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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: space.ace.jase on August 05, 2012, 12:15:25 AM
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Hi BT family,
Just wanted to post a thread asking for some wisdom on what prayer is all about to get some more understanding on this matter.
First this is basically my understanding of prayer (Thanks for Rays paper on prayer - http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm):
- "God has never ever answered a prayer that WASN'T FIRST PRAYED!" (Quote from Ray)
- We should pray asking his will be done
- Prayer should be in private
- God is sovereign, we never change his mind
From one email that Ray answers he says:
"But we don't know what a new day will bring, and so we pray. Many if not most of God's ways seem strange to we humans. We are not yet on His level of wisdom and spirituality. God wants to hear from us. God wants His children to talk to Him about all their needs and desires. God wants to hear us thank Him for all He has given us."
"If God has determined to heal or bless someone because you or someone else prayed for it, then you will HAVE to pray that prayer in order for God to answer it, and therefore, prayer is never in vain unless we are not praying according to God's rules."
I guess my question is why? Why is it only by prayer that God does these things? Should I be praying for each person individually or can I pray "Father please help everyone"? Is this wrong? I have had more and more people asking me to pray for them but should be I spending the time to pray for each and every person? I guess my question is not asking whether or not prayer is pointless (it's not pointless) but rather why does God use prayer from us and others to do his will? Is it to humble us in that we have to pray because we are so dependent on God? Don't get my wrong I LOVE talking to God (the only one who knows me through and through) but I guess the idea that if I don't pray for other people God may not do it seems strange?
I hope my questions are not too blunt or offensive but I am truly trying to come to a greater understanding on prayer.
Thank you,
Jase
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Great post. I will take a stab at it and I pray it uplifts you. Prayer is a form of a worship. Actually worship (proskuneō) and to pray (proseuchomai) are close related words in the greek, that to pray is worship and to worship is to pray. Seeing that even Jesus said God's House to be a house of PRAYER (Mat 21:13) - prayer and worship are close. While here on earth, we are earthy, in flesh and God is spirit: and the only PLACE and HOW to worship Him is IN SPIRIT and in TRUTH (John 4:24). Why prayer?? well, why worship? Why adore God and express we love Him? I mean we already cant see him, its tough enough we're surrounded by carnal materials, beautiful sights to the eyes, lustful cravings; in this calling, I NEED to stay connected to Him, that he'll keep me in perfect peace. Prayer is truly ONE of the main ways, if not the only way. and as far as praying for other people? well, that's where Love comes in. Love is "Fruit of the spirit" (Gal 5:22) as well as gentleness and goodness. If you're led of the spirit, your love for the well being of that person just cross over to your PRAYER FOR that person and for their wellbeing. They may not know God on your level, and since we are to be disciples of Christ, indwelling of His mighty Spirit, anointed with His glory; prayer for someone, or better yet, Worship TOWARDS God for someone is to me; the definition of Love. Let's see..... if my dad had ALL i needed for me and my many many brothers and sisters, i mean, EVERYTHING we needed; but we had to go to Him for anything. And my lost brother asks me to "pray for him" or ask dad for him to bless him with something --- where i am in maturity; for my LOVE FOR HIM, i would cry to my dad to help him. CAUSE I KNOW HE CAN. Whether He will, that's a different case. But the fact we express Love for that person (in words and a plea), our affection will be heard. Same case; God knows ALL in ALL about ALL of ALL. But we are weak creatures, natural fleshly creatures that cannot discern things of the spirit. As we pray or worship IN spirit, we intercede on peoples behalf. I see prayer being very important. Seeing that worship is just as important. After all of that.
"Let brotherly love continue" (Hebrews 13:1)
and
"... it BEHOVES, IT IS NECESSARY and BINDING always to pray" (Luke 18:1)
Eugene
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Not too blunt and not offensive. We've got to work through these things. I'm only part-way there, but here's a thought.
"I guess the idea that if I don't pray for other people God may not do it seems strange?"
God both knows and does His will. Your prayer is NOT outside His will. Everything is caused, no doubt. The effect of the cause is ALSO part of the cause of the next effect. When we are led, asked, agree to, are caused in any way to pray then God answers. We're not "changing His mind" when we pray because He already knows the need and the answer. But part of the need and the answer is for us to pray.
So pray. And learn to pray according to the rules He set down. The first blessing is for you, though it may not be the one you are expecting.
Is that what you meant by 'seems strange'?
If God is working in you to both to will and to do His good pleasure (and don't worry--He IS) then you will pray every time He wants you to pray. He's got His own reasons for doing things the way He does. This world is way too complicated for us to figure out where every strand comes from and is going to.
So pray.
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I have also seen it this way, God by his spirit may inspire you to pray for someone you know nothing about,but with groaning the spirit prays thru you ... Never understood that scripture too well,
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
PRAY WITHOUT CEASING...
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Eugene- I guess I hadn't really seen that before, prayer as a form of worship. Thank you for the reply I will keep reading with this in mind.
Dave- sorry my questions were pretty vague I guess my real question is why does God inspire me to pray for others to then do what he has planned in the life of others. I mean I'm just a sinful beast why me I cant do anything right. Guess I'm trying to understand the mind of God a little more ... Which is pretty silly (his ways are higher than our ways). Thanks Dave I'm slowly getting there I think.. I hope :D
Ian- yes It is kind of baffling isn't it.. That we do not know what to pray for (that we do not know what must be)
Thanks guys I'll spend some more time asking God for his understanding on this!
God bless,
Jase
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I don't know if this thread is finished but I've been following it, just haven't known what to say till now:
What's prayer all about?
First -- at it's core prayer is that inner dialogue that streams through your head all day everyday.
Prayer is NOT always petitioning God.
Sometimes prayer is simply thanking God.
I'm not an expert on prayer but I know this: Whatever is on our mind at any given moment -- that's like a prayer. It's that inner dialogue that's constantly streaming through my head all day and sometimes all night. There are times when I'm making a conscious effort to direct my thoughts and petitions to God.
This next scripture verse always makes me laugh a little because I wind up with this stereotypical mental image of a Buddhist "monk" chanting prayer, or the person speaking in "tongues"; when in reality it's me pacing the proverbial floor when I'm upset or nervous about something talking to God and begging Him for what *I* want, over and over and over again. It's something I'm still working on.
Matt: 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
And if the people coming to me with prayer requests are expecting me to be all tied in knots and in God's face 24/7 until they get what they want, boy oh boy have I got news for you.
For me it's not getting down on my literal knees and all tied up in knots.
Sometimes it does feel like a burden to be asked by lots of people to pray for them. So, first I get totally honest with God and say, Guess what? I really feel overwhelmed by their problem-Thy will be done. And sometimes I'll say, Guess what, God? I'm not really feeling it-Thy will be done. (Sometimes I'm angry with the subject of the prayer--like those people who persecute and make life a living hell for us sometimes? I know I'm suppose to pray for them, and I just can't. So first I talk to God about how I don't want to pray for them and sometimes I ask others to pray for them.
There are times when I'm in an actual conversation with God and all but most of the time it's a quick - Thy will be done. Please comfort this person because mentally and emotionally I personally am not able to go there. And God understands my weakness. \
Here's a great prayer that I pray for myself when I'm in a bind and I'm learning to say it for others too: "God, I thank You in advance for what You're about to do in this person's life."
Then I go on with my usual inner dialogue. And God makes me more and more aware of His presence. It's comforting.
:)
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Hi Gina,
I hope this thread isn't over :P I'd still love to hear from anyone else.
I think I've gotten to the point of praying the same thing over and over and it feels a bit impersonal I guess "Father please do this if it be your will, father please do that if it be your will", and with more people asking for prayer which I have no problem doing I have actually written up a list of people to pray for :-[ It just seems so silly so I want to go back to the scripture and look at what God says about prayer.
Parable of the Persistent Widow
1One day Jesus told his disciples a story to show that they should always pray and never give up. 2“There was a judge in a certain city,” he said, “who neither feared God nor cared about people. 3A widow of that city came to him repeatedly, saying, ‘Give me justice in this dispute with my enemy.’ 4The judge ignored her for a while, but finally he said to himself, ‘I don’t fear God or care about people, 5but this woman is driving me crazy. I’m going to see that she gets justice, because she is wearing me out with her constant requests!’”
6Then the Lord said, “Learn a lesson from this unjust judge. 7Even he rendered a just decision in the end. So don’t you think God will surely give justice to his chosen people who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?”
I am reading Luke 18 which is where this verse is from and I guess I have given up in a way. Then in verse 17 Jesus says "I tell you the truth, anyone who doesn’t receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.” Maybe I'm just making this far too complicated than it should be-- keep it simple like a child would I guess. Actually I was searching the forum yesterday and I found this thread (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4979.msg38870.htm). I laughed at the part "Oh, yes, I know that He can do everything; the Bible says so. But there are limits, aren't there?
Anyway I think I'm making some kind of progress .. like Dave said if God wants me to pray for something he will cause me to pray.
Thanks everyone,
Jase
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Hi Jase,
I guess my real question is why does God inspire me to pray for others to then do what he has planned in the life of others. I mean I'm just a sinful beast why me I cant do anything right.
Your question brings up an important point. Yes God is sovereign and in ultimate control of all things, but He works through His chosen and Jesus said we should "love your neighbor as yourself."
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
v. 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
But if God has everything already planned out and as you say, "I'm just a sinful beast why me I cant do anything right"? That's true for all of us, but God is teaching us how to care for others as much as we do for ourselves. Now one way that we all can show love and concern for others is to seek God on their behave in prayer. Giving a few mins of our time in prayer is the least we can do for another, as it requires nothing physical but our time and concern.
So if we are the elect and will one day reign with Christ... we are now being made into the image of God, so we too must learn to love others, as God loves all His creatures. Praying for someone is one way we are learning to love others.
John 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 12:1).
I don't mean to play fast and loose with scripture, but I think there is spiritual agreement here. Doesn't it please God by the obedience of praying to answer?
And don't confuse 'cause' with 'force'. Though He is not averse to using force, often the 'cause' is much, much more gentle.
While it's true that you will pray when He causes it, it's just as true that when you pray, He caused it. So pray. Don't try to figure it (God's will) out, just don't take credit for it. ;D
Do good.
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Yeah, Dave's right - No use in worrying about praying.
What Kat said has me thinking of Martha and Mary the sisters of Lazarus who was sick to the point of death, they sent for Jesus and this is what He does:
John 11
3 So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.”
4 But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So, when he heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.
And then we all know how the story ends and Lazarus is raised from the dead.
But it's interesting in how it parallels what you said about how God inspires you to pray for certain people only for them to go on to do the thing that was God's will for their lives.
And I truthfully consider Martha and Mary's sending for Jesus to heal Lazarus a prayer request in the flesh. :) Right? ;D
And so many times we send for Jesus and then He delays only for us to see things not turn out the way we'd hoped.
That may not help, so I'll ask that God bind any further spirits of confusion so you can have rest from your dilemma and a complete understanding of the purpose of prayer.
God bless you, Space.
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"It's that inner dialogue that's constantly streaming through my head all day and sometimes all night".
Gina,
Now there's something - "fits in with groanings" "I" never pray with groanings but somtimes say lying in bed, my thoughts, I am completly broken up, not neccesary groaning outwardly but inside ,in a big "heap" weeping and wailing so much so that if i get up i relise i'm actualy crying finding my face is all wet as is my pillow...like in a semi dream but awake .
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:'( Yes, I can relate to that.
Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
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Hello,
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Many of your teachings series are confusing and in conflict within. For example the one referenced above clearly underscores our Almighty God's pre-existing plans for all which is to be. However, you than offer suggestions which infer that what you they will somehow change results and relationship with Him!
Thinks for your labor of love and testimony. There is no reason for you to respond and I do not expect you to do so.
Best Wishes in Christ Jesus,
Hobe
Dear Hobe: You are not paying close attention to what I have written, and you have not studied such important papers of mine such as "The Myth of Free Will Exposed." Don't feel bad, however, as hardly anyone can comprehend this teaching. Let me make it as simple as I can. God already knows and has declared the "END FROM THE BEGINNING" (Isa. 46:10). Therefore nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING can ever change from what God ALWAYS KNEW WILL BE.
Now hold that Scriptural thought and don't ever let it go! Next comes the more difficult part for most to believe and understand.
Things that God knows WILL HAPPEN, don't JUST happen without His sovereign direction. Therefore, some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them. Ah, but that is where I lost you and most others as well. I repeat: Some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them to happen. Does that mean that if you had NOT PRAYED for them they would NOT have happened. Exactly. Isn't that what I just said? Well then, just how can God KNOW what will happen if you DON'T pray for something to happen that He knows MUST HAPPEN? Whether it happens or doesn't happen in this case all hinges on WHETHER YOU PRAY FOR IT OR NOT. So how can God know FOR SURE? If God WANTS something to happen through a prayer of yours, and God KNOWS that something will happen IF YOU PRAY for it, guess what?
GOD WILL SEE TO IT THAT Y-O-U D-O P-R-A-Y F-O-R I-T! And this is exactly what God teaches in the Scriptures. Now can you see and understand it?
Here's another example:
1Co 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
Now then, FOUR things need to happen for this Scripture to come true.
1. People must "believe."
2. Therefore God must give these people "faith."
3. They must hear the needed preaching.
4. God must provide for "the foolishness of preaching" through people like me.
Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
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I have often wondered about this verse reguarding prayer:
Joh 17:9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
I too struggle with prayer.....i have become very discouraged at times and resolved to ONLY pray "thy will be done"...
(i suspect because i am inwardly angry and don't approve of the way God is working all things out....a bad attitude
that i must often repent of)
but then i can't contain myself and spill my heart out to God for all that i 'wish' could be.....and then end with 'not
my will but Thy will be done.' ;)
It IS humbling to have to ask for EVERYTHING....but acknowleding that God REALLY is in control of every little detail
of every life is also part of the process i think...
I am also learning to NOT pray the 'save' myself or others from the trial, but to give the strength to ENDURE whatever
He has determined must be.
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hello.lauriellen...This may help you!.......I have often wondered about this verse reguarding
Church?
« on: April 05, 2006, 10:11:52 AM »
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babylon is the world system, education, religion and ecconomic.
education: lies with in them, you know what they are! evolution, etc.
religoun: eternal tormant and all the rest of false doctrines every religion has them, Christ in you is our religion.
economic: get rich brings happiness,,etc.
everyone of these mixes truth with lies.
((((chosen out of the world))))) not the "church'
overcome the world not overcome the church.
if Christ is in you!!! he overcame it Wink
Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world
Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have (((((((chosen you out of the world)))))), therefore the world hateth you.
there is plenty more Wink
peace
chuckt
Dear Chuck:
Wrong. The "world" IS the Church, first and foremost. Secondarily it is the global world of nations and politics.
When Jesus said that He overcame "the world," certainly both aspects are covered (John16:33). A few verses later when Jesus said: "While I was with them in the WORLD, I kept them in Your Name..." (John 17:12), He is speaking of the religion of the Jews--the church. Jesus was not with the disciples in China or Russia, but in Judea which was religious to the core. EVERYONE was religious. ALL Jews of Judea were followers of Moses in some form or fashion.
"They are not of the WORLD [the religion of their own people in their own country Judea], even as I was not of the world...As You have sent Me into the world [not the nations, not the politics of Rome, etc.], EVEN SO [in the very same way] I also sent them into the world [the original apostles did not take the gospel to the Gentiles of the world]" (Verse 16 & 18).
Verse 24: "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the world [here again is the broader sense of the whole "kosmos" which involved the entire social order of mankind.
So, Yes, the word world in Scripture has the specific meaning of the Church or the Religion of the day.
God be with you,
Ray
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I may be wrong but I think the results of prayer are contengent on our faith. That is to say we pray because we believe and God is the one who drags us to him I'm order that we my believe. He knows what we will pray for and has already determined what he will do beforehand. I believe there is a circular nature to spirituality that God has put d created things with such confidence and foresight. One thing reinforces the other so therefore it must happen in such and such a manner. Our ability to pray comes from him enabling us to pray correctly so it's axiomatic that the prayer is answered.
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All prayer is answered. It's just not answered the way we want.
Jesus prayed that the cup of suffering would be taken from Him. The Father's answer was no.
When I understood that Jesus' request was turned down, I knew I was screwed. If He told Jesus no, I knew He wouldn't hesitate to tell me NO.
So now, all my prayers are Your (The Father) Will Be Done because I do not know my coming out or going in. So now all my prayers are answered; I have a 100% success rate.
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All prayer is answered. It's just not answered the way we want.
Jesus prayed that the cup of suffering would be taken from Him. The Father's answer was no.
When I understood that Jesus' request was turned down, I knew I was screwed. If He told Jesus no, I knew He wouldn't hesitate to tell me NO.
So now, all my prayers are Your (The Father) Will Be Done because I do not know my coming out or going in. So now all my prayers are answered; I have a 100% success rate.
well just to comment on this, with the words of ray....
"There are many cliches regarding prayer, and some are absolutely true. It is said that God has one of three answers for all prayers: "Yes, No, or Later." This is basically, albeit not totally true. This one might be closer to the truth: "Your way, My way, or No way."
so, what you did remind me of is that ALL prayers are answered. But the Father's answer to Jesus wasnt exactly no; it was firmly, "HIS WAY" or His will. So i take from that, God doesnt say "no" to my prayers but simply, he's going to work it through and to me HIS WAY. Or simply, i will succomb to my carnal ways and follow my ways. And as scripture states, " There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Pro 14:12). So either God's way, in His timing or in season; or our way, ways of death, sin, and carnality, works of the flesh; or simply no way. But like you said, ALL PRAYERS ARE ANSWERED. amen to that.
Eugene
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The more people I come into contact with -- and I don't even have to be talking with them or even know them -- I'm finding that I have no problem praying without ceasing.
There was this lady who was sitting at the gas station waiting for her car to be repaired and I looked at her sitting there and she didn't look like she was made of money and even though her repairs might not have been anything serious -- maybe she was just getting an oil change -- I looked at her and just said a little prayer that the mechanic would be good to her and not overcharge her or take advantage of her.
Ray told me once in an email response that whenever he would see or hear ambulances going down the road he'd say a prayer. I thought that was pretty cool. More and more I do stuff like that when I'm out and stuff.
Even here on line at the forum I'm finding there are many times that I can pray for someone and they don't even have to ask.
But again, it's mostly just me thinking over the situation as I see it and then saying "thy will be done" but I try to imagine that "His will" is the best possible outcome, even if it doesn't immediately put a smile on everybody's faces. You know what I'm saying?
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All prayer is answered. It's just not answered the way we want.
Jesus prayed that the cup of suffering would be taken from Him. The Father's answer was no.
When I understood that Jesus' request was turned down, I knew I was screwed. If He told Jesus no, I knew He wouldn't hesitate to tell me NO.
So now, all my prayers are Your (The Father) Will Be Done because I do not know my coming out or going in. So now all my prayers are answered; I have a 100% success rate.
Precisely!
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All prayer is answered. It's just not answered the way we want.
Jesus prayed that the cup of suffering would be taken from Him. The Father's answer was no.
When I understood that Jesus' request was turned down, I knew I was screwed. If He told Jesus no, I knew He wouldn't hesitate to tell me NO.
So now, all my prayers are Your (The Father) Will Be Done because I do not know my coming out or going in. So now all my prayers are answered; I have a 100% success rate.
[/quote]
Hey John
Ive lost you ........ all my prayers are YOUR [the Father] ....100% sucess rate - what did you say here ?
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All prayer is answered. It's just not answered the way we want.
Jesus prayed that the cup of suffering would be taken from Him. The Father's answer was no.
When I understood that Jesus' request was turned down, I knew I was screwed. If He told Jesus no, I knew He wouldn't hesitate to tell me NO.
So now, all my prayers are Your (The Father) Will Be Done because I do not know my coming out or going in. So now all my prayers are answered; I have a 100% success rate.
Hey John
Ive lost you ........ all my prayers are YOUR [the Father] ....100% sucess rate - what did you say here ?
[/quote]
Hi Ian,
All my prayers are answered because there is only one type of prayer that I pray. And that prayer is the Father's will be done. Therefore, every one of my prayers is answered. God gives me what I ask for every time. Thus a 100% success rate. 8)
The scriptures also speak of praying without ceasing. Continuous prayer. I am always in contact with God. Sometimes I speak. Sometimes I am quiet. Sometimes I just roll scriptures over in my mind; some I understand; some are a mystery. But when the line is kept open with God you are never alone and have a profound peace. Jesus spoke of this. Ray has an article on prayer which is very good.
John
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Not sure if you're speaking personally, John but if you are, Congrats!
If I however were to state that all prayers are answered, I would be glib or dishonest.
Case in point, my cousin Garth who died two years ago from brain cancer after a prolonged illness.
I had prayed God's will be done in that situation, yes. So from that viewpoint the prayer was answered as God's will was done even though Garth died.
I had also constantly prayed that Garth would be healed and not die, yet Garth died.
So in one way my prayer was answered; while my prayer from my heart that he be healed and live, was not.
Wow, I wish that I were in contact with God 'always'. When I am engaged in watching a movie or having a beer or feeling pain in my back and knee, I don't think I am praying. I wish I were, but in all honesty... nah
How do you speak if not personally?
In February 2005, my father collapsed, never regained consciousness, and died a month later. I didn't want him to die. I miss him very much. I didn't know how to heal him so I left it in God's hands and asked that God's will be done. God answered my prayer.
The LORD gives. The LORD takes. Praise be to the LORD.
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So with all this said; Prayer is Worship that keeps in fellowship with God. We don't know God's doings, we wont know. But if we pray ALWAYS that His Will Be Done; are prayers are always answered and at the same time, depending on maturity, we're COMFORTED at the SOVEREIGNTY of God. Well I am. Knowing that I that DONT have a free will, I am not the captain of my fate or whatever, i am not the decider of my future; and that Prayer is the ONLY way I can commune with the Almighty God....THAT IS WHAT PRAYER IS ALL ABOUT. And not just that, While we worship in Spirit and Truth, Jesus abides in us and we have the earnest of the Spirit, which is truth and of truth, we have a taste of the life to come. We become inspired by God, influenced of His Grace, strength for the day, force to live; that's why Paul admonished us to pray without ceasing and to pray in everything. Our flesh is strengthless, and we can succomb to that weakness without practice -- prayer is the principle for us. So all in all
"Your Will Be done Lord"
Eugene
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Ah ok thanks John - what is the prayer of faith/offered in faith ? spoken of in James 5 15
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Ah ok thanks John - what is the prayer of faith/offered in faith ? spoken of in James 5 15
I do not know.
Faith is belief. All prayers are prayers of faith because to pray to God you must believe that He exists and is the Sovereign God and He hears and answers all prayer according to His will, not our own will.
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Ah ok thanks John - what is the prayer of faith/offered in faith ? spoken of in James 5 15
Good question. I did a look on that verse; and that word is not the usual word for "Prayer". Its used only 3 times (i believe), and it's translated VOW 2 other times. maybe that's important??? "vow of prayer"
eugene
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Yeh fits with what John said to Pray without ceasing
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When do thoughts become a "prayer"? How do you know its not just rambling synapses in the brain? Do you have to formally say "dear" jesus, heavenly father or whatever, to officially count?
A kabillion people are "thinking" prayers that are all just in their head. We are all praying for world peace or healings or riches yet, yet, not getting answered. 2 teams playing a sport, both sides have christians "praying"-
It is ALL Gods' Will---our thoughts just make US feel better or like we are actually doing something to help someone
obviously I am having trouble w/ all this---I do like the worship/prayer greek meaning being so similar..helps me understand Paul telling us to pray w/o ceasing when that is impossible to do!!
I like the idea of living my life AS THE prayer...I don't need to bless my veggies before i eat cuz i am always greatful to God for His blessings...I trust Him and His plan so I don't beg/think thoughts about it...well, that is what i am working on anyway.....thanks for letting me get this out in print...if you take it off i understand i guess...as usual i am trying to let rays' work guide me thru this
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No worries, Gena. Grant it, not every thought is inspired by the Holy Spirit. :)
Check this out: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13787.msg121567.html#msg121567
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg116701.html#msg116701:
It’s not wrong to say ‘grace’ or whatever. But I don’t bow my head and say these vocal prayers out loud when I eat a sandwich. I’m always thankful for what I have. I’m always praying, all day every day. There isn’t a day goes by that I don’t pray 50-60 times or 70-80 times, I just pray. My thoughts are prayers, my meditation is prayers, I just think like God is there, that’s the way that I think, .
I’ve told you that God is Spirit, He’s everywhere. He’s not sitting up there on a throne where you have to raise your voice so He hears you. So if you are praying silently… like I put in that paper that I wrote on prayer, ‘Praying by God’s Rules,’ I pray myself to sleep virtually every night of my life. That’s how I go to sleep, I don’t count sheep, I pray myself to sleep.
Last night I’m praying about today, praying about what I should talk about. You know, ‘help me give these people something worthy to take back home with them, so they will be really glad that they came and feel that they profited spiritually.’ I just pray about that and I pray about it and prayer goes into meditation and meditation goes back into prayer and pretty soon I’m asleep. Then I wake up and I don’t remember when I fell asleep, but all I know is I prayed myself to sleep.
~L. Ray Smith
(Emphasis my own.)
Matt: 6:7-15 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this [in other words, this is HOW we are to pray--meaning, this must be our mindset and the place from where we are coming in our hearts when we do pray; Jesus isn't laying down the precise wording we are to use when we pray.]:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Jesus said: And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matt 21:22
Admittedly, I don't quite have that one figured out yet, but my humble opinion which may not be worth a hill of beans (or enough for a cup of coffee, Craig? ;) ) is this: In order to really believe you're going to get from God what you're asking for it has to be with the understanding that we are praying for what ACCORDS WITH GOD'S WILL, we aren't to be praying in anger (or against someone); and we must be honest and realize that whatever we may be asking for we may not get it instantaneously as we were once led to believe.
I really hope that helps. I didn't mean to mislead anyone about thoughts equaling prayers.
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Aha I was/have been asking our Lord what I should pray about regarding certain things going down right now,also have in mind not to be repetitive,
Dave quoted a scripture yesterday on a totaly different topic which caused my whole inside to leap and this is it
Joh 4:47 The man heard that Jesus had come from Judea and was now in Galilee. So he went to Jesus and begged him to come to Capernaum and heal his son, who was almost dead.
Joh 4:48 Jesus said to him, "You people must see miraculous signs and wonders before you will believe in me." My Prayer is that we all begin to see Miraculous signs and wonders as is the case with the official in the above scripture - point Jesus is making [I think] is we need to see miracles or we will not believe
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I must confess that my prayer life really sucks at times. I seem to go thru dry spells; am I just lazy? probably; it seems my prayers get repititious (years) or I just don't seem to have a passion to pray; then I read or hear something or feel guilty and begin to pray again. I'm sure there are many like myself. So is it the work of the "Holy spirit" bringing me back? as it is the Holy spirit that leads us in what to pray about.
I thank God that He doesn't feel too tired to be bothered!! and doesn't give up on me.
Thanks for this thread.
PS:when my sister-in-law was dying of cancer we prayed for her and her "church" prayed, etc. She became very discouraged because she had heard of other successful outcomes but she wasn't getting better; she stated "so why bother praying, it's not helping me." She did not understand prayer and yet her son was a minister in the "church". My heart went out to her and to others that don't understand.
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Hi Ian. It's not about lack of signs, its about lack of faith.
BELIEVE that I am in the Father and the Father in me. Or IF NOT, believe me for the works sake.
The miraculous signs were given NOT for those who believe, but for those who do NOT believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
I'm not a big fan of miracles. To be honest, I wish there were fewer miracles in Scripture. Sorry, just telling the truth. The only miracle I need for my real life is resurrection, otherwise everything is pointless. I 'believe' in the miracles, but the only good they do me is as symbols of SPIRITUAL things in my life. They've also done me good in helping me to come out of babylon, as MANY will come in His name doing signs and wonders and will decieve the world.
I prayed for Ray to be healed completely. I believe, however, that this corruption MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal MUST put on immortality.
WHATEVER your position, own it. What God requires is honesty.
Here's my miracle. It works for me. For twenty years I had left the church and left all concious effort to fellowship with God. Indeed, as far away as I could be was where I wanted to be. He never left me, however, even when I wanted Him to. I had a heart attack. Very nearly died, and was weak for months afterward. Still didn't want to follow God. But one night I thought to pray. I hadn't prayed in ten years, and as far as I knew, I wouldn't pray again for another ten.
So I prayed and asked God for a new heart. Pretty dang bold for a guy who hadn't prayed in a decade, but I figured I might as well go for broke. Oh the headlines that would inspire. "GOD Gives Tennessee Man New Heart".
It was a few more years from that, and about four and one half years ago from now, I stumbled onto B-T and God answered my prayer. I didn't even know then that he had, and it wasn't until I 'looked back' that I could see it.
Joh 20:28,29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
That's what I meant in that post.
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i just re read thread....i don't think we answered the original question:
If we "pray" that it be according to God's Will and He always DOES His Will---then I still dont know what is prayer all about?
why bother to pray?? we believe God and all is according to His will- what is there to pray about....really, get right down to it, peel away the onion layers as it were, put aside religiousity and debating.....it just makes us feel better.
I can't figure out why Jesus told us (or was it just to the jews?) to......i don't need any more scriptures to read or asking for more debate....maybe there is no answer-if we want to be brutally honest about it...
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i just re read thread....i don't think we answered the original question:
If we "pray" that it be according to God's Will and He always DOES His Will---then I still dont know what is prayer all about?
why bother to pray?? we believe God and all is according to His will- what is there to pray about....really, get right down to it, peel away the onion layers as it were, put aside religiousity and debating.....it just makes us feel better.
I can't figure out why Jesus told us (or was it just to the jews?) to......i don't need any more scriptures to read or asking for more debate....maybe there is no answer-if we want to be brutally honest about it...
GREAT POINT. even though Ive UNLEARNED the freewill myth, praying gives me a false sense of it. I don't even know what to pray for cause it's gonna be whatever His will is. It's comforting and discouraging at the same time. Like now, I prayed for a particular job and that his will would done. Im not eligible for the job so his will is still done, but WHY PRAY if it's anything and everything is gonna happen according to his will anyway????? Don't get me wrong. I STAY in worship, reading, pondering, meditating, giving thanks... But why pray?? Even in his paper on the Fathers Will, Ray gives a newer idea on who God is, the Father and Jesus -- if our relationship to God is how fish relate to water and birds relate to air....WHY PRAY IF GOD IS RIGHT THERE and already knows???? Thats silly for a fish to be praying for anything when the "water" is gonna supply his needs through it's (the water) working. I relate God to "the Force" in "Star Wars". He's only in His elect...but whatever, Praying seems to be useless after knowing God is gonna work everything after the counsel of His will. And
Proverbs 19:21
There are many devices in a man's heart;
nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.
After knowing we don't have a free will, God is Sovereign and almighty - I see the only thing to pray is that His will be done and to walk in His wisdom. Praying for things seem vain. But hey just my thoughts.
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Hi Gena,
i just re read thread....i don't think we answered the original question:
If we "pray" that it be according to God's Will and He always DOES His Will---then I still dont know what is prayer all about?
I think I can understand what you are saying. I can give you what my own preception of prayer is. I think we need as much cantact with God as we can get... we can study to learn what God says in Scripture... meditate on what we have studied, I think our continued thought on it helps us gain a better comprehension... but I think prayer is a important way I can talk to God. Certainly God already knows all of my thoughts and what I will always do, as He is sovereign and the ultimate cause of everything, but I don't know. My contact with Him is a effort to draw closer and seek to understand.
For me prayer is a form of showing Him my love and adoration of Him. It requires me to make an effort, to free my mind of other cares and focus only on God. It takes time to stop what I'm doing and direct my thoughts to God and to me that is showing my respect for who He is and is a form of worship. It's my feeble little way of telling Him how much I love and adore Him and I a way I can give Him thanks for my blessings. Now I do share my hopes and dreams and desires too and a lot of times just organizing these thoughts in my head and voicing these things out to Him helps me put them in perspective and better understand or maybe rethink some things. But really it's just me giving of my time to Him. What good father does not want to hear what their child has to say... and I would think God our Father certainly has that same desire from us.
I think when our mind is focused on spiritual things (study, meditation, prayer) is when we ascend into the heavens. The more time we spend there the better it is for our spiritual development.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave does that then cut short,ask and you will recieve Jas 1:5 Do any of you need wisdom? Ask God for it. He is generous and enjoys giving to everyone. So he will give you wisdom.
Jas 1:6 But when you ask God, you must believe. Don't doubt him. Whoever doubts is like a wave in the sea that is blown up and down by the wind.
I am instructed to ask God - this is prayer and if I do not doubt [pull a thomas] I will get wisdom from God Thomas was dealt with in a lot of grace then because he stated he would Not believe Unlessss...
The disciples saw great miracles does that mean they are unbelieveing?aparently yes, however they had to start somewhere why were these people caused to ask for these miracles? so they would believe ?.
Thomas had to go thru "I will not believe unless I see bit" and we need the same likewise Peter on the rough sea and and and... so they were placed in these circumstances which required prayer likewise we are put in circumstances which require prayer so God placed you in a position to ask for a new heart you prayed and got one so prayer is a must or rather God will cause you to pray , if you are placed in a position to call on our Lord when you have scripture to base your prayer on - Jesus said to the Father "Why have you forsaken me"? when he knew it was Gods will - just saying I think prayer is far more than normal communication although it can be.
Is it possible not to heed God when he tells us to pray ? the disciples fell asleep
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Due to an experience I am going through, I've been noticing something about man's concept of prayer.
My mother is terminally ill and hospice has been called in to assist in her last days. Certain family members have been organizing "prayer requests" and "prayer vigils" from their church members and friends on behalf of my mother. Of course, there is nothing wrong with asking for prayers, but they seem to think the more people they can pull together to pray for my mother, the more likely she will be healed or something. I just find it odd and "weird" how people think they have the "power" to save someones life if enough of them get together and pray for them. :-\
Prayer, to me, is a way to show humility and respect for my Creator. I need Him in every way possible, therefore, I communicate to Him often. I trust Him and depend on Him to sustain me through every moment of my life. He's doing an excellent job, btw! :)
René
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I hear that Rene. I believe that difficult circumstances expose the void and the need for humans to worship a Superior Being, that can only be filled by God.
Another indication to me that God created in man a need for the spiritual ... another piece of evidence that all men will ultimately be saved.
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Due to an experience I am going through, I've been noticing something about man's concept of prayer.
My mother is terminally ill and hospice has been called in to assist in her last days. Certain family members have been organizing "prayer requests" and "prayer vigils" from their church members and friends on behalf of my mother. Of course, there is nothing wrong with asking for prayers, but they seem to think the more people they can pull together to pray for my mother, the more likely she will be healed or something. I just find it odd and "weird" how people think they have the "power" to save someones life if enough of them get together and pray for them. :-\
Prayer, to me, is a way to show humility and respect for my Creator. I need Him in every way possible, therefore, I communicate to Him often. I trust Him and depend on Him to sustain me through every moment of my life. He's doing an excellent job, btw! :)
René
Good way of point that out. It really does seem like man's concept of "prayer" is a concept of "power". Definitely if we get enough people ("where two or three are gathered in my name...), and they "humble themselves and pray" (God would "hear them from the heavens, and forgive heir sins, and heal their land ~ 2Ch 7:14) --- well, put like that, the formula seems to declare "if we gather and pray, God will hear us and heal us".... But what can't be compromised is the Sovereignty of God and His will bein done.....I believe you just gave me the balance. It is "a way to show humility", to humble and hear, and even ask and believe - but always know, "...your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him (Mat 6:8).
So thank you Rene. You helped me on this matter.
Eugene
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Good answers JFK, Kat, Ian.
When I don't know how or what to pray about, I simply start thanking God for what He has done for me. It's just like Ray said, he falls asleep thanking God. And I suddenly find I can pray without ceasing.
Prayer is not about petitioning God always. My friend Gail and I were talking about this last night, and she said: Prayer isn't always about asking God for things. We're told to pray without ceasing, and there's a lot of other things we can communicate with God about.
If you read the Scriptures and you look at yourself and you pray for wisdom, God will show you, He will not disappoint that pray. You will not pray to God to show you your humility your nothing, that he will say, ‘I’m not going to answer that prayer.’ He WILL answer that prayer. If you really want to know who and what you are, He will show you. Then when you have that humble attitude you will be teachable, He will be able to teach you. You will be ready and you will be willing. forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0
I find myself praying more times than not that I do the right thing to the benefit of others around me. Funny how God doesn't always answer that prayer, but there's a reason for that, too. It's like Ray said, We have to get to the point where we hate our sin so much that we beg God to change us. It's like getting a car from your parents as a gift, or working to buy it with your own "sweat and blood." You are less likely to take what you have for granted when you put your heart and soul in it to get it.
(Rene, you are absolutely right! I'm sorry that you and your mom's going through that. I will pray that God greatly comforts her and you and all those who are praying for her. May he give you all rest soon.)
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No, Ian. It doesn't negate James 1:5 and 6.
I'm just saying that I don't need "miraculous signs" to believe. God has given enough of them. I believe now that God does mighty and powerful works even when He is not 'shewing them'. Maybe wisdom, faith and not being 'double-minded' means or includes not requiring my answers to my prayers.
There are a number of things I don't do or say that are 'commanded' because these things are not true of me yet. Top most is that I don't say I love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and mind. Because I don't. But I shall. That's not 'double-minded'. That's faith and truth. Whatever your position, own it.
In the same way, I believe there will be a day I will be able to literally say to the mountain, "Be moved" and it happens. That's not today. That's faith and truth.
I'm not trying to argue with you. If anything, I may be confessing my sins. So be it. I'm not looking for disciples, just joining in the conversation. You have your own row to hoe. :)
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He's only in His elect...but whatever,
From what book chapter and verse does this come?
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He's only in His elect...but whatever,
From what book chapter and verse does this come?
So that's the only thing you point out? Its was just my opinion and of course it's not flawless. But as far His being in His elect...he has to be in His elect for them to be the elect right? (Phil 2:13) sooo
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (this looks like "Jedi knight" training) ;)
Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Am I that far off that God's elect are His chosen, few, and faithful? Not to justify "the force" connection, but God's elect being a peculiar treasure to God, the few is all throughout scripture. But of course, ALL have their being in God but there are the "many and few". So why can't we be Jedi knights?? ;D 8)
Regardless, to stay on topic; everyone is strengthing my understanding on prayer vs the sovereignty of His will. I'll continue to build awareness of His presence, love on him, thank him for everything, acknowledge him in everything - he truly leads to more peace. Prayer is truly for us
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He's only in His elect...but whatever,
From what book chapter and verse does this come?
So that's the only thing you point out? Its was just my opinion and of course it's not flawless. But as far His being in His elect...he has to be in His elect for them to be the elect right? (Phil 2:13) sooo
Almost everyone on this forum is learning.
It was a question that I have been wondering lately and thought perhaps you've found a verse or perhaps an email or paper from Ray that would answer.
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There are a number of things I don't do or say that are 'commanded' because these things are not true of me yet. Top most is that I don't say I love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and mind. Because I don't. But I shall. That's not 'double-minded'. That's faith and truth. Whatever your position, own it.
Dave, I appreciate what you've written here. They're a sort of salve for my soul. If he appreciates honesty he'll find it in your heart since that's where these words came from. Nothing prententious in your words. Sounds like you own your position.
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Perhaps trying to extract your thoughts Dave... Na Not arguing this time
:)
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Here is something I am coming to realize: Suppose three and a half years ago when I was told that my cancer was terminal, that we all prayed and God miraculously healed me, what would I have done? Well, I would have THANKED GOD, THANKED GOD! And I would have pretty much gone back to the same way of living and eating (except for a few dramatic changes, maybe) that I practiced before I came down with cancer. But what if God is leading me and showing me something diametrically opposed to the medical profession and even involving a quantum leap from how most naturalists and naturopaths treat cancer? Now that would be something that could be passed on the many thousands of people by means of our bible-truths site, that would be of more practical benefit to many people even above just adding another miracle to our reader's faith. Miracles are great! Miracles are fun! I like miracles! But there were thousands of people who witnessed the miracles of Jesus, but did not have their lives changed or improved dramatically. Presently I am trusting God that He is going to see me through this nightmare, but maybe in a way that will have a greater benefit for our readers than just being privy to a miracle. I hope that all of you will have the same faith with me. I will inform everyone when I get the date next week for my surgery.
God be with you all,
Ray
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I'm looking at prayer in this light;
According to Isaiah 9:6 One of the Lord's names is COUNSELLOR, prayer is me asking God for his advice among other things. Including praise, thanksgiving, worship, and a host of other things.
If God tells me something and I don't do it, his advice to me was in vain. How many people go to lawyers, psychiatrist, and physicians, spending lots of money and don't do what they are instructed to do? I have a book full of instructions from God.
I am guilty of not praying enough, probally because the answers I might get wouldn't be to my liking.
That's where being lead of the Spirit and staying close to God in prayer is needfull in my life.
Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
I know that Jesus prayed constantly, the early Church prayed as individuals, and as a group. They even sought answers from God by casting lots. ( Acts 1:26 )
Joel