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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Dante on March 27, 2008, 12:12:01 PM
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Ok,....I am gonna throw something out there and see if it sticks.
Since most of the world's population from start to finish has never heard the Word of God, and for that matter never even heard of Jesus Christ, What are the chances that when Jesus states that the only way to the Father is through me. He means that the only way to God is through what Jesus Christ represents.
Now there is so much to God that we cannot even list it here on this page or on the whole internet for that matter.
BUT,...Jesus Christ's Commission was one of Love!
He did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
We are told that God is LOVE. (Please don't respond and state that God is justice etc also, I know that, but God's Justice and every other aspect of God CANNOT come into conflict with any other aspect of his being). ;D Thanks! ;)
If I remember correctly (And please correct me if I am wrong) but Ray states that the Lake of Fire is God, and in fact is a good thing and is in fact God's Loving Mercy for men.
I will TRY to be getting to a point here in the near future, I promise. ::)
In light of all this,...what if Salvation is through Jesus Christ (Who is the embodiment of love), really means Salvation through LOVE? I don't mean that floppy, sappy in-genuine love, but the TRUE unconditional love of God.
Are there others, of other faiths that have reached the level of true unconditional love that God will accept? And will God do so because it is genuine, in spite of the fact that they never heard of Christ??
I ask this because of this reason. At judgment standing before God, let us assume we have seven men.
One is a Loving American Indian who prayed to the Sky Chief out of ignorance, The other is a (Hell Loving) "Christian", the other a Satanic Murderer, the other is a Loving Christian, The other is a Loving Buddhist/Taoist, the next is a pretty nice guy of no particular faith.
The Hell loving Christian will need correction in the Lake of Fire (A good thing for him and for all of us).
The Satanic Murderer will be corrected also, but his acts are Horrid, so he may or may not need more correction (This of course is up to God's wisdom and not of our concern).
The Pretty nice guy, is still off the mark. He needs a bit of correction, but once in the Lake, he almost certainly will repent quit quickly.
The Loving Christian will rule with God and is in no need of correction.
Now we come to the fun, interesting part. (I mean fun as in it is fun to think of how God will make all things right. I do find it really, really fun by the way. I am not making that up.)
The Loving Buddhist/Taoist and Loving American Indian who prayed to the Sky chief out of pure ignorance stand before God. God says to them, I AM GOD. You worshiped incorrectly. I put it to you now that you both acknowledge me, as I AM THAT I AM.
They look at each other for an instance (One shaved head, the other long black hair.) (At this point I would be shaking in my boots) and look back at God and say, Woops God! Sorry about the mix up. We really thought we were doing the correct thing both in our own time and place. YET, we now see that you are the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD.
My Point is this. It matters not if they have to go into the Lake of Fire or not, Since it is A GOOD THING.
What matters and what I am trying to point out is that it may not take much time at all (Or maybe nothing but A small WORD from God) for most of the people who have TRUE love in their hearts to get right with God. Get the correct mindset in them and kill off the OLD MAN.
I do not mean to be offensive to anyone. I am part Iroquois myself, and I respect Buddhism and Taoism as a Philosophy!
I do not mean to make light of the Judgment seat of God BY ANY MEANS! So please don't assume this, as it would make me extremely sad!!
:'(
The query I send out has much more to do with duration of time than whether or not they will go to the lake at all.
We may be able to put it in a way such as this. Some may need JUST A TOE TOUCHING, while others may need a long duration in the Lake of God's Love.
I am sorry if anyone thinks this is a waste of time to think about. And if it is to you, then I apologize for the inconvenience. BUT these are my thoughts that I PONDER and I am a child of the living God and I would hope you would consider my thoughts to be, at the very least worth considering.
Thank you so much and God bless all of you.
With all my love. :D
Dante ;D
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This is an interesting thought I can understand your concern but about these people but I think your premise may be oversimplified.. ?Which God?
With telecommunication and literacy I do not know how many today could not have heard the gospel (even if it was the ugly one about hell). If they heard that they proably rejected it because of thier own traditions and because God did not open their eyes. God is responsible for all.
I also think that all men even those in the past that never were exposed still have a major problem..... SELF...the one on the throne .......During ones lifetime there would be numerouse occasions for this to show itself....every baby is Self centered.
Look at these buddist right now some are resorting to brute physical albeit it 'may be' defensive but what about in their mental thoughts. Remember Jesus held us to a higher standard. Of most religions Buddism on the surface has some correct ideas but they are achieved by self. They are work based.
Jesus Christ came to earth as a sacrafice and example to show mankind that death to self is the way to life. We cannot do this on our own. Our flesh is a trap.
The elect are suppose to go through this fire wile they live now.....Ask yourself what kind of fire your are going through now....many are having difficult times...not always physical....I believe the LOF will be the perfect learning experience for each person....
Perhaps that is what the elect will do ......guide them through this experience so they ....learn righteousness. The elect will take off their linen and put on the wool and enter the physical realm when the people of the 2nd ressurection will dwell.
Like Paul who saw himself as the chief sinner....the elect will know the mercy of God because none of them were mighty renown rich etc....they were the bottom of the barrel in a way. Like Jesus they know the flesh and the struggles that need to be overcomed....
I do not look on the Lake of Fire as a bad thing but more as a rectifier....a do-over....a perfecter. It was God who decided on which team you played the first time...now he is bringing everyone back into the spiritual family after this extremely limiting flesh experience.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3002.0.html
There will be no I us or them there will only be the Father. All in All
Beloved
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This is a question that has been asked and meditated on for centuries, "does one really have to believe in Christ to be saved? How about all the sincere and good people of other faiths?" On it's surface these are very valid questions but I ask good compared to who, other men? Is that good enough for God our Father?
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
One thing we can take comfort in is that no matter what anyone believes all will eventually be saved but they will believe and worship Christ when that day comes, whether in this age or the next.
I agree with Beloved when she stated that the LOF is a time of correction and adjustment and not a finite version of an everlasting hellfire of pure torture, sure some will receive more chastisement than others but the LOF is not going to be a "one size fits all" experience.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
John Chapter 6
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I could not agree with you more Beloved as to God having planned the whole thing. I assure you I believe this fact.
But unless I am mistaken, Ray does state there Are, and Were, and Will be people who have never heard of God. And I believe this to be true also.
But under Buddhist/Taoist Philosophy (Philosophy, not religion) the goal is to rid oneself OF SELF, and to fill oneself with Love and Peace. To care for others above one’s self. Be advised that I am NOT stating that other religions are valid, but that there MAY be validity in the philosophy of men, that MAY actually be from God.
It doesn’t come down to Religion (Since religion is only a man made tool, to TRY to please God) What matters is the person and Whether or not THEY have received the love of God (Or better said, that God has chosen them to give the very nature and love of God).
And what is at the ROOT of my query is whether LOVE is what Jesus IS. And is THIS the thing of which ONE should aspire to obtain. :-\
It is said: Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)
Now, if this passage is true, which it is, does this mean that if a Heathen (A person not of Christian belief) who lays down his life for another, has this GREAT love and is in fact OF GOD? Since it would be very difficult (Yet not impossible) to commit an act such as giving up one’s life for selfish reasons. And if one was not “of self“, would that not mean that they were of someone else,…… perhaps being truly of God.
As Hillsbororiver has stated the answer to my question really does not matter, for ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED (Thank God!). And it is most important to understand this fact. The Lake of Fire is a GOOD THING, and in my opinion should not be feared or looked at in a negative light. Since all that God does is True and proper.
If we were to fear the Lake for ourselves or our loved ones, it would go against what Paul said when he stated that “We should fear nothing”. It also would go against the premise that “Perfect Love Casts Out All Fear“.
Hillsbororiver, you state: On it's surface these are very valid questions but I ask good compared to who, other men? Is that good enough for God our Father?
Dante says:
I am with you all the way on this. God’s standard is of the highest. And I am not debating this.
I am merely asking if God imputes Perfect love to a human, who happen to never have heard of Jesus. And in doing so, are they True Christians also??
We as Christians may have knowledge of God and Christ, but if we DO NOT HAVE LOVE, we are nothing. (I am not trying to insinuate that Christians do not have perfect love imparted to them. For there are those that obviously do!)
But, I most humbly was wondering if anyone had an opinion by using the word of God that there MAY be people who are Christians who have no knowledge of Christ.
If this is so, this MAY be a mark of true Christianity. Since we know, that Knowledge, wisdom, performing miracles and speaking in tongues, among other things, are NOT a proof of being Saved.
Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
So, if a man appears outwardly a good tree by producing good fruit, this MAY be an indicator of his status with God almighty. There are of course people who appear to do good things, yet in the darkness, they do evil.
BUT,..if you seek to truly know a man, and find him without major blemish, and his love shines out for all to see AND LOVE is foremost in his mind, is it possible that this is THE sign that God was speaking of here.
I ask these questions in the most humble fashion and put it to my elders in Christ.
Dante
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Greetings Dante,
Please read Romans ch.2. Here is a sample:
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Hope that helps!
Blessings,
G.
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Romans 7
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
I don't have the words to explain what I'm thinking, but there are laws at work and it isn't as simple as knowing that God is the one true God and choosing him. There is a verse somewhere that says even Satan acknowledges that. I can't find the verse. We are saved through Christ. What does that mean?
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
If it only took a small word from God wouldn't we all have been perfected a long time ago. I know I'm still experiencing that fire and have been for many years. Jesus is the Word of God. I've always thought that the Word is the fire. If we go through Christ, we go through the fire.
Revelation 19:
The Rider on the White Horse
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
There have been a couple of times when I've received truth that was too big for me to handle. I got a better understanding of the Israelites begging God not to speak to them at the foot of the mountain when they heard his voice. Who was that God of the old testament?
Deuteronomy 4:
10 Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children." 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding but here is a small clarification.
I did not mean to insinuate that people "know" God..even with todays telecommunication.
Most of todays Christians do not know Jesus Christ the way Jesus wants them to know him. They certainly do not understand the Father since they baspheme him with their hateful doctrines.
You yourself pointed that the majority of societies recognize some type of supreme being. Hence they know Christianity as "other" . The muslims, taoist, hindu and buddist and many others know of christianity. Some have been aprroached and rejected and others have not even learned anything except that fact.
Like I tried to state, the knowledge of the Jesus or God is not relevant to those in the past present or future or those few who have been so isolated they never 'heard or saw' anything except their own small world.
Also Dante the point about 'God having planned the whole thing'
the natural man is indignant and resentful & feels cheated & manipulated
the spiritual just melt into it and they are relaxed & totally comforted by the fact.
beloved
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Hi Dante,
I am merely asking if God imputes Perfect love to a human, who happen to never have heard of Jesus. And in doing so, are they True Christians also??
Simply put to be considered a 'Christian,' is to know Christ and believe what He taught.
Christian
CHRISTIAN, n.
1. A believer in the religion of Christ.
2. A professor of his belief in the religion of Christ.
3. A real disciple of Christ; one who believes in the truth of the Christian religion, and studies to follow the example, and obey the precepts, of Christ; a believer in Christ who is characterized by real piety.
(Webster's on E-Sword)
Christ is the only way which anyone can receive salvation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3120.0.html ----
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
But in Acts 4:12 The words Must be saved are used. Why do all the other verses use shall be saved but in Acts 4:12 the bible reads Must be saved?
Thanks Michael
Dear Michael:
The word "must" (Greek means 'necessary, behooves, binding') shows that salvation can not come by or through any other ways or means, than the NAME of Jesus Christ, ONLY.
Hence, the emphasis upon that Name. Jews, for example, cannot be saved in the Name of "God" aside from the Name of Jesus as John Hagee teaches. They MUST acknowledge the "Name" of Jesus Christ.
God be with you,
Ray
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A Christian would be those we considered the 'Called.' Those who have been called to Christ, so to speak. They are mostly made up of the church world (though you can know of Christ without going to church), they come to know of Christ, but it is a physical knowledge only.
Now the 'Chosen' are those from the called, that God has chosen to work with to a much greater degree. The Chosen have their eyes opened to spiritual understanding. These are those being judged now, who are being made into the image of Christ now. The Chosen are those who will remain faithful to the end and be in the first/former resurrection. They will reign and rule with Christ, they will be the Lake of fire along with Christ.
The Lake of Fire is a GOOD THING, and in my opinion should not be feared or looked at in a negative light.
Indeed it is a good thing, it is the means by which the vast majority of humanity will learn who Christ is and learn how to obey Him and evenually recieve salvation.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html ---------------------------
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE
I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.
Ponder this:
Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).
We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).
We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).
God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!
God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
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Hope this helps :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Dante and everyone,
All of the responders made great points and I'd like to add a bit to the discussion.
What are the chances that when Jesus states that the only way to the Father is through me. He means that the only way to God is through what Jesus Christ represents.
I want to caution you because like others said, no one is good.
Jesus said through me and I do not believe that there it is possible to reach God and have the necessary righteousness without going through Christ.
We can be very good compared to others but scripture says righteousness is imputed through faith and the just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one."
Rom 4:4 Now to the worker, the wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as a debt."
Rom 4:5 Yet to him who is not working, yet is believing on Him Who is justifying the irreverent, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."
Rom 6:23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
John the Baptist was the most righteous human being alive other than Jesus but he was still less than those in the kingdom of heaven so he too needed to go through Christ to be saved.
But, I most humbly was wondering if anyone had an opinion by using the word of God that there MAY be people who are Christians who have no knowledge of Christ
I suppose the main question you are asking is: is it possible for someone who has never heard and never will hear of Jesus while still alive on Earth to be a called and chosen elect?
Does God call and choose people who don't have or never will hear about Jesus on Earth?
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you get the spirit by works of law or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 So foolish are you? Undertaking in spirit, are you now being completed in flesh?
Hmm I do not know but it seems like hearing of faith is important.
(Off topic - the way spirit is used here seems to support Ray's teaching against the trinity.)
We may be able to put it in a way such as this. Some may need JUST A TOE TOUCHING, while others may need a long duration in the Lake of God's Love
I really do agree with you on this though. Quite contrary to some mainstram teaching. :o
Peace,
Steve
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1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.,........No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
2:4 John said, "He who says 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." in 2:9 John says, "He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the light."
(And what are the commandments? To Love God and our brethren (All People). Because in Loving our brethren , we have shown Love to our God. It MAY not even be necessary to know who God is, since in the below Judgment passages, it SEEMS as though, the BLESSED do not even realize that they have fulfilled the laws of God ).
The Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
( Notice at the judgment, It seems as if the “blessed” didn’t have any idea of what it was that they were doing, YET in doing so, they were fulfilling the commandments of God.)
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we LOVE the brethren."
All I am saying is that I am not ready to push “Others” into the corrective lake of fire the ones who do not know God‘s name, or who have a false idea of GOD’S NAME. If THESE PEOPLE by LIVING A LIFE OF LOVE (That the Father has given them) They are doing the works and fulfilling the commandments of God, AND they might not even be aware of the fact that they are doing the very thing that we should be doing.
Since we know that Casting out demons and performing miracles and even signs of prophesy are NOT true signs of being saved, or Blessed or lambs or Sons of God, or whatever label you wish to put on it.
For Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God. For what is the scripture saying? Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reconed to him for righteousness."
Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Because he carried out the VALUES of God. That MAY be the name under which we are to be saved. And if it is not just a matter of Calling Jesus LORD, then I MUST assume that LOVE would be the name under which to be justified under.
We know that ANYONE who is doing the acts of the Father is of the Father. Which one of us being Christians would LABEL a man who feeds the poor, clothes the homeless, acts in ALL WAYS as JESUS Does, NOT OF GOD?? Even if they have a misunderstood concept of what the NAME of God is.
It is obvious that calling Jesus Lord, Lord, does not mean that we are saved. And by understanding the concept of who and what Christ is, is not a determining factor of Being saved from the correctional Lake of Fire, since EVEN Satan himself MUST know who and what Jesus is. YET,…does Satan carry out the acts of the Father? No,..Satan acts as an adversary to the Father. Does knowing a name mean so much to God??
Or is the HEART of TRUE CHRISTIANITY the doing the LOVE that the Father has ordained to the human individual. I think that we must be cautious not to call something (Or in this case, someone) who is of God , …”NOT of God”. Don’t you think?
Love is from God, this is clear. This agapao (ag-ap-ah'-o) or Dutiful LOVE is from God. And the Word of God states that ANYONE, who has this dutiful Love as in 1John 4:7, is from God. YET, it does not state ANY other stipulation as to “Being of God”.
So to make a quick summery, There WILL be people who profess to know Jesus Christ.
And on that day of Judgment SOME of those people who professed Christ as Lord will be denied, by Christ himself.
Is it NOT POSSIBLE, that there will be those who have NEVER called Christ LORD, YET,..in carrying out the WILL of the Father, are in the Father and are of the Blessed ONES?
Is it not possible that since some professing Christians will get blindsided by the FACT that they were never TRULY Christians at all. That there are people who NEVER professed to BE Christians, YET acted on the Father’s Wishes and Were IN FACT TRUE CHRISTIANS?
Please don't get me wrong. I do NOT MEAN that it is a WORKS Program, But that we wish in our HEARTS, and that we agree with the Law of God and that we DESIRE TO DO GOOD (To LOVE),...and that is our Prerequisite for Salvation. And NOT the exact knowledge of EVERY facet of the Living God. We MAY not even have to know his name, but to know HIS ESSENCE, is what is of EXTREME VALUE! I cannot even explain all I feel on this subject, But I FEEL that I MAY be correct. I feel it in my Heart.
I put it to you to think on. And that is all I expect.
Thank you. God’s Love be with you all.
Humbly, in God's service.
(The wise man looks to the ground as he walks).
Dante
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I will try to make this short.
But, by now, you know me. I am very long winded!
LOL!
If the very essence of God is Love, which I believe him to be.’
Then I also must believe that the very essence of Satan is FEAR.
Perfect Love casts out all Fear.
You may say that Satan is a lot of things. Like Satan is deception, and this would be true.
But, doesn’t deception only have a purpose and is not purposeful to ITSELF?
If Satan can confuse us into believing that God will throw most of the world’s population into a PAGAN HELL, then doesn’t that ONLY CREATE FEAR??
Isn’t Fear the one thing that corrupts our PEACE, Joy and LOVE?
Well, I surprise myself, that was short.
Hehehe. :D
Dante
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Please don't get me wrong. I do NOT MEAN that it is a WORKS Program, But that we wish in our HEARTS, and that we agree with the Law of God and that we DESIRE TO DO GOOD (To LOVE),...and that is our Prerequisite for Salvation. And NOT the exact knowledge of EVERY facet of the Living God. We MAY not even have to know his name, but to know HIS ESSENCE, is what is of EXTREME VALUE! I cannot even explain all I feel on this subject, But I FEEL that I MAY be correct. I feel it in my Heart.
Hi Dante,
Please do not take offense with my reply but I do feel it is necessary to address the point made above. My question to you is what difference does this issue make in regard to your and my salvation how the Lord might deal with others? Remember when Peter questioned what was to become of John?
Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Perhaps the Lord will deal with some in a way we are not aware of or can perceive at this time but all through scripture it is made very clear that once He draws us we are to follow Him, His Word, His commandments and definitely not our own instincts and heart.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
You stated above that "I do NOT MEAN that it is a WORKS Program" without faith in Christ everything is a works program.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
If people can rely on their own goodness driven by their own hearts then the above verses do not make any sense, or they are lies.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
We are not only to believe on His name, but we must suffer for His sake. How does one do that with no knowledge of Him, how is someone separated from family and friends due to belief in Christ when they don't believe in Christ? How is one persecuted for their faith in Christ when they do not have faith in Christ?
Please take this in the spirit it is given, once we attempt to take the knowledge of Christ out of the equation I firmly believe that the result will be as Peter taking his eyes off of Jesus when he attempted to walk on water.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I am not saying that it is by works.
The exact opposite is what I am stating.
In the same way that you think the name Jesus saves,...that is to say the FAITH in Jesus saves,...
,....I am asserting that LOVE is Jesus' name.
Sorry if you misunderstood me, I am not saying that there is anything a man can do to save himself.
BUT, that the man that is imputed (BY GOD) righteousness, is being inputed LOVE.
Because God himself IS LOVE.
GOD=LOVE
JESUS=LOVE
God gives a man LOVE IE,....Jesus, the Holy Spirit etc.
YET,...it may appear to an observer that the man is a heathen, because he knows NOT OF GOD.
But on the inside he is a Christian, by virtue of GOD.
This may be WHY he has such LOVE in him.
Like say Ghandi (Or however you spell his name). He seemed FULL OF LOVE. How do we know he was not of God??
He surly LOVED his fellow man. If this LOVE was not of him and not of Satan, since a house divided by itself cannot stand, then it COULD be FROM GOD.
How much technical knowledge of God does ONE NEED to be a Christian??
Maybe it is JUST THE LOVE that we need, since God himself said that ANYONE WHO LOVES HIS BROTHER, is of GOD.
Hope this helps you understand my thoughts.
Peace and Love.
Dante ;D
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Joe you say: We are not only to believe on His name, but we must suffer for His sake. How does one do that with no knowledge of Him, how is someone separated from family and friends due to belief in Christ when they don't believe in Christ? How is one persecuted for their faith in Christ when they do not have faith in Christ?
Please take this in the spirit it is given, once we attempt to take the knowledge of Christ out of the equation I firmly believe that the result will be as Peter taking his eyes off of Jesus when he attempted to walk on water.
Dante says: Maybe we suffer for LOVE. Which is the exact representation of GOD and Jesus.
If we leave our families to suffer for the sake of the LOVE OF MANKIND. Is that and was that not Jesus' quest also??
To suffer for ALL MANKIND out of LOVE?
The bottom line is this.
How much working knowledge does a man have to have to be considered a Christian??
The name of Christ? All his workings? The Whole of the Word of God?
How much did the thief on the cross know?? Yet, he was saved was he not?
This is the Enigma that I ask myself.
Dante
PS. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I think you are a nice guy with a heart for God. I don't think you are going to say anything to be mean.
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Hi again Dante,
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Peace,
Joe
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Dante,
As I stated before God may be dealing with others on another level that we might not be aware of or has yet to be revealed to us, loving mankind is a noble thing indeed but loving God comes first.
Look even John the Baptist is not going to be in the first resurrection because he was not under the promise of the New Covenant, but I would be reasonably certain his experience at the White Throne Judgment will not be extremely chastising. There will be many who God has used for good who were also not of the elect, you can go through the Old Testament for examples of this, "they obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise." (Heb 11:39).
Dante, perhaps the Lord is preparing you to be a witness of Christ (in the next age) to those who died without a knowledge of Him!
His Peace to you Brother,
Joe
P.S. Thanks for the kind words.
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Hi Dante,
BUT, that the man that is imputed (BY GOD) righteousness, is being inputed LOVE.
Because God himself IS LOVE.
Maybe it is JUST THE LOVE that we need, since God himself said that ANYONE WHO LOVES HIS BROTHER, is of GOD.
There are quite a few example of people that never knew Jesus Christ and were considered righteous by God. These people were the epitome of love in what they were willing to do.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated... he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
And who is the God of the Old Testament? Jesus Christ!
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham...obeyed; and he went out...
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises...
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac...
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob...
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph...
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses...
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab...
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
All these people and even John the Baptist, that Jesus Christ said there was none greater than he, will not be in the kingdom, he too will be in the Lake of fire.
Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. Joe, I see this is what you were referring to in your last post, well I got all the Scripture for you :)
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Ok,......I got ya now. I hope,....LOL! ;D
I must have missed that in Ray's Teaching.
So,..unless I am mistaken, you are telling me that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection because it states here:
Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
BUT, I don't know that this really states that John will not be in the first resurrection. I think that it merely points out that we have the potential (Or maybe better stated WILL BE) Greater in the Kingdom of Heaven since we are under a different age and given different promises from God.
BUT, what you are stating (Unless I am really off base) is that THESE people had GREAT LOVE, Yet will NOT have our position in the Kingdom. And a lesser one of US, with LESSER LOVE, WILL have a greater position in the kingdom, since we were born in a different time period and just happen to have that opportunity.
Did I totally mess up your idea??
Let me know, cause I am really getting stoked by talking about this kind of thing.
And thanks you guys for the help.
You don't know how much I appreciate it!!
Love always.
Dante :D
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Hi Dante,
What makes the "least in the Kingdom greater than John" is the very fact he will not be in it until after the White Throne Judgment, at that time the elect will be perfect in spirit, with an incorruptable mind and an immortal body, just like Christ! And they will be the ones doing the judging!
John can be considered last in the line of the OT/Old Covenant prophets as He did not live to see the promises fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice, resurrection and the former rain at Pentecost. He very well may have been the greatest of the OT prophets (I do not know this as fact) but anyone from the Old Covenant is less than those who have been chosen (by God) to be in the first resurrection, the key word is chosen because no one can boast that they did anything to deserve it!
From LOF Part 12;
THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT
"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19).
Notice this verse in a few other translations:
"For the EAGER outlook of creation ARDENTLY awaits the revealing of the Sons of God" (The Emphasized New Testament).
"For the LONGING of the creation LOOKS EAGERLY for the time when [the glory of] the sons of God shall be revealed" (The Epistles of Paul by Conybeare).
"All creation is YEARNING, LONGING to see the manifestation of the sons of God" (The New Testament in Modern Speech).
Or the creation waits with EAGER LONGING for the revealing of the sons of God" (The Revised Standard Version).
"THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON TIPTOE to see the wonderful sight of the sons of God coming into their own" (Phillips’ Translation).
To be sure, it is GOD Who is telling us that the whole creation is groaning in earnest expectation. It is groaning for it knows not what, but GOD KNOWS! In other words, God is telling US, who are growing in spiritual truths, what it is that the whole world and indeed the whole creation is in desperate need of—the saving power of the Sons of God. We ARE the BODY OF CHRIST! What Christ does, he DOES THROUGH US!
WHY? Why are they waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God? Of what value will these Sons be to them? We can see why the Sons themselves would want to be manifested as such with God their Father and Elder Brother Jesus Christ, but why would all the wicked humanity of the entire "CREATION" be "waiting in EARNEST expectation?" What in the world is taking place here?
The church teaches that after all the Sons and Daughters of God are in their glory, the rest of the world will be tortured eternally by real fire in a terrorist hellhole of hopeless doom (never mind the fact that God says "there will be NO MORE DOOM") (Rev. 22:3, Concordant Literal New Testament).
Seriously, when all the Sons and Daughters of God are manifested IN THEIR GLORY, why would the ENTIRE CREATION be awaiting this event with almost uncontrollable bated breath, excitement, and anticipation? WHY? What is it that the churches have never told you? What is God going to do with all these glorified Sons and Daughters?
You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:
"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).
WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:
First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.
But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?
The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?
Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.
"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.
God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!
And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:
God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!" Let’s read it:
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi Dante,
I found a couple of emails that touch on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4240.0.html ----------
Look at the "destiny" of the Patriots and Fathers of the Old Testament. Did they "die and go to heaven," as it so foolishly taught by Christendom? NO. Not even Enoch and Elijah. They ALL DIED, and not one of them "received a promise that was given them by God." Let's read it:
"These [those mentioned above: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah--and those that follow later in this chapter]...These ALL DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...." (Heb. 11:13). Hebrews was written many many centuries AFTER all of these godly men died, and according to the author of Hebrews, they did not and had not YET received the promises. Imagine that: Dead for centuries and have NOT received their promises. But, they will, in the yet future, after the resurrection of the dead to judgment (Verses 39-40). The lake of fire is judgment; it is not ETERNAL TORTURE. And the Judgments of God bring godly righteousness: "When THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9). What good is it if we do not believe ALL the Scriptures.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2385.0.html -----
Dear Ricardo:
No, you aren't silly. Actually, your are correct: John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).
God be with you,
Ray
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Ok,......I got ya now. I hope,....LOL! ;D
I must have missed that in Ray's Teaching.
So,..unless I am mistaken, you are telling me that John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection because it states here:
Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
BUT, I don't know that this really states that John will not be in the first resurrection. I think that it merely points out that we have the potential (Or maybe better stated WILL BE) Greater in the Kingdom of Heaven since we are under a different age and given different promises from God.
BUT, what you are stating (Unless I am really off base) is that THESE people had GREAT LOVE, Yet will NOT have our position in the Kingdom. And a lesser one of US, with LESSER LOVE, WILL have a greater position in the kingdom, since we were born in a different time period and just happen to have that opportunity.
Did I totally mess up your idea??
Let me know, cause I am really getting stoked by talking about this kind of thing.
And thanks you guys for the help.
You don't know how much I appreciate it!!
Love always.
Dante :D
Hi Dante,
Think of it this way............
If some people were in a race and I said to you "The person running last in that race is a faster runner than you......", does that mean you are in the race? No. If you were you would be last, not the person who I said was last. If the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John, then he cannot be there, otherwise John would be least.
Be blessed
David.
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Dante
I see your point as being extremely simple. You agree that only through Christ we are saved, the question is how does Christ manifest himself?
If it is through love then many without the scriptures have experienced Christ.
God is light. God is love. God is truth. God is the word. To be saved we need to believe the truth AND be sanctified by the holy spirit. 2 Thes. 2:13
Who has God sent the holy spirit to? Without it there is no salvation. But it is not by itself, belief in and love of the truth is also required. And how will we know the truth without the word, the scripture?
I think other religions and philosophies and approaches do catch glimpses of love and the truth but they do not have the word and the spirit. Only the elect have the spirit and the word (in the form of the scriptures). Being one of the elect is what we aspire. None of us knows. Either way we know we are in God's love and secure.
Askseeknock
Charles
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Beloved,
I see you have reference to Ezekiel 44................and it makes me think how important it is for the elect to be judged by God now, conquer the carnal mind, die to our fleshly desires, suffer trials and persecutions in His name, and know that all is vanity here on earth. Jesus is the supreme example of being able to take on the flesh without sin.... Only God through Jesus Christ is able to accomplish this! It is not possible for man at all, but with God all things are possible. It is His work on the vessels of honor! Wow!Praise God!
Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
This is an interesting thought I can understand your concern but about these people but I think your premise may be oversimplified.. ?Which God?
With telecommunication and literacy I do not know how many today could not have heard the gospel (even if it was the ugly one about hell). If they heard that they proably rejected it because of thier own traditions and because God did not open their eyes. God is responsible for all.
I also think that all men even those in the past that never were exposed still have a major problem..... SELF...the one on the throne .......During ones lifetime there would be numerouse occasions for this to show itself....every baby is Self centered.
Look at these buddist right now some are resorting to brute physical albeit it 'may be' defensive but what about in their mental thoughts. Remember Jesus held us to a higher standard. Of most religions Buddism on the surface has some correct ideas but they are achieved by self. They are work based.
Jesus Christ came to earth as a sacrafice and example to show mankind that death to self is the way to life. We cannot do this on our own. Our flesh is a trap.
The elect are suppose to go through this fire wile they live now.....Ask yourself what kind of fire your are going through now....many are having difficult times...not always physical....I believe the LOF will be the perfect learning experience for each person....
Perhaps that is what the elect will do ......guide them through this experience so they ....learn righteousness. The elect will take off their linen and put on the wool and enter the physical realm when the people of the 2nd ressurection will dwell.
Like Paul who saw himself as the chief sinner....the elect will know the mercy of God because none of them were mighty renown rich etc....they were the bottom of the barrel in a way. Like Jesus they know the flesh and the struggles that need to be overcomed....
I do not look on the Lake of Fire as a bad thing but more as a rectifier....a do-over....a perfecter. It was God who decided on which team you played the first time...now he is bringing everyone back into the spiritual family after this extremely limiting flesh experience.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3002.0.html
There will be no I us or them there will only be the Father. All in All
Beloved
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Hi Everyone, sorry for the long Pause. I had a Kung Fu test on Saturday, and It took days to make sure I had everything down correctly. Plus the class itself took 4 hours of grueling, intense pain. And as I am not a young man anymore :-[, and not in the best of health, It takes me much time to do things and then recover.
So that is why I have not been to the boards that much.
But the good news is that I passed and only had one minor flaw in my performance, which by Strict Chinese standards is very, very good,. This was told to me by my immediate instructor. In fact he was even shocked that I did so well.
Yahoo for me,…LOL! Hehehe.
My test was in Xingyiquan, a very power demanding art, and I had to do Two routines to NEAR perfection.
It was great, but now I just want to soak in a tub for a week!! LOL!! Sorry to babble again! ;)
Okey Dokey.
I read the 12th part of the Lake of Fire series all over again. (Thank you by the way for that ;D).
I feel good every time I read Ray's Stuff. It is so cool. It is like a Jigsaw puzzle being put together before your very eyes.
Makes me feel Good inside!!
Ok, John the baptist is not going to be in the first resurrection.
Seems kind of like being at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and being the last one to get one of the LONG lettered and numbered license plates and then right after you step out of line with "Plates in Hand", they start handing out really, really short license plates. Since they ran out of the long ones.
Seems like John got kind of short changed.
But I am cool with that!! There are plenty of people who were born after the day of Pentecost that will NOT be CHOSEN ANYWAY. And that is up to God and that is COOL with me (As if God needs my ok!!).
Just stating this so that you know where my mind is at. NOT, to imply that God needs my Blessing. So please don’t misunderstand. Whatever God does will be True and Righteous is my BELIEF!
But, anyway, this does not really seem to drive home the fact that LOVE is not the determining factor as to what makes a Christian a Christian.
CEO, you nailed what I was trying to say, on the head!!
When you said,….I see your point as being extremely simple. You agree that only through Christ we are saved ( I Agree totally), the question is how does Christ manifest himself? (Exactly CEO!!)
If it is through love then many without the scriptures have experienced Christ.
God is light. God is love. God is truth. God is the word (Right, and this is OUR sticking point on the issue, although I understand that Jesus is the VERY WORD OF GOD). To be saved we need to believe the truth (YES, But how do we know that God does not IMPUTE the Truth to others without DIRECT knowledge of the word. Might not the Word, (that is Jesus Christ himself), be given to others by other means??) AND be sanctified by the holy spirit. 2 Thes. 2:13
Who has God sent the holy spirit to? Without it there is no salvation (I agree fully). But it is not by itself, belief in and love of the truth is also required (And this is the point that I am trying to make, that God MAY send the Holy Spirit to people without revelation of the EXACT and TOTAL Knowledge of the word being taught in all it‘s Glory). And how will we know the truth without the word, the scripture?
CEO, if Love is the Truth of the scripture, then is it not possible that MAN can speak in love to one another without saying it in terms of EXACT Christian vernacular?? Does God require we speak chapter and verse to get his message out. And what is that message? To love our brethren, for in doing so, We show LOVE to GOD. Even if said person knows it or not. This would seem to explain why people at Judgment seemed to be caught OFF guard when Christ said that when you do this to the least of my brethren, you have done it to me.
I mean, MAY we all not agree that it is not impossible for God to CALL and Choose a retarded person, who has limited capacity for the understanding of the deep things of God? This person may not have ALL things down perfectly yet understand the CORE of what Jesus and God has revealed??
And since God said this:
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.,........No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
And this:
3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we LOVE the brethren."
And this:
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
So if EVERYONE who LOVES his fellow man has God abiding in him. Then this and this alone MUST be a litmus test for Salvation! Am I off base on the word of God? For if we love our fellow man, God says we LOVE HIM.
So to put it as simply as possible and if I am not incorrect in my Logic.
If we love the brethren we are showing love to God. If we show love to the brethren, then God abides in us, and HIS love is perfected in us. THUS we are fulfilling God’s commandments to 1) Love God 2) Love our Brethren. The Two commandments that Jesus Gave us. And in doing so, we have fulfilled the LAW. NOT BY OUR OWN POWER, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
As CEO and many of you have pointed out, Faith comes by hearing the word of God. And ONLY by Faith is ONE (A person) TRULY Saved. I totally Agree with this.
But, as I have mentioned the retarded person. How can he understand the DEEP things of God??
And YET may he not also partake of God’s Love and Grace.
If the retarded person, with MUCH limited knowledge, Can be saved and among the ELECT. Is it not possible that someone with no access to the word of God ,out of circumstance, not know ENOUGH about God’s character and nature to NATURALLY fulfill the requirements of God’s. And that this was God's plan for this person?
In other words, God changes and saves not by the LETTER OF THE WORD, BUT BY THE HEART OF IT.
And that Heart Being Love,...that is ITSELF JESUS CHRIST.
Let me make this very, very clear. Any perfect love does not come from the person themselves. But from God himself. Without God choosing a person, they would have no choice but to be what they are. A vial sin filled human being. But if God decides to choose them, in his own way, who are we to question God’s methods?
My question boils down to this ! How much knowledge of God is enough to have faith?
If I could get an answer (Biblically of course) to this question, I think that I would have a much better idea of who God is choosing in the “Here and Now”.
Peace be with you all, and God bless.
Dante
PS. Sorry this was AGAIN long winded.
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Hi Dante,
You asked; "How much knowledge of God is enough to have faith?"
Peter describes the spiritual progression of a believer who is called and chosen to be of the elect, to be prepared for that great commission of bringing the rest of humanity to Him. He has planned from the very beginning who those chosen would be. (Eph 1:4)
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.26
G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
As you can see there appears to be an order to how we progress and to what each step eventually leads to, look at it as being similar to what you have experienced in Kung Fu. You must first have the desire (faith) to learn the art before you can begin the journey of becoming proficient in it. You must approach the instructions by your teacher/master with a reverence and belief that what you are being led through is essential to learning this complex discipline. You have to follow through not just with lip service but with action (virtue). Do you see where I am going here? You cannot become a Kung Fu Master simply by "loving" the beauty of this martial art you must submit and be led step by step through the rigors of study, diet, exercise, practice, competitions, progressing from one level to the next you cannot skip through any parts and proceed to Master status by simply declaring your love for it. A true love of Kung Fu would be shown by the fruits of your progression as you proceed from learning stances, footwork, kicks, hand techniques, etc. through bare hand training, weapons training before you are ready to even start sparring training.
Think of God selecting who will be masters of His plan of salvation for humanity and what they must learn and what atrributes they must acquire.
So getting back to your question it is faith which begets knowledge not the other way around and faith is something we of ourselves are incapable of having unless He chooses to give it from above.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
His Peace to you Brother,
Joe
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Hi Dante,
I think I am beginning to see where you are coming from. Love is most certainly an all encompassing factor that we all must learn. I agree with you that there are people in this world who do show great acts of love and there is no doubt those who are very loving people as a way of life. But is love without the knowledge of who and what Christ is enough by itself to be in the first resurrection?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
v. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
v. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
v. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
v. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
v. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
Jesus Christ is the means by which we recieve this bread of life that substains us. How do we 'eat' Christ? He is our bread spiritually, when we learn the knowledge of the Truth that He revealed, we are partaking of His body.
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
v. 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
v. 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
v. 48 I am the bread of life.
v. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
v. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
v. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
I those loving people that come up in the Lake of fire will not have too much to worry about - few stripes.
But the first resurrection is for those few that Christ is training and preparing to rule and reign with Him. And all those really great and loving people all through history, the Elect will teach them the Truth. Because the Elect will be the bride of Christ, they have been prepared to reign with Christ.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
When the Elect are ruling the world with Christ, all people will come to the knowledge of the Truth.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
v. 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And what is the Truth?
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?"
Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
I hope you can follow these Scriptures that I have presented, so many of them speak for themself and there was no need to comment :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat and Joe (And everyone else for replying). And Kat I am glad that you are starting to see where I am coming from, because my fingers are starting to hurt,....LOL!
Just kidding, I Love talking about the Word of God.
But think about it Kat. Unless people are acting out of there own Carnal Minds in these seemingly Selfless acts, who's power are they acting under??
Granted that SOME people do seemingly wonderful acts, for Glory of themselves, YET are we really ready to believe that Ghandi or Mother Teresa or others of their likeness that have done marvelous things for Mankind, and sacrificed MUCH for Mankind's benefit are ALWAYS and in EVERY case acting of their own accord, for their own selfish ambitions??
If, they are not doing it of themselves then it cannot be OF SATAN. (Does Satan wish to feed the poor or clothe the homeless out of PURE LOVE?)
If not themselves and not Satan's then it must be of God.
Since a good tree does NOT produce bad fruit and a bad tree does not produce Good fruit.
No doubt that SOME people SEEM to be Good, but in the darkness they are Evil.
But what is the ratio??
Jesus himself said that if you do not believe for no other reason that I am who I say I am, Then believe me because I do the WORKS of HIM WHO SENT ME.
When you quoted those verses that speak of partaking of Jesus' body and blood, you and I know it is not a literal thing. And we know it is a sign of something that has happened inside ourselves.
But if we partake of the manna, of the body of Christ, what is the BODY of CHRIST?
It is surly not saying his name and calling him LORD. That may be part of it, but in IT'S most potent and VITAL MEANING, may it not be partaking of his actions and WHAT HE STOOD FOR?? Or the DEEP DESIRE TO WANT TO DO IT, may be the more appropriate thing to say.
Lets try this and see if it fits! (UL will stand for Unconditional Love after the first planting of the phrase,...ok?. FL will stand for self glorifying love (False Love))
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes (False Love, the kind that brings man Glory), but for the food (The PURE LOVE of God) which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you (The unconditional Love), because God the Father has set His seal (UL) on Him."
v. 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
v. 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him (the worker of UL, who is in FACT LOVE IN HIS ESSENCE) whom He sent."
John 6:33 For the bread (UL) of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life (UL) to the world."
John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son (Since not many saw him, I think what he is saying sees the UL) and believes (Accepts UL as a way of life) in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him (To be a partaker of God's way,...UL); and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me (Christ's works of UL) has everlasting life.
v. 48 I am the bread (The Essence of life or the exact essence of love toward mankind) of life.
v. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
v. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it (Partake of the ideology of UL) and not die.
v. 51 I am the living bread (Jesus is the Bread, the light, the life, the reflection of the Father, the exact essence of God, which is LOVE) which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread (Partakes of his ways), he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh (The exact essence of God, which is Love), which I shall give for the life of the world."
Don't get me wrong, God ALL Encompassing, Justice, Mercy, Kindness, Righteousness, but above ALL ELSE, he is LOVE. That is why he gave the commandments of 1) Love God 2) Love your Brothers and Sisters.
He even said that we can have all other things, but IF WE ARE NOT LOVE, WE ARE NOTHING!!
And we know that if we have a pure love for our fellow man, then it is a sure sign that we Love God.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.,........No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
And this:
3:14, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we LOVE the brethren."
And this:
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Just one more thing. If on judgment day, a man who did not know of the name of God stands before God and is IN judgment. And this man was such a Loving and kind man devoting his life to LOVE (Assuming that it was not for THAT man's OWN GLORY). What would he have to go to the Lake of Fire for??
The way I see it, it seems like there WILL be those who don't have an idea of who God is (In name only), but who knew him through an INNER DESIRE TO CARRY OUT THE WORKS OF JESUS' LOVE IN HIS HEART (Via the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD), and the man might not have even known about it. He just knew he HAD TO LOVE. He wanted to LOVE. It became PART of the man.
And this kind of man might just be one of those people who asked God,...Hey God, when did we feed you, when did we visit you in Prison??"
And there WILL be those who will say on the day of Judgment: Lord, Lord we did this and that, and God will say, away from me you WORKERS OF INIQUITY, I NEVER KNEW YOU!!"
How could God say he never knew them?? They called him Lord and did wonderful works in HIS NAME and were professing Christians,....RIGHT??, YET, those works were really NOT WONDERFUL, because the were not out of GOD'S Unconditional Love!
Peace and Love my friends. :)
God Bless.
Dante
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Hi Dante,
To be saved we need to believe the truth (YES, But how do we know that God does not IMPUTE the Truth to others without DIRECT knowledge of the word. Might not the Word, (that is Jesus Christ himself), be given to others by other means??)
We are to be baptized into His death, how can you be baptised into His death if you have never heard of Him. It is a spiritual thing, but you have to know about Jesus Christ and how He was crucified. You have to know Him to be buried with Him.
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
You are saying that someone could have the Holy Spirit without knowing it, and then show Gods love by that Spirit in them. What would be the point in God not revealing His Son to someone that would rule and reign with Him? It's not like God would be unable to find a way to bring the knowledge of Jesus Christ to someone. Look at all the Bibles that we have in the world.
Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
What I have been trying to show is that so many Scripture indicate that you must know the person Jesus Christ, and that is much more than saying His name and calling Him LORD. Of course to 'know' Him spiritually only comes form the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I just think what I am seeing in the Scriptures is to come to know Him spiritually you have to study what the Man had to say.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Joh 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify (to bear witness) of Me (Jesus Christ).
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks for starting this thread, Dante. It was a really good discussion.
Myself, I have a hard time fathoming John the Baptist not being in the first resurrection. After all, he knew Christ personally and served God better than I could possibly hope to....but that's my own way of thinking.
Anyway, my own thought on all of this, is that all men have been given a certain knowledge of God, He has revealed himself by creation for example:
Romans 1
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
So, at the Great White thrown judgment, I believe persons who are not in Christ are going to be judged on the knowledge that was revealed to them and what they did with it. For some, (such as the old testament saints) I believe it will be more of a joyful revelation they will eagerly except, for others, it is going to be a painful process full of remorse and regret (their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth).
Another point, while Love is the Hallmark of the Christian (He that loveth not, knoweth not God), it is not the quality that saves us (For by grace ye have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves - it is the gift of God (His choice), it is a fruit of walking in the spirit.
I have heard many people talk about love in a very loose fashion, as though it didn't matter what we believe, as long as we were loving to others. This type of love is generally "phileo" love, and most humans possess this type of love in varying degrees. It can lead to a great deal of good works, but it doesn't mean that a person knows Christ. We shouldn't be fooled by a great deal of talk and activity.
Human "phileo" love and agape love are different. Agape love is a fruit of the Spirit, and we can't even possibly walk in that unless we have the Spirit of God in us, that we receive by faith. This type of love enables us to love our enemies and our neighbor as ourself.
Scripture is clear that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, and many of you have cited a great deal of Scripture to already prove that point so I don't need to belabor that. One day every knee will bow and very tongue confess, then God will be all in all.
Peace to you all,
Joe
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The last thing I did before leaving the church was to teach at the women's bible study. I was invited as a guest speaker. It had only been a few months before that God showed me the "Beast". I learned very quickly that my righteousness was as filthy rags to God. I cut strips from cloth and rubbed them in dirt and pulled them out of a clay jar and started to tell the women of my goodness a filthy strip at a time. I shared how God brought me to repentance and how he showed me there was no good thing in me. Christ in me, the hope of Glory. (Colossians 1:27)
Only God is good.
Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Isaiah 64
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Romans 3
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Zechariah 3
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."
5 Then I said, "Put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by.
6 The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: 7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.
8 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.
10 " 'In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the LORD Almighty."
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Amen MG!
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.
Peace,
Joe
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Luke 23:41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
The thief on the cross had no bible study, no schooling, he probably didn't know God's word that well, if at all. He was never baptized, maybe not circumcised, he was no theologian, nor did he invite Jesus Christ into his heart for forgiveness, in fact he led a life of a thief and a criminal. Did this man understand ALL of God's plan for the world? How much information did he have, (DID HE NEED) to be accepted? Yet with little information and one simple request, he was told by Jesus Christ himself, that he would experience Paradise.
Dante,
I believe the implication here is that he did put His faith in Christ. He undertstood who Jesus was, referencing His Kingdom, His heart was in a repentant attitude, "we are suffering justly for our deeds", and his saying the words "remember me", implied that He knew Jesus had the power to save him. Indeed, I believe we can say he was the first convert of the new covenant.
This reminded me of a book I read years ago about a woman named Mimosa, who lived in a small village in India. A missionary came to her village and spoke maybe 10 minutes with her about a God of forgiveness who loved her. With those few words, she gladly accepted Christ. She was the only convert in her pagan village, and for the next 20 years or so she faced persecution from others in her village, but was taught amazing biblical principals directly from God's spirit. She had no bible, no other person to teach her. When western culture finally caught up with her village and Christianity was brought to her village in a more formal way, she was able to share her story. All those years, she never wavered - all based upon a ten minute encounter with a missionary. Christ is the Living Word of God, and he is able to teach and sanctify regardless of the circumstances.
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I totally agree with you Little Joe.
And it is exactly as you say, he knew certain LITTLE things about Jesus.
But my question is, How much is enough?
Does anyone that has scripture that NAILS DOWN, the HOW MUCH question.
Because if God states that ANYONE who does Good to other humans, is a sign that they are OF GOD. And in doing so, shows that that person Truly LOVES GOD.
It seems as though, God is stating that that is enough! No other thing be needed to PROVE one's inheritance to the Kingdom of Heaven. Possible NOT even the knowledge of where the power to DO the Good works of God even came from.
I know that Faith comes by hearing, but the Word of God can be said in SO MANY WAYS. Are we really convinced that it HAS to be by chapter and Verse?? And if not, then can a kind word or two be enough??
And if that is so, how much understanding of the WORD of God does ONE need.
Is knowing that Jesus lived enough?
What are the SPECIFICATIONS?
Ya know what I mean?
Thanks Little Joe.
Dante ;D
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Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Ok,...so this may SEEM to be a sticking point, to what I was trying to say.
BUT, there will be those who confess Jesus with their mouths and yet never believed in their hearts.
Those could be the people who said to him: "Lord, Lord" did not we do wonderful works,...etc. And Jesus said, (and notice what he said) get away from me you workers of iniquity.
BUT, could there not be those who never confessed Jesus with their mouths yet believed in what and WHO Jesus Really was, yet never had the understanding of ALL the intricate details of Christs life? And these being the people who stand in Judgment before God, and seem to be caught off guard with the fact that they served God, by serving the brethren? And of course, that ability came from God himself.
The Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
( Notice at the judgment, It seems as if the “blessed” didn’t have any idea of what it was that they were doing, YET in doing so, they were fulfilling the commandments of God.)
(And Also notice: If these who were speaking were "Devout Christians", wouldn't they know these verses and understand that when they feed the hungry and gave drink to the thirsty, that THEY were doing it to Jesus??) There must be at least SOME people in this crowd that don't have a very good working knowledge of the Word of God!! Don't you think??
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Again, How much knowledge about God is enough?
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Hi Dante,
We don't seem to be getting anywhere in this discussion. At this point maybe you should send Ray your question, so maybe he can clarify this matter for you. L.RaySmith@comcast.net
Here is a couple of emails concerning the thief.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html ------
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context. Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He? No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise." But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant. Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
v
v
I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,549.0.html -------
Dear Suz:
You are confused because you are not accepting the teachings of ALL of the Scriptures. Christ's spirit did not go with Him to the tomb, and NEITHER did His soul (as you suggest I teach?)
Christ's spirit returned to God, but JESUS DIED and JESUS was placed in a tomb, and JESUS WAS DEAD.
Scripture teaches that His "soul" went to "the unseen" (Gk: 'hades'). Hades is not the "tomb" anymore than sheol in the Old Testament was a "tomb." Read my series on "HELL."
The thief was not converted, nor born again, nor regenerated; he merely believed that Jesus was the Christ. Jesus didn't promise him a part in His kingdom, yet that is what the thief requested. Jesus did not grant him his request. We must always read ALL THE WORDS IN A SCRIPTURE.
I will write on this one day and explain it, but it will take ten pages.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hello Dante
You have posted many thoughts and I simply want to add a few more for you to perhaps ponder. I recall Rays very enlightening teaching on Repentance and Ray’s teaching on the return of Christ when Christ will say “Depart from me. I know you not.”
What follows is just what I am seeing at this time and it might settle your desire to know how much knowledge is enough.
Paul writes in Romans 9 : 2 I have BITTER GRIEF and INCESSANT ANGUISH in my heart.
Paul explains in vs 3 ..For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off and banished from Christ for the sake of my brethren INSTEAD of THEM. Now this was PAUL speaking. I think we can agree that Paul knew very much yet even he says he was still yearning to know only Christ and Christ crucified.
The Brethren of Paul’s flesh are not the Gentiles but the offspring to whom the promise applies. Paul’s bitter grief and incessant anguish is for the line of Isaac who have enjoyed the blessing and privileges vs 4. For THEY are Israelites, and to them belong God’s adoption and the glorious Presence. With THEM were the special covenants made, to THEM worship was revealed and promises announced. To THEM belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from THEM is the Christ, Who is exalted and supreme over all…..
It is for THEM that Paul is in bitter grief and anguish of heart. For THEM upon whom the plagues are to come in the wrath of God.
Paul says Rom 9 : 6 It is not everybody who are made God’s children, but it is the offspring to whom the promise applies that shall be counted descendants.
We are the descendants or the ones who know more than the Gentiles and Pagans know about Christ yet we are the ones who have the beam in our eyes! Ref to Rays teaching on Repentance for a real eye opener!
It is THEM who Paul is speaking who vs 7 will be called and counted through the line of Isaac.
Paul says they will be CALLED AND COUNTED. Paul does not say they will be chosen. The called and counted are not the few and chosen. It is to the MANY that Jesus says "Depart from Me, I know you not. " Refer to Rays teaching on this very topic. It is astounding!
Paul explains that God will have Mercy on whom He will have Mercy and Compassion on whom He will have compassion. This knowledge did not erase the BITTER GRIEF and INCESSANT ANGUISH in Paul’s heart.
Paul explained Rom 9 : 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God’s part? Certainly NOT. ….
Moses interceded with God for His people. We know Christ does the same. Is it not the remnant that will be identified as having learnt from the OT for our admonition and following Christ for our grievous bitter cries to God for His People ?
Is this bitter grief and incessant anguish the identifying mark of the remnant that included Paul?
Rom 11 : 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant…..
Hos 6 : 1 Come and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn so that He may heal us; He has stricken so that He may bind us up.
I believe that before we can know anything we have to be humbled. Learning that we are the Beast is very humbling.
Ray's teachings do reveal that we are the Beast. There is much gravity and needful spiritual maturity and sobriety to digest Rays writings that reflect upon God's call to His People to come out of Her Mystery Babylon!
To come out is to return to the Lord for His Mercy and Compassion in full acceptance of our inability to know Him outside of His Sovereign Will.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)