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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sorin on January 11, 2007, 11:40:59 AM
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Ray does a great job of explaining how we don't have 'freedom of the will' and I agree, we can only choose from a number of possible alternatives, and we always end up choosing what God predetermined from the begining of our life that we will choose. I get that part, but what I don't get is, since our lives were predetermined/ pre destinated by God, and everything we do, even what Hitler did was unavoidable because we can not thwart God's plan and purpose, I don't get how we are still held accountable for our actions.
I mean sure if Hitler had free will he probably would not have done what he did. I understand the whole cause and effect thing, and that all our choices are caused, but since they are caused and can not be avoided by us, why are we still accountable for something we had no power over [i.e. stopping the cause from creating an effect].
That's what I don't understand. Sure Ray says we are 'sinning machines' we love to sin and I agree, but he leaves out the cause, we sinned because of the cause, if there were no cause, there would be no effect [sin] and since that cause I would assume comes from God [since he is working all things after the counsel of his own will] then God is absolutely responsible, but I don't see how we are accountable. Because we didn't have the 'freedom' to choose not to sin, or do a certain thing or not. And who can stay God's hand, right?
So yeah, help me out here,
Sorin
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Sorin,
We do not have "Free-Will" but do indeed have "Free-Choice"
However, we are only "Free" in the sense of the confines iimposed by God. We are free, to laugh, smile, cry, hate, work, swim, in fact free to feel any emotion. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we God cannot influence us because we are NOT free of the Will of God. Many may say that if this is true, and if we do have freedom of choice, then we should be able to choose to jump to the Moon, try and then cry foul because they cannot! :)
They missed it though, they chose to jump and they may have even tried; but the laws of physics (put in place by God and controlled by God) prevented them from reaching their Goal.
If they had "Free-Will" as many claim to have, then they would be free to "will" themselves to the moon and "bingo" they would be there.
Does this make sense? I always confused "Free-Will" with "Free-Choice"
Love,
Darren
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Darren,
No, Darren, Ray goes through great lenghts to explain that while we make choices our choices are [always] caused. So, no we don't have 'free-choice' because if we did, we'd have free will. A 'free-choice' is an effect without a cause.
So, I'll rephrase my question, since all are choices are caused, how are we still held accountable for our actions?
Take care,
Sorin
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Hi Sorin,
The way I look at it is, we are accountable because we actually are the one doing it.
God may have caused all the circumstances, but He did not take controll of us and make us do it.
He has given us the means to carry out the physical actions on our own.
Not decide them on our own, but carry them out on our own.
So since we actually do them, we are held accountable, because the actions were done by us.
Does that help any?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Sorin,
I will find the email from Ray that say's we can thinkl, feel, etc. That we are not brainless like trees :)
Darren
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Hi Sorin,
The way I look at it is, we are accountable because we actually are the one doing it.
God may have caused all the circumstances, but He did not take controll of us and make us do it.
He has given us the means to carry out the physical actions on our own.
Not decide them on our own, but carry them out on our own.
So since we actually do them, we are held accountable, because the actions were done by us.
Does that help any?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Possibly our accountability applies only to the fact that we are individuals and are the ones needing to be fixed.
I've really been praying over this wanting to understand the truth.
Lets take a computer program. Lets say I write code and it is designed to give an error message for the purpose of learning how a good computer program should not operate. I execute the program and it gives the error message as it was designed. I am responsible for that error message, I do not hold the computer program responsible. However, the computer program still needs fixed so that it will not give an error. So I have to understand that I have to change (reconcile) the computer program. I can be held responsible for the faulty computer program, I also am responsible for fixing it. However, it still is the individual priogram that I have to change.
I think we take our carnal thinking and continue to relate our accountability to blame. We are not to blame, but it is still us that needs fixed nevertheless.
I think I get it now, or at least till I think about it more and my head explodes once again.
The Lake of Fire FIXES the computer program. :)
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Sorin,
Here is the post between me and Ray about this very subject. :)
I wrote in response to Rays response (below):
Oh Ray,
I do not only believe, but I ALSO KNOW that God is Sovereign and that man does NOT have a Free Will
You actually answered my question (and to this I am VERY grateful)
You state: (Ray)
By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS.
Ray this is all I wanted to know. I am so glad that you say that we are more than CD's
That we can "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., because man is capable of all these things.
I do apologize for causing you any grief, but please know that I have wrestled for a very long time on this very subject and your words echo the very words given me by God, exactly!!!
You have made my day my dear brother. We are on the same page.
WOW!! I'm more than a CD, WhooHoo!!
You have lifted such a huge weight off of my shoulders, thanks be to God.
Love,
Darren
Ray wrote:
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Dear Darren:
I'm sorry, Darren, but your arguments are too superficial to even debate. By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS. And I have 120 pages of Scriptural explanations of this on my site: "The Myth of Free Will Exposed." I know that you don't "approve" of God being Soverign, and you don't "approve" of man not having a free will, but that's just the way it is, and you will have to live with it.
God be with you,
Ray
PS Darren, dominos do not have minds, and emotions, and creativity!! Your analogies are foolish.
[/i]
I hope this helps,
Love,
Darren
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kitty,
My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.
Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.
We are not at liberty to choose to not do something anymore than a window is at liberty to choose to not shatter after [the cause] a rock has been thrown through it.
Do you now understand what I'm asking here?
Take care,
Sorin
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kitty,
My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.
Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.
Do you now understand what I'm asking here?
Take care,
Sorin
You may be questioning the word accountable in perspective to "punishment".
Regaurdless of that take a look at yourself (not saying this in a judgmental way) you feel, you are aware, etc etc.
There is no doubting that we are aware, there is no doubting that we make choices.
However are you perfect? I am not.
What can make you perfect?
You also can take the perspective of bible translations. It is well known that often a translation uses the closest word in that language. I could be wrong about that but I have read at times our english concepts often do not have an exact word to describe that in anothwer language.
That said. We are only accountable in the perspective of needing to be made perfect. Regaurdless of Gods responsibility he still has to do something to us to make us perfect.
Our individuality makes us accountable to be fixed by God.
It has taken me a long time to get this far, be patient.
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I know that Ray writes the papers on Free Will and we have them to refer to, but here on the forum is where the rubber meets the road sort of, and I for one always need these types of posts and replies to refresh my extremely limited understanding of NO FREE WILL. Its like this for me...Oh, ok I get,...I got it....I understand it and see how it works now.....ooops I had it ??? . I greatly appreciate everyone’s input for these kinds of topics.
Peace,
John
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kitty,
My question isn't whether or not we have free will, but rather since we don't make any free uncaused choices and everything we've ever done could not have been avoided
why are we still held accountable for our actions.
Phazel comes the closest to answering this, but still doesn't fully answer it for me. I mean sure, we carried out the act, but we had no choice but to carry out the act since our choices are caused, and therefore not free. That means we didn't freely choose to carry out a certain act, we just had no choice but to do it since we don't make free [uncaused] choices.
Do you now understand what I'm asking here?
Take care,
Sorin
You may be questioning the word accountable in perspective to "punishment".
Regaurdless of that take a look at yourself (not saying this in a judgmental way) you feel, you are aware, etc etc.
There is no doubting that we are aware, there is no doubting that we make choices.
However are you perfect? I am not.
What can make you perfect?
You also can take the perspective of bible translations. It is well known that often a translation uses the closest word in that language. I could be wrong about that but I have read at times our english concepts often do not have an exact word to describe that in anothwer language.
That said. We are only accountable in the perspective of needing to be made perfect. Regaurdless of Gods responsibility he still has to do something to us to make us perfect.
Our individuality makes us accountable to be fixed by God.
It has taken me a long time to get this far, be patient.
Phazel,
Let's take a look at the meaning of the word:
accountable
adjective
liable to account for one's actions
In that case, I was caused to do it. Sure I made the choice, but was it free? A completely free uncaused choice? No.
Take care,
Sorin
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Same for me John. I am on the 2nd listening of Rays tape & of course I have read his paper on Free Will twice. I get it.....I don't get it....I know it....I forget it....
I agree that the forum helps keep it in front of me...
Sorin, I agree that is a fuzzy area for me. If I really had no choice in what I "chose" and it was fore ordained for me to do it, then why should I be punished for it??? Yes, I agree that given the set of circumstances anyone couldve been a Hitler, but I don't see how that changes anything.
Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable????
Another question, God is no respector of persons right??? What does this exactly mean?? If God chose Hitler to be Hitler and Billy Graham to have a grand, life isn't that bing a respector of persons?
love,
gena
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Hi all,
Have been watching this thread and i agree it's a difficult area to fathom. How i started to understand it was, that God is chastening (teaching) us like children. He puts the choices in front of us and we choose (and He knows which one we will choose at any given stage). But as He teaches us and we grow, then we should KNOW what choice to make to be obedient. If knowing what God would want, and we still choose to be disobedient THEN we are accountable. God didn't test Abraham with the ultimate test (sacrificing his son) until Abraham had learnt a lot of lessons. His faith was strong enough to pass that trial.
We teach our children...we give them choices..as they grow they should KNOW what choice they should make to please us.
So by being in our word, listening to Him and learning from our trials, our faith and spirit grows, which then enables us to choose to obey His teachings and He knows we will!
Can u all see what i mean??
God Bless
Sandie
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Phazel,
Let's take a look at the meaning of the word:
accountable
adjective
liable to account for one's actions
In that case, I was caused to do it. Sure I made the choice, but was it free? A completely free uncaused choice? No.
Take care,
Sorin
Your combining two issues that essentially can be unrelated. Being accountable does not need a free uncaused choice.
Liable " subject or susceptible: to be liable to heart disease."
We are subject to Gods judgment. That judgment is what will make us perfect.
It is hard to get past accountability and judgment as a matter of God perfecting us.
Rather we think of it as God punishing us for a free will choice.
simply put. God designed us to do whast we do, designed his plan so that our lives are influenced causing us to make the choices he planned for us to make.
Our awareness understands the good and bad in every choice we have ever made. We will be accountable to God in order for him to perfect us.
My explaination does not change the fact that we have no free will, it merely attempts to say that if we are not accountable to God, then we will never be perfected.
We cannot be accountable to anyone else because no one else has the power to perfect us.
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Hi Gena,
Consider this verse.
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
Heb 2:8 putting everything in subjection under His feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to Him, He left nothing outside His control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to Him.
He decided to way it this way, He is in control, but He still hold us accountable for our actions.
You said,
Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable?
You say you understand that you have no choice, but yet you still think that God should not hold you accountable.
But you see if we were not held accountable, how could God correct us?
Do you see what I mean, we have to be held accountable so that God can chastize us, and then we can learn and grow and build character.
What would really be unfair, is if God corrected us when we were not accountable :(
That is why God made it the way it is.
He decided it would be the way it is, so He could shape and mold us by correction.
And the only way it would be fair for Him to correct us, is if we are accountable.
As for God not being a respecter of person,
to me that means there is nothing we can do to impress Him.
He does not look on any of us with favor over another, because of who we are, because He made us who we are :)
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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We are all accountable but God is Responsible!
Separate the distinctions here....accountable and responsible.
Separate the words choice.... and ....will. They are NOT the same!
We have many choices. God knows which one we will pick because He knows us better than we know ourselves. God tells us to judge ourselves and to take the beam out of our own eyes. He tells us to follow Him. Do we? No!
Why not? Because we can’t. Do we know we can’t? No. What does it take until we realize that we can do nothing outside the Sovereignty or separate to God? Accountability brings us to realize our spiritual condition. Do we want to know our spiritual condition? No. Why? Because our spirtual condition is weak and subject to vanity and for this we experience pain when we are shown wrong, we experience agony when we are shown up and embarassment is not a word we want to have come near to us. We like to look good and we do not enjoly looking bad. We love and cultivate and maicure a good self esteem! and a good self image. Is it fake. YES!
This is part of the plan and process bringing us few who are selected and chosen by God to come to the painful acceptance through much personal suffering and experiences of helpless hopeless loveless soul poverty, that without Gods goodness we can not change? How do we change? Simple. Painfully through chastisement and flogging and trials and tribulations. We do not want to change. The familiar is comfortable. We can only change if God changes us. Do we want God to do anything to change us. NO! Is God a respector of persons? NO. THANK GOD FOR THAT! .... Then after much suffering we learn obedience....DEGREE BY DEGREE. How? We begin to think that we are not so great anymore. We begin to realize we have to lean upon someone greater than ourselves. We begin to get wise. Then we begin to question our own motives if we are very blessed and God so desires and chooses. Then we begin to see that our motives are selfish and carnal and valueless. Do we want to? NO. God draggs us. Then if God decides, we learn about His Spirit of Love Joy Peace Kindness Goodness Patience Gentleness Faithfulness and Long Suffering. Then we realise that accountability simply shows us what our spiritual condition is. Do we still enjoy carnality or do we rise up out of pain and suffering into the embrace of God? God is making us and He alone decides. Do we agree with this situation yet? No....Yes?
If I am resisting or trying to shake off or show restentment and bickering about my accountability then I am accusing God of His ways not being MY ways and His thoughts not being MY thoughts. I would only do that if I hate Gods ways and Gods words and the carnal mind does just that. It HATES God. We are accountable means we have preferences that show if we enjoy evil or good, carnal or spiritual. Those preferences are not nothing. They are something. They are our indications of our spiritual weakness, failures and liability to temptation. We can not approach Christ unless we first accept our condition and then approach Him in order to lean on and depend on the Mercy Grace and Unmerited favour of God made available to us only via Christ our High Priest who understands what we experience because He has been through it all. If I do not like it this way, I can rebel and that will show my spiritual condition is immature, hard and void. If I see and accept the way of pain, taking up my cross, as being the only way to the Spirit of Christ, then I can go forward into the image of Christ being made within me by God. The condition I am in is the condition I AM in NOT the condition GOD is in. MY condition is NOT permanent. God will fix us all. We are in our spirtual condition now in this life and God has made the way out! Look at where you and I are! Look at what you and I bretheren have been shown already. You and I are not babes in the woods. Do we want to go back? Do we wish to return to milk?
You and I are acountable for what we know. To whom much is given much will be required. Do we go for or against this Princiiple of God? God will know all about it and we will be shown up in the end because all our works and words and motives will be revealed. God is responsible for that and He wont be mocked. If I like it, then it shows I am on the right course. If not, then it shows what will not be desireable to see…. a wretched heart condition. No one wants that! ... yet either I am pliable to Gods ways or I am still heading for breaking up and being crushed into a humble and contrite spirit. The Power of God is All Mighty. I should embrace God...and His Christ....yet only HE can create that in me. I can know what is being created by looking at what my choices show me about my spiritual condition!
Christ went to the cross. He did not want to. He went anyway. What does that show of the spiritual condition of Christ? What are my CHOICES showing about me? That is the accountability mirror. Will I throw it away, question it or use it? God knows how mature I am. He knows how much fire of chastisement I still need to get into the image of His Son who died for me.
Accountability.....by my choices so I am known by God and will be revealed accordingly. So will all of us be salted with fire. God will correct, fix and amend errors wickedness and deciept in the end. Do I want to wait till then for the second death Lake of Fire? Am I waiting? Yes....No? Do I care to know who I am before God? Do I care to face my spiritual condition? ....Yes...No?.....Just some of my own thoughts! Just some...!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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To whom then will you liken Me, or shall I be equal? Says the Holy One… I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside Me… I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things… I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded… To whom will you like Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?" (Isa. 40:25; 45:5, 7, 12; 46:5)
There are some things that are almost impossible to describe. Ray said, we know that God is all knowing, but did He ever learn? We don't know because the scripture doesn't say. There are many things that the scriptures don't say that we must take by faith. We cannot describe everything that we see even so we see it. I think the posts that we have had describing accountability have been excellent, but just because we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Sometimes we just have to render the things that are Ceasar's to Ceasar and to God the things that are God's.
In His grace,
Dwight
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Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable????
Hi gena,
Flesh understand things are not the same as spiritual things. I found quote scripture that seem fit of 'why' and Paul had answer for us:
Rom. 11:33-36 NKJV
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How UNSEARCHABLE [Gk: anexereunetos-impossible understand] are HIS [God] JUDGMENTS and HIS WAYS PAST FINDING OUT [Gk: anexichniastos-impossible trace God]!
‘For who HAS KNOWN THE MIND [flesh] of the LORD ["man’s goings are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way?" Prov. 20:24]? Or WHO [flesh] HAS BECOME HIS [God] COUNSELOR [adviser]?’
‘Or who [flesh] has first given to Him [God] And it shall be repaid [reward] to him [flesh]?’
FOR OF HIM [God] and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are ALL THINGS, to whom be GLORY forever [Gk: aionas, same as aion; {eis ho aionas} into the ages/eons]. Amen.”
If God given us in spiritual, it is not one day understand fully but is progressing. I wish we could have now but it is God's control and He knows what is best for us.
I hope Kat helped you out. And hope you get some insight (or maybe complete insight :D).
Brett
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I believe Paul answers the question in Romans 9. Paul asks, "Why does he yet find fault?" This is the same as asking why does he hold accountable the vessels of dishonor when they can not resist His will.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
First we are to recognize that God knows what He is doing.
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
And now Paul gives the reason.
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
So God finds fault (holds accountable) in order to....
1. show His wrath
2. make His power known
3. make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy
As an example, take the prodigal son. It is my opinion that he was first a vessel of dishonor since he sold his inheritance for a bowl of stew (riotous living). God held him accountable by sending a famine and putting him in a hopless situation and reducing him to the state of a pig. By doing so God made known His wrath & power upon that vessel. Later, when the prodigal son repented, he became a vessel of honor. And God made known the riches of His glory and His mercy on that vessel.
So God holds us accountable for our benefit, so we can see His wrath, power, glory, and mercy.
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Same for me John. I am on the 2nd listening of Rays tape & of course I have read his paper on Free Will twice. I get it.....I don't get it....I know it....I forget it....
I agree that the forum helps keep it in front of me...
Sorin, I agree that is a fuzzy area for me. If I really had no choice in what I "chose" and it was fore ordained for me to do it, then why should I be punished for it??? Yes, I agree that given the set of circumstances anyone couldve been a Hitler, but I don't see how that changes anything.
Clearly, w/o double-speak, I have no choice but to choose what was predestined for me to choose. So why does God hold me accountable????
Another question, God is no respector of persons right??? What does this exactly mean?? If God chose Hitler to be Hitler and Billy Graham to have a grand, life isn't that bing a respector of persons?
love,
gena
Hi Gena,
Why does God make the rain fall on the wicked, and the righteous? This is a tough question for the human mind to conceive. Why does he make one vessel for honor, and one for dis-honor? So that he can save us ALL!
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Its a tough question, and even a tougher answer.
Hope this is of some help.
Chris R
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Hello Chris R and Bobf
You both mention Rom 9 : 19 in your posts. 8)
From what I have learnt in LOF… ;D
The word ‘will’ used in this Scripture is only used one other time in Act 27:43
The translation of this word is more correctly translated ‘purpose’. Seen in this light we can ask the question who has resisted God’s Will? The answer is everyone!
But who has resisted, thwarted or prevented God’s purpose or plan? No one because there is no higher power than God.
As in the case of Pharaoh, God set Pharaoh against His Will and hardened his heart in order to fulfil His plan that no one can alter. God is in charge and He is in supreme control of His plans that will ultimately bring us all into His perfect Will for us all.
It has helped me to learn the difference between will and purpose or plan, that is otherwise hidden and obscured in Rom 9 : 19 through the use of the word will instead of purpose or plan. :D
Peace be with you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Chris R and Bobf
You both mention Rom 9 : 19 in your posts. 8)
From what I have learnt in LOF… ;D
The word ‘will’ used in this Scripture is only used one other time in Act 27:43
The translation of this word is more correctly translated ‘purpose’. Seen in this light we can ask the question who has resisted God’s Will? The answer is everyone!
But who has resisted, thwarted or prevented God’s purpose or plan? No one because there is no higher power than God.
As in the case of Pharaoh, God set Pharaoh against His Will and hardened his heart in order to fulfil His plan that no one can alter. God is in charge and He is in supreme control of His plans that will ultimately bring us all into His perfect Will for us all.
It has helped me to learn the difference between will and purpose or plan, that is otherwise hidden and obscured in Rom 9 : 19 through the use of the word will instead of purpose or plan. :D
Peace be with you
Arcturus :)
Arcturus,
Going by what you just mentioned, correct me if Im wrong but; is it reasonable to think that all of us are against Gods perfect will to carry out His purpose?
Peace,
John
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Hello John
All have sinned! That means we have all been in opposition and have resisited Gods Will. We start out in carnality that is deep seated hatred for God. Then, in God's perfect plan and timing, He through His goodness changes us through repentence either through force of revelation as in Paul on His way to Damascus, or through trials and tribulations that bring us to contriteness of spirit and humbleness of heart. Either way, it is a gift of God that changes any one from carnal to spiritual because this is done of and by His Spirit alone. He draggs us to His Son and His Son is the author and finisher of our faith.
Hope this helps a little.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Gosh, these were great responses...slowly the dawn breaks....especially Romans 9-11.
That is pretty clear! ; Thanks to all. I have some study & meditating to do along with some repentance. Who am I to question Gods' plan when I don't really understand it.
I do rejoice that God has put it in me to want w/ all my heart to know Him and live for Him.
Lord forgive me when I think I could do it any better :'(
love,
gena
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Sorin,
I was wondering if you or any of the other members had ever run across this definition of free will:
Free will is the ability to choose any at all of the moral options offered in a given situation.
Just curious
JB
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Hello JB
WELCOME on your first post!
JB, the Dictionaries were changed to incorporate a Pagan meaning to the word Hell in the 16th Century to accomodate the Catholic Doctrines of Eternal Hell in order to help facilitate manipulation, which is witch craft, over the masses.
Jesus Christ did not posses free will or any such "ability" to choose any moral options offered in a given situation. He did not want to go to the Cross. His Father made Him go for it was the plan of the Father from before the foundations of the world.
John 5 : 19 ....Verily verily, Isay unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do; for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise.
From LOF Part B I quote : Do you know of one Scripture that contradicts this verse in John 5:19? If you don’t then you must admit that Jesus could not do anything by a supposed "free will" which is said to have the ability to act independently of God.
Free will is the ability to act independently of God.
Who has such an ability? No one. Who would like to believe that they have such an ability. EVERYONE ....until they come to understanding and belief in God and His Word. Only God's Spirit can make that happen! The worlds Theologies are as sand that are uncertain and deceptive at best and mis-leading heresy more realisitically speaking. Often the Dictionaries will report what the Theologians say as in the case of Hell so to the case of Free Will. Either our authority is the Spirit and Word of God which leads to common sense or it is what the world says, which leads to confusion.
At one time the world was flat! ;D........according to the worlds authorities!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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TO THE FORUM: (from Ray)
The answer your questions regarding why God holds accountable and judges those who merely do what they are inclined to do, is found in Rom. 9:
"For the children being not yet born, neither have done ANY good OR evil, that the purpose of God according to election [divine selection, divine chosen] might stand, not of works, but of him that calls; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there UNRIGHTEOUSNESS WITH GOD? God forbid... So then it is not of him that wills nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy... Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will be hardens" (Rom. 9:11-18).
And so here is where your discussion revolves. Yes, it is so, that God chooses whom He will have mercy on and whom He will harden. It is God Himself Who not only chooses whom He will, but it is also God Himself Who BRINGS ABOUT the condition of the two parties in question (a vessel of honor versus a vessel of dishonor--one upon whom mercy is bestowed, and the other upon whom hardness is bestowed). And so, as this IS the way things are, does this not make God Himself UNRIGHTEOUS? And Paul also emphatically answers his own question it "GOD FORBID!"
But Paul realizes that his readers will find fault with this line of teaching and reasoning, and so Paul presents the question that naturally comes to our minds when we first hear these strange teachings: "You will say then unto me [or unto Forum members] WHY DOES HE [GOD] YET FIND FAULT? For [because] who has [EVER] resisted His will [purpose, plan, or intentions]?"
Yes, since God is Sovereign and no one can go against His foreknowledge of WHAT MUST BE, why then does God find fault with those who are merely doing what they with their evil and carnal minds MUST DO?
Okay, here is Paul's answer:
"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [the man doing merely what he was designed to do] say to Him that formed it [God the Potter] WHY have you made me thus [this way?]" (Rom. 9:19-20).
We as God's "Pots" have no right to ask God WHY He does what He does. HE IS GOD!!
But, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, God, nonetheless, does tell us WHY.
"What if God will to show His wrath, and to make his power known, endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He has BEFORE prepared unto glory."
God is going to show how GOOD the good are by contrasting them with how BAD the bad are. And God has this right, since He is the Potter, and we are merely the clay. It is GOOD that we all LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS (Isa. 26:9). One group (the chosen elect) just learn it earlier than do the vessels of dishonor. They will not be left out:
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [vessels of dishonour], especially [now] of those that believe [the vessels of honour]" (I Tim. 4:10).
But remember, we also were like the vessels of dishonour fitted for wrath, in "times past":
"Among whom also WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh [vessels of dishonour] and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3).
We are ALL "marred in the Potter's hand" sometime in our lives, and must be refashioned after the likeness of His Son. So God is no respecter of persons, He merely has a schedule for which vessels get saved first. It is good that we learn righteousness by the evils that God imposes upon us, even if we are "NOT WILLING" that He should operate in this way (Rom. 8:20).
God be with you all,
Ray
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Dear Ray and Dennis
....not of works but of Him that calls... and....God Himself Who BRINGS ABOUT the condition
This reveals to a deeper level our dependence on God. It brings into light what it means to have reverential fear of God....
Thank you for sharing what you see and know
Peace and gratitude to you
Arcturus
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Hi Dennis,
This helps my understanding quite a bit, thanks for posting it, and thank Ray [for me] for taking the time to write it.
Take care,
Sorin
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WOW,
This tread has been a GREAT learning experience. This is how I see it now. God holding us accountable for our actions that He brought about is for our benefit. It is the way He chooses to do it and THATS THAT! Is He wrong in doing it this way? GOD FORBID, and NO. We each have our on set (every pot is different) of accountable actions, by which we are being molded and formed DAILY. Why? To KNOW GOD. By the action of contrast or cause and effect, we are made to know Him. Even, our outward man against the inward man and vise versa. He hardens whom He will...when He will...as often as He will...to bring about His PERFECT will. He shows mercy in the same respect, and on the individual level as often as He desires to harden me, He will, as often as He desires to bestow mercy on me He will, to form me into the pot He desires me to be.
Peace,
John
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John, that was very clear. Thanks.
gena
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Hello Kittyhawk
....and that would be a broken horse......and obedient overcomer! :)
Peace to you!
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Great insight by Ray's response! I get another step to understand more than ever! Thanks Ray for his time for us and thanks Dennis for to bring his note for us! And thank you posts for those who effort to help us understand. And more, thank God.;D
Brett
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Hi Ray and Dennis,
Thank you for taking the time to write this and sharing it with us.
I understand better now.
Thank you!!!
Iris
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Training a horse is a good analogy. We too need training to run our race to the finish.We too need to learn how to keep our eyes on Christ and to stay focused and not be distracted by looking either to the left or the right of us but running the race to the end like a well trained thourough bred!
Heb 12 : 1 Therefore then since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses who have borne testimony to the truth, let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance, unnecessary weight and that sin which so readily, deftly and cleverly clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us.
Arcturus :)