bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: PKnowler on December 21, 2006, 08:38:04 PM
-
I haven't been around for awhile so "hi" ya'll. How ya been? If I could jump on in there with a question. I thought this would be a good place to ask. I have been thinking about some things and I am perplexed. Do you think that we should share our revelation of Universal Salvation with others? Should we boldly proclaim it? Or keep it to ourselves? Should we only share with Christians so we do not make non-Christians stumble and feel no need for Christ? Or does it even really matter if we share with Christians since they are already saved? At what risk should we acknowledge this hope? The loss of friends?
Do you think sharing this info with non-Christians would make them put off accepting Christ?
I would like to hear what you all have to say.
Thanks!
~Paula
-
Paula,
Hi. Good to see you. Okay I am going to address your questions one by one and there may be some Scriptural overlap so please bear with me.
1. "Do you think we should share our revelation of Universal Salvation with others." - Yes for the simple fact of the Great Commission. It exhorts us to go to all ends of the world with the Good News. Now what is the Good News? That would be John 3:16.
2. "Do you think that we should boldly proclaim it? - Do you know where Paul is talking about how he is boldly proclaiming the good news? I am sure it is in one of the epistles but the gist goes something like this, "Therefore brethern exhort[or encourage] one another as long as it is called Today." [AGAIN - I apologize for messing this Scripture up, if I have.] What better way to encourage eachother and others than boldly proclaiming the Good News.
3. "Or should we keep it to ourselves." - Jesus did not keep salvation to himself. It was for all men. There is a Scripture that says - God is not willing that any man should perish but that all men might come to be saved and to know him. No we should not keep it to ourselves. Universal salvation is for everyone. Universal - in the essence of the words demands to be shared with everyone.
4. "Should we only share with Christains so we do not make non-Christains and fell no need for Christ." - All mankind feel a drawing to a higher power in this case God. God has predestined all of us to come to know him. Everything that happens is in his perfect and holy will. The bible says that nothing can thwart the will of God. Yes we need to share with these people. God uses all circumstances and all words to his purpose. We will not be able to discern all his purpose, but he knows.
5. There is a Scripture that says that he comes not in peace but to divide or with a sword. Mothers against Fathers. Parents against children. No matter what happens, all will come together in the end. We are not commanded to understand this fully, we are commanded and exhorted to spread the good News. Ray is an awesome example of spreading the Truth no matter the opposition. He has faced so much trouble from the people that are so entrenched in Babylon, yet he still stands up for the truth. That is what God tells us to do.
So more points to add to this. Remember when Jesus was telling his disciples when they would come into questioning about their faith, he said that the Holy Spirit would prompt them as to what they should say. Jesus does not change and will not change. When we are witnessing the good news we need to let the Holy Spirit prompt us and be careful that we do no let our own emotions and agenda get in the way. If you are going to share the Good News, say a prayer that the words that Jesus wants to be shared with that person, will come out of your mouth and nothing more and nothing less. Nothing can go wrong this way. Sure you may face opposition, but remember the opposition that Jesus faced when he preaching the Good News. He faced death, but in the end to a glorious purpose, and truth triumphed. It looked like the end of the world before the end came.
A song that I reminded of I want to share.
"I'm pressed but not persecuted.
Struck down but not destroyed.
I am blessed beyond the curse
for his promises endure
His joy is gonna be my strength,
Tho sorrows may last for the night
Joy comes in the morning.
I'm trading my sorrow
I'm trading my pain,
I'm laying them down for the joy of the Lord."
And what is the joy of Lord? The Good News.
Share and share and share. I read somewhere else in another thread, it is NOT us who bring people to the Father, it is Christ and the Holy Spirit that brings them to the Father. We are merely tools that accomplsih this purpose. And what an honor this is.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Hi Paula, good to hear from ya! Ray has written an article about witnessing that should help you. As much as I like what Anne had to say, boy, thats hard to do.
I am going to be with relatives next week and I am dreading if this should come up. Like if they say, "How's church been?" Uh, I haven't been in 6 months. Then they say "why not" then I say...,...here is where I am stuck! Actually I really don't want to talk about it at all. They are way into Christendom and think we are deranged the way we have hopped around these last 30 years.
The last time I tried to talk to a friend about this they were very polite but didn't want to know anymore. The time before that I shared my excitement w/ a best friend who did not believe one word even w/ all the scripture I presented. The very first time I talked about it after discovering Ray's site it was almost a knock down drag out!
So....Ray's article is a Godsend. It has helped me not feel guilty to not say anything, but also to answer back in love about the hope that I have IF anyone asks me.
Love,
gena
-
Hi Paula,
I'm glad to see you back :)
In regards to your question.
If it is God's will for us to share what we have learned, He will cause a person to ask.
1Pe 3:14 But if you also suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed. And do not fear their fear, nor be troubled,
1Pe 3:15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you, with meekness and fear;
1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, that while they speak against you as evildoers they may be shamed, those falsely accusing your good behavior in Christ.
I have spoken of the Truth to family members and a few close friends a little, mainly to tell them I was not going to church anymore.
I don't live close to my extended family, and we've never discussed it since then, because they have never ask anything more.
If they did ask I would be glad to share with them or anyone, but I do not try to explain the Truth or even bring it up to anyone.
That is how I handle it.
It is a solitary journey of studying and learning.
I am so thankful for the forum, this is a wonderful place of fellowship.
This is a resent email to Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2537.0.html ----------------------
Dear Beth:
Don't try to convert anyone. Be the best wife, mother, and friend that anyone could have, and THAT is the best thing that you and everyone else can do (unless you are a man, then, of course, the best husband, etc.,). You will never, ever, ever win someone over by a clever argument with the Scriptures. There are two reason why I do this and you shouldn't: [1] I am being a witness AGAINST all the heretics that attack me and the Truths of God, and [2] my answers to their foolish and unscriptural arguments are a great teaching tool for all those who read our site and who visit our Forum.
But in my private life, I do not try to convert, convince, change, etc., my neighbors and acquaintences. I will tell them the truth about God and the Scriptures, but I do not make a pest of myself. If and when people ask you, give them only as much as then need and are willing to accept. If they desire more, they will come back.
I would suggest you buy a Emphasized Bible by Joseph Rotherham. It is on a par with the Concordant Version, and it is Old and New in one volume, plus you can find it at any large Bible Book Store, and it will probably be considerably less expensive.
Don't study to be a scholar. Just learn what you need to know. Learn it until you know it and believe it, not so that you can win a debate in a room full of theologians. Things like "aion/aionios" will become clear after much study. "Free will" may also take awhile. Some fight it for years before they accept it. I personally immediately accepted it when I saw it and I was delighted to know it, as I was when I learned of the salvation of all. I find it hard to understand why so many hundreds email me and still think that they find Scriptures that contradict the free will/free choice heresy. Anyway, don't become discouraged.
You can certainly accomodate your husband's desire as much as is possible without partaking of his religion with him. I can certainly sit in a church and listen to a minister teach his heresy, without sinning. I would have no reason, however, to do this on a regular basis. Just give it time. "Don't be righteous over much" (Ecc. 7:16). God will direct your path. And who knows whether God will not begin to open your husband's mind in the future.
God be with you,
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
1Ti 4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
1Ti 4:11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.
-
Here is a portion of http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm (Winning Souls for Jesus?)
CAN YOU ‘WIN’ SOULS FOR CHRIST?
All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God’s Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.
Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.
But isn’t there a Scripture somewhere that speaks of "winning souls?" No, not really.
Once only do we find any words regarding "winning souls" in the King James Bible:
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov. 11:30).
This verse, however, has absolutely nothing to do with saving the souls of those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour. The Hebrew word kal from which the word winneth was translated, is used hundreds of times in the King James, but only once is it translated into any form of the word "win." It means to, take, bring, fetch, acquire, rescue, etc., but "win" is a poor choice of words. Besides, spiritual salvation through Jesus Christ is not the topic of Proverbs 11:30. Two New Testament Scriptures:
In Phil. 3:8 we read, "…that I may win [Gk: ‘gain’] Christ…" and in I Pet. 3:1, "…they also may… be won [Gk: ‘gained’] by the conversation [conduct] of the wives…" The other dozen times this Greek word kerdaino is used, it is always ‘gain’ or ‘gained.’ Example: "…Lord you delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained [Gk: kerdaino] two other talents beside them" (Matt. 25:22).
Why didn’t the King James translate this: "…behold I have WON two other talents…?" Surely even these translators could see the implications of increasing our God-given talents by gambling with them for higher ‘WINNINGS.’
Christians need to get all this gambling terminology out of their heads when it comes to the doctrines of God. Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense.
Salvation is not a matter of a first chance or a second chance or any chance. Salvation is "sure."
"SURELY, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He NOT, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL? (Rom. 8:32, Concordant Literal New Testament).
GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN
"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let’s not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).
Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don’t GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.
But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:
"For [‘for’ means ‘because’] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
-
If and when God does the leading that would be the time to obey. it is all of HIM and after all:
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
bobby
-
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:27 But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
-
hello.
planting seeds and gently sharing is all you can do. one plants one waters but God makes grow.
we cannot win souls for Jesus but this has nothing to do with sharing.
one thing i would suggest is after you recognize it not being recieved then stay away from arguments.
in forum land they will try and spiritual murder you.
be gentle.patient kind and loving as i know you are, try and stay out of long drawn out arguments with fundies.
peace and grace
your ol buddy
chuckt... euty :-*
-
I want to thank you all for replying to my question. It is amazing all the different perspectives you all gave- some things I had not even considered. I really appreciate it! Your replies give me alot to think about in how to go about sharing my faith.
I am so glad to have a place to go with these questions! I love you all! It is nice to
know that I am not alone in this walk.
Blessings, Paula
-
I would say let Christ show you how to live in Him. Then, as you live it, you'll have no problem letting your living sermon of His life in you be shared with those whom He has chosen you to share them with.
Ches
-
Hi Paula.
You wrote :
I haven't been around for awhile so "hi" ya'll. How ya been? If I could jump on in there with a question. I thought this would be a good place to ask. I have been thinking about some things and I am perplexed. Do you think that we should share our revelation of Universal Salvation with others?
I do not think there is anything wrong with sharing our excitement over what we have been shown as long as it is done without wanting to convert or persuade or brow beat anyone. As long as we do not debate, try to show anyone wrong or try to look, or sound superior.
Should we boldly proclaim it?
Here is where the problem lies with boldy proclaiming anything unless you are David running up to Goliath.
Boldly – Collins English Dictionary. Courageous, confident, and fearless; ready to take on risks.
Courage – the power or quality of dealing with or facing danger, fear, pain etc.
So this is not the way to go according to what the scriputures say…… :)
Or keep it to ourselves?
We are told not to hide our light under a bushel. But remember light does not make any sound. It shows up by contrast......
Should we only share with Christians so we do not make non-Christians stumble and feel no need for Christ?
If we only share with Christians we do the same whether to pagans or to Christians. Christendom is Mystery Babylon out which we were called to come out.
Or does it even really matter if we share with Christians since they are already saved?
I do not believe anyone is saved. Not until Christ returns Heb 9 : 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, BUT TO BRING TO FULL SALVATION those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.
At what risk should we acknowledge this hope? The loss of friends?
Yes at the loss of friends and family…..and the discovery of new friends and family in Christ.
Do you think sharing this info with non-Christians would make them put off accepting Christ?
Decidedly yes if you go boldly. :D No if you are approaching meekly, gently and in the wisdom way and manner of Christ.
I would like to hear what you all have to say.
Here is an excerpt from LOF Part 15
THE SCRIPTURAL PROCESS OF CONVERSION
The truth of conversion is a simple one, if we believe the Scriptures and don’t try to bring it about by some phantom free will. It is all of God.
How do the Scriptures say we become converted? Does an ounce of "free will" enter into the conversion process according to the Scriptures?
1. "Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness [‘His goodness;’ not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God’s ‘leading’ is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Rom. 2:4). Where is the ‘free will’ in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not free will.
2. "No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.
3. "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16). "I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.
4. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). It is not by the ‘free will’ of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.
5. "I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5). According to God’s Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.
6. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:11). Is this man’s part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12). Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus, Lord.
7. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).
Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God’s faith, God’s gift, God’s Workmanship, God’s creating, God’s ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.
I could go on and on like this for a hundred pages. I could go through the entire Bible proving that all is of God, not of man’s will. It is always God; it is never man’s will that is the first cause of all things. Nowhere in the entirety of the Bible is there anything suggesting that man has a "free will." Man’s will is not free. Man has a will, but it is not free from the causes that make it do what it does.
Millions and millions of times it is stated by the clergy that man must live by his "free will" that God gave him. God never goes against our own free will, we are told. Hogwash!
Since God says we cannot obey Him with our natural mind [our own God-given will], and yet we have much Scriptural proof that God does cause men to do what He wants, then we also have proof that God does go against man’s will, and He does it often.
"For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
According to Christendom, this verse is a fraud. We are taught that, "It is OUR OWN FREE WILL that works IN us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure." But no, it is God Who works in us both to will and to do. There is no "free moral agency" at work in this verse of God’s Word or anywhere else, for God’s Word does not contradict. These Scriptures I am giving you are so very simple and so very plan, yet, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Paula,
These scriptures jumped out at me when i first was able to see!
KJV
(1Pe 3:15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
(1Pe 3:16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
CONCORDANT LITERAL VERSION
(1Pe 3:15) yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear,
(1Pe 3:16) having a good conscience, that, in what they are speaking against you as of evildoers, they may be mortified, who traduce your good behavior in Christ."
God Bless You
Sandie
-
Hi Paula, :)
This will be short as I am using a handheld. My suggestion is to ask God for both wisdom and courage.
Wisdom, so that you will know what to say and when to say, and courage, to do it.
These are of course God given and he will be with you. God has really helped be recall Scripture when needed; which is something I can never do on my own.
I also believe that proclaiming the truth has a whole lot to do with living it. Others will see by the will of God.
Just my thoughts,
Love,
Darren
-
Paula,
I guess I can attempt to sum it all up.
Let not your words do your speaking, but let your actions shout aloud the testimony at the Spirit's prompting.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Hello Paula,
I agree with Arcturus I believe he has given you sound advice, I would have answered the same. However we are all distinct and unique individuals and for this reason we will all handle situations differently.
As a believer in Jesus Christ, as one who has been transferred from darkness into the light, as one who has been set free from slavery to sin, as one who has experienced the love of the lord, chosen to know the truth.... the good news.... how could I ever contain this hidden treasure??? The Spirit of the Lord is within me, I have been anointed to set the captives free, to bring liberty to the oppressed to give sight to the blind, to share the love of the Lord with a dead and dying world.
I feel it is my responsibility to share the truth, in love with no hidden agenda, to all that I cross paths with, just once. I am also convinced that God has brought me into this wonderful, glorious experience for no other reason than to share the Good News. I have shared this message with all types and no one has ever been offended. I don't get involved in discussing doctrine, the way I live my life speaks for it's self and when the opportunity presents, I simply share my experience not knowledge.... my experience of being awakened and filled with a love and a joy that I never knew apart from Christ.
My life is a miracle no longer one of the many walking dead, I have been given life, a heart of flesh, I have an open line of communication with the Lord, I am complete in Christ. I know, that I know, that I know.... He is who He says He is. How can I meet someone and know that they are void of Christ, dead, incomplete, lost, stumbling through this life and not mention Christ, and what He has done for me? I can not. I am in no way considered a religious fanatic by people who I have crossed paths with. As for my Christian acquaintance's still in Babylon at least I know they have heard the truth, that is comforting to me. As knew believers the 1st thing we do is run to a church were we are fed a bunch of lies. I thank God that I stumbled across Ray's teachings and was able to receive the truth.
I am not trying to win souls for Jesus but everyone who knows me will know of Christ simply because He is a part of me, the best part of me.
I can not bury my treasure, it is so beautiful, so precious, it is the power of God to salvation for all men, a word that gives life to the dead. Again we are all unique individuals with our own style, I love sharing Gods word with others, I feel it is the most loving deed I could ever do for another individual. If I sense they are going to be uptight than I know to redirect the conversation, but that has not been my experience most people like to talk about God and I let them talk about their God and I just keep sharing truths a little here a little there.
I also believe the scriptures reveal that the disciples where certainly sharing the gospel. God is using His people to deliver His message, yes it has all been predetermined everyone will be saved, God is right now speaking through his people we are a part of the plan. I've seen lives healed because I have shared.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
I press forward to obtain the high calling of God, to be a priest of God and reign with Christ. I have always thought that those who are chosen will be revealing Christ, until all have been converted in the ages to come.
God bless,
Kennymac
-
Hello Friends,
It would be easy to say that I am a member of the church that is built without hands by the One "......Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe", but no one asks me if or where I go to church anymore. If they did, I probably wouldn't remember any statement that I have absolute hope in unless His Holy Spirit guides my tongue. He will teach us what to say when we interact with His other children. We will only say what is needful and I fully believe that it is needful to spread the really Good News when led. Thanks for all the encouraging emails you send to the forum. His mercy, grace, love, peace and patience be with you all. :)
Barbara
-
Paula
Just one other thing to mention….
It is always a good thing to check our motives. Are we living by the law or in freedom of Christ? Are we striving with God to prove that we are worthy or are we accepting that we can do nothing without Him and should depend on HIS worthiness for our salvation? Are we trying to make ourselves feel better by doing good deeds to appease an unsettled conscience, uncertainty in ourselves or self doubt or are our eyes and dependence on Christ and on Him alone? Are we accepting that Christ is our High Priest and font of all forgiveness, source of God who is love and King of all Glory that He shares with His co-equal heirs? If there is any pride in our motives or any self reliance or self motivation or self seeking, then we could do well to reflect on the following scriputre.
Rev 20 : 12,13…..And the dead were judged, sentenced by what they had done, their whole WAY OF FEELING and ACTING, their AIMS and endeavours in accordance with what was recorded in the books. 13. and ALL were tried and their cases determined by what they had done according to their MOTIVE, AIMS and WORKS…..
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
I say this from experience. Our beliefs can cause major division in our personal relationships. My wife believes the more "standard" and mainline teaching of salvation by choice, hell fire, yada yada yada. I tried to tell her what I believe is the truth and a huge argument ensued. For this reason I'll say this: don't force the issue. That's not to say keep quiet, never say it, keep it secret, for that's not what the Word says to do. We're told to proclaim the truth. However, it doesn't say force the issue, fight and argue about it until everyone's angry at each other.
I'd suggest saying it once, or having one discussion about it, then drop it. If they want to know or ask more, they surely will. All of that is in God's hands.
M@tt
-
Hi ya'll this has been an awesome thread! It has been a meaty discussion and I need some time to go through and look at what ya'll said and give reply but with the Holiday's I'm kinda stretched- so bear with me. I will get back to you... Thank's for taking the time to reply to my question!
Happy Holidays!
Blessings, Paula :)
-
I agree, this has been an awesome thread.
It has given me a lot to think about and to look deeper into myself.
Thanks Paula.
Iris
-
Hi Anne,
I finally have some time to go through and reply to some of the post here. I really appreciate you taking the time to go through my questions and give a reply.
1. "Do you think we should share our revelation of Universal Salvation with others." - Yes for the simple fact of the Great Commission. It exhorts us to go to all ends of the world with the Good News. Now what is the Good News? That would be John 3:16.
That so resonates with my spirit! It fills me with JOY! What a privilege we have to share the GOOD NEWS! Why would we want to contain it? Amen!
2. "Do you think that we should boldly proclaim it? - Do you know where Paul is talking about how he is boldly proclaiming the good news? I am sure it is in one of the epistles but the gist goes something like this, "Therefore brethern exhort[or encourage] one another as long as it is called Today." [AGAIN - I apologize for messing this Scripture up, if I have.] What better way to encourage each other and others than boldly proclaiming the Good News.
It is by the Holy Spirit that we have such Boldness to speak forth His Word! It is a confidence and assurance of what God says is true. It is also wonderful to be with like minded believers to encourage one another in the faith by boldly proclaiming the Good News.
3. "Or should we keep it to ourselves." - Jesus did not keep salvation to himself. It was for all men. There is a Scripture that says - God is not willing that any man should perish but that all men might come to be saved and to know him. No we should not keep it to ourselves. Universal salvation is for everyone. Universal - in the essence of the words demands to be shared with everyone.
I didn't mean for us to keep the gospel to ourselves. What I meant was not make an issue of UR with our Christian friends. I am not opposed to sharing. I was just wondering if we knew that it would offend someone and they were not receptive if we should proceed in telling them. I do not desire to keep it to myself. I want to tell everyone but I want to use discretion and not push people away with a message they are not ready to hear. Does that make sense? Yes Universal Salvation is for everyone! Praise God! I trust the Lord WILL lead me in these situations.
4. "Should we only share with Christains so we do not make non-Christains and fell no need for Christ." - All mankind feel a drawing to a higher power in this case God. God has predestined all of us to come to know him. Everything that happens is in his perfect and holy will. The bible says that nothing can thwart the will of God. Yes we need to share with these people. God uses all circumstances and all words to his purpose. We will not be able to discern all his purpose, but he knows.
You are right. I realize my lack of faith by asking this question It is hard to shake this "I'm in control type" thinking sometimes. God is in control! It is all about His purpose and plan and nothing I say is going to thwart His Plan. It is God that does the drawing. God has given us the privilege of being co- laborers with Christ. Sometimes we just scatter seeds and we never know what might grow. Isn't that wonderful!
5. There is a Scripture that says that he comes not in peace but to divide or with a sword. Mothers against Fathers. Parents against children. No matter what happens, all will come together in the end. We are not commanded to understand this fully, we are commanded and exhorted to spread the good News. Ray is an awesome example of spreading the Truth no matter the opposition. He has faced so much trouble from the people that are so entrenched in Babylon, yet he still stands up for the truth. That is what God tells us to do.
Yes we will face opposition and we may lose friends and respect of family that is part of our walk. I understand we must stand for truth irregardless! But we should respect where someone else is in their walk- remembering were we came from.
So more points to add to this. Remember when Jesus was telling his disciples when they would come into questioning about their faith, he said that the Holy Spirit would prompt them as to what they should say. Jesus does not change and will not change. When we are witnessing the good news we need to let the Holy Spirit prompt us and be careful that we do no let our own emotions and agenda get in the way. If you are going to share the Good News, say a prayer that the words that Jesus wants to be shared with that person, will come out of your mouth and nothing more and nothing less. Nothing can go wrong this way. Sure you may face opposition, but remember the opposition that Jesus faced when he preaching the Good News. He faced death, but in the end to a glorious purpose, and truth triumphed. It looked like the end of the world before the end came.
This is the bottom line. I need to trust that God will guide me in ALL situations! And I believe he will. Thanks for reminding me of the obvious!
A song that I reminded of I want to share.
"I'm pressed but not persecuted.
Struck down but not destroyed.
I am blessed beyond the curse
for his promises endure
His joy is gonna be my strength,
Tho sorrows may last for the night
Joy comes in the morning.
I'm trading my sorrow
I'm trading my pain,
I'm laying them down for the joy of the Lord."
And what is the joy of Lord? The Good News.
Amen Sister you sing it! Yes the Good News! awh now I can rest. Amen- He has done it all. He loves us and will not leave us. We can trust that He will lead us and show us what to do, where to go and what to say. Hey that reminds me of another song.., naw it's late.
Share and share and share. I read somewhere else in another thread, it is NOT us who bring people to the Father, it is Christ and the Holy Spirit that brings them to the Father. We are merely tools that accomplsih this purpose. And what an honor this is.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
I need to remember that it is not me it is Christ. Thanks for reminding me! Yes we must share and scatter the seeds.
Thank you Anne for sharing your thoughts with me on this. You have blessed me and given me insight and wisdom.
Bless you sister,
Paula
-
Hi Paula.
Thanks for raising this interesting question, it is often on my mind. For me personally, I am always aware of the ministry given to us, the ministry of (universal) reconciliation. With the message of reconciliation comes the message of the Cross.
2Co 5:14 for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,
2Co 5:15 and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again.
2Co 5:16 So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more;
2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin [offering], that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
[YLT]
See also Colossians 1:20-21, Romans 5:10, Ephesians 2:15-16 for a few more reconciliation verses.
If/when we share this message of UR, then for me, the above verses can be used to make known the Gospel of Jesus Christ. How I see it: In these verses we have what Jesus is: a sin offering, what He did; reconcile the world to God & paid our sin debt (not reckoning our sins against us, ie: salvation). How many did Jesus die for: All (Praise God!). What should the person therefore do in return: be reconciled to God, no longer living for themselves but for Him who died for them (and us). We have been given the Word of Reconciliation (the Gospel). When we share UR we should not lose heart if the person does not accept the message, God is not calling them at that time, we need not wrestle with them ;). We can therefore confidently move on, leaving it to God's Holy Spirit to do the rest.
Just some thoughts. Hope this helps you in some way. Others here have given some great advise, thanks.
God bless and keep you. :)
Andrevan.
-
I am going to be with relatives next week and I am dreading if this should come up. Like if they say, "How's church been?" Uh, I haven't been in 6 months. Then they say "why not" then I say...,...here is where I am stuck! Actually I really don't want to talk about it at all. They are way into Christendom and think we are deranged the way we have hopped around these last 30 years.
I hope things went well with you and your family over the Holiday's. Did you get an opportunity to share? It is hard when people have preconceived ideas about us. But it is good that you have been actively seeking. I think people can become comfortable and stale in their thinking not to continue to grow and change.
The last time I tried to talk to a friend about this they were very polite but didn't want to know anymore. The time before that I shared my excitement w/ a best friend who did not believe one word even w/ all the scripture I presented. The very first time I talked about it after discovering Ray's site it was almost a knock down drag out!
I think that is the time that we have to back off. I have experienced this with my Orthodox husband. He really doesn't want to hear what I have to say and I have been guilty of pressing trying to make Him Understand the Good News. It doesn't work! It only alienates people.
So....Ray's article is a Godsend. It has helped me not feel guilty to not say anything, but also to answer back in love about the hope that I have IF anyone asks me.
Love,
gena
Very Good. It is not our work anyways it is the Spirit's work in us to lead and guide and teach us what to say! Amen
Thanks for sharing, Gena!
I appreciate it!
Blessings, Paula
-
Hi Paula,
I'm glad to see you back :)
In regards to your question.
If it is God's will for us to share what we have learned, He will cause a person to ask.
Thanks for the warm welcome. I need to spend more time with like minded believers instead of trying to
convert the orthodox believers on other forums. I've been a bad girl. Truly, I need to wait on the spirit's
leading like you said instead of arguing about doctrine. It does help sharpen the sword though to have
to give an answer to what you believe.
1Pe 3:14 But if you also suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed. And do not fear their fear, nor be troubled,
1Pe 3:15 but sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason of the hope in you, with meekness and fear;
1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, that while they speak against you as evildoers they may be shamed, those falsely accusing your good behavior in Christ.
Yes if we are persecuted let it be for righteousness sake not our own foolishness! And we need to be ready to give an answer for our hope when asked. Good Scriptures!
I have spoken of the Truth to family members and a few close friends a little, mainly to tell them I was not going to church anymore.
I don't live close to my extended family, and we've never discussed it since then, because they have never ask anything more.
If they did ask I would be glad to share with them or anyone, but I do not try to explain the Truth or even bring it up to anyone.
That is how I handle it.
It is a solitary journey of studying and learning.
I am so thankful for the forum, this is a wonderful place of fellowship.
Thanks for sharing how you handle it with your family and friends. It is a solitary journey of learning and studying. I have finally come to a place to where my questions have mostly been answered so I am ready to share with others if that is what God would have me do. Other than my husband and older children, I've told my mother and she took it well but wasn't too inquisitive. Like you said it is probably better to wait until they ask before trying to share more.
I too am glad for a place of like-minded fellowship! Praise God!
This is a resent email to Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2537.0.html ----------------------
Dear Beth:
Don't try to convert anyone. Be the best wife, mother, and friend that anyone could have, and THAT is the best thing that you and everyone else can do (unless you are a man, then, of course, the best husband, etc.,). You will never, ever, ever win someone over by a clever argument with the Scriptures. There are two reason why I do this and you shouldn't: [1] I am being a witness AGAINST all the heretics that attack me and the Truths of God, and [2] my answers to their foolish and unscriptural arguments are a great teaching tool for all those who read our site and who visit our Forum.
But in my private life, I do not try to convert, convince, change, etc., my neighbors and acquaintences. I will tell them the truth about God and the Scriptures, but I do not make a pest of myself. If and when people ask you, give them only as much as then need and are willing to accept. If they desire more, they will come back.
I would suggest you buy a Emphasized Bible by Joseph Rotherham. It is on a par with the Concordant Version, and it is Old and New in one volume, plus you can find it at any large Bible Book Store, and it will probably be considerably less expensive.
Don't study to be a scholar. Just learn what you need to know. Learn it until you know it and believe it, not so that you can win a debate in a room full of theologians. Things like "aion/aionios" will become clear after much study. "Free will" may also take awhile. Some fight it for years before they accept it. I personally immediately accepted it when I saw it and I was delighted to know it, as I was when I learned of the salvation of all. I find it hard to understand why so many hundreds email me and still think that they find Scriptures that contradict the free will/free choice heresy. Anyway, don't become discouraged.
You can certainly accomodate your husband's desire as much as is possible without partaking of his religion with him. I can certainly sit in a church and listen to a minister teach his heresy, without sinning. I would have no reason, however, to do this on a regular basis. Just give it time. "Don't be righteous over much" (Ecc. 7:16). God will direct your path. And who knows whether God will not begin to open your husband's mind in the future.
God be with you,
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a good word from Ray! It makes sense and gives a lot more freedom that we don't have to be on a mission to save the world and make known our beliefs. We just need to know what we know and be able to give an answer for it if someone ask. Amen!
Thanks for sharing Kat!
Blessings, Paula
-
1Ti 4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
1Ti 4:11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.
I have thought of this verse. If we be teaching and charging anything it is that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World. But as someone else has mentioned that can be as simple as showing that God loves people not just the elect but those in the whole world. Amen! We have been given the Ministry of Reconciliation to turn people to Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for the remission of the worlds sin.
Amen!
-
Here is a portion of http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm (Winning Souls for Jesus?)
Thanks for sharing the link Hillsbororiver! I have read it before but it was good to read it again. It is hard to overcome old ways of thinking sometime. I have to remind myself and be ever learning. We can't win souls for Christ that is the spirit's work. We are to scatter, tend & water seeds as co laborers. We may get to harvest if that is the Lord's will. Amen!
Thanks for sharing Hillsbororiver!
Blessings, Paula
-
Hi Paula.
You wrote :
I haven't been around for awhile so "hi" ya'll. How ya been? If I could jump on in there with a question. I thought this would be a good place to ask. I have been thinking about some things and I am perplexed. Do you think that we should share our revelation of Universal Salvation with others?
I do not think there is anything wrong with sharing our excitement over what we have been shown as long as it is done without wanting to convert or persuade or brow beat anyone. As long as we do not debate, try to show anyone wrong or try to look, or sound superior.
That is good advice but hard for me. My default mode is all that you mentioned, debating, showing error, sounding superior, etc., I really need to submit to Christ on these matters. I don't mean to be this way. It started long ago when I was in the SDA church and I had to show people that the sabbath was required. Ha! I've come a long way by the Spirit! Praise God!
Should we boldly proclaim it?
Here is where the problem lies with boldy proclaiming anything unless you are David running up to Goliath.
Boldly – Collins English Dictionary. Courageous, confident, and fearless; ready to take on risks.
Courage – the power or quality of dealing with or facing danger, fear, pain etc.
So this is not the way to go according to what the scriputures say…… :)
I think there is a Holy Boldness that can come over us when we are operating in the spirit. I am not talking about an arrogant forceful spirit. When I asked this I was thinking more of Standing in this truth and letting everyone know and if they want to inquire further they can. (I was thinking of putting it on myspace.)
Or keep it to ourselves?
We are told not to hide our light under a bushel. But remember light does not make any sound. It shows up by contrast......
Good Analogy!
Should we only share with Christians so we do not make non-Christians stumble and feel no need for Christ?
If we only share with Christians we do the same whether to pagans or to Christians. Christendom is Mystery Babylon out which we were called to come out.
Or does it even really matter if we share with Christians since they are already saved?
I do not believe anyone is saved. Not until Christ returns Heb 9 : 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, BUT TO BRING TO FULL SALVATION those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.
God has shown me that there I revealed a lack of faith in asking this question. It is God that draws people and if they are drawn they will come. If they are not being drawn at this time they will not come. As you mentioned it is important for Christians need to hear this message too so they will come out of Mystery Babylon.
You are right no one is saved. We are being saved. (old habit)
At what risk should we acknowledge this hope? The loss of friends?
Yes at the loss of friends and family…..and the discovery of new friends and family in Christ.
I am willing to do all that the Lord would have me do. I just don't want to share a message that I don't believe someone
would be receptive to and alienate people. New friends and family in Christ sounds wonderful!
Do you think sharing this info with non-Christians would make them put off accepting Christ?
Decidedly yes if you go boldly. :D No if you are approaching meekly, gently and in the wisdom way and manner of Christ.
Good answer!
Here is an excerpt from LOF Part 15
THE SCRIPTURAL PROCESS OF CONVERSION
The truth of conversion is a simple one, if we believe the Scriptures and don’t try to bring it about by some phantom free will. It is all of God.
How do the Scriptures say we become converted? Does an ounce of "free will" enter into the conversion process according to the Scriptures?
1. "Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness [‘His goodness;’ not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God’s ‘leading’ is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Rom. 2:4). Where is the ‘free will’ in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not free will.
2. "No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.
3. "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16). "I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.
4. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). It is not by the ‘free will’ of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.
5. "I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5). According to God’s Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.
6. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:11). Is this man’s part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12). Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus, Lord.
7. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).
Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God’s faith, God’s gift, God’s Workmanship, God’s creating, God’s ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.
I could go on and on like this for a hundred pages. I could go through the entire Bible proving that all is of God, not of man’s will. It is always God; it is never man’s will that is the first cause of all things. Nowhere in the entirety of the Bible is there anything suggesting that man has a "free will." Man’s will is not free. Man has a will, but it is not free from the causes that make it do what it does.
Millions and millions of times it is stated by the clergy that man must live by his "free will" that God gave him. God never goes against our own free will, we are told. Hogwash!
Since God says we cannot obey Him with our natural mind [our own God-given will], and yet we have much Scriptural proof that God does cause men to do what He wants, then we also have proof that God does go against man’s will, and He does it often.
"For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
According to Christendom, this verse is a fraud. We are taught that, "It is OUR OWN FREE WILL that works IN us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure." But no, it is God Who works in us both to will and to do. There is no "free moral agency" at work in this verse of God’s Word or anywhere else, for God’s Word does not contradict. These Scriptures I am giving you are so very simple and so very plan, yet, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Thanks for sharing that from Ray's writing. I have read it before but it has been a while, it is good to refresh my memory and read it again. I appreciate you replying to my questions, Arcturus!
Blessings, Paula
-
Hello Paula,
I agree with Arcturus I believe he has given you sound advice, I would have answered the same. However we are all distinct and unique individuals and for this reason we will all handle situations differently.
As a believer in Jesus Christ, as one who has been transferred from darkness into the light, as one who has been set free from slavery to sin, as one who has experienced the love of the lord, chosen to know the truth.... the good news.... how could I ever contain this hidden treasure??? The Spirit of the Lord is within me, I have been anointed to set the captives free, to bring liberty to the oppressed to give sight to the blind, to share the love of the Lord with a dead and dying world.
I feel it is my responsibility to share the truth, in love with no hidden agenda, to all that I cross paths with, just once. I am also convinced that God has brought me into this wonderful, glorious experience for no other reason than to share the Good News. I have shared this message with all types and no one has ever been offended. I don't get involved in discussing doctrine, the way I live my life speaks for it's self and when the opportunity presents, I simply share my experience not knowledge.... my experience of being awakened and filled with a love and a joy that I never knew apart from Christ.
My life is a miracle no longer one of the many walking dead, I have been given life, a heart of flesh, I have an open line of communication with the Lord, I am complete in Christ. I know, that I know, that I know.... He is who He says He is. How can I meet someone and know that they are void of Christ, dead, incomplete, lost, stumbling through this life and not mention Christ, and what He has done for me? I can not. I am in no way considered a religious fanatic by people who I have crossed paths with. As for my Christian acquaintance's still in Babylon at least I know they have heard the truth, that is comforting to me. As knew believers the 1st thing we do is run to a church were we are fed a bunch of lies. I thank God that I stumbled across Ray's teachings and was able to receive the truth.
I am not trying to win souls for Jesus but everyone who knows me will know of Christ simply because He is a part of me, the best part of me.
I can not bury my treasure, it is so beautiful, so precious, it is the power of God to salvation for all men, a word that gives life to the dead. Again we are all unique individuals with our own style, I love sharing Gods word with others, I feel it is the most loving deed I could ever do for another individual. If I sense they are going to be uptight than I know to redirect the conversation, but that has not been my experience most people like to talk about God and I let them talk about their God and I just keep sharing truths a little here a little there.
I also believe the scriptures reveal that the disciples where certainly sharing the gospel. God is using His people to deliver His message, yes it has all been predetermined everyone will be saved, God is right now speaking through his people we are a part of the plan. I've seen lives healed because I have shared.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
I press forward to obtain the high calling of God, to be a priest of God and reign with Christ. I have always thought that those who are chosen will be revealing Christ, until all have been converted in the ages to come.
God bless,
Kennymac
Kennymac,
What you shared is so inspirational! I am teared up and I feel the JOY rise within me! It resonates with my spirit! I WANT TO BE LIKE THAT! As you mentioned we are all individuals and handle things differently so there is no right or wrong way as long as it is done in love with meekness of spirit. But I want everyone I know to know the hope that lies within me- the Good News! I'm glad to hear that you have been able to share without offending or trying to convert people. I want to have friends like you! Maybe your zeal
and ability to share would rub off on me. ha ha
Thanks for sharing your experience with me, Kennymac!
May you be blessed!
~Paula
-
I say this from experience. Our beliefs can cause major division in our personal relationships. My wife believes the more "standard" and mainline teaching of salvation by choice, hell fire, yada yada yada. I tried to tell her what I believe is the truth and a huge argument ensued. For this reason I'll say this: don't force the issue. That's not to say keep quiet, never say it, keep it secret, for that's not what the Word says to do. We're told to proclaim the truth. However, it doesn't say force the issue, fight and argue about it until everyone's angry at each other.
I'd suggest saying it once, or having one discussion about it, then drop it. If they want to know or ask more, they surely will. All of that is in God's hands.
M@tt
I have the similar situation. My husband is an Orthodox believer and when I have tried to share with him we always in up arguing. I know it is wrong but I just want him to see so badly! Sometimes I think I have found the perfect article or scripture to convince him but the results are always the same. I really just need to lay off. It is not my work it is the God's work to draw him. I am getting better but every once in a while I get excited about a scripture or something and I just have to share. My husband is usually receptive to hearing (some things) he just doesn't want me to try and convince him. Which I shouldn't do anyways.
Thanks for sharing Matt!
Blessings, Paula
-
I want to thank you all for replying to my post. While it is difficult to reply to everyone I want you all to know that I appreciate it!
I have dropped in occasionally to lurk but I would like to spend more time in getting to know you all here and build friendships. I need to spend less time arguing with Orthodox Christians on other forums and spend more time building relationships with like minded believers!
Blessings, Paula :)
-
Paula,
I would really like to get to know you on this end. I really enjoy reading your posts. Keep 'em coming. God bless.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Hello Paula
If your talents are seeds and your seeds are your words and your words you are going to have to account for…….think about this….where are you spending, investing or wasting your talents?….where are you sowing your seeds on hard, stony or thorny ground and what words are you going to give account for in your final analysis before God.
Matt 12 : 35,36 The good man from his inner good treasure flings forth good things, and the evil man out of his inner evil storehouse flings forth evil things. 36 but I tell you, on the day of judgment men will have to give account for every idle inoperative nonworking word they speak.
This is to encourage you in your perception that debate is futile and argument is pointless. Fellowship is good seed that I feel is like light. It warms encourages and builds up. Salt is like I see in Rays responses to his detractors. It stings, purifies and is anything but luke warm! The pearls of wisdom are in the teachings written by Ray for us that share insights and treasures found in Gods word to us.
so I want to say I agree and want to encourage you in your insight gained through experience that yes as you say it is better to : spend less time arguing with Orthodox Christians on other forums and spend more time building relationships with like minded believers! AMEN :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Arcturus,
If your talents are seeds and your seeds are your words and your words you are going to have to account for…….think about this….where are you spending, investing or wasting your talents?….where are you sowing your seeds on hard, stony or thorny ground and what words are you going to give account for in your final analysis before God.
I really like how you put this, 'your seeds are your words'.
I was thinking how this also applies to our everyday conversation as well,
not just as we are shareing the truth.
In our everyday conversation we may be more liable to speak an 'idle word',
because we are not on guard so much.
I know what is really in your heart tends to come out when you speak before you think about it.
But these careless words, we will have to answer for also.
Just a thought I wanted to add :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Hello Kat
build and encourage any time Kat! That is why I believe we are here! ;D.....so let me build on what you have added please.... :D You wrote : this also applies to our everyday conversation as well,...Yes...cemented!.....I think you will have also read where Ray defined our works being our THOUGHTS WORDS AND DEEDS. So if we think in words and speak in words and communicate in words.....and if our seeds are WORDS......then out of the abundance of our hearts our mouth speaks......God sees our HEARTS and in the end the motives of our HEARTS will be judged.
Also if we judge ourselves we will not be judged........
How is that do you think. Does anything have to come down or can we build on that too ;D
Lets start a thread Kat ;D What are your motives?.........I wonder what would happen if we did?.....
I am off.....will have to check my own motives first before I open it okay? ...... ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Kat and Arcturus,
Go ahead and start that new thread. The topic is taking a unique turn that deserves it's own topic. Thanks for posing ladies, these were some good reads. Keep posting.
I needed those truthful words Arcturus and Kat. It is so hard to implement those in my life right now.
God bless you two.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Build and encourage indeed!!! ;D
Everytime I come to this forum, I am built-up and come away with a heart felt peace.
Thanks guys for the wonderful posts. :)
Iris
-
Arcturus and Kat,
There's my second witness, thanks Iris, okay start the new thread. We are waiting for it. If your posts have blessed us well then imagine what the thread will do for us. Thanks for you willingness and openenss to share with us all.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Hello Paula
I am going to answer your comment : I'm sorry but now I am a little confused. ??? Could you elaborate on this in congruency with what you said above?
When I was young Paula, my parents sent me to art school. The first thing that my art teacher taught me was to go and look at the sky. I had to sit outside during my first lesson and simply look at the sky. The lesson was to notice the sky and see what was in it and the colours that were displayed. At first glance I saw the sky alright but did not notice it. My art teacher asked me what I saw and then showed me that I was actually not seeing the sky as I should because it held so much more than a first surface glance could perceive. After some training and practise required to adapt and fully receive the skill of noticing rather than just seeing the sky, I realized that before my training I only saw the sky as blue with clouds but with training now I could discern the sky as blue with a hint of turquoise to the top of the sky and a haze of purple at the line where the earth met the sky on that particular day. I saw the gold and pink in otherwise just white clouds. I began to notice the transparency of some clouds and the thick density of others. I saw and noticed the sky because I was being trained in the art of seeing and interpreting the sky onto canvas. Now if the canvas is the mind and the Scripture is the sky we have to know, understand and disern the words. My personal expereince and disclosure that I went to art school and found out how to see, has some bearing on the way I am approaching answering your comment : So are you saying that while fellowship is good we shouldn't stay there- that debate and argument has it's purpose being salt?
Kat has shared that Ray often says, "notice the words." You may have also come across some of Ray’s e-mail responses wherein he points out that many times he receives e-mails that accuse or assume that he has said something he has neither written or meant or would even teach or think yet it is assumed that he has said or taught something he has not meant or said or taught.
I believe this is a wide spread occurrence in people who hear one thing and assume that it means something that they assume or think it means.
So here are a few simple comments for you to illustrate this point. I did not say that while fellowship is good we shouldn’t stay there. I did not say that debate and argument has it’s purpose being salt.
Look again my words……Debate is futile and argument is pointless.... Why then would you assume that my meaning was not what I was saying? Why then did you assume that I meant that debate and argument has a purpose being salt? I could ask myself the same question in art school. Why did I think the sky was blue with white clouds when it was not blue with white clouds but it was grey, turquoise, lilac and contrasted with opaque and thick and wispy cloud formations that were skyscraper high and held the grey colour of rain coming and the sun lit up the back ground to show gentle depths of pink and gold etc etc…..Assumtions can lead to error. Revelation leads to comprehension and understanding. So lets look at this again and let us reason together……
Look again and see what I wrote about salt. I wrote that salt stings, purifies and is anything but luke warm. So why did you think that debate, which I wrote is futile and argument is pointless, meant that debate and argument has its purpose being salt? Have you perhaps made the assumption that salt is debate and argument and in placing the question mark at the end of your observation you I believe you express uncertainty with your conclusion and you invite clarification. Okay so in responce for clarification..... Compare Rays paper on You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes! Then
ompare what Paul says by noticing his words in 2 Cor 10 : 5 Inasmuch as we refute arguments and theories and reasoning’s and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God, and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ.
Lets read that again :D……Inasmuch as we REFUTE…….Oh! refute….REFUTE…. What does refute mean? And what is Paul refuting? Lets look again.....is not Paul refuting arguments, theories and reasoning’s (debate)? Do you believe as I do that argument, debate and disputing originate out of a un-teachable prideful spirit that sets itself up not Christ up as the true knowledge of God? What does Pauls example teach and show us all. Paul leads all debate, arguments and lofty things that set themselves up against Christ , Paul leads captive into the obedience of Christ. How? How does Paul do this? He refutes arguments, debates and the pride filled spirit that sets itself up as its own authority.
In order to grasp how and what Paul means I need to understand the words Paul uses, just one word, REFUTE. I have to know what that word means or I will be left to my own understanding and to lean on my own understanding is not a wise place to lean on! Refute is not deny. :o Deny is like you say it is black and I say it is white and so we argue, disagree and debate and we bring in discord, disharmony and division. Ego enters and the fruite of Christs Sprit leaves while you say I say, you are right I am wrong issues take up centre stage. Paul refuted arguements. The word Paul uses is REFUTE. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE. Deny is simply luke warm but refute, now that is real salt!
Refute is often used incorrectly as a synonym of deny. In careful usage, however, to deny something is to state that it is untrue; to refute something is to assemble evidence in order to prove it untrue: all he could do was deny the allegations since he was unable to refute them. (Collins English Dictionary)
Refute is with evidence and proof. Deny is without evidence or proof. Refute is salt relatively speaking. :D ...with evidence. Argument and debate is not evidence. Evolution has not evidence but much theories and debates and arguments! :D
The reason why I wrote debate is futile and argument is pointless is because it is rooted in denial, idolitary, false teachings, half truths for which there is no evidence or proof of truth. Jesus said to His detractors that they neither knew the Scriptures nor the power of God. He was speaking to the hightly educated Pharisees! He told them that they were children of Satan. There is no teachable spirit present in debate and argument and what Jesus said was the truth. The Pharasees wanted to be right and have a floowing and they went far and wide to get it. When the self or the ego is dictating and going after a need to agree or be right which is the idol of the heart that raises itself up against true knowledge of God, then peace is not persued, bonds of peace and fellowship in like mindedness are not cultivated and neither is Christ considered. Non of us are good. Non of us are right. Non but God and Christ are good and in right standing. We are imitations in the process of Gods work in us which is bringing us into closer replica of the image of Christ Spirit within us that is Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness,Goodness, Patience, Gentleness, Faithfulness and Long Suffering.
Paul, like Christ refuted with evidence such idolatry argumentative debating God haters who hate the truth and prefer approval for error. Look what Paul wrote to the Galatians Chapter 3. O you poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians’! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you……and then Paul continued to lead the Galatians captive to Christ by teaching that Christ supplies and works powerfully and miraculously among them as He is doing among us too in this Forum. Christ purchased our freedom as He has done for us too making us free from the Law for those who now believe who now adhere to and now trust in and rely on HIM. Paul used salt to expose and show up as in error his detractors. He corrected, exhorted with evidence of the truth and those who were correctable, teachable were indeed convicted. Those who preferred their idols and who turned away from sound doctrine, preferring the easy sounding ear stroking teachings of demons, were not convinced and they turned away neither having ears to hear or eyes to see. Many are called and few are chosen.
So how will this post be recieved do you think Paula? Will what I have written here fall on hard ground, stony or thorny ground or on soft ground? Are these words tares or wheat seeds? Are these words as a sweet fragrance or are they a smell of doom?
Some students go to art school to learn art and they are teachable and others are not. I am here in this Forum to hear and see and learn Christ. I hope that what I have painted in this dialogue of words shows HIM up more than me for HE is our beloved teacher. In this we share and I hope that you have grasped a useful technique I have learnt that has blessed me which I have learnt and received only from the Master our Lord. Look at the words.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Arcturus,
That was a very good explaination of how we have to pay close attention to every word of the scripture or of someone's post as well.
You most certainly did paint a very nice picture of what you were saying.
Maybe that is why your posts are clear and understandable for me,
because you use the technique of painting pictures in the mind, with your words :)
mercy peace, and love
Kat
-
Kat
........it is only a joy to be "building up" with you. It is encouraging Iris that you are being blessed. :) ....that is so wonderful that it blesses me too :D
Anne, I read your enthusiasm for a new thread on MOTIVES....It was really sweet of you and what can I say.....I was drawn away to respond to Paula....and also have been busy to answer Gena on the Corinthinans 13 thread.....
A new thread on Motives simply faded for now...... Hope you understand that this does not mean that you should not open such a thread though. :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hello Paula
What more can I say :D ?
Peace to you
Arcturus
-
Arcturus,
I understand. Perhaps the thread will come about at a later point of time. Good thread by the way.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
1 Corinthians 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
Salvation is a personal thing, and it not really important who is saved and not saved. What is important is that you believe Jesus is the way and only way to your salvation. God will lead everyone to this knowledge in his own time. Also do not try to give a truth to a person who does not want it? Truth like all virtue is a heavenly treasure.
Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
For me I would say salvation is best summed up in 1Co 3, and specially 1Co 3:11 to 3:15
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.
-
God will lead everyone to this knowledge in his own time. Also do not try to give a truth to a person who does not want it? Truth like all virtue is a heavenly treasure.
Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Thanks for your reply rvhill. I appreciate all that you wrote but I quoted what I think sums it up. I like what you wrote: "Truth like all virtue is a heavenly treasure". I never thought of it like that before- that's good! I have come to the conclusion that it is best not to share with anyone who doesn't want to hear it and as you pointed out- that's scriptural.
Blessings,
Paula
-
I don't consider myself a universalist. I think most universalist miss the point. I know there is no afterlife. There is just life and death. Through Jesus there is the hope of a second life. Most people seem to be worried about who will be saved or not, when they need to worry about how they will be saved. Also they seem to forget that there is more then salvation to be gained or lose, as in 1Co 3 and other verses. As Paul point out, will you suffer loss or a reward. Salvation is a free gift given by the blood of Jesus.
Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
-
I don't consider myself a universalist. I think most universalist miss the point. I know there is no afterlife. There is just life and death. Through Jesus there is the hope of a second life. Most people seem to be worried about who will be saved or not, when they need to worry about how they will be saved. Also they seem to forget that there is more then salvation to be gained or lose, as in 1Co 3 and other verses. As Paul point out, will you suffer loss or a reward. Salvation is a free gift given by the blood of Jesus.
Matthew 6:20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
I am so confused, what does this mean?
Everytime I think I'm beginning to understand and get the puzzle pieces put together I come across something else that makes no sense to me at all compared to the other things I've been learning?
"no aferlife"?
"Most people seem to be worried about who will be saved or not, when they need to worry about how they will be saved"
please explain.....
-
Hi Michele,
I think what rvhill was saying, is that all will be saved in the end.
We should be thinking about how, as in the first resurrection or the lake of fire.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
What the churches teach is all you have to do is believe and you will be zipped into a heavenly paradise, when you die.
There is so much more to it.
Everyone will give an account and will be judged, for everything they have done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
So for those that think they believe in Christ is all they need, and don't have a thing to worry about, well the lake of fire is going to be a real shock. Everybody is going to have to answer, for everything that they think they are getting away with now. It is not going to be a good experience for them, that is what I think the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is all about.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Everybody will have to learn obedience, now judgment on the elect is easier, later in the lake of fire, it will not be a hard experience for the rest.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
I have come to believe that the most important thing is not to be double minded, but rather to openly express our true beliefs, without fear of rejection.
I have observed that there are people, and I have -- sad to say -- at times been one of them, who do not allow their expression to represent always what they really are and believe inside. They just blend right in anywhere, no matter what. Jesus would call such "hypocrites." Hypocrite means "actor." We act out a role depending on the situation, and that means hiding our true selves.
if we truly believe there is no eternal hell as taught in most churches, then we should not pretend that we do when it is convenient for our comfort zone to do so. We should not sit close mouthed while someone assumes that we believe a certain way, just so we will not be rejected by those people. We don't have to go around creating situations where we can start preaching at people; nevertheless, we should express, if called upon, the truth as we see it.
For example, if someone is having a personal conversation with you and starts talking about how some "evil person" is going to get his in hell, we should not just smile and nod our heads in agreement. We should pray that God will give us the proper words to express what we really believe -- which includes Scriptural references.
I have been asking God to give me boldness to speak at such times, and the right words to say. I feel I cannot be much use to His calling or purpose if I meekly hide because I am afraid of ridicule. It is hard to go against the tide; but as believers we are called many times to do just that.
-
WELCOME to the Forum Marycee!
Agreement is key! Do we pass as agreeable with heresy or do we shine our light in the darkness?
Matt 10 : 33 But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Hi Michele,
I think what rvhill was saying, is that all will be saved in the end.
We should be thinking about how, as in the first resurrection or the lake of fire.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.
it also important why we are saved. As in why is God righteous, and why are not, as an example.
What the churches teach is all you have to do is believe and you will be zipped into a heavenly paradise, when you die.
There is so much more to it.
Everyone will give an account and will be judged, for everything they have done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
So for those that think they believe in Christ is all they need, and don't have a thing to worry about, well the lake of fire is going to be a real shock. Everybody is going to have to answer, for everything that they think they are getting away with now. It is not going to be a good experience for them, that is what I think the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is all about.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Everybody will have to learn obedience, now judgment on the elect is easier, later in the lake of fire, it will not be a hard experience for the rest.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Technically everyone goes in to the lake of fire. God is a fire and the believes become like God a fire. So, God and the believers are the like of fire. The process of becoming like God, a fire, is more painful for some then others.
Here a thing which will really bake your noodle.
Rev 14:11 like the rest of Revelations, but I don't think it mean what most people think it means. First who are the worshipers of the beast and who or what is the beast. Paul said that the beast sits in the temple of God, but Paul also say that the we are are temple of God. So how can any man sit in you? So you can't take it literally. Paul also say that everyone has a son of perdition(beast) in them. So if everyone is a worshiper of the beast then who is saved?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
-
Hello rvhill
I believe you answer your own question here.
You ask : So if everyone is a worshiper of the beast then who is saved?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Those who are God's temple are saved because God will destroy anyone who destroys God's temple.
Who destroys God's temple? Those who oppose and exalt themselves above God.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
As Paul writes...the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Arcturus :)