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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Shane. on January 21, 2009, 07:51:27 PM
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Hello everyone. I just found Ray's website and much encouragement in it. I haven't had the time to read it all, and I know I'm breaking the rules by posting, but I'd really like some advice.
Anyway, I sent an email to Ray a while back and I realized he doesn't have time to answer them all. I found this message board so I thought I would post it here. It's kind of personal but I guess I'm using the anonymity of the internet to my benefit ;) Here we go...
Dear Ray,
I am a twenty year old college student who, within the last couple of years, has been awakened to the true nature of my savior. Finding your website and reading your articles is one of the most encouraging things that has happened to me in some time. I quickly found that all those who speak the truth will meet persecution. I was naive enough to think I could convince my parents and fellow church members that we were way off in our ideology. Since then I have been labeled everything from a blasphemer to a Marxist.
Anyway, that’s not what my email is about. I can deal with that, I find strength in the scripture whenever I look. The question I have is the question I myself cannot answer when many have asked. Those that will listen to my criticisms of modern Christianity can only ask me what they should be doing. So I am writing you with the same one. What should I, as twenty year old student devoted to Christ, be doing? Unfortunately I haven’t had the time to read through all of your articles so I apologize if you’ve already answered.
Just for the sake of sharing, I’d like to tell you what I am drawn to. Christ’s commandment to live in a kingdom not of this world has been tugging at my heart. Mostly because I am student of history and literature and I have seen the failings of worldly kingdoms. Time and time again, those who trusted in men rather than God have reaped what they have sown. I feel that living in western civilization is living in sin. For our luxuries many suffer. One scripture comes to mind.
And I heard another voice from heaven saying come out of her my people, that ye be not
partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Revelation 18:4)
I just finished reading your essay on Christ’s more biting language (great job by the way) and when I came to that verse I felt that we are called out of more than just the modern church. We are called out of empire and rule by man. I feel that dependence on my government rather than God is clearly a duel allegiance and that living under my government inherently despises God. For this, I want to make an Exodus from empire and into the wilderness. To trust only in God and no longer partake in the sins of my society. Do you feel this is misguided? If so, why? Any wisdom you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you very much for reading.
God Bless,
Shane
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Certainly, Ray has taught to eschew things of this world such as politics, yoga, and fighting in armies. It seems that his take on it is, if you can't imagine Jesus doing a thing, then why would YOU want to do a thing, if you're trying to be like Him?
I'd take that to speak of rebellion, too. I'm not saying that you are suggesting being a back-woods rifleman, killing any revenue man that comes after you to collect taxes. But, just in case it crosses somebody's mind, Jesus never practiced such social disobedience or criminal behavior, either. Again, if He didn't, neither should we.
At least in New Zealand and the United States (two countries I've lived in), I don't think a person can live off the land anymore without dealing with the "empire" as you say it. Not without being labeled a bad person and being treated as the same. Nonetheless, I admire your sentiments - I think you've got the right sense of things, but need to think long and hard about how to apply them in your life.
Be sure to let us know what Ray says, once he gets to your message. He's over a thousand behind right now since he's been very ill.
Steve
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John15:18 John17:15-21 Thats how He has brought me to understand. Bless the Lord.
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Thanks for your replies Steve and micah.
Of course, I do not believe violence is a means to ANYTHING but suffering. As for living off the land without bowing before Empire? I don't see it as impossible. There are actually small groups of people living primitively in national parks all over the nation. Sure the land is owned by the federal government but who is to say that anyone but God can claim ownership to creation?
I have also participated in acts of civil disobedience where I felt Christ's presence. For example, it is illegal to take perfectly fine, sealed, and barely expired food out of the dumpster. It is also illegal to distribute any kind of food without a food distributors license. The threat of jail time or fines have never deterred me from filling a need where I see it. As for being labeled a bad person and being treated the same, is it not true that ALL those who stand for righteousness will be persecuted?
I know my call sounds radical, but was Christ's not also?
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Shane,
You need to listen to what god wills. Do you think that going into the wilderness will glorify god? Remember that is key. No matter who condemns you for what you believe stay string and know that god is in charge and nothing is possible with out god. I know that it is hard but you will get past it if it is gods will and just remember that when those you try to help condemn you that god has not given them the understanding and may never give it to them. Just continue to glorify god in your actions, and remember that it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you have to believe in hell to go to heaven. So next time someone condemns you for your belief tell them that
god bless
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What should I, as twenty year old student devoted to Christ, be doing?
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Also do these things:
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
Hey Shane,
I can not specifically tell you what you should be doing, I've certainly have had feelings of just getting away from it all!
But how much are you getting away from in the wilderness, the desert, the forest. Its still you with your carnel mind!
Our mind must change not our position on the earth.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Scripture is full of instructions on what to do, but not by the work of your hands can any of these things come to pass.
Remember this:
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Hope this helps you!
Antaiwan
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Just wanted everyone to know that Shane is not me 'in pseudonym'... ;)
Shane: I hear you, bro...
Might want to check out this thread:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9170.0.html
Great questions, btw.. I wish I'd have thought more about these things when I was your age.. Also, I can vouch for the fact that you can live 'off the grid' so to speak. It's a hard life; I'm not sure it's what Christ intends for us (yet perhaps it is); but it is possible.
Do let us know if and what Ray replies to your very thoughtful query.
Peace.
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Hi Shane,
You will need a cram course on what this fight is all about, so here is my suggestion. It
seem you have taken on a large task; take an hour or so and read this paper from Ray:
Small excerpt from: http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XIII
WHO IS THE BEAST?
This installment of "The Lake of Fire" will possibly be the very most shocking to most of my readers. That everyone wants to know "WHO IS THE BEAST," there is no doubt. That most will be totally shocked and dumbfounded when they find out, there also is no doubt.
If any wish to stop right here and search another site for a milder and more palatable interpretation of "Who is the beast," there is no shortage of material. My Web Master has found on the four or five most popular search engines, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of papers on "The Beast of Revelation." And, NO, I haven’t read one of them.
THE BEASTS OF REVELATION
The word "beast(s)" is found 356 times in the King James Bible—59 times in Revelation alone. Most of these beasts are literal four-footed animals, albeit, all 59 of the beasts in Revelation are symbols for something other than four-footed animals. The four beasts made reference to 7 times in the singular from Rev. 4:6 to 6:7 should be translated "living creatures" and not "beasts." And all references to "beasts" in the plural (15 times) from Rev. 4:6 to Rev. 19:4 should be also translated "living creatures," with the exception of Rev. 6:8 and 18:13 where "beast" is correct.
george. :)
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Oh, Shane! To be that young again with such wonderful knowledge! ;D You are, in my older and now finally wiser opinion, filled with a wild hair that comes with your wonderful youth! I completely understand your need to come out of the world's systems. My husband and I were hugely into politics for years and now we see it for what it is and we stay out of it.
Jesus stayed out of it too.
As Ray wisely said, "A true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.
I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations. Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."
In my days of being your age and into my 30's, I told too much, too soon,to too many people! ::) :-\
I hope I don't sound like a granny here because, believe me, I know EXACTLY how you feel!
I just want to lend you my experience not just with life, but with learning all this new information. We all have SO much to learn before we'll be able to handle sharing it and we first have to realize that God does not desire we share it with everyone anyway. He'll let you know when you need to!
I think we can come out of the world in our hearts and in many ways without being too radical. Well, we are considered radical in some ways but we don't see it that way! 8)
Read, read, read. Study, study, study. You are in such a unique position to be learning this so young. Be a sponge and let God show you what He wants from you in His perfect timing.
Blessings, Lin
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Hi again everyone. Great responses!
@pinko: Love the name :D I read many of the posts from the discussion you linked and I would take your side on most points. I would differ in that rather than calling myself an anarchist I would call myself a Christian. That does mean, however, that I claim no allegiance to any man or man-made form of government upon this earth. My allegiance is to Christ and his kingdom that is not of this world.
@george: Just read through the article and enjoyed it thoroughly however I could not agree with it completely. This interpretation of the beast is new to me but does seem valid. It's just that after several readings of Revelation and a few in-depth studies I refuse to believe that any one interpretation can be privileged to the others. I believe the book serves multiple purposes. For example, I have read one study that claimed the book of Revelation was written by John to strengthen the resolve of the early church under persecution. That the anti-Christ spoken of (or maybe not :) ) was the current emperor of Rome and that the mark was the homage one had to pay to Caesar before entering Roman markets. I believe that God was smart enough to write a book that could serve multiple purposes.
My take on the beast...
"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 18:5).
To me, the wine that all nations have drank from is western civilization. The inherent materialism and gluttony found in western civilization is responsible for the continued destruction of creation. It has been spread to all nations of the world and continues to corrupt.
@Linny: I do know that many have hardened their hearts. Instead of getting red in the face arguing with people I have learned it is better to lead by example... a glass can only spill what it contains! As for the wild hair, maybe you're right. Then again, Christ did command his adult followers to become like children.
On a similar note, does anyone know why John the Baptist himself lived in the wilderness? I mean, I know that the voice in the wilderness was a fulfillment of prophecy but I also think that there is a reason that a voice from the wilderness set the stage for Christ. I wonder if John too felt the need to escape from Rome and her gluttony.
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Who was that naked prophet in the Old Testament? Young brother, if he had your attitude, he would berate John the Baptist for wearing clothes. The vegetarians would praise him for the wild honey, but lambast him for eating those poor locusts--except for the lacto-insecto-vegetarians who would appreciate the example he set for their cause in Scripture. That's really what's important, isn't it? That Scripture supports our radicalism and makes us feel better about being here. Right? I speak as a fool.
At twenty years old you're still looking for your "identity". Why don't you let the Lord Jesus tell you who you are? He made you.
At whatever age, you're going to do whatever the Lord has foreknown you will do. At twenty years old, much, if not most, of what you'll do is foolishness. None of the Apostles disappeared into the wilderness. All of them moved in the world to do the work God had called them to do. Don't be stubborn--read the scripture Akira laid out for you. Read it slowly. Understand the words. Do you think Jesus would have prayed in John 17:15 "I am not asking you to take them out of the world but to protect them from the evil one."
Do you need more protection than the rest of us? Do you need sooo much that you have to run to the forest? Is it 'all those pesky other people and governments and society' that are evil and your heart and motives are pure as snow? If you think you need to go off the deep-end with some sort of ideological phariseeism, then Go. God will be there too. But don't think for a moment that this is an act of righteousness. I think it's an act of cowardice.
Akira is absolutely right...it's not the world that needs to change, it's not even the surroundings of YOUR personal world that need to change. It's the world inside YOU that needs to change. Unless God calls you specifically like John the Baptist and that naked prophet, then hang in here with the rest of us.
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I think you have me all wrong.
I know I'm young and now I am feeling pretty foolish indeed for posting my age :)
I don't mean to sound high and mighty. I've just learned too much to ignore it all. I'm talking about the fact that, here in the United States of America, we import pretty much everything available on the shelves. Why? It can be made cheaper in other countries. Why can it be made cheaper? Because these specific countries lack labor laws allowing the creation of literal wage slaves. Children work for hours on end for as little as 50 cents an hour. Our lifestyles' are impossible without suffering throughout the world.
The change inside me is happening and my compassion swells for my neighbors all over the planet. I'm wondering, Dave, what exactly happens after this change inside occurs? How will they know us? By our love? That's what Christ said.
I just want to say that I did not come here to argue my point or win anyone over. In all honesty I came here to be proven wrong. My heart and mind is open.
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I think you have me all wrong.
I know I'm young and now I am feeling pretty foolish indeed for posting my age :)
I don't mean to sound high and mighty. I've just learned too much to ignore it all. I'm talking about the fact that, here in the United States of America, we import pretty much everything available on the shelves. Why? It can be made cheaper in other countries. Why can it be made cheaper? Because these specific countries lack labor laws allowing the creation of literal wage slaves. Children work for hours on end for as little as 50 cents an hour. Our lifestyles' are impossible without suffering throughout the world.
The change inside me is happening and my compassion swells for my neighbors all over the planet. I'm wondering, Dave, what exactly happens after this change inside occurs? How will they know us? By our love? That's what Christ said.
I just want to say that I did not come here to argue my point or win anyone over. In all honesty I came here to be proven wrong. My heart and mind is open.
Why do you feel you are misunderstood instead of being corrected? If you feel that others 'have you all wrong' when and how can one try to correct and admonish you in the spirit?
This is nothing new to members who have been on this forum for more than a little while...a new member (and sometimes older) who feel they have figured it all out, ask others about their 'revelation' stating they are seeking correction and sound counsel, but then resist any and all spiritual truths on the matter.
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun
Zeph 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.
Rev. 18:7-8 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
2 Thess 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Shane (or any member for that matter), if you don't know who and what you are in these scriptures (and plenty more that Ray has taught on), then it doesn't matter what corner of the earth you run to or what other civilization you turn to...you will continue to worship the Beast and it's image.
Marques
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I can't prove you wrong without getting into a long political discussion. I don't even think you're entirely wrong, so I'd have an even harder time trying to wrestle you away from 'the movement'. That's not the purpose of the forum, nor is it the purpose of my walk with Christ. All I can say is that this is a huge and hugely complex world. And that agendized 'factoids' do not automatically lead to truth. And a heart filled with compassion is not the same thing as hard-nosed, informed love. I've also learned you can't argue with an idealogue. You have to knock the -ism prism off their face before you're even on the same page--even in agreement.
You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight. Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate. ;D
Maybe that doesn't sound as exciting as a WTO demonstration, but its why God made you.
And pull your pants up, dagnabbit! :D
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Hi there Shane,
Im relatively new to these truths also. I can empathize with your feelings of wanting to get away from it all. Ive felt this way at different points in my life as well. You seem to be struggling with the concept from two different perspectives. First, there is the growing immorality and second is the consumerism and gross consumption of western societies at the expense of slave labor in the third world.
Here is how I have come to terms with these feelings when they arise. Maybe this helps.
Big picture:
God is in total control and he loves and cares for all people. What this tells me is that all the wickedness and inequities throughout the history of the world have a good purpose. What this also tells me is that those living in wickedness, luxury and excess at the expense of others are likely to be judged by God in such a way that they learn humility, holiness, and develop a heart for others. Also, those who suffer in poverty and slave labor will be comforted by almighty God in such a way that there will be joy and no more tears. In light of the current suffering and inequity, it is a wonderful thing to look forward to God's judgements. There will be a time when all this is made right.
Practical application for me:
God doesnt want me to try to get away from the things of this world. I believe that learning to live in such a world, in a way that emulates Jesus, is judgement for the elect right now. The only way to live holy and upright in this world is to learn to die to the flesh. Have a problem with your sexual appetite?... its all around us... if you dont die to the flesh, you'll never overcome. Have alot of money and the cares associated with it?... if you dont learn to shun the love of money you will not overcome. Have a certain seemingly benign hobby like golf, poker, world of warcraft that has become an idol of the heart?... if you do not learn to rid yourself of these idols you will not overcome. In running to the hills or trying to remove ourselves from the society in which God has placed us, I believe most of us would be shunning the very circumstances God uses to judge us.
Finally beware of false guilt. God had you born into a modern family in the United States of America. He did not chose to have you born into a poor family in southeast asia. This probably means he intends to train you and use you right where you are. It is the spiritual that is real and lasting but God seems to teach us alot of spiritual lessons through physical circumstances. Learning to live in moderation in a society plagued with excess is sure to be a meaningful spiritual lesson. We have certain unique ways of being judged by God in modern day America than others born in different times and circumstances have had. Im sure there is purpose behind this. You might even view your comparably wealthy circumstances as a particularly difficult judgement of God. Jesus did not say "It is harder for a poor man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to go through the eye of the needle".
So it helps me to understand that God judges us spiritually through the things we experience in our everyday lives, and in the societies in which he has chosen for us to live. And if you think of our purpose here in a spiritual sense, being born in a wealthy country such as ours may be a greater challenge from a perspective of learning to die to the flesh then being born in "less fortunate" circumstances.
So this is how I deal with the urge to get away from it all. Hope it may help in some small way.
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"You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight. Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate."
I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle? Like I said previously, if my lifestyle creates the necessity for slave labor throughout the world, how am I not living in sin?
@Mc_Can: Did God chose to have me born here? Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire? Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please? 16,000 children die of starvation every single day. Is this God? Or is it the greed of men? Men who refuse to let go of their possessions and luxuries even when their brothers and sisters throughout the world are starving to death.
2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.
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"You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight. Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate."
I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle? Like I said previously, if my lifestyle creates the necessity for slave labor throughout the world, how am I not living in sin?
@Mc_Can: Did God chose to have me born here? Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire? Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please? 16,000 children die of starvation every single day. Is this God? Or is it the greed of men? Men who refuse to let go of their possessions and luxuries even when their brothers and sisters throughout the world are starving to death.
2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.
If you really , really , really , really , really like to understand, then go here http://www.bible-truths.com/ (http://www.bible-truths.com/)
Read everything 2-3 times and when you return from this ordeal in full understanding, you should be well into your late 30's or early 40's, what say you ?
Rodger
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Hi Shane,
You need to stop now and learn; you are yet carnal so you cannot even understand anything Spiritual.
God is not in damage control mode; everything He has purposed Is happening According to His Will.
Your Free Will is non existent, null, never was, is an illusion in your mind.
See if you can understand who the below Scriptures are talking to;
John 4:24:
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 6:63:
It is the spirit that vivifies; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak
to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Romans: 1: 20-23
20-For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly
seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting
power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.
21-Because, knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, neither gave thanks,
but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22-Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23-and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of
corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.
I Corinthians 2:14:
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
george. :)
Ps. This is an excerpt from your first post; and the reason you do not yet see.
Hello everyone. I just found Ray's website and much encouragement in it. I haven't had the time to read it all, and I know I'm breaking the rules by posting, but I'd really like some advice.
You need to read a whole lot more; but it is really good for you.
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Hello Shane,
I understand your feelings. I've done my own share of researching the recent history of our government, as well as governments in general. I had some similar thoughts myself for awhile...
The first thing you have to do is believe and accept that God alone is in control.
Romans 19:10-11: Pilate, then, is saying to Him, "To me you are not speaking! Are you not aware that I have authority to release you and have authority to crucify you?" Jesus answered him, "No authority have you against Me in anything, except it were given to you from above. Therefore he who is giving Me up to you has the greater sin."
Yes even our corrupt government gets its power and authority from God. Of course, that doesn't mean that they can do whatever they want, and it doesn't matter...
But just as God ALONE gives them their authority, God ALONE is responsible for their Judgment! It is not OUR [or YOUR] job to speak out against or judge the government, or anyone in power..
With ONE exception:
Acts 5:29 - Yet answering, Peter and the apostles say, "One must yield to God rather than to men..."
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
And Remember that it is "through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom" [Acts 14:22], NOT through 'escaping' or 'running away' from tribulation.
May the God of PEACE be with you,
Christopher.
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Hi Shane,
I think you need to read the material on this web site before posting questions like these. I'll give you some short answers, but you can go back to the web site articles and get the full answers to all your questions.
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I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle?
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Humility. When you can be humble like a child before God, asking, listening, and accepting what He gives you, it is then that he opens eyes and ears, gives us understanding, and heals us. "God sets himself against the proud, but he shows favor to the humble." (James 4:6).
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Did God chose to have me born here? Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire?
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Yes. Of course God planned for you to be born exactly the place and time and way that you were. God's will is for us to obey and submit to the authorities placed over us, so your ancestors were resisting His will in the American Revolutionary War. However, that war was also God's will. How, you ask? Because many times it is God's will that we RESIST His will for a while. Look at Pharaoh - "Let my people go" yet "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." (Exodus 7:10-13).
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Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please?
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We make our own choices, using our own minds. It's just that our minds are 100% influenced by things such as God's divine influence, our environment, our experiences, and other circumstances. Since all of these things operate and occur according to God's will, then so does our will. We will will to do exactly what God wills us to. See Ray's series on Free Will for a lot more in-depth look.
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16,000 children die of starvation every single day. Is this God? Or is it the greed of men?
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Yes and Yes. You must understand that God is not evil, and that God hates evil. However, God created and uses evil to accomplish His perfect (non-evil) will. God is working in all of creation a lengthy process that will ultimately make man in His image. To sum up what that image is, it is to know both good and evil, but to ultimately desire and do only good - like God. If not for these terrible things, we would be unable to know evil, and learn to hate it, and learn to love righteousness.
It is not evil for God to use evil, if he can make all things righteousness in the end. It is not evil for God to kill a person, because God can and will raise them from the dead.
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2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.
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The Spiritual is what is real and permanent. The physical is what decays and disappears. The two don't get along, either. The carnal mind hates what is good, and cannot obey God's commands. It also hates those that DO. Wrap your mind around that one and you may start to see.
Steve
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"You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight. Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate."
I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle? Like I said previously, if my lifestyle creates the necessity for slave labor throughout the world, how am I not living in sin?
@Mc_Can: Did God chose to have me born here? Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire? Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please? 16,000 children die of starvation every single day. Is this God? Or is it the greed of men? Men who refuse to let go of their possessions and luxuries even when their brothers and sisters throughout the world are starving to death.
2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.
Shane,
Hello, here is an e-mail to Ray about our Fathers Will.
Hope it helps.
Peace... Mark
Gods Will;
I've heard allot of people ask the question what is Gods will for they're lives?
This is my question as well, what is Gods Will?
Is it our own will?
If we live a holy life wont we be in the Will of God what ever we do?
Could you please give me some in site on this question, I've read all of your writings and its caused me to search for answers more than ever.
I've found that in the past ,I've more less believed the teachings of others and never read the bible for myself. Its great to read and see that the bible is nothing like I've been taught. I'm tired of living according to teachers ,preachers . I want to live according to what God wants, and what the Bible actually teaches.Your site has been very informative.Thanks T
Dear Teresa:
If you will read or reread my four-part series on "The Myth of Free Will Exposed," you will know a great deal about the will of God. I am now going to teach you something very very profound, so listen carefully:
EVERYTHING that happened in your life, in the past, WAS God's purpose for your life at that time.
EVERYTHING that will happen in your life, in the future, WILL BE God's purpose for you at that time.
Then why do anything? Why try? Why care? Why be good? Why study? Why pray? For WHAT?
Here is where viritually all Christians and all theologians and all ministers turn their minds off.
What you did in the past was influenced and caused by your environment of the past.
What you do in the future will be influenced and caused by your environment of the future.
What you are hearing and learning from bibletruths.com is one of those environmental
happenings that will have an effect on your future. You may not see how, but God does.
If God is choosing you as one of the called/chosen/elect/few, then you WILL respond
to the information and circumstances that God Himself will be directing in your life.
If you desire to stop sinning and start obeying God, then that being CAUSED in your
heart and mind, and you have no idea were and when it really began. God knows.
This is a subject for a 300 page book, not a short email. Hope you understand. Keep reading.
God be with you,
Ray
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I think I am beginning to understand. All of your posts have been very helpful so far. Thank you so much for them. I also promise to do my reading before I carry this on much further. I just have a couple more points where I am having confusion.
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
I agree completely, I guess we would just differ on what exactly is against God's law. I'm having trouble believing that supporting sweat shops throughout the world is not against God's law. For me it comes down to Matthew 18:8.
"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."
I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off. It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin!
Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading. Thanks again for entertaining my questions.
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I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off. It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin! Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading. Thanks again for entertaining my questions.
You could go nude and live on an island, and still you will sin.
Entertaining your questions is a rather rude assumption on your part, after tolerance and patience bestowed on you.
Rodger
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I think I am beginning to understand. All of your posts have been very helpful so far. Thank you so much for them. I also promise to do my reading before I carry this on much further. I just have a couple more points where I am having confusion.
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
I agree completely, I guess we would just differ on what exactly is against God's law. I'm having trouble believing that supporting sweat shops throughout the world is not against God's law. For me it comes down to Matthew 18:8.
"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."
I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off. It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin!
Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading. Thanks again for entertaining my questions.
Hey Shane,
The key part of my statement was if someone in power asks you to do something against God's commandment, then don't do it. I'm sure the Roman government did horrible things all the time, but not once did Jesus speak out against any of it. In fact, the only time He rose His voice was against His Own Church and His Disciples. Does this mean Jesus was somehow supporting what the Government was doing? Not at all! But He let God deal with them. If Jesus Christ never spoke out against them, then what gives you [us] the right? Does this mean we can't ever express your opinions regarding what our Government is doing? Not at all. IN FACT I do speak out a little on my myspace page. [link provided below]
But it isn't our [followers of Christ] place to stand up against them.
If God has determined that a certain government needs to be overthrown, then God will make it happen. He has ways, and He has necessary tools [people] to get the job done. But it won't be us [believers], I can assure you that:
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." - Matthew 26:52
Besides, how could you obey Christ's commandments to "love your enemies, do good to them, turn the other cheek, forgive and be forgiven, etc" if you are leading a revolt [even a 'friendly' one] against the government? One thing is for sure, the American Government IS on God's list of factions that must be Judged. But only God alone knows when and how that will happen.
I highly recommend reading Ray's Article, "When The Towers Fell" as it is right up your alley:
http://bible-truths.com/towers.htm
And my intent is not to put you down, as I said before, I've gone through similar emotions as you are. In fact, I have just begun to understand these things over the past few months! It hurts to know all the horrible things that are going on around the world, but quite frankly we can't fix it all. Only God can heal this world. All you can do is accept His Will, in hope that He will give you the understanding necessary to guide you in the right path. It's not easy, not at all, but if you want to be His Follower, you must.
"Be humbled, then, in the Lord's sight, and He shall be exalting you."
- James 4:10
Don't be afraid to ask questions. No one here will judge you, because they know if they do, then their judgment will be returned to them by God. As long as you are honestly seeking Truth, and not just starting confrontations [as it appears to me you are seeking Truth], then we are your brethren.
May God continue to guide you safely through the valley of darkness, towards the Light.
- Daywalker.
http://www.myspace.com/focker714
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"Entertaining your questions is a rather rude assumption on your part, after tolerance and patience bestowed on you."
I'm truly very sorry. I had no intention of being rude. Perhaps I should learn more about a phrase before putting it into action ???
So thanks so much to everyone who replied for your tolerance and patience.
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:)
Rodger
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Shane, I'll garuntee you that if you can come to a knowledge of the Truth--truth about God and truth about yourself--you'll find exactly what you are looking for in being humbled/persecuted/tested. You won't have to hack off a limb or maim yourself socially. You'll begin to die.
Then you can study economics. :D
Hang in there.
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Shane, some of the things said here may sound harsh to you , but you need to remember that a lot of us here have lived through a lot and learned, through that living. You didn't even have to reveal your age to most of us your post revealed it for you!
We can all attest to the fact that as you live out your life daily some of the questions you ask are answered automatically. Most of them require deep thought and study of the scriptures. I remember how it feels as well how fervently you set out to share the new things you have learned, it's not that age destroys your enthusiasm, it's that you learn what Jesus was about by going through this life in this place! God put you here for a reason it may take you a lot of years to get to where God is ultimately going to send you, then maybe it won't take long at all, God has time for everything!
Take time to look around you and learn the lessons you have to learn, then if God sends you into the wilderness you'll be prepared for it. Remember Jesus was thirty years old when He went into the wilderness, He didn't have to stay there long before He knew exactly what His Father required of Him!
Go ahead now and read and study. Please know that no one here wants to offend or belittle you we ALL want to see you succeed in your life with Christ! :D
Kathy ;)
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Shane, I personally find you to be quite humble and I wanted to praise you for not taking offense to harshness.
Most people, no matter what their age, struggle with that.
I hope you will take some time to really read and study and come back here. You will still have lots of questions as we all do. But you will get so many answers to the more obvious questions and misconceptions you have now. I quake at the thought of what all I may have said if I'd come to the forum before having read a lot of Ray's teachings! :o
Bless you!
Lin
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I think I am beginning to understand. All of your posts have been very helpful so far. Thank you so much for them. I also promise to do my reading before I carry this on much further. I just have a couple more points where I am having confusion.
If a government official, beit a police officer, or soldier, or even the President of the United States himself, ASKS YOU to do something that you know is against God's Law, then yes you do have the authority and are commanded to "yield to God rather than to men".
I agree completely, I guess we would just differ on what exactly is against God's law. I'm having trouble believing that supporting sweat shops throughout the world is not against God's law. For me it comes down to Matthew 18:8.
"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."
I feel like modern living causes sin and that I should cut it off. It sounds drastic... almost as drastic as cutting off a limb that causes us to sin!
Like I said, I'll keep quiet until I do the reading. Thanks again for entertaining my questions.
Just a quick observation here. Would it be better for those working overseas for a mere .50 cents an hour if we stopped employing them entirely?? Who are we to say that that fifty cents is not a blessing from God (as I am sure some consider it)? Don't get me wrong here, my heart goes out to those living in underdeveloped, underprivileged countries. However, it humbles me and causes me to give thanks to the Almighty for the blessings he has bestowed on me (us). In return for those blessings, or as a show of gratitude, I am obligated to take only what I need and no more. This, like Mc_can pointed out, is a very difficult undertaking.....the task of "overcoming", understanding and then accepting, that the flesh profits NOTHING.
Eileen
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Eileen, I was thinking the exact thing, the people would be worse no work at all.
This could be their means of survival, I would imagine they are happy to get a paycheck.
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I think that you and some other members may be suffering from a really bad case of Affluenza, this is an affliction and a movement that started awhile back. It is absolutely not religious .....but a socio-political movement.
It is does profess some truths (waste greed etc), but they are wrapped in many lies and deceptions (guilt socialism, spread the wealth). Don't think that the people that promote these ideas do not have political and social agendas. They most certainly do.
Yes the 'world" has these problems...but you are wrong it is not the western world...have you taken a good look at the caste system in India...the communist world of Cuba and China...these were poor but never the less mean hearted toward one class of their people. Each culture has this...the haves and the have nots.
There is nothing new under the sun.....vanity vanity....written by the richest man in all of Judea.
Regarding the wilderness....
Hagar, not Sarah was sent to the wilderness
The 12 tribes wandered in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment.
Act 13:18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness
Re John the Baptist, if your read history, you would find that the Sadducee's replaced or rather bought their positions as priests and assisted in the annihilation of the Aaronic priests...John's father was one...who knows what persecutions that occurred.
At any rate read Isaiah
(Isa 40:3) A voice is crying--in a wilderness--Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to our God.
There are no commas in Greek or Hebrew...so
it is those who are in the "wilderness" who needed to turn around and face the way of God and make a straight course to God.
Regarding John and revelations, if you read the translations of many of the early church fathers, John is hardly mentioned in these but Paul and Peter were, even though John was still much alive. Read john letters, remember that he was a "son of thunder", do you think he sat quietly when the false leaven creeped into the early church. Paul saw it too and wrote about it but was more assimilated into greek/Roman culture.
John was shunned by the people who were taking over the church. These are the same people who later came up with the trinity and persecuted the followers of Christ. They are the ones who changed te sabbath to Sunday (which even the catholic church readily admits this) so they could distant themselves from those Jewish Christians who believed everone would be saved and lived the life after Christ. It was all about power and money.
You are right the scriptures are multileveled. Remember that they are inspired words of God to every age and to every individual.
Remember if you decide to live in the wilderness....like the steward that was given a talent....you may not be investing it...but keeping it under the bushel basket....supposedly safe.
Regarding affluenza see part 6 of the PBS video on you tube, you can address some of the problems that you are concerned with at least on a personal level.
My advise, if you are inclined ....study for a career, then get a job , live frugally.... if you do ....then ....you will have both time and money to persue the works of God either locally or abroad.
I think this movement is much like the green movement and is similar to the nuclear bomb and the peace movement that we grew up with .....all fear mongers aimed at the youth......the powers and principalities like these.......so you will not REST in God.
Regarding the beast.... read the 17th century John Dunne
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee (Devotions upon Emergent Occasions, #17).
No man is capable of doing this...when .heor /his beast... is on the throne....thinking that he is capable of deciding what is good and evil ....and he will not recognize that only God is righteous and .....only He can do this.
beloved
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Wow, beloved. Just wow.
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Amen! Well said!
Kathy :)
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Shane, if you're still reading this thread I won't bother you any more...after this. Beloved's post and quote of John Donne moved me to attempt another stab.
I ask your pardon for assuming things not fully in evidence (namely your allegiance to or having been influenced by a movement such as Beloved described, or similar). I still believe it's true, but I may have jumped down your throat a little too hastily or forcefully. Still, you said you liked the 'fools, hypocrites, snakes' article, and I talk with my best friends with harder words at times. ;D
I prepared this for you this evening, and I tried very hard not to press any particular socio-economic or political points or viewpoints, as it is simply facts and a bit of direction you both sought and need. I hope this helps.
You're quotes are in italics.
I'm talking about the fact that, here in the United States of America, we import pretty much everything available on the shelves. Why? It can be made cheaper in other countries.
Why can it be made cheaper? Because these specific countries lack labor laws allowing the creation of literal wage slaves.
Come on, now...LITERAL wage slaves? Literal slave wages are zero, zip, nada.
Children work for hours on end for as little as 50 cents an hour.
I assume you mean in other countries. Where else in the world do employers pay employees in US Dollars or fractions of Dollars? Maybe in some farflung US protectorate, but not in any of the countries you'd commonly see on the 'made in...' label..
Why is that important? Because when workers are paid in the currency of their home country, it relates to a piece of their domestic economy.
I'll give you an example with Thailand, a country I am somewhat familiar with., and an exporter to the West. Thailand is neither 3rd world or 1st world, but is considered a Developing Nation. There is wealth in Thailand, and there is poverty, but there isn't extreme poverty to the point of starvation. Thailand is neither Switzerland nor Chad.
The Currency in Thailand is the Thai Baht. Everybody uses it, even tourists.
When I first became interested in Thailand, the Baht was exchanged for the USD at about 25 Bt to the $. A teacher in Thailand (Thai, not a foreigner working in a language school) makes about 6000 Baht a month. You can figure that into 'hours', but it would have taken $240 USD to exchange for that much Thai money.
Note the way I phrased that--to EXCHANGE. Two-hundred-forty USD did not EQUAL 6000 Baht. Why not? Because one currency is related to the American economy (traded in the world) and the other is related to the Thai economy (traded in the world).
What does that mean? In Thailand that teacher in a medium income profession is making Thai money and spending it in Thailand. That teacher can rent a decent apartment for 1500 Baht a month. (that would have exchanged for 60 Dollars). She can eat three meals a day at small vendors and restaraunts (the preferred eating style of Thai) for about 100-120 Baht. (that would exchange for 4 or 5 USD a day)...much cheaper if she cooks it herself.
Everything she buys (that isn't an import or heavily taxed) is cheaper. Could a typical American live on 240 Dollars a month? Of course not, unless they were 'off the grid'. But she can. And unless she is educated in international stree-level economics, she doesn't even KNOW how little her Baht would 'buy' in the US. And why should she care? She's living in Thailand.
Exchange rates between currencies fluctuate--almost continuously. A few years ago, the Thai baht was exchanging with the USD at about 40 Baht to the $. That same teacher's salary could then only be exchanged for about 150 USD. Did she get a cut in pay? Of course not. She's not making dollars, she's making Baht.
So I hope you can see it is grossly factually inaacurate to say that this child is making 50 cents an hour. He or she is making not even the equivelant of 50 cents an hour. He or she is making in their home currency what they could exchange for 50 cents. And in countries poorer than Thailand, unless there are shortages, basic living common in that economy would be even less expensive than in Thailand.
So your statement is not 'fact', but an agendized factoid learned ultimately from someone(s) with an opinion. Research the country where the worker ""makes 50 cents an hour"" and try to learn what that means in buying power in their own economy. Tourist brochures don't count. ;) Go to official sources that do not insert opinion.
Related note, it wasn't all that long ago in the US when workers made 50 cents an hour and less. Gas was 15 cents a gallon, a loaf of bread was a nickle, yada, yada, yada...everything your grandparents could tell you. You could live on much less because things cost much less. Why did they cost less--or rather why does it take more dollars now? Partly it's because of increased expectation, but mostly its because the money we make today is a much smaller part of the domestic economy due to inflation. Inflation is not a rise in prices...inflation is a decrease in the value of the currency. It just LOOKS like a rise in prices.
Children work for hours on end for as little as 50 cents an hour. Our lifestyles' are impossible without suffering throughout the world.
Do some hard thinking on where those children and their families might be if they didn't have that income. What is it you would deny them materially if there are no other options for them? Like that Thai teacher, have you spoken to them (or researched their situation) to see whether they are content with their current lot? Can you offer an alternative?
Is there room for political and economic justice in the world? Of course there is. But your escape will do absolutely nothing to bring it about. Since you have eschewed revolution (rightly) then consider hard what you can do. It will include a whole host of things--except what you can't do.
The change inside me is happening and my compassion swells for my neighbors all over the planet.
Feelings, schmeelings. Worthless if either the motivation or the action doesn't spring out of Truth. You liked the article about the harsh words of Jesus to the Pharisees and scribes. That's what characterized their lives--bad motivation and worthless action.
How will they know us? By our love? That's what Christ said.
We don't have love greater than God is.
I said hard-nosed and informed in another post.
Rom 5:8 ...God is commending this love of His to us, seeing that, while we are still sinners, Christ died for our sakes.
1 Timothy 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom I am.
Do you see 'informed' in those? Might that be a good pattern for you?
I'm wondering, Dave, what exactly happens after this change inside occurs?
That's a challenging question, and in specifics your answer will be different from mine. For all of us, it's like this:
Php 2:9.10 Wherefore also, God highly exalts him (Christ) and graces Him with a name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing , celestial and terretrial, and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
You're in there too. You're acclaiming (acknowledging and agreeing fully) that Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus is Lord. That's what happens when your heart changes.
Anyways...I'm not your lord, and neither are you. :) I don't want to see your feelings, or some social movement or ideology, or peer pressure, or your religious convictions, or anything short of the Lordship of Christ move you to such drastic steps--especially when I don't believe you have all the facts. And most especially before you know the truth about yourself and the Sovereign God.
To do such a rash action for no good reason would be foolish. To do it (or anything) with an impure motive would only be it's own reward, and that's such a pitiful exchange for such a large decision.
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Shane,
Having being blessed to have a brother in this world by the same name, I suppose I was drawn to this topic for my first response. And while not having such a deep understanding of the finer points, which I am sure have been presented here, or may well be brought to light at yet a later time; I will endeavor to do like unto Peter (Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. Acts 3:6) and simply offer that which I have.
While skimming the prior responses to your inquiry, I did happen to note that there was mention that Ray would have us to do what Jesus would do.
So with that theme in mind, (WWJD) I will present a few more verses to shed some light on this subject.
John 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
1 Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;
John 17:14-26
14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Heh... let me chime in here and say... I don't think that sounds like a hell theory to me.. :)
John 3:16-21
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
How is this represented in the world today?
Ephesians 4:12-16
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
We are the Body of Christ...
If we are the Body of Christ, and we are still in the world, then there should still be light in the world....right?
Why are we to be light?
Matthew 5:14-16
14. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
To offer direction to the lost, and to edify the Body.
He is in us...
John 9:5. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Philippians 2:12-16
12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15. That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16. Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
We are to be His ambassadors here on earth until He returns, He will accomplish His plan with or without us, but what an honor to be of service to the King? There may be times in which a wilderness experience is needed... as He separates us and molds us more specifically for a given task without the interference usually found within the normal circles of society. Yet as someone earlier pointed out about the other people that were in the wilderness; It usually did not prove to be the place one would want to be, and even Jesus only stayed for 40 days. I believe like someone else mentioned... You were Born in America for a reason, what reason is that?.....To be of greater service to the King....you live in the land of opportunity... what greater example do you need... the current president is the son of an immigrant.... All things are possible to him who believes, especially if that believer also knows Who to believe in....While I don't consider myself associated with any particular denomination... I do agree with your notion that things in this age are starting to become Kingdom focused....The Kingdom of God was Jesus message... and is what we look forward to... why not be central to what He is doing in these last days...
Well, I have endeavored to offer mostly scripture, and comment as little as possible...as I know I am still learning myself...
I consider it an honor to have met such a fine group of believers :)
Keep your Focus on Serving the King!
Zer0ne
P.S.
One other thought after reading more into the topic...How could western civilization be the wine that all nations have partaken of, if in fact at the time this was written there was no way for any civilizations to be affected by a western civilization? Plus, I would like to think that whatever, this is referring to would have actually had the same impact on "ALL" nations from beginning to end... yet here in the end of time, once and for all there will be an end put to this atrocity. Just some food for thought. :)
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Hi Shane
Lets get right back down to basics.
Jesus did not pray to the Father to take us OUT of the world but that we may be protected by the evil one.
We are told in the Book of Revelations that if we OVERCOME we shall enjoy the rewards. What are we to overcome. We are to overcome the trials and temptations and tribulations that we suffer. We are not told to ESCAPE from such trials and tribulations but that such trials and tribulations are the WAY into the Kingdom of God.
Non can enter such a Kingdom by anything they can do without Christ. We all enter through the Endurance, Wisdom, Mercy, Pity, Faith and Passion OF CHRIST.
There is nothing you or I can DO. The doing is in the hands of the potter not the pot.
How long does this doing take?
A life time and then it still is not complete. The work of God we are told continues upon the Resurrection to life and until Christ submits all to God the Father including Himself.
You appear to me to be in the pain with struggling, seeking and not knowing the answers to your questions. I believe we here in this Forum can all identify with this part of the path to the deeper insights that only the Spirit of Christ can open to our hearts and minds. Your struggle appears to me like God is dragging you to His Son. Find some comfort in this.
All go against God's Will. This is the process through which God conforms us to the image of His Faithfull Obedient Son that is in line with His Plan and Purpose for all humanity. There is no quick fix. God's process is long suffering. Very long suffering to bring out the spotless image of His perfect Son that is promised to us. Paul says that for our MOMENTARY affliction, the consequence of glory far exceeds any suffering. Well do we all know that such words ring empty in the vortex and moment of suffering. That is why we have our brethren to encourage us with those same encouragements we received when we were in the furnace of affliction.
If you're not in the furnace of affliction to know the Truth and be settled in the insights of Christ, do not worry you will get there. All are appointed to the Lake of Fire. Non are too good for it either.
Arc.
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Zer0ne....no better reply can anyone give that with the truth of the Word of God.
Shane, I pray that the Word that has gone forth will not return void in your life. Christ himself said "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John16:33)
What better place to learn to become overcomers that in this world and its warts and flaws...knowing in our hearts that "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:16) We cannot remove ourselves from this world until Christ returns, we are the light of this world......let your light shine and remember that love conquers all.
Heidi
PS Welcome to the forum ZerOne.....and what an introduction! I look forward to getting to know you as we all seek to know the truth....."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
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I think that the poor can be much richer in a spiritual sense. Jesus warned that it is easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those of us in affluent communities can be grateful for our abundance. However, it carries much more challenges and responsibilities in a sense. Since we may have so much luxury and physical comforts and temptations in the kingdom of western civilization it can be hard to enter the kingdom of heaven. Living an ascetic lifestyle in the wilderness or fasting may be good for a time if you need to get your spirit away from the temptations (think Jesus fasting in the desert). However we still live in the world and it is hard to be the salt of the earth and give to others if we are living off the grid.
Acts 20:35 "...ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Proverbs 31:20 "She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy." (the virtuous woman)
Proverbs 30:8
Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
Work brings profit, but mere talk leads to poverty! - Proverbs 14:23
These are my thoughts correct me if I am wrong.
-Steve
Edit: Many of the moderately poor people are probably happier than rich people.
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I think that the poor can be much richer in a spiritual sense. Jesus warned that it is easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those of us in affluent communities can be grateful for our abundance. However, it carries much more challenges and responsibilities in a sense. Since we may have so much luxury and physical comforts and temptations in the kingdom of western civilization it can be hard to enter the kingdom of heaven. Living an ascetic lifestyle in the wilderness or fasting may be good for a time if you need to get your spirit away from the temptations (think Jesus fasting in the desert). However we still live in the world and it is hard to be the salt of the earth and give to others if we are living off the grid.
Acts 20:35 "...ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Proverbs 31:20 "She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy." (the virtuous woman)
Proverbs 30:8
Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
Work brings profit, but mere talk leads to poverty! - Proverbs 14:23
These are my thoughts correct me if I am wrong.
-Steve
Edit: Many of the moderately poor people who have their needs met (not desitute) are probably happier than rich people.
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Shane,
I have just read all the posts to your question regarding your feeling that you need to come completely out of the economic system and that you seek suffering for CHRIST"S sake. I feel this is much like praying for a wilderness experience that very few are prepared to handle.
While I also abhor the waste and greed evidenced in the U. S., I also see the good the U. S. has accomplished in aiding the rest of the world. Of course, it could be better but no nation has been as generous and this is evidenced by the way people throughout the world try to get into this country.
The good advice to keep reading the works of L. Ray Smith and this forum is the best advice I can offer. GOD has you where HE wants you and HE will perform HIS perfect will in your life. I can assure you that if HIS will is for you to suffer HE will perform HIS perfect will in your life. We should all take the economic blessings HE give to us and share with others less fortunate. I thank GOD that HE chose for me to be born in the U. S. and not some poor nation where I would probably already be dead and would have little opportunity to know HIS SON. Seek HIS leading and thank HIM for HIS blessings.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Dave, my statement was a generalization. I am well aware of the fact that people in foreign countries are paid in their own currency. That doesn't change the fact that we enjoy our luxuries at the expense of others. As I said, there's a reason the United States imports everything. I could go on and on but here is what this all comes down to:
Civilization is not sustainable. Civilization requires specialization which requires a surplus of food. A surplus of food inevitably leads to overpopulation and the depletion of resources. 99% of all of our ancestors lived primitively. Humans were meant to live primitively. Civilization is brand new and, since its inception, it has gradually strangled creation.
The assumption that my ideology is informed by some trendy movement is just boring. From where I'm standing your heart looks hardened. I'm sure you would think the same of me. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and trust that, through Christ, we will come to the same conclusion.
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"You ask 'what exactly happens after this change occurs' like it happens overnight. Dude, it won't even happen before you graduate."
I'm asking biblically, once I have turned away from sin, how exactly that manifests itself in my lifestyle? Like I said previously, if my lifestyle creates the necessity for slave labor throughout the world, how am I not living in sin?
@Mc_Can: Did God chose to have me born here? Or did my ancestors defy God's will in creating this empire? Also, is God in total control or did he gift us creation and also the free will to use it as we please? 16,000 children die of starvation every single day. Is this God? Or is it the greed of men? Men who refuse to let go of their possessions and luxuries even when their brothers and sisters throughout the world are starving to death.
2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV) Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
I would really like to understand exactly what brings forth such persecution if this change in me manifests itself in a purely spiritual sense.
If you really , really , really , really , really like to understand, then go here http://www.bible-truths.com/ (http://www.bible-truths.com/)
Rodger
Read everything 2-3 times and when you return from this ordeal in full understanding, you should be well into your late 30's or early 40's, what say you ?
Shane,I love you my Brother,so, as to agree with Brother Rodger, I have to give his post a BIG +1.
Peace... Mark
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Hi Shane,
I look at this world as being the way the Creator intended it to be, with those who have the luxuries and those that have little or nothing. I believe this present age is to show mankind through experiences by their own actions the evil that there is and so there is all of these bad things happening that you want to escape from.
I believe this world will continue on it's present path towards destruction until the return of Jesus Christ to usher in the new world/age. I think that we should do our best to help other whereever we find ourselves, as God gives us opportunity. But nothing will change the course this world is on as God works out His plan.
It does matter how we live and what we do with what we are given now though, as all will give account for how we have lived.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
v.8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
v. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.
v. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Rom 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
v. 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
v. 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
v. 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
v. 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
v. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Shane, Kat is so right.
My husband and I have watched many documentaries and read a lot about the horrible crimes against others you speak of and do not wish to participate in. Being in our present financial situation has been very frustrating but what it has taught us is that we are all given a sphere of influence and that is where we must obey the Scriptures and be a light and a help to those put in our path.
It is amazing just how much one can find to do and how many people one can find to help if you just open your eyes and ask around.
The church and its tithing doctrines have killed this spirit among most people. They think they are fulfilling the directives of God by giving 10% of their income to their church.
But being "poor" (certainly not by the world's standards, but by what we were accustomed to) has also shown us just how stuck we are in this system.
The world and its governments are evil and man is greedy and evil and I can't get away from the "made in China" stickers.
Again, there is something you can do to be a help to others. But you won't be able to do it on an island.
Blessings, Lin
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Dave, my statement was a generalization. I am well aware of the fact that people in foreign countries are paid in their own currency. That doesn't change the fact that we enjoy our luxuries at the expense of others. As I said, there's a reason the United States imports everything. I could go on and on but here is what this all comes down to:
Civilization is not sustainable. Civilization requires specialization which requires a surplus of food. A surplus of food inevitably leads to overpopulation and the depletion of resources. 99% of all of our ancestors lived primitively. Humans were meant to live primitively. Civilization is brand new and, since its inception, it has gradually strangled creation.
The assumption that my ideology is informed by some trendy movement is just boring. From where I'm standing your heart looks hardened. I'm sure you would think the same of me. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and trust that, through Christ, we will come to the same conclusion.
I'd like to steer this conversation in a slightly different direction. Let's stop arguing back and forth about whether Shane's honest and well-meaning desire to self-sacrifice is correct or not. Let's find the things that we agree on together, then work together to see what we CAN do about it? I'll go first...
Let's start by looking at capitalism itself. I'll take a rather physical and practical approach to things, because that seemed the goal of the original poster. Others here are probably better qualified to address the spiritual aspects of this, and many already have.
Henry Ford said that capitalism is, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, "Making the best product you can, at the lowest price you can, while paying the highest wage you can." These days, I believe that definition is incorrect. I'd propose it is now "Making the cheapest product you can, at the highest price you can, while paying the lowest wage you can." The first (Henry Ford's definition) sounds like sharing and solidarity. The second (my modern definition) sounds like selfishness and division.
I don't believe there should be any debate which is the Godly way, and which is not. It is self-evident. Also, either one can manifest in any economic system. Neither one requires "civilization."
So now the question is, as far as living in a capitalistic society is concerned, what can WE do to live Godly? We ARE Jesus' body here on Earth, after all.
We can be like Henry Ford, if we are the employer - pay the best wage we can, rather than looking after our own bonuses and the bottom line, first. We can support those who are like Henry Ford, if we are the consumer. We should find other opportunities to share with the needy, too. Of course, these are both easier said than done, and we WILL suffer persecution if we do this. It will require a simple (not necessarily primitive) and frugal lifestyle.
I do not believe that we are called to CHANGE the society into something else by protests, revolution, voting, or becoming an elected official. Rather, I believe that we are called to live in the society that God has placed us in, and to do so peacefully. Jesus did none of these things against the worldly authorities of His time.
That's all I have time for now. Let's let some others help out, please.
Steve
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Hi Folks,
This thread has run its course. Time to move on.
Rene'