bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Doug on December 20, 2018, 04:52:06 PM
-
Living in the United States with our laws and protections from persecution it is rare. Yes, there have been things said to me in the past that were not kind but certainly not what I would consider persecution.
In Acts 10:32 talks of being oppressed by Satan. To me oppression and persecution are the same. My question is can our persecution come from Satan either thru physical, mental or spiritual means? I have never thought of persecution coming from Satan but this seems to be very logical. Seems to me Job was persecuted by Satan. I do not think Ray ever spoke of this but I forget more than I can remember.
Doug
-
I don't have esword with me at the moment, but there is scripture in The Revelation about Satan accusing the brethren day and night. I don't mean to cast aside or minimize other forms of persecution, but day and night at least three times a week, he (through his ministers) accused this brethren with a "gospel" that was not only destructive, but impossible. And I am certainly not alone dealing with this.
-
Thanks for this post Doug, I'm sure many are confused about being persecuted, especially those of us who live where laws are in place to protect our religious freedom.
I think this is what Dave was referencing.
Revelation 12:9-11 (KJV)
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
-
Here's one more, sounds very accusing to me.
Job 2
4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
-
Persecution? Here's food for thought, and The New Living Translation is pretty clear. (husband and wife)
1st Corinthians 7:5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again SO THAT SATAN WON'T BE ABLE TO TEMPT YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR LACK OF SELF CONTROL.
Joel
-
Thanks everyone for your responses. It has actually been very helpful in my understanding.
Doug
-
Believe me when I tell you that persecution is alive and well. One doesn't have to be stoned or thrown in prison to experience persecution. I have experienced much persecution in my life mostly from friends and family members, but also from strangers. I say this not to boast as if I am something special, but to witness to the fact that it exists. All you need to do is comment on any video that is preaching about the existence of Hell. Leave a truthful comment and they will attack and condemn you for it. The closer you are with Christ, the more it will show in your every day life and people will begin to despise you for it.
-
Email from Ray dating 2007:
Hello Ray:
Thank-you for the quick reply on my question.
I would like to ask you another question on the same subject.
If we as Truth believers , (and I consider myself to be blessed in the true knowledge of Gods Holy Scriptures-- thanks to you and my Lord&Savior, Jesus Christ) are not persecuted according to what scripture teaches , then, are you saying that we are not true followers of Christ?
Maybe I' am a little confused on what the word persecution means in a scriptural sense. I dearly love God and His Holy Word and would not have it any other way, but, people that are close to me and know how I feel about my beliefs do not persecute me for the knowledge that I have obtained concerning the truths of God.
Could you please elaborate a little more on this subject Ray?
Thank-You
Your brother in Christ,
Mark
Dear Mark:
I could, but I really don't have the time, and this is a no-brainer. The Scriptures tell us that:
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Look up the word "persecution" in any dictionary and then ask yourself if that definition is happening to you? If not, then you may not be"living godly in Christ Jesus." I knew a pastor/teacher who stated before his death (in his late seventies), how thankful he was that we live at a time where there is "NO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION," and that he had never been persecuted for obeying God. Oh really? Everyone I have ever known who "lived godly in Christ Jesus" SUFFERED PERSECUTION. And I do believe that I can personally speak from experience in this matter myself. Maybe your time just hasn't come yet, or maybe your obedience and conversion is not showing. When it SHOWS, people will persecute you.
God be with you,
-
Hello Heidi. Thanks for sharing Ray's email and for witnessing to the truth! God Bless.
-
Hi,
Hello Brother Ray:
In your Lake of Fire series, (#3), you state that---
I can tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ, God's Word, and the Apostle Paul, that unless you are SUFFERING real PERSECUTION, you are NOT a follower of Jesus Christ nor are you living godly in Christ Jesus!
My question to you is-?
Does the affliction of persecution that the Scriptures speak of only come from the outwardly conduit of worldly man, or can said persecution be also from with-in ourselves, ie; what we all have to go through mentally in order to do our Fathers Will. I guess, if you will, a type of God inflicted, mental adjustment or better yet, a spiritual awakening to do the will of God.
Does persecution HAVE to be ONLY from the outside as opposed from within?
Thank-you Ray
God Bless YOU...
Best Regards;
Mark
Dear Mark:
No, as used in the Scriptures, persecution always comes from without from others,
not from within. Here is just one of many such examples: "If THEY have persecuted Me, THEY will also persecute you..." (John 15:20).
God be with you,
Ray
-
From E-mail—- Critique of L Ray Smith
Dear William
In anticipation of such unwarranted and hypocritical criticisms such as yours, God
put it in my mind to cover such mean spirited nonsense IN ADVANCE and here it is
right from YOU FOOLS , YOU HYPOCRITES, YOU SNAKES.
If Jesus were to come to America today and preach His gospel message, little would
have changed except for one prophesied difference. Everything has gotten even worse
than it was 2000 years ago.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse ,deceiving and being deceived.(2Tim.3:13)
Then began He ( Jesus) to UPBRAID (Greek Oneidizo) the cities wherein most of His mighty
works were done, because they repented not. ( Matt 11:20)
Blessed are ye when men shall REVILE ( Greek Oneidizo) you, and persecute you, and say all
manner of evil against you FALSELY for my sake. ( Matt.5:11)
Quote from Ray, last paragraph of the email.
“ I understand human nature better than any of my critics will even know,
and therefore in anticipation of such tactics against me, I warn my readers
that such attacks will come. They did the same with Jesus.They tried to turn His own
words back on Him to insinuate that He was a blasphemer. God knows that I don’t
blaspheme even if you don’t. I KNOW what is in my heart; are you sure you know what
is in yours?
All caps are Rays
Please read whole e-mail.
In Christ, Pamela
-
My experience with being persecuted was far worse being one of Jehovah's witnesses, going door to door witnessing to others, as well as trying to save family and friends from a certain death at Armageddon, as I believed. If not, my own life was in jeopardy.
Upon learning the truth I was free from those lies, as well as bearing the heavy burden of saving anyone. My family that remains, are so happy I no longer try to save them they could care less what I believe. I live a very isolated life at this point in time so there really is no one to be persecuted by. I suppose if it was God's will I share his truths with others that would change. I don't participate or even comment on social sites either, but I have on occasion stood firm for not agreeing with something I know would be in opposition to God's will for me, but even that didn't result in anything as serious as the persicussion I received being one of JW'S. Maybe there is persicussion in my future, but for now, things are very peaceful.
-
If the walk is too easy which is contrary to what the scriptures are saying,maybe you are living in a closet.
It is going to come,perhaps it is right around the corner.
Food for thought.
-
If the walk is too easy which is contrary to what the scriptures are saying,maybe you are living in a closet.
It is going to come,perhaps it is right around the corner.
Food for thought.
I didn't say it was easy, far from it.
Ephesians 6:12 (NIV)
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
I don't live in a closet, but I'm more isolated than I've ever been. I don't often have contact with others except when I'm out running errands, and I'm not moved to discuss God durring those times, so there isnt any reason I would experience persecution. If I was inclined to talk about God with anyone, including my own sons, I would definatly open myself up to persecution, but I am not inspired to do that, unless someone asks me a question pertaining to God, and even then I carefully consider the persons intentions.
Do we only consider ourselves, who believe we have the truth the only ones being persecuted? What about believers, are not many of them suffering persecution today?
I was most certainly a believer, and believed I had the only truth, before coming to a more accurate understanding, and I was persecuted every day of my life as a result.
Matt. 10:22
and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end, he shall be saved.
People are dying, and being tortured everyday for simply believing Jesus is the savior.
Is this not being persecuted and hated because of his name?
-
Wanda, I’ve listened to you long enough now to know that you carry burdens and sadness. If you walked as the world walks , perhaps some of these burdens would be less . But you don’t . Persecution doesn’t have to be the lions den - it can be isolation, grief, loss - any evil that we are confronted with because of who we are in Christ .
I don’t know why but all of us here experience the aloneness of being set apart as Christ followers who dont have a home . Where is there a congregation of people who believe like us? We found out pretty quickly that those around us don’t usually appreciate us rocking the boat . Isn’t that also persecution?
-
Outside of the Lord Jesus, the two clearest new testament biblical accounts of persecution are Stephen and Saul/Paul. The latter of those was among the persecutors of the former before the Lord changed him. In both cases, the persecutions came from the religiously powerful. I'm betting that in many of our lives, we have some of "both" in our pasts, if not our presents. Wanda does.
-
Hi Wanda,
I wasn't directing my post to you.That wouldn't be fair from me as I don't know you nor what you going through.It was just food for thought for anyone who may have thought as I did,which was that the walk was relatively easy.But now I am seeing flames.
I think at times I put myself under pressure.I read Scripture and see the Apostles dying,beaten and compare that to myself,which doesn't happen.Different times perhaps?Probably.But the Word doesn't change.During our times,perhaps many of us will not be physically beaten due to the freedom some of our countries give us,but then again,have i spoken too soon?Only God knows what tomorrow holds,and if any of us knew what tomorrow holds for us,we would probably not wanna live or go through that.
I mean who here can say they are hated because of what they believe?
-
I mean who here can say they are hated because of what they believe?
In a way, that kind of misses the point. Christians today are most often hated because of what other people believe. Sure, some are hated because they behave badly and contrarily to what they say they believe--but that in itself assumes some "love" for the message and for Christ in general. Those two are the visible and obvious "persecutions" going on in the world today.
The "invisible" persecution happens in the pews from the pulpit.
What I believe doesn't arm me to hate anybody...period. And (so far, at least) expressing what I believe doesn't raise hatred in any others except for some "Christians".
Lay aside for a moment church history on martyrs. Read what God inspired into scripture about The Lord Jesus, Stephen and Saul/Paul. Where did it come from? What did it lead to? How did the Lord Jesus and Paul "survive"/thrive? One thing is certain--you will understand what you are supposed to understand when you do.
-
Do we persecute ourselves? Worse than anyone else could?
-
When you hear the word persecution,it is automatically considered to be of religious or political
origin. Like it is something that is done to someone’s else but nothing you have done yourself.
Aren’ t we all persecuters, evil hearted beasts and ONLY BY THE GRACE( GRACING) OF GOD’s
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE are we blessed to be cleansed and purged of this abomination of
free will ,self purification, arrogance , pride, lust and anger? We are children of wrath,( anger) not
God’s wrath, our own. Thank God for His mercy on us and eventually all mankind.
Quote from Ray “ The man of sin, son of perdition is UNIVERSAL and found in ALL MANKIND.
THAT IS HOW SATAN DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD.
In Christ
Pamela
Much Love❤️
-
I looked up what the word "persecution" means in Strongs and the different versus, for instance,
Romans:8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Mark:4:17
have not root in themselves, but are temporary; afterward tribulation or persecution having come because of the word, immediately they are stumbled.
Matthew 13:21
But since they have no root, they last only a short ...
When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. ...
When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. ..
1 Thessalonians 3:7
Therefore, brothers and sisters, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith. ...
Hebrews 10:33
Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. ...
The Oxford dictionary states the following on the meaningof the word:
1. The act of treating somebody in a cruel and unfair way, especially because of their race, religion or political beliefs
the victims of religious persecution. They fled to Europe to escape persecution.
2. The act of deliberately annoying somebody all the time and making their life unpleasant
When reading these scriptures I noticed the preceding words to persecution, such as tribulation, insult, distress, pressure etc.
I am encouraged because my life is a pressure pot of all the above. I am not physically stoned for my faith but through much tribulations must enter the kingdom of God.
Heidi
-
Hi friends,
Having read thus far I have some thoughts to share that are intended to add light, so please bear with me.
I am having difficulty comparing tribulations with "religious persecution"
I have had a few tribulations in my 84 years that so far as I am aware had nothing to do with my faith or belief systems or the exercise of same.
I suppose that some of my tribulations could have been caused by authorities in high places, but have no way of knowing that.
It seems from the daily news that people of other "faiths" or no faith at all, maybe "pagan" have had even worse tribulations.
So we may attribute our often serious tribulations to God preparing us for the Kingdom, but is it due to our open, public belief in different religious doctrines? Is it due to our offending other people who believe differently? I don't see it.
When in the past I observed the seventh day sabbath there was a direct effect on my public work schedule. Someone had to cover my work shift on Saturday so that I could be off. Now that was not the fault of any other employee or of my employer who had established a business without my help may years previously. I did have the option of finding another job out of loving consideration for my fellow workers. What in scripture compels me to put difficulty in the path of my fellow workers who otherwise cover a seven day a week schedule, each taking their turn as needed. [smile]
When our beliefs conflict with public policy it can make our lives more difficult, but is it persecution?
-
The "invisible" persecution happens in the pews from the pulpit.
Oh my yes, and it's mighty powerful. Coming out of an extremely oppressive religion, this form of persecution was much worse than any of the visible I experienced. There is no escape until the truth sets you free.
Read what God inspired into scripture about The Lord Jesus, Stephen and Saul/Paul. Where did it come from? What did it lead to? How did the Lord Jesus and Paul "survive"/thrive?
The biggest threat of persecution that Jesus, Stephen and Paul had to contend with came from the Jewish religeous powers at that time. They were powerful enough to influence government leaders as well. Because of these powerful religeous leaders Jesus was crucified and Stephen was stoned, as well as many others.
The persecution had a purpose, it was actually demonstritive in spreading the gospel at that time. It also enboldened the ones preaching the gospel. We can see the same boldness with missionaries who go into dangerous areas of the world to teach, even if they don't teach the gospel of grace it still has a purpose in Gods plan.
Of course the majorty of us don't experience this severe form of persecution because we don't have to contend with religeous leaders with that kind of influence and power, but what many of us do contend with, is the oppressive form of persecution that comes from the religeous leaders, of the very churches we were called out of.
Oppress - synonym
To burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily on, oppressed by a sense of failure, oppress by intolerable guilt
-
From the LOF part 11 ( all caps are Rays)
And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, there they { everyone,
you, me, THE WHOLE WORLD } CRUCIFIED HIM.
But before our Saviour died, He prayed this prayer.’FATHER, FORGIVE THEM,,,, for they know
NOT what they do.”
Meditate on that verse for a few hours or ....years,etc.
WHO IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS?
For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision , which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumscion is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God.
For we are THE CIRCUMCISION , which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in the Christ Jesus
and have no confidence in the flesh.Phil.3:3
And they , ( , everyone, you , me, ALL OF US ,,, Matt 27:35,,, CRUCIFIED HIM
JER.17:9,,, The heart( of carnal, unconverted , mankind) IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS
AND DESPERATELY WICKED; who can know it?
Rom. 8:7,, Because of the carnal( natural) mind is enmity ( a deep seated hatred against God);
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I agree Wanda , that persecution has a purpose. “ Forgive them Father for they KNOW NOT
what they do”
FROM THE MYTH OF FREE WILL
Quote Ray,,,, even Gods Chosen Elect we’re once deceived
THE INVISIBLE HAND OF DECEPTION is an awesome study also today I am studying,
speaking in tongues, languages, there is a lot more to this one than I thought.
Love to all
In Christ Pamela
-
Rolihlahla, no worries, I was just adding food for thought myself.
Octoberose,
I agree our persecution does not have to be severe to be considered persecution. I'm pretty sure I am currently experiencing it to some degree, but because it's not as severe as when I was still in the church, which by the way strengthend my resolve, I consider it more of an annoyance than anything else. The real battle is from things not seen, not of flesh and blood.
Things that were once a burden, that caused great saddness, have been replaced with an understanding of the why of it all. There is great freedom in that knowing.
Actually, being isolated has worked in my favour, because all of the distractions that get in the way of studying, and spending time with God have been removed. Perhaps that is why God has isolated many of us .
-
If any of us, true believers of Christ whom have been shown the mysteries of His Kingdom were to go to any mainstream church today and preach from the pulpit what we believe, all of us will be persecuted. No ifs ands or buts. We all know this in our hearts. Is this not persecution?
Heidi
-
If any of us, true believers of Christ whom have been shown the mysteries of His Kingdom were to go to any mainstream church today and preach from the pulpit what we believe, all of us will be persecuted. No ifs ands or buts. We all know this in our hearts. Is this not persecution?
Heidi
Hello Heidi,
Not sure this will help or if it is fair to state, but supposing that I agree with your statement above, why do you think we should preach what we have learned in someone else's congregation. Isn't that "inviting" persecution? Does God require us to try to save other people when we know we are not welcome? Or is it better to live simply as an example of God's love for all persons and only be ready to give an answer for the faith that lie within us when asked in true sincerity. Surely as mature adults in the faith we can moderate our comments and simply change the subject to one more acceptable to the hearers. When God desires a person to seek truth won't it be obvious to those of us who are knowledgeable?
Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Kindly offered, Indiana Bob
-
Ray stated that persecution can only come from others. Would that include Satan?
In my life only a few times have someone mocked me for my believes. It was only words and they only have the power to hurt if you allow it. I think Ray considered people attaching him for his faith as persecution. Somehow I see it as having to be much harsher.
Doug
-
Hi Indiana Bob,
I totally agree with you. My comment was not to be taken literary, I am sorry if it was interpreted as that.
I started the conversation with "If" and only wanted to show that if God so inspired us to do that the outcome woul be persecution. I have no intention or desire to do so. I came out of Babylon in 2008 by the grace of God and have no desire to go back.
I give account of my faith when asked and know that no one can come to God unless He drags us to Him.
I totally agree with you on "When God desires a person to seek truth won't it be obvious to those of us who are knowledgeable?"
Thank you for the time you took in replying to my post and giving me the opportunity to explain as I don't want any misconceptions to be made.
Heidi
-
Somehow I see it as having to be much harsher.
I do too, isn't there a saying that sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never leave you.
Rom 5:2-4 "2. through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3. Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4. perseverance, character; and character, hope.…"
Heidi
-
At this time we remain in the wilderness somewhere between Egypt and the Promised Land.
And it is in this wilderness that the accuser now comes to persecute the woman (church)
Who is this church?
Revelation 12:12 says,
12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
Ephesians 6:12
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
This is a spiritual persecution that I contend with daily, and some days are harder than others. We are in a spiritual battle against the forces of evil, not in a battle against the physical powers. What could be harder than this?
-
The following is from an older thread where Dave from Tennessee posted something I think will help in the understanding of persecution. Im about half way through the study on the scriptures he suggested, and think it's extremely benifical. Thanks Dave!
Dave
I'm just going to post these here for anybody without e-sword or such:
Persecute
G1377
διώκω
diōkō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away
2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
2a) to press on: figuratively of one who in a race runs swiftly to reach the goal
2b) to pursue (in a hostile manner)
3) in any way whatever to harass, trouble, molest one
3a) to persecute
3b) to be mistreated, suffer persecution on account of something
4) without the idea of hostility, to run after, follow after: someone
5) metaphorically, to pursue
5a) to seek after eagerly, earnestly endeavour to acquire
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged (and causative) form of a primary verb dio (to flee; compare the base of G1169 and G1249)
Citing in TDNT: 2:229, 177
That's what the word means. We know by the "persecution" events what actually took place. Here's a list of scripture where the word appears. I challenge you to look them all up and read around them as well, and to "replace" the word "persecution" or "persecute" with the main "definitions" above. There's 48 of them. That's a lot, I know...but this topic has come up so frequently over the years I think a good study is worth it.
Let's take this word out of the mouths of preachers. Let's own it.
G1377
διώκω
diōkō
Total KJV Occurrences: 48
persecuted, 13
Mat_5:10, Mat_5:12, Joh_15:20, Act_7:52, Act_22:4, Act_26:11, 1Co_4:12, 1Co_15:9, 2Co_4:9, Gal_1:13, Gal_1:23, Gal_4:29, Rev_12:13
follow, 8
Luk_17:23, Rom_14:19, 1Co_14:1, Phi_3:12, 1Th_5:15, 1Ti_6:11, 2Ti_2:22, Heb_12:14
persecute, 8
Mat_5:11, Mat_5:44, Mat_10:23, Mat_23:34, Luk_21:12, Joh_5:16, Joh_15:20, Rom_12:14
persecutest, 6
Act_9:4-5 (2), Act_22:7-8 (2), Act_26:14-15 (2)
persecution, 3
Gal_6:11-12 (2), 2Ti_3:12
suffer, 3
Gal_6:11-12 (2), 2Ti_3:12
followed, 2
Rom_9:30-31 (2)
after, 1
Rom_14:19
ensue, 1
1Pe_3:11
given, 1
Rom_12:13
persecuting, 1
Phi_3:6
press, 1
Phi_3:14
-
Here's the first scripture listed.
Matthew 5:10
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
With substituded definitions
Matthew 5:10
10 Blessed are those who press on to reach the goal because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Or
Blessed are those who eagerly seek after righteousness for their's is the kingdom of heaven.
-
Wanda, you may well be right that that is a better translation of that verse. I say so because Jesus is preaching/teaching his disciples. I noticed a few months ago that what we know as "the beatitudes" are split between "blessed are THEY" and "blessed are YOU". In the previous "chapter", multitudes from all over were pressing towards Jesus and he retreated with his disciples to the mountain. I think this is the "they" Jesus was talking ABOUT, which spiritually signifies the world He came to save. In talking about "THEM", he said "Blessed are THEY which hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." Is there a spiritual scriptural match to that statement? I think so...in Romans. "...the creation is groaning...".
I do NOT mean to imply that the "YOU" are not subject to harassment, persecution, insults, put to flight, etc. They will haul YOU out of the synagogue and kill YOU thinking they are doing God a favor. Stephen and Paul faced genuine persecution (and Saul dished it out as well). But I think we should let each scripture say what it says and not always conflate the meanings.
-
Ray stated that persecution can only come from others. Would that include Satan?
In my life only a few times have someone mocked me for my believes. It was only words and they only have the power to hurt if you allow it. I think Ray considered people attaching him for his faith as persecution. Somehow I see it as having to be much harsher.
Doug
People lied about Ray, set traps for him, and did other things that I think count as "persecution" beyond attacking his "faith". At least some of the ones I know about didn't come from those in the regular churches.
There may be a division of labor between Satan and his ministers, but I'm not too bothered with it. There has probably never been a time someone has mocked me for my beliefs, but that may be because I am not "mockable". I'm often wrong, and (when graced) open to change, but I don't hold these things solely in my head...they are burned into my life, most of which was lived before I knew any of them. Hurtful words don't cut that deep, and I have much bigger fish to fry than defending myself.
-
Hello family
I am doing a study on Speaking in tongues and came across this statement by Ray.
Quote”
Remember that it is usage that determines the real meaning of words.Dictionaries and the study
of etymology can be big helps , but in the end ,it is the usage that gives us the best definition.
And the more and different ways that we can see a word used, the more precisely we can see it’s
true meaning.
Thank you everyone for your definitions. I went through them all , but I noticed one in particular
from Heidi’s post that caught my eye. Quote” from the OX Dictionary.” The VICTIMS of religious
persecution. I did a search on the word victim from Vocabulary.com and this is the result.
Pain, physically and mentally, to feel pain, to suffer, to endure, affliction, etc. We know all the
meaning of this words.
The meanings in scriptures can go on and on and on, ie., downfall ,loss of power prosperity
or status, casting down, dismay.
Job said to his friends.
“For now ye are nothing, ye see my casting down and are afraid.”
Christ was persecuted but He was not a victim. He did the Fathers will as commishened.
As will God’s called and chosen.
We suffer for Christ, and rejoice in the honour to suffer in His name. We do this with love,
loyalty, devotion and the faith of Christ, we obey all commands in Spirit and Truth.
So many scriptures come to mind
Matt.5:48– Therefore you shall be perfect.
2Sam.22:33– God is my strength and power and He makes my way perfect.
Long- suffering comes to mind .God would not put us through anything He did not go through
Himself. Thank you Lord. You are perfect.
In Christ
Pamela 💕
-
Wanda, you may well be right that that is a better translation of that verse. I say so because Jesus is preaching/teaching his disciples. I noticed a few months ago that what we know as "the beatitudes" are split between "blessed are THEY" and "blessed are YOU
".
This is what I see too Dave, but think that could have clouded my judgment, and I got careless. Further into this study I don't think the alternate translation fits the point Jesus was making with "They and You", if we read both verse 10 and 11, and take the narritive of Matt.5 into consideration
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Also, I checked all translations with the exception of JMNT which is why I started to question myself and what Jesus was really saying. First in verse 10 Jesus is saying "They" will be persecuted, and continues that point with "You" will be persecuted in verse 11.
Matt. 5: JMNT
10 "Those being ones having been pressed forward, chased or persecuted for the sake of fairness, equity,[covenant] relationships or justice which comes from the Way pointed out[are] happy and blessed because the reign of the heavens continually belongs to them (or: for the kingdom of the heavens is continuing to pertain to them; because the reign and sovereign activities from the atmosphere and sky is being a source in and for them.
Compare the above translation with verse ten, with the alternate translation.
10 Blessed are those who press on to reach the goal because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Although this didn't influence me, the above translation is similar to what Paul says in Philippians 3: and is clearly not what Jesus was teaching in verse 10.
14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
But I think we should let each scripture say what it says and not always conflate the meanings.
Good advice.