bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: gudazdead on July 18, 2007, 02:57:16 PM
-
Ray mentions in one of the papers that I read that you should strictly stay away from witches and sorcery. Well, I get the idea sort've, because it is bad, but why should you stay away from these things specifically? What effect will it have on a person, what kind've trouble could you get into, how would it interfere with what ray writes and speaks about?
Thank you.
-
You know, questions like that, things like that.
-
Because these Witches and Sorcers entertain spirits other than the Holy Spirit.
-
I say, if scriptures say to stay away that is good enough reason for me. :)
Besides, I look at it like this, if it were a poisonous snake and I knew it could strike and bite me, I am not willing to take that chance that it will...why tempt the very nature of the animal.
Sue Ann
-
Here's a good one for anyone who wants to jump in. :)
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
How come some spirits are in prison and others are free to roam and cause mayhem at will?
I have often thought about this :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Hi,
Are not spirits in prison ........ unbelievers, those in bondage to sin. Also God ALLOWS satan and his demons to wander.
Always search for His truths.
Sandie
-
Hi gudazdead,
I think you have to understand the source for what witches and sorcery, and I believe that is magic.
Main Entry: mag·ic
Magian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer, of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian magus sorcerer
1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : ENCHANTMENT
3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
(Merrian Webster)
As I see this, it all means to seek to have power outside of God. These I believe is a religion in and unto itself.
It formed an essential element in many ancient religions, especially among the Persians, Chaldeans and Egyptians. (Smith Bible dictionary)
I think anybody who is seeking to serve and obey God would want to stay far away from this.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Lev 19: 31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 20: 6, 27 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people..... A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deut 18: 10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Rev 21: 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1Sam 15: 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
2Chr 33: 6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Gal 5: 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
That's just a FEW OF 'EM :o by searching the words wizard, witch, sorcerer/y, enchanter, diviner, etc.
Take care, Janice :)
-
So let me get this straight. You guys do believe in Sorcery, and Witchery, it's just that it is obviously forbidden in the Scripture. But you don't deny it. Am I correct in that assumption?
-
Wow. Sorin, good question.
I guess I never believed in any of that stuff.
I alwys thought that if demons, ghosts, magic, and all that were real they would do more damage or take over. Even at Gettysburg I didn't believe in the ghosts there- they really believe the soldiers still walk around. To what purpose???
What about Hollywoods pretend sorcery-like Harry Potter?
-
Wow. Sorin, good question.
I guess I never believed in any of that stuff.
I alwys thought that if demons, ghosts, magic, and all that were real they would do more damage or take over. Even at Gettysburg I didn't believe in the ghosts there- they really believe the soldiers still walk around. To what purpose???
Yeah, if ghosts still walk around; then that would obviously prove Scripture to be wrong (the dead know not anything, no consciousness, nor perception, nor knowledge, nor device...etc..).
What about Hollywoods pretend sorcery-like Harry Potter?
Well, many Christians seem to have a problem with that, but I just laugh at their stupidity. And I don't even like Harry Potter. But the Christian protests I have seen were just down right idiotic, and laughable.
-
Hi Sorin, yes, I think that's basically right. In many verses from God's word it is apparent that some people have been given to these sorts of actions. However, in other, different verses of Scripture, such as God creates evil, etc., [see next paragraph for verses on this] which are good to know, we as readers of the Scriptures are able to put the idea together that these actions of people such as witchcraft, etc., as much as God has indicated He abhors them, are part of His overall Plan, and are ultimately of benefit to us His children.
Related verses about God and His creation of evil: Isa 45: 6-7, Lam 3: 38, Eccl 1: 13, 2Sam 12: 11, Jer 4: 6, 26: 3, Josh, 23: 5, Job 1: 8-12, 2: 10, Amos 3: 6, 1Kings 22: 21-23, 2Chr 18: 20-22, Rom 9: 21-23, Judg 9: 23, Psa 105: 24-25, Amos 3: 3-6.
I have a very thin children's book with beautiful drawings that helps depict this general concept of God's evil entitled The Little Soul and the Sun. And although it has nothing whatsoever to do with God's word directly, it does so in principle, and I have found it a great resource, especially in sharing with others who couldn't give a flip about Scriptures at all... but they like this pretty picture book and grasp the concept. It goes like this...
The scene starts out in heaven with God (the BIG light) and all the souls He's created around Him (the little lights), and everything is nice and VERY BRIGHT. One soul/light steps forward and says something like "I know that I am light, but I want to feel what it feels like to be light. God says sure, but there's only one thing... there is nothing else BUT light... you are like a candle in the sun... and since you can't see yourself as light in the light, I'll surround you with darkness! The little soul got excited and exclaimed it wanted to become the light that experiences FORGIVENESS.
So another little soul/light stepped forward and volunteered to cloak himself and become dark so the little light could SEE and FEEL HIMSELF AS LIGHT, and the cloaked one did something BAD to the little light, so he could experience FORGIVENESS after the bad act. And the first little soul was so happy for soul who became dark out love for his friend, but the darkened one simply asked not to be forgotten as to Who and What He Really Was (underneath!). They were both SO HAPPY going into this pre-arranged arrangement. You get the idea.
So, that's my take on it. Enjoy! Janice
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/Star.jpg)
-
Well I do believe there is something to it, I don't really understand it though. I've never been interested in any of it, not even magic shows.
We can see it mentioned in the scripture to much, to think there is nothing to it. I'm not talking about ghosts, but the power through the use of witchcraft and sorcery/magic and it's evil.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts.
2Ch 33:6 Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.
And we have the story of Simon the sorcerer. All the people seemed to think he had great power, but the truth of him was revealed when he tried to buy the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
v. 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
v. 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
v. 18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
v. 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
v. 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
v. 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
v. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
v. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
Act 19:18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
v. 19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
I AIN'T SCARED O' NO GHOSTS! ;) ;) ;)
(Ghostbusters music in the background)
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/KittenWink.gif)
:> Janice
-
Eph 5:11 Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but INSTEAD let your lives be so in contrast as to EXPOSE and REPROVE and CONVICT them. 12. For it is a shame even to speak of or mention the things that such people practice in secret.
-
Well I do believe there is something to it, I don't really understand it though. I've never been interested in any of it, not even magic shows.
We can see it mentioned in the scripture to much, to think there is nothing to it. I'm not talking about ghosts, but the power through the use of witchcraft and sorcery/magic and it's evil.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts.
2Ch 33:6 Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.
And we have the story of Simon the sorcerer. All the people seemed to think he had great power, but the truth of him was revealed when he tried to buy the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
v. 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
v. 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
v. 18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
v. 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
v. 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
v. 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
v. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
v. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
Act 19:18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
v. 19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
While there were many that practiced sorcery, is there any thing in Scripture that leads us to believe it was real? It seems to me that they were nothing more than the David Copperfields and David Blaines of the day, trying to deceive the masses with tricks and lies. That's what makes it evil, don't you think?
-
I know Kat will want to respond to your question but here are my thoughts to add.
Ex 4:1 And Moses answered, But behold, they will not believe me or listen to and obey my voice; for they will say, The Lord has not appeared to you. 2. And the Lord said to him, What is that in your hand? and he said, A rod.3. and He said, Cast it on the ground.And he did so and it became a serpent, the symbol of royal and divine power worn on the crown of the Pharaohs; and Moses fled from before it.
Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do ALL these things.
For me that makes it real.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
We are in agreement that God creates all things, including evil :)
However, my question is more along the lines of, did God create witchcraft and sorcery, as in, is it real? Does it really exist or is it all fake? I guess I have the same question as Sorin.
So let me get this straight. You guys do believe in Sorcery, and Witchery, it's just that it is obviously forbidden in the Scripture. But you don't deny it. Am I correct in that assumption?
???
-
I guess your answer lies in whether you believe that the rod Moses threw down and turned into a serpent was real or not. Did the Scripture lie and say the rod was a figment of Moses imagination or did it turn into a REAL SNAKE.
For me it turned into a real snake not a fake one...snakes bite and they kill for real. The wages of sin is death and that too is for real.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Ah. I don't consider that to be witchcraft or sorcery, since it was done by the Lord, not by a witch or sorcerer.
Exo 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me nor listen to my voice. For they will say, Jehovah has not appeared to you.
Exo 4:2 And Jehovah said to him, What is this in your hand? And he said, A staff.
Exo 4:3 And He said, Throw it on the ground. And he threw it on the ground. And it became a serpent. And Moses ran from it.
Exo 4:4 And Jehovah said to Moses, Put forth your hand and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand, --
Exo 4:5 so that they may believe that Jehovah, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.
-
Ah. I don't consider that to be witchcraft or sorcery, since it was done by the Lord
Yes you and the whole of Christiandom will agree with you Carol70 ;D :D
To quote Ray's teaching:
ONE OF THESE CREATED WICKED FORCES WAS A SERPENT
“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made” (Gen. 3:1).
This God-created serpent deceived Eve (I Tim. 2:14). God “made” “the serpent” who “deceived” Mother Eve. Notice that God did not create something called “Lucifer,” that was “…more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.” If this “serpent” is indeed, “the Devil,” then the Scripture plainly tells us that this was a beast “…which the Lord God had made.”
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
God is the cause of every evil and every good in the real universe seen and not seen!
If you want to know if the principalities, and powers of the rulers of the darkness of this world and if spiritual wickedness is real, the answer is yes....it is real.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against the flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the MASTER SPIRITS WHO ARE THE WORLD RULERS OF THIS PRESENT DARKNESS, against THE SPIRIT FORCES OF WICKEDNESS in the heavenly supernatural sphere.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
-
Ok. Then the proof of the existence of witchcraft, sorcery, and the like lies in Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against the flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the MASTER SPIRITS WHO ARE THE WORLD RULERS OF THIS PRESENT DARKNESS, against THE SPIRIT FORCES OF WICKEDNESS in the heavenly supernatural sphere.
That's all the proof I need.
HOWEVER, I stand by my earlier statement that when the Lord turned Moses' rod into a snake, it was not an act of witchcraft or sorcery, unless the definition of witchcraft means to turn sticks into serpents. Maybe it does... Hey, I'm still learning here. :)
-
Sorry, I just can't let this go.
If the act of turning Moses' rod into a serpent, as performed by Jesus, who is the God of the Old Testament, is considered sorcery, then that would mean he committed a sin, which we KNOW can't be true! Therefore, while there may be those out there who can perform sorcery, Jesus NEVER did!!!
-
Hi Carol,
I can understand your question about the reality of sorcery, magic, witchcraft or whatever you want to call it.
The way I see this, is powers that are used, not in the service of God. When someone does anything by the power of God, it is for the good and is not evil. When people try to use the forces they do not understand to have power, it is for the lust of the flesh and evil. Certainly these powers are ultimately come from God, as He is sovereign, but He does not use them for evil as man does and it is just another means for this experience of evil.
In the account in Exodus, where Moses rod turned into a snake, the magicians preformed the same as Moses did on this and other occasions.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers. And they, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.
v. 12 For each man threw down his rod, and they became snakes. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Exo 8:7 And the magicians did so with their secret arts, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
Something to consider did Satan have power to afflict Job? Certainly it was given to him from God, but Satan actually did evil to Job physically. I think he is still doing these things to people.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."
So couldn't this same power used to afflict Job, be worked on other people and sorcery be the means that Satan carries it out? It is not God actually doing this evil to people, it would be people using these Satanic powers. So if people so foolishly seek to use powers other than from God, I would think Satan is ready to oblige them.
But I think a lot of it is not from supernatural mean, but just evil done by people.
Here is some information I found to explain what this sorcery is.
Magic - Witchcraft
The existence of the black art and its attendant practices can be traced from the time of the ancient Egyptians and Persians, from the Greeks and Hebrews, to the period when reports of black magic were most numerous, during the Middle Ages, thus forming an unbroken chain. In medieval magic may be found a degraded form of popular pagan rites—the ancient gods had become devils, their mysteries orgies, their worship sorcery.
The fraternity had grades from the pretenders, charlatans, and diviners of the common people to the various secret societies and orders of initiates, among whom were kings, queens, popes, and dignitaries of church and state. In these advanced levels, knowledge and ritual were carefully cherished and preserved in manuscripts, some of which still exist. (I think we heard about some of this in Ray's latest paper)
Witchcraft has seen a resurgence in the twentieth century with neo-pagan, Wiccan, and Dianic traditions spreading throughout the United States, Europe, South America, and Australia. Black magic is also still practiced in many traditional cultural groups around the world including the United States, where it may be seen among voodoo practitioners, brujos, and others who practice the black arts.
I'm not sure most of these use any supernatural powers at all, but they carry out some hideous crimes to pratice their black art. Here is some of what I found.
For the actual rites the light came from candles made from the fat of corpses and fashioned in the form of a cross; the bowls were made from skulls, those of parricides being of greatest virtue;
Another potent instrument of magic was the mandragora, unearthed from beneath gallows where corpses were suspended, tied to a dog. The dog was then killed by a mortal blow, after which its soul was to pass into the fantastic root, attracting also that of the hanged man.
To make themselves invisible, it is said that sorcerers used an unguent compounded from the incinerated bodies of newborn infants mixed with the blood of nightbirds. (Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia)
It's all a terrible evil that will be burned out of any that practice it.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Kat, that was excellent - thank you!!!
-
In 1Samuel 28, Saul seeks out a medium to bring up Samuel from the dead, which she does. Now since the rest of scripture shows that the dead are sleeping in the ground, and are indeed dead, then the source of the apparition must have been of the supernatural, specifically the darker powers. The scripture here doesn't specifically say this is sorcery or witchcraft, but to be consorting with a "familiar spirit" was just as much forbidden. It all comes from the same dark source.
So I think that this event in Samuel is more proof that the existence of sorcery is real, that the darker powers can be used to manifest strange things in our realm. I wouldn't want to mess with it.
Peace,
Diana
-
God uses Satan over the nations as He wills Satan to will, not as Satan himself “free wills.” God uses the nations themselves to will as He wills the nations to will, not as the nations themselves “free will.” If we are to believe the Scriptures rather than the heresy of men, where does Satan or any of the nations possess “free will?” LOF Part 15C
Only God can use evil for good. Can any man use evil, RANK STARK EVIL, for good? I don't think so.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Arcturus,
As you brought out, it is Satan whom God uses by His will/purpose in this present evil age. Mankind is so nieve in what they do, thinking they have a 'free will' in using the power of evil (magic-sorcery) for their benefit. Jesus said that satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat (Luke 22:31), I think that is happening to a lot of people.
1John 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
Here this from Ray's no. 2 paper in LOF series. It goes into how Satan is working in this world, I think magic and sorcery is one of man's (with satan's help) ways of going against God, as He intends them to do.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ------------------------------------------------------------
And so it is that neither man nor Satan can do anything contrary to the intention of God. God has a will that includes a final destiny of total perfection of His whole creation. God has set man and Satan (his very name means adversary) AGAINST HIS OWN WILL for a period of time. But during this period when everyone goes against God’s will, God INTENDS them to do so. And when God no longer "intends" for there to be any more adversaries or enemies opposing Him or His will, He will remove all such opposition (See I Cor. 15:21-28). ALL OF GOD’S WILL, WILL THEN BE DONE!
You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speakes a lie, he speakes of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).
"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn’t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy heel, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).
This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve’s seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "Your are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father": a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:8). And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).
"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong’s #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong’s #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:
(A) "And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, ‘From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).
It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.
(B) "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).
It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
To Gudazdead and Sorin, to clarify my position, ALL evil is given from God. It is real to the extent that God gives it to be real, to include witchcraft, etc., etc. I didn't list at least 17 verses from the Word of God in my previous post regarding God and His evil if it wasn't REAL/ACTUAL/DOES EXIST per Him. I suggest you copy and paste them and print them out and stick them somewhere where you will access them readily.
I didn't mean to make light of it by siting a children's art book that tells a picture story of how this might have come to pass in fictional terms. [This book, easily flipped through in ten minutes is still a great tool for presenting God's sovereignty and that He WILL save all to reach those who are not ready to hear scriptures.]
But I still ain't afraid of no "ghosts" (there ain't none, period) or evil because... well, just because... it would be really silly at my station in life... very silly. ;D [The One Who is in me is greater and has already conquered the world, 1John 4: 4] ;)
With love, Janice
-
Hi Kat
Thank you for the addition. What you say : Jesus said that satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat (Luke 22:31), I think that is happening to a lot of people.
For me it follows that Satan buffets too! If we consider the teachings from Ray’s – PAULS Splinter in the flesh http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html This teaching makes it pretty real!
Janice : I found this explanation on the web that further clarifies what is real and what is not. I have taken the liberty to edit out the ideas in the text that do not align with what we understand here in BT. Also if you read the teaching through Ray on just what was the splinter in the flesh of Paul, you might reconsider your views. ;D
From the web on familiar spirits I quote:
Question: "What are familiar spirits?"
Answer: The term familiar refers to a relational aspect of association--servitude. In the Old Testament we find that familiar spirits are mentioned more than a few times: Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:9-14; 1 Samuel 28:7-9; 2 Kings 21:6, 23:24; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Isaiah 8:19, 19:3, 29:4. A familiar spirit, then, is a demon who identifies itself with another person. We also see similar demon-human relationships in the New Testament: Matthew 9:32, 12:43-45, 15:22, 17:15-18; Mark 5:1-20, 9:17-26; Acts 16:16-18, 19:15-16; 1 Timothy 4:1.
In the above mentioned verses, the Bible speaks very clearly regarding familiar spirits. They are demons…..They use people to spread lies and deceit,………. Knowingly opening oneself to the work of demons is an evil thing: "For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering. And do not let your people practice fortune-telling or sorcery, or allow them to interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. Anyone who does these things is an object of horror and disgust to the LORD," (Deuteronomy 18:10-12a).
Some avenues through which demons, a.k.a. "familiar spirits," are given entrance to a person's life are: divination, transcendental meditation, visualization, necromancy, witchcraft, drugs, and alcohol. These are all activities that believers are exhorted, commanded even, to avoid. Instead, we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, with love, with joy, and with the fullness of life that comes from Jesus Christ. We are also to be on guard, "For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms," (Ephesians 6:12).
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
As we have seen, the scriptures do tell us that there are witches and sorcerers, and that they do have power. We are to not do that. Why?
It seems to me that this power is to exert control over people, events, the world. The particular sorcerer wants to be powerful, and exalted, and to make a great name for him/herself. He thinks of himself very highly, better than all these others who do not have this power. Then he want the praise and adulation of these lesser types. He puts himself on the throne of his life and thinks he has control over all things. Sound familiar?
Love,
Ursula
-
Rodger you say:
....focusing on these idiots rather then on God
So RIGHT!...and to add:
Those who believe in duel powers at war against one another in a bid to acquire Sovereignty do not know that God is ALL MIGHTY and Sovereign and there is non beside Him.
Many are seduced to focus on the idiocy of believing that Satan wars against God and has free will but in truth it is God who instructs Satan just how far he can go and Satan obeys! Satans lunch is man not God! ;D :D...especially deceived and foolish mankind believing in the illusion of power some profess to have.
Jer17:5 Thus says the Lord: Cursed with great evil is the strong man who trusts in and relies on frail man, making weak human flesh his arm, and whose mind and heart turn aside from the Lord.
Jer 23 : 16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: DO NOT LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF FALSE PROPHETS who prophesy to you. They teach you vanity, emptiness, falsity, and futility and fill you with vain hopes....
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
-
Acturus-- I LOVE your scriptures from Jeremiah-- SOOO true!
Roger-- I want to hear about the 2 penguins who were vacationing in the Bahamas!
greetings everyone-- I'm BACK!! ;D
joyce
-
that there are witches and sorcerers, and that they do have power
What a joke
lions, tigers, and bears, Oh my,,,,,,,,
All is of God.
I truthfully doubt any sorceror, witch, wizard, soothsayer, talisman, shame man,warlock, druid, spiritman, vodoo, magician, politician, evangelist, preacher, deacon, reverend,....ect can ever express one bit of power, unless God choose these idiots, to impose a more Spiritual power to the unbeliever. ((person who is focusing on these idiots rather then on God)).
The mention of these fools in Scripture, are in FACT in parables, which nullifies any beliefs of these fools or thier power. what a JOKE !
Hey !! Did you hear about the one were 2 penguins were vacationing in the Bahamas.....?
Rodger
Hi Rodger, Your posts are usually awesome but this one sounds a little presumptuous (my opinion only :) )
By whose power are these "so called" idiots conducting their lives? Are they free to act in any other way? Are they not also the work of your Fathers hand, molded perfectly according to his purpose? How then can they be idiots? By caling such as these the same, are you not faulting their steps that are not theirs to direct, and totally igoring why God has purposed their life in this way?
You speak of the nullification the belief of these "Fools" yet who is the fool? The one who is blindly following the purpose God has given them, ignorant of all truth, because the truth is not yet theirs to see, hear or understand. NOT because of their chosing, but because of God's, or the one ignoring God's spiritual purpose?
How then can they be fools, without God being foolish also, for is HE not the one who purposed such as these this way? Of course HE did, but NOT so that we can laugh at and ridcule them, nor so that we can pity them. But rather that we can with all gratitude, thank and praise God for showing us his "Spirit of Truth" of dragging us to HIM and having compassion and patience with us second to none.
Such Idiots and Fools are to teach us humility in body and spirit, and this is a lesson we should never ignore.
I hope you take this post in the spirit it was written and that is a gentle reminder that all is of God and if one is unhappy with any of it, it is God they are unhappy with.
Your in Christ our Lord,
Darren
-
Darren
You state:
How then can they be fools, without God being foolish also,
WHAT? …who said or implied such a thing? God knows evil. Does that make God evil? NO!
You continue :
for is HE not the one who purposed such as these this way? Of course HE did, but NOT so that we can laugh at and ridicule
them,
I believe you have not understood that when Rodger said “What a Joke” that he did not mean joke as in humorous but as in sarcasm and sarcasm is complimentary as it is intelligent wit!
You say Darren:
nor so that we can pity them. But rather that we can with all gratitude, thank and praise God for showing us his "Spirit of Truth" of dragging us to HIM and having compassion and patience with us second to none.
That is false Darren....what you are saying is be like the Pharisee who thanked God with many words that he was not anything like the tax collector who was beating his chest and repenting? Jesus warned against what you advocate Darren! Jesus warned us NOT TO BE grateful compared to others like the Pharisee expressed in his prayer up to God!
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
What Jesus did say is rejoice NOT that the spirits are subject to you Luke 10: 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.( they have to be subject to you FIRST…that being under your foot, heal on the serpents head so to speak and then ) rejoice rather that your names are recorded in heaven meaning that you are acting and behaving like Christ.
What you say to Rodger about all his previous posts being compared to this one that you evaluate as presumptuous, shows great elevation in the standards of Rodgers contributions in the Forum. If in fact this post is presumptuous then your comment is a huge compliment! How so?
Presumption – bold, forward, a belief or assumption based on reasonable evidence, an inference of the truth of a fact from other facts proved, admitted, or judicially noticed. To take as proved until contrary evidence is produced.
Ref : Collins English Dictionary.
So where is the contrary evidence Darren? (Rhetorical question.) :D
You say Darren : Rodger, Your posts are usually awesome but this one sounds a little presumptuous (my opinion only )
so add awesome which you describe Rodgers earlier posts as being, to presumptuous and that is THE WAY TO GO Rodger!! ;D
Presumption and sarcasm are not dirty words! ;D 8) :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Very enlightening and edifying Arcturus.
In the end we will all know righteousness. til then ....serenity now!... serenity NOW ! ;D
God bless
Rodger
-
Joyce
A very WELCOME BACK..............................
Pray and hope everything is well with you and your loved ones.
God bless
Rodger
-
Darren calm down...
and thank you for your compliment 8) , but All thanks and glory be to Our Father.
God is all powerful and all knowing.((period)) WHO ? Would even consider, the need for fortune tellers, that have to ask you WHY you come to them. And cannot seem to give out the right lotto numbers....ANSWER:: only an idiot would.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:
If God's warns us all of this lie , and yet people go seek out wizards and such....YES they are idiots.
example
WATCH OUT !! do not put your hand in the fire. It will burn and hurt. Huh ...you did put your hand in the fire.....does it hurt and burn. You were warned not to. put ice on it. What you put your hand in the fire AGAIN. Well now here is your SIGN ! ;)
IDIOT: noun
One deficient in judgment and good sense: a@@, fool, imbecile, jackass, mooncalf, moron, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, simple, simpleton, softhead, tomfool. Informal dope, gander, goose. Slang cretin, ding-dong, dip, goof, jerk, nerd, schmo, schmuck, turkey. See ability/inability.
1. A foolish or stupid person.
2. A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers.
live and learn
Rodger
Yes Roger, live and learn in God's time and not our's. I would consider myself a sad person indeed, calling the the works of God's and stupid and foolish for "being unable to learn" because it is not God's will for them to do so.
Rodger, I would ask that you first look at the beam in your own eye, before you judge so harshly the speck in another's. Do you count yourself responsible for everytruth you have ever garnered? Live and learn that all is of God and man cannot by thought or step change the course of one's life as purposed by God.
Thanks for taking my post in a positive manner,
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Darren back at ya, i am a black kettle sure as your a black POT ! ;)
God calls the wisdom of MAN foolish and stupid, am i wrong in echoing that sentiment.
I would rather have the Spirit of God tell me, then someone proclaim there feelings were hurt.
Peace and endurance
Rodger
-
Well alot of words said but how many people have known witches and socers. I grew up in such an atmosphere. Some of my biological family member for several generations practice this stuff. They all said they were religious. One a preacher made chairs walkin his sermons. What i saw was a lust for power and wanting things their way. I have alot of stories about this stuff but the main issues that I saw was yes it was real yes their seems to be a realm of the supernatural and no it does not have to do with being obedient to God's Will on one level. Now don't everyone scream at me at once!!! people want to do their own thing, that doesn't mean God isn't in control He is in control He allows it for a very good reason. Sin, Evil. is just that and it does all kinds of thing s to people a catalclis ( can't spell tonight this word) I see people practicing this on all levels and when I do it makes me feel like I need to continue to do the Will of the Father in my life no matter what. Alot comes with this practice and it is not good. Keeping our eyes on Jesus and what He desires from us works better. By the way I have had to tell my family several times to back away with their witchcraft I want nothing to do with it and the demons involved and I believe this is what all Christians should do unless God is calling you to deliver some from Demon pocession. There are things that live under rocks and little cracks in the wall, roaches, and their is things that live in the light of the day. To me this is common sense and I kept trying to move in that direction as the Lords guides me.
-
I was raised up catholic, and came across many, many superstitions. The ever popular healer man of latin lore.
visions, images of Jesus, voices,..ect ..........by the truck load
And not one of them ever came through on thier words. More of a traditional SCAM for easy cash, then boooooooooo power of principalities of darkness.
To sum it all it, WHAT A JOKE !
peace and understanding
Rodger
-
Hey !! Did you hear about the one were 2 penguins were vacationing in the Bahamas.....?
No, actually I haven't. But perhaps you'll be kind enough to tell it to us. ;)
-
Rodger, PLEASE TELL ME what happened to those bloomin' penguins? ???
It doesn't matter to me what it/they/their manifestations are called, "EVIL", demons, "good teachers", familiar spirits... these concept/entities simply do not exist without God. We all know this, right??
Arcturus, from Splinter in the Flesh, the bottom line is that whatever it was, God gave it to him to keep him humble. [e.g., lots of physical problems.] From P. 6:
Only Paul actually experienced "transcendency" in this life. Because of the privilege presented to Paul, God must now humble him and bring him back down to earth.
Darren, bless your heart, you are a piece of something sweet, but methinks you are wrapped just a little bit too tight on this one. Rodger's use of the terms "idiots" and "fools" are calling them just the way God has and is playing them. IT'S FUNNY!! ;D
With joy, Janice
-
Hello Janice
You write:Arcturus, from Splinter in the Flesh, the bottom line is that whatever it was, God gave it to him to keep him humble. [e.g., lots of physical problems.] From P. 6:
Only Paul actually experienced "transcendency" in this life. Because of the privilege presented to Paul, God must now humble him and bring him back down to earth.
Janice, the "splinter in the flesh" was a creature not physical problems and that creature was a messenger of Satan that struck Paul "in blows inordinately." 2 Cor 11:23 That is not to say that Pauls TRIALS and physical disabilities were not sent to humble him but the creature messenger was sent to keep him grounded, balanced and for this God sent him to buffet Paul "inordinately.
This might mean that the messenger of Satan is sent to those who experience transcendence of Christ and physical trials are sent only to HUMILIATE and HUMBLE those who have not yet experienced TRANSCENDENCE?
Ray observes : Remember, Paul’s revelations were transcendent. It is, therefore, necessary that his humiliation must be in accord with his exaltation. Is there a negative word that answers, in kind, to the word "transcendence"? Yes. It’s the word "inordinately"!
Let’s first look at the positive: Webster’s, transcend, 1. To go beyond the limits of; exceed 2. To surpass; excel. This is the positive side of [h]uperbole.
Now the negative: I like Webster’s New World Student’s Dictionary: inordinate, adj. too many or too much; excessive.
http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html
Good to see you back....from where? ...Joyful1 !
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Dear Arcturus,
NO, there are no creatures/entities/ghosts/spirits/familiars, etc., WHATEVER LABEL we can give them. It IS ALL THE SPIRIT OF EVIL GIVEN BY GOD to Satan as His tool, or... Okay, God through Satan or disease or through His natural processes (aging) CAUSED Paul to be PHYSICALLY humbled. Please confirm to me that you don't think A CREATURE or a FAMILIAR SPIRIT is involved. Surely at this late hour I am misunderstanding you. Perhaps I am enlightening you.
Your second paragraph in blue has TOTALLY THROWN me in that I have no idea of what you are trying to say, and I have reread it a few times. Honest, you lost me on this one, sorry.
Well of course Paul was 'inordinately' balanced-out by God in receiving the "splinter" because of his God-given spiritual vision. Can I hear the choir sing... "God HAD to humble Paul!!" He HAD to humble him because of the GLORY he was given to see... that awaits!
Too bad about this little tizz, ain't nothin' but a tizz... Always appreciate your scholarship otherwise.
With joy, Janice
-
Hi Janice :)
Thank you for your kind words, and perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way; however, maybe I can present my understanding a little differently. Let us for example, imagine a class of young children; some bright, some rich, some healthy and lot's just plain average and sickly. Now imagine that the teacher for no apparent reason, picks out 5% (just a number) and gives them special treatment, tutition and attention. Perhaps the teacher provides these "special" pupils after hours tution as well.
But there is nothing special about these children, some are bright, some are poor and some are sickly; goodness knows that the other children are clueless as to why "some" are receiving special treatment, while they themselves are not.
Now let us consider how the children would feel if the teacher started calling the remainder of the class as: fools, hypocrittess and a joke. Oh sure, some may gleefully agree, and voice the same, lauding their good fortune over those whom they themselves were just a few days, weeks or months were right with them.
Yet others, would see well that they have no reason to boast, knowing well that it was nothing that they did or can give that has earned their special treatment. They know that if not for thier being picked out, they would be right where the others are now. Do they think the others as jokes, or idiots? Heck no and neither do they think it is funny; why would they? Did the teacher do it for "their" amusment?
Perhaps the teacher finds immense amusement from his/her actions, but were these actions for the amusement of the few?
Luk 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
- The word "pleased" is key here: Pleased - eudokeō [G2106]
1) it seems good to one, is one's good pleasure
a) think it good, choose, determine, decide
b) to do willingly
c) to be ready to, to prefer, choose rather
2) to be well pleased with, take pleasure in, to be favourably inclined towards one
Luk 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
- Are we not to give what little we have to those who are poor in Spirit? Are not the purses that we make for ourselves that will not wear out, the same purses that contain the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (Gal 5:22,23)
Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
I firmly believe that the good fortune given to the children is for their benefit and growth. Which of the children would you think are being most responsible regarding the "gift" of good fortune giving them: those scoffing out those less fortunate, or those who are in any way they can, sharing the things they ahve learned with the others so that they too can have some hope of getting good grades too.
Are these not the same Spirit driven principles expected of us?
Thanks Janice, I hope this helps you see where I am coming from. :)
If anyone has any comments on this, please share them.
Love n Christ,
Darren
-
Hi Janice,
NO, there are no creatures/entities/ghosts/spirits/familiars, etc., WHATEVER LABEL we can give them. It IS ALL THE SPIRIT OF EVIL GIVEN BY GOD to Satan as His tool, or...
Ray believes there are demons and mentions them numerous times. Here's a few emails from Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html -------
Dear Michelle:
The only spirits "roaming around" are demons, not the spirits of DEAD people.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html ----
Dear Brenda:
ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers." Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2). If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1910.0.html -------
Dear Chris:
There have been probably 5 to 10 thousand volumes written on demons and exorcism. It is not likely that I can explain this subject in five to ten sentences.
There is "possession" and there is "obsession." Many people are obsessed with demons and evil spirits rather than being actually possessed and totally out of control mentally.
Catholic exorcism is more superstition than Scriptural. Protestant ministers try to shout and SCREAM them out of people. I had only a few personal experiences with people who were demonized. With one elderly woman we prayed and one by one Jesus casted out a half dozen or so demons--each with his own name, I might add.
The truth is that we "wrestle against such spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12). It is part of our Christian walk of faith.
The world is filled with "spirits of antichrist." Many Christians worship these spirits. I cast out dozens and dozens of these spirits of antichrist on our bible-truth.com site, and many pastors, theologians, and Christians hate and despise me for doing it. They love these evil spirits. But always remember, that if you have the Spirit of God in you, then:
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4).
God be with you,
Ray
-
Hello Janice
Here is the paragraph you say totally threw you : Janice, the "splinter in the flesh" was a creature not physical problems and that creature was a messenger of Satan that struck Paul "in blows inordinately." 2 Cor 11:23 That is not to say that Paul's TRIALS and physical disabilities were not sent to humble him but the creature messenger was sent to keep him grounded, balanced and for this God sent him to buffet Paul "inordinately.
I can presume the above paragraph that threw you could throw others too if they have not familiarised themselves with the teaching that expounds this truth. : http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html If you can not accept/agree/understand the revelations in this clear, concise teaching then I expect you have quite a roller coaster ride ahead of you yet. If confronted for example how will you ever explain Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying What is your name? And he said, Legion: because MANY DEVILS WERE ENTERED INTO HIM.
If the teachings on the link provided click as true for you then you may see why I posted that paragraph that threw you because it is the summation of the gentle yet profound wisdom's shown through Rays teaching on this subject.
This teaching plus the edifying responces posted by Kat from Ray should convince you to change your views God willing. :) Then perhaps you can reflect this wisdom to others who also get thrown.
The false teachings out of Babylon have been around for more than 2000 years and because many have learnt errors from Babylon for so long or simply due to a preference for the comforts of familiar deception they go against the truths of God and those who have come out of Her because the unfamiliar truth exposes Babylonian deceptions and lies.
I think all of us who have been ushered by the Spirit of God to come to know the truth can verify by personal testimony, that the path to Truth hurts. It requires repentance and separation from what is familiar and it involves pain, disappointment and discovery that illusion is a powerful aphrodisiac for the flesh and carnality of man. Non are exempt. Some get to know and experience the intimacy of Christ, and to stand before Him just as we are....naked. Others will kill not to go through such vulnerability and they will hang on to idols to hide behind or cover themselves from knowing they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. Rev 3:17
If you have no clue what I am saying, just think....some one in Cyber Space might get it and it might have meaning for them. :)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
I don't understand much of this. If it is a true , creature, what was the creature?
-
The answer is in the transcript. Believe it or not! :D
Last time...here is the link...http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html
-
So it was Satan? I read what the link was and that's all I can see.
-
Okay...here's the answer.
Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh").
A messenger of Satan...is NOT SATAN....its a demon...an appointed MESSENGER of Satan....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
A messenger of Satan and it was a creature? May be dense here but what is the creature or what was the creature?
-
Hi Nole,
There can be no doubt that Paul was inflicted with a demon/angel/messenger of some nature because there is no escaping the word "aggelos" which means:
Strongs G32.
1. a messenger,
2. envoy,
3. one who is sent,
4. an angel,
5. a messenger from God
I think I can help you better understand the point Arcturus is making. Following is what Paul had to say about his "Splinter" and what he was told by God.
2Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
The key to understanding is in the 9th verse. Christ said himself that his strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul was not allowed to become conceited in his own glory.
The Scriptures give other examples of how Satan is used (not mesenger of) to bring others back to spiritual truth. Shocked? :) Please read on.
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Really!! So Satan can destroy the flesh so that the spirit maybe saved. How could this happen. Well the "church" was recognized as a sanctuary from Satan, and obviously the man in this instance had commited a crime worthy of punishment / heart felt repentance. So Paul had the man thrown out of the church into the hands of Satan, who through demoralization and deparvity, will cause the man to repent and return to his former state.
This is not the only time we are told that Satan has been "used" in this way.
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
The similarities between these two examples and Paul are unmistakable; however, there is one major difference. Paul was a prominent member of Christ's church; it would have served no purpose to expell him from it; so Paul was given a "splinter" as a constant reminder so that the messagae of Christ would not be forgotten: My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Paul was happy with this arrangement, for he continued in his letter, saying:
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
I hope this helps your understanding.
With Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Yeah, makes sense. Sort of like the story of Job? You know where Satan went before God Himself to try to make Job a less than faithful servant of God.
-
FEAR NOTHING!!! but the LORD,
"The task ahead of U is NOTHING!!! 2 da Power bhind U!", Praise the LORD alwayZ!!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
-
Absolutely Pera!
God will give us the strength to move ahead no matter what we face. There is nothing to fear. Our job is to keep pressing on!
Love,
Ursula
-
Amen & Amen sister Ursula,
muchLOVE!! Pera
-
Hi Nole,
There can be no doubt that Paul was inflicted with a demon/angel/messenger of some nature because there is no escaping the word "aggelos" which means:
Strongs G32.
1. a messenger,
2. envoy,
3. one who is sent,
4. an angel,
5. a messenger from God
I think I can help you better understand the point Arcturus is making. Following is what Paul had to say about his "Splinter" and what he was told by God.
2Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
The key to understanding is in the 9th verse. Christ said himself that his strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul was not allowed to become conceited in his own glory.
The Scriptures give other examples of how Satan is used (not mesenger of) to bring others back to spiritual truth. Shocked? :) Please read on.
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Really!! So Satan can destroy the flesh so that the spirit maybe saved. How could this happen. Well the "church" was recognized as a sanctuary from Satan, and obviously the man in this instance had commited a crime worthy of punishment / heart felt repentance. So Paul had the man thrown out of the church into the hands of Satan, who through demoralization and deparvity, will cause the man to repent and return to his former state.
This is not the only time we are told that Satan has been "used" in this way.
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
The similarities between these two examples and Paul are unmistakable; however, there is one major difference. Paul was a prominent member of Christ's church; it would have served no purpose to expell him from it; so Paul was given a "splinter" as a constant reminder so that the messagae of Christ would not be forgotten: My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Paul was happy with this arrangement, for he continued in his letter, saying:
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
I hope this helps your understanding.
With Love in Christ,
Darren
Darren,
Thanks for the sharing with us of what you have learned from the scriptures! ;)
Brett :D
-
HI all, and thanks for responding Darren and Arcturus, I will catch up on all of this hopefully tomorrow; I had such a very over-full day today... and am too whacked out to read tonight. OY!
But this is all very interestesting to me!
Love, Janice :)
-
You know I just wonder how many of you here really know and I mean know what this means to be constantly buffeted by satan. If Richard wurmbrandt was here yes he would know he was torture for Christ under the streets Russia for 17 years. What is all this about with you guys. I know I sound rude but please besides my rudeness does anyone here really had this experience or is it just talking sounds. If you haven't walk through something how do you know what it really is? I knowyoustudythe scriptures to come to knowledge and some people talk like they have some knowledge. To know is a good word to look up in the Greek and hebrew. Head knowledge what does that profit a man with out walking through the firer of God. Peggy
-
Thanks Kat for the emails, Ray explains it really well.
Iris
-
Peggy, I feel what you are saying. I have had what I call "demons" in my own life. The fire I walked through was painful and if I am honest it is still painful at times. My body has scars and disfigurements because of severe child abuse. The beatings came while my youngest sister was molested before my eyes. I tried to go to her aid and that is when the beating would start. The man who did this was supposed to love our mother but was instead trying to kill off every part of her life before him and that included us. There is music I can't listen to because a song can bring the violence back to my mind. I was changed throughout that and other things. I lived through a very real fire that he caused that left me scarred also. I am deaf in one ear from him. If I am not looking at someone to see their lips moving i can't always tell what they are saying.For me, alcohol and drugs became my escape from the pain of our lives. Time went on and the day came when I felt that pulling on my heart that led me to the Holy Spirit which led me to lay down my drugs and alcohol. That same gift of God has led me to help others who are in simialar situations as me and my sisters were. I am about as far from perfect as one can be but God loves and accepts me anyway. My heart is His and my life is His. He made me, knows what I survived, knows my desire to help others and knows when I mess up and loves me anyway. Demons, yes but the love of God is so much greater. Most sincerely from the heart,
Seminole
-
:'( Siminole-- my heart ached for you when I read your reply....I never experienced what you went through-- I understand that only by God's grace, little children endure such suffering-- and it is a mystery how He works these things for the good, although I trust Him and believe that He does....but going along with this thread, I did experience "being frozen" and talked to, as a child, by what I believe must have been a demonic spirit...almost nightly...my heart pounded and I felt shear dread, and was unable to stop it from happening for many years, I thank God that it made me search him out at an early age and I thank God that He has seen fit to remove it from my life and replace my fretful nights with good, peaceful sleep for many years now.... its really the only explanation that I have for such things...
peace and love to you!
Joyce :)
oh yes...and acturus: again great point!
"If confronted for example how will you ever explain Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying What is your name? And he said, Legion: because MANY DEVILS WERE ENTERED INTO HIM. "
-
Yes Joyce, such a hard thing to understand. maybe we will never understand why those things happen each day but praises to God that He uses those things to change our lives and make us better people.
Seminole
-
Hello...I hope I can straighten out my part in this briefly: Yep Arcturus, I do stand corrected on what Paul’s splinter really was indeed as you pointed out, an evil spirit creature. I don’t know how this important piece of information escaped me when I read Ray's paper on this some time ago. I think I simply forgot. I focused only on Paul’s extremely lousey and hard life incurred by the evil doings of others as blows, lashes and floggings from them, stonings, tortures, being jailed and imprisoned, etc., well as his bad eyesight, hard toil and laboring, hunger, thirst, cold and nakedness, troubles at sea, even deaths, and being crucified upside down.
As stated in my earlier post in this thread, Reply # 28, one of several: “ALL evil is given from God. It is real to the extent that God gives it to be real, to include witchcraft, etc., etc. I didn't list at least 17 verses from the Word of God in my previous post regarding God and His evil if it wasn't REAL/ACTUAL/DOES EXIST per Him." So I think I’m on board with this, just erred in not realizing Paul had an evil entity within him.
Thanks a bunch Kat for quoting that Ray email, a good one.
No Arcturus, this is the paragraph, the second paragraph of yours I didn’t get at first:
“This might mean that the messenger of Satan is sent to those who experience transcendence of Christ and physical trials are sent only to HUMILIATE and HUMBLE those who have not yet experienced TRANSCENDENCE?”
And I get it now. It is a rhetorical question, so I will leave it at that.
Thank you Darren, I appreciate ALL your comments.
It's always great to learn, even in a roundabout way! ;) ;D
Joy, Janice
-
Hi Janice,
One thing I would like to point out that you said.
So I think I’m on board with this, just erred in not realizing Paul had an evil entity within him.
To Say Paul had a demon within is saying he was demon possessed. I do not believe he was demon possessed. I think from what Ray says, this would come upon Paul suddenly and attack him.
http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html ----------------------
We have to understand that Paul could not live normally, by just expecting a setback or trial from time to time as circumstances would allow. No. Paul traveled in foreign lands for years, fully conscious of the fact that this appointed messenger of Satan was always there, like a sniper in the dark, ready to suddenly pounce on Paul with blows of every description and severity of pain and agony. And how often did these things happen to Paul? Almost too often, and too much--INORDINATELY!
-------------------------------------------------------
This whole thing is a bit difficult to understand, but I hope you see what I'm talking about :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Bang! upside da Head, :)
Also my Heart jumped, dropped, fell even stopped 4 U Seminole, But! Yes az I hav cum 2 da knowledge, it is Hard 4 us 2 understand fingz d@ happen in our lives but! we must cum 2 accept it, We can Y dis? & Y d@? all day, night, week etc.. long, but we will neva get an answer We r satisfied with, exsept knowing wholeheartedly! GOD is in Control, alwayz has & alwayz wil be. I hav seen fingz like d@ of U Seminole happen all around me 2 my niece wen she was 4yrz old to da age of 11, it happened 2 my cuzzin whom I was bort up wit whom was once a man but now has had a sex change but 2 me da worse was 2 my very own children, Wen I cort da mother of my 4 oldest children in bed with another dude well we split up of coz, Well I took 2 children & she took 2 children, she took my oldest son then da age of 7 & da youngest of da 4 my dortas whom was 3. But! my son only dis year sumtime cum out & told me him & his younger sister were both molestered by one of their mothers boi friends bout 15 yrz ago, it was quite strange how him telln me all dis came out 2, my son was drinking with my younger dorta & her boi friend & my younga brother & my wife one night , wen my son who now is 23yrz old started talkn about a uncle of mine & he was sayn how orsum he is & kind bla bla bla... Wen out of no wher I sed Woteva son hez a molesterer! ( the molesterer of my cousin), wow! did all hell break loose, my son started yelln & sayn Y did u hav 2 say d@ dad? den ran out & ran home, everyone was telln me 2 chase him, den d@ had me finkn man! Y did I hav 2 say d@?. I jus said I will go c him in the morning & sort fingz out. Well the next morning my wife & I went ova 2 c him b4 we were 2 head back 2 da City wher we lived, az soon as I walked in my son says 2 me Dad I need 2 talk 2 U, & Bang!!!! it all cum out wot had happened 2 him & his sister bowt 15yrz ago, I new da dude 2 he was an old friend of mine but strangely enuff dis dude was killed in quite strange circumstances, he was stabbed in the back with a screw driver by the lesbian partner he was sleepn with, I jus said 2 my son after giving him & his sister big loveies!, tears n all I said son one mus 4give & da healing is made much easier & coz he had bort it out takes a big load off him as I remember everytime I was with them in years b4 having a few drinks he alwayZ! I mean AlwayZ! use 2 cry around me & no one understood Y, az he was known az da man! so 2 speak, but wen I was around he jus cried, now it all makes sense. Well im on dis subject I wanna jus tell of my nieces ordeal she is my second oldest sisters dorta (but tragically was killed in a domestic related beating) & she left 2 dortas Brooke & Krystal, well wher 2 begin, we hav dis photo of dez 2 wen dey were Brooke 4 & Krystal 2 & now we no bcoz of wot we no now one can easily C Y der r different facial exspressions on each of der faces, Well wen Brooke was 11yrz old da grandfather dropped Brooke off 2 us 4 da day, den in da afternoon he returned 2 pick her up, But! den Brookes whole attitude jus changed & she refused 2 go & she jus opened up 2 my wife & told her everything & it started @ da age of 4yrs old her so called granfather would get her out of bed around 2ish in da mornings & take her in2 da park & do wot he did 2 her dis happened daily & still 2 da day b4 he dropped her off 2 uS. Well wen it went 2 court my niece didnt wana go thru it n e longa & gav up so da granfather was set free with a warning, We will b watchn U. We were all so guttered!, how can one do dis & get away wit it, well 2 make fingz n e worse da granfather Won! 500 thousand in lotto!, we were all just freaked out Y? how? is der a GOD? bla bla bla, But! Praise GOD az d@ ended up bein his down fall, I believe he thort he could buy dis sort of sick!! thing he enjoyed doin 2 little gurls even tho it was a cple of years after it had all been bort out in da open, he tried it on another gurl but she escaped & ran down the road naked & he was arested & sent 2 jail but d@ wasnt da end of it, az he was found in his cell Hanging!. Is der a GOD!?? dam! right derz a GOD!. I dont no Y I shared dis all, my niece is now 26yrz old now & is doin really well & so r my 2 children. One fing Ive noticed is my niece so loves her children my son has 3 children he Loves so much & my younga dorta is currently pregant & is due in October at first she didnt want 2 keep it but after a talk or 2 to her, she just so cant wait 4 her baby 2 b born, THANK YOU FATHER for YOU are so GOOD, BlesSnz! 2 U Seminole, I feel the work GOD has done in U is great! & will get greater, Praise HIS name.
much muchLOVE!! Pera
Ps. I am sorry Peggy 4 gettn off da subject sumwot, I truly feel 4 U sister & I am hearing U, a quick xeperience I had was an Eye d@ came 2 me wen I was only half asleep it was a very heavy evil feeln I was feeln, But! I jus Prayed & Prayed & Prayed & it disappeared but wen I was woken by a knock on the door I ran inside where my dorta who is 13yrs old was seeing da same thing an Eye!, I just Prayed ova her till she fell asleep. wen she could talk about it, it was da exact Eye I had seen, but 2 me dis stuff doesnt faze me az I Know! FEAR nothing but the LORD dis just happened dis year sumtime but hasnt happened again, PRAISE the LORD alwayZ!!! Peace 2 U sister Peggy Oxx.
-
Man Pera! You have been through the wringer! I tip my hat to you in how you have the joyous personality that comes through your writing. funny how God uses these bad things to bring us together in knowing we are not alone! Your kids are gonna be great parents because they will be more knowing that these things can happen. I got a little girl and I don't let her be around family that I know is abusers. I will protect her from anything like that I can the best I can.
Seminole
-
I saw that Harry Potter movie today and I still don't know how to be a sorceror. The church is full of hypocrites. They condemn movies and commit real sins with their own idol worship and blasphemy. Anyway, I've had conversations with people who have experienced visions of dead people. I think these visions are real but they are still, visions. I think they are supernatural but they definitely ain't dead people. It's important that people be careful in what they believe in. As far as black magic. It's all deception of Satan
-
HO! Well Kat, what can I say? No wonder I didn't get it right the first time... I didn't get it right the second time either! LOL.
Ok, I think I've got it now thanks to you. The creature must have been able to manifest physically in order to beat Paul up. [I was thinking it was a spirit and was causing him painful blows from the inside.]
Thanks kindly for bearing with me!
Janice
-
Hi Janice,
Hey, I don't understand this whole demon thing to good either, I have never had any personal demon experiences. I'm just learning along with you :)
So how did Paul receive blows from this spirit 'creature,' I just don't know.
But I'm quite sure it was not 'inside' or possessed Paul.
Can a spirit being manifest itself physically? I didn't think so. It could possess animals as when Christ sent the demons out of the man into the swine (Matt 8:31). So did animals attack Paul?
I'm thinking how Job was beat down by Satan, maybe it was something like that.
Job 2:7 And Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the top of his head.
Maybe as with Job, Satan brought about all the calamities that came upon him, so with Paul, all the calamities that came upon him were from this demon creature. Interesting stuff, but hard to comprehend, for me anyway.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Hi Kat,
I'm just now getting back around to this; I'm so glad this came up. I think I'm gonna have to stick with the concept that Paul's splinter was an evil/nonbenevolent spirit messenger that was manifested physically [an animal or human form or some odd-looking creature, I don't know], not mind you, habiting an existing human life as in them being possessed, but just simply manifested physically so as to render the inordinant blows to Paul. It defies the laws of physics otherwise that a spirt form could beat up a physical form. Granted, it seems that this is the only instance of this occurring in Scripture that I know of, that is, of a nonbenevolent messenger given a physical form. [Other than the demons that were cast by Jesus into pigs, as you had mentioned.]
I think another clue comes from Ray's statement that "Only a creature of intelligence and mobility can possibly "withdraw" from someone." Mobility being the key word here indicating physicality.
There are several examples of benevolent messengers manifesting in physical human form in the O.T. The three guests that appeared to Abraham and Sarah and did eat, those who appeared to Lot predicting the ruin of Sodom, he who spoke to Hagar in the desert commanding her to return to the dwelling of Abraham, he who wrestled with Jacob on his return from Mesopotamia, the one who presented himself armed to Joshua on the plain of Jericho who declared he was the head of the army of the Lord, and more. Even Jesus' different physical manifestations gives the idea that God has ultimate control over these kinds of arrangements of matter.
With God all things are possible, of course. So until I hear evidence to the contrary, I think I now know for sure what Paul's splinter in the flesh was. Poor Paul!!
Thank you for your kind and diligent assistance in helping me put this together!! :)
... Just love stretchin' the ol' bean! :D
Joy, Janice
-
I believe Paul was tormented by a poltergeist: that is a spirit believed to manifest its presence by rappings and other noises and also by acts of mischief, such as throwing furniture about. Ref Collins English Dictionary
-
Ahhh... with God all things are possible... ;)
Janice
-
You know I just wonder how many of you here really know and I mean know what this means to be constantly buffeted by satan. If Richard wurmbrandt was here yes he would know he was torture for Christ under the streets Russia for 17 years. What is all this about with you guys. I know I sound rude but please besides my rudeness does anyone here really had this experience or is it just talking sounds. If you haven't walk through something how do you know what it really is? I knowyoustudythe scriptures to come to knowledge and some people talk like they have some knowledge. To know is a good word to look up in the Greek and hebrew. Head knowledge what does that profit a man with out walking through the firer of God. Peggy
I think about people like Wurmbrandt and sooooooo many others. My life is a piece of cake compared to them. If the very ELECT are a small group of people from all of history, then wouldn't it likely be mostly martyrs for Jesus? Why should I even think I would be in the 1st resur.
Many threads here are filled w/ pain and suffering. But many, not all, are sometimes self induced-wrong choices, drugs, etc....
That is not suffering or persecution for Christs' sake.
I had always assumed Pauls splinter was in the natural from his life (as Janice had said). I was a big believer in demons and such till I came to BT. I sorta don't even think about it now. It seems out of place w/ these teachings. (I lumped it in w/ all the other pentecostal/charismatic/faith/prosperity errors).
This has been an awesome thread by the way. Kudos to all. Page 6 and still going-not locked!
-
That' s so coolthat the thread is going on. it helps us know we aren't alone when people share what is in their lives. Nole
-
seminole Iam sorry I caused you or anyone else undue pain by what I said. My mind has been strange lately too many changes so quickly.Who Christ selects to be the elect I do not care I am just trying not to fall out of the salt shaker while it gets tipped over . Praise God thank you Lord Jesus for your sacrifes and God for your love.Peace and Joy in the Lord Jesus Christ Seminole.
-
This is an interesting subject.
-
Hello Dean
I think what makes this subject interesting for you, please correct me if I am wrong, is that you "have spent the last 20 years studying the Bible and Systematic Theology" that provides a rich backdrop for comparison.
When I was in Babylon I saw that Babylonian teachings bring the focus and fear into Satan's territory. The teachings given to me expressed such credibility and power to Satan and so much so that through the thick blanket of dark deception, the lies became large enough to deviate away from the dazzling good news of Jesus Christ, His Glorious Sovereignty, His Will and His Plan. It sure was an experience!
I noticed that by being induced with the darkness of Babylon. that the followers are soon taught to fear their own shadows so to speak or to be suspicious of dead objects and to treat with reverence any taught fear of which there are plenty available to Harlot Babylon to keep her subjects paralysed. Rejection of such tools of deception bring suspicions, accusations and threats that if fear policy of Babylon is not kept in tact then expulsion will follow! That is just one management principle of Babylon! There are many!
I saw others become so paralysed by such deceptions and so convinced they were the truth. Being blessed to receive the truth I now accept that Jesus visits Mystery Babylon to drag out a few of us! I know by contrast that Babylon does not quicken the spirit with truth, but paralyses her victims with the lull of her wine of wrath, lies, deception and comfortably couched heresies and blasphemies into which many sink very low. Low enough to join the ranks of demons with whom they fellowship on their stages of wonders and miracles in the precious name of our Lord Jesus Christ! "And these signs will follow you!" they declare as evidence of their piety and fellowship with familiar spirits.
I hope and trust that you are continuing to breathe in the fresh, cleansing, liberating Life of HIS Spirit via the teachings freely given and the example abundantly expressed by Ray Smith here at BT.
Peace to you
Arcturus. :)