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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lderr on July 20, 2012, 02:20:24 PM
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I've been thinking (wondering?) lately, When the Lord's people are resurrected, what will we be like?
Yes, we read:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2 KJV)
And,
" For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians "15:53 KJV)
And,
"For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25 KJV)
But that falls short of my curiosity.
Who will we be? We have learned that a large part of our human thought process is a result of environment, genetics and chemistry , among other things. For example, when I don't get enough sleep I am irritable and more likely to say negative things about my surroundings and events in the news. Is that who I always am? No.
If I were an 18th century hat-maker and were exposed to frequent high levels of mercury I would develop personality disorders due to mercury poisoning. My behavior would deteriorate until I was " mad as a hatter". Is that who I am? No.
If I were born with a slight mutation in my genetic makeup, at some point I would start to hallucinate and believe I was hearing voices telling me to do things. Is that who I am? I don't think so.
Or again with genetics. Researchers have found that people with a certain gene are more prone to worry. In the ages to come, will these resurrected people still be worriers? Probably not.
So what will we be like? Is it the chemistry of our bodies that makes us who we are, and what will we be like without it?
You can see that I have questions.
Lewis :-\
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Onelove said: quote... Don't worry about anything.
Please forgive me.... I just couldn't pass this one up!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv-Fk1PwVeU
doug
edit - No.... I guess Onelove quoted Ray saying, don't worry about anything.
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Lewis -
On a more serious note.... it seems as though God has intentionally left out a whole bunch of information on the coming Kingdom Age. I guess our imaginations can run wild on this one. You posed an interesting question though... and I believe Onelove gave us some good insight.
Here's another similar question that I have had. If there isn't going to be marriage ultimately after the resurrection for the elect... then what will be the purpose of even having a gender? Male and female? It seems to me that we are going to be made into totally different sexless beings. Or.... am I reading too much into the no marriage statement? ::)
Here we go imaginations....
doug
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Friend Lewis,
Well we will all, women & men, be the BRIDE of Christ and that is a marriage arrangement.
I think that fact also should lead us to better see our position relating to Lord Jesus.
We will be the most perfectly submissive bride that one can imagine and our desire will be toward our husband.
Then also we can see more deeply into our relationship by what is spoken of in Proverbs 31, especially if we apply those thoughts in a spiritual sense in that we will be responsible for the daily care of those who we are teaching righteousness. They will be our household of faith.
How's that for starters, Indianabob
The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.
2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
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Hello,Lewis
you ask?.........Who will we be?....and... what will we be like?
who will we be......Kings and Priest if we are elect!....Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
what will we be like......Considering the Body has to be were the head is. Eph 2:6 And raised us up together, and seated us together in the heavenlies, in Christ.As the" Mystery" that Paul spoke of through out his writings.The body.... the Christ!
On a more serious note.... it seems as though God has intentionally left out a whole bunch of information on the coming Kingdom Age.
I see were Zech-Chapter 14...gives us a great idea of what will be going on in the kingdom age.People of the earth will be coming up to perform the feast of Tabernacles.
Also ,The Kings and Priest we teach the Gentiles Families that made it through the tribulation of those days as they will still be populating during those times.Satan is bound for a season.
The prophets speak of a temple being built during that time.Ezekiel Chapters 40-48.And there is really much more.
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Hi Jerry -
Nice answer to my statement about the Kingdom Age. (as it stood)
I need to define what I meant to say more clearly.... because that is not what I meant to say, nor do I believe that is what Lewis was questioning as to his comments. My mistake, but here is what I meant to say:
It seems as though God has intentionally left out a whole bunch of information on what we as individuals (the elect) will be like physically in the Kingdom Age. (our chemisty make up, our identities, our features, our senses, etcetra)
Sorry to have misled you... and I'm sure, others! :D
doug
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Hello Doug
Thanks Doug....I want to first say.I know here on the forum that we have to watch every word we say.Because we could easly mis lead someone.And I know for sure its frustrating when we do get mis-understood our family comes on here and seems like calls us out.Well please know I am not calling you out.I enjoy your comments and insight here on the forum. IT... is as you are sharing...... it is a mis interpertation of the thought the person was or is trying to get across.I will say this by exsperience...hehe...It sure makes us a lot sharper the next post!
Thanks Doug for your response and thanks for being concerned for those on the forum.Jerry
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It seems as though God has intentionally left out a whole bunch of information on what we as individuals (the elect) will be like physically in the Kingdom Age. (our chemisty make up, our identities, our features, our senses, etcetra)
Doug,what makes you believe that the elect will be raised into physical bodies?
Peace...Mark
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Hi Mark -
We will be raised as spiritual bodies uncorrupted but I believe we will be able to show ourselves physically at will just as Jesus did after His ascention and return to earth. His transformed body must have certainly not looked the same because most that He appeared Himself to didn't recognize Him. I believe we will be like Him in that way as having a physical body. After all, does "spiritual" body have to mean "invisible" body? Or, is it a body that is physical but not corrupted?
Acts 1:11
New International Version (NIV)
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
I suppose it is just conjecture without scriptural proof of the elect being raised the same way as Jesus will come again.
doug
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We will be a JOCOPELO!
having!
1. Joy
2. Contentment
3. Peace
4. Love
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B-T post
I think some of you are on he right track.
". . . then what will be the purpose of even having a gender? Male and female?"
Do the angels have a gender? I didn't think so.
What will life on the earth be like? Jerry, you point to Zech. 14. and that may be it, for those who survive Christ's return. But what about the resurrected?
I am curious about our world. I like to know how things work. Why they work. I would be content to know EVERYTHING about the universe. Will I still have that curiosity as a king and priest? Or is that something that will purged and refined away? The cares and concerns of this world may not be needed in a spiritual realm.
I can do little but wait and see. Until then, yes, I only have moments of JOCOPELO, until I am perfected.
What I read here, what I learn here, from Ray and others, is an immense help.
Lewis
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B-T post
I think some of you are on he right track.
". . . then what will be the purpose of even having a gender? Male and female?"
Do the angels have a gender? I didn't think so.
What will life on the earth be like? Jerry, you point to Zech. 14. and that may be it, for those who survive Christ's return. But what about the resurrected?
I am curious about our world. I like to know how things work. Why they work. I would be content to know EVERYTHING about the universe. Will I still have that curiosity as a king and priest? Or is that something that will purged and refined away? The cares and concerns of this world may not be needed in a spiritual realm.
I can do little but wait and see. Until then, yes, I only have moments of JOCOPELO, until I am perfected.
What I read here, what I learn here, from Ray and others, is an immense help.
Lewis
Lewis, what do you mean by "for those who survive Christ's return"? ..I'm still learning of such things!
Rob
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Hi Lewis,
We are all having varied life circumstances that occur in our lives and all these many different things that happen is creating us into all these unique individuals. So all this characteristic that we develop are important to retain so that people will have their individuality. But of course these personality traits are developed from a carnal nature and that will need to be corrected.
The elect were chosen before they were born and I believe their whole life is for them to be prepared for the place they will one day have as ruling with Christ. But everyone starts off in darkness an must be brought to the light (Jesus Christ). In this life the elect are given an earnest of the Spirit, but when they are born into the kingdom they will have a full measure as Christ does and that will give them all they need to serve God completely and perfectly as we know Christ did on earth. I think Christ after His resurrection is an example of what it will be like after the resurrection for the elect. Though Christ only appeared to His elect, but then the elect will be coming to deal with the corrupt world.
Now something that occurs to me is that not all those in the resurrection will need a lot of correction, think about John the Baptist and the Prophets, etc. I could see how they would serve a very important place physically on earth. Just something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Alright Lewis! - I said that we could let our imaginations run "wild" (well, not that wild if you know what I mean!) on the topic that you proposed. (One of my favorite - & underrated - animated Disney characters is Figment... like in figment of imagination). You question... like I do... "what will we be like" in the resurrection?
I have to ask myself... why would we be like angels in the Kingdom Age? God already has angels so why would He want similar beings? Scripture says only that we will not be "marrying" like the angels do not marry, not that we will be like angels. By the way, I believe the KJV & others have miss translated angels many times, as the word for angel is "messenger". Angels are or course messengers, we as God's chosen are messengers, and Christ is THE messenger. Depending on the context, I think many times angels should not have been used in a verse. Just sayin'.
Also I strongly believe that in God's "heavenly host" in which a verse in Ephesians describes as the principalities & powers of the heavenlies, are in part Jesus and the angelic host and the totally separate beings.... the Sons of God. Imo, the Sons of God are not humans or angels, but separate intities in the heavenly host of God's Family. That's a whole nother topic and would take a lengthy paper for me to describe and try to prove that point.
That being said, I also hinted above with the comment that I may be reading too much into the verse that we will not be marrying in the Kindom Age. That is true. Human marriages that we have today will be totally eliminated for the elect in the resurrection. But does that also mean there will be no sexual relations? No, I don't believe that it does. I believe that we will be fully functional for that - and that our individual genders will not be lost.
Let me explain. In Genesis God gave our marriage arrangement certain curses because of our sin. (God's sovereignty of course). In each marriage that the bible sanctions there is a social curse given to each woman and the curse was never rescinded. And what is that curse? "Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow shall you bring forth children, and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you." Gen. 3:16.
I could give extensive evidence of women being treated like chattel in the OT and how women were, and still are, to be under subjection in the NT churches. This arrangement will not take place in the resurrection of the elect saints.
What Paul recorded in Ephesians states that each individual believer, whether male or female, rich or poor, young or old, slave or free will sit on the right hand of the Father in Christ (spiritually) in an equal and superior status. In the resurrection we will not be subjected to all these laws concerning marriage. There will be no curses or carnality between a man and a woman. Women will no longer be subjected to the slightest inferiority to males in the Family of God. This means that the curse with being associated with a female and especially in being a wife in marriage to a human male, will disappear.
We will be Sons and Daughters and Children of God with sexual desires as we have seen demonstrated in the bible with angels not subject to the same marriage rules of ownership that humans are commanded to keep. I believe we will have intimacy with each other but only within the framework of the sanctity of God. I could go on with more detail in my view on how God will work this out but I will stop here. I will let Figment work on your imagination!
I am trying to emphasize though that we as the elect will all keep our norman shapes and forms. In my view, the bible teaches the resurrection of the body, not simply and solely the resurrection of the spirit. The spirit is something that will be placed in the body that makes it alive and active once again! And so therefore, in the resurrection, all bodies have functional sexual features.
Now please! hold back on dissention because what I have described is purely speculation. But, I also believe what I have described in "what we will be like" is close to being accurate in my assumption and that I have logically put forth a good assessment to my biblical understanding.
Something to ponder....
doug
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Hi Doug,
I don't see where there will be a place with God's chosen elect for any kind of physical/carnal relationships whatsoever. I can see how a carnal mind will imagine, desire and want there to be sex in the kingdom of God, but sexual relations are for the flesh and not for the spiritual. As the elect will be born into the kingdom and will be given glorious spiritual bodies, which I believe will be pure bliss and the carnal flesh will be left far behind and there will be no need for any of the physical pleasures we once needed.
While Christ was on earth, though He was in the flesh, even then He was totally consummed with doing the Father's will and never seemed drawn to the desires (sexual) of the flesh, as even to think of a woman that way would be a sin. I think that will be the same for the resurrected elect saints. After the resurrection the elect will also be totally consummed with doing the Father's will and this will not be at the cost of our own personal desires, as some make be thinking. I believe when you are completely joined with the Father as Jesus Christ is and become one as they are One, so His will becomes what you desire and to serve God and do the work of continuing His plan. The glory the elect will know at that time will be so wonderful that the physical things will have no temptation to them whatsoever. IMHO.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Exactly correct Kat,
Reproduction of the human species was and is a temporary need so that God would have the number of children He required and so that humans could share to a degree in creating the offspring they would engender and care for.
It may also be the case that male and female gender or emotional, hormonal sex differences are for the same purpose, that is to cause men and women to seek partners even against their own self interest.
For the future after our change comes, it may be that it is helpful for our understanding as counselors of the unconverted that we have a hands on understanding of what young people and what married partners are facing in getting along with one another. Not that Lord Jesus could not teach us what we need to know since he knows and understands all of our feelings and emotions even those of a pregnant woman in labor or of a husband who's wife dies in childbirth.
All of our human experiences are for the time being and for maturing us into adults with understanding and will be forgotten when the work is completed and we all are finally carrying out the glorious plans of God as pioneers of the ages to come. Then we will put away childish things such as seeking pleasure for ourselves, within our selves and will instead be concerned only for the best good of others as is explained in the two commandments Jesus gave us in Matthew.
And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, "Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?" Jesus said to him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:35-40)
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
In like manner, when we are changed to spirit existence it shall be comparable to maturing from a self centered infant in diapers to an adult of full age caring only for their beloved family and enjoying every minute of it.
Bob
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Hello,
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
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Great quote Jerry,
It could not be said better.
Bob
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I believe we will be like Him in that way as having a physical body. After all, does "spiritual" body have to mean "invisible" body? Or, is it a body that is physical but not corrupted?
I suppose it is just conjecture without scriptural proof of the elect being raised the same way as Jesus will come again.
doug
Hey Doug.
Looking at this verse...
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Gods word states that everything material is actually formed of things which do not appear. It is by this understanding that we must come to believe that flesh is not able to be as the wind[spirit].We must be born of the spirit,to be spirit, because, that which is born of flesh, is flesh.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
When Jesus appeared in the flesh after His resurrection it was for the benefit of His disciples seeing that they did not have the faith to believe that it was actually Him.
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Since spirit is invisible, Jesus had to show them which did not believe that He had risen from the dead,just as He said He would. Notice that Jesus Himself states that...a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have....
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Though spirit can manifest,appear, and be in another form...
Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
...into a physically appearing form ["as ye see me have"]., that in and of itself does not make spirit flesh. Thomas and others had to be shown because of their unbelief.
Jesus' resurrection and appearance into a physical body of flesh was a temporary condition for the sake of the apostle's lack of faith. Notice that Jesus appeared in the room with them in the form of His former crucified self,holes and all...so that they might believe... so that they may have life... through His name[Word].
John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe .
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Jesus's appearance was not only for those who did not believe at that time but is now also a necessary learning experience for our admonition ,through His Word,to all,that He is calling out...of the world.
Jesus being born[sown],crucified,and dying was part of the physical event of His earthly existence. Being raised from the dead was a spiritual event for Jesus, and a yet to come time for us,or His words would be a lie.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Doug,you seem to avoid using scripture in your conjecture of how the Word of God is to be discerned. Although I believe you are trying to be sincere in what you post we are told not to think above that which is written.
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other,
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
We should pray to God always for an understanding of things Spiritual and not let every wind of false doctrine dictate[within and without ourselves] what the Truth of God is conveying through His Word,
because...
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Hope this helps. Thanks...
Peace...Mark
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We do not yet know what we will be completely like in the 1st Resurrection.
Will we be sexual beings? I don't know. If you think you know, please quote two or three scriptures that prove your point.
The scriptures state that we will have a spiritual body in the 1st Resurrection. The scriptures also state that God will have sons and daughters.
How can you have sons and daughters without sexual differences? If we were not sexually different, if we were exactly the same, then we would be "its" and not sons and daughters.
None of us are nearly as spiritually smart as we think we are. We are at the spiritual intellectual level of an unborn baby.
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Hi Kat -
Thank you for your input. But like me, as I stated... conjecture without scriptural backing... I believe yours also was an emotional response.
Here is an analogy to what I heard to this question (sex in heaven) while I was in the "church" which goes along to what I believe you tried to get across:
The question of lovemaking in "heaven" is like a child's question whether you can eat candy during "sex". A funny question only from the adult's point of view. Candy is one of children's greatest pleasures; how can they conceive a pleasure so intense that it renders candy irrelevant? Only if you know both can you compare two things, and all those who have tasted both the delights of "sex" with the earthly beloved and the delights of "spiritual love" with God, testify that there is simply no comparison.
Kat, I am surely not saying what you contributed is not right. I still have some questions about that analogy. But, I equally have just as many questions with what I suggested. I am just so happy to be able to discuss this kind of stuff on a like minded forum. I believe truth will prevail... and I will be settled in my mind either way! I have no biased opinion! I have no point to prove! Lewis and I can't learn if we don't ask... and speaking for myself now... foolishness to some doesn't mean that it is foolishness to me!
doug
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None of us are nearly as spiritually smart as we think we are. We are at the spiritual intellectual level of an unborn baby.
Man I am reminded of that everyday John!I have to agree!
Wanted to ask because your statement:"The Scripture also state that God will have Sons and Daughters."Caught my attention.
In 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
So my question is.IT seems as if all the Scriptures that refer to Sons and Daughters are in the the reference as to what we are BEFORE we put on Immortality.
I dont know ..like I said your qoute caught my attention.Jerry
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Mark, you answered my questions specifically with those scriptures you provided. Especially Mk. 16:12 where it states appearing in another form... I take it that this is probably how we will appear to those "flesh" dwelling beings not in the resurrection and how we will minister to them. We can't be invisible... I don't see how that can work! That was one of the hang ups I had about our new bodies... how we would be recognized by others if an invisible spirit.
I see now that what I mistakenly thought was conjecture actually was not, as you did provide scriptural proof. I have read those scriptures before... but not into the context to this application "spirit beings" in the Kingdom Age. Before I studied this forum I knew of no such thing as a Kingdom Age! I certainly am sincere in what I post, and with all of your scriptural help, I can avoid not to "think above that which is written." If I just sit on the side lines so to speak, and not dive into questions with a humble learning attitude, I will never learn the deeper concepts of God's word.
When you said "hope this helps".... yes sir, it most certainly does! I can't learn unless I throw out seeming stupid questions. But, at the same time this question is not so stupid to me and most importantly I pray that because of my unfounded comments I don't make anyone fall in their understanding to the correct interpretation. That's why we are all here... to help each other... iron sharpens iron!
doug
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Hello,Doug
Hope all is well.I understand your trying to work through this Subject.It seems your answer could be found in this thought.... maybe not.If there is sex with a glorified body...which i myself don't believe as of now.Would that not be fornication? Because the Scripture says
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
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None of us are nearly as spiritually smart as we think we are. We are at the spiritual intellectual level of an unborn baby.
Man I am reminded of that everyday John!I have to agree!
Wanted to ask because your statement:"The Scripture also state that God will have Sons and Daughters."Caught my attention.
In 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
So my question is.IT seems as if all the Scriptures that refer to Sons and Daughters are in the the reference as to what we are BEFORE we put on Immortality.
I dont know ..like I said your qoute caught my attention.Jerry
Hi Jerry,
The scripture I refer to is 2 Cor. 6:18, "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be my sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty."
Father/Yahweh/Jehovah----refers to His Self-Existent, Continuous Presence---He Who Is, Was, and Will BE. So He is in the future too. A Father---sons and daughters----I don't get sons and daughters without a sexual difference.
But who knows for sure but God. For sure, if we will be sons and daughters, then God will have to set me down and draw me a picture as to the exact differences between a spiritual son and daughter rather than an it! ;D ;D ;D
John
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Hi Doug,
I think it likely that they in the physical kingdom of the age to come shall be taught in much the same way that we are today, by the leading of God's spirit in their minds and hearts as they learn to obey the new way of life that will be shown to them. We today learn by reading and by sharing the trials of our journey among ourselves and as God miraculously graces us with deeper understanding through the indwelling of His holy spirit. In like manner it may be that we will teach each person righteousness through the operation of the spirit through our efforts as members of Lord Jesus' staff of assistants, the Lake of Fire.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
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Hello Jerry, good morning to you -
The conflict I have with you bringing the idea of the possibility of fornication if there being no marriage in the resurrection of the saints is that the point of heaven is that there will be absolutely no sin. That being said, how could there possibly be fornication. Marriage on earth is the physical sign.. the shadow of the spiritual marriage in heaven. The physical has the fornication, adultery, lust, homosexuality, bestiality and all other perversions of marriage and relationships. The spiritual is sin less. I can see where sexuality in the Kingdom Age is that all earthly perversions of true sexuality are overcome, especially the biggest perversion, selfishness. The highest pleasure is selfgiving and in the resurrection when all egotistic perversions are totally eliminated, all pleasure is increased. Whether this includes the physical sexual pleasure or not, remains to be seen. I don't see where the body is a mistake to be unmade in the resurrection, but a Divine work to show the splendor and glory of God's creativity. If there is no physical eating involved, and no giving birth, and no breathing and all the other functions the physical body performs... then why a stomach, intestines, a nose, mouth, ears, and all the organs inside the body? A person could go to extremes on this! We will all be hollow bubbles like Casper the Ghost! Walking thru walls and doors! I can't see God doing that to us. Like I said, God may unmake what we make... but He does not unmake what He makes!
Like JFK has mentioned - if there are no genders then we will have to be "its"! I just don't like the idea of viewing the resurrection life as looking at a Hallmark greeting card with cherubs flitting around! I just can't see the God Family like that!
Okay, with that being said.... I like you Jerry... after comparing all the scriptures given here on this thread.... am leaning to no physical sex in "heaven". :) Too many problems involved... just like here on earth. ;D
doug
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For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Mat 22:30
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 5:10
Not a priestess or a queen…
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2
Not daughters when he shall appear.
We shall be like Jesus. Like the angels of God in heaven. We will be the sons of God.
And at that time, we will be and having JOCOPELO :) ;)
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Yes this is my contemplations, but meditated on considering what is stated in Scriptures and not an emotional responce. Now of course these physical bodies that we have now are for a purpose that goes beyond this life. I believe the reason we are born into this physical creation is so we can have this life experience and develop the characteristics and personalities that make us the unique individuals we are. God wants children, but He wants many variations of this human intellect that we develop, He could make us robots, but that's not what He wants. He already has myriads of angels created in exact designs to serve Him.
Now with this physical process He is developing the incredible varied distinctions that this life brings about, the most obvious is the male and female. But just think about all the variables that are in this life so that no two people come out the same; family, social class, environment, location, era, and then we have our own set of personal circumstances; gender, personality, health and trials. We all turn out as unique individuals and I think it is totally designed that way and will not be lose in resurrection. Why would God erase the personality and characteristics that has taken so much time and effort to develop that make us such interesting individuals? I believe that is a major important reason that we have this life and what God is seeking, a huge family of unique and interesting beings. I think after resurrection we will recognize each other as who we are/were.
Though of course there will be a huge difference, when we lose the flesh in the resurrection that will remove the corruption it contains and the desires that go with it. We will no longer be carnal flesh, we will be born into the kingdom and be in the image of God and He certainly does not have the pulls/desires of the flesh. We will be "like Him" (1Jn 3:2) in that Christ was the perfect servant of the Father.
John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
When we are born into the kingdom, married to Christ and become one with God and all of the fleshly desire will vanish with the corrupt/carnal flesh. We will be "like" Christ in that our utmost desire will not be to self, but to do the will of the Father. At that time where would there be a place for the physical bestial sexual desires of the carnal fleshly appetite? The physical flesh is temporary, it is just the means needed to accomplish a greater purpose for us and we will leave all this base carnal desires behind.
What will it be like to put on the spiritual body, maybe Paul when he was taken to the 3rd heaven got an idea. But even then there was no way for him to explain it, as I guess it just doesn't compare to anything physical.
2Co 12:3-4 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
But Paul does say that God will not leave us completely in the dark on the mysteries and depths of God, who does reveal things as He sees fit.
1Co 2:9-10 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Very well stated Kat,
We are blessed to be able to share this understanding even as limited as our vision is at this time.
Thank you for sharing, Indianabob
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Hello, Doug
your quote:I just don't like the idea of viewing the resurrection life as looking at a Hallmark greeting card with cherubs flitting around! I just can't see the God Family like that!........... As long as that don't become an Idol of the Heart.But instead its what you see the Scripture teaches you will be fine.That's what matters what you see the Scriptures teach.And as you have shared in your post you are starting to see that there may not be sex in heaven ..."to many problems".Well,Its not about he who gets the most votes wins as Ray would say.It has to be because that's what you see not what the bt nation sees .I would say there is at least a small percentage that don't agree totally on some matters Ray has taught on.And Ray himself shared things with close friends that many people have know idea about.And are we to say Ray didn't pass on with many thoughts he never shared about even some of the things he had already taught on? Again He personally told me in the only phone conversation I had with him."What I have not put in print will go to the grave with me."We are fortunate that the moderators we have guard the forum and its teachings.But we are more fortunate that they allow us a little wiggle room to try to voice our opinion on something we may... Think...is different than what Ray has taught.As per the post the other day about where are they now...some of the former posters of bt nation.Well i don't think they left because they didn't believe what Ray Taught.That is so obvious.Its just we have to keep pressing on to the fullness of Christ.And if you were to ask them if they believed..... EVERY....Exact....as RaY taught it.. that all would say yes?So if you can roll with the punches that are sure to come your way.As you have been able to do so far.You will learn alot!IF you don't give in to the crowd because that what they think!God Bless!
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Amen onelovedread!
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That's why we are all here... to help each other... iron sharpens iron!
doug
Doug,I am glad that in your humility towards God and His Word that your eyes and ears can make the necessary spiritual adjustments needed to move forward and away from the milk of the Word, and towards the stronger meat, of discernment...
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Peace...Mark
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This is the only answer I can ever come up with..1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
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What I really wanted to know when I started this is . . . Will there be curvy roads in heaven where I can ride my motorcycle in heaven?
Just kidding! ;D
Lewis
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Galatians 3
Common English Bible (CEB)
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian.
26 You are all God’s children through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free; nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 12
12 Christ is just like the human body—a body is a unit and has many parts; and all the parts of the body are one body, even though there are many. 13 We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body, whether Jew or Greek, or slave or free, and we all were given one Spirit to drink.
Colossians 3
9 Don’t lie to each other. Take off the old human nature with its practices 10 and put on the new nature, which is renewed in knowledge by conforming to the image of the one who created it. 11 In this image there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all things and in all people.
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Interesting thread! We all know we are not to add to the word, but we all think about these things from time to time I am pretty certain. We do not know for sure exactly how we will be, but I know Jesus did eat in His perfected spiritual body. I know that the Sons of God in Genesis did marry with daughters of men and create giants. Now, if these Sons of God that were near the throne of God and counseled with Him could have sex, then we do not know for sure that one day we will not have sinless intimate relationships. I did not say we would, but we do not know for sure. If it is there, then God purposed it and does not matter what we think.
We have to remember there are ages ahead of reconciling all living things to God, but then after that we will have many years ahead of us lol. Come on guys, I know there will not be years, but just saying. We cannot even fathom the great things God will allow us to do and even think. Please, let's not be self righteous and think that we will sit around all day and just sing. Come on, God is awesome and amazing. I feel certain there will be endless adventures and exciting times ahead after He has become all in all. I for one will be ready for all He has for us! It will be perfect and there will be no more sin, so do not worry about that :).
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I know that the Sons of God in Genesis did marry with daughters of men and create giants. Now, if these Sons of God that were near the throne of God and counseled with Him could have sex, then we do not know for sure that one day we will not have sinless intimate relationships. I did not say we would, but we do not know for sure. If it is there, then God purposed it and does not matter what we think.
Ireland, this is a myth...it's not true.
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim [These were a human beings but of a different culture] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. [NASV]
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. [NIV]
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Hi Ireland,
I hope these discussions are not a question of our own self righteousness and do not believe that is directing our answers. I do not casually study the Scripture, I look for all the Scripture I can find on a subject and then also study the context that the person is speaking from. But there are also commentaries that can lend knowledge of the customs of the times and other facts that help. Now with all this to help, which most everybody has to use, the determining factor in gaining spiritual understanding is the Holy Spirit indwelling and I believe God does/is leading His Elect to greater understanding.
So regarding the "sons of god," we have established many times on this forum and Ray also clearly showed that these were just men, but were called such because they knew and obeyed the true God.
I truly believe it is a carnal desire to hang onto the hope that we will still participant in the physical things we enjoy in this life, such as sex, after resurrection into spiritual beings. That is a lot like what the religions of the world teaches, that in the next life we will have and enjoy our greatest physical pleasures. It certainly is hard to grasp that there truly is an existence far superior to what we know as this physical life and once we enter it all that is physical will have no temptation whatsoever. May we all strive to look beyond the here and now to something that can not even be compared to what we have in this life.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
v. 10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I truly believe it is a carnal desire to hang onto the hope that we will still participant in the physical things we enjoy in this life, such as sex, after resurrection into spiritual beings. That is a lot like what the religions of the world teaches, that in the next life we will have and enjoy our greatest physical pleasures. It certainly is hard to grasp that there truly is an existence far superior to what we know as this physical life and once we enter it all that is physical will have no temptation whatsoever. May we all strive to look beyond the here and now to something that can not even be compared to what we have in this life.
I agree. All I know is that Jesus Christ never had sex because He didn't have a wife, and Paul the apostle went without a wife, too, at least that's what I understand him to mean when he said he wished the unmarried and widows could be like him: 1 Corinthians 7:8 (NASB95) But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.
When Paul was caught up in the third paradise, he came back a changed man to the point that he was more than willing to go without a wife (sex) and without riches, he took beatings and was scorned and imprisoned. There was something he saw that he wasn't permitted to speak about. It was something that couldn't hold a candle to the earthly marriage bed -- that's what I gather:
1 Cor. 7
Principles for Marriage
1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”
2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
...
6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.
7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.
. . .
The Unmarried and the Widowed
25 Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
26 I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is.
27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.
28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.
. . .
31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.
32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.
33 But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife,
34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.
35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon yo, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
...
38 So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better.
...
40 Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
I have nothing against marriage, but I've seen too many marriages fail in my personal lifetime. I'll never be convinced sex is the be all and end all. I am convinced that Paul saw something in that third paradise and I don't know what it was but it's clear that he had no problem going without to attain to it. And that's saying A LOT because Paul was a man. :)
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Will we be sexual beings in the Kingdom of God?
I do not know. Why don't I know? Because God has not shown me two or three scriptures that clearly answer the question presented.
Are you a scriptural scholar? Do you know the answer to the above question?
If you are, please present the two scriptures to back up your answer.
Please understand, do not give me one scripture. The scriptures teach us, multiple times, that there must be at least two witnesses to establish the truth of a matter.
Also, please do not present your editorial statements or comments. They are not scripture. With two scriptures, the Spirit of God will give understanding of a spiritual truth.
;D Now, to quote Ray, I will hold my breath until I see the two scriptures................................
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Hi John,
We know the Scripture where Jesus answered how a person will become after the resurrection "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven." Well Matthew, Mark and Luke bare witness to this, that is 3 witnesses.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
v. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are as the angels in Heaven.
Luke 20:35 but they who shall be counted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
;D No cigar. I'm still holding my breathe.
I agree with those scriptures you quoted. They prove that there will not be marriage among resurrected spiritual beings.
But those scriptures say nothing about sex. Marriage is a noun. Sex is a noun. But they don't mean the same thing. We have to pay close attention to all the words.
I know you are aware of Ray's article on marriage. He brought out that the scriptural definition of marriage concerned that it was a covenant relationship, that it concerned the ceremony of marriage, and also especially a wedding feast. Love or sex was not a requisite element of a scriptural marriage.
John
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John, no there will not be marriage or sexual activity among the elect, because they will be married to Christ!
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
The Elect are married to Christ at the resurrection, all of our devotion will be to God from then on. If any were in a physical marriage, that is dissolved at death and so at resurrection they belong to God and any sexual activity with another person would be fornication. So there's no place for physical sexuality, which would be fornication, for those in the kingdom are the bride/married to Christ. Of course there is much said in the Scripture about how fornication (both spiritual and physical) is wrong.
1Co 6:13 "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"--and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality (fornication), but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello,
Kat with all do respect to your comment:I going to use it only to get my thought across.I am thankful that I am sure you wont be offended by it or that I am trying to attack you.Because I totally respect yours and everyone elses opinon here on the forum.
So regarding the "sons of god," we have established many times on this forum and Ray also clearly showed that these were just men, but were called such because they knew and obeyed the true God.
I hope this is not like Joe Paterno statue were this is the standard so that settles it.I have plenty of Scriptures that makes ... Me.. believe who the Sons of God are.
I am not saying this is your way of thinking or this is what you meant.Just MY own thought.I can throw this scriptures out there.
Job 38:7 When the morningH1242 starsH3556 sangH7442 together,H3162 and allH3605 the sonsH1121 of GodH430 shouted for joy? Was this the "Sons OF SETH"?
Gen 6:2 That the sonsH1121 of GodH430 sawH7200 (H853) the daughtersH1323 of menH120 thatH3588 theyH2007 were fair;H2896 and they tookH3947 them wivesH802 of allH4480 H3605 whichH834 they chose.H977..Is this the "Sons of Seth'?
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) grea
So ,I just want to say..That there is a lot of Scripture that I can give to make a "case" if you will.But here is the facts:
1. Cant teach on Forum.
2. Many people seem to have already established what they believe and thats the way they do things.
3. Why try to give a "case" when you have know the cards are stacked?
a.If you try thats teaching your out.
b.If you challenge your either need to read Rays teaching again or its a "myth".
c.Or the very worst one...You can see clearly of a matter which is only a opinon because even though you give Scripture you some how didnt see it the right way?
So,Just to make the record straight I am so thankful for what" "God"... did through His vessel Ray Smith.And some may say well if you dont like it truth than why are you here?
Which is a logical question.In which I would say .....were Am I to go?To the church on every corner? :'(
So thanks for listening to me ramble God Bless.
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So ,I just want to say..That there is a lot of Scripture that I can give to make a "case" if you will.But here is the facts:
Do you agree with any of the teaching that Ray espoused? If you answer yes, then why do you want to debate things that either goes against what Ray taught or bring in new teachings?
1. Cant teach on Forum.
You agreed to this rule when joining the forum, there are many posts explaining why this rule is in effect
2. Many people seem to have already established what they believe and thats the way they do things.
Sure people here can believe whatever they want.
3. Why try to give a "case" when you have know the cards are stacked?
Why are they stacked? You knew the rules when you joined but now want to ignore them ?
a.If you try thats teaching your out.
You are not out, but you may asked to not to teach or have your posts removed.
b.If you challenge your either need to read Rays teaching again or its a "myth".
If you are here to challenge then you probably won't feel welcome. I for one don't think I would ever call your beliefs a "myth" I may not agree but anyone on this forum is free to believe whatever they want.
c.Or the very worst one...You can see clearly of a matter which is only a opinon because even though you give Scripture you some how didnt see it the right way?
Again, we are not here to debate. And we are not here to change your mind. Why do you want to debate?
So,Just to make the record straight I am so thankful for what" "God"... did through His vessel Ray Smith.And some may say well if you dont like it truth than why are you here?
I would never ask why you are here, but I would ask why do you want to debate something that you don't agree with rather than growing in what we can agree with? There are hundreds if not thousands of bible based forums and websites that will let you debate and sharpen your beliefs until you die, but that is not the purpose of our forum
Which is a logical question.In which I would say .....were Am I to go?To the church on every corner?
I hope you can stay here, I hope you can grow with the teachings that are here and I hope you can continue on your journey with your other questions by your own studies or study with others of like mind by PM's, emails or start your own forum and website.
Craig
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Hi Jerry,
According to E-Sword there are 11 places in which the phrase "sons of God" is found in the Bible. Job has 3 and I believe it can be determined that all the places outside of Job is referring to humans. Now the Scripture that you referred to in Job is speaking of a time when these "sons of God" are rejoicing at the creation.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
That had to be before people were created on earth, so we can safely presume that it was angels. Here is where Ray's speaks on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------
It says, “In a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” But then we read something over in Job 38.
Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
v. 2 Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
v. 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare you unto Me.
v. 4 Where was you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, it to Me if you have understanding.
v. 5 Who determined the measures thereof, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it?
v. 6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
v. 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Whoops, wait a minute, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” And this is the beginning of things? Apparently not. What was the first created, the heaven or the earth? The heavens... and the earth. So when we come to the earth, the heavens are already created. And when He creates the earth, low and behold we have the morning stars shouting for joy. Where did they come from, if this is in the beginning?
Alright, first of all when it says morning stars, this is the breaking of day, the dawn. So what is the breaking of day or dawn? That’s when the earth moves and the sun appears to go up and come down. The whole thing is working! Everything is already working, the earth is turning and now these sons of the dawn, of this turning earth, are shouting for joy and singing.
But we learn in Job 1, that these sons of God presented themselves to Him and Satan came among them. Remember what Satan was saying about Job, and God said, well you can do anything you want, but spare his life and so on. These are the angelic beings, we’re not told where they are created in Genesis. But now we know. They had to be created between the heavens and the earth. So by the time the earth was created, they are already here. Now we got the proof.
So He created the heavens and He creates the earth, and then God had to probably say, ‘alright turn it on.’ ‘Turn it, spin it.’ Okay now we got day and night. ‘Now push it, push it around the sun.’ Ok now we have the seasons. The days and nights, and seasons, it’s all starting to work. And the sons of God are shouting for joy and singing.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Craig!
I never want to debate what Ray has taught here only discuss.I realize that through pm we can talk through the teachings of Rays.Just because I don't see everything Ray has taught as Gospel doesn't mean I am trying to debate anything.If I pose a question does that equal debate?IF I am at your house I will play by your rules.I have no problem with that.I guess in some ways its like the church on every corner it breaks your heart to see them content in their teachings that's all.So thanks for your time Craig and I appreciate your kindness in the matter.
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Thanks Kat!Your a Jewell!!!will send a response ;D
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Don't let your heart be broken for me. There's not a single area of my life or my understanding that hasn't been affected by what's on BT. I don't see everything the way I saw things (or sometimes imagined things) when I first came. There has been change and growth, but it's been change and growth INTO, not away from, what I've learned since coming here.
Just speaking for myself, but I haven't encountered ANY other teaching which does anything other than draw me away from the joy I experienced those first few weeks or tried to get me off on some wild-turkey chase down some meaningless theological rabbit-hole.
The more we study (and LIVE), the more 'true' truth becomes. The Bible is a big book and others have taken a different way in and come to many of the same conclusions. But nobody I've encountered has been so careful with the Word and working through the 'apparent' contradictions in Scripture and the Spiritual contradictions between the Churches and the Word of God. The way Ray 'comes in' is exactly the way I needed. Still is, still do.
This is not a church. It's a web-forum. If it was a different type of web-forum, I wouldn't be typing this message today because I would NEVER have joined it.
So no pity for me, please. I can't say any of the above for any church I've ever attended on any street-corner...including the internet.
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This is neither 'official' nor complete, but here's what I think of when I think of someone 'teaching'.
He or she is making a conscious effort to get someone else to follow a train of thought to get to a conclusion.
In fundamental terms, is Ray under that understanding a 'teacher'? Yes he is, imo.
The obligation of a teacher is to spend the time and energy necessary to teach. The obligation of his/her student is to spend the time and energy necessary to follow that train of thought to its conclusion--whether or not the student ultimately understands or agrees with the conclusion.
I don't know how many 'pages' are on B-T. Certainly many hundreds...probably more than a thousand with all the transcripts, emails, etc. Clearly Ray spend the time and energy necessary.
What about my part as a 'student'? At the very least, I've put in the time and energy necessary to follow his train of thought. I'm unapologetic in saying that I agree with and find not just scripturally accurate but spiritually compelling about 98% of his 'mini-conclusions' and 100% of his major conclusions--depending on how one defines 'mini' and 'major'. :D I define them for myself. (I can't say that about every forum post...far from it). Of the 100%, in terms of importance, I knew about 10% before I got here. In terms of background scripture, I knew about 70%. Still, everything hangs together just fine even minus 2%. :D I'm pretty much teaching myself at this point. And NOBODY can live my life for me. That's really where we learn.
Comes a time, I think, when 'teachers' (those who make a conscious effort to to get someone else to follow a train of thought to reach a conclusion) need to pick their venue. A web-forum--especially THIS web-forum--is not well-designed to 'teach' but works pretty well in helping people learn. It's WAY too much to ask readers to jump off one train of thought and invest the effort to board and ride another one. It's especially so when the 'teacher' hasn't done, or is (for whatever reason) unable to do, quite what Ray has.
1. Taught 'us' who are already 'here'.
2. Answered thousands of questions about his train of thought.
Do we really want dozens of trains of thought answering 1000's of questions on the forum? God help us. It's confusing enough as it is, at times. :D
I reckon if anybody wants to risk the scriptural warnings concerning 'teachers', they need to risk finding a suitable place to take them. The rules don't say 'stop teaching', just 'take it elsewhere'.
I hope nobody takes this as swinging the hammer too hard.
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I hope nobody takes this as swinging the hammer too hard.
Just wanted to say you're fine by me. I'm grateful for all your gentle reminders. :)
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Dave, We will find out who the heros are when we get there.And it not up to you if... I...OR WHO..I..feel pity for ever!
Penn State had a hero TO DAVE!