bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: sasscell on July 18, 2007, 11:01:02 PM
-
I gang, I'm Tracy. I have been a member on and off for a couple of years, haven't posted in about a year or so, SO here goes. I have been reading the "Contradictions in the Bible" thread. It's corrupted, it's not, it has contradictions, it doesn't, etc. The argument really seems to be over what God intends the scriptures to be. A mere guidebook? A GPS? Somewhere in between...an atlas maybe!!! Anyway, the question that keeps comming up, and HAS for years for me, is WHAT DID PEOPLE DO BEFORE THE SCRIPTURES BECAME COMMONLY AVAILABLE? I have 5 bibles in my home, many of you have many, many more. This is a rather NEW development in Christianity. MOST people, MOST CHRISTIANS through the ages have never even SEEN one. Surely there have been Christians in ALL GENERATIONS. What did they do, how did they learn? Obviously, they maybe heard some, were taught of the Spirit. Does that change the way I look at my bible?? No, I have more I am accountable for more (yikes) Thoughts???
-
Hi Tracy, I know exactly what you are saying, how did that know who had no Scriptures to read?
I will post a Scripture and then comment on it okay. :)
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This verse has always been golden to me for I could see God clearly. But it wasn't everything. Oh I have a few Bibles myself, I even have a Hebrew/Greek bible with a word for word rendering and numbered to Strongs Concorance which have a copy of too. I studied these long and hard, but I never felt closer to God than when I was out side, walking in all that He made.
Yet something was missing. I have always felt close to God and felt him close to me; however, when he bagan to open my eyes and ears to his Spirit, I began to see things in a very different light and to quote a brother, through the wonderment of child like enthusiasm.
Now here is the interesting part and one that is often over looked. It was the spirit that allowed me to see the truth of Scripture, not the Scripture that allowed me to see the truth of the Spirit. Many may gasp in shock at that statement, but truthfully, how could it be any other way. So in closing, I firmly believe that one does not need to have ready access to a Bible for God to impart His Spirit of Truth.
I hope this helps a little :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Hi Tracy!!
Good point. We are lost w/o all our tools and study guides :D
So many people just heard a bit or so of the gospel and that is all they had. Maybe years later someone came thru the village again w/ some more news or details. Letters were floating around but you had to be at the right place at right time. So, I think the Spirit helped these folks- whose hearts wanted to know more.
Really, the average person, lets say who went to hear Paul preach, just went back home and lived their life. We hear about the few in the bible or the early church fathers, but the vast majority, just went home! I know that back then "christians" were known for their hospitality for the down and out. Many died for their faith. Most surely, most did not have anything written out to study. I am talking about the gentiles out in the "world", not the jews who did have the written OT (at least the well to do).
Yes, to whom much is given, much is required.
-
Truly stated, Darren.
For, we are not in need that man teach us (truth), but rather, the comforter and "Holy Spirit" of God.
A friend in Christ - jER
-
Dear Tracy and Darren,
I think you raise some good points. I think the gospel is simple enought that we can be true followers of Christ even if we don't have a Bible. It is our love for God and each other that make us true children of God. I went off the deep end a little bit with this whole thing because I have seen the damage that can be done when we begin to undermine trust in the Bible. For most people today the Bible is the guide they use to verify whether a particular teaching is compatible or in harmony with the teachings of Jesus. This is why all of us spend time studyng it.
In my experience when someone wants to bring a teaching that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus they know that they have to weaken your trust in the reliability of the Bible. If they can convince you that the Bible is unreliable or corrupted it is easier for them to convince you of the truth of whatever doctrine they are preaching. I do not want to offend anyone by naming specific groups so I will just say that most groups outside of Christendom consider the Bible to be unreliable and corrupted. So when some guru or self proclaimed prophet tells you that Jesus did not really rise from the dead you have nothing to compare their teachings with if you think the Bible is corrupted and not worth using. Many, if not most of these groups teach that Jesus is still dead and in the grave. If you assert that the Bible does teach that Jesus was resurrected they will counter by saying that the Bible is corrupted so we should not use it to contradict their teachings. This is very serious. Millions have been deceived by these type of claims. I unfortunately have to hear this type of false teaching virtually everyday. So I am probably more sensitive to it then I should be. There is a man that lives in a nearby city where I live that was once a christian. He was convinced by these type of false teachers that the Bible is unreliable and corrupted. He eventually became convinced that God did not exist and Jesus never really existed. He now operates a ministry that is dedicated to destroying belief in God and faith in Jesus. He is totally serious about all of this. He travels the country debating christians and trying to convince them to renounce their belief in God. I have several people who are close to me that have fallen for this type of thinking. So when someone tells you that the Bible is corrupted you have to dig a little deeper to find out why they want you to believe this. Sometimes they mean no harm but most of the time they have an agenda that goes beyond their lack of respect for the Bible.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
Hi Tracy, Welcum sister,
um! all I hav 2 say is "Amen 2 d@ Darren, Amen", GOD will draw U in HIS time HES appointted 2 U or whomeva, 'with or without' da Bible, looking 4ward 2 hearing more frm U sister, um! jus 2 add :) Im frm New Zealand, married with 3 children to my wife Tristan, got married January dis year But hav been 2gether 16yrz, ( have 4 to another, but r all growen up & living der lives ), GODBLESS! U & I knw HE is with U alwayZ!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
-
Hi Sasscell,
It's good to have you back with us :)
This is something I have thought about, it does make you wonder.
I think that there are ways that all generations have that they study and learn. The disciples knew the OT scriptures, they learned it somehow. Down through the centuries there have always been schools, so people did learn. Now maybe there were less learned people than now, but I think there was always schools, so some would get educated. But I think even the lower classes had ways they learned things, so that most could be educated to some degree.
So I believe that God used what means, that He caused to be available in each generation, to bring His truth to His elect. Now I'm not saying that God is limited to using just the physical means, but I think He brought about the methods of studying and learnig and used them. We know that the apostles taught the believers the truth, during that first generation after Christ. I can see how God raised up educated men/women to teach all down through the centuries.
I also think that as God has increased the means by which we are able to share this truth tremendously, in a short period of time. I really think we are being given great understanding now too and maybe more than other generations. At least it seems like that to me.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Thanks to all whom a have responded thus far: Pera, Kat, Gmik, Yellowstone, Jer and Dean!! All posts have merit and wisdom. I have SO much to write, but it's 11:30 and I'm tired so I'll keep it simple: AM I CRAZY or am I right in saying that I feel burdended by the amount of scripture thrown around these days?? Let me clarify. EVERYONE has a doctrine to peddle, ALL with scripture (I assume wrong) to back it. Sometimes I just feel like I am overwhelmed. Perhaps if I only knew "love your neighbor as thyself", I could just concentrate on that and do it. EVERYONE has scripture to back their false doctrines, whether it's contradictions proving the bible can't be trusted or eternal torment, make no mistake, it's ALL SCRIPTURE!! Sometimes I feel that it is a strategy of Satan to overwhelm us with scriptures, lulling us into complacincy, feeling overwhelmed, obeying none. Thoughts??
-
You know what ?? I am so sorry something I said in my last post..."burdended by scripture" is totally wrong. I should have said something like I know the scriptures and I can't live up to them... maybe that is the problem, I don't know where to begin, maybe I wish I wasn't accountable for so much... Tracy
-
I can understand being overwhelmed with scripture. There were actually times when reading the bible made things feel very dark. Those were also the times when God was working things out of me and it was creating a lot of anxiety.
I finally came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust myself. I was no match for the deceiver. Deceived people don't know they are deceived. I realized if I was deceived I wouldn't even know it. I had to put my trust in God. I prayed that he would protect me from deception and teach me truth. I know I am still deceived in some areas, but I have no idea what the deception is. I won't know until I learn more truth.
I struggle hard trying to learn. I have a complicated way of processing information. I see others understand things so quickly and it takes me a lot longer. I cry a lot when I read scripture. I know there is something there and I just can't see it. It can be very frustrating at times and quite a strain. All I can do is pray that God gives me understanding and wait on him.
-
Hi Dean
Thanks for a well thought out and worded response. I could not agree more. Yet, I will offer this in support of what you said. During my years of "searching" for truth, I think I must have found every contradiction / fallacy ever conceived. I realized that the truth was not going to be found there (not because it wasn't, just that I couldn't) I then walked away from all my Bibles and study aids.
It was here that I learned a most fundamental truth; for when Christ said: "Look and you shall find" and "Ask and you shall recieve" he wasn't talking about physical eyes and ears, but rather our spiritual. It wasn't after I stopped trying to "find" the truth of God myself, that he slowly began revealing himself to me. The crazy thing was that I knew he had been there all along.
Another profound thing happened, the contradictions vanished, the words or rather their message stood out clearly, and the mixed up jigsaw puzzle of truth that I could not fatham, began falling neatly into place.
The Spirit and the Word must be in harmony, because they are one and the same.
Thanks for your post,
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Truly stated, Darren.
For, we are not in need that man teach us (truth), but rather, the comforter and "Holy Spirit" of God.
A friend in Christ - jER
Thanks jER :)
A fellow friend in Christ,
Darren
-
Oh Mg, you are so sweet and transparent. I feel the same way somtimes, I see "something" in His Word, but it never pans out and I feel frustrated. Maybe those who understand things easily aren't being entirely truthful?? I want truth in my heart. Anyway, I feel you, seems like these days I fight for every morsel of truth, used to come so easy, but not now. Indeed, perilous days ...
-
Dear Darren,
Thank you for your valuable insights. I totally agree with everything you said.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
Hi,
Wow, i'm just not understanding the questions, How could there be "christians" before Christ?....Even the greatist of profits died "and did NOT receive the promise".
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that THEY without US should not be made perfect. Hbr 11:39-40
Everything ever done was for US...so that we could SEE
1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Gods purpose and plan has not changed, there is a plan to call and choose those that will be Christs, and those chosen will make ALL perfect. How...through judgement. "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?" [1Cor 6:2]
We must have faith in the scriptures.
Chris R
I gang, I'm Tracy. I have been a member on and off for a couple of years, haven't posted in about a year or so, SO here goes. I have been reading the "Contradictions in the Bible" thread. It's corrupted, it's not, it has contradictions, it doesn't, etc. The argument really seems to be over what God intends the scriptures to be. A mere guidebook? A GPS? Somewhere in between...an atlas maybe!!! Anyway, the question that keeps comming up, and HAS for years for me, is WHAT DID PEOPLE DO BEFORE THE SCRIPTURES BECAME COMMONLY AVAILABLE? I have 5 bibles in my home, many of you have many, many more. This is a rather NEW development in Christianity. MOST people, MOST CHRISTIANS through the ages have never even SEEN one. Surely there have been Christians in ALL GENERATIONS. What did they do, how did they learn? Obviously, they maybe heard some, were taught of the Spirit. Does that change the way I look at my bible?? No, I have more I am accountable for more (yikes) Thoughts???
-
This is an interesting topic, I can safely assume that the priests and scribes, etc. had a more extensive library of scripture than did the early church, and I can also safely assume that the Kennedy's, Hagee's, Robertson's, etc. have a more extensive library than do any of us, including Ray!
But what is the catalyst in understanding? God is. Unless He draws us and opens our hearts to His Word we could quote every verse by memory and still think as a base, carnal man. On the other hand, as Chris stated earlier we must trust the scriptures and any revelation that we may receive, even if it sounds reasonable and attractive must be verified by His Word or else it has no Light, just the appearance of light. (paraphrased from Isaiah 8:20).
Jesus was not ambiguous when He stated;
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
If we are blessed to be chosen to hear His Words and through God given faith are able to begin to understand we certainly will be motivated to search scripture diligently and pray for wisdom and discernment.
Deu 4:10 Especially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth and that they may teach their children.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
It is all of God, He has seen fit to give many of us unprecedented access to His Word through our present technology, all this was put in place before the foundation of the world to suit His plan and purpose for us. Trust in Him, listen to hear His voice in all things and be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) as we work out our salvation (Phi 2:12).
His Peace to you,
Joe
-
Chris, we aren't alking about Christians before CHrist, we're talking about Christians before the printing press ;)
-
God will get His Word to His chosen people of any generation and at any location, He thought all this through "before the foundation of the earth."
Peace,
Joe
-
I get what many of you are saying. The Spirit and the Word. We need both, they witness of each other they are reciprocal. And, we all know that God gives grace as needed. I think about the Chinese Christians. Stories about them passing around just a page of scripture, maybe just a few hand written verses, and yet they have the faith to give up their lives for Him. A friend of mine once said that the scriptues are supernatural and alive, God could teach us everything we need from one verse.
-
Yes Kat!
Remember the fish and the loaves? There is more to that parable than physical food for a day.
His Peace to you,
Joe
-
Hi Dean. Question for you. You mentioned friends of yours turning away after hearing that the scriptures were corrupted. Do you think that there was something in them that wanted a reason not to believe? We have ALL heard somewhere along the line that the bible is a myth, corrupted by men, etc. We never bought any of that, but some obviously do. I'm not sure if I believe that an HONEST Christian could be swayed so easily, but you know some personally, what do you think?
-
Hi Joe,
Thanks for that little nudge. That just made me see that in a whole new way :) It's funny how those truths are just sitting there waiting for God to show them to us.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Anyway, the question that keeps comming up, and HAS for years for me, is WHAT DID PEOPLE DO BEFORE THE SCRIPTURES BECAME COMMONLY AVAILABLE?
Just when I was ready to lay low again for a while, a question comes up that deals with a particular focus of my own journey.
There is plenty of material out there about the early believers in the "Christian" movement (they weren't called "Christians" until way after the Ascension, btw) and what they believed, used as Scripture, etc... Much of it is no longer accepted by the "modern" community.
Think of how diverse the world of orthodox Christianity is today. We have New England Congrgationalist, "Snake-handling" Pentacostals from the southern Appalachians, Wide-eyed healers in independent churches, Pious Greek Orthodox monks, and so forth. Each calls upon the name of Jesus as Lord and Savior, but in such a way that makes them the target of other worldviews from within the believing community. Even within this online community, we see how easy it is to "condemn" a brother or sister who disagrees with us on very minor points of theology or practice.
The early church was just as bad, I am afraid to say. If we were searching for a "Christian" church in the middle of the second century, we could choose from communities which taught that there are 2, 30 and even 365 different gods. There was a parish who taught that the OT is a evil book. The diversity is astounding (and one of my passions) because each of these communities counted themselves as followers of Jesus! Each of these communities could verify that Jesus himself taught these lessons and many had written apostolic truth penned by those who walked and talked with Jesus! "The more things change...." as they say!
The earliest form of Christian religion in the second century were the Adoptionists (a fascinating viewpoint, btw). For them, to call Jesus God was a blasphemous lie. They used a Hebrew text which is very similar to the Gospel of Matthew less the first two chapters. To them, Paul was the arch-heretic blasphemer.
Another group -- a very large group (early "superchurch?") were the Marcionites. Marcion was a scholar and evangelist who maintained that Paul was the true apostle. Marcionites were also at odds with the differences between the OT God and the God of Jesus. Their views on Jesus also maintained that Jesus was not a flesh-and-blood human -- he only seemed human.
There were Gnostic Christians who were numbered largely in the urban areas. Agreeing largely with Marcion, they also adopted a Jesus of two distinct beings: the human Jesus and the divine Jesus. Some forms of Gnosticism claimed 30 gods and up to 365 gods and yet still, the One True God was not the God of the OT. (Ever wondered where the title "Children of a Lesser God" came from?)
The group that finally prevailed and whose teachings changed to accomodate more and more heretics (I interrupt this post to reveal to you that the word "heretic" has its roots in the Greek word for "choice" -- as in those heretics over there choose not to believe our way! It had nothing to do with being "wrong" or "evil" until loving, adoring Christians gave it power over peoples' lives) and, of the course the Jesus -- fully human/fully divine discussions of the Johannines.
It's hard to keep this short...
The long and short of it is that many Christians had access to one or two books which were regarded as apostolic and used them as their holy library. There was no authorized NT for hundreds and hundreds of years. The Gospels being handed down through generations stayed mainly in their own groups: The Gnostics prefered the Gospels of Peter (probably the most widely-read Gospel in the early church), John, Philip, and Thomas. Jewish Christians preferred Matthew.
Remember also, outside of the Torah, there was no hard-and-fast layout of the Jewish scripture.
There certainly was scripture, but we are nowhere near an authorized Bible.
The points I would like to address in response to your question are:
1. Diversity in believers is not a new thing. People who walked with those who walked with the earliest saints had varying ideas, customs, and outlooks. Why can't we? As long as we keep to the basic tenets of Jesus' teaching, are we not on solid ground? If the Bible is the most researched and scrutinized book in history, can we not use it as an authoritative, reliable source for these teachings? If the earliest believers were confused, whence comes our arrogance that we can discern who is "elect", "chosen", or "condemned to Johnny Cash's 'Ring of Fire'" played for an eon??
2. The canon of the Bible was not authorized until around the 16th century (give or take -- I'm flying without notes). Is that when we should take it to heart as a believing community? What about the Christians (and there were thousands) who relied on non-canonical books where is their salvation?
Books like the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas among others were used to establish the earliest sacred traditions in the early communities. Are they then "God-breathed"? Parts of them? BY THE WAY, when the book of Tim makes the bold statement that all scriptures are "God-breathed," what Scripture is he talking about? The Book of Revelation had not even been written yet, while other major book were being referred-to as Scripture that never made it into the canon.
3. Finally, and I apologize (pun intended!) for the length here, the biggest danger I see is that of history repeating itself over and over and over. Our modern terminology aside, a Pharisee is Jesus' day was the person who knew the words and traditions better than anyone. The studied the Scripture and tried to maintain the purity of it. Trouble is, they got so lost in the words that they forgot their meaning. Along comes Jesus and he preaches a new interpretation of the Jewish Law and He is killed for it!
Of course, I am sure that there are good and bad Pharisees, but generally, their sacred duty was to preserve the witness of the words (logos for those of you taking notes), rather than the presence of God beyond all understanding of the words (mythos, again for the note-takers)! Jesus was the marriage of the logos and the mythos. Why not us?
Peace
-
Fascinating Pax. I love that stuff. (history) Thanks.
-
Pax, you wrote the following and I quote:
Diversity in believers is not a new thing. People who walked with those who walked with the earliest saints had varying ideas, customs, and outlooks. Why can 't we? As long as we keep to the basic tenets of Jesus ' teaching, are we not on solid ground? If the Bible is the most researched and scrutinized book in history, can we not use it as an authoritative, reliable source for these teachings? If the earliest believers were confused, whence comes our arrogance that we can discern who is "elect ", "chosen ", or "condemned to Johnny Cash 's 'Ring of Fire ' " played for an eon?I
I read your post with great interest; however, I must comment your statement above.
Yes there are many bibles, just as there are beliefs. BUT, there is only one Spirit of Truth, hence there can be only one Truth.
One must never forget this. Man's truth should not be the basis of understanding. Prob 3:5,6
So how does one know lif one has the truth. All I can say is that, when God makes Himself known, one knows and the Truth is seen for what it is.
Love on Christ,
Darren
-
Hi Pax,
Interesting bit of info.
What I got is that regardless of what actually is used as a source of our knowledge of God, we must be guided by the Spirit of Christ. That is what unites all elect/believers down through the centuries.
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
God has brought about and used all of the things that you spoke of, but was more than capable of teaching those He chose His Truth.
We are blessed at this time to have all we have available to us, that is by His design also.
His plan is being worked out precisely as He see fit.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Sorry, I posted before reading all of the replies. ::)
Tim
-
Amen once again Kat & Darren :),
Uz r so making life easier 4 me :D coz I dont hav 2 think & better still type :D, But! brother / sister U r so right. I jus wana say if I may :) , b4 being called out by GOD I so hated reading well I still do really but not so much hate now, bcoz I would read & not even no wot I had jus read so wot was da point in readn, But! now I hav read the whole Bible wit abit of understanding cumn frm it. So wot Im tryn 2 say is even tho I really didnt quite understand wot I hav read, I wouldnt let NO one tell me jus bcoz I dont read or dont understand wot I am reading much, I dont know!!! GOD or HE aint with me bcoz I cant read & not understand. WelL! I HONESTLY!!!can say I KNOW!!!! HES right HERE/THERE with mE! every second, every minute, every hour, every day, every week, every month & Every! year of my life & I hav learn't HE Always has & always Will be, & d@s da TRUTH!!, GODBLESS! uZ!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
Ps. I hope ive made sense, 2 me it does lol! :) :D PeacE!!!
-
Dear Tracy,
I hope I can answer your question without making it appear that I reject the Sovereignty of God. I believe that God in his Sovereignty has given human beings the ability to think and reason. Therefore, I think it is possible for someone who truly believes in God to be convinced that God does not exist. I do not think that rejecting God's existence is the will of God.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
Of course it's not His will Dean. However, it is His purpose that many will reject Him in this life.
-
Amen! & Amen! 2 d@ musicman,
muchLOVE!! Pera
-
Dear Pax,
Let me begin by saying that if I have offended you in any way I am truly sorry. I receive you as my brother in christ even though we have different views on this subject. I just finished reading a four volume set of books on Systematic Theology. It traces a great deal of the doctrinal development of many of the doctrines held by christians for the last 2000 years. It is all very interesting. However, I am learning from many of my new friends here at BT that there is more to being a christian then book knowledge. I have always spent too much time and energy trying to understand everything. Sometimes our great learning can drive us from the faith. When we forget what is important we can become cynical and lose our faith. If you have every read Dan Barker's book, Losing Faith in Faith, you know how easy it is to fall into despair when we lose our faith in God. Dan went from christian to God hater. What about Bart Ehrman? What drove him to stop believing in God? Although you admire his great learning, you ultimately have to acknowledge that you fundamentally disagree with his conclusions. If you did not disagree, you would not be a christian. So, while he may have some truth, his ultimate conclusions about God are wrong. My basic concern with the things you have stated are that they can cause damage to people. If Bart Ehrman went from being a christian to being an agnostic why would we want to recommend his books to someone. There is something essentially flawed with his thinking. If not, shouldn't we all follow his example?
Did you know that Baha'is often claim that they are christians? After all, wasn't Jesus speaking of Baha'u'llah when he predicted his second coming? They have scriptures to prove it. Perhaps this kind of false teaching is why we need to stick to the 66 books of the Bible. There may be other truth out there but I certainly am not willing to put my trust in it.
Pax, I apologize if I come off as a Pharisee.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
Thanks for the kind words Pera. :)
I read somwhere that knowledge is not anything on it's own; whereas wisdom is knowledge in action. I like that. I see you puting in action much you have learned, does this not by defintion, make you wise also.
God is working in all of us for His purpose. :)
In Him who cares,
Darren
-
What about Bart Ehrman? What drove him to stop believing in God?
First of all, no one who is striving for truth can offend me -- no intended, none taken.
Remember I spoke only of Professor Ehrman's books. His scholarship is excellent and for the question of Biblical development, there are few contemporary writers better. Although he applies the ice-cold knife of history to his writings, I have read many, many published and unpublished writings of his and have never read that he denies a belief in God.
Thanks for the note,
Peace
-
Dean,
If I may... I would like to offer a few thoughts to you..
First...
Can Pax, Ehrman or anyone else for that matter, type or say any information that God has not already known and intended for us to see and hear at this very moment?
The only "damage" that can be caused to anyone... is what was already intended and is actively being worked out by God's perfect wisdom.
Second,...
"Being a Christian" has very little, if anything at all, to do with following Christ.
God's Peace.
Josh
-
Big replies!! Good thread!
Joe's "Listen to hear His voice..." [exact quote] Bingo! WINS THE PRIZE!
To the dear person who started this, Tracy, at this point, you can opt to receive more info from human kind, OR... shut off the superfluous sounds around you and humbly seek [like on a daily basis]... directly from "The Horse's Mouth..." ASK HIM for more of what He wants you to know. You are gonna be surprised in a great way. ;) I will whisper a "sacred secret" to you.... who you gon' call?? ;) [Ghost busters?????]
Dear Pax, thanks so much for bringing out in a detailed way that there were myriads of Christian-type peoples, some in caves, all various sects some with their own scrolls [I recently learned a lot from the History Channel] and different beliefs. Yes, "the more things change, the more they do remain the same." [It's actually quite funny!] And thanks for the insight into the history and meaning of the word "heretic," I was taking notes. Also, dear apologist, thanks for 'marrying' the two words logos and mythos for me; I learn something new every day. :)
Thanks for your input too Dean although it's hard for me to discern what the (slight) disagreement is about.
Kat -- Righto from me about your first paragraph.
Darren -- Your rhetorical question about "who knows if one has the truth?" I would guess, because knowing is not being... that it would be upon resurrection, first or second, to confirm the 'being' aspect of how He has lined it all up.
Pera -- I'm so very glad you have read the entire bible... now you know WHAT'S NOT IN THERE.... i.e., eternal torment and a bunch more unscriptural crap.... muah! muah! :-* U r coool dude!!
-
Fascinating stuff Pax!
All the denominations, cults, etc. certainly reminds one of the Tower of Babel.
Peace,
Joe
-
Dean,
I need to speak up for Pax here. I have read some of Ehrman's books and I felt they were very good at cutting out the fat and getting to the meat of religion, and christianity in general. I think that anyone who wants to become more scholarly about religion should look them over. Now I've not read all of his books and writings so I might have missed something. Where did you hear that he did not believe in God? I seem to recall that he talked about his faith being stronger since he began his studies. I can see where christianity might say that he is heretic, but they say that about us.
If what you say is a fact then I would like to know.
Blessings
Craig
-
Dear Craig,
Here is a link that will give you some information.
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/03/misanalyzing-text-criticism-bart.html
-
Thanks, I'll look it over closer.
Does Ehrman claim he is agnostic? Or do others label him as one?
-
Ehrman has referred to himself at many times as a "Happy Agnostic." Now it really depends on one's interpretation of agnosticism.
Most people equate agnostics as atheists. Not so.
By the way, ask the next atheist you talk to if it is reasonable to not believe in something that does not exist!
My understanding of agnosticism is a person who realizes that we will never definitively find The Answer or The God in his or her lifetime. They don't deny that God exists per se merely that God's existence cannot be proved to his or her satisfaction. Think of it as a believer without faith!??!
From Professor Ehrman's writings, seminars, and interviews, he is a keen wit. I would imagine that "Happy Agnostic" breaks the ice and allows room for a historical (as opposed to a theological) perspective. If he were atheistic, it would be possible, yet doubtful that he could keep his chair at UNC or maintain any authenticity.
I encourage anyone to read him, just remember that he is a historian, not a commentator.
Craig, watch who you are defending -- I don't want to sully my hard-earned reputation!
Peace
-
Dear Pax,
I like having a scholar such as yourself around.
Scholar comes from a Greek word meaning "leisure." To be a true scholar, a person must have time free from other work, in which to study. The Greek word was later used to mean "discussion." Talking with others about what one has studied is an important part of learning.
from my Childcraft dictionary :)
Lisa
-
Hi Joe,
Interesting that you would mention the tower of Babel. The thought has crossed my mind recently that this world is getting to that point again.
Gen 11:5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.
v. 6 And the LORD said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
Of course man was not getting ahead of God here, it was intended to happen that way. So these things that happened in the OT is examples or a shadow of something to come.
1Co 10:11 And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our warning on whom the ends of the world have come.
To me the world seems to have gapped the language barrier and is building the tower of Babel anew.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Just to amend my suggestion to Tracy that it never hurts to ask the Lord to become one with His will and spirit... and I mentioned asking Him so daily. [Because after all, that is "how THEY all did it", by Spirit.] Well, I would like to sort of upgrade that idea a bit and back it up with a short section I've been reading in Manfred Haller's God's Goal: Christ As All in All. Re: The Flesh: [Emphasis mine]
I cannot escape the flesh by evading a problem and doing things my way, but only by taking up things which cost me dearly, by enduring circumstances which contradict my staunchest sentiments and judgments, and by clinging to fellowship with the brethren, whereby all profit, not I alone. Only in this way do I learn the way of the Spirit: when in each situation I entrust myself to Him, anticipating His solution, without going forth on my own. If the solution is not from Him, I will inevitably continue to react in the flesh, my spiritual life turning in circles.
This spoke a lot to me as I hope it does you!
Pax, I'm very grateful for your scholarly self! :)
Janice
-
Dear Pax,
Thanks for all your input. I always learn something whenever I get into these discussions.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic....for more details...
Agnosticism (from the Greek a, meaning "without" and gnosis, "knowledge", translating to unknowable) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly theological claims regarding metaphysics, afterlife or the existence of God, god(s), or deities — is unknown or (possibly) inherently unknowable. Some agnostics take a stronger view that the concept of a deity is incoherent, thus meaningless and irrelevant to life. The term is used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as about other matters of religion. Early Christian church leaders used the Greek word gnosis (knowledge) to describe "spiritual knowledge". "Agnostic" came from the union of it to the Greek / Latin prefix a, and was originally coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in 1869 to describe his philosophy. Agnosticism is not to be confused with religious views opposing the doctrine of gnosis and Gnosticism— these are religious concepts that are not generally related to agnosticism.
Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism. Data collection services[1][2] often display the common use of the term, distinct from atheism in its lack of disputing the existence of deities.
Agnostics are normally listed alongside categories such as atheist and non-religious, although this may be misleading. For example prominent agnostics such as Aleksander Kwaśniewski and Michelle Bachelet have been notably Christian in their outlook. Qualifying agnosticismCritics of the term "agnostic" claim that there is nothing distinctive in being agnostic because even many theists do not claim to know God(s) exists -- only to believe it. Under this asserted distinction between the words "belief" and "knowledge," agnosticism has recently started suffering from terminological ambiguity. While critics maintain the distinction is not contrived; others reject the distinction as trifling. By contrast, compare:
"I believe God(s) exist(s)" means that "I know God(s) exist(s)".
"I believe God(s) exist(s)" can still mean "I don't know if God(s) exist(s)".
If this distinction is accepted, the term agnostic becomes orthogonal to theism without further qualifiers, and many qualifiers become contradictory unless the distinction is accepted. If this distinction is ultimately accepted by the larger public, the group formerly described by the term will again find themselves without a label, because the qualifiers provided would be inappropriate for their philosophy.
For me either you are not understanding which is a carnal mind condition that is not equipped to undersand and is not able to see or know the things of the Spirit. If you are understanding the things that are discerned by the Spirit through the Spirit that gives knowledge, wisdom and comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God then your understanding comes not from being any class of Christian but from the Spirit of Christ Himself.
I would not believe or follow any teaching that comes from a carnal mind. God is not the author of confusion which for me is a fruit of carnality. So if a person says they are carnal and then produces many teachings....I would know not to take any in or to heart. :D I would not even waste a pinch of salt on it!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Dear Arcturus,
Thank you! Your insightful and well worded post cuts to the heart of the issue. You have expressed my thoughts exactly. I wish I could have said it as eloquently as you did.
Regarding agnostics. I once read the book of an atheist who expressed the thought that there is no such thing as an agnostic when it comes to belief in God. A theist is someone that believes in the existence of God. An A-theist is someone that does not believe in the existence of God. The only difference is that the one who calls himself an atheist claims he knows with a certainty that God does not exist. Likewise, the agnostic DOES NOT BELIEVE that God exists. However, their reasons are different. They don't claim that they can prove that God does not exist as some atheists do BUT they do not believe in the existence of God. The fact that they don't believe in the existence of God means they are atheists no matter how they try to define themselves or how hard they try to avoid the label.
These are the words of an atheist not mine. But I agree with them.
Further, if someone does not believe that God exists they are detached from reality. So, no matter how much information they have memorized they will always be confused.
Arcturus, all of my words cannot match the power of the words God gave you to speak on this subject. Thank you for standing up for the truth.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
To add Dean,
Ray teaches the following that has a bearing on this discussion as I see it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
People want to be their own demigod, which cannot be controlled by anything or any one. This is the one area were all humanity can shine.
People don’t approve of God’s way of doing things. They argue that if God is sovereign and operates as the Scriptures tell us, then it isn’t fair and it isn’t even morally right.
They say that for God to be in total control of us would be to treat us like robots. And that it would be evil for God to predetermine us to do evil before He allows good to be done in us. And so, as the world of Christendom does not approve of the God of Scripture, they create their own god in their own image—one that they themselves can control by the power of their own supernatural freedom of will. And because they cannot with a carnal mind love and obey God, and
"…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall SEND THEM strong delusion, that they should believe a [the] LIE: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thes. 2:10-12).
It follows as is carried elsewhere in the Forum on the Sinners Prayer Thread noted by Kat:
Ray says:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4181.0.html ------
Dear Jim:
Primarily, we must repent of our "carnal minds" which HATE God (I realize that most people do not believe that they ever hated God, but by their disobedience,they prove that they did),
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Thanks again Arcturus. I am so glad you decided to contribute to this post. I knew you would have some words of wisdom for us.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
So, am I to understand that since a very learned man does not agree with my theology, that I should then question his integrity as a historian?
That seems more akin to malice than wisdom.
Peace
-
Proverbs 15:10 There is severe discipline for him who forsakes God's way; and he who hates reproof will die physically, morally and spiritually. 12 A scorner has no love for one who rebukes him; neither will he go to the wise for counsel.
Proverbs 1:5 The wise also will hear and increase in learning, and the person of understanding will acquire skill and attain to sound counsel, so that he may be able to steer his course rightly.
Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
Which is it Pax? (Rhetorical question! :D ;D)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
-
Dear Pax,
I understand your perspective but I think you are understating the case. Ehrman does not merely disagree with your theology. He thinks what you believe it totally false. Do the below statements sound like a disagreement over theology.
*******************************************************************************
Sometimes Christian apologists say there are only three options to who Jesus was: a liar, a lunatic or the Lord," he tells a packed auditorium here at the University of North Carolina, where he chairs the department of religious studies. But there could be a fourth option --legend.
Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was no real historical record. It was, he felt, all incense and myth, told by illiterate men
I just began to lose it," Ehrman says now, in a conversation that stretches from late afternoon into the evening. It wasn't for lack of trying. But I just couldn't believe there was a God in charge of this mess.
He thinks that when you die, there are no Pearly Gates. I think you just cease to exist, like the mosquito you swatted yesterday.
***********************************************************************************
Pax, my brother, Ehrman is an atheist, does not believe that Jesus ever existed and that the New Testament was written by illiterate men. This is more than a dispute over theology.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
Ok OK OK OK!
Arcturus, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Dean, I can certainly learn from a person who does not share my theology. For instance, Ray and I differ on some core issues, but I learn something from him each time I read one of his theses. Actually, if our experience of God is individual, can anyone really share a theology? Alas, that is another thread entirely. As a historian of Ancient Christianity, my brother Bart Ehrman has taught me much. He is as much my brother as you. And even though you and I may have competing theologies, I would dare not say that I could not learn anything from you -- particularly if you were an expert in field.
I do not require that any of the authors I read share my rather unorthodox worldview. I am adept at discernment and my God can certainly withstand a little scrutiny. God doesn't need any help to handle agnostics, atheists or zealots. To throw the historian out with the bath water is too narrow for me and I believe that I would be less of a child of the Almighty if I were to only learn from those who share my view on matters not at hand.
Let's call it a day, OK?
Peace
-
Hi guys,
My thoughts.
God does not need flesh to teach anyone. The flesh that had the right to teach is now spirit.
We learn in spirit. Do not put your trust in man or his ways. what about Ray? He is led by Gods spirit otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Its an idol.
Randy
-
Amen! Randy,
I reckon so 2 GODBLESS!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
-
Oh My.... here we go again ....REMEMBER there is no need for division if we are ONE in Ghrist.
OT
(Ecc 12:11 REV) The words of the wise, are as goads, yea, as driven nails, their well-ordered sayings,-given from one shepherd.
(Ecc 12:12 REV) And besides, from them, my son, be admonished,-Of making many books, there is no end, and, much study, is a weariness of the flesh.
NT
(2Ti 4:1 ALT) Therefore, I strongly urge [you] before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, the One being about to be judging [the] living and [the] dead at His appearing and His kingdom.
(2Ti 4:2 ALT) Preach the word! Be ready in season [and] out of season [fig., whether the time is favorable or not], convict, rebuke, [and] encourage, with all patience and teaching.
(2Ti 4:3 ALT) For there will be a time when they themselves will not put up with sound teaching, _but_ according to their own lusts they will heap up teachers to themselves, itching in the ear [fig., craving to hear what they want to hear],
(2Ti 4:4 ALT) and on the one hand they will turn away the ear from the truth, on the other hand they will be turned aside to myths.
(2Ti 4:5 ALT) But _you_, be sober [or, clear-headed] in all [things]; endure hardship; do the work of an evangelist; completely fulfill your ministry.
Every thing that every man says, writes and does is only done... by the Will of God....... many will be fooled by thier own stupidi words and actions and a few while here on earth will look back at their own lives and will be so thoroughly ashamed that they will ask for the burining coal to cleanse them.
Be(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/liebe/love-smiley-006.gif)loved
May my new alias foever be Hot Lips
-
All the Scriptures that were included in the cannon and all the verse/words that were later added or deleted later(by the many) in translations were all done (by the Will of God) to add to their own "delusion"
The study of church history is extremely laborious and to many people it can also be extremely boring. Many are not interested in the academics or the "who done it facts". I am like Pax who like to study and read this stuff and when I read it, I often sit in wonderment of the "facts".
On the other hand, I do not care if history, the bathwater or even the tub are thrown out. Studying science , medicine and yes even church history etc is an academic and carnal exercise (Boy do I love to do it.). Sometimes I can get so caught up in it that I have to look at it as it is ....as form of mental masturbation.(I do not mean to offend...I mean this spirituallY)
Remember : One one thing is needful and Mary ( aka the lazarus sister) has chosen that good part.
Beloved
Bleoved
-
Thank you Beloved, I really appreciated your post! Thanks for that reminder that God has manipulated the formation of the canon per His will. Yes, the related studies and academics have got to get done! He gives us each our lot to perform! God bless your theological endeavors. And Pax's.
Double amen to Randy and Pera!
And Dean, remember you're in Ray's "country" here on this forum, and when you die, THERE ARE NO PEARLY GATES, YOU DO CEASE TO EXIST JUST LIKE A SQUASHED MOSQUITO! I pray for your understanding in this. I am rebounding your own words and not intending to sound harsh. We all, quite simply, will sleep and rest in an unperceiving state until our resurrections. ;)
Janice
-
Pax
You say :Arcturus, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Pax....Pax...it was not MY POINT made it was God's point made. Here it is again!
Proverbs 15:10 There is severe discipline for him who forsakes God's way; and he who hates reproof will die physically, morally and spiritually. 12 A scorner has no love for one who rebukes him; neither will he go to the wise for counsel.
Proverbs 1:5 The wise also will hear and increase in learning, and the person of understanding will acquire skill and attain to sound counsel, so that he may be able to steer his course rightly.
Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Peace to you
Arcturus[/color] :)
-
Dear Pax,
I understand your point of view on this and so I agree that we bring this discussion to an end. However, I want you to know one thing. I am concerned about you. I do not want you to end up losing your faith like Ehrman and so many others. Always remember that Ehrman's ultimate conclusions are not correct. I acknowledge he is a brilliant scholar but he is wrong in his final analysis of the information. PLEASE, guard yourself from being led too far down that road of skepticism.
A friend of mine made the statement below and I hope someday I can be as humble as him.
"I was an arrogant person who thought I knew all the answers to all the big questions in the world. Now I realize that I really know nothing. All I know is that Christ knew all the answers and that He has the answers for every single person who has ever existed and ever will exist. And that if we look to Him, it is Him alone who can solve our problems and give us what we really need, in every possible way. I hope that God will work in my life in the ways that He knows is necessary, and that He will do the same for everyone else in every way that everybody else needs. And I hope that God will draw all souls in the world towards Jesus Christ, because it is only in Jesus that we can find the way."
Janice, I wanted to clarify something. I understand that there is not an immortal soul. I was making the point that Ehrman is making the claim that God does not exist and therefore when we die we are dead and gone FOREVER with no hope to be resurrected. This is not a debate about differences in our theology. Ehrman believes God does not exist, Jesus never existed and the Bible is a book of lies and falsehoods. I don’t agree with this.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
The word scholar appears twice in the KJV bible;
1 CH 25:8 And they cast lots, ward against ward, as well the small as the great, the teacher as the scholar.
MAL 2: 11-12 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
I think that is interesting and speaks for itself.
Peace to you, Lisa
-
Was it Godfather III where Al Pacino said "Just when I thought I was out...."?
It seems a very popular endeavor here to quote Bible verses which pit the righteous against the learned. Of course, it is convenient to administer these verses from sources whose translations push the point we are trying to make. These sources were written by.... you guessed it... theologians who went to school and were taught by all manner of people to attain the knowledge, skills and abilities to give you the wherewithal to attack... theologians!
Beloved, please hear that your statements merely remind me of so many instances where contributors disdain academics (medicine, science, and particularly those poor misguided theologians!) and is not meant to slight you in the least.
My point is this: Unless God Almighty speaks directly to us OR we are so well trained in the classics that we can read primary source material, THEN we are all beholden to the translative and interpretive abilities of theologians and linguists we have never met!
I will continue and encourage others to read everything from Plato and Camus to Ray Smith, Charles Spurgeon, A. W Pink, Billy Graham, Karen Armstrong and even that rascal Bart Ehrman! You know the bumper sticker about thanking teachers? Perhaps believers need a sticker that says, "If you can read your Bible in your native language, thank a theologian!" I cannot think of a decent Biblical reference which is opposed to knowledge -- there are plenty that deal with the misuse of, or misperception of, or narow, legalistic adherence to knowledge. Challenging the status quo is a Christ-like endeavor!
Now, for those spiritually arrogant whose "truths" have been delivered directly from the Spirit of the Living God, please shut me up (shut me down?) by showing how you came to your conclusions without the benefit of the "carnal" endeavors of others!
I thought so.
Peace
-
Pax
Eph 5:13 ...all...ALL THINGS that are reproved are made manifest by the LIGHT ( by the WHAT? LIGHT not carnal flesh...LIGHT!) for whatsoever does make manifest is LIGHT....(Light...LIGHT not scholarship or the wisdom of the worldly....BUT LIGHT...Who is the Father of LIGHTS Pax....twice stated in ONE SENTENCE...LIGHT. Who is the Father Pax? Flesh...your worldly wise fools? I think God means what He said and said what He means!)
You say Pax : please shut me up (shut me down?) by showing how you came to your conclusions without the benefit of the "carnal" endeavors of others!
You asked so nicely! :D ;D
Arcturus :)
-
Pax you make a good point. It may not be and probably won't be appreciated on the forum but I for one think you have a good handle on it. Especially for me who reads no Greek or Hebrew at all.
Nole
-
It seems a very popular endeavor here to quote Bible verses which pit the righteous against the learned. Of course, it is convenient to administer these verses from sources whose translations push the point we are trying to make. These sources were written by.... you guessed it... theologians who went to school and were taught by all manner of people to attain the knowledge, skills and abilities to give you the wherewithal to attack... theologians!
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Pax, you definitely have some unique thoughts and observations, you make remarks that minimize the quotation of scripture by the brethren but make pains to defend even exult the work of men who (through God's direction) helped make the scriptures available to the common man.
I do not only appreciate the time and effort of the scribes but also the time and effort of the laborers who cut down the trees to make the pulp which became the paper these Words were written on, the printers who made it a priority to produce bibles, the distributors who in some cases risked their life in getting this book into the hands of the very people the intellectuals such as the Popes, Lenin, Mao, etc. thought them better off without.
I am thankful for the technology that allows us to check, verify and search His Word at the touch of a keyboard.
Most of all I thank the Lord for making His plan and purpose for His creation known to us and for directing the steps of all those He chose to carry it forward.
Beloved, please hear that your statements merely remind me of so many instances where contributors disdain academics (medicine, science, and particularly those poor misguided theologians!) and is not meant to slight you in the least.
I am quite sure Beloved can empathize with your (no intention of slight of course) being reminded of us contributors who disdain any hint of knowledge since she is a Medical Doctor who I am sure has had the experience of her educated and wise council being ignored or rejected by patients....
Now, for those spiritually arrogant whose "truths" have been delivered directly from the Spirit of the Living God, please shut me up (shut me down?) by showing how you came to your conclusions without the benefit of the "carnal" endeavors of others!
I thought so.
Peace
Arrogant.... that word seems to fit here, let's see what scripture has to say about this attribute of the carnal mind;
1Sa 2:3 Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogance come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Jer 48:29 We have heard the pride of Moab, (he is exceeding proud) his loftiness, and his arrogance, and his pride, and the haughtiness of his heart.
Let us pray for discernment in all things (1Kings 3:11),
Joe
-
Dear Pax,
In case you are getting the wrong idea I want you to know that I love you as my brother. My purpose is not to persuade you from your academic endeavors. I just want to encourage you to always be careful. If you would indulge me I would like to encourage you to read Dan Barker's book, Losing Faith in Faith. He was a christian that became an atheist.
We can learn something from all of the people you mentioned but we have to use our discernment to make sure we do not allow ourself to be harmed by something they are advocating. I have to admit that over the years I have read hundreds perhaps thousands of theology books, books on christian history, philosophy books by both atheists, agnostics and christians. However, my eyes are being opened to the reality that I have to stop trying to save myself by acquiring knowledge. God is in charge and I am just a fool that has to keep reminding myself of that fact. The thing I pray for more than anything else is the power to love other people with my whole heart. I know I have a long way to go. In my posts and in my life outside of this forum I make it a habit to never make sarcastic remarks, never say an unkind word (at least not intentionally), and never insinuate something but instead state it directly. I try to be as transparent as I can. No hidden agendas, no hidden meanings. So please believe me, what you read in my posts is all there is. I try to be as straightforward and direct as possible. With all that said, my only message to you is please be careful.
Sincerely,
Dean
-
Dean ~ thank you for the clarification on this matter; so kind of you to respond.
I hope to post more to this intriguing thread later as I appreciate it all so much. Sorry, I am tired tonight.
With love, Janice :)
-
Hi Tracy,
I think as God opens your eyes a little more the scriptures will become
clearer and you want feel so overwhelmed. just pray for God to show
you the deeper meanings of His word and He will help you to understand.
Iris
-
I thought this might help.
THE IMPORTANT STUFF:
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray.
No preaching (including preaching via links).
Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching. Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.
No name-calling.
This forum is moderated, if you feel you cannot accept the bounds of a limited forum then don’t join. The moderators do not have the time to explain every decision to you on why a post was deleted, so don’t expect it.
-
AH, another example of the two-edged sword. Seems as though the scriptures can bring life or death. For those looking to find God by exclusively carnal means, (study, reason, logic, science, etc.) death, as what has happened to the aforementioned Christian turned agnostic.
1 Cor. 1:19 I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
We must call on His Spirit to bring the scriptures to life, to us and in us. I do and have always believed that one could intellectualize their faith right away...The carnal mind can never please or find God because it cannot comprehend the one thing God wants...faith. Faith cannot be put under a microscope...it IS NOT SEEING yet believing.
This thread has spoken to me. I should just relax in my study a bit more and start depending on Him to reveal more and be happy with what I get or don't get. Thanks to all.
-
Why did the rules get brought up? It didn't seem like anyone was crossing any lines. Pax and others are just sharing what they have learned and are learning.
-
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
I agree, no lines have been crossed, but it is getting close. That is why it was probably posted.
Craig