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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Andy_MI on December 01, 2006, 06:28:27 PM
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Hi everyone,
I wanted to start a new thread on this topic so as not to hijack the thread I started to post this on.
The burdon to find the truth on this matter is on my heart lately.
I know that the bible clearly tells us that "all men will be saved."
I also do not see the same promise given to Satan and the fallen angels.
I think the answer is defining what is salvation and for whom it applies and what is reconciliation on to what and whom this applies.
It is also possible that we are not given enough information in the scripture to come to understanding in this matter.
I am curious and am seeking input on this subject, if that's ok with you all.
I would like to not have this turn into a heated debate. I'm simply trying to get others insight into this.
Here are some quotes from the other thread where I started this quest.
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Darren wrote:
Hi Andy,
Great question but impossible to answer
It would appear that if God granted salvation to Satan, then satan would not have only deceived the world, but God also.
Peter pretty much speaks of what happens to Satan
2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Note that not even the fallen angels were spared.
I hope this helps.
Thanks,
Darren
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Arcturus wrote:
Hi Andy
This should nail it for you!....Kind of puts Satan in his place the way Ray answers this e-mail.
Enjoy!
Arcturus
Hello Brother Ray,
I read one of your email response dealing with God's supremacy.On this mail you stated that God created satan, uses satan, and that Satan too, will be saved after he has done all his dirty work. God will make him repent. Is there any Scriptural basis for this view?
I must confess that I find most of your articles very interesting and your teaching thought provoking.
Thank you so much for your effort in pumping out the truth.
God bless.
Remi
London. UK
Dear Remi:
First we must understand that Satan and his ministers reside in the heavens (Eph. 12:11, "the devil....against spiritual wickedness in high [Gk; epouranios--'celestials/heaven'] and the earth (Rev. 12:9 is not a one time occurance).
[1] "That in the dispensation of the fulnesss of times he might gather together in one ALL in the Christ, both that in the heavens and that in the earth" (Eph. 1:10, Concordant Literal New Testament).
[2] "For by Him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [Satan and demons] whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers [including 'principalities and powers' of Eph. 6:12] : all things were created by Him, and for Him...And, having made peace through the blood of the His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL unto Himself; by Him, I say whethe4r they be those in earth or those in heaven" (Col. 1:16 & 20).
[3] "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in HEAVEN, and those in EARTH, and those UNDER THE EARTH. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD [I Cor. 12:3b], to the glory of God the Father" (Col. 2:9-11).
[4] "...Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29b).
[5] "For He [Jesus] must reign till He has put ALL ENEMIES [Satan is an enemy [Matt. 13:39] under His feet...that God may be ALL in All [that includes ALL God's creatures]" (I Cor. 15:25 & 28).
Etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
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Andy wrote:
Quote from: YellowStone on Today at 03:43:45 PM
Hey Andy,
Kind of shoots down my argument.........................
Thanks Arcturus for pointing that out
Love,
Darren
Not really, The verse you quote in 2 Peter is interesting in that it's the only occurance of the word Tartaroo in the new testament.
G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.
Arcturus,
Thanks for the reply.
I still don't see "salvation" applied to Satan and the fallen angels.
I do however see the reconcilation of all of creation back to God's perfect order.
I don't think that the two words (salvation and reconcilation) have the same meaning.
I would like to start a new thread to discuss this so as not to hijack this thread.
Peace,
Andy
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Hi Andy
For me salvation is to those in the first resurrection and reconciliation is for those in the White Throne Judgement into which Satan and all his evil assistants etc will be cast into the Lake of Fire....not for ever...but for correction...and in order to fulfill that every knee will bow....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Thank you for your reply.
I just hope I haven't open up a can of worms by starting this thread.
I am meditating on these verses and seeking clarity from the Lord on this whole subject.
Col 1:16 KJVR
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:20 KJVR
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The thing I notice about verse 20 is that "all things will be reconciled unto himself." "Whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
Is this saying that all of creation is going to be saved? I say it does not say all things whether in earth or in heaven will be saved but rather reconciled.
Here's the thing that's got me thinking about this.
If reconcilation is the same as salvation then the all things would include ALL THINGS.
That would include all the bugs, snakes, critters, bacteria, viruses, mosquitoes and lions and tigers and bears - OH MY! ;D
(sorry, just had a wizzard of oz flash back.)
Do you see my questioning here?
I see reconcilation is a "bringing back creation into the perfect harmony and order of our Father."
Is this accomplished by "saving all of creation?"
Just some thoughts,
Peace,
Andy
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What is salvation?, what are we saved from?
Satan does not need saving, but as with all creation he needs to be reconciled to God.
Craig
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Hi all,
What i see is that God created satan as His adversary
(1Pe 5:8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(Isa 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
But, He created evil to bring about good:
Rom 12:21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
But where satan is concerned, where does he end up.....in the lake of fire:
(Rev 20:10) And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."
along with those that didn't believe:
Rev 20:14) And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15) And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
So, as the lake of fire is Gods cleansing fire (spirit) then satan must be saved.
Sansmile (sandie)
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What is salvation?, what are we saved from?
Satan does not need saving, but as with all creation he needs to be reconciled to God.
Craig
Hi Craig,
I think Adam and all man kind are saved from sin and death probably among other things.
As far as Satan not needing salvation I would refer you to a letter to Ray and his reply:
Ray,
If Satan is not a falling angel were did his angels come from because this is confusing me. If God created Satan how he is (not a fallen angel) but a perfect adversary did he create a whole bunch of little messengers (angels) for him? Because we know angels can not sin cause if they could that would be contradicting wouldn't it?
[Ray Replies]
Jeremiah,
It nowhere says in the Scriptures that it is not possible for an angel to sin regardless of his rank. I believe that there is only ONE archangel. Arch means the number one and the HIGHEST. There can be only ONE of such rank. As Michael is an "archangel" and "Michael" means LIKE GOD, and as Jesus was called on occasion in the Old Testament the "Angel of the Lord," it follows that Michael the Archangel is referring to Christ.
Angels can and do sin. II Peter 2:4,
"For if God spares not SINNING MESSENGERS [angels], but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging..."
Angels need salvation just as mankind does.
Ray
Notice the last line of Ray's response.
Which brings me back to the question:
Is reconcilation and salvation the same thing?
Hi Sandie,
I wonder why it dosen't say that all the demons along with Satan are cast into the lake of fire?
And also I wonder if there will be anything left of Satan after he's thrown into the fire?
Is there anything good in Satan that will indure the fire?
Just rambling,
Andy
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Is reconcilation and salvation the same thing?
In my opinion.........No.
Craig
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Andy,
God says:
(Isa 40:26) Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
Evil spirits are sent by God:
(Jdg 9:23) Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
Act 19:15) And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Andy God is spiritual fire, a cleansing fire, if there was nothing to save , why cast satan in?
Just rambling, lol GB
Sansmile (sandie)
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Hi Andy,
From my Webster's Intermediate dictionary.
reconcile: to cause to give in or to accept -- make content.
salvation: the saving of a person from sin -- something that saves -- the saving from danger or evil.
Satan was created as a part of this world, he is doing what he was created to do 'sin' and I believe will be saved from his sins also.
1John 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
John 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Satan is a part of this world.
And also I wonder if there will be anything left of Satan after he's thrown into the fire?
Is there anything good in Satan that will indure the fire?
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God...
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------------------------------
It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).
There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], an which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).
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The lake of fire will be a purging and cleansing of all cast in, but it will also be a teaching experience.
Those babies that died at birth, have no knowledge at all.
What will the lake of fire do for them if not teach them of Christ and bring them to salvation.
After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also.
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out.
Do you think God would have created a being He could not save?
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
v.16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Well there's what I think.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi all,
I think the thing we have to keep in mind here is that God is responsible for the well-being of ALL of his creation. In order for God to be 100% good, which we know he is, he MUST make sure that ALL his creation (including Satan) does not suffer forever in their sin, otherwise God has failed to be 100% good. His creation (including Satan) is his accomplishment (currently a work in progress) and he will not fail to make us all (including Satan) happy/joyful/content, as he greatly desires to do, as this is his glory!
Sean
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Hi Andy
Sandy wrote : (Rev 20:15) And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
For me that answers your observation Andy :
I wonder why it dosen't say that all the demons along with Satan are cast into the lake of fire?
Anyone would include demons. They are the anyones not found written in the scroll of life to be cast into the lake of fire.
I agree with Craig. Reconciliation is not the same as salvation.
Heb 9 : 28 …Christ will appear a second time (to the first resurrection) not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin (as in the second resurrection White Throne Judgment) but to bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.
John 5 : 28 Do not be surprised and wonder at this, for the time is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice. 29 And THEY shall come out (Who are they?)….THEY who have practiced doing good will come out to the resurrection of new life, and those (who are those?)…THOSE who have done evil will be raised (raised….not saved….raised for )…for judgment, raised to meet their sentence.
After judgment, after sentencing….then they are reconciled just like a person who is sentenced in the worlds court systems for theft. They are sentenced to jail. They serve their time and after they are released back into society they are therefore reconciled back into society. Like wise so too will the White Throne be a judgment, sentence and reconciliation.
Kat your comment : After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also.
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out. I liked that one! :D
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
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Hi Kat
I am concerned that you seem to believe that babies will be in the White Throne Judgement second death. My concern is that to think this must surely be painful. How can such an awful thing happen to innocent babies?
John Hagee said something similar once where in he said anyone who has not recieved Christ will be popping up like popcorn on a hot stove and the babies that died will be there too and this is God's justice.! I am paraphrasing here. I think what he said was far worse and much more horrific.
I think having heard him say this, stuck with me as grossly mis-leading and so it stood out for me when you wrote:
Those babies that died at birth, have no knowledge at all.
What will the lake of fire do for them if not teach them of Christ and bring them to salvation.
I am NOT saying OR suggesting you have said what Hagee said. You have got much insight into the scriptures to make me think you go along with Hagee! Hagee was talking about Hell not the second death. However, Jesus does advise us to pray that we are among the worthy to stand before Him when He comes again.
Luke 21 : 36 but take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed, weighed down with giddiness and headache and nausea of self - indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to the business of this life, and lest that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose; 35. For it will come upon all who live upon the face of the entire earth. 36. Keep awake then and watch at al times, be discreet, attentive, and ready, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things taken together that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man
Kat do you really believe that little babies will go into the White Throne Judgment. Surely not!
I recall Ray wrote somewhere that the awful deaths the little ones suffer will be recompensed and they will be raised to new life in Christ and receive the opportunity to live their lives to the full as compensation. Suffer not the little one’s to come unto me…..Jesus said. So this makes me believe that the murdered aborted babies who’s lives are so cruelly cut off, will be blessed and called into new life in Christ when He comes again.! This for me is a much happier picture of God's love and justice.
I just could not let this one slip by thinking you were believing that the second death is the penalty for being aborted!…..
It is a happier thought to think they will be blessed abundantly with new life in Christ when He comes again. This makes for me, the horror of their deaths more bearable and it is simply this that I wanted to share with you because I care about you so I'd prefer that you look forward for them, to what lies in store for these little ones who have been chopped up while still in the womb or who have starved to death or died because of AIDS.
Just think….there will be so many little one’s!……You just have to also look at abortion stats!...........Jesus loves children! :D
I trust you shall take this post as a welcome to share in the joy of what is waiting for them.............
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello all,
I believe this thread is interesting enough, Will Satan be reconciled? Yes he will, Will babies be judged...Of course! unlike what many may think, Judgment is a GOOD thing, and ALL being judged will understand the NEED for judgment.
Why did Christ "sting" the pharisees with this comment?
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law,JUDGMENT, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Doesnt sound like Christ felt judgment was a bad thing?
After all this is Gods plan, it is not ours to question his methods.
ALL WILL BE JUDGED! Some will be harshly judged, and some will not.
Chris R
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Hello Chris R
As I understand this so far....some are being judged now and some will be raised to judgment at the White Throne.
Rev20 : 6 Blessed and holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but theyshall be ministers of God and Christ and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.
Does this mean for adults only? ???
Are you saying that babies will be raised to the White Throne Judgement? ???
If so then I have to re-think...again!....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Kat
I am pending edification on babies at White Throne and would appreciate any help
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
I understand your concern on this matter.
But let us consider these scripture.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Those in the first resurrection will reign andrule, and judgment was given to them.
These are the elect that endured to the end, this is there reward.
I do not believe the WT judgment is going to be terrible for everybody cast in.
Think about John the Baptist, I do not believe he will face punishment, but taught about Christ's death and resurrection and brought to salvation, probably quickly.
Those babies will have to be taught about Christ too, not be punished, for that is the only way to receive salvation.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.
The only way to enter the kingdon of God is by salvation in Christ, which these babies and people that never heard of Christ and even the prophets of the OT, all will have to go through this teaching and receiveing of the spirit of Christ, that they may enter the kingdom.
Waht do you think about this? Does it help with the idea that not all will be punished?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
Thanks for the help....
I went and searched Ray’s article on the Secret Rapture. I found that God’s saints are not appointed to His wrath or indignation.
Then this scripture came to my mind.
Is 28 : 27 For dill is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin; but dill is beaten off with a staff, and cummin with a rod by hand. 28 Does one crush bread grain? No, he does not thresh it continuously. But when he has driven his cartwheel and his horses over it, he scatters it tossing it up to the wind without having crushed it. 29 This also comes form the Lord of hosts, Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom and effectual working.
Then you said quote… : After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also.
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out. I liked that one! So does this show a gradient of judgment as perhaps indicated in Isaiah 28 above do you think?
Isaiah 26 : 9 For when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
That being the children who did not live to enjoy this training will receive it in the White Throne Judgment?
And
1 Tim 4 : 10 For this is GOOD and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have al men to be saved, and to come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth.
Am I on the right track?
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
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Getting back to the topic....
I think we need to make a distinction between the terminology of salvation and reconcilation.
Here's what Paul says:
Col 1:16 KJVR
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
God is the Creator, He did so by His own soverign will.
Notice v 20:
Col 1:20 KJVR
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Here Paul says that He has RECONCILED all things by the blood of His cross.
The "all things" of creation have also been "reconciled," and Paul defines this for us as: "having made PEACE."
In other words, reconcilation has to do with making "PEACE" and establishing harmony, as opposed to discord
and opposition.
Now concerning SALVATION
Here's what Paul says:
1Ti 4:10 KJVR
(10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
1Ti 2:4 KJVR
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
He says nothing about saving Satan or his demons.
Here's what Paul says about JUSTIFICATION
Rom 5:16 NKJV
(16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
He says nothing about justifying Satan and his demons.
Here's what John says about PROPITIATION
1Jo 2:2 KJVR
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He is talking about people, the world of mankind, as distinct from us as believers.
He does not say that Christ became the propitiation for Satan and his demons.
Here's what Paul says about RESURRECTION
1Co 15:22-23 KJVR
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The context shows clearly that he is talking about mankind.
He says nothing about resurrecting Satan and his demons.
Each of these terms has a different meaning and application, and while they are often related and apply to the same groups of people, they are not precisely the same.
Salvation has to do with one's health and well-being, which has been compromised by the death sentence upon Adam and his descendants. Justification is a legal term and has to do with a court case and how to be declared innocent in view of one's past sins. Resurrection has to do with being raised from death to life, or from mortality to immortality.
Going back to my analogy about bugs and mosquitoes and bacteria. I don't believe bugs and etc. will be saved. They will, however, be reconciled, because they are a part of God's creation. This does not mean that bugs will be justified, for we have no biblical teaching that any bug will appear before the judgment seat of Christ or before the Great White Throne. Nor will bugs be resurrected from the dead.
Maybe I'm wrong here,,, but......
I cannot see how every mosquito and fly in history will be raised from the dead. The earth would then be thick with such creatures in the Kingdom.
The Bible never says that Satan will be saved, justified, or resurrected. It only says that the reconciliation will include things in heaven as well as on earth.
But if bugs will be reconciled, but not saved, then why must we say that Satan and his angels will be saved? I do not believe that Satan will be "saved."
Even though there are people who do not even believe in a "personal devil" but equate it to the carnal mind. It would still
be revelant to this because the carnal mind will not be saved, but replaced with the mind of Christ, thus reconciling all things. When the mind of man is reconciled, there will be peace and harmony between God and man.
Paul chooses his words carefully by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:27 KJVR
(27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
To reconcile creation means to bring creation into subjection to the rule of Christ, because all things [GK ta panta, "the all"] must be put under His feet. Peace will then be restored, not because He rules by fear forcing all to worship Him, but because all will submit themselves by Love and by full agreement.
So because reconciliation applies to all creation, it cannot feasibly "save" every creature that ever lived, nor justify every rock and tree, nor resurrect every mosquito. It sounds obsurd to me.
What I'm seeing is that God will treat angels differently.
Mat 25:41 CLV
(41) Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
Jesus spoke here of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and therefore, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be completly consumed by God.
To consume is to eat or assimilate. God can "eat" in this sense without violating His character. For this reason, God told the disciples that if they drank any poison, it would not hurt them, and if a serpent bit them, it would do them no harm
Mar 16:18 KJVR
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Where did this ability come from? Obviously, from God, because as a consuming fire, He too is able to consume "the flesh" along with Satan and his angels without violating His sanctity. All vice will simply be assimilated by the all-consuming fire of God.
This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.
We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.
Peace,
Andy
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Andy,
Your post was beautifully constructed and well presented. I too agree with all you state, as it fully supports the saving of all mankind.
I will never go as far as saying that I know the mind of God, so I will continue to trust that his will be done. :)
Love,
Darren
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Hi Andy,
I do not look at the salvation of all creation, to include bugs and any animals life.
You must know Christ to abtain saivation.
1Th 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
So only the things in creation that have a mind, and can know Christ can obtain salvation.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.
"...Fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them."
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------------
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).
It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!
God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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This is a very interesting thread.
I looked up the word RECONCILIATION in "Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary". It says...
Reconciliation: Bringing together of two parties that are estranged or in dispute. Jesus Christ
is the one who brings together God and man, with Salvation as the result of the union.
Reconciliation basically means "change" or "exchange". The idea is of a change of relationship,
an exchange of antagonism for goodwill, enmity for friendship, attitudes are transformed and
hostility ceases.
Col. 1:20 KJV
(20) and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto
himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
If Jesus Christ reconciles all things in heaven and earth, then Satan would be reconciled with
Salvation as the result.
Does this sound right?
Iris
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Hi Andy
You wrote:
This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.
We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.
I found the following in my notes I keep on this subject about Satan.....Here is quoting an excerpt from Ray in an e-mail responce….
…I have backed up by teaching with several thousands of Scriptures in my “Lake of Fire” series…..When God gets finished with the angels (which we shall also judge), and unbelievers, and Satan, He will, of course, save them all.
The righteous will reign with Christ on earth until God becomes “All in All” (1 Cor 15:28)
In another e-mail response Ray writes….
The world has been BLINDED. God Himself has blinded the world (even though He uses messengers of evil to actually do the blinding at times). God Himself will have to REMOVE THIS BLINDNESS in order for people to see. This God will do. Have you not read where the “KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD (SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE FROM God is NOT BLINDNESS ) SHALL COVER THE EARTH AS THE WATERS COVER THE SEA!” All mankind, all the heavenly host, and even Satan himself, will come into a knowledge of the truth – ALL WILL BE SAVED (in heaven and earth.)
Unquote……
Then if you read Ezek 18 : 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn, be converted and live!
Personally I do not believe God will use annihilation of anyone or any spirit being. I believe He is totally powerful to subdue, convert and transform Satan. He transformed a man called Paul and changed his name to Saul. Is Gods power only able to convert a man and not a spirit? Does Gods power have a limit? And thereafter He has to annihilate the enemy because He can not subdue, convert, convict of sin judgment and righteousness?
John 16 : 11…the ruler, evil genius, prince of this world Satan is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
The above has helped me to really get a hold on just how Sovereign our God really is! He is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL! and I get a kick out of that! Hope you do too! :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Chris R
As I understand this so far....some are being judged now and some will be raised to judgment at the White Throne.
Rev20 : 6 Blessed and holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but theyshall be ministers of God and Christ and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.
Does this mean for adults only? ???
Are you saying that babies will be raised to the White Throne Judgement? ???
If so then I have to re-think...again!....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Hello Arcturus,
ALL will be judged, Were is it written differently?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"Every man is every man" it is not every man except a few.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What about those that; ARE FOUND IN THE BOOK OF LIFE?..Did they receive judgment? of course they did! if not how is it that they received a reward?...
It is true that Judgment must begin at the house of God, but because judgment begins, says nothing of its final outcome. Else why does Christ say to those who endure to the END will not be hurt of the second death?
And if these "endure" to the end, how is it that you know?...because you are Judged
Judgment is not always a bad thing, it is in this instance, "a good thing"
hope this helps
Chris R
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Hi Arcturus,
Are you suggesting that because God "is totally powerful to subdue, convert and transform Satan" then he MUST?
It would appear that according to Jesus, Satan has been already judged, something we ourselves cannot say.
Jhn 16:11- Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Here is our witness:
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
I find it interesting that not once in 1,000's of pages of Scripture is ever mentioned that Satan is saved.
WHY IS THAT?
Could it be that it is simply not that important. :)
Here's why.
Mar 12:30-31 - 30 - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
- 31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Do you or any other feal that our God, his Son and all of the writers of old purposefully left out the Salvation of Satan if it were important.
Please know that God's will be done and our greatest task is to Love God with all our strength, soul and mind, and others as much as ourselves.
Just my thoughts, comments always welcome,
Love,
Darren
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Hi Andy,
I think in order to understand whether or not Satan and whether or not bugs and other animals are saved, we first have to understand what these beings really are as compared to us, which I would say is a very difficult task in and of itself. For example:
1. Do bugs have the capacity to "sin"?
I don't think so, but it's hard to know what a bug experiences without being a bug!
2. Do dogs have the capacity to "sin"?
mmmmmm, while intuitively i would say bugs can't sin, i can't just straight away say that about dogs/cats. I just don't know.
3. Is Satan an actual being that experiences things, or is he just a symbol that represents the concept of "evil"?
I do believe that scripture supports the idea that Satan and his demons are actual beings. If it were indeed true though that Satan was not an actual being, but rather just a symbol of evil, then i would agree completely with you Andy, that God's all consuming fire would of course just destroy the evil, and therefore Satan would cease to exist and God would be Righteous to do so.... but in this case Satan never really did exist as an actual being, but rather just a symbol of evil.
4. Is it right to cause an actual being to cease to exist because of his sins, when he only sinned in the first place because God caused him to do so?
To this I say no way! It would not be right for God to cause us to cease to exist because we sinned, and because God is just, he provided a savior to pay the price of our sins and also the means to be cleansed of our sins. If Satan is an actual being as we are, he is no different then us in that God caused him sin, and to be miserable because of his sin, and thus God must provide Satan a way to come out of his sins or else he has been cruel to Satan, and is thus not 100% righteous.
Andy you said:
Jesus spoke here of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and therefore, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be completly consumed by God.
I think we must understand that God's all consuming fire consumes character traits, not actual people/beings. So it is true that there is nothing about Satan's character that is worth saving, but Satan himself is indeed worth saving, just as is every other living creature. All Satan does is sin, but he only does this because God caused him to for his own good purpose, so Satan is actually an extremely important contributor to our happiness in the grand scheme of things.
As far as the deffinition of reconciliation to God vs. salvation, i would agree that the two concepts do not actually mean the same thing. BUT i would also say that you cannot have one without the other! Any sinning being can only be reconciled to God by being saved from his sins! Like i said before, i don't know that bugs/dogs/cats are sinning beings, so i don't know if this applies to them (thus maybe they can be reconciled to God without salvation, because they have no sins to be saved from). But Satan most certainly sins, and thus must be saved to be reconciled (brought to peace) with God. You also mentioned rocks being saved being a rediculous idea, and of course it is, because they are not alive. Trees too, because they surely cannot sin.
You stated:
This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.
We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.
I don't wanna do this, so here are the supporting scriptures for what i have said here:
1. The scriputre/s that say God is 100% perfect, soverign, righteous and good.
2. Mat 25:41 CLV (41) Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
3. The scriputre/s that say God is the cause/creator of both good and evil, and that he made them both for his good purpose.
4. The scriputre that says God is Love, and the one that says he loves his enemies. (God hates what Satan does, but loves Satan himself!)
If there is any need for me to find the specific scriptures i described above, i can do so.
Sean
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Hi Darren,
I thought i would mention that the scripture in Isaiah 14 are not talking about Satan at all.
Here is an excerpt from Ray's article.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------
ONE OF THE BIGGEST LIES IN ALL CHRISTENDOM
("How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer")
Theologians have been teaching for centuries now that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 give us a perfect explanation of how a perfect Lucifer changed himself into Lucifer the Devil.
First Isaiah 14. To whom is God addressing Himself in these verses we quoted above?
"That you shall take up this proverb against the KING OF BABYLON..." (Ver. 4)
God is speaking of and to and about, "the King of Babylon," not Lucifer, not Satan, not a cherub. And God tells us the end of this man’s reign:
"Your pomp is brought down to the grave [Satan never died or was put in a grave], and the noise of your viols [harps or lutes]: the worm [or maggots] is spread under you [can maggots eat a spirit body], and the worms cover you" (Ver. 11).
But is not this "Lucifer" of verse 14 not Satan the Devil?
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The scripture is a mystery.
But it plainly states "to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Satan is one of the all, this is just comon sense that it means things with the mind to understand who Christ is, and not dumb animals.
Chris, in Rev.20:13 ...And each one of them was judged according to their works.
He must have works, and new born babies do not have works.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.
Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.
Isa 14:6-15- v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.
- v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
- v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
- v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
- v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
- v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
- v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
- v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
- v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
- v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?
Love to you,
Darren
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Hi Darren,
I see your point.
That is a good observation.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi all,
The KIng of babylon was used by satan, tempted by him. That doesn't mean he "was " satan.
Ther is no witness to the scripture
((Isa 14:12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!That confirms Satan was called Lucifer.
With regard to the bugs and mosquitos etc being reconciled...............bugs and mosquitos DONT have logic....they don't sin.
Satan had enough logic to twist scriptiure and lie!
(Gen 3:1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Joh 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Sansmile (sandie)
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Hello everyone,
I have perused this thread and I think one thing (forgive me if I missed someone else stating this) that everyone is forgetting that when it is written about being "saved" this is speaking of the "elect" those of the called who are being judged now, or during their present life. Are not the elect to judge angels?
All will eventually be saved, after the WTJ and after going through the LOF (which is Christ and the elect). It helps to keep things in perspective when we see the bible (a giant parable) as being primarily for the benefit of His chosen, it is not given to the multitude(s).
It is a shame that due to a lack of patience and longsuffering that strife replaced edification.
His Peace and Wisdom to you all,
Joe
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Kat,
I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.
Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.
Isa 14:6-15- v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.
- v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
- v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
- v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
- v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
- v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
- v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
- v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
- v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
- v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?
Love to you,
Darren
Hi Darren,
I see the spiritual message as all men at some point in time exalting the "beast within" above God.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hello Chris R
This conversation has led me to perceive that judgement is in fact on a gradient of intensity. I did not see that before and it has blessed me to see it now. In fact the scripture that came up for me I quoted earlier, was the first to be matched to two others in the NT.
The key that started this perception was Kats quip that Satan first in last out of the LOF. I enjoyed that comment and it continued to inspire deeper understanding. After this scripture came to my mind two others followed from the NT.
Isaiah 28 :26 – 29 And when he trains each of them correctly, for his God instructs him correctly and teaches him. 27 For dill is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten off with a staff, and cumin with a rod ,by hand, 28. Does one crush bread grain? No, he does not thresh it continuously. ( Here this verse for me torpedoes the fallacy and heresy of endless punishment!) But when he has driven his cartwheel and his horses over it, he scatters it, tossing it up to the wind without having crushed it. 29 This also comes from the Lord of hosts. Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom and effectual working.
These are the two from the NT that have helped me to see that Judgment is on a gradient of intensity. Stonger for some and less intense for others depending on the depth of waywardness, hardness of heart and complilance to Christliness.
Matt 13 : 8 The parable of the sower sowing seeds on the way side, stony places, seeds that had no roots, thorny and good ground, and
Matt 20: 1 The parable of the worker in the vineyard with the owner hiring workmen third sixth ninth and eleventh hour and paying the same wages.
I may be way off base here and this might have an entirely different meaning but for me in regard to the LOF and Judgment I see this as meaning that some will suffer harsh correction and chastisement eg Adolph Hitler etc and others will be taught and trained into the way of the Lord which will feel far less corrective and more administrative in effect like in the training of children who's lives were cut off before they could know Christ.
I had no idea that babies would go to the LOF. I see it now and appreciate the deeper clarification and awareness that knowledge of Christ will be received differently according to the degree of error in each person. People who love wickedness will hate correction! ;D
I have for years wondered at how this would work and now I can say I am blessed abundantly to now have the revelation! Judgment is OKAY. It is GRACE! I see it now!
What also comes to mind is that Brimstone is not so bad either! :D
I appreciate your explanation and your effort to bring to me an edifying response :)
Do you have any comment on the three scriptures that I think could possibly be a match?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Luke 12 (King James Version)
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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Goose bumps Amen! ;D
........."and again I say rejoice ".....;D
AMEN!
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hi guys,
sorry for jumping in so late but here goes anyway...
the WhiteThrone judgement is not to send everyone to the LOF, but to judge those who was not risen in the first resurrection, according to their works:
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
to my understanding, the Church (minus the overcomers) and all who have done Godly deeds their whole life and who were not necessarily Christians or have heard his Word (those sheep from the "other flocks" Jesus referred to) would receive their reward of immortality at this judgement.
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Hi worm,
Everyone goes through the fire, for the elect it is now, for all the rest of mankind it is the Lake of fire.
Mar 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
All are in the Lake of fire, the elect are the fire, and the rest of mankind will be cast in it.
1Co 3:13 each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
1Co 3:14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
There is no literal lake, and there is no literal fire.
Jesus Christ and His Body of saints are the Lake of judging, purifying and consuming spiritual fire.
1Co 6:2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Heb 12:29 for also, "Our God is a consuming fire."
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Psa 104:4 He makes his messengers winds, His ministers a flaming fire.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Marie and Kat
This is what I see from where I am standing…..Marie
You wrote : Take a toddler for example. Even at the tender age of 1 or 2, the toddler is concerned ONLY for themselves. It is me, me, me. This is the very sinful nature we are born with. Temper tantrums are their way of expressing themselves for not getting their selfish desires. They are sinning even at this young age, because so many times they KNOW what they shouldn't be doing, but they keep doing it to see how far they can get away with fulfilling their own fleshly lusts - (even though this lust seems innocent enough to us compared to the fleshly lusts of adults). Did we ever have to teach a child to misbehave? No, they do a fine job on their own.
Your comment deepens my insight and understanding that babies will be going in to the lake of fire which for me is symbolic for correction, edification and encouragement into the knowledge of Christ. Not so bad!
Proverbs 22 : 6 Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.
I understand what you have shared with Kat regarding your indignation against the Church teachings on accountability. In the Catholic Church they have confirmation rites, and in the Jewish traditions they have Bar mitzvah celebrations into adulthood and so called “accountability”. I have come to perceive that once we believe in our own free will (which doesn’t exist) then we will have to give account for this before God. As you illustrate Marie, little babies start life acting out the attitude that everything must revolve around them or else tantrums follow. If this self centred attitude is the basis for our beliefs then, as the scriptures declare, we will have to explain and account before God for our own arrogance, self willed blindness and folly and for every idle word. Matt 12 : 36 …every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
As I understand this, those who recognize that God is Sovereign and that no one has uncaused choice, feelings, thoughts, circumstances or actions, then ( for me,) it is those with this awareness who will be the ones who are more likely to be undergoing judgment now. They are more likely to gauge their spiritual strength or weakness against their levels of dependence on God and their levels of faith in His wisdom through whatever circumstances God causes them to walk through. For them trials, tribulations and circumstances are but tests of faith and dependence and trust of Christ in God drawing them into deeper reliance on Christ which through Judgment moves them further away from self reliance, self importance or self esteem into deeper sharing the cross with Christ.
By contrast, others who are not in the Judgment NOW, will be trying to impress God, living by the law, trying to be Godly self-approved self-appointed helpers of God. (These helpers, call themselves servants of God which veils their eyes from the fact that they actually really think and believe that they have the power of choice to please or serve God and they teach and lead others into the same heresy. The age or time of accountability meaning for them that it is all up to their choices and their free will as clocked in by man made traditions and customs that void the word of God for those who neither know the Scriptures or the power of God. Blind leading the blind.) Non have power and non have uncaused choice and it is these under illusion who will be measuring themselves and others in pious comparison against their own good deeds, how much they give to charity, how big their works are, how large their Church is or how wide their support is in TBN land, New York best sellers book lists, and they will show off their good deeds before men and ultimately in defiance before God…….Pity them of whom it is written…
Matt 7 : 22 …Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name: and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works:
Rev 2 : 2…I know thy works
Rev 2 : 9…I know thy works
Rev 2 : 13 I know thy works
Rev 2 : 19 I know thy works
Rev 3 : 1 I know thy works
Rev 3 : 8 I know thy works
Rev 3 : 15 I know thy works
God knows EVERYTHING. The message. Get over it …overcome self, get over works, overcome self-will, self-approval self-justification, self- importance, self-rationalization self-aggrandizement, self self self self…..and to over come self esteem, for me, the worlds most insidious seductive and heinous anti Christ perversion in teaching ever.
Rev… And to him who overcomes…I will give…I will give…I will give…. and He has already given HIMSELF. , and we will who are called, and we will who are chosen and we will who are judged now and we….
Chris R wrote : ALL will be judged, Were is it written differently?
So for me this all points to one thing. We are all accountable and we all begin life learning how to have a good self-esteem. We are all mistakenly lead, trained and coerced through worldly teachings to believe and experience the illusion that we have free choice etc which places our ego on the throne while displacing God and His Sovereignty in our own deluded minds. In this we all fall short by Gods design, plan purpose and intention. Only Jesus who never sinned was never accountable because He was always responsible and for me, is from the beginning Gods Son. In our beginning we are Gods weak children being trained up into spiritual strength and right standing with God. I agree with you Marie that we are called, chosen and dragged only by God in His time according to His will and plan for us individually. For me there is no age benchmark for this to happen. God can call and choose anyone, any time, any where anyhow. No one can pre-empt God or cause God to work according to our perceived will. We line up with God’s will God doesn’t line up to our perceived mistaken free will or choice. God doesn’t change. We have to and God causes our changes.
I believe accountability comes from our, by design, spiritual weakness and is the parent of blame shifting and all the mental ills that manifest in the powerful grip of this illusion. We confuse accountability with responsibility. We confuse free will with caused will. We confuse God with ourselves. We experience these ills through our own weakness in spirit and weakness of spiritual strength. Our weakness is beyond our comprehension until God takes hold of us to show us a thing or two like Bible Truths and LOF the Beast Within and the Myths of Free will revelations and trials and tribulations.
We all experience painful trials and tribulations. As God causes us to begin to succumb yield and submit under HIS chastisement, training and disciplining which is HIS work on us as He pleases to do and will, then we become broken not as in shattered but as in yielding, obedient, submissive pliable as we are broken into meekness and prepared for the knowledge that God alone is Sovereign. This knowledge takes away our wildness as we are grafted into this truth of the true vine and as we begin to feel the sap of the truth enter into our thoughts and minds changing us from our wildness wilderness mentality by conforming us into His purity of faith and dependence and trust in His responsibility for us.
I think THE Free Will LOF teaching is THE mega disclosure of OUR times. That our eyes have read it, that our hearts have contemplated its message means for me, that we have been the ones to enter into the Holy Sanctuary of Gods mysteries, holiness and power. It may appear on a number of pages on the internet but it is explosive in its power, it is pure in its message and it for me is from the Spirit of Christ teaching us disciples the Truth.
Accountability for me is a spoof like free will. They (for me) belong in the same stables of error and illusion. Like you say Marie….when does anyone get chosen or called of their own free choice or free will? All is of God. The times are in His hands. This is not dependent on our age, on our traditions, our Churchy confirmations or Synagogue Bar mitzvah’s or on anything of man. It is all-dependent on God. I am not saying we are not going to be judged or held accountable for our trust in free will. I am saying that as we are released from and as we let go of the illusion that we have free-will, our accountability will transform to conformity in Christ’s image. This is how I see it.
Ecc 3 : 1-
To EVERYTHING there is a season, and a time for EVERY MATTER or purpose under heaven.
14 I know that whatever God does, it endures forever, nothing can be added to it nor anything taken from it. AND GOD DOES IT SO THAT MEN WILL REVERENTLY FEAR HIM REVERE AND WORSHIP HIM knowing that HE IS.
For me reverent fear can only occur as and when we receive illumination from God that reveals HIS Sovereignty to us. As we can see already, some revolt and scream heresy while hurling abuse and pious indignations like the Pharisees did in the time of Jesus when they first see this free will is their pampered god-self free will idolatry. Once exposed they will try to resist, hide, deny and even try to kill, maim, tarnish, discredit, oppose, blot out and cancel its revelation…. while some of us, blessedly embrace God as God.
Ecc 12 : 13,14 All has been heard; the end of the matter is; Fear God, revere and worship Him, knowing that He is, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man, the full, original PURPOSE of His creation, the object of God’s providence, the root f character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to al inharmonious circumstances, and the conditions under the sun and the whole duty for every man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good or evil.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Kat,
Peace to you and may we both be guided by His Spirit to teach us all things.
Hi Arcturus,
Your dedication for edification is heart-warming.
One thing you state,
I think THE Free Will LOF teaching is THE mega disclosure of OUR times. That our eyes have read it, that our hearts have contemplated its message means for me, that we have been the ones to enter into the Holy Sanctuary of Gods mysteries, holiness and power. It may appear on a number of pages on the internet but it is explosive in its power, it is pure in its message and it for me is from the Spirit of Christ teaching us disciples the Truth.
reminded me of this verse I wanted to share with you,
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
20 years ago I could have never imagined the information that I'd be able to find at the click of a mouse. Ray's site is obviously ordained by God...a means (if even a trifle) to bring knowledge of Him to the earth.
Which could bring up another discussion. There is receiving knowledge, but will all who receive this knowledge receive the Spirit?
Love,
Marie
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Hi Marie
Yes I agree with your comment for discussion : Which could bring up another discussion. There is receiving knowledge, but will all who receive this knowledge receive the Spirit?
What do you think? I see this is two parts. Present and Future.
THE PRESENT:
What comes to mind for me is Judas. He knew Jesus Christ. He was called but failed in his faith in the final analysis. The chosen will be failthful to the end. Faithful to what they know and to WHO they know. Look at Peter. Jesus prayed that His faith endure and after his conversion.....after his conversion....
Non were converted until Penticost as I understand this. So yes. I agree with you. Knowledge is insufficient. Conversion is necessary which for me means that Christ is the centre not self. When Christ is on the throne of our being, then the true fruit of His Spirit manifests not in outward show as some in Mystery Babylon would pretend to aquire, but in true inward unfolding and maturation. I also believe that we can have the intellectual knowledge without the experience of Christ. We can know in the mind and have the revelations given to us through the discernments given by the Holy Spirit and we can still backslide! For me, my aliveness in soul body and spirit is all due to His presence. Should He withdraw in any area of my heart, mind, body or Spirit, I will wilt and die. He is my goodness, He is my clear thinking, He brings the scriptures to my mind to discuss and contemplate and learn. He is my everything that is true, worthy of reverance, honourable and seemly, justice, it is He who is pure, lovely and loveable, kind and gracious and it is He who is virtue and excellence and as said in the Scriputures Phil 4 : 8 Think on thes things....Whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatso'ever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any priase, think on these things.
Of my self I can offer nothing honest, good or worthy. Of yourself neither can you or anyone! Self has to be overcome, subdued and put under foot. When this is fully grasped and appropriated in mind and heart....does this not bring in its wake the apprehension, the hope and the expectation of the reality that there will come for us a true knowledge of Christ's Glory? He will not share His glory with flesh but as we are disenguaged with our selves and conformed into His image does this not bring with it a unique experience of intimacy with Him and forknowledge of HIS Glory to come upon the earth finally? Is it not this experience that sets us apart and makes the world grow strangely dim while we become all the more perculiar to those who have still worldly eyes and worldly comprehension? This is not a pretigue status but a privilage of meekness under the awesome rule and Sovereignty of God Himself! No pride of place in this perception or foothold for Satan can be present here as is often the case in pretended election! :o
We need, I need Christ to hold us/me steady to the end. We/I need God to give us/me to Christ as His own. We/I can not do this of our/my selves or of our/my purest intentions becasue we/I do not choose Christ but are chosen by Him. There is comfort in that what He starts He will finish because He is the Author and finisher of our Faith. For me there is comfort in that. 8)
As for taking our faith or right standing with God for granted...I am ever aware that if God wants to put my faith to the test, He can put it to the test beyond which it could stand. He alone makes me stand. Just because I know He will not put me through more than I can withstand and that He will always provide an escape into refuge with Him, does not mean I do not recall the many many times I have experienced my weakness, failure and liability to temptations. This balance brings clarity of the supreme dependence I have in Christ. As He said....without Him we are and can do nothing. We can not even know anything much less drink of His living waters of His Spirit of Truth, Faith, Sovereignty and Holiness.
THE FUTURE
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
What God says will happen, WILL HAPPEN. As this is prophesied in the Scripture, I believe that in the day that the knowledge of the glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea, it will not be anything shabby. For me, the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will bring with it all the blessings of right knowledge, right understanding and righteousness in the end where all opposition and all doubts as to who the Lord is, will be put under His feet. :D
I believe others here will also have certain scriptures and the thoughts arise in their hearts and minds that touch on this event to come as prophesied, who can also share what they see from where they are standing for our encouragement and edification.
Peace to you.
Arcturus :)
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Kat,
I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.
Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.
Isa 14:6-15- v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.
- v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
- v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
- v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
- v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
- v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
- v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
- v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
- v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
- v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?
Love to you,
Darren
As far as I remember, the word "lucifer" has already been proven to be added in where the word "howl" should go. I'm not going to go into detail, but what kind of spiritual meaning are you looking for with "howl"?
-Beau
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I havn't read the entire thread but here is an important scripture, and i believe it will help you better understand Gods power, even over spiritual biengs. Here is what God says about His creation.
"For the creature [SATAN IS A CREATURE/CREATION OF GOD] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY [Not of our own 'free' will.],but by reason of Him[thats.. God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature [SATAN] itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
God bless,
Alex
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Kat,
I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.
Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.
Isa 14:6-15- v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.
- v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
- v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
- v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
- v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
- v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
- v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
- v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
- v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
- v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?
Love to you,
Darren
As far as I remember, the word "lucifer" has already been proven to be added in where the word "howl" should go. I'm not going to go into detail, but what kind of spiritual meaning are you looking for with "howl"?
-Beau
Darran, brother, the reason why LUCIFER and THE KING OF BABYLON is not spiritual of satan, is because satan does not go to HELL [THE GRAVE.]
He is a spiritual bieng, he will never die and end up in the grave as the rest of us do, or atleast as i see it, and that is why ray says there is no connection in that verse with that to satan.
God bless,
Alex
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Here to quote part of an email response from Ray:
"And if Satan was a "blunder" in God's creation then God is NOT PERFECT. If God didn't create Satan for the purpose he is now fulfilling, then God DIDN’T KNOW ALL, and God IS NOT ALL WISE AND ALL-KNOWING. And God LIED when He said that EVERYTHING HE CREATED WAS GOOD!!! Etc., etc., etc."
The Scriptural back-up would In Isaiah 27: 1a we learn the serpent gets punished:
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;
As well as John 16: 11 that Arcturus put forth which are Christ's words about Satan's judgment.
Following Ray's line of thought... as he has said somewhere else... you can get condemned, destroyed, lost, perished, damned, punished, etc., but God's plan is for ALL to make it.
As a side note, Andy, I am uncertain whether Isasiah 40: 26 refers to evil spirits. I think not, but rather to evil men. I could be wrong.
Cheers, Caregiver :)