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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: cheekie3 on October 17, 2014, 04:25:36 AM
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All -
I was wondering that if the husband and father of a family knew the Truths of God and studied The Scriptures - and lived for and obeyed Jesus' Commandments - could his wife and children follow suit even though they themselves do not study The Scriptures.
Obviously there would be family discussions regarding the Truths of God.
I know we do not know who The Elect are until they are Resurrected in the First Resurrection.
George.
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Hi Cheekie3, this would be just my opinion, Faith without works is dead. I think God would hold that husband and father accountable for not sharing with his family, the truth. The door would be wide open for Satan to drag his family off to church. Ricky
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Is is possible to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures?
Yes of course it is. Love your wife and kids. Share with them through your conduct and attitude. Pray for them. And don't worry. They're in Gods hands and they've already been chosen by Him to live in His kingdom when it's all said and done.
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Is is possible to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures?
Yes of course it is. Love your wife and kids. Share with them through your conduct and attitude. Pray for them. And don't worry. They're in Gods hands and they've already been chosen by Him to live in His kingdom when it's all said and done.
Wrong: There are the called and the chosen. First you have to be called and then chosen by God.
There is NOTHING you can do to be chosen. He chooses us. We have no choice in the matter.
He already determined who was chosen long before this world was formed over 4.5 billion years ago. It’s a done deal. But we don’t know.
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Is is possible to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures?
Yes of course it is. Love your wife and kids. Share with them through your conduct and attitude. Pray for them. And don't worry. They're in Gods hands and they've already been chosen by Him to live in His kingdom when it's all said and done.
Wrong: There are the called and the chosen. First you have to be called and then chosen by God.
There is NOTHING you can do to be chosen. He chooses us. We have no choice in the matter.
He already determined who was chosen long before this world was formed over 4.5 billion years ago. It’s a done deal. But we don’t know.
Agreed. Completely and totally in God's hands. I think the chosen will be inspired to study the scriptures. They will hunger and thirst to drawn nearer to the Lord and this fire will consume them. The spirit drives you to study the scriptures. I just don't see someone being chosen and having zero interest in the scriptures. It the testimony of God to us. Our Father and Lord Saviour Jesus Christ.
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Hello George,
It matters not the opinions of others. I want to see two scriptures to back up this claim otherwise it leads back to Babylon and all its false doctrine. ;)
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Hello George,
It matters not the opinions of others. I want to see two scriptures to back up this claim otherwise it leads back to Babylon and all its false doctrine. ;)
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Psalm 119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
Proverbs 2:1-5 "My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God."
Etc... etc...
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Hello George,
It matters not the opinions of others. I want to see two scriptures to back up this claim otherwise it leads back to Babylon and all its false doctrine. ;)
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Psalm 119:105 "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
Proverbs 2:1-5 "My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God."
Etc... etc...
Hello Alex,
This thread , is it possible to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures? The scriptures you brought out tell me no its not possible to be chosen without reading the scriptures. Thank you. :)
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The question was "is it possible.."
All things are possible with God.
Abraham didn't have the scriptures.
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The question was "is it possible.."
All things are possible with God.
Abraham didn't have the scriptures.
Certainly all things are possible with God... Except God Cannot Lie (and a few others).
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
If He chooses outside of His own boundaries/parameters laid out in the scriptures then that would make Him a lair.
The most obvious parameter is Him choosing someone before the world existed.
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The question was "is it possible.."
All things are possible with God.
Abraham didn't have the scriptures.
Abraham will not be in the 1st Resurrection. Neither will anyone before Jesus including John the Baptist.
All of the Old Testament figures will come up in a resurrection of judgment to be judged by the called and chosen.
I guess before all those unlearned in the Scriptures freak out from my above comment, I should attach the below email from Ray, which will still confuse the Many since the Scriptures are contrary to Christian teachings and beliefs.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2385.0.html
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Ok. How about the man on the cross next to Jesus?
The question was is it possible for someone to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures..
The answer is yes. God can choose whomever He wants. He can choose someone from before the foundation of the world and determine that this chosen one would not even have access to a bible. How can anyone say that is not possible? How is that going outside of Gods parameters?
Scripture tells us which is more important, knowing the bible or doing what Christ commanded which is to love one another as ourselves. Romans also says that it's possible for those who are without the law (love God and love your neighbor as yourself) to do instinctively what the law commands (love God and love your neighbor as yourself)..
It is not the hearers or readers of the word who will be justified but the doers. Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself is the sum of all the commands. People can obey the one single command which sums up all commands without ever opening a bible. They can be chosen of God before the creation of the world to obey and be justified.
This is my understanding and I don't proclaim that my understanding is right or wrong. It's just the understanding that I have now.
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There is a basic principle about who is an elect and will be in the first resurrection. They must be 'in' Christ, but Christ must be in them as well, and that is only by the Holy Spirit of Christ indwelling.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
The Spirit of Christ was not offered or given to anybody until Christ was born into the world, lived a human life, was crucified as a sin offering and then resurrected, all this had to happen first.
The thief on the cross right there beside Christ, died before Christ was risen!
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,
Those in the first resurrection will be sent into this world to rule with Christ, they will be ready to go when resurrected, because they will have been prepared through the study of the Word of Scripture already. Who do you think the Bible, Word of God, was prepared and preserved for anyway? The world/church? Come on, it is so God can train/prepare His elect. The words printed in the Bible are just words to the world/church, but to His elect they teach them the Spirit of life.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Don't think that anybody will casually enter the kingdom at the first resurrection, it is only those few that the Spirit has taught how to live righteous, and that knowledge comes from much Scripture study that is preserved especially for the elect and meditation on those things and being continually in pray. Yes it is putting God first and coming to a very close relationship with Christ, and certainly putting your fellowman before yourself.
Think about how the Apostles lived and we have Ray as a modern time example as well, that is living a righteous life, that is what it will take to be in the first resurrection. Maybe read the Bible study 'How Hard is Getting Saved?' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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:) Amen Kat
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There is a basic principle about who is an elect and will be in the first resurrection. They must be 'in' Christ, but Christ must be in them as well, and that is only by the Holy Spirit of Christ indwelling.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
The Spirit of Christ was not offered or given to anybody until Christ was born into the world, lived a human life, was crucified as a sin offering and then resurrected, all this had to happen first.
The thief on the cross right there beside Christ, died before Christ was risen!
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,
Those in the first resurrection will be sent into this world to rule with Christ, they will be ready to go when resurrected, because they will have been prepared through the study of the Word of Scripture already. Who do you think the Bible, Word of God, was prepared and preserved for anyway? The world/church? Come on, it is so God can train/prepare His elect. The words printed in the Bible are just words to the world/church, but to His elect they teach them the Spirit of life.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Don't think that anybody will casually enter the kingdom at the first resurrection, it is only those few that the Spirit has taught how to live righteous, and that knowledge comes from much Scripture study that is preserved especially for the elect and meditation on those things and being continually in pray. Yes it is putting God first and coming to a very close relationship with Christ, and certainly putting your fellowman before yourself.
Think about how the Apostles lived and we have Ray as a modern time example as well, that is living a righteous life, that is what it will take to be in the first resurrection. Maybe read the Bible study 'How Hard is Getting Saved?' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
To add to what Kat and John said:
Hebrews 11:13 "These [The patriarchs of old, the prophets etc..] all died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
Hebrews 11:39-40 "And these all [Those same patriarchs from above], having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
Indeed it was only until Christ came, died, and was raised, that anyone could be in Christ and Christ in him, which as kat pointed out, is absolutely necessary for salvation. This is why Paul (who was very studied in the old testament and who kept the law flawlessly) could say that the patriarchs still await the resurrection and future judgement of the world.
Also, as Kat said, these things are FOR US:
1 Corinthians 10: 1-4 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat;And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Yes indeed, the scriptures, they are FOR US. They were not intended to be for anyone else but those whom God is calling and choosing. Them He will justify.
Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
In Christ,
Alex
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Ok. How about the man on the cross next to Jesus?
The question was is it possible for someone to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures..
Just because the man on the cross next to Jesus will eventually be in paradise (like every other human being) does not mean he was chosen before the foundation of the world.
There is a process every chosen person goes through and that man did not go through that process before he died, else he would not have been on that cross in the first place.
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Growth into the fullness of Christ is a process. First as babes in Christ and feeding on milk, then growing unto perfection.
1Co_3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Heb_5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Eph_4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
It is a process of being tried by fire now, others later. Big difference between being called and chosen. Wonderful of God is in providing for us and all His children in His care.
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Helpful discussion, Dennis, Kat & all.
One item still concerns me and that is the "dark ages" when scripture was not available. Hand written Latin Bibles were held away from the membership and even most Catholic priests other than at the Vatican.
So then are we saying that during all those centuries God had no one that understood without having access to the Vatican library or the copy of scripture owned by the very rich?
We are I think supposing that the "chosen" had to be called out of the operational "Christian" church which during that time before Martin Luther was governed by edict from Rome or elsewhere when Rome fell.
Just wondering how this need to "read" applies during the several centuries noted when few were Bible literate.
Indiana Bob
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Good points Bob and I don't know.
Ray use to say (maybe not publicly) that there was always someone in each generation. Perhaps just a few people back then?
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Helpful discussion, Dennis, Kat & all.
One item still concerns me and that is the "dark ages" when scripture was not available. Hand written Latin Bibles were held away from the membership and even most Catholic priests other than at the Vatican.
So then are we saying that during all those centuries God had no one that understood without having access to the Vatican library or the copy of scripture owned by the very rich?
We are I think supposing that the "chosen" had to be called out of the operational "Christian" church which during that time before Martin Luther was governed by edict from Rome or elsewhere when Rome fell.
Just wondering how this need to "read" applies during the several centuries noted when few were Bible literate.
Indiana Bob
Hi bob,
I believe its entirely possible that during these times, God was able to provide the scriptures to those He so chose to save. After all, our God and Saviour has been known to do far greater things than this ;)
God bless,
Alex
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Ok. How about the man on the cross next to Jesus?
The question was is it possible for someone to be chosen of God without reading the scriptures..
The answer is yes. God can choose whomever He wants. He can choose someone from before the foundation of the world and determine that this chosen one would not even have access to a bible. How can anyone say that is not possible? How is that going outside of Gods parameters?
Scripture tells us which is more important, knowing the bible or doing what Christ commanded which is to love one another as ourselves. Romans also says that it's possible for those who are without the law (love God and love your neighbor as yourself) to do instinctively what the law commands (love God and love your neighbor as yourself)..
It is not the hearers or readers of the word who will be justified but the doers. Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself is the sum of all the commands. People can obey the one single command which sums up all commands without ever opening a bible. They can be chosen of God before the creation of the world to obey and be justified.
This is my understanding and I don't proclaim that my understanding is right or wrong. It's just the understanding that I have now.
I havnt followed this whole thread but - if you dont know the Law ,how can you do the things written therein and if you dont know what Jesus Says how can one do the things he Says ?
Paul writes that he does have knowledge even though he has trouble expressing it in words,and he does instruct us to study..
If you read any book for instance, you visualize the story in your heart/mind you may even relate to some of the words written.
That visualisation/interpretation can be wrong though and perhaps many months later in a discussion say,you may have a lightbulb moment where that which you read suddenly has a greater meaning - but you cant relate to this if its not stashed somewhere in ones memory (because of what you read)matt 13 v 52
Luk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. [/b]
Luk 9:45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
The disciples were not literally reading what Jesus was saying.... they were listening -
so I think i hear what you are asking Largely
I think one is compelled to read the word this compulsion is heightened when you understand it.... as far as "can one be chosen if one does not read the word"
(READ) ;) what Jesus said to the wife of Zebedee
Matt 20 v 20 - 23
many folk read and read and read and still have no clue - its not up to us
I suppose bible audios would be ok
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I havnt followed this whole thread but - if you dont know the Law ,how can you do the things written therein and if you dont know what Jesus Says how can one do the things he Says ?
God can do anything He wants. He can raise up children of Abraham from a stone if He wants. Its impossible for our finite minds to fully comprehend an infinite god.
Romans 2:14,16
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Love your god and love your neighbors as yourself is the law that sums up all laws. Its the opposite of hypocrisy. Even those who never open a bible know what hypocrisy is and that its evil. Whether we obey our conscience when it convicts us of hypocrisy or not is another issue. But it is possible to be a doer of the word and obey the law of Christ and not ever study scripture.
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largely, you read from a passage where Paul is explaining that the physical Jews would not gain salvation by their keeping the laws physically. But the Gentiles never were allowed into the synagogues or Temple where the only Scripture were kept, yet they are capable of understanding the truth. They did not have Bibles to study at that time, they were learning from Paul's teaching. Those people at that time were taught about God and the truth through preaching, they learned through "hearing," not just because they had a the truth automatically.
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
v. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
v. 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
Do you really think that now when just about every person can easily own a Bible to read that they don't need that? In early times when there was no Bibles, they had to learn through preaching, but they learned the truth from somebody, it was not just an instinctual thing. Paul was sent to them to teach them the truth, just like anybody must learn it.
Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
v. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
v. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
v. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region.
We are very blessed in this day to have so must available for us to study and learn from, look at the internet, a major means of knowledge increasing. All of this is a great aid to the elect to study and learn much, if God has chosen and inspired them to. To think otherwise is just making excuses.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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mmmm OK - once again read Rom 7v7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? God forbid. But I do not know sin, but by the law; for I had not known concupiscence, if the law did not say: Thou shalt not covet.
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Some people here simply refuse to hear and understand this matter despite the ample scriptures that have been shared: these Words of God, which state and admonish us to study the scriptures--To study the Word of God. There is a pattern to how God raises up those who will REIGN with Christ. Here are more witnesses to this testimony:
Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
Matthew 13:44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."
There are people throwing around one verse here and there, sowing confusion among those less learned. We are told that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
As for how people learned before we had the scriptures, how did people study? They had the words straight from those God had chosen to spread His gospel around the world. Kat explained this and I think she hit the nail on the head. After these men were departed, their works were preserved so that those who could not learn directly from them now had their words to study from.
You want to be a king? You want to be chosen of God and overcome? Then you need to SEARCH THE MATTER OUT:
You need to..."Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) because "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
While there is nothing we in ourselves can do to attain election, you have to understand that God has a pattern and way of doing things and those things are laid out for us in the scriptures. He does not change. If we were admonished two thousand years ago to study the Words, to search the matters out, to sell everything we have so we can buy that field, etc... then it is the same today as well.
Alex
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Hello Alex,
your absolutely right in what your saying, Amen brother. :)
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All -
Thank you all for your responses - and I am wondering how the Lord chose members of His Elect when the Scriptures were not available to them.
I know that Jesus needs to send The Comforter to dwell within the Elect - but is it possible for such a person (whether in the dark ages or today) to be a member of the Elect without studying the Scriptures with God Judging them in this Age.
George.
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Hi George,
Well the Scriptures are a tremendous (if not vital) help that's for sure, and I can't help but think God would have provided some kind of way that those He has chosen to have access to the New Testament. I mean there are only a few He is choosing out of the world and I can see how those few could have been put in 'special' circumstances that they would have some way to read.
So I am thinking that there is a need to have some degree of knowledge of Scripture in order to have a unity in understanding among the elect. Even in the dark ages, when most may have been illiterate, the Scripture were read in the churches, I would think that God, by the Holy Spirit, could have uses what was available and taught them whatever He wanted.
It is interesting that we really don't have any 'known' record of the elect throughout the centuries. But one thing is clear to me, that by having the Holy Spirit indwelling God would have ways to be able to teach them any and everything an elect would need to know.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
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Romans 10 comes to mind, and especially verses 12-15. & 17
12-For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
For the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13-For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14-How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15-And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17-So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Joel
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I was considering the same thing as Indiana Bob. How many hundreds of years were the Catholic church the only ones with scripture? And if it was translated into anything other than Latin it was a crime, punishable by death.
How many early Christ followers never saw scripture- if they were very fortunate they were read a letter from Paul or Peter somewhere. If they went to the synagogue they could read (OT) scripture but could they go in or even read it if they were not Jewish?
And even now, how many cultures have no access to Bibles or if they are fortunate and led by God they have one hidden that they read and try to understand with the leading of the Holy Spirit? I guess what I am saying is that the book form of the Word of God is not everything. But the Word of God is everything.
The greatest thing I struggle with is just living in this world and pursuing the things in it. I'm talking about decorating the house, buying things, cooking, reading novels, surfing the internet. These things are either worldly or they are not if they are done to the glory of God. But others who live much simpler lives and live without benefit of my Concordant Literal, they live in the grace of God every day and His leading; perhaps they don't have the knowledge we have but they have the love of God in them and pursue Him with everything.
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I am thinking it is essential for an elect to know about Christ Jesus one way or the other, by hearing/preaching or reading the gospel about Him... even in the early years. Belief by knowledge of Christ is absolutely necessary, that is what the gospel was preserved for... it is the disciples accounts of the life, death and resurrection of the Savior and they were eye witnesses and their message reveal for us the message of the truth. Jesus stated that those that came after the disciples would be blessed for believing in Him, but to believe in Him you have to have heard the gospel.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
So we have been given the written Word, the Scripture, for the express purpose to teach us about Christ, so we can believe in Him, through faith that comes from God.
John 20:30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
v. 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Only by the Spirit of Christ in us can we understand the gospel of Christ and that makes us part of the body, and we are united in the same beliefs and faith with other believers.
Eph 4:10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
v. 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
v. 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
v. 3 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
v. 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
v. 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
I guess my point is that I cannot see how somebody can be an elect without the fundamental knowledge of the gospel of Christ in the Scripture. God could certainly bring about special circumstances so that any of the very few He has chosen to be an elect could learn the truth... if a person was illiterate (in the first centuries, since most people could not read), God would provide a teacher... so maybe that is the way they were taught in those first centuries, by being taught through preaching (Romans 10:14). But whatsoever would have been needed to teach an elect (preaching or access to the Scripture) I believe could and would have been provided.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat,
Appreciate each of your replies, very helpful.
One addition from my mind.
During the time Paul was teaching, the truth of the Gospel was much simpler. Something like, it's either law or grace and here is how God is working with each of the called.
The students of that time had much less confusion to deal with. They weren't reading the official word from corrupt religious denominations. They may have known about some Jewish beliefs such as one true God, but Paul had to explain even that.
We today have so many erroneous opinions/traditions to erase from our former learning in "church" or seminary etc., that it is a much more difficult work of the spirit of God.
For one example, the truth that there is no hell fire to fear. Isn't this one of the teachings that Ray Smith was able to share that attracted most of us? e.g. Finally, someone has put in print, with Bible answers, many of the questions that have been bothering me all of these years.
Of course the "spirit" can inspire each of us to dismiss what we have previously thought, but it is certainly better to begin with a clean slate, clean mind which was likely the case with the Gentiles of Paul's day who had only pagan gods to deal with.
Thanks all for your contributions; Indiana Bob
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2Co 5:16 (NASB)
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.