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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: octoberose on October 24, 2016, 04:24:10 AM

Title: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 24, 2016, 04:24:10 AM
George brought up Daniel and the issue of eating meat. As it happens, I've been wanting to talk about food related things.
  My belief about Daniel is that he refused the kings meat not because there was is anything intrinsically wrong with eating meat, but because the meat was either  not prepared according to God's law or the meat was pork.   Daniel did not want to be defiled and God had let them eat meat as long as it followed His guidelines .
  What I want to ask is, do you see a correlation between diet and our spiritual health?  Some of us struggle with weight, some with health issues.  If God knows every hair on our heads, surely He also concerns Himself with our food. Surely nothing in our lives exisit outside of Him.
  Would snyone share their food journey, and how it relates to being  a follower of Christ?
 
 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 24, 2016, 07:52:20 AM
octoberose -

George brought up Daniel and the issue of eating meat. As it happens, I've been wanting to talk about food related things.
  My belief about Daniel is that he refused the kings meat not because there was is anything intrinsically wrong with eating meat, but because the meat was either  not prepared according to God's law or the meat was pork.   Daniel did not want to be defiled and God had let them eat meat as long as it followed His guidelines .
  What I want to ask is, do you see a correlation between diet and our spiritual health?  Some of us struggle with weight, some with health issues.  If God knows every hair on our heads, surely He also concerns Himself with our food. Surely nothing in our lives exisit outside of Him.
  Would snyone share their food journey, and how it relates to being  a follower of Christ?

Without going into any detail - the thing that sticks in my mind is that every living creature (birds, fish, animals, men, women and children) ate fruit, nuts and vegetables before Noah's flood.

Apart from mankind being totally corrupt, and Our Heavenly Father having destroyed those on the land - I know of nothing else that is significant - yet Our Heavenly Father then stated that all living creatures could from then on eat the meat of animals, fish, birds, etc.

We know that Jesus Himself ate fish after He was Resurrected.

I have studied this somewhat, and it appears that we need alkaline foods to stay healthy, but most of us eat acidic foods.

I thought that The Scriptures stated that Daniel did not eat any meat.

Interesting topic, as a lot of people have recently become Vegans, mostly due to the fact that they have discovered how the animals, chickens, and fish are treated.

Kind Regards.

George

 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Extol on October 24, 2016, 12:03:21 PM
But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat.-Daniel 1:8

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.-John 4:34

This is not about eating the flesh of animals. Later in the story, Daniel's friends "refused the king's meat" by not bowing to his statue of gold.

George, I do not agree that all people before the Flood were vegan. I believe people were eating meat long before Adam. But even if they were vegan, how/why is that any kind of impetus for becoming vegan? (You stated in the other thread I have recently become a Vegan, as I have discovered how the animals that we all eat are treated - and I am wondering why I did not do this earlier, as Daniel lived like this, and so did all who lived before the flood.) You say that mankind was totally corrupt. That means we should copy their eating habits?

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lostANDfound on October 24, 2016, 12:12:33 PM
I won't share my entire food journey but I will say that now, a few months from turning 40, I am probably the healthiest I've ever been since changing how I make food decisions.  I don't give a hoot what the Stroke Foundation, FDA, etc. say is healthy. It's based on how God-made versus human-altered different foods are.  Butter over margerine. Lots of local eggs, wild meat, garden veg, and we raise meat rabbits that run around and soak up the sun and are culled if they're sick instead of injected with junk to keep them "healthy". But if God chooses for me to struggle with sickness again I will, despite my efforts. Healthy eating was becoming an idol for me about seven years ago but I feel like it's been smashed off that pedestal now and it's just a general way of life that doesn't always happen but mostly does. If God intends for my to be sick, I will be, but I don't plan to encourage the matter by eating Doritos and donuts all day. Also, I am only healing, not yet healed of long term heavy metal poisoning. 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 24, 2016, 12:21:53 PM
Jesse -

But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat.-Daniel 1:8

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.-John 4:34

This is not about eating the flesh of animals. Later in the story, Daniel's friends "refused the king's meat" by not bowing to his statue of gold.

George, I do not agree that all people before the Flood were vegan. I believe people were eating meat long before Adam. But even if they were vegan, how/why is that any kind of impetus for becoming vegan? (You stated in the other thread I have recently become a Vegan, as I have discovered how the animals that we all eat are treated - and I am wondering why I did not do this earlier, as Daniel lived like this, and so did all who lived before the flood.) You say that mankind was totally corrupt. That means we should copy their eating habits?

I do not fully understand about what we are to eat and drink - and I am still researching this.

I am not sure that any ate meat before the flood.

The Scriptural witnesses do not fit right with me on this at the moment.

As I said, Jesus ate fish after He was Resurrected.

I know we are not to judge each other on what we are to eat.

Kind Regards.

George



Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 24, 2016, 12:50:40 PM
lostANDfound -

I won't share my entire food journey but I will say that now, a few months from turning 40, I am probably the healthiest I've ever been since changing how I make food decisions.  I don't give a hoot what the Stroke Foundation, FDA, etc. say is healthy. It's based on how God-made versus human-altered different foods are.  Butter over margerine. Lots of local eggs, wild meat, garden veg, and we raise meat rabbits that run around and soak up the sun and are culled if they're sick instead of injected with junk to keep them "healthy". But if God chooses for me to struggle with sickness again I will, despite my efforts. Healthy eating was becoming an idol for me about seven years ago but I feel like it's been smashed off that pedestal now and it's just a general way of life that doesn't always happen but mostly does. If God intends for my to be sick, I will be, but I don't plan to encourage the matter by eating Doritos and donuts all day. Also, I am only healing, not yet healed of long term heavy metal poisoning.

May He completely heal you from the heavy metal poisining.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Extol on October 24, 2016, 01:40:38 PM

I do not fully understand about what we are to eat and drink - and I am still researching this.


George

Dear George,

Here is what we are to eat and drink:

John 6:51--I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 7:37-38--On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him."

Matthew 5:6--Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.


You say you are unsure of the Scriptural witnesses about whether they ate meat before the flood, but really, is it that important? Isn't it enough to know that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?”(Mark 7:18-19). Isn't it enough to know that Paul said Let no man judge you in meat or drink? (Col. 2:16)

It is okay to look outside of Scripture for information like this. Scripture is not going to tell us everything about what people ate, how they dressed, what they did for entertainment, etc. Ray valued and respected the work of scientists, and made it clear that he believed in a very old earth and humans (or human-like creatures) before Adam. I haven't studied this at all, but a quick Google search will tell you that most scientists believe the evidence that points to meat consumption a very long time ago. Ray mentioned in one of his studies that one of the animals' Hebrew names--given by Adam--meant to devour. I couldn't find the transcript, and I don't remember what animal; I assume it was a bird of prey.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 24, 2016, 02:03:09 PM
Jesse -

Thank you for posting this; I appreciate this:


I do not fully understand about what we are to eat and drink - and I am still researching this.


George

Dear George,

Here is what we are to eat and drink:

John 6:51--I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 7:37-38--On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him."

Matthew 5:6--Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.


You say you are unsure of the Scriptural witnesses about whether they ate meat before the flood, but really, is it that important? Isn't it enough to know that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?”(Mark 7:18-19). Isn't it enough to know that Paul said Let no man judge you in meat or drink? (Col. 2:16)

It is okay to look outside of Scripture for information like this. Scripture is not going to tell us everything about what people ate, how they dressed, what they did for entertainment, etc. Ray valued and respected the work of scientists, and made it clear that he believed in a very old earth and humans (or human-like creatures) before Adam. I haven't studied this at all, but a quick Google search will tell you that most scientists believe the evidence that points to meat consumption a very long time ago. Ray mentioned in one of his studies that one of the animals' Hebrew names--given by Adam--meant to devour. I couldn't find the transcript, and I don't remember what animal; I assume it was a bird of prey.


I am fully aware of our spiritual food and drink, and have been since He dragged me from this world to Himself - and I have drunk and eaten this each and every day since He revealed Himself to me.

I used to believe that we could eat anything with prayer, and if it was poisoned, it would not harm us - but with all the GMO stuff and what they do to the meat, I am horrified - and hence my research into The Scriptures.

I am aware of the study you mention (and I have read it, and listened to the audios, several times) - and I am aware that Ray stated that there was death before Adam.

I am particularly interested in what mankind was instructed to eat.

I have not found any Scriptures before Noah, whereby mankind was instructed to eat any kind of meat.

It is important to me, if there was a difference between before the flood of Noah, and after.

We are instructed to question everything, and prove all things.

Kind Regards.

George

 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: indianabob on October 24, 2016, 03:08:15 PM
Hi Octoberose,

In Daniel the English word "meat" may be translated simply as "food" or the kings diet or dainties which could also be simply the fancy food that was prepared for royalty which would include ingredients that were not natural like sauces, gravies, lard and extra sweeteners. Daniel opted to eat plain, naturally grown vegetables with healthy ingredients good for a persons health. Also note that Daniel declined wine which the king afforded all those he favored and which by tradition was thought to be beneficial to keep a person contented. The point if one checks the original words is that "meat" is a general term for food and does not necessarily mean the flesh of animals as we use it today.


George brought up Daniel and the issue of eating meat. As it happens, I've been wanting to talk about food related things.
  My belief about Daniel is that he refused the kings meat not because there was is anything intrinsically wrong with eating meat, but because the meat was either  not prepared according to God's law or the meat was pork.   Daniel did not want to be defiled and God had let them eat meat as long as it followed His guidelines .
  What I want to ask is, do you see a correlation between diet and our spiritual health?  Some of us struggle with weight, some with health issues.  If God knows every hair on our heads, surely He also concerns Himself with our food. Surely nothing in our lives exisit outside of Him.
  Would snyone share their food journey, and how it relates to being  a follower of Christ?
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on October 25, 2016, 03:55:13 PM
I have cut back on a lot of the processed food and prefer taking the basic ingredients and making up my own meals. So much food these days has things in that I don't have a clue what it is so why eat it.

Been losing weight recently so eating better and less and more time doing exercise. I know it makes me feel better and more energy which is good but can't say I feel any spiritual difference in doing so.

I feel the being more disciplined and going without certain things makes me seek truth more but maybe that is more me. Certain things and not only food you do for comfort and take away the comfort you see things in a new light and a desire for the truth becomes more clear and you want more of that.

In saying all of that I still eat at times the things they say you shouldn't but less of it and less often.


Rhys
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lostANDfound on October 25, 2016, 07:11:35 PM
Thanks George!
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: sansmile on October 25, 2016, 10:25:08 PM
i cant believe what i am reading....Ray would say....forget the literal. We all know people that have lived their lives(especially in Scotland and Ireland) who have lived on bread dipped in dripping the fat of the cow) they have smoked, drank etc. It isnt about food of the land but spiritual meat...
If God lets u live into OLD age having ate all the banned foods?   why?  I am in no way saying. we shouldnt be aware of what we eat, but what it seems to me is, how our parents prepared food was according to where they lived, what money they had, their priorities.... Nowadays convenience foods are cheaper and more available  to all. God giveth and God taketh away, my parents are in their 80's their diet was fried food, so according to the modern day nutritionists...they should have died years ago?

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 25, 2016, 11:12:55 PM
i cant believe what i am reading....Ray would say....forget the literal. We all know people that have lived their lives(especially in Scotland and Ireland) who have lived on bread dipped in dripping the fat of the cow) they have smoked, drank etc. It isnt about food of the land but spiritual meat...
If God lets u live into OLD age having ate all the banned foods?   why?  I am in no way saying. we shouldnt be aware of what we eat, but what it seems to me is, how our parents prepared food was according to where they lived, what money they had, their priorities.... Nowadays convenience foods are cheaper and more available  to all. God giveth and God taketh away, my parents are in their 80's their diet was fried food, so according to the modern day nutritionists...they should have died years ago?

I have stayed out of this discussion but I have silently followed.

George mentioned fear as a motivating factor, "I am horrified" he exclaimed, which should be a red flag to all of us as God has not given us a spirit to fear again and perfect love casts out all fear. Indeed try the spirits! We ought to believe Jesus and what He said. If we cannot believe the walking talking living breathing Emannuel then who can we believe? Jesus said don't worry about what you will eat today or tomorrow. Jesse provided many great scriptures. Paul too objected to the fearing and worryng over foods.

You want a budding healthcare proffesional's opinion whom like you was given the holy spirit, I tell you this on my life with the love I have in my heart for you all are my family and with God as my witness I lie not: Eat all things in moderation, if you can, exercise and be as active as possible, if you can, but most importantly do not fear or worry for anything, even the food you eat, for your Father in heaven knows your needs and He has already determined the length of your days and the bounderies which you cannot go past. Don't be overly indulgent in anything! Foods included! Have peace, love God, rejoice, pray without ceasing and in all things giving thanks. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Let your light shine before all men. Do not quench the spirit. Love one another that all men may know you belong to Christ. Love God with all your heart and all your soul. Be kind to those who are evil to you and repay no one evil for evil but love your enemies as God does. Be imitators of Christ and the God of peace shall be with you all your days.

19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.
2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Indeed the kingdom of heaven is not food and drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the spirit.

Do not fear. None may take what belongs to God. He reigns.

Love to all those of the household of God.

Kindly,
Alex
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: indianabob on October 26, 2016, 11:26:08 AM
Thank you Alex,
Kindly received and appreciated. :)
Friend Indiana Bob
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 26, 2016, 11:52:55 PM
 I know. I know. Nothing physical can make you spiritual. That doesn't nullify the fact that we are living in physical bodies and they affect us. I agree with everything that Alex said- but truly unless I reign in what I'm eating it is Hard to keep everything in moderation. Modern food is made to overindulge in. High fructose corn syrup is addicting ! Additives  are addicting !  When I stay away from them I am healthier and when I am healthier I feel.... free. Sugar feeds cancer- especially if I was battling cancer would it not be prudent to stay away from sugar? Is that not wise?
 In Romans - 14 I think, the weak brother only eats vegetables.    The food given to idols was just not a big deal to Paul so eat away- but if you can't and if it is sin to you, then that's ok to not eat it.  ) But I'm enjoying a quart of green smoothie from the high speed blender to start my day and I'm telling you I feel better! I'm pretty sure the apostle Paul would approve.  :) )
 As far as Daniel goes, I really do believe the key to understanding Daniel is that the king's food would have defiled him, in his words. I think it's interesting that meat could mean rich foods, but nothing in the rich sauces were against the dietary laws of Daniels people. To be Defiled is about going against the law of God. For that reason I don't use Daniel as a blueprint on what to eat. And perhaps it was food given to idols and Daniel could not go there and that was part of the problem,  but I don't think it comes out and says that.
 1 Timothy 4:1-4 ESV   
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
 
 Notice that food made by God is good? How much of our food these days is made in a lab? How much of it is so adulturated that our bodies do not recognize it as food?

I keep thinking about being accountable to God for our actions and I think that has to include everything and that means food too. It is the most basic of needs but it says a lot about us. At least it says a lot about me. Someone reading this is anorexic and lives in that fear that Alex was talking about. I'm so so sorry for your pain.  Someone is bulimic and starves and feasts and purges. I believe when you come out of that God will have taught you so much and you will be able to look at your food with thanksgiving again. Someone, many someones, are overweight and sad. I have been there. I have struggled and lost weight and gained a little back. If God knows every hair on my head He surely knows this and it matters to Him because I matter.
 God's food, in moderation, with thanksgiving. I think that must be the answer.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 27, 2016, 12:17:00 AM
God's Elect are free from all food rules.

No one has any authority from God to make any food rules whatsoever.

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 27, 2016, 01:01:11 AM
I Corinthians 10
   
" All things to me are lawful, but all things are not profitable; all things to me are lawful, but all things do not build up."

Its not about rules .
 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 27, 2016, 01:17:49 AM
The Scriptures say in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

I have two questions:

1) Whatever your food rule is, what are your two witnesses in support?

2) What is your authority to teach others your food rules?  Two witnesses please.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 27, 2016, 02:45:04 AM
Where is the rules that are being taught ? I see no reason to be so threatened by a discussion .
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Brenda on October 27, 2016, 02:48:55 AM
I agree with Extol and some of the others here, we should set our minds and hearts on spiritual things for this is what GOD wants for us.  I have noticed in the past year or so that a lot of people on this forum are seeking out the carnal.  This is pretty disturbing. What is happening here.  This is my refuge!
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 27, 2016, 03:39:59 AM
I'm not sure why this is carnal, when the importance of the subject is the spiritual  -

Romans 14:20,21- Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat and drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 

I Corinthians 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself.  ***

Ephesians 5:18-20, And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs...

I John 2:16 For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride in possessions- is not from the Father is from the world.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own..

Romans 12:1  I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Galatians 5:16-26  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and your will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desire of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 

Romans 13:14  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Philippians 3:18-19  For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.  Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

I Corinthians, 10:31  So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

And that's just some of the verses in the new testament- I would be writing for long time if I included the old. God is not afraid of this subject- He is not upset by it, not surprised by it. He made us this way. Every dark thing shows up in the light.  There is something here for us to learn- at least for me there is. If it offends you and you think it is just not spiritual enough then leave this alone. But I think you're missing the point.



Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 27, 2016, 05:44:01 AM
octoberose -

Thank you for posting these very helpful Scriptures:

I'm not sure why this is carnal, when the importance of the subject is the spiritual  -

Romans 14:20,21- Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat and drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 

I Corinthians 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself.  ***

Ephesians 5:18-20, And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs...

I John 2:16 For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride in possessions- is not from the Father is from the world.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own..

Romans 12:1  I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Galatians 5:16-26  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and your will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desire of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 

Romans 13:14  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Philippians 3:18-19  For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.  Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

I Corinthians, 10:31  So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

And that's just some of the verses in the new testament- I would be writing for long time if I included the old. God is not afraid of this subject- He is not upset by it, not surprised by it. He made us this way. Every dark thing shows up in the light.  There is something here for us to learn- at least for me there is. If it offends you and you think it is just not spiritual enough then leave this alone. But I think you're missing the point.

Are all men and women living in physical bodies? Are we here on this Forum and on this site only to learn Spiritual Truths, and nothing about our physical well being?

Do we all need to breathe to live? Is breathing a physical necessity? Is there anything spiritual about breathing so we can have our being in our bodies?

Did Ray not say that he did not take good care of his body, and he hoped that others did a better job than he did? Is taking care of our bodies a spiritual or a natural physical matter?

Is smoking, and alcohol, and drug taking harmful to our bodies? Is there anything spiritual about these natural matters?

Is it appropriate to seek answers to the following questions:

1. Are there two or three Scriptural Witnesses to confirm that before Noah's flood, men, women, children, and all other living creatures ate meat?

2. If no creatures or mankind ate meat up to Noah's flood, is it better or worse for mankind (and members of His Elect) to be Vegans today?

3. If acidic foods are bad for our bodies, and alkaline foods (which are in the main, fruit, vegetables, berries, nuts and herbs) are good for our bodies, (as no disease can live in an alkaline environment) - should anyone eat meat (which is acidic)?

4. What (Old and / or) New Testament Scriptures confirm that mankind can now eat any meat from living creatures, since after Noah's flood God Commanded mankind to only eat disease inhibiting animals (and not disease promoting animals); or does Peter's vision about clean and unclean animals, refer both to eating any meat, and also to non-Israelites being granted Salvation by God Himself?

5. Should we be concerned by what is put into our foods today, including GMO, etc, (and I am sure that most of us have suffered the pain of food poisoning at least once in our lives) - or is being prayerfully thankful for our food the way Our Heavenly Father cleanses our food for us?
 
Thank you.

Kind Regards.

George

 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Doug on October 27, 2016, 09:13:59 AM
Hi Octoberose,

I do not think you or anyone here is trying to insist or establish food rules. Everyone is free to choose what they are going to eat and certainly would not judge what others eat. In the scheme of things that is not what we are striving for but to submit to God's will.

While I totally agree avoiding sugar, processed food, GMO, etc. is very helpful to good health it is also true many eat any and everything that we would consider harmful and thrive to an old age. For me and I expect others even food that is supposedly helpful can be very damaging. If these discussions can benefit some then they are useful.

Ray spoke about his diet trying to slow or beat his cancer. To me his was extreme with the amount of vitamins and herbs. However that was the path he took. Ultimately it is in God's hands which is a great comfort. To me it's not about extending life (as if we could) but just feeling as good as possible.

I think in many ways health issues keep us close to God so whatever we struggle with is ultimately a blessing.

I pray for everyone here, this is the place I find comfort.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 27, 2016, 11:10:55 AM
Dear George,

You are very sorely mistaken about your understanding of acidic and alkaline and how foods alter our bodies PH. To put it shortly, they dont. You lack very very basic understanding of how the body metabolizes food and how its then absorbed. As soon as food hits the stomach it enters a ph environement of roughly 2 and any of the food's own acidic or basic qualities are immediately obliterated in that very acidic stomach. From that point on it is turned into a chyme with the churning and mixing actions of the stomach and digestive enzymes break all food molecules down to their most basic anatomical and molecular structures where they are then absorbed by the junenum, duodenum, and illeum harmlessly. Onceinside the entercytes, many are further packaged and transported through the blood stream attached to chaperone proteins (such as fats and cholesterol transported in chylomicrons, vldl, ldl, ildl, hdl). The bloods PH is very highly regulated to a level of 7.4 which rarely if ever changes except under dire pathological conditions which have nothing to do with "acidic and alkalinic foods." Im talking things like renal failure or respiratory failure.


I dont mean to come off harsh but what you are doing is part of the problem on the internet. The spread of misinformation. If you want to talk about health and disease first understand the most basic of principles. Which you do not. Learn acid and base chemistry and understand biochemistry. Learn amino acids, carbohydrates, lipids, vitamins, and how these many various groups are affected by ph. To do that  this you will need at the very least a year of organic chemistry class to come to any satisfying level of understanding. Then learn all you did in the context of the machine that is the human body which regulates and processes everything you put into it. This requires thorough understanding of the molecular and cellular workings of the body. Meaning basic cell biology, molecular biology, genetic biology, etc... and then the larger systems and subjects such as oncology, hematology, nephrology, pulmonology etc...You can take courses on most of these at your local community college. Once you learn these basic things, then learn about disease processes and pathology but make sure you understand physiology first. Lastly, please do not believe everything you read on the internet. Go to your healthcare professional, whoever your personal doctor is, and speak to them about this subject. You will find that what you thought you knew, you really did not. Its why individuals commit their entire lives studying health and disease. Its not something you learn in the later decades of your life off the internet of all places. Theres lots of bad bad bad wrong out right decietful infornation out there especially on  health. Usually its tied to buying some miracle book on health sold by the website or the websites own "natural" products.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. its not true that no disease can live in alkaline condition. Thats absolute nonsense. If your body becomes too basic, YOU DIE! If your body becomes too acidic, YOU DIE too! Its why the body's blood ph is very tightly regulated at 7.4 and why no food is going to change that. It only changes when their is seriouse disease process at play such as renal failure or respiratory problems.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lareli on October 27, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
Is there a spiritual component to paying for and consuming tortured animals versus humanely raised animals?

I couldn't do the things that people do to factory farmed animals myself, so there's a spiritual component of hypocrisy for me to pay someone else to do the dirty work. Animals that are suffering from birth to death. I wonder what biological changes occur in an animal that is constantly stressed, afraid, and suffering. Could their suffering be transferred to the consumer on some spiritual level? I dunno.

Alex maybe you could help here. Do biological changes occur when someone is constantly stressed/afraid? Is it different for animals?


Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Terry on October 27, 2016, 07:18:18 PM
I don't care to much for doctors, mine is always trying to pump terrible drugs in me which I hate not to mention the side effects, I like herbal medicine, I told my Dr. if you really cared for my health you wouldn't be pushing  these horrible drugs on me,
I had one Dr. tell me if I was going to take that snake oil find another Dr. wow. so I did.
Terry

PS JFK love your new profile pic
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Terry on October 27, 2016, 07:42:02 PM
I should have been a little clearer its not the Dr. I dislike its the drugs, my Dr. put me on BP meds which helped a little but side effects was fluid in my legs and pain in my legs so he then give more pills for side effects
Terry
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 27, 2016, 07:55:10 PM
I don't care to much for doctors, mine is always trying to pump terrible drugs in me which I hate not to mention the side effects, I like herbal medicine, I told my Dr. if you really cared for my health you wouldn't be pushing  these horrible drugs on me,
I had one Dr. tell me if I was going to take that snake oil find another Dr. wow. so I did.
Terry

PS JFK love your new profile pic

Thanks Terry.  I have always liked John Wayne.  I chose Rooster Cogburn because of the one eye.  Reminds me of the verse that says if your eye is a cause of sin then pluck it out.  I feel like an old one-eyed cowboy that God has stomped on my whole life.  But He has so far always stood me up and been with me.

Speaking of doctors, I am right now in a hospital emergency room with my mother.  She is having problems and they are running a bunch of tests to find out what is wrong.

I do not feel like John Wayne right now.  I am not in control.  Worried about my mom.  God controls all things. His will be done.  I and my mom need His strength and care.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Terry on October 27, 2016, 07:55:21 PM
Thank you Octoberose for these Scriptures i'm going to put them on my mirror in bathroom and fridge they stood out to me just what I needed

I John 2:16 For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and the pride in possessions- is not from the Father is from the world.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Terry
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Terry on October 27, 2016, 08:04:09 PM
God bless you Rooster Cogburn and your Mom hope she gets well real soon, I always liked your straight forward style and the Humor kind of reminds me of John Wayne
Terry
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 27, 2016, 08:12:03 PM
Is there a spiritual component to paying for and consuming tortured animals versus humanely raised animals?

I couldn't do the things that people do to factory farmed animals myself, so there's a spiritual component of hypocrisy for me to pay someone else to do the dirty work. Animals that are suffering from birth to death. I wonder what biological changes occur in an animal that is constantly stressed, afraid, and suffering. Could their suffering be transferred to the consumer on some spiritual level? I dunno.

Alex maybe you could help here. Do biological changes ocacur when someone is constantly stressed/afraid? Is it different for animals?

Hi Largeli,

Without going into crazy detail, in short, biological changes do occur. You feel those changes when you are afraid and stressed.

There are many changes that occur from central nervous (increased sympathetic tone) and endocrine (hormonal, i.e. increased cortisol release, glucagon etc..) which vastly alter the physiology of the organism. If the stress does not subside, with time, prolonged periods ranging from months to years, pathological and irreversible damage can occur to the organ systems and be detrimental ultimately to the organism. Its why people that are always stressed have increased blood pressure and increased risk for heart attacks, etc... Obviously there are infinitely more risks for those disease states but chronic stress can compound existing risk factors and be the 'straw that broke the camels back so to speak.'

Now the big question is really whether you can 'eat this stress.'

In short, no. Again, without going into too much detail, cooking food denatures enzymes and hormones (which are proteins like cortisol) and render them biologicaly inert. Once they enter your stomach they are further obliterated by the acidic environemt and the follow digestive enzymes which break apart these enzymes and hormones into their most basic inactive parts like monosacharides, lipids, and amino acids.

There are RARE exceptions like the cause behind 'mad cow disease' which turns out to be a misfolded protein that causes other proteins of the same type to misfold creating a perpetual chain of increasingly larger missfolded proetien mass that eventually crowds out and destroys the surrounding tissue. This large group is so tightly folded and dysfunctional that it is resistant to temperatures above normal cooking ranges so it doesn't get destroyed in the cooking process and is resistant to extremely acidic environments like your stomach so it can be ingested and wreak havoc on a person. But when was the last time you heard of someone contracting this extremely rare disease? I think in humans they call it the jacob kilndfelt disease or something. Don't quote me on the spelling. Now this condition itself is not know well how it originally develops to be contracted later but its believed to be due to an inherited mutation in some protein in the brain or due to a denovo mutation which occurs in the individual.

Dear John,

Very sorry about your situation. Know that you and your mother are in my prayers. We can't change His mind but you never know what He has planned. God willing the doctors will figure out what is wrong so they can treat her.

Please keep me up to date if you can!

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 27, 2016, 09:30:10 PM
John, your mom is blessed to have you there with her, being her advocate and giving her the care she needs. Praying that answers will come and health will be restored if God wills it.  I've never 'heard' you so rattled. I'm sorry - I know it's hard.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: octoberose on October 27, 2016, 10:13:48 PM
I'm glad this post was helpful to someone.

I don't mean to imply that good health, or a strong body equals spiritual health or indicates 'salvation'. Of course not.  Our bodies could be our own idol. We could think that we are keeping ourselves alive and well, and not the will of God. Human beings could use anything in the world as an idol and have (golden calf anyone?). We are so corrupt when left to our own devices.
 However,
when I have a migraine and it's because I ate something that I know can be a trigger, who am I hurting? I'm hurting not just myself but those who have to take care of me or who I cannot help because I'm at home sick in bed. It's happened many times. And I'm left with wondering what in the world is wrong with me.
 Loving ourselves is part of what we're told to do and I think it's not a bad thing to consider what that means for each of us.
"In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church - for we are members of his body." (Ephesians 5:28-30)   So there we are, instruction to feed and care for our own bodies. The physical showing us the way to the spiritual.

 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 27, 2016, 11:24:37 PM
Dear All,

It has come to my attention that my posts, especially my reply to george on this page, where offensive and rude.

To George, I am deeply sorry, I meant no offense what so ever. What I said I said in love. If you can believe that... The internet makes it hard to get those feelings across, especially when what you are writing is meant to correct and educate. Its a little easier when we all speak the same language as with scripture but in medicine and all the science involved, its hard, its like i'm speaking another language that even I don't know how to communicate at times.

This is why I was hesitant to join this discussion. It appears I should not participate in these discussions regarding disease, health, nutrition, medicine, vaccines, etc... any longer. I have not figured out a way to communicate what I've learned without it either sounding alien or come off as condescending and arrogant.

Again, George, you know my heart is filled with a deep sincere love for you and I'm so sorry if I hurt you. I am ashamed if that is the case. I can see in my own post where my words may have wounded and I should have been softer, slower, more compassionate, or simply said nothing at all. I think I tried to say too much in one post that could have been broken down into smaller, nicer, slower pieces.

I am making this apology public to anyone else who felt offended by my post. I am sorry to you as well. Know that I care and love you all and my intention was never to wound. I regret how I responded. I just don't know how to deal with the misinformation and the disparity of knowledge that exists in regards to these subjects and the various levels of understanding that everyday folks acquire from their own studies. As you can see I have wrestled with this issue before. I see similar discussions on my facebook page all the time between friends but I stay out of it. I should have done likewise here. I'm still learning.. i'll figure this out God willing. Worst comes to worst i'll just stay out of these discussions. If you ever need my opinion, it'll be there for you.

Sincerely,
Alex
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lostANDfound on October 28, 2016, 12:44:25 AM
It's nice to see you owning your mistakes like that Alex. It shows some maturity.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 28, 2016, 01:32:39 AM
Rose, of course there is a spiritual element to everything.  But put two people together who share the same "diet" and one of them may be living in humility while the other is exuding the "pride of life".  There's nothing "spiritual" about the food itself. 

One person's anecdote may be poison to the next person.  No aspersions cast at our cast of characters.   ;D

Alex, sometimes it takes a bit of "forcefulness" to cut through misinformation.  If we are going to hear from "other sides", then I certainly don't want "alternative/internet nutritionists" to be the only voices heard--especially since they often contradict each other.  I, for one, want to hear from you when these issues crop up, and if you think you need to watch your tone, then do so.

For my part, I'm with Extol. 

 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lostANDfound on October 28, 2016, 02:03:47 AM
Some outsiders might describe us here on the forum as a group of people who form an "alternative" religion which we discovered on the internet and which is highly opposed to what the skilled, trained, practiced professionals teach.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Doug on October 28, 2016, 08:16:50 AM
Hi Alex,

I do not believe you were offensive. It seems to me you are passionate about sharing and helping others, that's a good thing. For me please continue to share your knowledge, it hurts no one to be challenged in their beliefs.

I know Ray spoke of trying to get his body to an alkaline state but found it difficult if not impossible for him. He got me interested in the subject but I had given up on the idea because one I could not do it and was a bit skeptical it was any value. Your post helped me, thank you!

Doug
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 28, 2016, 04:45:44 PM
Some outsiders might describe us here on the forum as a group of people who form an "alternative" religion which we discovered on the internet and which is highly opposed to what the skilled, trained, practiced professionals teach.  Just a thought.

I barely read the thread, and only did so much as I did because it's kinda my job.  I don't know who said what publicly or privately (to Alex).  After 8 years, I have a bit of background in how these discussions pan out.  ALL I said was, "If we are going to hear from "other sides", then I certainly don't want "alternative/internet nutritionists" to be the only voices heard--especially since they often contradict each other."  IF--ONLY.  Big IF.  But IF, then not ONLY. 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: indianabob on October 29, 2016, 12:20:20 AM
Dear friend Alex,

Please DO NOT let unfounded criticism of your approach to explanations deter you from participating in discussions of a medical nature. Even doctors learn by stepping out in faith, fearing nothing.
This is a spiritual forum and one of the very necessary lessons we are here to learn is to get rid of an overly sensitive nature or a thin skin. Jesus was the most loving man of all and he did the job he was called to do with his apostles WITHOUT detailed explanation before every move. Jesus said follow me and trust me to lead you according to Father God's will. So if we are here on the forum for our own benefit and spiritual growth as well as in obedience to God then we need to be more circumspect about our tender feelings. If a sports coach took the time to check the sensitive opinions of each player before issuing his instructions that coach would be a failure.
I have to suppose that your approach is one that you will find necessary and expedient in your chosen field. A physician cannot explain the reasons for his advice to every patient, partly because when the patient repeated what he thought the doctor told him he would get it wrong most of the time. I have never been a doctor, but I have been a patient many times and served as counselor to relatives many times over and I have somewhat of an understanding of these matters.
I know that you are very busy and it is expected that your replies may be hurried and still be accurate. So if you must, just apologize for any tender feelings in your first sentence and in the last sentence and then let fly with whatever needs to be said and let everyone's feelings fall where they may.

To those who's feelings may be hurt; please understand that we love you sincerely and please wait a day or two before complaining that someone spoke/wrote too candidly and honestly for your sensibilities. ;D

Ole Indiana bob age 81, married to one woman for 55 years, reared two boys and two girls all of whom still greet me with a hug and a kiss and speak to me about any and every subject and who used to have a reactive temper that God and my patient wife have moderated quite a bit over the years.

Kindly offered in Christian love  :)
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 29, 2016, 05:28:50 AM
Alex -

Dear All,

It has come to my attention that my posts, especially my reply to george on this page, where offensive and rude.

To George, I am deeply sorry, I meant no offense what so ever. What I said I said in love. If you can believe that... The internet makes it hard to get those feelings across, especially when what you are writing is meant to correct and educate. Its a little easier when we all speak the same language as with scripture but in medicine and all the science involved, its hard, its like i'm speaking another language that even I don't know how to communicate at times.

This is why I was hesitant to join this discussion. It appears I should not participate in these discussions regarding disease, health, nutrition, medicine, vaccines, etc... any longer. I have not figured out a way to communicate what I've learned without it either sounding alien or come off as condescending and arrogant.

Again, George, you know my heart is filled with a deep sincere love for you and I'm so sorry if I hurt you. I am ashamed if that is the case. I can see in my own post where my words may have wounded and I should have been softer, slower, more compassionate, or simply said nothing at all. I think I tried to say too much in one post that could have been broken down into smaller, nicer, slower pieces.

I am making this apology public to anyone else who felt offended by my post. I am sorry to you as well. Know that I care and love you all and my intention was never to wound. I regret how I responded. I just don't know how to deal with the misinformation and the disparity of knowledge that exists in regards to these subjects and the various levels of understanding that everyday folks acquire from their own studies. As you can see I have wrestled with this issue before. I see similar discussions on my facebook page all the time between friends but I stay out of it. I should have done likewise here. I'm still learning.. i'll figure this out God willing. Worst comes to worst i'll just stay out of these discussions. If you ever need my opinion, it'll be there for you.

Sincerely,
Alex

There is no need to apologise, as I know fully aware that what you provided was out of love.

I know that you were very careful in what you wrote.

I have not had a chance to fully digest what you said - but I will.

Thank you for your support and concern.

I always appreciate your input and posts.

Kind Regards.

George
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lostANDfound on October 29, 2016, 02:28:48 PM
For the record, I have no idea who said what to Alex privately to make him feel that a huge apology was necessary, and I had no part in it.  I was simply commenting that I appreciate it when people apologize if they feel they have made a mistake.  It's something that I really value and strive to do myself.  And again I say, it shows maturity when we can do this.


James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 29, 2016, 04:17:12 PM
George, I am relieved that you were not offended or hurt by my post. It puts my heart at ease. The last thing I want is to hurt anyone, especially with my understanding. Knowledge should not be a weapon to hurt others. There is enough suffering and pain in this world as we all walk through our experience of evil. All I have, I have received from God. My walk in life may be different than yours but it doesn't change who I am. I am nothing more than your brother in Christ first and always.

I have received much good advice from everyone on how to proceed in this matter. I see that many people value my opinion from the knowledge that God has seen fit I should receive from these earthly and worldy instructors.

I am grateful that you all are understanding and patient and willing to hear me out though I am but one voice in a sea of confusion and deception when it comes to all things health and science related.

If I speak something that is contrary to what you learned in your personal studies on these subjects know that it is not "big pharma" or "GMO" talking to you but your brother in Christ. By the grace of our Lord, I strive to be a physician first to the family and household of God, and then to his future children--I serve no one but the Lord Jesus Christ.

Medicine, health, disease, is such a personal topic. It brings many of us feelings of refreshing but also much sorrow and pain. It is only human to want to understand this monstrosity of a subject in all its complexity and to control it. Fortunately, we of all know that, the one who is in control is God Almighty and not us. None of us can stay the hand of death or disease. Knowledge cannot save and as the saying goes, "Physician, heal thyself." Even if someone knew it all, even if they were right, they will still die unless God Almighty make His appearing again soon. So rest in Him. Find health where you can. Much health is found in peace and joy in God. Perhaps the most important health is found in Him. The health of a peaceful and restful spirit. Our bodies will perish. As paul said, "even though outward man perish, inwardly we are renewed daily."

I pray everyday for His appearing. Sometimes, I weep and beg for His appearing because I am so tired of this world and all its suffering. Not simply for my own suffering but for the creations. I see how awful humanity is to itself. I see how awful disease and suffering is around the world. Sometimes tears are the only thing i can find in the face of such pain and suffering. Despite everything I know and have been given.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 29, 2016, 07:20:29 PM
John, your mom is blessed to have you there with her, being her advocate and giving her the care she needs. Praying that answers will come and health will be restored if God wills it.  I've never 'heard' you so rattled. I'm sorry - I know it's hard.

Rattled?  I do not think so Rose.  I have emotions but being rattled is not is not something I do.  Maybe the closest to rattling I recall is about 30 years ago my wife telling me about her affair.  Then the worse was losing my two sons in the divorce.  I considered shooting her, her lover, her lawyer, the judge, and my lawyer, and taking my two sons with me to the wild country.  But it was about 100 years too late for that much fun so I decided to stay unrattled and be civilized.

The main reason I do not get rattled is because I worship the One True God, the Power behind all things.  He is always with me.  We are always in contact.  He always answers my prayers because I only pray the one prayer He ever answers; Father, your will be done.  Works every time.

When I stand on the sands of the sea, and look behind me, I see where He has blessed me and protected me and has guided me in all things.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 29, 2016, 07:36:56 PM
Hi Alex, 

You asked about my mom.  The last three days she has been in the hospital.  Yesterday, she was near death.  The doctors could not rouse her.  The doctors and specialists gave her every type of test they could think of.  All the tests came back negative.  They could not determine the underlying cause of her problems.

The good news is today she is coming back to her old self and showing great recovery.  My sister and I are taking turns being with her.  The doctors determined she had a TIA or mini-stroke.  The effects seem to be short term.

Better you than me becoming a doctor.  I hate hospitals and being around sick people.  Jesus had the best idea.  Heal everybody.  Thanks for asking about my mom.

John
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 29, 2016, 08:26:44 PM
Alex,

Never regret speaking the truth about anything.  Remember Jesus saying that the truth will set us free.  Also, recall the motto of this website, "Exposing Those Who Contradict".

Statements have been made in this thread that do not agree with Scripture.  That they did not eat meat before the flood.  Yet we have Adam's son Abel who was a Shepherd.  He sacrificed the best of his flock to God Who accepted his sacrifice.  So, did Abel raise his sheep as pets.?  Or did he eat their wool?  Or, is it possible, that he killed the sheep he raised and ate their meat to feed himself and others?  Which is what shepherds do.

But the best scriptural proof that it is O.K. to eat meat is that Jesus ate meat.  The best meat.  Good red beef meat.

In Genesis 18, Yahweh  (Jesus) met with Abraham under the oak trees of Mamre.  Abraham fed Jesus a meal of beef, bread, and some kind of cheese or butter dish (animal byproducts).

Abraham not only fed Him the unpardonable beef, but it was young tender beef or veal.

Just think of that.  Mean old Abraham may have taken the young calf from its mother.  Mother cow may have known the baby was taken to be eaten.

The Scriptures do not indicate that Yahweh spit the beef out and upbraided Abraham for feeding Him meat.  Looks like Jesus scarfed all the food down without complaint.

So if Jesus ate red meat, how can it ever be wrong for us to eat red meat?  A question for all the scriptural scholars out there.

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 30, 2016, 02:51:28 AM
Alex -

Very Well Put:

George, I am relieved that you were not offended or hurt by my post. It puts my heart at ease. The last thing I want is to hurt anyone, especially with my understanding. Knowledge should not be a weapon to hurt others. There is enough suffering and pain in this world as we all walk through our experience of evil. All I have, I have received from God. My walk in life may be different than yours but it doesn't change who I am. I am nothing more than your brother in Christ first and always.

I have received much good advice from everyone on how to proceed in this matter. I see that many people value my opinion from the knowledge that God has seen fit I should receive from these earthly and worldy instructors.

I am grateful that you all are understanding and patient and willing to hear me out though I am but one voice in a sea of confusion and deception when it comes to all things health and science related.

If I speak something that is contrary to what you learned in your personal studies on these subjects know that it is not "big pharma" or "GMO" talking to you but your brother in Christ. By the grace of our Lord, I strive to be a physician first to the family and household of God, and then to his future children--I serve no one but the Lord Jesus Christ.

Medicine, health, disease, is such a personal topic. It brings many of us feelings of refreshing but also much sorrow and pain. It is only human to want to understand this monstrosity of a subject in all its complexity and to control it. Fortunately, we of all know that, the one who is in control is God Almighty and not us. None of us can stay the hand of death or disease. Knowledge cannot save and as the saying goes, "Physician, heal thyself." Even if someone knew it all, even if they were right, they will still die unless God Almighty make His appearing again soon. So rest in Him. Find health where you can. Much health is found in peace and joy in God. Perhaps the most important health is found in Him. The health of a peaceful and restful spirit. Our bodies will perish. As paul said, "even though outward man perish, inwardly we are renewed daily."

I pray everyday for His appearing. Sometimes, I weep and beg for His appearing because I am so tired of this world and all its suffering. Not simply for my own suffering but for the creations. I see how awful humanity is to itself. I see how awful disease and suffering is around the world. Sometimes tears are the only thing i can find in the face of such pain and suffering. Despite everything I know and have been given.

God bless,
Alex

I agree wholeheartedly with what you have 'spoken' above from your heart and mind.

These words you have 'spoken' above could easily have been posted by many others here on this Forum, including myself.

I am very grateful that you have patiently with love 'spoken' these words to all of us, including yourself.

I agree that we must all be on our guard - as our enemy indeed is a deceiver, and a liar and attacks our (hearts) and minds - and it is very difficult to determine what is false and what is true.

I have been with one of my younger brothers for the last two days, as it took a long time for him to be properly diagnosed with pneumonia, and although he is a very strong man physically and very strong willed, his strength has been zapped, and he currently has a very dry throat due to the very strong antibiotics given given, causing him to have extreme difficulty in drinking and eating, and sleeping. I was amazed how many times he had to go and see Doctors and the Emergency Department before getting the correct treatment; and even then, some nurses did not do their jobs correctly - and he observed that many appeared not to care, even ignoring him, when he simply asked for more water.

Very Kind Regards.

George
 
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 30, 2016, 03:10:28 AM
John -

Hi Alex, 

You asked about my mom.  The last three days she has been in the hospital.  Yesterday, she was near death.  The doctors could not rouse her.  The doctors and specialists gave her every type of test they could think of.  All the tests came back negative.  They could not determine the underlying cause of her problems.

The good news is today she is coming back to her old self and showing great recovery.  My sister and I are taking turns being with her.  The doctors determined she had a TIA or mini-stroke.  The effects seem to be short term.

Better you than me becoming a doctor.  I hate hospitals and being around sick people.  Jesus had the best idea.  Heal everybody.  Thanks for asking about my mom.

John

I too am praying and trusting Our Heavenly Father that His Will Be Done for your mother and your family.

May He Bless you all.

Very Kind Regards.

George
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 30, 2016, 04:00:50 AM
John -

Thank you for Posting this:

Alex,

Never regret speaking the truth about anything.  Remember Jesus saying that the truth will set us free.  Also, recall the motto of this website, "Exposing Those Who Contradict".

Statements have been made in this thread that do not agree with Scripture.  That they did not eat meat before the flood.  Yet we have Adam's son Abel who was a Shepherd.  He sacrificed the best of his flock to God Who accepted his sacrifice.  So, did Abel raise his sheep as pets.?  Or did he eat their wool?  Or, is it possible, that he killed the sheep he raised and ate their meat to feed himself and others?  Which is what shepherds do.

But the best scriptural proof that it is O.K. to eat meat is that Jesus ate meat.  The best meat.  Good red beef meat.

In Genesis 18, Yahweh  (Jesus) met with Abraham under the oak trees of Mamre.  Abraham fed Jesus a meal of beef, bread, and some kind of cheese or butter dish (animal byproducts).

Abraham not only fed Him the unpardonable beef, but it was young tender beef or veal.

Just think of that.  Mean old Abraham may have taken the young calf from its mother.  Mother cow may have known the baby was taken to be eaten.

The Scriptures do not indicate that Yahweh spit the beef out and upbraided Abraham for feeding Him meat.  Looks like Jesus scarfed all the food down without complaint.

So if Jesus ate red meat, how can it ever be wrong for us to eat red meat?  A question for all the scriptural scholars out there.

I know that Abraham served meat, and meat was eaten - and I know that Cain was a shepherd. I am seeking His Understanding from His Revealed Knowledge about His Wisdom on what is acceptable for us to eat; as He is Our Teacher.

You know full well, that when you actually know a certain Truth, you know you know, and there is nothing that can shake that Truth from you.

I am not certain anymore on what we should eat, for two reasons. Firstly, the way our food is grown (both animal based and plant based), in that we really do not know what we are eating with all that is put in our food to preserve it, etc. Secondly, the growing number of mankind becoming Vegans because of the way our animals, fish and chickens / birds are treated and what they are injected with.

It may be clear to you and others on the Forum on what is acceptable for us to drink and eat, but I am researching this, as it deeply concerns me.

As I said, I used to accept and ate in prayerful thanksgiving in His Faith trusting that He would cleanse all that I drank and ate if it was poisoned or contaminated, and this included meat and fish, and eggs and dairy products.

For the record, I am not offended by anything that has been posted on this topic.

By way of a very silly comparison, I would not drink water that has been affected by whatever chemicals or whatever they put in when 'fracking' for oil, as it is far from clear and looks disgusting; and without being political, I am in full agreement, with the North Dakota native Americans that 'water is life' as there is a very high likelihood that the oil pipe may burst and contaminate their water.

And as I said, I know the spiritual aspects - but I am researching what is good and acceptable for our physical bodies, which affect our physical health and our (hearts and) minds.

What I know as Truth I 'drink and eat' as that is the way I understand it becomes a part of me (permanently).

What I am not certain about, I 'park' until He Confirms The Truth of the matter.

If He Confirms The Truth of this particular matter to me early, all well and good - otherwise, I will continue to 'seek His Face' until He Reveals His Truth to me personally.

Very Kind Regards.

George

 

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 30, 2016, 04:53:42 AM
George, 

May God guide your search for the Truth.

John
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on October 30, 2016, 06:52:36 AM
John -

George, 

May God guide your search for the Truth.

John

Thank you.

I am sure He will in His Own Time.

May He Graciously Grant your mother a full recovery and a very long life.

I understand your pain that you suffered - and May He (if He has not already) build your character to be Perfect (as He is Perfect) so that you are 'Well Able' to take each and every attack and knock, full frontal, and still stand strong in Him.
 
Very Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 30, 2016, 01:42:42 PM
Amen. Amen!
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on December 06, 2016, 12:23:01 PM
John -

I agree with what you have stated below, regarding the segments I have bolded:

Alex,

Never regret speaking the truth about anything.  Remember Jesus saying that the truth will set us free.  Also, recall the motto of this website, "Exposing Those Who Contradict".

Statements have been made in this thread that do not agree with Scripture.
  That they did not eat meat before the flood.  Yet we have Adam's son Abel who was a Shepherd.  He sacrificed the best of his flock to God Who accepted his sacrifice.  So, did Abel raise his sheep as pets.?  Or did he eat their wool?  Or, is it possible, that he killed the sheep he raised and ate their meat to feed himself and others?  Which is what shepherds do.

But the best scriptural proof that it is O.K. to eat meat is that Jesus ate meat.  The best meat.  Good red beef meat.

In Genesis 18, Yahweh  (Jesus) met with Abraham under the oak trees of Mamre.  Abraham fed Jesus a meal of beef, bread, and some kind of cheese or butter dish (animal byproducts).

Abraham not only fed Him the unpardonable beef, but it was young tender beef or veal.

Just think of that.  Mean old Abraham may have taken the young calf from its mother.  Mother cow may have known the baby was taken to be eaten.

The Scriptures do not indicate that Yahweh spit the beef out and upbraided Abraham for feeding Him meat.  Looks like Jesus scarfed all the food down without complaint.

So if Jesus ate red meat, how can it ever be wrong for us to eat red meat?  A question for all the scriptural scholars out there.


The Scripture you quoted from Genesis 18 is after the flood of Noah, and not before.

The issue I have is this, certainly Abel was a Shepherd, and did indeed offer the best of his Flock to YahWeh - but, did YahWeh Command mankind to eat the meat of any animal before the flood? I have searched and researched, and I cannot find any Commandment from YahWeh that mankind before the flood were to eat the meat of animals, or for animals to eat the meat of other animals - as ALL were Commanded to eat of the green of the land (plants, berries, vegetables, fruit, nuts, etc).

And the reason I have an issue with this, is that we must not assume anything, and have at least two Scriptural Witnesses to prove any Truth in The Holy Scriptures.

I do not want to be a pain and go on and on - but, I at least, find it difficult to accept that animals and mankind ate the meat of animals, birds, fish, or bugs before the flood; otherwise, why did YahWeh after Noah's flood state that mankind can eat the flesh of animals etc, if mankind already did eat the flesh of animals:
 
Genesis 9:3 (KJV):
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Perhaps, this was YahWeh reasserting an earlier Commandment to eat the flesh of living animals / birds / fish / bugs - and if so, how can YahWeh reassert something if there is only an assumption that mankind and animals already ate the flesh of animals / birds / fish / bugs?
 
Maybe it is just me, but I need a couple of Holy Scriptures before I will accept any of His Truths.

Warmest Regards.

George

Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: Musterseed on December 06, 2016, 03:04:16 PM
Well now, what a wonderful discussion. We are being taught today about many things. Food, Medicine, Forgiveness, Compassion, Humility, Patience, and mostly Love.
The Lord is teaching us how to grow, to not be so easily offended, how to walk in Our brethrens shoes and as His children, to play nice. I think we make Our Lord proud with our learning abilities and our true feelings for one another. We lift each other up.Most playgrounds are full of bullies. We are Blessed to have our very own secret playground. What a wonderful gift from Our Father. Thank you Lord. John, it's nice to hear your mom is feeling better, George, I hope your brother gets well.
I believe the health care system everywhere is stressed to the max and some lose compassion or administers just tie their hands. I worked in a hospital for thirty years, and I avoid them as much as possible.Alex , I love reading your posts, they keep my old brain focused and challenged and isn't that what we are supposed to do, if we all agreed on everything,we would be like boring sheep 🐑 hehe.Guess what, I quit smoking. Five months now. I was a pack a day smoker for over thirty years and I prayed to God to please help me quit, I was so sick of its slavery. Two months later, not only did I quit but my husband also, cold turkey. Ahh the Lord is so good and I'm pretty sure he's always looking into the school window to see how His students are doing. He just says"Follow Me"
And we drop everything and run to Him.   In Christ Our Lord, 🙏🏼 Amen.          Pamela

BTW.  I believe New Jerusalem will be vegetarian, no more slaughter of animals. Just my Hope.
Title: Re: Daniel, veganism and meat
Post by: cheekie3 on December 06, 2016, 04:06:45 PM
Pamela -

Well Presented:

Well now, what a wonderful discussion. We are being taught today about many things. Food, Medicine, Forgiveness, Compassion, Humility, Patience, and mostly Love.
The Lord is teaching us how to grow, to not be so easily offended, how to walk in Our brethrens shoes and as His children, to play nice. I think we make Our Lord proud with our learning abilities and our true feelings for one another. We lift each other up.Most playgrounds are full of bullies. We are Blessed to have our very own secret playground. What a wonderful gift from Our Father. Thank you Lord. John, it's nice to hear your mom is feeling better, George, I hope your brother gets well.
I believe the health care system everywhere is stressed to the max and some lose compassion or administers just tie their hands. I worked in a hospital for thirty years, and I avoid them as much as possible.Alex , I love reading your posts, they keep my old brain focused and challenged and isn't that what we are supposed to do, if we all agreed on everything,we would be like boring sheep 🐑 hehe.Guess what, I quit smoking. Five months now. I was a pack a day smoker for over thirty years and I prayed to God to please help me quit, I was so sick of its slavery. Two months later, not only did I quit but my husband also, cold turkey. Ahh the Lord is so good and I'm pretty sure he's always looking into the school window to see how His students are doing. He just says"Follow Me"
And we drop everything and run to Him.   In Christ Our Lord, 🙏🏼 Amen.          Pamela

BTW.  I believe New Jerusalem will be vegetarian, no more slaughter of animals. Just my Hope.

And I too in The New Jerusalem desire all His Creatures to live in Love, Joy and Peace with each other.

My brother has got better - thank you - and is still not yet 100% back to his normal self.

Congratulations to both your husband and you, for overcoming the desire to keep on 'smoking'.

Warmest Regards.

George