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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: EKnight on July 13, 2008, 08:10:11 PM
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Does anyone attend a church service anymore? I have been a Catholic all my life but I stopped going to church a few months ago (April, I think).
But now my daughter (17) is questioning me about Christmas and getting married. She asked if we woud still celebrate Christmas I said yes. She asked would we go to church on Christmas, I said no. She asked where she would get married and who would officiate, I had no answer. She asked me if I was Catholic, I said "well I was born and raised Catholic but I no longer (and kinda never did) believe all of their "own" teachings like not eating meat on fridays during lent". Then she asked about lent, she said, "I don't have to give anything up for lent?" I said it's a nice sacrifice to make in gratefulness for Jesus' sacrifice on your behalf but you don't have to do anything.
I am the only one who is seeking the truth in my home and I am feeling bad that now everyone else is not even getting any teaching except for what they hear me talk about. I too feel bad that I am only fellowshipping here on the internet. Somehow it doesn't seem demonstrative enough. Save for the difference one can see in my actions. But even then, I am not sure they notice. They just think I relate everything they say and do to God and get mad at me.
I have two family weddings coming up in Sept and Oct. and people will notice when I don't go to communion and believe me, they are not ready to hear what I have to say especially since I am the youngest and never got the respect of my older siblings. Besides, they are not seeking anything, they are set in their ways. To tell the truth, I was not searching either, I just needed God to help me, and here is where I ended up.
I am just wondering if anyone else is having similar difficulties.
Eileen
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I think we can all relate to your situation, I have been to several services since discovering the truths written on www.bibletruths.com . None were regular services, mostly funerals, weddings, and a communion service for a nephew, and neice.
The last service was at my Grandmothers funeral just a few months ago, i'll admit, it was all i could do to sit and listen to the heresy, my stomach was wrenching, i honeslty felt like somone was pricking me with needles.
Be the best Mom/Wife you can be, Love your family, let everything else take care of itself.
It aint gettin any easier
Peace
Chris R
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Hi Eileen,
I can definitely relate. I feel a deeper void between me and my family growing and I haven't even told them everything I believe yet!!
They can't seem to get past the not going to church thing. So I get all kinds of advice on how to find a good church.
In the end, they just tell me no church is perfect. I just say yeah, thats the point! How can I go on to perfection being around imperfection. Honestly leaving the church was easy, I had been fed up for years before and my family new it but then we had all the same grips and concerns. Well a little different now.
Also if I could find a church where they teach this truths I would go! But thats highly doubtful.
I love this group and until God shows me otherwise I'll stick it out here! ;D
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Our situation is a little unique because we moved into a close by small town 3 years ago and had moved to a new church in our old town just before that where we never were able to connect with anyone. So when we left several months ago, they never noticed (pretty sad) or cared (even sadder but most likely truer :-\).
My friends don't really know we've left church since they all go to different ones. And my sister and her husband (a preacher :o) thankfully live 12 hours away.
Our only "problem" is the neighbors who attend 2 different local churches and tried now for 3 years to get us to switch who see that we no longer have our "excuse" of the old church as our cars are in the driveway as they leave and return on Sundays. I am sure they see us as backsliders when in fact we are studying more than ever! :D
I guess all this rambling is just that we have decided to ignore what others think about us. If they ask, we'll tell them as we feel led to-- or not. But it isn't our place to make sure everyone judges us justly. It is their problem. As long as we are pleasing our Heavenly Father, that is all we need to concern ourselves with.
We are just thrilled to be out of the church. I still listen to stuff on the radio and occasional TV to keep myself sharp. I am amazed at how they sneak in unscriptural garbage in with truth followed by a Scripture which only backs up one point. How often and how much stuff did I fall for before because of my ignorance and not seeing the sad doctrine they teach? It makes me so thankful to know the truth now.
And yes, funerals must be the worst. My dad's was so full of lies that I was very uncomfortable and my brother in law did the service.
Very hard to keep your mouth shut, especially having one as large as mine. ;) But I have learned that it is pointless to throw my pearls to swine so I do it.
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Eileen, my answer would be too long if I tried to squeeze it all out. The short version is: I've been out of church for 20 years or so. To at least some degree, this was due to a limited understanding of what B-T is about.
Would I ever make another visit?
Well, I look at it this way. My mother is a good Christian woman. She's in her 70's and in decent health and of sound mind. If there were special times that I could 'make her happy' by going through some of the motions, I think my concience is strong enough and my faith in the real gospel deep enough that I could do it, and would.
If she were to insist, however, that I made a habit of it, then I would NOT be able to do that, and wouldn't. I would do the same for my sisters to a lesser exent.
At this point, though, I'm NOT rooted enough to consider 'explaining' in detail what changes I've experienced since finding B-T. Right now, I think all she (they) would be able to 'hear' is that I 'don't believe' this or that...not that 'I believe' this or that...and it wouldn't just be their spiritual blindness or delusion that would be the cause of that--it would be my own nascent undertanding unable to express it otherwise.
I may not be a babe in Christ...I think I'm more of an pre-adolescent. LOL. Full of impulses and enthusiasm, but lacking much real, applied, hard-won wisdom.
BUT...they already know I have been unhappy with orthodox Christianity, so at the least I have a foundation now for that...and it is a continuation of what began 20-25 years ago in many ways.
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I was also raised Catholic and I have not been to church in months. It was not a huge deal when I stopped going because we as a family have only been attending occassionally. My grandmother was a bit upset that I'm no longer Catholic but it was no big deal. Many of my friends are Christians but not overly religous. When the subject comes up I talk about how the church is teaching lies and also about bible-truths.com. Usually when I explain they seem to consider some of the things but not really investigate for themselves.
So fortunately for me my close ones are rather tolerant.
To those who have trouble I'd like to offer some verses for encouragement and edification.
2 tim 3:12
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Matt 10
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
I would also like to add that I am much more content after reading bible-truths and disassociating from traditional churches. Sure there is some initial shock from family but I believe it is necessary to come out fully of Babylon and fully worth it.
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My local Cathedral is open all day, and so I often go in and just sit down in there when there are no services. You can just sit quietly on your own in relative silence. I don't go sundays for the service. Its a beautiful old place, and just a nice place to be. I find I can go there and not have to think about some of the stuff that's preached there on a Sunday, I can just sit and enjoy the building, walk around its huge walkways and admire the architecture, read all the inscriptions on the stones etc and learn about the history of the place. Also I occasionally go to the sunday evening Gregorian choir concerts because I just love ancient Gregorian music. I don't have a clue whats being said as most of it is in Latin, but its just glorious to listen to in the setting of an old Cathedral.
Luckily here in Britain and Europe visiting ancient Churches and Cathedrals doesn't have to be about all the false doctrines in the Church, as a visitor you can get so much more out of it.
So yes I go to Church, but No I do not attend services anymore. If its a family or friends wedding or Christening or confirmation that I'm invited to, off course I'll go and join in the service and celebration. I don't feel there's a conflict between attending a Church wedding etc, and coming out of the Babylonian Church system. After all, the modern Anglican Wedding ceremony and service has practically nothing to do with Biblical marriage anyway, its come down mainly from ancient Germanic pagan marriage rituals adopted by the early European Church (according to Encyclopedia Britanica and many other secular historical sources).
I think once we're out of Babylon spiritually, I don't see how physically being in a Church attending a wedding etc is going to taint our minds and hearts. If it does then we're probably not spiritually out of Babylon yet.
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Hi Eileen,
I was wondering if your daughter or anyone else misses going to church and wants to still go? Young Girls often dream of their wedding day, and plan and picture it in their minds. I don't know how old your daughter is, but if this is a concern for her, maybe you can help her to see her Wedding Day with a fresh look. Encourage her to be creative in the setting, and the ceremony. The foundation of a Marriage Ceremony is the exchanging of Vows in the presence of God, and he is everywhere.
I don't know if catholics still restrict the ceremony to inside a church? If so, it may be liberating for her to know she can now have it outside in a garden setting, or on a beach.
I also wouldn't have a problem with attending any church or temple for Weddings or Funerals, or even to see a Child's Christmas play. When my Husband's parents come down to visit, we sometimes go to Mass with them. It makes his Mom happy, and I focus on what we have in common in our faith. When your family reacts to your not taking the sacrament at the upcoming Weddings, if questioned you may simply tell them that you are not at a place you feel comfortable talking about it yet, and to keep you in prayer! Then when you feel led by God to do so, you can give answer with the armor of God.
It won't be easy, my family has reacted with distaste everytime I have brought things up about God's truth. But at least they are out of the Church and aren't trying to drag me back in one. I'm sure everyone here will pray and support you though these things.
Brenda
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Why would you want to go to a church that isn't even remotely close to Ray's teachings?
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Why would you want to go to a church that isn't even remotely close to Ray's teachings?
I don't. I just feel for the rest of my family(my husband and kids) that there is a lack of structured worship and so they don't do anything. At least they used to hear a reading from the old testament and two from the new testament on Sundays. But since I found BT, they don't do anything.
Eileen
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I'm not facing this as a parent, so I sympathize more than empathize. But is there a way you can lead a devotional? Three verses a week shouldn't be too hard, if you can lead at least your kids to understand that scripture is more important to you than tradition.
To bring Ray up in this thread: Has he suggested that it is wrong to take communion? I know he shares what the scriptures say about it being a physical ritual with no power to increase your 'holiness', but he's also said he has no problem with people who do it. There might be something about Catholic belief that would make that more troublesome than it might be for me...I just don't know. Just something to consider.
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Dave-I just couldn't receive communion, it's so bogus to me now. I actually feel bad saying that because truthfully, had I not been raised in faith, Catholic or otherwise, I sincerely believe I would not be here today or the person I am today. So I am somewhat grateful for the way my parents raised me. I was married in the Catholic church and my husband and I took our vows before God seriously because of it. I have a had time putting the Catholic church down. After all, I have loved ones who are sincere in their faith and if I condemn Catholicism, I feel like I am condemning them and I would never want to do that. They are all good people. My family, immediate and extended, are very important to me. I've never really had or needed friends because I have a close family. In fact 5 of 11 of us still vacation in NC every summer. So I don't want to alienate them
As for reading scripture to my kids(22,20 and 17)......well, that'll never happen. They don't listen to me as it is. They are college students in the world and they are as carnal as they come. I pray they seek God out some day and hopefully come to me. My daughter is the only one who listens to me these days and up until April she and my husband and myself were the only one attending church on a regular basis anyway. I do, however, speak aloud of the things I am learning here so I am hoping seeds are being planted. I just don't want them to stray so far from faith that they never return and seeing me attend mass was an outward sign of my faith and now they don't see that and it concerns me how this may or may not effect them.
Sorry for being so long-winded and baring my soul here but I feel lonely in this newfound faith when my family isn't on the same page. I am always working on my husband and he believes a lot but is not reading these things and not seeking the way I am and I feel he should. I know, I know unless the Father drag (draw) him.....but still it's difficult.
Well thanks for listening once again.
Eileen
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Why would you want to go to a church that isn't even remotely close to Ray's teachings?
This is a very good question. I'll use this question to answer in a wisdom based way.
IMHO, the issue here is not a dilution of truth, but a matter of COMMUNITY. As our sons and daughters grow into adulthood, we carry the burden in not isolating them from ritual participation whilst still finding true faith toward God. Any reforming Christian faces many dilemmas.
If we go back to history, Martin Luther faced many things. The sheep of the fold the Catholic Church were scattered at this time of upheaval. Yet it was in the purpose of God to do so. The vice iron grip of Roman theology defaced the gospel for centuries as other entrenched traditional heretical beliefs have done down throughout the centuries.
Certain rituals remain - being married as a community declaration before God by faith. For this we have Celebrants, of which I myself am empowered by the state to do so here in Australia. The ceremony then can be as full of faith toward God as much as the ritual church ceremony. It can be in a secular community gathering. I seem absolutely no harm in partaking of Communion, subject to our heart faith toward God. It is ritual of remembrance of the Life, death and Resurrection hope found in Christ and by his blood and body of compassion at His cruxifiction. The spotless Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sins of WHAT? - the elect, the holy, NO! WHO TAKES away the sins of the SINS of the WORLD!
That aside, please do NOT fall into the trap in being militant. For there are those we know as Jesus said who take the Kingdom of God by force and violence. Our doctrine is to shaped in the gospel of compassion and aiding those around us to come to the love of the truth. In Luther's day [see the new movie] - there were those who wanted to burn everything with fire. Any idol, any cross, any painting were to be burned in fire and the temples of the old torn down. This reminds of the Hellistic evangelists who threaten the world with their spiteful god and fire eternity. In that past history came genocide within ancient Germany. Was it the fault of Luther's doctrine? No a handful of leaders grasped the truths of papal heresies so violently that it led to violence, killing, destruction and death.
But we are to be of another mindset. Let the teachings of Ray and many others throughout the world [Australia] that are reformational "wash" over you. Allow the cleansing to be by new found faith discovery and not by fire or sword. Allow our fresh love of truth found in our Lord bring me and you into the light but let us take others with us on this journey of peace and discovery. Let's marvel at the Grace for us now and for the world whilst instilling the same journey of our faith into our sons and daughters.
digitalwise
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Hello Eileen,
Firstly, I want to make it clear that I have no desire to be Judgemental towards anyone that still goes to Church to any degree. Personally, I have no desire to attend any of the various Churches, I don't think I want to spiritually fellowship with anyone that teaches and supports the major falsehoods that are supported by the various denominations of Christendom. Insofar as attending someone's wedding or funeral, personally I don't have a problem with that, obviously when we attend a Funeral, we wouldn't support the notion that the individual that passed away, went to Heaven or something of that nature, but our conscience might lead us to attend out of respect for that person and to support the family members.
After leaving the JW'S in 2003, I didn't have any desire or interest in going back to the Churches, through my research, I reasoned they had many errors as part of their belief structure and didn't see any sense in subjecting myself on a regular basis to any of these errors, the only exception would most likely be Weddings and Funerals. I spent most of the interim time from 2003-2008 researching my former beliefs, examining others and proceeding to discard whatever wasn't supported by Scripture or not being overly concerned with matters that were of a minor nature or where the Scriptures were essentially silent or not explicitly clear, so as not to be dogmatic about it. Of course this research eventually led me here at Bible-Truths. Attaining some type of Christian Fellowship was lacking in my life, but that need is satisfied at this Forum.
Hope this helps, but once again, this is my preference and is not intended or desired on my part form some Judgement towards you or any Forum member that chooses otherwise.
My regards, Samson.
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Why would you want to go to a church that isn't even remotely close to Ray's teachings?
I don't. I just feel for the rest of my family(my husband and kids) that there is a lack of structured worship and so they don't do anything. At least they used to hear a reading from the old testament and two from the new testament on Sundays. But since I found BT, they don't do anything.
Eileen
They don't do anything? That's terrible. Well, football season is coming soon and then they will have plenty to do (while sitting on the couch, drinking beer, belching, etc.). We must remember that when listening to a preacher reading scripture, that it is hard to cover ones ear when they start flapping off with their Babylonian fill ins. Besides, who can listen to a sermon while their favorite team is at the 10 yard line? Can't be done!!
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Here is a email that Ray mentions communion and it also has a mention of Martin Luther that I've heard mention a few times.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,251.0.html ------
You know, I have kind of a rule of thumb: If the Church teaches it, it must be wrong.
Martin Luther and John Calvin were two of the most evil and vile heretics that have ever drawn breath on this earth. Disagree with heretic Calvin, and you just might end up being toasted over a low heat fire for maximum pain. Calvin is at the very bottom of the cesspool of humanity--what possible sin could top that?
There is no such thing as a "weekly Lord's day" in the Scriptures. Numerous physical rituals were performed in the early years of the Apostles' ministries until they came to a realization that it is the spirit that matters, not the physical. We are circumcized WITHOUT HANDS in our hear and spirit, and the same goes for communion, baptism, sabbath days, etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi again, Eileen,
In Kat's Post, she enters Ray's E-mail regarding John Calvin and Martin Luther. John Calvin stood by as Michael Servetus was being slowly roasted to death for not believing in the Trinity, aside from being a Medical Doctor discovering Pulmonary Resusitation Principle, he was Non-Trinitarian in belief. Martin Luther at the very least was a Spiritual compromiser(Augsburg Confession) and proceeded to persecute other Protestant Denominations that didn't agree with his views.
Samson.
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Here is a email that Ray mentions communion and it also has a mention of Martin Luther that I've heard mention a few times.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,251.0.html ------
You know, I have kind of a rule of thumb: If the Church teaches it, it must be wrong.
Martin Luther and John Calvin were two of the most evil and vile heretics that have ever drawn breath on this earth. Disagree with heretic Calvin, and you just might end up being toasted over a low heat fire for maximum pain. Calvin is at the very bottom of the cesspool of humanity--what possible sin could top that?
There is no such thing as a "weekly Lord's day" in the Scriptures. Numerous physical rituals were performed in the early years of the Apostles' ministries until they came to a realization that it is the spirit that matters, not the physical. We are circumcized WITHOUT HANDS in our hear and spirit, and the same goes for communion, baptism, sabbath days, etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
Whilst I do agree that Luther made many many mistakes, it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them. They were only human coming out of the DARK ages of civilization and had many many flaws - just like you and me.
These men carried the light as far as they could in their time. The Lord understands them better then I. They held to the primitive DEVELOPMENT of NON-FREE WILL, UNIVERALISM and CARE for family as opposed to giving to church for blessing, buried men in santified grounds of the church who were not "Christian", established a social system for peasents so they did not starve by Church taxing the poor and stopped disease like black plague in cities through advancing of sanitation systems. Emphasis here is on PRIMITIVE doctrinal development. I'll leave alternative positives concerning these mere men to you doing your own research.
All in all we must NOT follow mere men but learn from their mistakes - as unfortunately history has a bad habit of repeating into our present.
Above all we need wisdom and balance when speaking on such matters of history.
digitalwise
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I do not attend any church. I find that the more I progress the more religion in all shapes and forms are being detached from inside me.
2 Kings 10:27 Then they broke down the sacred pillar of Baal, and tore down the temple of Baal and made it a refuse dump to this day.
I'm so looking forward to becoming a dump. ;)
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I do not attend any church. I find that the more I progress the more religion in all shapes and forms are being detached from inside me.
2 Kings 10:27 Then they broke down the sacred pillar of Baal, and tore down the temple of Baal and made it a refuse dump to this day.
I'm so looking forward to becoming a dump. ;)
Why a dump? I can see where your coming from but...............
2 Corinthians Chapter 3
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. :D
a 2 Corinthians 3:18 Or contemplate
digitalwise
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Here is a email that Ray mentions communion and it also has a mention of Martin Luther that I've heard mention a few times.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,251.0.html ------
You know, I have kind of a rule of thumb: If the Church teaches it, it must be wrong.
Martin Luther and John Calvin were two of the most evil and vile heretics that have ever drawn breath on this earth. Disagree with heretic Calvin, and you just might end up being toasted over a low heat fire for maximum pain. Calvin is at the very bottom of the cesspool of humanity--what possible sin could top that?
There is no such thing as a "weekly Lord's day" in the Scriptures. Numerous physical rituals were performed in the early years of the Apostles' ministries until they came to a realization that it is the spirit that matters, not the physical. We are circumcized WITHOUT HANDS in our hear and spirit, and the same goes for communion, baptism, sabbath days, etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
Whilst I do agree that Luther made many many mistakes, it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them. They were only human coming out of the DARK ages of civilization and had many many flaws - just like you and me.
These men carried the light as far as they could in their time. The Lord understands them better then I. They held to the primitive DEVELOPMENT of NON-FREE WILL, UNIVERALISM and CARE for family as opposed to giving to church for blessing, buried men in santified grounds of the church who were not "Christian", established a social system for peasents so they did not starve by Church taxing the poor and stopped disease like black plague in cities through advancing of sanitation systems. Emphasis here is on PRIMITIVE doctrinal development. I'll leave alternative positives concerning these mere men to you doing your own research.
All in all we must NOT follow mere men but learn from their mistakes - as unfortunately history has a bad habit of repeating into our present.
Above all we need wisdom and balance when speaking on such matters of history.
digitalwise
Hi digitalwise,
Of course Martin Luther (and others) are/were only human and prone to sin as we all are, but we could also say that about other men who saw torturing and murdering as their "divine" right. We could list the "good" of Vlad the Impaler, Hitler, Stalin, etc. who also viewed themselves of having the power and authority over men's lives. But Luther and Calvin did these things in the name of Jesus!
In regard to Luther ending the Black Plague (Bubonic Plague, Black Death) he was not even born when the Plague wiped out 1/3 of Europe's population Luther lived from 1483 - 1546, the Black Plague's worst devastation was a five year period between 1347 - 1352.
Getting back to Hitler, Martin Luther was actually a philosophical mentor (not in person of course) of his, using many of Luther's writings to justify his treatment (Final Solution) of the Jewish race.
There is a plethora of information available in regard to this, here is an example;
"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know."
http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html
While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well.
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Eileen,
I believe what I hear you saying is "I am feeling Lost" and Separated. Going to Church was apart of your identity, how you expresses to the world, I belong and believe in God! It has been a shared intimacy that works like a glue for your family. It has been the way in which you have been an example to your Children and Husband.
Now what Do you do? (I don't know how to post a link to it, so I pasted some of Ray's points)
(I just reread Ray's article): WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?
HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local Cafe as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:
"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: ‘conduct’] honest [Gk: ‘honorable’] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).
Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to Gods judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let's not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).
Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don't GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.
But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:
"For [‘for’ means ‘because’] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
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What I think we are all learning here, in different areas of our lives, is to trust in Gods ability we have to die to ourselves in all things! He is ultimately "The Parent/Father" to your children, husband, you, and your entire family! Take that burdon from your shoulders, and walk after Him.
Your Sister in Christ,
Brenda
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Yes Brenda, that is exactly how I feel and your post was most beneficial.
[i]Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.[/i]
I seriously hope this is true. I've often wondered if my husband (since we became one flesh) could/would benefit from my having faith. And my children are decent too, they just don't yet understand that these blessings come from God.
Thanks Brenda, I am now off to work feeling a bit free(er).
Eileen
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"While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well."
The Old Testament scriptures are full of them as well...disobedient prophets, evil Kings (both of Israel and foreign lands), Kings with evil in them...all set by God to do His work. All examples of how 'not to be'. No man is perfect, to be sure, but the Perfect has come.
Luk 6:40
(ISV) A disciple is not better than his teacher. But everyone who is fully-trained will be like his teacher.
Joh 17:23
(YLT) I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
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Hi digitalwise,
it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them.
Here are a few things I found in a critic of Martin Luther.
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The peasants of Germany revolted in 1525 because of their miserable living conditions and were slaughtered at the behest of Martin Luther! Here is a quote from Luther; "They should be knocked to pieces, strangled and stabbed, secretly and openly, by everybody who can do it, just as one must kill a mad dog!"
Here is another of Luther's commented that James was "a right strawy epistle" and questioned whether a book of such inferior worth even belonged in the New Testament. (from LUTHER, THE DERANGED THEOLOGIAN http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/luther1.htm)
Here is a comment from Ray concerning this qoute from Luther:
Martin Luther called James an Epistle of straw or almost worthless, you know. What do you do with straw? You burn it, you burn the straw and the stubble. That was Martin Luther, this great reformer? He thought that the Epistle of James was worth nothing more than to burn in the fire... how about that?
(from the May Bible study 'DOES A SOVEREIGN GOD EVER CHANGE ?')
I'm just can't see holding this man up as some great historical church leader, sure he made some reforms, but 'great' were his evil acts... I'll just stick with the Apostle James.
Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
v. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
v. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
v. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html
Joe[/color]
Wow...Joe,
I just read the link you posted. How HORRIDLY Hateful! :'( I had no clue about this. I watched a "PBS Special" (I think) concerning him, and this side wasn't protrayed. (I don't understand in what way he felt the Jews were stealing from them?) ??? Thanks Kat this is all new stuff to me.
To bad he didn't read Rays teaching on the Beast!
Brenda
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Eileen, you've probably read this already, but I just did this morning and it's of tremendous value for this discussion. (How often that seems to happen around here! Can anybody say, "Must be God?")
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
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While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well.
Peace,
Joe
Very true. In reference to Luther, I was referrring to sanitation systems introduced by Calvin.
This is somewhat off topic here, I thought I'd clarify this situation. And for sure the historical record are far more complex then most are aware. And when we speak of these matters we should understand them better if we start quoting by ARDENT study and AVOIDANCE of the heresies. We do learn from our past.
Putting aside these violent historical times and the upheavels at this time, it is of necessity we LEARN from from these historical times of the ROOT theological developments so we can better understand the embedded heresies of today in the churches.
These violent times in the purposes in God were to release the hold of captivity of Babylon on the Church.
I am establisihng a church fellowship. My Christian journey from Armstrong, my journey in the scriptures and the historical record of the church in study spans over 35 years. I am FULLY conversant with the proper extraction of scripture. I do have formal training in many areas I will not elaborate here.
With that "ego" part of me aside here: It is to this I have come. The establishment of a fellowship here in Australia INDEPENDENT of Ray's efforts in the US.
However of interest and concern to you and everyone here - INDEPENDENTLY I have come to the doctrinal conclusions of Ray here on forum. On matters of scripture then WE DO NOT differ. And so it should be, afterall do not we have the same bible and access to works on original Greek and Hebrew and over 50+ bible translations.
It is those free thoughts I leave you,
Blessings from our Lord,
digitalwise.
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Hi digitalwise,
I'm just can't see holding this man up as some great historical church leader, sure he made some reforms, but 'great' were his evil acts... I'll just stick with the Apostle James.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dear Kate,
The Epistle of James was firstly addressed to the Jewish [Christian] believers. The added bonus of this epsitle is the balance in respect of the LAW as applied under Spiritual outpouring and the establishment of the Church after the Pentecost event recorded in Acts and the spread of the gospel.
The use of the espistle James upset Luther as the Roman Church of the time CORRUPTED the writings of James in an attempt to kill off the merits of Christ - that is SOLA by FAITH in Christ. We become PRESENT priviledged children of God without some inter mediatory Catholic priest telling us what the scriptures mean. The espitle of James became straw in the hands of papal doctrinal interpretation. So it may exist today and does in the forms of many heresies in the present day churches.
As for matters pertaining leadership and the violent historical records see my comments on the former post.
Blessing in the Lord,
digitalwise
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The espitle of James became straw in the hands of papal doctrinal interpretation.
I have a different understanding of Luther concerning the Apostle James. Whether he had a problem with the Roman Church and their corruption of the writings of James, from his own quotes he clearly did not have understanding of what is taught by James and believed he contradicted Paul.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/luther1.htm#1 -----
On the canonical level, a particular target of Martin Luther's ire was the New Testament epistle of James. The epistles assertion that "faith without works is also dead" absolutely rubbed Martin the wrong way (as it had Paul before him). Luther commented that James was "a right strawy epistle" and questioned whether a book of such inferior worth even belonged in the New Testament.
"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."
"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."
"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg].... -------------------------------------------------
The church see an 'apparent' contradiction of the teachings of James and John, Luther certainly did. Though you want to be "INDEPENDENT of Ray's efforts" maybe you would like to listen to his Bible study - 'James & Paul Contradict?'
July 1, 2007 Bible study
http://bible-truths.com/audio/07-01-07_Part1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/07-01-07_Part2.mp3
Rays notes for this study: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4828.0.html
mercy, peace and loove
Kat
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Good references, Kat from Ray! Of course we are on the SAME page here regarding deductive teaching from James and the correct doctrine. I cannot emphasise that enough here.
A comment on Web links:
The web links - but please check there authority, this same web site calls Paul the Apostle an idiot and a fool. Some web sites despite there apparent quality of sources will inflame negative perceptions of the historical record much like a brain labotomy - cut all positive bits and bring forward the negative bits.
A fair and unbiased treatment would be Wikipedia on Martin Luther without inducting other religious and denominational bias.
As for the other - I'll state again: The epistle of James in those times was corrupted by Papal so called scholar works mentality, that even this guy Luther had difficulty with it with his "papal" darkened and influenced mind. This is by inductive reasoning as to why this would be in this character of the man. The lack of native tongue bible translations, and other works of the bible WERE BANNED by the Catholic church and did not make the understanding any easier. Luther translated the bible to native German tongue for the COMMON people otherwise banned to the the point of death by church decree. Those were very different times. They were NOT the easy peasy times of today. For that we must not do violence to the historical record and be more even minded.
In those times - Faith was supposed to exist only in relics and elements santified by the Catholic church! And the reformation is all about countering that great lie from hades.
As is of today many churches have a failed understanding of the LAW and GRACE positioning of James. As of today many Christians do not understand the difference between IMPUTED righteousness as opposed to imparted righteousness. One is right standing with God based on the merits of Christ and the other is the endemic heresy of the old Armstrong movement, perfection holiness movements and legalistic organizations who seek control over weak minds in the churches.
An imparted doctrine of righteousness corrupts the free Gift of God in Christ and expects perfection in this life. It demands obligations and sacrifies made to the church organizations. One example is the evil tithing doctrine.
I believe NO man is justified by the WORKS of the LAW. [LAW underlined] James was expressing the outcomes that were the RESULT of the Spiritual outpouring that should manifest in believers as consequence of their faith.
When I say independent of Ray, I am dependent on NO mans teachings however it is a priviledge and a great faith boost to see those being called out of the "Babylonian churches" by Ray's study of the scriptures. Finally if the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, dwell in Ray who teaches the bible clearly then that same Spirit is more then capable in teaching other men and women in other parts of the world THE SAME identical teachings, independently. It is not dependent on one man.
We are on the same page - relax.
Blessings,
digitalwise
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Thanks for the clarification, Digitalwise. I believe your testimony that God's Spirit can do and does do the same work through the same Spirit independantly. For my own small part, which is where my Spirit can bear witness, God began teaching me beyond what I had grown up with the very first time I read the New Testament as a teenager--beyond sound bytes from pulpit and sunday school class, filtered through denominational doctrine.
That understand began to grow the more I read and contemplated what I was learning as opposed to what I was being taught. Numbers mean nothing here as to what 'percentage' of right New Testament doctrine I was recieving straight from the scriptures, but I don't think it's a lie to say that I was part-way 'there'--and not just in rejection of heresy, but in understanding of truth.
My own nascent recognition of truth did NOT lead me to further study and a more perfect understanding, however. From that foundation (at least 35 years ago and for a number of years following), I have almost exclusively Ray to thank for whatever is built in me now and owe him a great debt.
So I pray for you and your ministry in Australia that God will open a new channel to call out His elect into an example of fellowship with sound doctrine and love.
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Hi digitalwise,
I believe NO man is justified by the WORKS of the LAW. [LAW underlined] James was expressing the outcomes that were the RESULT of the Spiritual outpouring that should manifest in believers as consequence of their faith.
It is good to see that we have the same understanding where James is concerned.
As for Martin Luther, I do understand that he played a part in getting a non-corrupt Bible translated so that the people could have a Scripture source. That is one side of the story. Ray spoke a good deal about him in his Mobile Conference in 2007 'How We Got The Bible.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.15.html -----
Martin Luther, 60 years before the King James came out, he is putting together a German Bible. But he’s not going to translate this one from the Latin, he used the recent Greek edition of Erasmus, the parallel of the Greek and the Latin. He puts that into German. So this is the first Bible in the European language that’s translated from the original language, Martin Luther’s Bible.
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I can see how there are independent believers and that only Jesus Christ is the real source of all undestanding. But it was through Ray's teaching that God has opened my eyes. He spends a lot His time studying the Scriptures and explaining in great detail what is revealed to him. This gives us here at BT the foundational truths that the church is totally lacking. From a solid foundation we can move on into our own study of the Word.
We are glad to have any like minded person join our fellowship :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Subject going to church: Yesterday I was telling a friend I would like to go to a church to see what they are preaching these days. It's been a very long time since I have been to church. Last time was a cathloic church, well I was raised cathloic. I know what they teach but I am ignorent when it comes to other religions. Just to see how far others go when teaching their own belief's. Should I do this or not I feel maby I shouldn't mess with this idea. Maby I just ansewered my own question.
Darren
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Subject going to church: Yesterday I was telling a friend I would like to go to a church to see what they are preaching these days. It's been a very long time since I have been to church. Last time was a cathloic church, well I was raised cathloic. I know what they teach but I am ignorent when it comes to other religions. Just to see how far others go when teaching their own belief's. Should I do this or not I feel maby I shouldn't mess with this idea. Maby I just ansewered my own question.
Darren
Bingo...
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That's funny!! ;) :D ;D
Darren
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We all have to remember that the "shadow" is not evil, but....come out of her my people can not be interpreted in any other way...come out of her. Knowing the truth now I have no desire to go back, even for a visit ;D
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I went to a service with my 11 year old son last sunday evening...my 14 year old daughter was sitting in the bench behind me with her friends. Around me where people i know...people i know personally...friends....some very dear friends. I listened to the pastor...and you know...although i have learnt a lot in the past few weeks...i told an elder i learnt more in the past few weeks then in 20 years of going to church...THANK YOU LORD...im not ready to let go, and i doubt if i need to. I have let go..spiritually...i came out of her...spiritually, i dont have a doubt about that. But when i leave physically, i cannot reach them, i will loose contact, and with that the possibillity to try and make them think. If they kick me out becos of blindness..i will love them very much...and go, but untill that happens, i will stay, i will be critical, i will write emails, letters, have conversations, throw pearls...becos i cannot judge who are sweins (is this english ?) and who are not.
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Sirach, I admire your stance and will pray for you and family.
Act 14:1 (ISV) In Iconium they (Paul and Barnabas) went into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.
This happened after other occasions where they were assaulted and abused by the rulers of the synagogues.
I have to agree with you that we don't know who are swine until they prove it. Perhaps even your pastor is struggling, but fearful.
Perhaps they mean nothing, but I have been having dreams of taking this Gospel back into the churches.
I'll pray for you that God will increase your knowledge, faith, and love and give you grace and joy whatever the outcome.
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Hmm, I don't think I would have the courage. Maybe I will just send my husband back to do my dirty work :) :) :)
Eileen