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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: jojoross on January 03, 2015, 08:41:39 PM
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Yello all,
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith OF Him"(Eph. 3:12).
"Even the righteousness OF God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe" (Rom. 3:22).
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:;16).
"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given
to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).
It looks like the kjv and some others put "OF" and the newer and more popular translations (niv, nabs, etc.) have "IN". I am trying to find the greek translations but not finding any luck. I mean these two words can change a truth here. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
God's peace,
Jordan
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I just heard an audio of Ray's that explains this (cannot remember which one).
Try searching the transcripts and you should be able to find the audio.
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Yello all,
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith OF Him"(Eph. 3:12).
"Even the righteousness OF God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe" (Rom. 3:22).
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:;16).
"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given
to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).
It looks like the kjv and some others put "OF" and the newer and more popular translations (niv, nabs, etc.) have "IN". I am trying to find the greek translations but not finding any luck. I mean these two words can change a truth here. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
God's peace,
Jordan
Hi Jordan, It is most definitely the faith OF Jesus Christ which leads to being IN Jesus Christ. Here are some added witnesses on the matter, let me know if they help:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that ['faith'] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Jordan,
In the "Why God Loves You" paper, Ray briefly discussed the "faith of" and not "faith in" Christ. Using the KJV translation of Gal. 2:20, Ray inserted an explanation which is in BOLD below.
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of [faith 'of,' not faith 'in' -- it is Christ's faith in us, not our faith in Him that saves us. It does not become "our faith" until God gives it to us. It is a gift.] the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
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Don't forget James!
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Faith is a gift! :)
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I have no definitive answer, but here's another passage to add to this.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified withG4957 Christ:G5547 neverthelessG1161 I live;G2198 yet notG3765 I,G1473 butG1161 ChristG5547 livethG2198 inG1722 me:G1698 andG1161 the life whichG3739 I nowG3568 liveG2198 inG1722 the fleshG4561 I liveG2198 byG1722 the faithG4102 of(G3588) theG3588 SonG5207 of God,G2316 who lovedG25 me,G3165 andG2532 gaveG3860 himselfG1438 forG5228 me.G1700
Strong's definition of G3588 may only help a grammarian.
G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
The scriptures YOU posted, however, don't use the word (at least I didn't find one that did)...but as the definition said, sometimes it is left out in idiomatic translation.
Try this one, the Apostolic Polyglot--as close to a 'word-for'word' translation as I have.
Eph 3:12 inG1722 whomG3739 we haveG2192 G3588 an open mannerG3954 andG2532 G3588 accessG4318 inG1722 relianceG4006 throughG1223 theG3588 beliefG4102 of his.G1473
Rom 3:22 even righteousnessG1343 G1161 of GodG2316 throughG1223 beliefG4102 of JesusG* Christ,G5547 untoG1519 allG3956 andG2532 forG1909 allG3956 the onesG3588 trusting;G4100 [3notG3756 1forG1063 2there is]G1510.2.3 a difference;G1293
Rom 3:23 for allG3956 G1063 sinnedG264 andG2532 lackG5302 theG3588 gloryG1391 G3588 of God;G2316
Gal 2:16 and knowingG1492 G1161 thatG3754 [2is notG3756 3justifiedG1344 1man]G444 fromG1537 worksG2041 of law,G3551 butG1437 G3361 throughG1223 beliefG4102 of JesusG* Christ,G5547 andG2532 weG1473 [2inG1519 3ChristG5547 4JesusG* 1trusted],G4100 thatG2443 we should be justifiedG1344 ofG1537 beliefG4102 of Christ,G5547 andG2532 notG3756 byG1537 worksG2041 of law;G3551 forG1360 notG3756 shall [3be justifiedG1344 4byG1537 5worksG2041 6of lawG3551 1anyG3956 2flesh].G4561
Gal 3:22 ButG235 [3consignedG4788 1theG3588 2scripture]G1124 the wholeG3588 G3956 underG5259 sin,G266 thatG2443 theG3588 promiseG1860 ofG1537 beliefG4102 of JesusG* ChristG5547 should be givenG1325 to the onesG3588 trusting.G4100
And lastly, the one I put forward:
Gal 2:20 [2ChristG5547 1I have been crucified with],G4957 but I live,G2198 G1161 no longerG3765 I,G1473 [3livesG2198 1butG1161 4inG1722 5meG1473 2Christ];G5547 but that [2whichG3739 G1161 4nowG3568 3I 5liveG2198 6inG1722 1flesh],G4561 [2inG1722 3beliefG4102 1I live] --G2198 in the oneG3588 of theG3588 sonG5207 G3588 of God,G2316 of the oneG3588 lovingG25 me,G1473 andG2532 delivering himself upG3860 G1438 forG5228 me.G1473
Might help to put them in order too, at least within each epistle.
I know what I think (and have for quite a while) from all the above (and then some).
You're right--it makes a difference in 'understanding'. It is HIS FAITH that He gives to us. I wasn't trained to think of Jesus as having 'faith'. Wrong, paleface. ;D
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Dave, I love what you said.. And I remember hearing Ray explain that passage (or that rendering of it) in an audio a long while back, and how it was so profound to me. Yes, it was the faith OF Christ that is saving us! (If it was really all OUR faith, then we did the work.. Our salvation was then OUR doing, not His). At least that's how I saw it.
But like you (and probably everyone else here)--Before Ray--I wasn't taught that Jesus "had faith". Wow.. Of COURSE He did! Because He is indeed the "author and finisher of our faith"! Deep stuff indeed.
But, I wonder...The negative of faith is doubt. Many times, for example, when I've heard the Stones' song, Sympathy for the Devil, and thought of that line, "I was around when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain"...Well, Did Jesus ever doubt? Is doubt a necessary part of being human? Is it always sin? If not, did He partake in that? Was his moment in the garden; His anguish, His drops of blood shed in agonizing prayer... was that doubt?
What do you all think?
Michael
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Hi, Michael
Apart from that line "had his moment of of doubt," I like that song.
I've always wondered what is it about that scene in the garden when Christ "begins to be sorrowful and depressed" that the writer of that song interpreted as doubt. For me, it is this: The writer of that song is writing as if Satan is speaking. And Satan is what? A liar. Satan would have some believe that Jesus doubted because it serves to cause doubt in the hearer. If Satan can cause people to believe that Jesus actually had a doubt, well, that makes Jesus out to be a sinner who gave into temptation. When Jesus was tempted, He never sinned. Doubt means to hesitate to believe; a feeling of uncertainty about the truth. Do you think that Jesus fell to the temptation to doubt the truth of Who He was? Well, if He did then we have a sinner for a savior, and I don't think we want to go there. ;)
His Father made sure that He didn't give in to the temptation to doubt.
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p.s. In case the writer of the song was referring to the time when Jesus quoted the Psalm: "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" while on the cross, that was not a public display of doubt by Jesus. There was a time when I thought that God actually did forsake Jesus, but I don't believe that anymore. Jesus quoted a Psalm, for whatever reason, I don't know exactly why at this point in my walk but I'm confident it will make perfect sense one day. And some have tried to explain those words away but not to my satisfaction because when they do, they unintentionally make Jesus out to be doubting -- which means he lacked belief. So I don't pay any attention to their explanations. And besides, right after He said, why have you forsaken me, He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." And that is proof that Jesus didn't give into the temptation to doubt. It's really tempting to believe he had a moment of unbelief, I grant you that! But I would caution you against that. It serves no good purpose. :)
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Thanks everyone for your input. Seriously helps me tremendously (always does ;)).
Ever since I came to the knowledge that God TRULY is the Potter and I am the clay about almost a year ago (yes I keep track of the time...God works with us in time right? ;)) I have been in a real battle. I am still trying to put myself as the king sitting on the throne in God's temple and not Jesus. BUT at the same time the peace OF God is really recenating in me due to the fact that God is creatING me in His image! AND not just me But all mankind in this age or the next...I mean how amazing is that?
Its crazy how much I ponder on these marvelous truths God is opening my eyes to see. Its hard to not have people your closes with not see it. But God will have them see one day. Ahhh who can be His counselor?! Again thanks for your words everybody. It TRULY is a blessing to this wretched man :)
Gods peace,
Jordan
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p.s. In case the writer of the song was referring to the time when Jesus quoted the Psalm: "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" while on the cross, that was not a public display of doubt by Jesus. There was a time when I thought that God actually did forsake Jesus, but I don't believe that anymore. Jesus quoted a Psalm, for whatever reason, I don't know exactly why at this point in my walk but I'm confident it will make perfect sense one day. And some have tried to explain those words away but not to my satisfaction because when they do, they unintentionally make Jesus out to be doubting -- which means he lacked belief. So I don't pay any attention to their explanations. And besides, right after He said, why have you forsaken me, He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." And that is proof that Jesus didn't give into the temptation to doubt. It's really tempting to believe he had a moment of unbelief, I grant you that! But I would caution you against that. It serves no good purpose. :)
Hi Gina, this is a interesting Scripture that has been misunderstood, because the church believed that Jesus was 'made sin' and therefore the Father could not look (turned His back) on Him as such - sin.
Habakkuk 1:13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.
But Ray explained very well how Christ became a "sin offering" and certainly not sin in a 2 part Bible study. Links for anybody interested.
audio
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
I do NOT believe Christ was expressing His doubt in any way, as you were saying, but rather His desire for all this horrible suffering to be brought to an end, which it was very quickly thereafter.
Another thing is just before Christ spoke those words "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" the Jews that were gathered there to watch/gloat at His crucifixion, had said...
Mat 27:41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said,
v. 42 "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.
Christ knew these Jews knew what David had spoken in the Psalms and they also believed that passage to be speaking of the Messiah. So by His quoting that very Scripture in their hearing most clearly shows them right where it is recorded about HIM! That passage revealed He was that Messiah, and He was pointing that out them. He knew these were prophesied of Him, and fit with what was happening to Him at that very moment perfectly. It says that they "divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots (verse 18), the soldiers had just done that.
Should have left no doubt to them that passage was about Him, but it was just another record for US and another proof of who He was.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat :)
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Thank you for the links and the explanation, Kat. I listened to it a long time ago and I was very grateful for that study Ray did. I would encourage anyone to listen to it. Yes, I agree that Christ was a sin-offering. That makes perfect sense. (And for the record, in case there was any doubt, I was never among those who were misled to believe that Christ was "made sin," by a certain person whose name I won't mention so as not to give him any "air" time or continual free-advertising.)
As for what Jesus said “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?”, I don't at this time fully understand why he even said that using those words, and not words that those standing near him heard properly, because some thought they heard him say something He did not say and they went around saying -- "Why is that man calling out for Elijah?"
God did not forsake Him, obviously. There were a few other verses in that Psalm that Jesus could have just as easily quoted to prove that he was who David was speaking of that would have left no confusion in those standing near. Why did he pick that particular verse? I'm willing to wait for God to open my eyes to it, but I believe it might have something to do with the timing that he spoke those words (at about the ninth hour).
What does the time he said those words have to do with the price of tea in China? Quite a lot I'm sure. But as far as I know, Ray never touched on or spoke about that aspect of it, and so obviously that's going to remain an area of my own personal study and I won't bring it to the forum again, as it's going to lead to debate, I have no doubt.
Thanks again for your helpful reply and for the links.
God bless you, Kat.
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Hi Gina, no debate... just looking at these Scripture, I think it can be very helpful to discuss these things.
"Why is that man calling out for Elijah?"
Thinking about the resemblance between the word ‘Eli’ and the name Elijah, Jesus was certainly weak and may not been able to speak loudly to be well heard. Another thing is the Jews believed that Elijah would come first as a forerunner to the Messiah.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
The possible misunderstanding about what this verse meant could have been the Jews sarcastic way of saying that was what Christ was doing to prove His Messiahship. OR an intentional mistake by the Jews, who knew very well what he said, but were set on deriding Him to the end and to misrepresent who He really was.
Just more thoughts.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Well unfortunately at this point, we can only speculate.
And I unintentionally misquoted the text. Dang it - I hate it when I do that crap.
They didn't ask why He was calling out for Elijah, as I said before. The text says, some began saying that He was calling out for Elijah:
47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, “This man is calling for Elijah.”
48 Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49 But the rest of them said, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him.”
All we know for certain is: We don't know who said it. Which kinda sucks, ya know?
I suppose it could have been Romans or Greeks who weren't familiar with the language he was using, which could explain why they thought he said something he didn't. Don't know.
If Jesus was so short of breath that he couldn't speak loud enough to be heard audibly, then who actually did hear Him speak what He spoke? Someone heard Him correctly. So the notion that He couldn't be heard goes right out the window.
If it was the Jews that were saying that and they understood what He said but began spreading lies, then obviously they were false witnesses and play actors. Which means that they actually did know who Jesus was but. as per usual, they were pretending / acting as if they didn't know.
But then we would have to tackle this text: "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
I love discussing these things but I am human and I get so impatient and before I know it, I say something I shouldn't or start inadvertently teaching. And then as if that weren't bad enough, I forget that God gave me all the answers and truths I will ever need at this time, and then I become doubtful and p'd off, and I hate it when I do that crap too. Ray said to me once in a private email exchange: "Eve had everything she needed but a snake convinced her it wasn't enough." It's like God can never, ever do enough. It's never enough. I don't want to go there. I sense God saying, Don't go there, Gina. :)
I know the answer is there and makes perfect sense. All in good time.
I believe a good look into what it was about the ninth hour and the timing of those spoken words is in order here, because obviously Someone thought the hour He spoke those very words was important enough to bring to our attention.
God bless you, Kat. You're a patient, intelligent, generous and kindhearted woman and I appreciate your willingness to hear me out.
Gina
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Gal 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
"Faith" is both 'of' AND 'in'. But we shouldn't lose sight of just Who's "faith" it is, even as we share in it.
Here's what faith 'is':
Heb 11:1 Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.
I'll raise the question for thought. There's no need to answer--especially without thought. ;D Just what is the Faith of the Lord Jesus?
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Just what is the Faith of the Lord Jesus?
Now that is a good question!
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What is the faith OF Jesus Christ?
That the Father is reconciling the world to Himself through Jesus Christ, our mediator. That God will make many sons and daughters who are in the image of God, and be the seed of Abraham, and that He will not fail.
Isaiah 43
22 For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[But it doesn't end at shame...]
Romans 14:11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
Rev. 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne [the throne of God's temple not made with hands ;) ], saying,
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said,
"Behold, I am making all things new."
And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and
true."
And that, I believe, is the faith OF Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior Who sits on the throne of your hearts, in a nutshell. (He doesn't sit in a nutshell on our hearts, but you know what I mean.) :)
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Gina and Kat,
Excellent responses...thank you for your thoughts--and I agree with them completely!
But I didn't mean to suggest that Christ was doubting his Father... I was more thinking he was maybe doubting himself in that hour. His flesh, that is. In all other instances where we read of Christ's TRUST in his Father (e.g., all miracles he'd performed), we know he had said "Father, I know you always hear me, but I say these words for the benefit of those here, that they may know that I am He..." (paraphrasing). He never showed any doubt in his Father's ability.
But when it came down to his final act...His very death... He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure. And it was horrible. And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake. Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture: they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams). I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect! They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.
So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his? Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.
Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed). I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin. I'm not convinced either way. :-\
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Gal 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
"Faith" is both 'of' AND 'in'. But we shouldn't lose sight of just Who's "faith" it is, even as we share in it.
Here's what faith 'is':
Heb 11:1 Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.
I'll raise the question for thought. There's no need to answer--especially without thought. ;D Just what is the Faith of the Lord Jesus?
Here are a couple of things from Ray that I think will shed a lot of light on this question about faith.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.msg43145.html#msg43145 ----------
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? Can faith save him?
He ask the rhetorical question, “can faith save us?” Of course the answer is no. That’s interesting, you know faith is talked a lot about, as we are justified by faith, especially in Paul’s writing, Rom 3:30, Gal 3:8. We are justified by faith, but nowhere does it say in the scripture that we are saved by faith, nowhere.
We are saved by grace. It’s free, gratuitous gift from God, but it does something. It teaches - it chastens - it educates - it is divine influence upon the seat of our emotions - thinking - plans - purpose - goals - aspirations and everything else. It divinely influences that heart, you can’t help it, it does it.
This just smacks free will right in the teeth. According to true free will, God can’t make you do anything, you have to choose it on your own. How can you choose to do good unless God divinely influences your heart? You see, you can’t. But the second you say He does, you’ve taken away man’s free will. Now God is doing it. What an evil contradiction this thing of free will and free choices is.
So he says in James, can faith save us? Of course the answer is no. We’re justified by faith, but we are not saved by faith.
So when you come right down to it, when I asked you, what is grace and what is faith? You’re tossing around these words and basically you’re all right. Bob said love and it’s true, it’s love, grace is love. Faith is love. All these things ultimately are love, because God is love. Whatever all these other things are that go out from love, you bring them back in, and it all comes down to one thing, it’s LOVE.
So we have the word grace... we have the word faith. Each one has shades of different meanings and so on. But they both do the same thing, don’t they.
Christ says if you call Me Lord and Master, if you believe that, that’s faith... believing. If you believe that I am your Lord and Master, why don’t you do what I say? You see that? Faith is doing.
James says, faith without works or faith without doing is dead. Of course some thinks that that contradicts Paul, who said we’re justified by faith not of works. But that is too big of a subject to get into here. But, no they are not contradicting each other. One is emphasized one thing over another, more than the other. But they both involved the same thing.
They both quote that Abraham lived by faith. That’s what it was all about... faith. Paul says Abraham had that faith before he was even circumcised, before he obeyed that ritual to be circumcised and so on. James emphasized that, how did we know Abraham had faith? Because God told him to sacrifice his son and he brought the knife and was ready to do it. He proved his faith.
But they both do something, all these things, they do something. If we think of these words in theological terms all the time, you’ll never know what they mean. They are very simple, okay. Faith is you BELIEVE what God says, therefore you DO what God says.
Grace is a gift, you don’t have it. Now this is something you can’t conjure up, it’s a gift of God. It’s always the grace OF God, it comes from God, there is nothing you can do. You say, ‘well what about the faith we’ve got, that comes from us.’ No no no, it says in Eph 2: 8-10 “…faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELF, it is the gift of God;”
The faith it’s a gift, the grace it’s a gift, everything is a gift. It’s all a gift of God... it’s all faith, it’s all grace, they are all one thing. Grace causes you to live rightly. What does faith do? If you believe God, you do what He says. It is virtually the same thing.
v
Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
v. 12 Teaching us….”
What is doing the teaching? Grace is doing the teaching. It’s laboring - it’s teachings - it’s the divine influence of God on our heart, it‘s teaching us. So it’s...
v. 12 ...TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (eon - age);
So when it says God judges us by chastening us in 1 Cor. 11:32, the word chasten there is the Greek word 'paideuō.' Then when God says He graces us, by ‘teaching us’ (Titus 2:12), the word teaching is the same word paideuo and it means - to labor, to work, to chasten, to punish, to teach, to educate. There is like a dozen different words that this means, this ‘teaching.’ That’s what it does, it actually does something. In the same way what it does for us, it will eventually do for the world.
v
We learn that we get the heart... and unbelief here, 2 things. Oh that there were such a heart in them (Deu 5:29)... then in Hebrews 3:12 it says, I hope that it’s not found in you such "an evil heart of unbelief." Those 2 go hand in hand.
There is one other aspect to this thing of grace. We saw it a little bit in Hebrews 3:12 that says, "an evil heart of unbelief.” Now you all understand that in the Bible when it talks about believe, that’s the verb. Faith is the noun. Faith and believe are the same Greek word, they’re the same. What is faith? It means to believe. If you believe, you have what? Faith. They are both the same word, one is a noun, one is a verb, that’s the only difference.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2910.0 ---------------
Ray
I read your response today to a just published email to a person concerning faith. This was part of your answer....
"I am somewhat aware of all of these arguments against the faith. They do no hinder me. And why is that? Because I LIVE BY FAITH, that's why. But isn't faith based on PROVEN HISTORICAL FACTS? If we don't have PROOF, then we don't have FAITH, right? WRONG! Faith is belief and assurance that is NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE. The King James definition of faith in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews is worse than awful. Faith is an assurance that something is true even though there is no absolute tangible proof for that faith. So where does one find such a faith? He doesn't--IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD!
That is the magic of faith. Only those GIFTED WITH IT, HAVE IT--"For by grace are you saved [that being WHEN you are saved--yet future] through FAITH; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT OF GOD"
OK I can accept that. However, years ago I lived with a devout muslim who would say the same thing to me. He did not care about any contrary evidence to his faith. he believed because he said >>>it is FAITH. It is an "a priori" it is true and its resides in the center of his being. He once told me if an angel from heaven announced to him another faith, he would not accept it, if it contradicted the Koran and Islam.
How is your faith any different than his? A different book, of course, but the character of the faith is the same...you both believe it is a gift from God and accept it not based on evidence.
I wish that it could be shown that those who have the true faith, that their faith is of a different character than those with untrue faith, but apparently it cannot. The human experience of faith appears to be identical in all people. That faith may cause different actions depending on the tenets of the person or book it is built on, but the raw faith itself, is the same. If you disagree, how can you explain that those who have faith in belief systems contrary to yours, are by any objective measure, responding in kind to their inborn faith to follow those belief systems just as you?
I think correct faith is a gift from God, meaning the truth, but that faith itself, is found in all types of people. They believe with the same assurance as you do.
Doug
Dear Doug:
You are making something difficult and mysterious out of something that is quite simple (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear).
"Faith" is not a "Bible" word, or a "religious" word: it is a WORD, and it has a meaning. Here is a definition of faith from my American Heritge College Dictionary: "faith--1 CONFIDENT BELIEF in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. BELIEF that does not REST ON LOGICAL PROOF OR MATERIAL EVIDENCE....." etc.
Those are very good definitions of faith, but as one can clearly and instantly see these definitions go totally contrary to the way that the King James defines faith in Heb. 11:2, "Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Hogwash. Faith is the diametric opposite of "evidence and substance." When one possesses absolute "substance and evidence" regarding any matter, the last thing on earth such a person needs is "faith!"
Just days ago I heard Rod Parsley quote that definition of faith from the King James Bible. No wonder they have not a clue as to anything SPIRITUAL.
Now then, faith is a word that has a definite meaning. Muslims have "faith" in Allah, and Christians have "faith" in the "God of Abraham," and some few have "faith" in the Scriptures that tell us how we are to have faith in God. They are all "faiths" as you suggest, so are they not all the same? No, of course not. The qauality or kind of faith one has is graded by what that particular faith accomplishes. Do you rely on the God you have faith in, do you live a godly life because of it, do you love God and all humanity, are you overcoming the sins that God says He hates, etc., etc.?
Maybe a "tangible" example will help:
Money--you have money and I have money. It all "looks" like the same money. But one can buy food for his family with his money and another can buy booze with his money and let his family go without. Is there a difference? You bet.
Guns--you have gun and I have a gun (both made by the same manufacturer). So our guns are the same, correct? There is no difference in your gun and my gun, correct? Not at this point, but what do the two guns produce? One man shoots game to feed his family with his gun, while the other SHOOTS HIS FAMILY. Is there a difference? You bet.
James has great and simple wisdom in this matter: "Even so faith, if it has not works, IS DEAD...Yea a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me YOU faith [this is one kind] without works, and I will show you MY faith [this is a second kind] BY MY WORKS" (James 2:17-18).
Two faiths, two entirely different manifestations of that faith.
It's a huge subject and deserves a whole paper on it.
God be with you,
Ray
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Gina and Kat,
Excellent responses...thank you for your thoughts--and I agree with them completely!
But I didn't mean to suggest that Christ was doubting his Father... I was more thinking he was maybe doubting himself in that hour. His flesh, that is. In all other instances where we read of Christ's TRUST in his Father (e.g., all miracles he'd performed), we know he had said "Father, I know you always hear me, but I say these words for the benefit of those here, that they may know that I am He..." (paraphrasing). He never showed any doubt in his Father's ability.
But when it came down to his final act...His very death... He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure. And it was horrible. And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake. Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture: they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams). I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect! They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.
So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his? Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.
Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed). I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin. I'm not convinced either way. :-\
I understand how you feel, Michael. And that is something that God will pull you through and settle you on in His own good time. How in the world did Christ do that and not doubt? Well he didn't doubt as the songwriter suggests. He was tempted in all points as we were -- all points, yet without sinning.
What you see there happening in the garden is not Jesus doubting at all but He was struggling to not give in to his desire to be delivered from what He knew He had to go through -- the salvation of the world was depending on His being able to go through it, and so of course he was struggling, but doubting? No. He didn't doubt He could go through it. When it got to the final hour, He didn't want to go through it. And who could blame Him? He was struggling against the temptation to back out of what He had to go through. That's not doubt.
Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray so that they wouldn't fall into temptation.
Hebrews 12
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
But even though doubt is sin, Jesus came to save us from all that too. He didn't rebuke Thomas when Thomas doubted, he said, come on over and put your hands in my side. He understands these things. He didn't rebuke the man who said, Yes, Lord, I believe but help my unbelief (doubt). See?
That is a hard thing to meditate on, that Christ actually was afraid -- I mean, he goes around telling his disciples "fear not!" and there He is struggling to not give into fear. Well, so what? Who can blame him for that? Maybe if some never had a leather belt rip their back apart so bad that they couldn't hardly walk or lay down or sit down for a week and their clothes stuck to the bloodied wounds, maybe they couldn't be sympathetic to or understand his desire to let that cup pass. And His Father wouldn't let Him grow faint or weary. And the same faith that got Jesus through what he endured is the same faith that's going to get us all through our trials and suffering.
I mean, listen, Sarah, Abraham's wife, she doubted that God would give them a child. But her doubt was no match for the promise of God. The promise wasn't given to her. God didn't make a deal with Sarah. He made a deal with Abraham, who believed God. God's faithful even when we are not. And I think that's what we're witnessing there in the garden. Not doubt, but God's faithfulness to us sinners. I don't know how else to say it.
I hope that helps a little. Sorry for the longwinded reply. And welcome to the forum! :)
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He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure. And it was horrible. And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake. Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture: they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams). I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect! They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.
So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his? Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.
Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed). I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin. I'm not convinced either way. :-\
Hi lurquer, yes the disciples were grieved by what Christ had been telling them, but they really had no idea what was about to happen, not really. They were confused and they saw the anxiety and distress He was in and it effected them, so they were upset too. Now you ask;
"So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak". But WHO was he talking about? Himself or the disciples? Whose flesh was most weak at that moment? Theirs or his?"
Of course He was speaking of the disciples, He knew what was about to happen, but they just could not comprehend what was happening that very night or they would never have been able to sleep.
Yes He was greatly distressed about what was about to happen... that should prove that He was very much human (not just God that looked like a man) and would feel and suffer every bit of the pain that was coming. BUT He was NOT questioning/doubting whether He could/would go through it, He was maybe seeking His Father to see if this was the only way, He did end His pray with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will," which was His
When He said in verse 41 "Watch and pray, lest YOU enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak," He was speaking of the disciples weak flesh, their carnality, certainly not Himself.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
v. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Our Savior struggle was not if He would be able to complete His mission, but He was seeking His Father for help in the terrible agony He was feeling, and no doubt He received that help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Gina,
Thanks for helping me understand that better. You and Kat are very good at clarifying things. I certainly find no fault in what either of you said. I especially appreciated what you said about fear, rather than doubt.. I much better comprehend that.
I think we're all in agreement about what happened in the garden. I still want to say though, that I don't think we're using the word doubt the same way.. Doubt can mean "unbelief" (as in unbelief in the promises of God).. I don't think Christ ever experienced that as that would be sin. But it can also mean "uncertainty" or lack of understanding. Perhaps an incomplete knowledge of something (as in, "I doubt this bridge can hold us"). Now if God SAID it would hold, and I doubted, he'd probably let me sink like Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water--just to make the point ;)
But, maybe I still wonder if he had any "uncertainty" while he was in the flesh.. How much did he really "know"? I mean if he was praying to the Father to maybe "see if this was the only way", like Kat said (and I think she's right about that), doesn't it mean he was "unsure"? Did he ever have that sort of doubt?
And now that we've had this discussion, I probably won't appreciate Sympathy for the Devil as much any more. :(
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Yeah, I don't know what to say. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. I would like to be able to answer your question, but maybe this is one of those things that needs to be worked out over time because it is a heavy, heavy topic. (I can't hardly bear the thought of what he went through, it's so sad! And saying it's sad just doesn't even come close to doing it justice.)
But maybe this will help -- maybe it won't. But I thought of how Jesus said he'd be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. So, as far as I can tell from what I know and read, He had no doubt what he was in for, and that he was coming out of the heart of the earth, because after all, Jonah came up out of that whale. He knew that Jonah came up out of that whale because after all, He was the one who caused that entire thing with Jonah to come about from the start to finish.
Remember when He said "I am the resurrection and the life"? So that is a clear indication that He knew He wasn't going to be left in the tomb or that God would fail to raise him up from the dead. I can't think off the top of my head of more scriptures where Jesus spoke of events that would take place after His resurrection at the moment, forgive me.
I don't believe that doubt is as great a sin as some other sins, of course not. We all doubt. But Jesus obviously had been around the Romans quite a bit during his earthly ministry and knew all about crucifixions, so I'm sure he had no doubt in His mind or heart about just what he was about to suffer. I don't think He was the first to be crucified by the Romans, and his crucifixion was prophesied long before it ever occurred -- and who inspired the psalmist to prophecy Jesus' crucifixion? Jesus - the Logos, the Word. Sorry, I just don't understand your dilemma about him having doubts.
Now, you and I would be having major doubts! But we're not talking about us. We're talking about Christ. He was terrified to the core. I'll say it again, I can't hardly bring myself to think about what ... see just thinking about what they did to Him (and even though I know it was all planned by God himself) makes me want to flip and go crazy on those people and that's not right -- this is a very hard topic to be thinking about. I really don't like to think about it. It tears my insides apart.
Here's an email that Ray did. It may or may not answer your questions, but I'm just putting it out there so that you can see that Jesus was in sheer terror.
God bless you, Michael. I am praying that God helps you in your search for the truth.
Gina
Email response from Ray:
I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah." Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone.
"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!
And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this:
"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).
The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11616.msg100492.html#msg100492
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Hi Gina,
Thanks for helping me understand that better. You and Kat are very good at clarifying things. I certainly find no fault in what either of you said. I especially appreciated what you said about fear, rather than doubt.. I much better comprehend that.
I think we're all in agreement about what happened in the garden. I still want to say though, that I don't think we're using the word doubt the same way.. Doubt can mean "unbelief" (as in unbelief in the promises of God).. I don't think Christ ever experienced that as that would be sin. But it can also mean "uncertainty" or lack of understanding. Perhaps an incomplete knowledge of something (as in, "I doubt this bridge can hold us"). Now if God SAID it would hold, and I doubted, he'd probably let me sink like Peter when he walked out to Jesus on the water--just to make the point ;)
But, maybe I still wonder if he had any "uncertainty" while he was in the flesh.. How much did he really "know"? I mean if he was praying to the Father to maybe "see if this was the only way", like Kat said (and I think she's right about that), doesn't it mean he was "unsure"? Did he ever have that sort of doubt?
And now that we've had this discussion, I probably won't appreciate Sympathy for the Devil as much any more. :(
Hi Lurquer,
Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts.
Strong's
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Jesus Christ had the spirit of God without measure.
John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
Christ spoke many things for the benefit of those around him and who would come after. For the benefit of those who would believe on Him. As Kat said earlier, the most likely reason for why Christ said what He did at the cross was not due to His lack of faith, or doubt, or uncertainty in the flesh, but for OUR ADMONISHMENT. To bear witness to the Jews that He was who He was and for us who would come afterwards.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou [The Father] hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
In Christ,
Alex
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One more thought. I don't see where Jesus said "If there's some other way." He said:
Luke
42 ... "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him
Matthew 26
39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
I could be totally wrong but it sounds to me like what Jesus was praying for to let the cup of fear and physical pain pass from him. Unfortunately, it couldn't pass because He had to suffer the penalty of our sins.
He had to FEEL everything, the fear and the agonizing and all the jeering and the cruelty that we had coming to us. He had to feel it all. You think maybe he was asking that he simply be kept safe from feeling it in his mind and his body? I mean, it's so pitiful to think about. I'd be praying the same thing - we all would.
And of course it was possible for God to let that pass from him so that he could go through it without actually experiencing the pain of it. Nothing's too hard for God, He even said so.
But that would have diminished the effects of it in the eyes of mankind. We would have all been like, Wow, that must have been really hard for him to do -- zzzzzzz.
But if he did that, then he couldn't really say that He actually suffered the penalty for our sins, so we have a Truthful Savior to the core. He could have gone through all that and pretended like it hurt like hell, but then he'd be a liar, and Jesus was no liar. (I mean, that's how truthful he was -- like Alex said -- he said many things for the benefit of those he is saving.) Love is long-suffering.
And the whole thing about Him suffering the penalty for our sin is the actual suffering and mental and emotional anguish and wishing he didn't have to experience the pain of it - just like we would be wishing. He had to feel everything we would be feeling -- including the desire to let the suffering not effect him physically or psychologically, or emotionally. Does that make sense? Or did I just confuse you more? I hope not.
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I will say this statement from Christ, "let this cup pass from Me" is a bit perplexing, though we really don't know exactly what He meant by it, we know He always knew He was to suffer and be our sacrifice.
Luke 9:22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."
But I guess knowing about something that is to come and then actually having to go through with it... well He certainly knew what He was about to have to endure. Crucifixion was well established by that time...
The first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon. (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)
Jesus most likely had seen people crucified as this was done as a public show, but even if He had not actually witnessed a crucifixion, well He was our God from heaven and would have certainly known everything about this barbaric means of death.
Crucifixion was often performed to terrorize and dissuade its witnesses from perpetrating particularly heinous crimes. Victims were left on display after death as warnings to others who might attempt dissent. Crucifixion was usually intended to provide a death that was particularly slow, painful (hence the term excruciating, literally "out of crucifying"), gruesome, humiliating, and public (Wikipedia, Crucifixion)
When we think of who Jesus was, leading a totally righteous life and certainly taking perfect care of His body as well and there is no account of anybody ever laying hands on Him or abusing Him before His arrest. He just would not have been used to being taken hold of, much less horribly abused.
He was God... though He came as a servant, He was very much above/pure/holy/superior to all these people and yet He was now about to surrender into the hands of some of the most vile and wicked people that He knew were going to torture Him mercilessly.
I really think He was having a kind of panic attack, had become unnerved, which should absolutely show He was a fully physically man (there are some that believe He could not be God and fully man too). But He turned to the only source He could, His Father, who sent Him an angel to give Him the strength needed. He never relented, even when He was struggling in the garden, that He would do the Father's will, as we see in His prayer and most importantly is He DID it!
When you think about it, Jesus is was and always will be God. Before His life in the flesh He had already been living for billions of years, at least, what He willingly volunteered to do is so mindbogglingly incredible...
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
v. 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Lurquer,
Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts...
In Christ,
Alex
I hear you, Alex. He was meant to die, and he knew it all along...But what then was Christ agonizing about in the Garden?
Aye, there's the rub.
I'm not so sure Jesus was "fearful" of the pain/suffering of the death he was to "glorify God with" (qua John 21:19). Many mere humans (before and since) have went to their death fearlessly. And they knew precisely what sort of death they were in for because they'd dealt it themselves. But the Lord is above all of them. Were they all "stronger' than him?
Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...
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Okay. I'm sure that God will reveal it to us in His own time.
Luke 12:2
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Hi Lurquer,
Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts...
In Christ,
Alex
I hear you, Alex. He was meant to die, and he knew it all along...But what then was Christ agonizing about in the Garden?
Aye, there's the rub.
I'm not so sure Jesus was "fearful" of the pain/suffering of the death he was to "glorify God with" (qua John 21:19). Many mere humans (before and since) have went to their death fearlessly. And they knew precisely what sort of death they were in for because they'd dealt it themselves. But the Lord is above all of them. Were they all "stronger' than him?
Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...
Hi Lurquer,
Have you considered the possibility He was agonizing over the sheer agony He was about to experience? If you knew when you were going to die and how you were going to die, and the way was to be one of the most drawn out excruciating tortures known to man at the time, don't you think you too would be sweating blood?
The discovery channel once did a show on whether it was possible for the account in the garden to be true as it is recounted, in that did Jesus actually sweat blood? They had several physicians talking about crucifixion and the human body. They explained that under extreme duress, it was possible for an individual to sweat blood, and that the account of the garden may not be something that was exaggerated but actually could have happened as is recounted.
I'm not sure what to make of this "Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man..." but when I see things like this, all kinds of red flags go up.
In Christ,
Alex
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That Jesus actually sweat blood was definitely not an exaggeration -- there's such as thing as straining so hard that the capillaries in your face burst. There's a medical term for it -- hematosis or something. That's how hard he was straining to resist the temptation to call a legion angels to come save Him and all his disciples! I would have been like, Um, Now Father! Send them right now!
I don't mean to diminish anyone's death. But I'm sure some veterans would be very relieved to have the option of phoning the commander in chief and asking for 12,000 soldiers to come rescue them in a flash. Or have access to a heavy dose of morphine so that they wouldn't feel any pain.
Mr. President? Yeah, It's Michael. Listen, they're about to rip my flesh from my bones. Could you save me? There is not the man who lived would have insisted on going through that if he had the option of not going through it. And that was only part of what Jesus went through.
Jesus had so much power in him that when the soldiers came to arrest him, all he said was: I AM. And they all fell backwards on their behinds. That's how much power he had. You think maybe he was tempted to use that power? How much strength and power above and beyond that do you think Jesus had to have in order to resist the urge to use it?
Jesus could have been saved from it. The Physician could have just as easily healed himself. It would have been so easy. Can't you just hear Satan tempting him. "Oh come on, you really don't want to do this.... Do you? For these people? Are you serious?"
But He knew Satan was lying to him. And so he did something no man has ever done in the history of mankind and never will again. He fulfilled scripture and prophecy to the T. I'd say that entrusting His Father with His entire life and death in the face of all that agony and torment and embarrassment and shame glorified His Father. It's something no one besides Jesus ever did in the history of mankind. And never will again.
I would have been straining so hard, I would have sweat blood too, if I had the option of calling all that off.
I would have said forget that! I'm going home! I would have looked at them all and said, There is no way you'll EVER be any good! You can go to hell! Ya know? But with all that power, he goes: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
I'd say that would glorify His Father. But that's me.
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Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...
Hi lurquer,
I'm wondering if you are not thinking along the lines of what the Christian world believes... they think that Christ was to actually become 'sin' for us and that He was struggling with the thought of God turning away from Him.
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is a wrong translation, Christ became a "sin offering," big difference. Ray spoke on this heresy to a great degree, here are the Bible studies.
Bible study audio Oct/Nov 2006
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
So people believe that He literally became sin and that the Father could not look upon Him as such (Habakkuk 1:13) and so turned His back on Jesus when He needed Him the most. And to top it off the church believe that the Father then poured His wrath on Christ. This is all a gross mis-translation of what happened.
So I'm just trying to figure out your hesitance to believe. That when Christ as a human man was greatly troubled by what He was about to go through. He was God and what He was about to endure was the absolute depths of human degradation possible. Sure other people have went to their death fearlessly... but they were not the God of the universe, who had been in existence for billions of years and was now about to suffer and die... I think for good reason that this was the greatest act of sacrifice possible.
Maybe I've gotten it all wrong about what you may be thinking, but this could help somebody else I suppose, so I thought it was worth mentioning.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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If the mods consider what I am about to say teaching or preaching, please remove it by all means. I will not object.
Well, what's ridiculous about the whole notion that God was dishing out His wrath on Jesus (the spotless and faultless and blameless Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world) is this:
The Father isn't wrathful with the express image of Himself.
"I always do what pleases My Father." "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
How could the Father be wrathful towards the express image of Himself, in Whom He was well pleased? It would be akin to the Father showing wrath towards Himself. The Father isn't wrathful towards Himself.
Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Jesus was never at odds with His Father, and His Father wasn't at odds with the express image of Himself.
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If the mods consider what I am about to say teaching or preaching, please remove it by all means. I will not object.
Well, what's ridiculous about the whole notion that God was dishing out His wrath on Jesus (the spotless and faultless and blameless Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world) is this:
The Father isn't wrathful with the express image of Himself.
"I always do what pleases My Father." "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
How could the Father be wrathful towards the express image of Himself, in Whom He was well pleased? It would be akin to the Father showing wrath towards Himself. The Father isn't wrathful towards Himself.
Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Jesus was never at odds with His Father, and His Father wasn't at odds with the express image of Himself.
You did notice Kat said: "the church believe that the Father then poured His wrath on Christ." ?
But I've never heard that "the church" teaches that. Just a few screwballs.
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No, I didn't really read the whole thing she said. But I honestly cannot recall any church or sermon I ever heard where it was taught that the Father poured out his wrath on His perfect son. It'll screw you up so bad you won't know which end is up.
It'd be like hiring a messenger to deliver a package to someone under the most extreme conditions without a hitch, and without so much as hurting a flea - per your strict orders. And they do it exactly as planned. And as a thank you to the messenger, you fly into a rage and mock him, spit on him, beat him to a bloody pulp, nail him to a cross and make him gasp for air for 12 hours, before shoving a spear through his heart and assigning him a grave with the wicked. And what's surprising is, some people continue to AGREE with that. (Even the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.)
We are very, very, very fortunate to have had Ray to straighten out that diabolical mess and shield us from that heresy.
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Well I just consider if the main commentaries teach it, then it's a teaching of the 'church.'
Albert Barnes' commentary--
these sufferings were sent upon him as the wrath of God manifested against sin that God inflicted them directly upon him by his own hand, to show his abhorrence of the sins of people for which he was about to die.
Matthew Henry's commentary--
there it pleased the Lord to bruise him, and crush him, that fresh oil might flow to all believers from him, that we might partake of the root and fatness of that good Olive. There he trod the wine-press of his Father's wrath, and trod it alone.
John Gill's commentary--
and fell on his face, and prayed; partly to show his great reverence of God, the sword of whose justice was awaked against him, the terrors of whose law were set in array before him, and whose wrath was pouring down upon him; and partly to signify how much his soul was depressed, how low he was brought, and in what distress and anguish of spirit he was, that he was not able to lift up his head, and look up.
I really don't know what they teach inside the church these days, but the internet has plenty of sites that say it was God's wrath on Jesus, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, but here is one that show what they teach.
In the New Testament, the act of propitiation always refers to the work of God and not the sacrifices or gifts offered by man. The reason for this is that man is totally incapable of satisfying God’s justice except by spending eternity in hell. There is no service, sacrifice or gift that man can offer that will appease the holy wrath of God or satisfy His perfect justice. The only satisfaction, or propitiation, that could be acceptable to God and that could reconcile man to Him, had to be made by God. For this reason God the Son, Jesus Christ, came into the world in human flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin and make atonement or “propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17).
Again I do not believe this teaching, I just got it off the internet and I am not trying to stir up things by bringing it up. The church also believe in the trinity and that God the Father is a separate 'person' from the Son, so they would not think He was pouring His wrath out on Himself...
But anyway my point was to Lurquer, to see if this was maybe what he had heard/read and it was in some way what was causing him trouble with this passage. because it's really hard to totally get all the false teaching out of our minds. Sorry for the confusion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I can totally see why you would say that church teaches it. You make a very good point. The church certainly teaches plenty of baloney.
I've also read on the internet where Jesus is the "sin-offering." And I recently heard one mainstream pastor in Birmingham, Alabama talk about the renewing ... I N G ... of our minds, to bring out the fact that we aren't born with the mind of Christ but that it is a process. He was totally in to tithing, but ya know -- slowly but surely mainstreamers will come around.
Certainly, whatever is out of God (man), although subject to vanity initially, has to eventually grow to become whole and of sound mind because ... it comes from God. Hello? It has to eventually, for the simple fact that we originate from God and God doesn't make mistakes. It's a no-brainer.
So, when Jesus was doing all that he did for humanity, he had faith that it wouldn't fail to produce good results because he knew where He came from and where He was going, even though the whole of mankind at that point didn't know. He knew exactly where he came from and how everything would turn out eventually. And that's what got him through all that agony and terror -- the prize set before him.
It's just fascinating to note that the first Adam was just a man who couldn't stand his own station in life and wanted to be immortal and God. And he was driven out of the garden.
And Jesus, the last Adam, actually was God but volunteered to lower Himself to the point where he was considered by man to be lower than a common criminal. And ends up helping the first Adam to eventually become like He truly is. Which is what the first Adam wanted all along but not in the right way.
Anyway, the dichotomy there just totally blows me away. Our God is so fascinating.
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Hi lurquer,
I'm wondering if you are not thinking along the lines of what the Christian world believes... they think that Christ was to actually become 'sin' for us and that He was struggling with the thought of God turning away from Him.
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is a wrong translation, Christ became a "sin offering," big difference. Ray spoke on this heresy to a great degree, here are the Bible studies.
Bible study audio Oct/Nov 2006
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
So people believe that He literally became sin and that the Father could not look upon Him as such (Habakkuk 1:13) and so turned His back on Jesus when He needed Him the most. And to top it off the church believe that the Father then poured His wrath on Christ. This is all a gross mis-translation of what happened.
So I'm just trying to figure out your hesitance to believe. That when Christ as a human man was greatly troubled by what He was about to go through. He was God and what He was about to endure was the absolute depths of human degradation possible. Sure other people have went to their death fearlessly... but they were not the God of the universe, who had been in existence for billions of years and was now about to suffer and die... I think for good reason that this was the greatest act of sacrifice possible.
Maybe I've gotten it all wrong about what you may be thinking, but this could help somebody else I suppose, so I thought it was worth mentioning.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kat, no worries. I've listened to/read all of Ray's studies. Can't say I disagree with any of them on content... I utterly reject the churchianity notion that Christ was, or became sin. It is indeed a despicable heresy.
But I don't know what you mean by my "hesitance to believe" (?) Certainly I believe that Jesus was a man and was in extreme agony that night. The question though, is why? Fear of death itself? The physical suffering? I don't think so. Maybe--I don't know. But it just doesn't sit right with me. That explanation just seems like a simple, human understanding (of course any of us would have opted out of that given the chance!) However, there are a plethora of historical examples of other christian martyrs who chose not to opt out of the most horrendous deaths rather than deny Christ. Indeed, there are accounts of many going to their deaths singing praises and hymns, appearing to be in no pain at all, even though they were being burned alive... Even the thief hanging next to him was still able to yuk it up and mock Jesus while in the same agonizing predicament...
In any case, none of us knows, nor likely ever will in this age. It is just one of those things that is yet unrevealed. We're only speculating. Like Gina said, these are deep things. Things I wonder about...
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This matter is not that hard to understand.
There is a Scripture that tells us all things are possible with God.
Jesus had a sound mind. No one with a sound mind would want to go through His suffering.
Therefore He asked the One Who could make a difference if this cup could pass. God's answer was No. This way was the way God wanted it done. God had a good reason to do it the way He did, but that is another topic.
When the time came, Jesus stood tall. He did not whine or complain or bemoan His fate.
When He said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"; Jesus was quoting the 22nd Psalm, the first part of which discusses the sufferings of the Messiah, and the 2nd part discusses His ultimate triumph. This leads into the 23rd Psalm which states, "The LORD is my shepherd..." These were Jesus' thoughts right before the soldier stabbed Him to death.
I am as proud as punch over the way Jesus handled Himself, when He was faced with an ultimate physical trial. It is one reason I call Him Lord of Lords and King of Kings. I will gladly follow Him anywhere.
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Okay John, I hear what your saying. But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess. Maybe I'm just a tad thick. ;)
I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup. And he did drink it to the dregs. But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27). But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.
I don't want to be misunderstood, though. His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!". Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter. But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.
Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers. He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off. The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead. (john 26:32)
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Hey, Michael :)
I'm glad that we're kinda on the same page. Thank you for acknowledging the points we were making. I was praying to God it wasn't in vain and it would help some. It's gonna take time. We certainly don't understand it all -- how could we? We see through a glass darkly too.
You are right, and I agree and thanks for being honest about how you feel. It is definitely NOT a simple thing for the human mind to understand.
But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it,
How about the times the pharisees tried to have him killed/thrown off cliffs during his ministry, but Jesus escaped through their hands, because it was not yet His time. He was acquainted with grief before the garden.
But imagine how effective he would have been during His earthly ministry if that garden anguish was with him the entire time? Ya know? God couldn't let that be at the forefront of his mind during His ministry where He was healing people. I mean think about the fact that as a soldier, soldiers prepare for battle before the war and once they're on the battlefield if they were to be terrified (as I'm sure I would be) to the point of death on the battlefield the whole time, they wouldn't be able to do much in the way of protecting their country. If their hearts were "melting" on the battlefield before they had approached their "last enemy" [i.e. death] what would their reaction have been when they finally did meet death face to face? And not just any death on the field, where you're shot through the head point blank and didn't see the bullet coming. Jesus saw it all coming long before it actually took place. He knew but he also had work to do before that. The images of what was about to happen he was well aware of. He talked about being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth to his disciples -- he knew what it was going to be like, but the disciples had no earthly idea! I'm sure he thought about it a lot! After all, Jesus came to earth only to... DIE as a sin-offering for the sins of mankind. He knew that's where he was going, but that thought could not be at the forefront of his mind or His heart would have melted long before then. And we don't know! He could have prayed many, many times in secret. We don't know. He was always going up to the mountains to get away from the crowds.
It'd be like knowing you have a gene that will eventually cause you to develop prostate cancer or something. And you're fine with it (sorta) emotionally and psychologically you can function quite well, but when the doctor comes in and says... You better get your things in order, it's only going to be a few days.... My knees would buckle!
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Okay John, I hear what your saying. But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess. Maybe I'm just a tad thick. ;)
I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup. And he did drink it to the dregs. But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27). But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.
I don't want to be misunderstood, though. His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!". Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter. But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.
Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers. He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off. The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead. (john 26:32)
Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
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Okay John, I hear what your saying. But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess. Maybe I'm just a tad thick. ;)
I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup. And he did drink it to the dregs. But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27). But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.
I don't want to be misunderstood, though. His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!". Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter. But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.
Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers. He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off. The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead. (john 26:32)
Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
John, I am very glad you stepped into this discussion. I was starting to think we were going in circles here with Lurquor.
God bless you brother, I (And im sure many others) benefit greatly from your input. Please continue to share your wisdom in these matters that may not always be completely black and white though perhaps this one should have been settled long ago as I had found it to be. I only admonish you to share more often because you always have thoughtful responses that are edifying for the body.
Sincerely and with love,
Alex
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Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
John it is quite obvious as you say that all of Jesus' works were done by the Father, but that was true before He was a man and is now as well... His power is always from the Father, so it a matter of how you look at it I suppose.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Jesus did say to His disciples that He could pray to the Father and He would provide Him all the help He needed... so I think He actually could have come down from the cross if He desired to.
Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
v. 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
To say that He had no Godly powers... well how was He God then? He most certainly was God and had great power as is witnessed in many Scripture.
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
He did not need to pray to the Father for this to happen, He did it, and yes by the power/Holy Spirit from the Father in Him. There is also when the woman was healed "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him."
Mark 5:25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
v. 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.
v. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
v. 28 For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well."
v. 29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction.
v. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My clothes?"
Another thing is He was literally walking on the water and called Peter to walk on it too.
Mat 14:26 When they saw him walking on the water, they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear.
v. 29 "Come!" answered Jesus. So Peter got out of the boat and started walking on the water to Jesus.
Also Jesus could read the thoughts in peoples minds.
Mark 2:6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Mat 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
v. 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
v. 48 and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
He is one with the Father with the power of God, this was always the case, during His His time on earth as He said there and of course before and after as well.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
John it is quite obvious as you say that all of Jesus' works were done by the Father, but that was true before He was a man and is now as well... His power is always from the Father, so it a matter of how you look at it I suppose.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Jesus did say to His disciples that He could pray to the Father and He would provide Him all the help He needed... so I think He actually could have come down from the cross if He desired to.
Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
v. 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
To say that He had no Godly powers... well how was He God then? He most certainly was God and had great power as is witnessed in many Scripture.
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
He did not need to pray to the Father for this to happen, He did it, and yes by the power/Holy Spirit from the Father in Him. There is also when the woman was healed "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him."
Mark 5:25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
v. 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.
v. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
v. 28 For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well."
v. 29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction.
v. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My clothes?"
Another thing is He was literally walking on the water and called Peter to walk on it too.
Mat 14:26 When they saw him walking on the water, they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear.
v. 29 "Come!" answered Jesus. So Peter got out of the boat and started walking on the water to Jesus.
Also Jesus could read the thoughts in peoples minds.
Mark 2:6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Mat 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
v. 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
v. 48 and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
He is one with the Father with the power of God, this was always the case, during His His time on earth as He said there and of course before and after as well.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
Good post too. I think as you stated in the first line, it is a matter of perspective. Christ did say;
John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
It appears to me that the things He did do were through the spirit of His Father that His Father gave Him which He now gives to us.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 15:2 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Some of the passages you quoted to say "perceived in His spirit..."
Mark 2:8 "But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? "
As you opened your post with Kat, so will I end mine with:
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Seems like you are both saying the same thing, merely one is from the relative perspective while the other from the absolute.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Kat,
I believe your understanding is not quite complete on this matter.
Busy day at work. Don't have much time or my study materials with me.
But I know you know the Scripture where Jesus stated that of Himself He could do nothing. And that it was the Father in Him that did all the works.
I believe Jesus.
Jesus was a human on the earth about 33 years. Before that He was the Almighty God. After His Resurrection He had all power in heaven and earth. But for those 33 years He had emptied Himself of all His powers. (See the Scripture in Philippians chapter 2)
Everything He did while in human form, all the miracles, were by God the Father. Read His prayer to the Father in John when He raised Lazarus back to life. The Father did that.
Ray agreed with my above statements. He wrote somewhere that it was the Father Who did all the works.
It is the lack of understanding of some of how Jesus was for those 33 years that makes some think there are two Gods: 1) a Father God and 2) a Jesus God.
The Scriptures teach there is only One God. In Col 1:15 we learn the invisible God is the Father and Jesus is the visible image of this One God. One God. The Father and Jesus are two sides of One God. But as Paul wrote, "not many know this."
I'm sure you moderators do not want to get that discussion going again, so I'll shut up. ;D ;D ;D But it is the Truth, it cannot be contained; I believe Jesus will teach the Elect the details in the next age. But a few now know the Truth.
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Is it possible you misunderstood Ray and the words of Jesus Christ?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without HIM was NOT any thing made that was made.
4 In HIM was life, and the life was the light of men.
14 The Word became flesh and made HIS dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory OF THE ONE AND ONLY SON, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, AND I Myself am working."
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son ALSO does in like manner
Phil 2:6 Although he was in the form of God and EQUAL WITH GOD [how much clearer can it be said] , he did not take advantage of this equality
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Is it possible you misunderstood Ray and the words of Jesus Christ?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without HIM was NOT any thing made that was made.
4 In HIM was life, and the life was the light of men.
14 The Word became flesh and made HIS dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory OF THE ONE AND ONLY SON, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, AND I Myself am working."
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son ALSO does in like manner
Phil 2:6 Although he was in the form of God and EQUAL WITH GOD [how much clearer can it be said] , he did not take advantage of this equality
No.
But if you quote Scripture, maybe you should read on: Philippians 2:7-8.
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus was equal with God. He emptied Himself. Of what? Of being God. He became a man in order to die. As Ray brought out, a God cannot die or be killed. But a man can die.
This really is not hard to understand. As a man, everything Jesus did, He did not do Himself. As Jesus said, Of His own self, He could do nothing.
Water to wine; feeding 10 thousand people; healing people of their sicknesses; raising Lazarus from the dead;---all these things were not done by any inherent power in Jesus because He was a human man. It was the power of the Father that did all the works. Easy peasy. God 101.
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Furthermore:
Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Was it the Father who took away the sin of the world, or is it the Son of the Father?
Behold, the Lamb of God [Jesus Christ] who takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus Christ, not the Father, was nailed to the cross.
It wasn't the Father who died on that cross and Who volunteered to be spit on and suffer terrorizing agony at the hands of wicked sinners.
It wasn't the Father who carried the cross.
It wasn't the Father who did that, it was Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ, BY THE POWER OF the Holy Spirit which came from His Father, was actually the one who was doing all of what His Father commissioned Him to do.
Far be it from me to look Jesus Christ in the eyes and declare to his face that He didn't actually DO anything during His ministry or that He didn't voluntarily subject himself to die a horrible death on the cross, or is not my Redeemer, or that he didn't spill His OWN precious blood for my sins.
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I'm out of this thread, John. So help me God!
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I'm out of this thread, John. So help me God!
Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? James 3:11
Speaking of Paul's teachings...in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16
It was Jesus Who said that of Himself, He could do nothing. Jesus' words, not mine.
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Why would Father glorify the Son if the Son hadn't done anything deserving of the glory.
I'm not bitter, I am following the promptings of the Holy Spirit which is telling me to leave this thread, and then you TEMPT me by calling me "bitter" and "unstable"? Hey, Jesus said, Answer a fool accordingly, and answer NOT a fool accordingly. That's what I'm doing, John. That's what I'm doing. By the power invested in me by the Holy Spirit, of course. But the fact remains, I'm actually the one doing it. And God will reward me according to the works that I have done whether they be good or evil.
He will hold me accountable for my words, just as he will you according to the things you have spoken.
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Why would Father glorify the Son if the Son hadn't done anything deserving of the glory.
I'm not bitter, I am following the promptings of the Holy Spirit which is telling me to leave this thread, and then you TEMPT me by calling me "bitter" and "unstable"? Hey, Jesus said, Answer a fool accordingly, and answer NOT a fool accordingly. That's what I'm doing, John. That's what I'm doing. By the power invested in me by the Holy Spirit, of course. But the fact remains, I'm actually the one doing it. And God will reward me according to the works that I have done whether they be good or evil.
He will hold me accountable for my words, just as he will you according to the things you have spoken.
I reacted to your use of God's name in a vain manner, as an oath.
May it be as you said. Let God judge.
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Jesus was God!
Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."
That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.
His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.
The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus was God!
Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."
That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.
His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.
The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat, in regards to the works,
I think its important to note that (From what i'm observing in scripture) Christ never refereed to His works without first referring to the Father. The Father through Him, He being the conduit, turns the Father's works into His Works. Much like this verse;
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The very same reason Paul could say this:
1 Corinthians 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
Therefor:
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
This allows Christ to say that without the Father He can do nothing and yet also declare that He is working.
John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Alex, I totally agree that is the way God works, the power came from Father that Jesus used to do what He was doing. But there are Scripture where He does not first pray to the Father...
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
When Jesus walked on the water was it the Father walking through Him? Of course not. When He was reading the minds of the Pharisees was the Father whispering to Him their thoughts? In Mark 5 when the woman touched His robe and was healed the power came from Him, verse 30 "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him," this was power in Him that went out from Him.
Now of course that power in Him was the Holy Spirit was from the Father, that's where all power comes from, the Father, because the Father is greater (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). Jesus went back to the Father (John 14:12; 16:16; 20:17) because that was the source of everything, He is now at the right hand of that power (Matt 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) this is symbolic of where His power comes from, but it is His to use as God of this creation.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v.2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus was God!
Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."
That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.
His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.
The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
You're preaching to the choir here.
For the longest time I have believed, following Ray's lead and finding tons of Scriptures, that God is One. That there is only One God as the Scriptures teach. I'm glad someone else is coming around to that understanding. I was told by many that I was wrong. I'm glad I'm not the only one anymore.
But there are several Scriptures where Jesus tells us that of Himself, He could do nothing. Nothing.
Alex has quoted some of them. So since Jesus says it, it is so. His words are truth. Two paramount truths learned from Ray: 1) God does not lie, 2) God's Word does not lie.
From Philippians 2 we learn that Jesus emptied Himself. From Jesus' own statements, we learn He could do nothing on His own. This was for the approximately 33 years He was on earth as a man. Jesus' statements on this point cannot be ignored.
Just because Jesus didn't pray before a miracle doesn't mean Jesus did it. Jesus followed His own statements and prayed to the Father privately, without fanfare, without bringing attention to Himself. Which is why I detest public prayers; Jesus tells us to pray in private.
When Lazarus was raised from the dead is an example of when Jesus acknowledged praying to the Father so that those around would know that Lazarus was raised by the power of God.
I don't want to argue the point further. Everyone is at their own level. Jesus is working with everyone on an individual basis. As the Scripture says, "All will know Me, from the least to the greatest."
But failing to distinguish Jesus from before and after he was a human (33 years) causes some misunderstandings.
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Hi Alex, I totally agree that is the way God works, the power came from Father that Jesus used to do what He was doing. But there are Scripture where He does not first pray to the Father...
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
When Jesus walked on the water was it the Father walking through Him? Of course not. When He was reading the minds of the Pharisees was the Father whispering to Him their thoughts? In Mark 5 when the woman touched His robe and was healed the power came from Him, verse 30 "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him," this was power in Him that went out from Him.
Now of course that power in Him was the Holy Spirit was from the Father, that's where all power comes from, the Father, because the Father is greater (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). Jesus went back to the Father (John 14:12; 16:16; 20:17) because that was the source of everything, He is now at the right hand of that power (Matt 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) this is symbolic of where His power comes from, but it is His to use as God of this creation.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v.2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
As for the flower withering. I am in agreement with John on this. Not everything Jesus did was brought about through public prayer. This was done for our benefit and those around Him. I shared some of these verses earlier in the thread and I will again:
John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou [The Father] hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it,that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Never the less, it doesn't mean that Christ didn't rely on His Father for these other things. I think there are a few more of these examples but currently I havn't searched them out.
Now Jesus also said:
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Even Jesus' very own words were inspired and caused by the Father from on high.
Now as for the how he understood the pharisees thoughts, it tells us:
Mark 2:6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Where did this spirit come from? This holy spirit? From the Father who gave it to Christ. Yes, it now belongs to Christ, but it originated from the Father. It was through this power of the spirit that Christ could discern their intentions and thoughts.
I don't disagree that Christ has power but while Christ was in the form of a man and emptied of His divinity, that power came from His Father. He plainly states that of Himself He can do nothing as John re-iterated. "Nothing" is a pretty final. I'm trying to see a way around it but I just can't... I don't know... I'll pray about it some more. Thanks for the engaging discussion.
Love to you,
Alex
P.S. I agree too that there is only one God and Christ is God with power but while He was in the form of a man, emptied of His divinity, I believe He relied on the Father for everything.
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Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
Indeed. We all do.
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
Semantics, John. Jesus said he could at any time call "legions of angels" and be relieved of his sufferings. He also said his "Father always hears me". The source of his power: Father. Controller of the power: Jesus. But he always had the power of God, even as a man. Therefore he was (always) God. Exactly in the same capacity as we shall be one day. Not hard to understand...just Semantics. Easy peasy.
But you then went on later to say that "he emptied himself of being God". No He didn't. What he emptied himself of was his former GLORY... In the flesh, He was still God. Deniest thou that, John?
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
Great language lesson, John. Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though. I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what! It is as you stated in Matthew 27. I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip. :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO. And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death. Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!.. Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD. This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel. My .02 anyway.
So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid. But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.
Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive. You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool. But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me. I expect rudeness. I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you. :D
And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too. 8) You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread? Man up brother. You ain't seen nothing yet.
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Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
Indeed. We all do.
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
Semantics, John. Jesus said he could at any time call "legions of angels" and be relieved of his sufferings. He also said his "Father always hears me". The source of his power: Father. Controller of the power: Jesus. But he always had the power of God, even as a man. Therefore he was (always) God. Exactly in the same capacity as we shall be one day. Not hard to understand...just Semantics. Easy peasy.
But you then went on later to say that "he emptied himself of being God". No He didn't. What he emptied himself of was his former GLORY... In the flesh, He was still God. Deniest thou that, John?
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
Great language lesson, John. Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though. I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what! It is as you stated in Matthew 27. I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip. :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO. And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death. Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!.. Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD. This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel. My .02 anyway.
So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid. But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.
Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive. You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool. But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me. I expect rudeness. I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you. :D
And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too. 8) You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread? Man up brother. You ain't seen nothing yet.
Hi Lurquer,
This is what I understand of Christ emptying Himself:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
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Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says “mind” it is the disposition of God Himself. Where it says “equal with God” it is the same amount or degree and so on.
“Being in the form of God…” is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that's 'before' He became man, He was by birth - inborn.
Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.' Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was BORN. To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, 'from the beginning!' The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, from the beginning. Now it says.
Phi 2:6 …thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.
So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. What did He do? Where it says, "He made Himself of no reputation," the KJ margin says, He empted Himself of all His privileges. I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you’re not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. He voluntarily did that, “He took it on Himself,” you see. He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, “A little lower than the angels,” so they could kill Him. How was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn’t take it away, Christ gave it up.
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So you say Christ always had the power of God, even as man.
Now perhaps then you can explain to me how Christ emptying Himself of His privileges, all of them, means only relinquishing His glory and not His power too? Can you kill Christ if He had the power of God while man? What does it mean to have the "power of God?" I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Paul says the MAN Christ Jesus gave HImself as a ransom for all, not the GOD Christ Jesus:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
In Christ,
Alex
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Great language lesson, John. Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though. I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what! It is as you stated in Matthew 27. I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip. :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO. And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death. Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!.. Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD. This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel. My .02 anyway.
So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid. But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.
Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive. You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool. But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me. I expect rudeness. I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you. :D
And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too. 8) You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread? Man up brother. You ain't seen nothing yet.
Good post Michael. I also read a lot here and I see that there is not a lot of building one another up, but there is some tearing down from some who will even use scripture to bang you around with lol , wow it's like if your not educated you could be in for a lashing! Anyhow it is good to see someone else sees it...sorry I dont know how to insert quotes properly! 😂 (Mike I put the quote you posted from Lurquer in a quote box for you- Kat)
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Why do most decent interesting threads on this forum always turn negative?
Ray gives a great answer,
This book was written so that nobody could understand it, until God picks somebody out and says I want you to understand this book and I’ll show you how to understand it. That’s the only way. He’s got to pick you out and open up your mind or you will never understand this book. This book is written in all kinds of symbolism, figurative language, types, figures, images, examples, analogies, parables, metaphors and people think all those things are literal. That is confusion. That’s why the church is confused. That’s why there are supposedly 3000 Christian denominations in the world, because they don’t understand any of this stuff.
Seems to me this is just another I know more than you thread. :(
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I don't disagree that Christ has power but while Christ was in the form of a man and emptied of His divinity, that power came from His Father. He plainly states that of Himself He can do nothing as John re-iterated. "Nothing" is a pretty final. I'm trying to see a way around it but I just can't... I don't know... I'll pray about it some more. Thanks for the engaging discussion.
Christ was emptied of some of His prior "glory". Does that mean He was emptied of His "divinity"? Here is a comment Ray made at the "Is Jesus God" bible study in March of 2011:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)… that came down from heaven,
"He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that’s the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it."
"See I don’t think He emptied Himself of everything that was, all knowledge everything. I don’t think so. [Comment: Maybe He emptied Himself of something.] Yes He did, of course He did. He emptied Himself of some prior glory that He had."
Just some food for thought. Now, with that being said, let's move on before this topic gets further out of hand. :-\