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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: cheekie3 on October 10, 2017, 03:12:44 AM
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All -
I love this passage of The New Testament Scriptures, as it is full of the riches of His Wisdom:
John 8: Amplified Bible (AMP)
12 Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, “[a]I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 Then the Pharisees told Him, “You are testifying on Your own behalf; Your testimony is not valid.” 14 Jesus replied, “Even if I do testify on My own behalf, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to human standards [just by what you see]. I do not judge anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true and My decision is right; for I am not alone [in making it], but I and the Father who sent Me [make the same judgment]. 17 Even in your own law it is written that the testimony of two persons is true [valid and admissible]. 18 I am One [of the Two] who testifies about Myself, and My Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 Then the Pharisees said to Him, “Where is this Father of Yours?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 Jesus said these things in the treasury, as He taught in the temple [courtyard]; and no one seized Him, because His time had not yet come.
21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were asking [among themselves], “Will He kill Himself? Is that why He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 That is why I told you that you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One [I claim to be], you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to Him, “Who are You [anyway]?” Jesus replied, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to say and judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I say to the world [only] the things that I have heard from Him.” 27 They did not realize [or have the spiritual insight to understand] that He was speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man [on the cross], you will know then [without any doubt] that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own authority, but I say these things just as My Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is [always] with Me; He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” 30 As He said these things, [c]many believed in Him.
31 So Jesus was saying to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word [continually obeying My teachings and living in accordance with them, then] you are truly My disciples. 32 And you will know the truth [regarding salvation], and the truth will set you free [from the penalty of sin].” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone. [d]What do You mean by saying, ‘You will be set free’?”
34 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, everyone who practices sin habitually is a slave of sin. 35 Now the slave does not remain in a household forever; the son [of the master] does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, then you are unquestionably free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you plan to kill Me, because My word has no place [to grow] in you [and it makes no change in your heart]. 38 I tell the things that I have seen at My Father’s side [in His very presence]; so you also do the things that you heard from your father.”
39 They answered, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are [truly] Abraham’s children, then do the works of Abraham and follow his example. 40 But as it is, you want to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted. 41 You are doing the works of your [own] father.” They said to Him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one [spiritual] Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father [but He is not], you would love and recognize Me, for I came from God [out of His very presence] and have arrived here. For I have not even come on My own initiative [as self-appointed], but He [is the One who] sent Me. 43 Why do you misunderstand what I am saying? It is because [your spiritual ears are deaf and] you are unable to hear [the truth of] My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and it is your will to practice the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and half-truths. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me [and continue in your unbelief]. 46 Which one of you [has proof and] convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 Whoever is of God and belongs to Him hears [the truth of] God’s words; for this reason you do not hear them: because you are not of God and you are not in fellowship with Him.”
48 The Jews answered Him, “Are we not right when we say You are a [e]Samaritan and [that You] have a demon [and are under its power]?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon. On the contrary, I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 However, I am not seeking glory for Myself. There is One who seeks [glory for Me] and judges [those who dishonor Me]. 51 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, if anyone keeps My word [by living in accordance with My message] he will indeed never, ever see and experience [f]death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon [and are under its power]. Abraham died, and also the prophets; yet You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never, ever taste of death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too! Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is [worth] nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 Yet you do not know Him, but I know Him fully. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day (My incarnation). [g]He saw it and was delighted.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not even fifty years old, and You [claim to] have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, [h]I Am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus concealed Himself and left the temple.
Warmest Regards.
George
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George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.
Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?
Indiana Bob
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Indiana Bob -
Regarding your questions below:
George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.
Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?
Indiana Bob
I believe Ray has a lot of substance about your questions, on these two papers, on the BT site:
https://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htm
https://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm
This has been discussed many times on this Forum; and there are differences of understanding among us, with regards what Ray taught about The Father and His Son.
I understand that Ray taught that Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father; who created all things through His Beloved Son - who is the beginning of all creation.
Please note the following Scriptures:
"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in My Father's Name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25).
"And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it..." (John 17:26).
"I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me." (John 17:6).
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name..." (John 17:12).
"I am come in My Father's Name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive..." (John 5:43).
Psalm 2:2- "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] and against His Anointed, saying,"
Psalm 2:7-"I will declare the decree: the LORD [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."
Psalm 2:11-"Serve the LORD [Heb: Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son..." (and Psalm 2:12)
"Being made so much better than the angels, as He has by INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they." (Heb. 1:4).
"Wherefore God also has highly exalted Him, and given Him A NAME which is ABOVE EVERY NAME" (Phil. 2:9).
"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name "those whom" Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11).
"And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" (Eph. 1:19-21).
"The Word was God... And the Word was made flesh..." God began fulfilling this aspect of His name when He came to us in the Flesh of Jesus Christ.
"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with them, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev. 21:2).
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17) .
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28) .
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER ..." (Eph. 1:17) .
In his https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html paper, Ray taught this:
There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD ! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16) .
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4) .
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3) .
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT) .
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42) .
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18) .
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1) . (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking] : 'Thy throne, O GOD , is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8) .
I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
I hope this helps our understanding.
Warmest Regards.
George
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A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.
Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
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Dennis -
Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.
Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Dennis -
Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.
Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.
Warmest Regards.
George
Not really George.
Rotherham:
Joh 1:1 Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God.
Joh 1:2 The same, was originally, with God.
Joh 1:3 All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,
You said "Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son" which is not the same thing as Jesus making all things as shown. The Father gave Jesus the power to do the creating. It may seem petty, but it could be significant. And as Ray liked to say "you've got to pay attention to the words."
You said "The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created." which is not what Ray teaches. Ray teaches Jesus was created.
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Dennis -
Thank you for the clarification:
Dennis -
Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.
Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.
Warmest Regards.
George
Not really George.
Rotherham:
Joh 1:1 Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God.
Joh 1:2 The same, was originally, with God.
Joh 1:3 All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,
You said "Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son" which is not the same thing as Jesus making all things as shown. The Father gave Jesus the power to do the creating. It may seem petty, but it could be significant. And as Ray liked to say "you've got to pay attention to the words."
You said "The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created." which is not what Ray teaches. Ray teaches Jesus was created.
A little clarification on my part:
1. I did not say that I believed that The Son was not Created - I said that some on this Forum believe that The Son always existed with The father - hence not Created.
2. I said that Ray taught that God's First Creation was The Only Begotten Son - and that it was The Father in The Son doing the works that Jesus did. Jesus Himself said this in The New Testament on more than one occasion.
Did Jesus Himself not testify that the works that He does are His Father's Works, and it is The Father in Him, that is doing His Works:
John 10:32 (KJV):
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 14:10 (Amplified Bible):
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not say on My own initiative or authority, but the Father, abiding continually in Me, does His works [His attesting miracles and acts of power].
John 14:10 (KJV):
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?
I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.
Warmest Regards.
George
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George:
1. Let's let the links you posted allow Ray to speak for himself.
2. There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things. We cannot cherry-pick our way to understanding, and they do not contradict (especially when rightly translated).
3. Try not to interpret what "other members" of this forum do or do not believe. Firstly, everybody who IS is working this out over time. Secondly, nobody who is working this out over time is capable of explaining things.
4. You're welcome to your understanding, but asking for "correction" is not helpful. We can "point to" what Ray taught, but we cannot "correct" every theory unless and until we all understand all the terms. And we don't.
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Dave -
Thank you for your input on this, as I always appreciate your unique insight into these things, whereby, Peter said 'some things are hard to understand' ; and please note my responses below, for your consideration:
George:
1. Let's let the links you posted allow Ray to speak for himself. George: Is that not what I have done, by referencing what Ray taught in his papers, and providing appropriate segments for clarification?
2. There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things. We cannot cherry-pick our way to understanding, and they do not contradict (especially when rightly translated). George: I know full well that The Holy Scriptures do not contradict; and it is very dangerous to cherry pick - that is where all the false Doctrines stem from. I do not comprehend what you mean by 'There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things'.
3. Try not to interpret what "other members" of this forum do or do not believe. Firstly, everybody who IS is working this out over time. Secondly, nobody who is working this out over time is capable of explaining things. George: I am not trying to interpret anything, as we all know full well that The Holy Scriptures provide all the answers we need. With regards to others views, I was merely summarising what these were, based on numerous previous threads and posts, which you contributed to.
4. You're welcome to your understanding, but asking for "correction" is not helpful. We can "point to" what Ray taught, but we cannot "correct" every theory unless and until we all understand all the terms. And we don't. George: My understanding is that within The Holy Scriptures, as I am not interested in my opinions, and I do not recollect asking for correction of anything - unless you are making a reference to the Scriptures about 'correcting those that contradict', which is what Ray's teachings are all about, are they not?
Warmest Regards.
George
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You said:
I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
A: Dennis addressed this.
B. I don't know of anybody who believes this the way you've put it....unless they are in general disagreement with Ray on the subject. Ray said it was axiomatic that without "Son" there is no "Father". Do you think I can explain that as opposed to the way you put it, in a forum post? "The way you've put it" is why I made my points. No boxes.
I appreciate the fact that you've posted links and pieces of the articles. I would rather you didn't "summarize". Not on this topic. It gets us nowhere.
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Dave -
Thank you for your response:
You said:
I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
A: Dennis addressed this.
B. I don't know of anybody who believes this the way you've put it....unless they are in general disagreement with Ray on the subject. Ray said it was axiomatic that without "Son" there is no "Father". Do you think I can explain that as opposed to the way you put it, in a forum post? "The way you've put it" is why I made my points. No boxes.
I appreciate the fact that you've posted links and pieces of the articles. I would rather you didn't "summarize". Not on this topic. It gets us nowhere.
Duly noted and accepted.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Just to clarify how I read it George. When you say "I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:"
The word "us" is inclusive of yourself which in my mind means you agree with the "us" on this forum.
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Why state what "most of us" believe anyway? What percentage of forum members regularly post on here? I wonder how many forum members do not have any opinion or concern about this topic at all? Man it really leaves a "churchy" feeling when people start speaking for others.
In the passage posted in the original post you included brackets with interpretations. False doctrines come in, not just when we cherry pick verses, but when we let others interpret scripture for us. And false doctrines thrive when we use "most of us believe" as proof of something being true.
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George said:
To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?
I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.
What you say here is true and this may be nitpicking. But when you said the Father did the creating that was a false statement and we have a duty to correct anything that is not true even if it seems small and inconsequential at the time. Sometimes a doctrine can take a different direction and lead to a false conclusion because of a tiny detour.
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Dennis -
Regarding clarification:
Just to clarify how I read it George. When you say "I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:"
The word "us" is inclusive of yourself which in my mind means you agree with the "us" on this forum.
You are referring to the below:
I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
What I mean by the above is that I understand from previous Posts on this subject, that there are some on the Forum which believe either A or B - and perhaps, I should not have used the term 'most' - and I believe The Holy Scriptures confirm A.
Warmest Regards.
George
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largeli -
Thank you for pointing these things out:
Why state what "most of us" believe anyway? What percentage of forum members regularly post on here? I wonder how many forum members do not have any opinion or concern about this topic at all? Man it really leaves a "churchy" feeling when people start speaking for others.
In the passage posted in the original post you included brackets with interpretations. False doctrines come in, not just when we cherry pick verses, but when we let others interpret scripture for us. And false doctrines thrive when we use "most of us believe" as proof of something being true.
I stand corrected.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Dennis -
Thank you for pointing this out:
George said:
To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?
I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.
What you say here is true and this may be nitpicking. But when you said the Father did the creating that was a false statement and we have a duty to correct anything that is not true even if it seems small and inconsequential at the time. Sometimes a doctrine can take a different direction and lead to a false conclusion because of a tiny detour.
Much appreciated, and accepted.
Warmest Regards.
George
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All -
Reposted without the square bracket wording:
I love this passage of The New Testament Scriptures, as it is full of the riches of His Wisdom:
John 8: 12-59: Amplified Bible (AMP)
12 Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, “I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 Then the Pharisees told Him, “You are testifying on Your own behalf; Your testimony is not valid.” 14 Jesus replied, “Even if I do testify on My own behalf, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to human standards. I do not judge anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true and My decision is right; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17 Even in your own law it is written that the testimony of two persons is true. 18 I am One who testifies about Myself, and My Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 Then the Pharisees said to Him, “Where is this Father of Yours?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 Jesus said these things in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His time had not yet come.
21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were asking, “Will He kill Himself? Is that why He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus replied, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to say and judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I say to the world the things that I have heard from Him.” 27 They did not realize that He was speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, you will know then that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own authority, but I say these things just as My Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” 30 As He said these things, many believed in Him.
31 So Jesus was saying to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word you are truly My disciples. 32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone. What do You mean by saying, ‘You will be set free’?”
34 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, everyone who practices sin habitually is a slave of sin. 35 Now the slave does not remain in a household forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, then you are unquestionably free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you plan to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I tell the things that I have seen at My Father’s side; so you also do the things that you heard from your father.”
39 They answered, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, then do the works of Abraham and follow his example. 40 But as it is, you want to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted. 41 You are doing the works of your father.” They said to Him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love and recognize Me, for I came from God and have arrived here. For I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you misunderstand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and it is your will to practice the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and half-truths. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 Whoever is of God and belongs to Him hears God’s words; for this reason you do not hear them: because you are not of God and you are not in fellowship with Him.”
48 The Jews answered Him, “Are we not right when we say You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon. On the contrary, I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 However, I am not seeking glory for Myself. There is One who seeks and judges. 51 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will indeed never, ever see and experience death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and also the prophets; yet You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never, ever taste of death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too! Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 Yet you do not know Him, but I know Him fully. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day (My incarnation). He saw it and was delighted.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not even fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus concealed Himself and left the temple.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Many are called but few are chosen...... Yes is true!
When there is only God;
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:6
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:18
And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. Isa 45:21
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:22
When God had a Son which is God;
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
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When God had a Son which is God;
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Psalm 22 ? what?
What is the point here Santem? Are you saying Psalm 22:? is talking about The Father and the Son?
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Also Santgem,
Not sure what you are saying in your statement; "Many are called but few are chosen......Yes is true!"
I'm not questioning the "many called but few are chosen" statement, but would you clarify how it meshes with the rest of your post?
Joel
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When there is only God;
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:6
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:18
And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. Isa 45:21
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:22
Thank you for these old friends santgem.
Scriptural proof that there is only One God.
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1 John 5:20. ANd we know that the Son Of God has come and has given us understanding
So that we may know Him who is TRUE, IN his son Jesus Christ, He is the TRUE God and eternal
life.
From video, Inherit the Kingdom
Can two individuals be ONE GOD,,,,,,,YES
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It seems I owe you an apology George. 'Through' is a proper term:
(ASV) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
(CLV) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."
(Diaglott-NT) but to us one God the Father, out of whom the all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Anointed, through whom the all things, and we through him.
(KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Rotherham) Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him.
(YLT) yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
These verses also state that there is one "God the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ." That's two individuals, but only one is called God the Father. But Jesus is equal to God:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
If they are one and the same, how can Jesus be equal with himself?
We know that Jesus and God the Father are one: Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
But that does not mean they are one and the same being. Jesus died but God the Father is immortal and cannot die.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
If they are one and the same being then God the Father also died, which we know is not possible.
But perhaps I misunderstood you and you mean there is one God comprised of two separate individuals? One of whom died for our sins, but the other cannot die.
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(ASV) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
(CLV) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."
(Diaglott-NT) but to us one God the Father, out of whom the all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Anointed, through whom the all things, and we through him.
(KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(Rotherham) Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him.
(YLT) yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
These verses also state that there is one "God the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ." That's two individuals, but only one is called God the Father. But Jesus is equal to God:
That's not what Ray taught, Dennis. At the very least, he raised the important question about how that verse is translated.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
My Lord AND My God. Here, at least, not TWO, but ONE.
I know this can be difficult, but Ray promised that the "enigma" was not covered in any of the world's common theologies.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Since it is the Jewss talking, perhaps this verse should read "...He said also that God was his Father, making Himself appear to be equal with God." They certainly didn't believe He was "equal to God". They certainly didn't believe He was God.
The very next verse is: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (To the Jews, in parable).
Besides, God is Spirit. Can Spirit be an "individual"? We only know Father through Son (No man can come to the Father but by the Son). We only see Father through Son (He is the express image of Invisible God...If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father).
We are formed in His image. We're not "two individuals". Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. And Jehovah God is--one God the Father, out of whom the all things. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened... one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things.
I know there are dozens of Scriptures that mention Father and Son. Jesus himself used the term, and often. But His words are Spirit. He describes things Spiritually, even when he's not speaking in parables. And to claim every reference to "God" in the New Testament as being about "God the Father" is (or may be) theological assumption based on the supposition that that there are two "individuals". I don't doubt the Father. The literal Father of Jesus Christ the man was Holy Spirit. Can Spirit (which is everywhere) not also be in one "place" specifically and for an appointed time? "The Father is in me..." Can't Christ (who now has immortality) Who humbled Himself to become a man, died, rose and ascended to the "right hand" of the Father (which Ray taught is not a literal seat on a literal right hand), given glory (which Jehovah God does not share, much less with another "individual") be both Lord and God?
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THE GLORY OF GOD
If Jesus and Jehovah are just different spellings of the very same name, how can Jesus be Jehovah and Jehovah be Jesus? Good question, and I will try to solve that enigma for you in my paper "Solving the Enigma of God." But for now, let's notice a few things that do prove that this is so.
Did Jehovah say that He was NEVER gives His glory to another? Yes He did.
"The God of Israel, the LORD of hosts...For Mine Own sake, even for Mine Own sake, will I do it: for how should My Name be polluted? and I will NOT give My glory unto another" (Isaiah 48:2 &11).
"I am the LORD [YHWH-Jehovah/Jesus]: that is My Name: and My glory will I NOT give unto another, neither My praise to graven images" (Isaiah 42:8).
If Jesus is not Jehovah, how do we square these statement of Jehovah in Isaiah with the following statement of Jesus Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John?
"For the Son of man shall come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).
"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when HE COMES IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38).
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when HE SHALL COME IN HIS OWN GLORY, AND IN HIS FATHER'S [GLORY], and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:26)..
"And now, O Father, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF [Thine OWN glory] with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5)..
"When Jesus heard that He said:
"This sickness is not unto death, but FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, that THE SON of God might be GLORIFIED THEREBY" (John 11:4).
God's word does not contradict. When Jehovah gave Jesus His "glory," He did not give it to "another." Jesus is not "another." Jesus IS Jehovah! And... AND, Jehovah IS JESUS.
Notice below just Who John prepared a road in the wilderness for. Isaiah says Jehovah, whereas Mark says Jesus.
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Jehovah/Jesus existed before the foundation. There is none beside Him. Jesus the man was born at a certain time and place and recieved that name, and died "in the fulness of time". It may well be a logical conclusion that Son can't be Father, but it is not outisde the scope of Spiritual understanding that Father can become Son.
There's no specific mention of "Father" in the Old Testament (except what refers to Son). Jesus came to reveal the Father. Jesus did not come to reveal a "being" who did not exist before He did. Jesus did not come to reveal an "individual" now to be known as "the Father" that isn't mentioned in the Old Covenant Scripture at all, much less as an individual. Jesus did not come to reveal another God not known before He revealed Him, much less one more powerful. He came to reveal the Father, and He said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Speaking Spirit.
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All -
Perhaps we are not that far apart after all.
If our understanding is based of these two terms:
1. begotten
2. came from
Then, if the root meanings are these:
1. to procreate or generate (offspring)
2. originate
Do we have 'create' or 'procreate'; and is it all about Fatherhood?
Were my own sons created, or procreated? Did the Life in me, create, or procreate, the Life in my own sons?
Genesis makes a distinction between 'create' and 'make' - in that He first 'created' and then he 'made' - so if The Son was also created, why do The Holy Scriptures use 'begotten' and 'came from'?
Maybe, it is as simple, or as complicated, as:
Our Beloved Creator (The Father) is so awesome that His sons and daughters cannot behold His Glory; and that is why He sent forth His Beloved Son, to create all things, including His spirit messengers (angels), and mankind - and then, eventually His Beloved Son revealed Our Heavenly Father to us?
Then, when Our Beloved Creator (The Son) became a Man of flesh and blood (but without ever sinning, as The Father is always with Him), and died, and washed all of our sins away with His shed blood - He remained a Man, with all the fullness of His Father - to be Our Mediator, to Save us all?
So what is the endgame, when His Plan is fully fulfilled for all His Creation - and mankind are the glorious Sons of God? Will we see Him as He is? And Who is He? Is He Our God and Saviour, The Son embodied by The Father (in Glory), as a Man with a Spiritual Body, like we all will be? So then, will we be like Him, and see Him 'face to face'?
Warmest Regards.
George
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Psalm 22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise.
For the choir director; upon (a) Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? (b) Far from my deliverance are the words of my (c) groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but (d) I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy, O You who (e) are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered; In You they trusted and were not (f) disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me (g) sneer at me; They (h) separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “ (i) Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from (j) birth; You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for (k) trouble is near; For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within (l) me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me (m) in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me; (n) A band of evildoers has encompassed me; (o) They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my (p) soul from the sword, My only life from the (q) power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you (r) descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you (s) descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The (t) afflicted will eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before (u) You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S And He rules over the nations.
29 All the (v) prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who (w) cannot keep his soul alive.
30 (x) Posterity will serve Him; It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
Footnotes:
a) Psalm 22:1 Lit the hind of the morning
b) Psalm 22:1 Or Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
c) Psalm 22:1 Lit roaring
d) Psalm 22:2 Lit there is no silence for me
e) Psalm 22:3 Or inhabit the praises
f) Psalm 22:5 Or ashamed
g) Psalm 22:7 Or mock me
h) Psalm 22:7 I.e. make mouths at me
i) Psalm 22:8 Lit Roll; another reading is He committed himself
j) Psalm 22:10 Lit a womb
k) Psalm 22:11 Or distress
l) Psalm 22:14 Lit my inward parts
m) Psalm 22:15 Lit to
n) Psalm 22:16 Or An assembly
o) Psalm 22:16 Another reading is Like a lion, my...
p) Psalm 22:20 Or life
q) Psalm 22:20 Lit paw
r) Psalm 22:23 Lit seed
s) Psalm 22:23 Lit seed
t) Psalm 22:26 Or poor
u) Psalm 22:27 Some versions read Him
v) Psalm 22:29 Lit fat ones
w) Psalm 22:29 Or did not
x) Psalm 22:30 Lit A seed
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George and all...by way of encouragement.
1. Jer 31:34 And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, (not Ray, not Dennis, not me. nor anybody else) Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more
2. The heaven (collective mind) of the heavens (individual minds) cannot contain Him.
3. I feel after Him perchance I might find Him...though He is not far from any of us. For in Him we live, and move, and are.
I hope those three thoughts make you as happy, content, and humbled as they do me.
This is all His workmanship. We have no cause to glory. Jesus is Lord.
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Dave -
Thank you for sharing this; which I am sure, we all appreciate, and are humbled, and Blessed, by these wonderful Scriptures:
George and all...by way of encouragement.
1. Jer 31:34 And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, (not Ray, not Dennis, not me. nor anybody else) Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more
2. The heaven (collective mind) of the heavens (individual minds) cannot contain Him.
3. I feel after Him perchance I might find Him...though He is not far from any of us. For in Him we live, and move, and are.
I hope those three thoughts make you as happy, content, and humbled as they do me.
This is all His workmanship. We have no cause to glory. Jesus is Lord.
We all yearn for His Truths; and for Him to be pleased with us, in all that we are, and think. and do.
Warmest Regards.
George
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This God the Father and Jesus are one-in-the-same is nonsense as far as I am concerned. But there are some sincere and well meaning people here and that should be respected.
So even though my life is about as messed up as possible at this time I will find the time in the next few days and address this issue here.
But in the meantime someone please explain how God the Father died. How did that work?
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Turtles all the way down.
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Okay, it's been 24 hours and no replies. But we all have minds of our own and different opinions. So a different question:
Jesus is our elder brother and we are all One with Him: Several translations of Hebrews 2:11
(ASV) For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
(CLV) For both He Who is hallowing and those who are being hallowed are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to be calling them brethren,
(Diaglott-NT) He both for sanctifying and those being sanctified out of one all; for which cause not he is ashamed brethren them to call,
(KJV) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
(Rotherham) For, both he that maketh holy, and they who are being made holy, are, all, of One; For which cause, he is not ashamed to be calling them, brethren,
(YLT) for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified are all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
And we know we shall all be like Jesus:
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Question: We have minds of our own but does Jesus have a mind of His own? Or is God the Father and Jesus' mind one-and-the-same?
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I think God the Father IS the "mind" of Jesus/Jehovah, since the question was asked that way.
But that's not scripture. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Jesus/Jehovah. That 'is' "scripture", though I don't know of a "verse" that says that directly. I'd be thrilled to discover two or three that did or said it better, but in the meantime it's scripture explaining scripture.
But in the meantime someone please explain how God the Father died. How did that work? I tried to reply last night, but the forum wouldn't come up. I can't answer with the wisdom of men. When Jesus/Jehovah died, he committed His Spirit to the Father. Not all of our deaths are so deliberate, but--passively, at least--that's what happens at our dying. His Spirit did not die. Soul died...same as us.
Jesus/Jehovah is the "intermediary" between God and Man. The Link between Spirit and the Physical universe (which is created out of Spirit). The physical universe fills all the descriptions/statements which Jesus said about Himself when speaking about this relationship spiritually. It receives nothing aside from Spirit. It doesn't do anything apart from Spirit. Etc. Spirit fills all the conditions Jesus said about the Father, spiritually. It's greater, etc.
We can't compare or think of "spirit" as a giant Caspar, the friendly ghost. Without Spirit, there isn't anything at all. In Him we live and move, and are.
Does that go beyond Ray? Maybe (and maybe not), but not far beyond, because he taught me (or verified to me) every littler thing that takes me 'here', and asked the right questions to stir the pot.
I'm still not "explaining" things. I don't understand "Spirit" completely--and can't. He IS unapproachable in the brightness of His glory, and no man has seen His face. ;) Except the One Who knows Him best--Who is in Him, and in Whom He is.
Same as us.
WNT 1Co 2:11 For, among human beings, who knows a man's inner thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? In the same way, also, only God's Spirit is acquainted with God's inner thoughts.
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Was BT down this morning? Wouldn't come up for hours. Any way I would like to address Dave about the statement I made about (Can two individuals be one God? yes)
These are Ray's exact words he used when discussing The Father and Son being one God. I was
directing the forum to the video Inherit the Kingdom. Did anyone watch it to verify the use of the word individuals? IN Christ... Pamela
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I think God the Father IS the "mind" of Jesus/Jehovah, since the question was asked that way.
So are you saying they are one and the same? Jesus does not have a mind of his own? Yes or no please.
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So are you saying they are one...
Yes.
...and the same?
No. No more than your spirit and you are the same.
Jesus does not have a mind of his own? Yes or no please.
I don't know what this question/statement means.
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The Scriptures teach only One God.
The Many believe in their false doctrine of the Trinity, three God's.
Many here on the Forum believe in the equally false doctrine of two Gods, a Father God and a Jesus God.
But there is only One God. One mind, One personality, One God. As Jesus said, "I and the Father are One."
But as Paul taught, there are different aspects and functions of this One God. God can chew gum and skip rope at the same time.
One function of God is the Father, "out of whom are all things." Another function of God is the Son, "by whom our all things." One God, different aspects or functions. But as Paul said, "Not many know this."
Which is why Elohim is a plural noun, but the OT uses as applicable to a single entity.
I briefly talked to Ray about this when I noticed he was coming to a different understanding of God's being at the end. I said many on the Forum will have a hard time with understanding this. He told me we must follow where the Spirit leads.
Only God's Spirit can bring true understanding of the True God. I am not sure if God wants this Truth to come out here and now, or will Jesus wait until the next age to teach this to His Elect?
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Was BT down this morning? Wouldn't come up for hours. Any way I would like to address Dave about the statement I made about (Can two individuals be one God? yes)
These are Ray's exact words he used when discussing The Father and Son being one God. I was
directing the forum to the video Inherit the Kingdom. Did anyone watch it to verify the use of the word individuals? IN Christ... Pamela
Yes, it was down this morning. Here's the link to that Video. http://youtu.be/QhGbw_cgweQ
In it, after declaring from Scripture that Jesus most definitely is God, Ray said at about the 12 minute mark. "One person? No. One God? Yes....Can two individuals be one individual? No. Can two individuals be one God? Yes." That's the quote. Listen to what immediately precedes and follows and make of it what you will.
Just as Ray wished in one of the last home studies that we could get away from the word "God", I wish we (and I believe he as well) could get away from words like "individual". He did make the point that only Jesus (as a man) could properly be called a "person". The Trinitarians have One God in three "persons". The Unitarians have God as one "person (or a synonym)", though that person (or synonym) is not Jesus Christ. But it seems we're stuck with it.
Of what use is it? Persons=individuals=beings=entities. It's all the same. Might as well say Dudes or Fellers. Get to talking about "aspects" or "expressions" or some other more abstract term, and it begins to make more sense how One God could be two--even how two God's could be One. It's even possible to understand that "individual" might mean (more metaphorically) an aspect or an expression. Maybe that's even what Ray was driving toward, and not a sentence to be cut out of the whole with an "!" after it. I don't know...I just suspect.
None of those terms are "scripture", however,--and not just Dudes and Fellers. They're just useful (if at all) to express what is meant by Father and Son. I think I will stick to "Father" and "Son", and let the chips fall. If "I" am nothing like "Them", then I care no more about it than how many Philistines Samson killed. I'm just a piece of meat with a brain.
I've been silent on this issue since we decided to limit discussion on it (a decision I supported and still do, for my own reasons). I can go back to my cave, but I cannot "un-think" what Ray himself led me to, or confirmed in me, bit by bit by bit.
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Just tell me what word you prefer in place of individual and I'll use it Dave.
The forum was down last night for server software upgrades but it took longer than expected.
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I do not doubt that Jesus has God's spirit. But was it to the extent that the two of them were and still are identical? Are they one-and-the-same being as some suggest?
This goes back to my question; Does Jesus have a mind of His own?
Ray has said more than once that God is not 'a' spirit ... God 'is' spirit.
But if God the Father and Jesus are one-and-the-same, why even use Jesus as an intermediary when you are talking directly to God in the first place? But it makes sense if God created a Son to be the intermediary.
An intermediary by definition passes on information as a link between two individuals. Words have meaning.
And it is Jesus that judges the world. Why even use Jesus when there is no difference? But it makes sense if God created a Son to do the judging, just as we were created to be the judged. Jesus is our elder brother.
And if they are one-and-the-same how can Jesus really be a Son? This destroys the Father/Son relationship.
Jesus says "our Father" in the so called 'Lord's Prayer.' The word 'our' means yours and mine. The Son cannot also be His own Father and vice versa.
And if He is the firstborn of what we will be like, does that mean we will also be one-and-the-same as God the Father? Will we become as God?
Dave said "He IS unapproachable" but Jesus is the intermediary and approachable. Doesn't that make the point that they are not one-and-the-same?
Will all of us become exact clones of God the Father? Else why put 50 billion different people through good and evil?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Dozens of times God the Father and Jesus are referred to as being different individuals. The Son cannot be His own Father and vice versa.
I'll reply to JFK's post in detail tomorrow.
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now, or will Jesus wait until the next age to teach this to His Elect?
Brother, it does not appear what we shall be, but we know that when He appears, we shall be like him. For we shall see Him as He is.
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Just tell me what word you prefer in place of individual and I'll use it Dave.
I've answered for myself. Father, and Son.
I won't bother you about your choice of words any more. They are all equally lacking for the task. Though "Dude" and "Feller" may be a bit sacrilegious.
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As we contemplate this topic, let's not forget that scripture confirms that Jesus also has a God:
Ephesian 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies, in Christ,
1Peter 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to his great mercy, hath regenerated us unto a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,
1Cor 15:23-24 -But each in his own rank: A firstfruit, Christ, after that, they who are the Christ's in his presence. Afterwards, the end—whensoever he delivereth up the kingdom unto his God and Father, whensoever he shall bring to nought all rule and all authority and power;
(Rotherham)
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1 Corth:24...Then comes the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule,every authority and power.25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26, The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27, for God has put all things
In subjection under His feet.But when it says all things are put in subjection, it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.28,When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be All in All.
Can someone explain this scripture to me please. I understand up to vs.27 and then my brain blew up.😳 Thank you.
Glory be to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Glory
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One last, and then I'll stop.
Dave said "He IS unapproachable" but Jesus is the intermediary and approachable. Doesn't that make the point that they are not one-and-the-same?
What I said was "He IS unapproachable in the brightness of His Glory." That part was playing fast and loose with Scripture. I was "quoting" something I thought I might have remembered reading. I was wrong.
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The way I see it, EVERYONE gets in trouble trying to explain the Godhead beyond what the scriptures say.
Joel
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Nobody had heard the voice of God the Father in any point in time, even now.
If, "I am the LORD" [YHWH-Jehovah/I AM/WORD] is Jesus and he said these things;
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
Isa 45:6, Isa 45:18, Isa 45:22 and many others
then why many of us here said that "Jesus was created".
Is the two or three scriptures still questionable?
Jesus had a Father and God When he was born with a virgin.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
When Jesus had a flesh he had God, when at that point in time Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus is speaking to the patriarchs He is the only God.
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I hope this thread doesn’t get locked or put away before good answers to the questions are figured out. Wouldnt it be fantastic to know we can look right here for understanding about the Father and the Son?
Santgem, Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed. The Lord God of the Old Testament says He was formed.
Who formed Him? Someone other than Himself?
As far as I know, the Lord God of the Old Testament never claimed to be the Father.
Now I should go back to my quiet safe place but,
Was it not The Lord God of the Old Testament who became our Savior Jesus Christ?
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I hope this thread doesn’t get locked or put away before good answers to the questions are figured out. Wouldnt it be fantastic to know we can look right here for understanding about the Father and the Son?
Santgem, Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed. The Lord God of the Old Testament says He was formed.
Who formed Him? Someone other than Himself?
As far as I know, the Lord God of the Old Testament never claimed to be the Father.
Now I should go back to my quiet safe place but,
Was it not The Lord God of the Old Testament who became our Savior Jesus Christ?
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. KJV - Isa 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.NKJV
But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says the LORD.
“You are my servant.
You have been chosen to know me, believe in me,
and understand that I alone am God.
There is no other God—
there never has been, and there never will be.NLT
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.NIV
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.ESV
“You are my witnesses” —
this is the Lord’s declaration —
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
No god was formed before me,
and there will be none after me.CSB
“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.NASB
You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe in me, and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.NET
"You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.RSV
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.ASV
Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.YLT
1. Jesus is preordained
2. Jesus is already the Saviour before the foundation of the world
3. The Three scriptures below comparatively connected to Jesus
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
God the Father and Jesus shared the same glory.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
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Jesus was sent:
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And who is the greater?
Joh_13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
We are told many times there is one God and there is no denying that. But you have to reconcile the fact that Jesus has a God and that God is the one God. God the Father has no god, so they are different.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
2Co 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of pities and God of all consolation,
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, according to His vast mercy, regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead,
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
As the Mediator Jesus is called a man:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(Notice one God and [in addition] one mediator)
But God the Father is not a man:
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Did God the Father have to learn obedience?
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Jesus was not disobedient as a man on this earth (if you disagree show me where). He learned obedience before coming to this earth. See https://youtu.be/086Vs1YfaEo (https://youtu.be/086Vs1YfaEo)
Why would Jesus have to turn anything over to God the Father if they are one-and-the-same?
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Saying Jesus always existed smacks of the trinity.
And as Stacey said "Isaiah 43:10 states He was formed."
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I suggest you listen to Ray's last bible study: https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY (https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY)
I have other items on a list and it seems there is a never ending supply of verses showing God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same. This is not some nebulous theory. But I will continue if need be.
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God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same, When?
1. When Jesus is the Yahweh/Jehovah/I AM/WORD
2. When Jesus was born of a virgin
so my question is when they are not one - and- the- same, in number 1 or number 2?
of course, i prefer no.2
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When you are 'begotten' you come into existence. John 1:18:
(ASV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(CLV) God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
(Diaglott-NT) God no one has seen ever; the only-begotten son, that being in the bosom of the Father, he has made known.
(KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(Rotherham) No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him .
(YLT) God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
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santgem -
Regarding your statement below - that The Father and The Son were not the same, only when The Son was born of a virgin:
God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same, When?
1. When Jesus is the Yahweh/Jehovah/I AM/WORD
2. When Jesus was born of a virgin
so my question is when they are not one - and- the- same, in number 1 or number 2?
of course, i prefer no.2
For clarity, please confirm if you are stating that as of now, 'The Father and The Son' are one and the same.
Warmest Regards.
George
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santgem -
Regarding your statement below - that The Father and The Son were not the same, only when The Son was born of a virgin:
God the Father and Jesus are not one-and-the-same, When?
1. When Jesus is the Yahweh/Jehovah/I AM/WORD
2. When Jesus was born of a virgin
so my question is when they are not one - and- the- same, in number 1 or number 2?
of course, i prefer no.2
For clarity, please confirm if you are stating that as of now, 'The Father and The Son' are one and the same.
Warmest Regards.
George
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
(Num. 12:6-8) – “He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?"
and I have turned aside My hands, and thou hast seen My back parts, and My face is not seen.' Exo 33:23
There are hundreds of Scriptures that says there is only one God and there is no God besides Him.There are also Scriptures that says Jesus and the Father are One, and the fulness of the Godhead bodily dwelleth in Jesus.
A voice is crying -- in a wilderness -- Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to our God. Isa. 40:3 'A voice of one calling in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, straight make ye his paths,' –Mark 1:3
'Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; Deuteronomy 6:4
"But Jesus answered them, 'My Father is working until now, and I work.' So then, on account of this saying, the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, not only because He had loosed the Sabbath, but also because He had called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:17-18)
"I and My Father are ONE" John 10:30
1Ti 3:16"........God was manifest in the flesh...
Col 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
so what's next? It is through, through and nothing but through Jesus that we will hear, communicate, feel, love, touch, sing , see God the Father. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:9
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Rev 22:4
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1Co 13:12
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psa 17:15
For clarity, please confirm if you are stating that as of now, 'The Father and The Son' are one and the same
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:5
They are One God, i repeat When Jesus is (Yahweh-Jehovah/I AM/WORD/LORD) they are one and the same; As of Now, they are Father and Son and they are One God.
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Pamela -
1 Corth:24...Then comes the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule,every authority and power.25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26, The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27, for God has put all things
In subjection under His feet.But when it says all things are put in subjection, it is plain that He is excepted who put all things in subjection under Him.28,When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be All in All.
Can someone explain this scripture to me please. I understand up to vs.27 and then my brain blew up.😳 Thank you.
Glory be to Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Glory
Regarding verse 28 of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, I understand that these verses reference Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 8:6:
Psalm 110:1 Modern English Version (MEV):
The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”
Psalm 8:6 Modern English Version (MEV):
You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
Please note the below, Phillips, NIBEV, ICB, GW and EXB versions:
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Phillips:
24-27 Then, and not till then, authority and power, hands over the kingdom to God the Father. Christ’s reign will and must continue until every enemy has been conquered. The last enemy of all to be destroyed is death itself. The scripture says: ‘He has put all things under his feet’. But in the term “all things” it is quite obvious that God, who brings them all under subjection to Christ, is himself excepted.
28 Nevertheless, when everything created has been made obedient to God, then shall the Son acknowledge himself subject to God the Father, who gave the Son power over all things. Thus, in the end, shall God be wholly and absolutely God.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 NIBEV:
15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to Yahweh the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For the Messiah must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that Yahweh who put all things under Yah’shua is excepted.
15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Yahweh, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that Yahweh may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 International Children’s Bible (ICB):
24 Then the end will come. Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers. And he will give the kingdom to God the Father. 25 Christ must rule until God puts all enemies under Christ’s control. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. 27 The Scripture says, “God put all things under his control.”[a] When it says that “all things” are put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself. God is the one putting everything under Christ’s control.
28 After everything has been put under Christ, then the Son himself will be put under God. God is the One who put all things under Christ. And Christ will be put under God, so that God will be the complete ruler over everything.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW):
24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.
25 Christ must rule until God has put every enemy under his control. 26 The last enemy he will destroy is death. 27 Clearly, God has put everything under Christ’s authority. When God says that everything has been put under Christ’s authority, this clearly excludes God, since God has put everything under Christ’s authority.
28 But when God puts everything under Christ’s authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, since God had put everything under the Son’s authority. Then God will be in control of everything.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Expanded Bible (EXB):
24 and then the end will come. At that time Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers, and he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father.
25 Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control;
26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death.
27 The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says “all things” are under him, it is clear this does not include the One who put everything under his control.
28 After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.
Warmest Regards.
George
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I never said there was not one God and God and Jesus are not one, because we are told they are one.
But multiple individuals (beings, entities, or whatever word you choose) can also be one with God and Jesus.
John 17:11
(ASV) that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
(CLV) that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me."
(Diaglott-NT) That all one may be; as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee, that also they in us one may be; that the world may believe, that thou me didst send.
(KJV) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(Rotherham) That they, all, may be, one,—even as, thou, Father, in me, and, I, in thee,—that, they also, in us, may be;—that, the world, may believe that, thou, didst send me forth.
(YLT) that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
"As Thou" (as You) is someone speaking to someone else.
And much of what George posted confirms that God and Jesus are not one-and-the-same.
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I never said there was not one God and God and Jesus are not one, because we are told they are one.
Dennis, this is more than mere semantics. Where in the New Testament are we told that "God and Jesus" are one? I don't know of a place. We're told, by Jesus Christ, that He and the Father are one. I think that's an important distinction, but not "the answer" by itself. If anyone assumes any and/or every mention of "God" "Theos" in the NT refers solely to the Father, that's an unfounded assumption. That is also playing fast and loose with Scripture.
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I'm trying to understand but not getting anywhere.
If Jesus and God are absolutely one-and-the-same did Jesus actually die (dead as dead can be)? Seriously, please tell me, how did that work?
And then there is everything else I've posted (like God is not a man but Jesus is a man), and much more I have not posted. I don't get it.
It makes more sense to believe they share the same spirit (so to speak) because Jesus knows His Father thru and thru but they are not one-and-the-same being. They are Father and Son.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus says if you have seen me you have seen the Father. But does anyone believe God the Father looks like a 33 year old Jew? He is not talking about the outward appearance. It's not literally applicable:
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father is symbolic as are many topics in the bible.
Again, watch this video: https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY (https://youtu.be/v-2Wq72GmqY)
Having a God that was tempted in every way and suffered greatly as someone I can identify with and knows first hand what we are going thru makes sense. This is why He pleads our case before the Father who did not have to learn obedience.
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John 1:1-5 makes it pretty clear to me.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
In HIM was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The way I see it, THE SPIRIT, and THE WORD are God, the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and THE SON.
Joel
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It's a cool video. I like the first few minutes best. That's honest struggle, and consideration of scripture, and open-mindedness. I would have enjoyed being there, and I HAVE been in "that chair" in my own "room". (I would have loved to have chimed in at about the 30:00 mark when they were talking about how did Paul knew Col. 2:9? From the Old Testament?
Yeah, I think so.
But I stopped coming at things from trying to understand every related verse, and all the possible permutations of translation, and whether or not this verse was symbolic and the one that seemed to contradict it was "literal". And trying to consider mightily HUGE topics like "eternal" and on and on and on. I reckoned, "Dave, if you can't understand the simpler things, how are you going to understand the larger things? If you don't understand physical things, how are you going to understand spiritual things they represent?"
So I considered the one parable He gave to me, and to all mankind (if they read and believe).
Gen 1:26 And saying is the Elohim, "Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness:
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Spirit) of life; and Man became a living soul.
And to simplify it further for a poor country boy, "..Jehovah Elohim formed...a living soul...in likeness and image."
I am formed a living Soul, a walking, talking parable of the One God. He's "Father" and "Son". I'm spirit and Me.
That's my way in.
From there I re-meditated. "What is a living soul?" Ray covered that. I am a living soul. "Who or what is Jehovah Elohim?" Ray covered that. He's GOD. What is God? Among other things, God is Love, and God is Spirit. What else is Spirit? "The words I speak to you are Spirit and they are life."
So what words did Jesus say about the Father and the Son? I looked them up. And I read them "spiritually". And I believed them "spiritually".
I am similar to/like "Father" and "Son".
A couple of examples?
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". I'm like that. If you observe me (from the outside, which is all you CAN do) long enough (Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?) you'd know ME a lot more.
"The Servant is not greater than the master." The living soul I am is not greater than the Spirit that gives me life. Without it, I'm just a well-designed hunk of meat. With it, I'm able to walk, talk, think, feel, and consider my own existence, and the nature of God.
"If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me." It is the spirit in ME that determines the works *I" do. Demo? "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things...". That's the way we "living souls" work! At least that's the way THIS one does. Some may think they choose what they dip out with their free-will.
Enough to at least be understood?
God is One. I am one, though "spirit" and "soul" are not one-and-the-same. One comes first, the other immediately (apparently), and inexorably follows.
There is none beside Him. There is none beside ME that is ME.
He formed Man in His image (form), and we are what we are because of what HE is in form. Not a 6'4" invisible Tennessee Feller and Feller Junior, but Spirit and Soul.
Col 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. I'm LIKE that, though I'm NOT that. Yet all the fulness of spirit and soul "dwells' in MY body, for that's all I am. That's the whole enchilada.
(Theology is a branch of Philosophy http://factmyth.com/the-branches-of-philosophy-overview/).
The only time Jesus can possibly be referred to as a "person" was from the time He was begotten of Mary and Holy Spirit till the time He died on the Cross. Before, He was ONE GOD. After, He is ONE GOD. And during, He was ONE GOD.
Santgem, it doesn't trouble me, with this understanding, that people say "The Son was created, and/or formed". Can you see why not?
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As long as I've been in this Forum ( I think I'm at 8 years to the day) the question of who Jesus Christ truly is has been a hallmark of Faith. How many times have I read if you don't understand that Jesus died, was dead and buried not in heaven or hanging out with Noah, but Dead- that his body did not die for us but He died for us- then you really don't know who you claim to worship? I'm not sure I understand why the debate . There are many times in scripture where the Word condescends to us because we just don't get it and He cannot yet explain it to us. For instance, God never changes His mind but there are scriptures that lead us to believe that. This is what I know. Jesus asked Peter who He was and Peter answered . We all have to answer that question and it is important for us to get this right.
Matthew 13- He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
As for me, there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son and he represents his Father perfectly.
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John 1:1-5 makes it pretty clear to me.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
In HIM was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The way I see it, THE SPIRIT, and THE WORD are God, the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and THE SON.
Joel
Before and After
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Santgem, it doesn't trouble me, with this understanding, that people say "The Son was created, and/or formed". Can you see why not?
Yes i can see that, It is your point of view.
Scriptures says that "In the beginning was the WORD". Is the WORD created? I did not read or didn't know that the WORD was created, Scriptures says that "WORD was with GOD".
The Word was made flesh, and who made Word flesh? It is God.
Before it is only the SPIRIT and the WORD, and when the Word was made flesh the SPIRIT became the Father and the Word became Son.
The WORD who became the SON in old said that, He is the only God (no God besides Him), the only Savior, the only Creature.
I must admit that I cannot find a word to replace the word “create” when it comes to Jesus who is the only God when we are speaking of old and who is the “Man Jesus”. I believe the word “create” is a wrong choice of word pertaining to Man Jesus.
As I presume you use the word create because Jesus was made lower than the angel and He is not in his original state.
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I don't see any of this making God and His Father one-and-the-same being. And I still do not see how Jesus died if they are the same.
This occurred to me this morning:
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Ray said in: https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=4472.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=4472.0)
So you’ve got, Jehovah said to my Adon, in the NT that becomes, God said to My Son Jesus. Because now we have who fulfilled this. I mean David did put his foot on a lot of his enemies, but not all. When he died he still had enemies. That’s why he told his son to kill them and make it bloody.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
And after also talking about Mat 22:44, Ray said in: https://bible-truths.com/audio/notes.htm (https://bible-truths.com/audio/notes.htm)
Jesus is both SON AND LORD.
And so Jehovah/Yahweh prophesied of HIS OWN COMING IN THE FLESH to be the Son of God to have all enemies put under His feet. But if Jehovah is the Son OF God, Who IS GOD? And where do we read ANYTHING about Him? Do we know of a single word that came out of the Mouth of God the Father? How can we love Him if we don’t even KNOW Him? Who is the Father and what is He like. Show me a verse in the Bible where the Father of Jesus Christ is speaking?
Here’s another riddle and enigma:
"Jesus said unto him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matt. 22:37).
WHO is this LORD God?
"Now these are the commandments…which the LORD your God commanded…And you shall love the LORD your God will all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" (Deut. 6:1 & 5).
WHO is this LORD God?
Jesus QUOTED this commandment from the Old Testament. If Jesus is Jehovah Elohim when why didn’t He say: "you shall love ME with all your heart, soul and mind? (They would have stoned Him on the spot). Is there any doubt that Jesus has reference to "His FATHER God" when He quoted this greatest of the commandments? Then what about the Old Testament command? Who was THAT "Lord God/Jehovah Elohim" that Israel was to love with all their heart?
Search for "HOW DAVID’S THRONE BECOMES CHRIST’S THRONE:" in the above article if you want to read the rest.
This is the third time this topic has been brought up even after I've asked people to leave it alone from now on in PM's.
It's okay if we cannot agree on this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But it serves no good purpose to go over it again and again. Can we at least agree to leave it alone after this? This leaves a bad taste in the mouth of people coming to this forum for the first time.
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The fact that the Word "became" / "was made" flesh by God proves the Word is not one-and-the-same as God the Father.
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For the record, I'm not suggesting that Father and Son are one-and-the-same. I don't know what the alternative to that is, so how could I? I'm saying only that Father and Son are ONE. I think that statement is true, scriptural, and also what Ray taught. Feel free to figure out the rest in any way that suits you.
My "journey" in this has not been to explain the "enigma of God", but to understand it. I just can't understand it theologically. I came into it from Scripture, and as far as I know so far, it doesn't contradict scripture (spiritually discerned). It does do a number on certain 'theological assumptions', but that usually makes me happy. ;D
At the same time, it doesn't "contradict" what Ray taught as far as I know. Why "as far as I know"? Because Ray himself was grappling with these things toward the end. That video is documented evidence of that. And what Ray taught earlier on is still true. That Father and Son are One in Spirit is still true. That the word "God" (Theos) is a "title" and not a name is still true. The One who holds the title has a name. That the God-head is "family" is still true, else why inspire the words Father, Son and Children at all?
It was Ray who taught me the basics of what "spirit" and "soul" meant, and who taught me when you body dies, soul goes to "the unseen" where there is no knowledge of anything.
Ecc 12:7 And the soil (body) returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it."
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And in conclusion ;D:
Jesus Christ as a Man had two parents. Let's not forget that either. Might be important.
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As long as I've been in this Forum ( I think I'm at 8 years to the day) the question of who Jesus Christ truly is has been a hallmark of Faith. How many times have I read if you don't understand that Jesus died, was dead and buried not in heaven or hanging out with Noah, but Dead- that his body did not die for us but He died for us- then you really don't know who you claim to worship? I'm not sure I understand why the debate . There are many times in scripture where the Word condescends to us because we just don't get it and He cannot yet explain it to us. For instance, God never changes His mind but there are scriptures that lead us to believe that. This is what I know. Jesus asked Peter who He was and Peter answered . We all have to answer that question and it is important for us to get this right.
Matthew 13- He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
As for me, there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Son and he represents his Father perfectly.
"Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Amen.
“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah (and Octoberose)! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Amen.
Let's also not forget the very most important time the Word condescended to us. He humbled Himself and became a man, and was obedient--even to death--and not just any death, but the death on a cross.
He rose from the dead, too. First.
I know Who I worship, and I know His Father through Him.
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For the record, I'm not suggesting that Father and Son are one-and-the-same. I don't know what the alternative to that is, so how could I? I'm saying only that Father and Son are ONE. I think that statement is true, scriptural, and also what Ray taught. Feel free to figure out the rest in any way that suits you.
Then we are not divided Dave. I've always said God and His Son are one because that's what we are told.
John 17:11 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
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What a lively debate. I believe the answers are in the Trinity Papers of Rays teaching. Peace and Love to all.
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No, we're not divided, Dennis. How deep the "One-ness" is and in what form these things take, and how we think of these things in our own thoughts shouldn't be matters of contention, but of sharing. It's the Spirit who reveals things. Good fruit--some thirty, some sixty, some a-hundred-fold.
It's been a very valuable thread for me. I think Joel's post about "getting in trouble" when we don't use Scriptural terms is very important. I intend to endeavor to follow that when attempting to "quote Scripture" (the bible says), and we owe it to each other to press when someone doesn't.
Now, I need to get back to up-dating my resume' and resuming my job-search (though I'd rather have my wisdom teeth extracted).
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The Scriptures teach over and over that there is One God.
Paul wrote that there is One God consisting of the Father out of Whom are all things AND the Son by Whom are all things. One God, but two aspects, two functions, two jobs. They are not one and the same. They do different things. But they are not separate. Not separate minds. Not separate personalities.
God can multi-task. God is Magnificent. The heaven and the heaven of heavens and beyond cannot contain Him. God is unique and will be unique. We will be his kin, members of His family, but we will not be Him.
Further proof of One God is Isa 9:6, which refers to Jesus..."For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..." In that Scripture Jesus is given two titles...."The Mighty God" and "The Everlasting Father". If Jesus is God and Father, then what Jesus said is True, "I and the Father are One."
Jesus and the Father are not separate or there would be two Gods. One God Who can do different things at the same time.
However, only God's Spirit can provide understanding of Who God is, which I do not think God is doing at this time.
Paul wrote "Not everyone knows this". I believe from other Scriptures that Jesus will teach Who He and the Father is in the next age.
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It's been a very valuable thread for me. I think Joel's post about "getting in trouble" when we don't use Scriptural terms is very important. I intend to endeavor to follow that when attempting to "quote Scripture" (the bible says), and we owe it to each other to press when someone doesn't.
On that point, let me say that scripture does NOT say "God and His Son" are One. Is that a minor point? Maybe, but maybe not.
I told ya, I'd rather have my wisdom teeth extracted than do what else I need to do. ;D
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Okay, this is a good place to end this topic. I'm going to lock it now.