what God has done and will do. I watch him do it and can take no credit for it. There is no boasting.

I did not seek until he called me.
I was lost until he found me.
I did not know truth until he taught me.
I did not know the beast within me until he showed me through his word and the work of his spirit.
I could not repent until he led me to repentance.
I could not make the right choices until he changed the desire of my heart.
I held onto my carnal desires until he tore them away from me.
I rebelled until he broke me.
I was sick until he healed me.
I was weak and could not endure and he strengthened me and protected me.
I did not have faith until he gave it to me.
I will not have fruit until he produces it within me.
I am spiritually blind until he opens my eyes.
I am spiritually deaf until he opens my ears.

I can do nothing on my own.
God has taken the responsibility for my salvation by sending his only son to be a sin offering for all of us.
 
I've experienced great evil.
I've committed great sin.
I've believed great lies.
I've been spiritually sick and needed a physician.
I am guilty of breaking all the commandments and guilty of all the sin that was found in Adam. I am no better than any living person on this earth.

I see being accountable as telling God the truth about who I am and agreeing with him when he points it out to me. I am accountable. I am confessing and agreeing with him.


Romans 8:37-39
 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Amen! I had to say amen. I finally realize that I can't repent of my sins until God grants me the repentance, and i'm wretched.
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: YellowStone on July 15, 2007, 02:14:15 AM
Great post MG :)

I too will never try to side step anything.

Love,
Darren
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Robin on July 16, 2007, 12:37:29 AM
Quote
I am guilty of breaking all the commandments and guilty of all the sin that was found in Adam. I am no better than any living person on this earth.

I need to correct this with something I just learned from Ray.

I am not guilty of all the sin that was found in Adam. I am guilty of my own sin.
Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 21, 2007, 06:46:42 AM


Hello MG

To add. You observe in italics....


I did not seek until He called me.

Only God delivers from bondage. No one turns to God by his own will. It is God Who is already at work in a person's life before they ever feel the need to turn to God. LOF 15B

I was lost until he found me.

Luke 15:6 And when he gets home, he summons together his friends and his neighbours, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep which was lost.

I did not know truth until he taught me.

John 16:He will guide you into all truth, the whole full truth.

I did not know the beast within me until he showed me through his word and the work of his spirit.

And when I saw Him (in my SPIRIT) I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME (as He will upon YOU), saying unto ME (and unto YOU) FEAR NOT. (Rev. 1:10-17 )Truly: “We have seen the enemy and he is US”. LOF 14


I could not repent until he led me to repentance.

Rom 2:4….. God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repent, to change your mind and inner man to accept God’s Will.

Not only can we not deliver ourselves from sin; we cannot even truly repent of our sins by our own will. This too requires a miracle from God. LOF 15B

I could not make the right choices until he changed the desire of my heart.

2Thes 2:8 And then the lawless one, the Antichrist,  will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to and end by His appearing at His coming.

I held onto my carnal desires until he tore them away from me.

Rom 5:20 …where sin increased and abounded, grace has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded. 21 So that just as sin has reigned in death, grace might reign also through righteousness which issues in aion life through (on account of – Thayer/E.Sword ) Jesus Christ our Lord.


I rebelled until he broke me.

God must Personally remove and free (here is the cause) us from being under the “Law of sin and death” to being under the “Law of the Spirit of life in Christ”. LOF 15B

I was sick until he healed me.

Luke 17:15 Then one of them, upon seeing that he was cured, turned back, recognizing and thanking and praising God with a loud voice;

I was weak and could not endure and he strengthened me and protected me.

God takes us through such profound experiences as “war and peace” all the way down to tearing a piece of cloth and sewing it together again – “a time to rend (apart) and a time to sew (together).” LOF 15D

I did not have faith until he gave it to me.

That man cannot of his own will repent, believe, and choose good, is the correct and Scriptural truth….LOF 15D

I will not have fruit until he produces it within me.

Man is not yet created in God’s full spiritual image, but that is the process, purpose, and destiny of the human race – to finally be the very image of God Himself LOF 15C

I am spiritually blind until he opens my eyes.
I am spiritually deaf until he opens my ears.


Luke 10:23 Blessed are the eyes which see the things that you see; For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them.

I can do nothing on my own.

Only God delivers from bondage. No one turns to God by his own will. It is God Who is already at work in a person's life before they ever feel the need to turn to God. LOF 15B

God has taken the responsibility for my salvation by sending his only son to be a sin offering for all of us.

We are not our own. Jesus commands our destiny.

I've experienced great evil.
I've committed great sin.
I've believed great lies.
I've been spiritually sick and needed a physician.
I am guilty of breaking all the commandments and guilty …I am guilty of my own sin….. I am no better than any living person on this earth.


Ecc 1:13 It is an experience of evil that God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Title: Re: The lovey dovey Jesus
Post by: Robin on July 21, 2007, 03:01:16 PM
Thank you so much for taking the time to add that Arcturus.

That was encouraging to wake up and read your words this morning.

(http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/images/smilies/c017.gif)