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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on June 10, 2006, 05:16:01 PM
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Hey guys, i got a question.
After learning many spiritual truths, and i know im no where near the end, just scratching the Tip of the iceberg here ive become slightly confused.
All my days i was taught Jesus would come a second time.
The more and more i read revalations (Which is what i used to Justify His second coming to earth) the more i realize its completely spiritual and has to do with us, His followers. The more i study the more i realize JESUS IS BACK, except He is back in us. As He is, so are we in the world.
So my question is, Is Jesus gonna come back to this fleshy world?
That would bring me to my next question.
I was always taught that when Jesus returns to this Fleshy earth that He would sound a physical trumpet and we would arise from the graves, and those that didn't die would be caught up in the heavens with Him, and He would start His reign on earth. Now like i've said this has become less and less the truth for me the more i learn the fruits of the spirit. So if this isn't the case, when exactly do we rise to our inheritence at the end of days, if Jesus isn't really coming back to this fleshy earth at all?
Thanks for any help and answers in advanced,
God bless,
Alex
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Good question, Alex.
We have been taught so many lies. Now that the blinders are coming off, we see many beliefs are not true. So, what about this grand second coming they preach about.
His Spirit is in us now and His kingdom is not of this world. Kind of has me stumped a little also. Another question that goes along with this is the Thousand year reign. Is this symbolic of something other that a literal rule on this earth?
God bless,
Gary
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The world will end though. most likely in the next 100 years. I really do not see us going on for another 200 hundred years but we might, if it is God will. Human nature and technological growth demand it.
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in a split second, a twinkling, unseen particals become visible, BAM
time and space mean NOTHING.
peace
chuckt
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Alex,
You will get a variety of responses, this is one of those things you need to search out. Don't assume that what He teaches you (as he does) in accordance with His words will resound back to you in everyone.
At this point where you are is a good place. Questions come because you doubt in yourself asking, "what do these things mean"? Its the interpretation given by others you heard on these things you are questioning. Thats good let Him show you. He has the ability to "convince" or not to convince you of something. That why its best to trust whats "in you" is either affirming or not affirming. We all have that in us.
Where is the word "reign". Whats a "thousand years" likened to? Whats His definition of rule? Why don't the apostles sound like todays teachers? What are we waiting for? Hoping for? Desiring? What would it "look like" if it appeared? I ask myself these questions all the time. Did the religious in Christs time in the flesh misunderstand by their own wisdom? A scribe is one of those of whom is considered "the wisdom of this world" thats foolishness to Him. THE Teachers of the time (and THAT of the book). Did they know the scriptures? No but they shared from them. What is it to know the scriptures and the "power of God"? Whats the difference? Is there one? See? These are honest and respectable questions.
Who else can reveal the Father but The Son? Thats our hope, to "know Him". We need a direction, our hearts into His love. He is so able to teach us. Be confident in "that".
I like what Jesus says here, always blessed me.
Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.[/u]
This one always got me to bend my ear and listen to how something was worded and what He was trying to say. Praying all the while He help me asking for His holy Spirit to guide me always in His ways.
I'll pray for your understanding. At this point it might appear as "guess work" and differences of opinion sometimes breed other things. Familiarize yourself with these things and write down (or remember) the first question that arises in you when you cant connect the dots. Thats good. When it starts to look like a grocery list of weird time tables, God help you :lol: Nah trust Him always
Peace
Daniel
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Chuckt I just love all your posts!!
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I hope someone can answer this question with spiritual truths from the scriptures. I am not 100% sure, but the second coming has already occurred with the baptism of His Spirit.
We were baptized unto His death and baptized unto His life. Born of water and the Spirit. Begotten by God, born and maturing into His sonship. I am just not sure what the "thousand years" mean, except that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, so the thousand years is the Day of the Lord, when we are brought out of the darkness and into the light. The Day is now for us, the thousand years is now. Not quite sure, this has been a question that needs surety, if you know what I mean.
God bless,
Gary
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Thank you all for the great responces, unfortunately im still stumped lol.
If the 1000 year reign is not a time when we reign WITH christ but is in our lifetime, i know for sure then that 1000 years is not literaly speaking of 1000 yeras cuz i know i can only live like 100 max years lol.
So thats got me stumped,
And if Christ isn't actualy returning to this world because i seem to understand it as He is in me and He has returned, then when exactly are the dead aroused from there graves and resurected to knew life with Christ ? (As in the sounding of the trumpets, i know for us that we have been raised from death into life, but i mean for the others who don't see this, as in non-believers and believers that aren't apart of the "few chosen.")
Boy i got like 70 years ahead of me, but waiting that long to learn so much truths is darn hard.. i know im young still but i just want to know it all right now ><
I guess i need ot be taught some patience.. perhaps this is what this is all about. :/
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Thank you all for the great responces, unfortunately im still stumped lol.
If the 1000 year reign is not a time when we reign WITH christ but is in our lifetime, i know for sure then that 1000 years is not literaly speaking of 1000 yeras cuz i know i can only live like 100 max years lol.
So thats got me stumped,
And if Christ isn't actualy returning to this world because i seem to understand it as He is in me and He has returned, then when exactly are the dead aroused from there graves and resurected to knew life with Christ ? (As in the sounding of the trumpets, i know for us that we have been raised from death into life, but i mean for the others who don't see this, as in non-believers and believers that aren't apart of the "few chosen.")
Boy i got like 70 years ahead of me, but waiting that long to learn so much truths is darn hard.. i know im young still but i just want to know it all right now ><
I guess i need ot be taught some patience.. perhaps this is what this is all about. :/
I have gone through these questions in my head over and over, and still don't get it. Just because one person says it is this way, claim it as truth, doesn't mean it is. For me, I have to keep going back to what matters. God is love. Love never fails. We can know Him now, and life eternal is ours now.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
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This person is MORE confused after reading these responses. If you don't have an answer, why not remain silent.
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I don't think we can spritualize everything we see in the Scriptures because we've suddenly become "allurgic" to literal interpretation. I'm told in the Word in Acts 1:11, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"
I for one believe that He will come just like that - as it was told us.
And Alex, my heart goes out to you when you say that you're "struggling every step of the way" because I often feel that way too.
Just something that may help you as it helped me:
I realized one day that we here on earth are bound to time and space. The moment we die, we are no longer in time and space. In fact, when we die we enter into the eternal "now" even although our bodies (still in time and space) will rot in a grave. In terms of the eternal now we all die at exactly the same moment - the NOW moment of the eternal now. That is why Jesus could say "before Abraham was, I am" That is why in an instant - just like a real sleep - we wake on the other side. Your question is "when". Maybe that could help.
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(Act 1:11) who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.
Checking Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, neither of these mention this in their account. Is there a second or third witness to the above verse?
(Mar 16:19) So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
(Luk 24:51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.
Mathew and John don't mention Jesus being received up to heaven. Mark and Luke mention Him being received up to heaven, but no mention of His return.
Personally, He has already returned, because His Spirit is in me. Just would like to hear of more verses about this subject if anybody knows of any.
God bless,
Gary
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(2Co 13:5) Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.
This verse here, why look for some huge second coming, when He is already in us?
(Col 1:26) even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
(Col 1:27) to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Again, why look for His second coming, when He already is in us?
(Rom 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:10) And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Seems to me as it was during the life of Jesus, the majority of people did not recognize that He was in their midst, it is still the same for the majority today. The Israelites of the OT did not see Him in their midst. The same for the people during Jesus ministry and still seems to be the same even now.
Does anybody see this? Would like some additional input and help.
God bless,
Gary
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That is my problem, if Jesus isn't actualy physically coming back, which now it seems very apperent that He won't be, then when do the Dead hear the trumpets of GOd and rise from there graves? I always was taught that i was when He returned, see my problem?
Does that mean we just sleep for eternity in our graves then?
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That is my problem, if Jesus isn't actualy physically coming back, which now it seems very apperent that He won't be, then when do the Dead hear the trumpets of GOd and rise from there graves? I always was taught that i was when He returned, see my problem?
Does that mean we just sleep for eternity in our graves then?
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (G3952) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Greek word for coming as in "the coming of the Lord" is:
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
Thayer Definition:
1) presence
2) the coming, arrival, advent
2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the present participle of G3918
Citing in TDNT: 5:858, 791
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, (G5319)we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
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The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.
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The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.
Amen to that Origen II
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Origen 11 has expressed my sentiments too. Why is everyone suddenly so besotted with spritualizing everything in the fear of believing just a little something that might just be meant literally? What? Is nothing literal in the Scriptures anymore according to some of you??
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Great post Andy, a few more verses;
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Clouds = elect (enter "clouds" on the E-sword Bible Search, check the verses, tell me what you think)
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, bu they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Reign over who and when?
Very interested in comments, we can cover a lot of ground in this thread,
Joe
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johann writes;
[Origen 11 has expressed my sentiments too. Why is everyone suddenly so besotted with spritualizing everything in the fear of believing just a little something that might just be meant literally? What? Is nothing literal in the Scriptures anymore according to some of you??]
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Joe writes;
I can see your point, there does seem to be a few that believe the physical has no significance, but "faith without works (2041)" is what?
"Works" defined in the original Greek;
G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
"Dead" (3498);
G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.
When you look at the fruits of the spirit you can see that they must be manifested externally (physically) as well as inwardly (spiritual) for them to be genuine.
It is one thing to sit at a keyboard and proclaim our love for mankind and quite another to get off of our backsides and actually do something for someone with no expectation of a returned favor or even gratitude.
I hope I am not coming across as harsh or judgemental because I assure you that is not my intention, I am questioning myself as much or more than anyone else.
Again, there is alot to potentially cover here, all comments are welcome and appreciated.
Peace,
Joe
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The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.
I do not wish to bring any heresy into this forum. The ressurrection is the crux of our belief. I know when this body dies, it will return to the dust from whence it came and the spirit will return to God.
(1Co 15:12) But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is not a resurrection of the dead?
(1Co 15:13) But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.
(1Co 15:14) But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless.
(1Co 15:15) And also we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed as to God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if the dead ones are not raised.
(1Co 15:16) For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised.
(1Co 15:17) But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is foolish; you are still in your sins.
(1Co 15:18) And then those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
(1Co 15:19) If we only have hope in Christ in this life, we are of all men most miserable.
(1Co 15:20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
(1Co 15:21) For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
(1Co 15:22) for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
(1Co 15:23) But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
(1Co 15:24) Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
(1Co 15:25) For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1
(1Co 15:26) the last hostile thing made to cease is death.
(1Co 15:27) For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6
(1Co 15:28) But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
(1Co 15:29) Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?
(1Co 15:30) Why are we also in danger every hour?
(1Co 15:31) Day by day I die, by your boasting, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(1Co 15:32) If according to man I fought with beasts in Ephesus, what is the profit to me if the dead are not raised? ("Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.") Isa. 22:13
(1Co 15:33) Do not be led astray; bad companionships ruin good habits.
(1Co 15:34) Be righteously awake, and do not sin; for some have ignorance of God. I speak to your shame.
(1Co 15:35) But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?
(1Co 15:36) Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(1Co 15:37) And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain, (it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest),
(1Co 15:38) and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body.
(1Co 15:39) Not every flesh is the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.
(1Co 15:40) And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
(1Co 15:41) one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
(1Co 15:42) So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
(1Co 15:43) It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
(1Co 15:44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:45) So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
(1Co 15:46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
(1Co 15:47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
(1Co 15:48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
(1Co 15:49) And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
(1Co 15:50) And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:51) Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
(1Co 15:52) In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
(1Co 15:53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co 15:54) But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8
(1Co 15:55) "O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" Hos. 13:14
(1Co 15:56) Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law;
(1Co 15:57) but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
(1Co 15:58) So that, my beloved brothers, you be firm, immovable, abounding in the work of the Lord always, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.
My question is not concerning the resurrection, but the second coming all of christianity talks about, including the rapture, pretribulatiion, postribulation, literal 7 years and what not that goes along with His second coming. Same thing they are all looking for some antichrist to come prior to this. Just seems to be way too much confusion.
Most scriptures I have found do not back up what modern day christianity professes, concerning the second coming, but that He has come and is in us now.
Maybe I am way off track, but I know of a surety that He has come and is in me now, this I can not deny.
God bless,
Gary
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I wasn't speaking towards you specifically, Orion, but in general.
However; as far as I've studied I've always thought that Christs return would in fact initiate the resurrection. So if Christ is here NOW then where's the resurrection?
I though the Holy Spirit was only a DEPOSIT...a SEAL...for the age to come.
EDIT:
I have always looked at it from this perspective. As of right now we are cocooned. Christ is manifested in us, and then when the time comes He will burst from us like a catepillar comes from its covering and then His wings will spread.
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2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
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I know it was not meant for me specifically, Origen II. This subject at hand can go very deep and there are lots of misconceptions that we have been taught our whole lives.
I can only speak for what God has graciously shown me. The baptism of His Spirit was one of full immersion for me. Words can not describe it, seems unlawful to talk about it. When the scriptures speak of Christ in us, believe them, for He literally through the Spirit is. I have spoke too much of this subject. Through experience it is best for me, not to speak of such things. They are too wonderful and true for me to put into words, oftentimes bringing misunderstandings and bitter persecutions from people who perceive I am better than they. This is far from the truth.
Although, I must admit the carnal side yearns to be able to openly converse in this subject. Then again, there are some things best kept between ourselves and God.
God bless,
Gary
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Just for clarity purposes, I do not think the resurrection is past. It is my hope, a pillar of the faith from God.
God bless,
Gary
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In all their 1000's of pages of writings, neither Ray nor Mike can give a simple clear answer, WHY, because they don't have the slightest damn idea. What they are very clever at doing in their e-mails when such a GENERAL question like this is asked them, is confuse the crap out of all who read it by giving scripture after scripture, after scripture, but yet not answering the question. For two men to claimed to be so spiritually superior to all of mankind, show me then where they give an answer to the question asked on this post, and then explain it in LAYMANS terms, and cut out all this trying to impress people with how many scriptures you can type in ONE post. Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
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Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
Longhorn,
Yes..........Is that simple enough?
:D
Craig
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2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Where did anyone say Jesus was past? :lol:
He bore our sins (in what was) ONCE and for all, and THAT alone is past. He (who IS the Resurrection) is He who was (once for sin) IS and always will be, He never changes. :D
He hath delivered us from so great a death, who doth deliver, and will yet deliver.
Peace
Daniel
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2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Where did anyone say Jesus was past? :lol:
He bore our sins (in what was) ONCE and for all, and THAT alone is past. He (who IS the Resurrection) is He who was (once for sin) IS and always will be, He never changes. :D
He hath delivered us from so great a death, who doth deliver, and will yet deliver.
Peace
Daniel
Not sure what you're asking there bro. I see some confusion in lilitalianboy's heart concerning the second advent of Christ and the ressurection of the dead. I'm not directing the scripture quote towards anyone specific. Just showing that the ressuriction hasn't happened yet and awaits the coming of our Lord to sound the trumpet.
Peace,
Andy
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Craig, was your answer yes to Lilit...first question? Is Jesus coming back to earth fleshly???
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In all their 1000's of pages of writings, neither Ray nor Mike can give a simple clear answer, WHY, because they don't have the slightest damn idea. What they are very clever at doing in their e-mails when such a GENERAL question like this is asked them, is confuse the crap out of all who read it by giving scripture after scripture, after scripture, but yet not answering the question. For two men to claimed to be so spiritually superior to all of mankind, show me then where they give an answer to the question asked on this post, and then explain it in LAYMANS terms, and cut out all this trying to impress people with how many scriptures you can type in ONE post. Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
Ouch Longhorn take it easy my friend. No need for such harsh words, they have been granted insight, but like everyone else they don't know it all. I'm not sure if Ray and mike Think of themselves so highly but i did read rays comment to mike about them being the only to mature ones to discern such things, that was alittle out of plac eif you ask me but we all make mistakes. God forgive them, and us, and God will we are not led astray.
This is a very difficult subject, I do not think msyelf the ressurection is passed, or that it won't happen. But like Orien i know Christ in us NOW, so that is my confusion, He is with us now, He has returned yet if He actualy does not return physicaly then i guess the Dead will never hear that trumpet huh? Which i don't think is the case but this is why my question has been brought forth.
I am confused on this point, as much as anyone else i think, God give your flock some insight Lord and let us not be led astray. Amen.
God bless,
Alex
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2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Where did anyone say Jesus was past? :lol:
He bore our sins (in what was) ONCE and for all, and THAT alone is past. He (who IS the Resurrection) is He who was (once for sin) IS and always will be, He never changes. :D
He hath delivered us from so great a death, who doth deliver, and will yet deliver.
Peace
Daniel
Not sure what you're asking there bro. I see some confusion in lilitalianboy's heart concerning the second advent of Christ and the ressurection of the dead. I'm not directing the scripture quote towards anyone specific. Just showing that the ressuriction hasn't happened yet and awaits the coming of our Lord to sound the trumpet.
Peace,
Andy
Sorry Andy, I was trying to find where someone said the Resurrection was past. I couldn't find where Alex had said that.
He just has honest questions, as Craig said, no one has given him a straight answer. I wont either thats why I answered my post the way I did. I think its best taught by God to Alex. God is certainly not deaf to Alex or unable he's just working it through.
But wars will start over the very subject even when you don't see the Resurrection as past. Others get offended.
Best to keep the mystery of the faith to yourself before the Lord with a good conscience.
Peace
Daniel
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Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
Longhorn,
Yes..........Is that simple enough?
:D
Craig
Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?
How can you both speak that way?
Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?
Daniel
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if we want to know about the second coming of Jesus, we should look at how prophecy pans out...and especially with regards to the Feasts, Holy Days and Rituals of Israel...
Jesus already fulfilled the Spring Feasts ie Passover & Pentecost
What is still outstanding is the Autumn Feasts...Feast of Trumpets, the Wave Sheaf offering and the Feast of Tabernacles
to explain a bit of the above:
Passover
in the OT Israel slaugtered the Passover lamb and its blood was put on their lintels as protection against the Angel of Death...Jesus fulfilled this feast by becoming the Passover Lamb Himself...His blood delivering us from the Angel of Death
Pentecost
This feasts was celebrated to commemorate the occasion when God came down to His people...they were too scared of Him to receive His fullness, and thus He gave them the Law...a downpayment of greater things to come...Jesus fulfilled this feast when God came to the people again, but this time the 120 in the upper room was not scared and received the Holy Spirit...
also, the Day of Atonement and the Leper cleansing rituals also prophecy on the two works of Christ
take the Leper cleansing ritual as example...
after a leper was healed...he had to take two doves to be offered by the High Priest and present himself
one dove was killed in an earthen vessel under running water, and the second dove was smeared across its back with the blood of the first dove...and set free...after all this happened, the leper was annointed with oil
now...the first dove obviously refers to the first work of Christ (the death work) and the second dove to His second work (the life work)
Scripture also refers to the coming of Jesus again with "His robe dipped in blood"...as it does to Joseph's coat (who is a pattern of Christ)
Scripture speaks of the whole creation groaning for the manifestations of the sons of God and also that at the coming of the Lord (again), the dead overcomers will be raised and the living overcomers will be changed like as in a twink of an eye...this wil be the time when the overcomers will be like Jesus...immortal and full of the Holy Spirit and have the same mind and heart as Christ...
the overcomers will meet Christ "in the air" as to welcome Him back to earth...the 1000 year mellenium will start and the prohecies of Joel, Jeremiah and Ezekiel will be fulfilled as the whole earth will then start knowing the righteosness of God...being taught and revealed by the Christ ruling company
this I beleive will occur sometime in the future with the Feast of Trumpets ( the 7th trumpet will sound and the dead overcomers will be raised)...as well as during the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles...when the Holy Spirit it its fullness will come upon the overcomers (not just a "downpaymnet" like Paul said happened at Pentecost)
if anyone is more interested and want to know where I learnt this from, PM me :wink:
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Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
Longhorn,
Yes..........Is that simple enough?
:D
Craig
Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?
How can you both speak that way?
Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
No need to assume you will be banned for questioning anything, all we ask is that disagreements with articles are backed by scripture and that we remain respectful to all of our Brothers and Sisters as we seek His Truth.
There will never be a time in this age where we all agree on everything, sometimes even when there is agreement conflict arises over use or style of language. People can be offended by a tone or manner they are not familiar with, this happens wherever you have people with different backgrounds conferring together.
Someone from a small town, in the deep south may be offended by the fast talking, finger snapping New Yorker who may not mean any harm or insult and a Librarian may be offended by the "take no prisoners" style of communication a Construction Manager might use.
This is where we can learn patience and understanding, not being quick to judge another person's motivation, seeking clarity before accusing.
Daniel, I hope this clears up what you may of been thinking, I have always found you to be respectful and diligent in looking for His treasure,
Joe
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Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
Longhorn,
Yes..........Is that simple enough?
:D
Craig
Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?
How can you both speak that way?
Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?
Daniel
I'm sorry Daniel, I wasn't answering Alex, or you, I was replying to Longhorn.
Did you notice the :D :D
I wasn't trying to be arrogant, sorry that you took it that way.
Craig
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The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.
Origen,
Im fully aware what B-TS teaches and not wish to cross the path, but to assure its not from the Lack of so called spiritual eyes in that I do not Understand what is taught.
Some believe they have spiritual Eyes because they SEE the word Hell fire Not being ET but theres so much More to see than that and for those who as you say spirtualize away the scriptures.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Christ is the Resurrection of LIFE in our Hearts.
Eternal Life is This.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come,and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds, nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and clouds just may mean Messengers.
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Rain is the message clouds are those which carry Rain. yes?
Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb a@@ speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
WITH RESPECT .It just maybe that some here dont have the spiritual eyes they think they Have and jump two quickly in saying the one or two things mentioned on this Thread.
Always two sides to the coin.
Peace.
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Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds, nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and clouds just may mean Messengers.
.
Mercie, where did I say lightning always means lightning or any such thing? I wrote that the clouds in this instance and many others point to the elect, messengers if you will, I invited others to do a word search to verify.
Thanks,
Joe
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Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds, nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and clouds just may mean Messengers.
.
Mercie, where did I say lightning always means lightning or any such thing? I wrote that the clouds in this instance and many others point to the elect, messengers if you will, I invited others to do a word search to verify.
Thanks,
Joe
Joe.
One can veiw the scriptures you gave concerning the resurrection as some Future event or be seen as Being now for the messengers of God.
I added valleys mountains etc as much for the Benift of Origin in the Hope for Him to see the point of My post.
Mentioning some here spirtualize away the scriptures. :D
I ve read Just the latest Thread By Nightmare and was nearly tempted to say WE dont spirtualize Spirtualize the Scriptures away as some may deem it Heresy.
Peace
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I am talking to me first here everyone, that when we are wrong or do not see our understand things quite the way they should be, let us all be humble enough to admit it and if and when we are wrong. And like wise let us show patient to each other when showing those(including myself) that they are not quite right to give a soft answer.
Amen Bobby.
If we can all remember we are Each at at different levels of Understanding knowing we will never all agree on every point .
Not Even Mike or Ray.
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I wasn’t going to post anymore for awhile either, but I got notice of a PM so came to check that… and so read a few threads…. etc, etc, etc…. so much for will-power. :roll:
I will just say this:
What does it mean for MORTAL to “put on� immortality? What does it man for CORRUPTION to “put on� incorruption? Etc.
Yes, without Christ and HIS resurrection we are “dead� (no life in us) and “without hope� and our “faith is in vain�.
Who here has ever said otherwise?
What does the “literal return� of Christ mean? Is His coming in the spirit not a “literal" return?
What does “every eye will see Him� mean? Will they also “perceive� Him?
What does i“He will return in like manner� mean? A “cloud� received Him, right? What does that mean?
He shall see “the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory�. What does that mean?
God will destroy all flesh with “fire from heaven�. Literally true? YES! Literal fire? :shock:
(I thought we didn’t believe in “literal (physical) fire�. Does it sound more “humane� or more “God-like� to believe in a “temporary� literal (physical) fire, then to believe in an “endless� literal (physical) fire? :? )
God is the same “yesterday, today and forever�. Is He destroying any of our flesh with "literal" (physical) fire from heaven? Or is this SPIRITUAL?
Just some questions I started asking myself.
Blessings,
Chrissie
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Simple answer in laymans term is what was asked, and nobody on this forum can do it, that I can promise you.
Longhorn,
Yes..........Is that simple enough?
:D
Craig
Plain arrogance, I dont see either of you helping Alex?
How can you both speak that way?
Craig I know you are Moderator, if I get kicked off for questioning this approach so be it. Then the Lords will be done, my time is up. I'll move on. But how can this be helpful to Alex anyone?
Daniel
I'm sorry Daniel, I wasn't answering Alex, or you, I was replying to Longhorn.
Did you notice the :D :D
I wasn't trying to be arrogant, sorry that you took it that way.
Craig
Craig
Then I would ask you to forgive me brother I was then clearly wrong.
I did not think you were replying to anyone but to longhorn. I had assumed to hear through longhorn (not as much yourself but in "agreement with him"). The whole thing as worded sounded very much like this,
It was as to say, you fools in the undertone (exalting oneself). Yet not helping either. Especially if one had a helpful answer for Alex. I saw (in your response as moderater) agreeing with this same horrid attitude. The being in "agreement" which such an attitude.
All I could think was, "How dare we do this to our own brothers"? Agreeing with such a way about ourselves, not seeing the shame of this way in ourselves.
One thing about Alex is his honest questions and seeking heart. There is not a hint of "know it all" in him. He has a sincerity that seems so plain (to my conscience) and a humility that I find not only rare but precious.
His signiture says it all, "struggling every step of the way". Which is to say to me of him... "assist me, help me, be a brother to me". And please in ones way of speaking (either directly or indirectly) don't tell me how stupid or confused I am. Especially not to one who is walking in humility (as one should be) and has been so gracious.
Its a very different thing when approaching "the proud" in such things and in their ways should be adressed. As both our Lord and Paul did to undo such hypocrisy.
Then Craig I do owe you an apology if that is not how you meant it, and an open apology at that. I do apologize to you Craig. Forgive me brother, I would be wrong then.
And Joe, I appreciate your good words, thank you for being what appears as fair not only as a moderater but as a brother in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Gods blessings on you both, thank you both for being gracious to me of yourselves.
Peace
Daniel
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I wasn’t going to post anymore for awhile either, but I got notice of a PM so came to check that… and so read a few threads…. etc, etc, etc…. so much for will-power. :roll:
I will just say this:
What does it mean for MORTAL to “put on� immortality? What does it man for CORRUPTION to “put on� incorruption? Etc.
Yes, without Christ and HIS resurrection we are “dead� (no life in us) and “without hope� and our “faith is in vain�.
Who here has ever said otherwise?
What does the “literal return� of Christ mean? Is His coming in the spirit not a “literal" return?
What does “every eye will see Him� mean? Will they also “perceive� Him?
What does i“He will return in like manner� mean? A “cloud� received Him, right? What does that mean?
He shall see “the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory�. What does that mean?
God will destroy all flesh with “fire from heaven�. Literally true? YES! Literal fire? :shock:
(I thought we didn’t believe in “literal (physical) fire�. Does it sound more “humane� or more “God-like� to believe in a “temporary� literal (physical) fire, then to believe in an “endless� literal (physical) fire? :? )
God is the same “yesterday, today and forever�. Is He destroying any of our flesh with "literal" (physical) fire from heaven? Or is this SPIRITUAL?
Just some questions I started asking myself.
Blessings,
Chrissie
The most enlightning things set forth in questions that we should all consider. Chrissie, I understand exactly what it is your asking and implying. To these I too agree in "like manner".
Is it not scriptural to see and not perceive? Why does it say, every eye will see Him? Why does it not say every eye will perceive Him? Can he be seen with the eye? Is the definition of faith in the things which can be seen or of Him who cannot be seen?
An "Open face" what does "that mean"? What has "face to face" to do with being like Him unless these things spoken are more revelatory in nature then informational?
Is the Truth more then the "right answer"?
I loved the way you added these Chrissie, beautifully put!
Peace
Daniel
-
I wasn’t going to post anymore for awhile either, but I got notice of a PM so came to check that… and so read a few threads…. etc, etc, etc…. so much for will-power. :roll:
I will just say this:
What does it mean for MORTAL to “put on� immortality? What does it man for CORRUPTION to “put on� incorruption? Etc.
Yes, without Christ and HIS resurrection we are “dead� (no life in us) and “without hope� and our “faith is in vain�.
Who here has ever said otherwise?
What does the “literal return� of Christ mean? Is His coming in the spirit not a “literal" return?
What does “every eye will see Him� mean? Will they also “perceive� Him?
What does i“He will return in like manner� mean? A “cloud� received Him, right? What does that mean?
He shall see “the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory�. What does that mean?
God will destroy all flesh with “fire from heaven�. Literally true? YES! Literal fire? :shock:
(I thought we didn’t believe in “literal (physical) fire�. Does it sound more “humane� or more “God-like� to believe in a “temporary� literal (physical) fire, then to believe in an “endless� literal (physical) fire? :? )
God is the same “yesterday, today and forever�. Is He destroying any of our flesh with "literal" (physical) fire from heaven? Or is this SPIRITUAL?
Just some questions I started asking myself.
Blessings,
Chrissie
Chrissie.
Notice it Only says eye not eyes ?
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
A couple of References to the eye in Job. 8)
why Eye?
Christ is the Light of the wWorld.
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when [thine eye] is evil, thy body also [is] full of darkness
I hope the spirtualizing of the scriptures will not offend you.
Why Pluck out the eye? for it is Full of Darkness?
To Deny Christ are works of Darkness which scripture makes plain what these works are.
The Remainder of the scriptures you have Quoted Hopefully will be answered by the more learned.
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bad grammer to say every eye's.
:shock:
Psa 145:15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man [are] clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
every eye means all eyes.
peace
euty
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[/quote]
Eyes relate to Those who Know Him
Amen
Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Ephes 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Mark 10:52 immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 11:9 If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Pluck out the Eye of Darkness. 8)
Amen.
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When He says every eye, he means every eye. How one sees this is left up to their own searching and understanding according to their measure.
Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden[/u] that they should not know him[/u].
Ephes 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (single eye)
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished :idea: out of their sight.[/u] :!:
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Mark 10:52... immediately he received his sight, and "followed Jesus" in the way.[/u]
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be SINGLE, thy "whole body" shall be full of light.[/u]
John 11:9 ...If any man walk in the day (or in the light), he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.[/u]
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom "the world" cannot receive, "because" it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[/u]
Lord when did we see you? (Did they not see Him?) This is not of condemnation in the sense we see expressed out there. Jesus said, "He who recieved you, receives me, and he that receives me, receives the one who sent me". So when he appeared in like manner did they not see Him? They infact did with their eyes. But on the otherhand did they "perceive Him"?
2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.[/u]
Thus why when He came to his disciples in a "different form" they did not reccognize Him. Their eyes were holden of seeing Him. When they did and "knew Him" He vanished from their sight.
1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.[/u]
John 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.[/u]
Its seeing and "perceiving" by the light, for in His light we see light. The spirit bears another witness. I see John speaking of these very things. We look not at what is seen, that is not regarded as faith or true sight. We are to look at what is not seen, how? By the Spirit He has given us.
Peace
Daniel
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Laughing! :lol: Sorry Mercie we posted nearly the same verses!
I was overposting you on almost the same ones :lol: :oops:
That was interesting :lol:
Peace
Daniel
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amen daniel and mercie.
Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.
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Great stuff Daniel and Mercie!
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
I never seen the importance of this verse before. What an eye opener! :lol:
They "saw" Him before their eyes were opened but when their eyes were opened and they "knew him" He vanished out of their sight.
Amazing!
Andy
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Great stuff Daniel and Mercie!
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
I never seen the importance of this verse before. What an eye opener! :lol:
They "saw" Him before their eyes were opened but when their eyes were opened and they "knew him" He vanished out of their sight.
Amazing!
Andy
Andy.
Dont Those scriptures Just Jump out at you.
Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Faith cometh By Hearing.
Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see:
1Ki 1:48 And also thus said the king, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel, which hath given [one] to sit on my throne this day, mine eyes even seeing [it].
Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation
Amazing it is.
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This came to mind while meditating on Luke24:31
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
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I hope the spirtualizing of the scriptures will not offend you.
Hey mercie!
Do I need to answer that? :lol:
Not at all!! :wink:
Chrissie
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Great stuff Daniel and Mercie!
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
I never seen the importance of this verse before. What an eye opener! :lol:
They "saw" Him before their eyes were opened but when their eyes were opened and they "knew him" He vanished out of their sight.
Amazing!
Andy
Andy.
Dont Those scriptures Just Jump out at you.
Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Faith cometh By Hearing.
Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see:
1Ki 1:48 And also thus said the king, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel, which hath given [one] to sit on my throne this day, mine eyes even seeing [it].
Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation
Amazing it is.
Blessed are your eyes! amen Mercie :D
Heres a few I saw as I read your post. These were quickened to me.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief[/u]: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.[/u]
Job 17:7 Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, and all my members are as a shadow.[/u]
The law having a "shadow" of the good things
Symbolic of?
Ecc 11:10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.[/u]
1Cr 13:8 whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.[/u]
Ephes 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.[/u] :idea:
That which even All knowledge is "in part" and to be "done away" in our experience. Even knowledge itself, for that (even ALL) is in part, until the "perfect COME". Which IS the fulness of the love of God in us, who is our LIFE, JOY and our COMFORT and even to LAUGH
Contast that with this
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[/u]
Isaac means "laughter" I believe.
Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.[/u]
Prov 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, IT maketh RICH, and he addeth NO SORROW to it.[/u]
Though there are two divided messages within the beattitudes, wonderful things hidden! :wink:
Prov 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, YET hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, YET hath great riches.[/u]
2Cr 6:10 As "sorrowful", YET always rejoicing; AS poor, YET making many rich; AS having nothing, and YET possessing all things.[/u]
Prov 23:4 Labour not "to be rich": cease from "thine own wisdom".
Prov 28:32 He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and "considereth not" that poverty shall come upon him.[/u]
Mathew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Ye SAY ye are RICH but ye are poor blind and naked (He only maketh himself out to be)
Luke 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich sent away empty.[/u]
WITHOUT LOVE we are NOTHING. Such simple truths signified everywhere.
Praise be to God!
Peace
Daniel
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Andy That was awesome! You see it! :lol:
Praise the Lord for He is good!
Who has hides these things from the wise and the learned and reveals them unto babes? Makes you wonder!
We have a great God :D
Peace
Daniel
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This came to mind while meditating on Luke24:31
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Act 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Andy.
Nice post. :D
Pauls Blindness was His Pride In the Law.
Job 41:15 [His] scales [are his] pride, shut up together [as with] a close seal.
All those who live by Law need their Eyes Opened to SEE.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
All Men will be made Straight which cometh By Faith
The Blind cant see and The lame and the Crooked can not walk.
Yes the Dead Raised Up.
To be carnally minded is Death.
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Mat 15:31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.
Hbr 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Ecc 1:15 [That which is] crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make [that] straight, which he hath made crooked?
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way [that] they knew not; I will lead them in paths [that] they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Isa 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways [shall be] made smooth;
Job 29:15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet [was] I to the lame.
Pro 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so [is] a parable in the mouth of fools.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
And multitudes more
:D :D
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My eyes are filled with tears of joy!
My heart is full if His peace!
God's spirit is rushing over me!
My ears hear the beautiful song of the Saviour's love!
Rom 11:33 Oh! the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments! and untraceable his ways!
Thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ! I sure needed that! :D
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Amen, I hear you! Rejoicing with you bro!
:lol: 1Titus 1:4 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.[/u]
Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.[/u]
Psalm 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.[/u]
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Psalm 85:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.[/u]
Psalm 35:9 And "my soul" shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
Hearing that joyful sound :D
Peace
Daniel
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Hey guys, i got a question.
After learning many spiritual truths, and i know im no where near the end, just scratching the Tip of the iceberg here ive become slightly confused.
All my days i was taught Jesus would come a second time.
The more and more i read revalations (Which is what i used to Justify His second coming to earth) the more i realize its completely spiritual and has to do with us, His followers. The more i study the more i realize JESUS IS BACK, except He is back in us. As He is, so are we in the world.
So my question is, Is Jesus gonna come back to this fleshy world?
That would bring me to my next question.
I was always taught that when Jesus returns to this Fleshy earth that He would sound a physical trumpet and we would arise from the graves, and those that didn't die would be caught up in the heavens with Him, and He would start His reign on earth. Now like i've said this has become less and less the truth for me the more i learn the fruits of the spirit. So if this isn't the case, when exactly do we rise to our inheritence at the end of days, if Jesus isn't really coming back to this fleshy earth at all?
Thanks for any help and answers in advanced,
God bless,
Alex
Alex
This thread has splintered.
apologies!
This maynot be the answer to your questions but words to encourage you.
Alex.
Speaking firstly on your thoughts of Revelation.
Revelation is Symbolic .
We can not take out from that Book that which we choose to be Literal( physical) and then opt for we then choose to symbolise away which unfortuantely some do.
Ive Read much on what Ray said on seeing with Spiritual eyes and some see more than others .
As we each grow Its at this point where some may Differ , one will see it in the physical maybe the other in the spiritual, it truly does not pay to Debate the point when this occurs as Christ gives the increase to us all in HIS time.
As you you grow in the spiritual Truth of Scripture you will find as you have mentioned a different Understanding to that of what you saw in the Physical( literal).
Rev 1:8
I am the Alpha and Omega . " says the Lord God , who IS and WAS and Will BE.
Jesus is the alpha and omega, or in Hebrew, the Aleph and Tav. Aleph being the first letter represents the birth of all things. Tav (whose symbolic meaning is the cross) is the last letter and represents the completion of all things. Together they represent all the other letter in-between and through which God expressed his truth. The word ‘truth’ in Hebrew is emet. It is comprised of three letters: aleph – mem – tav. As such it represents the alpha and omega (aleph – tav). The letter mem signifies water and is shaped like the womb. meaning, truth must flow and also birth that which is above. The word heaven (H.8064 sha-mayim) is founded on the Hebrew word for water (H.4325 mayim). The letter shin represents fire. So together, heaven rains down fire and water. The two things we are baptised in.
Again it all Depends on how we veiw the scriptures .
Has the comforter Not come? one bearing witness to the Other?
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Psa 16:5 The LORD [is] the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
May God Bless you in your seeking of Greater spiritual Truth and Understanding Alex.
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I hope the spirtualizing of the scriptures will not offend you.
Hey mercie!
Do I need to answer that? :lol:
Not at all!! :wink:
Chrissie
:D
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Great posts here. Many good scripture quoted to make things plainer to understand, yet the Spirit has always attested to these truths, it's good to see it witnessed in the scriptures. Thanks a lot for the help.
God bless,
Gary
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The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.
Origen,
Im fully aware what B-TS teaches and not wish to cross the path, but to assure its not from the Lack of so called spiritual eyes in that I do not Understand what is taught.
Some believe they have spiritual Eyes because they SEE the word Hell fire Not being ET but theres so much More to see than that and for those who as you say spirtualize away the scriptures.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Christ is the Resurrection of LIFE in our Hearts.
Eternal Life is This.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come,and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Joe lightening is Not always Lightening , nor Thunder Thunder , nor clouds clouds, nor Rain rain nor water water , nor rivers rivers , or floods floods , or hail hail , or smoke smoke ,mountains mountains, valleys valleys , and clouds just may mean Messengers.
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Rain is the message clouds are those which carry Rain. yes?
Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb a@@ speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
WITH RESPECT .It just maybe that some here dont have the spiritual eyes they think they Have and jump two quickly in saying the one or two things mentioned on this Thread.
Always two sides to the coin.
Peace.
I just fear that people may take it too far and dismiss the hope of the future because of the Spiritual view.
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(Mat 1:20) And as he was thinking about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord was seen by him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For that in her is generated by the Holy Spirit.
(Mat 3:11) I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
(Joh 3:6) That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
(Joh 3:7) Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.
(Joh 3:8) The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.
(Joh 4:23) But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him.
(Joh 4:24) God is a spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
(Joh 6:63) It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh does not profit, nothing! The Words which I speak to you are spirit and are life.
(Joh 14:17) the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.
(Joh 14:18) I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you.
(Joh 14:19) Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live.
(Joh 14:20) In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you.
(Rom 2:28) For he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
(Rom 2:29) but he is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision is of heart, in spirit, not in letter; of whom the praise is not from men, but from God.
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
(Rom 8:2) For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
(Rom 8:3) For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
(Rom 8:4) so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
(Rom 8:5) For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
(1Co 2:9) according as it has been written, "Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard," nor has it risen up into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those that love Him. Isa. 64:4
(1Co 2:10) But God revealed them to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:11) For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of a man within him? So also no one has known the things of God except the Spirit of God.
(1Co 2:12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(1Co 2:13) Which things we also speak, not in words taught in human wisdom, but in Words taught of the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.
(1Co 15:45) So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
(1Co 15:46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
(1Co 15:47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
(1Co 15:48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
(2Co 3:17) And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
(2Co 3:18) But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord Spirit.
(Phi 3:3) For we are the circumcision, the ones who worship by the Spirit of God, and who glory in Christ Jesus, and who do not trust in flesh.
(1Pe 3:4) but the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible adornment of the meek and quiet spirit, which is of great value before God.
(1Pe 4:6) For to this end also the gospel was preached to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but might live according to God in the Spirit.
Amen, glory to God. If not for Him, I would not have a physical life, if not for Him, I would not of died with Him, if not for Him, I would not know the Spirit, which is life and life more abundant.
God bless,
Gary
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I just fear that people may take it too far and dismiss the hope of the future because of the Spiritual view.
Thanks Origen :D
Sometimes posts are not the best way to convey what we mean.
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Heres a few I saw as I read your post. These were quickened to me.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Job 17:7 Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, and all my members are as a shadow.
The law having a "shadow" of the good things
Symbolic of?
Ecc 11:10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.
1Cr 13:8 whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Ephes 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
That which even All knowledge is "in part" and to be "done away" in our experience. Even knowledge itself, for that (even ALL) is in part, until the "perfect COME". Which IS the fulness of the love of God in us, who is our LIFE, JOY and our COMFORT and even to LAUGH
Contast that with this
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Isaac means "laughter" I believe.
Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Prov 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, IT maketh RICH, and he addeth NO SORROW to it.
Though there are two divided messages within the beattitudes, wonderful things hidden!
Prov 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, YET hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, YET hath great riches.
2Cr 6:10 As "sorrowful", YET always rejoicing; AS poor, YET making many rich; AS having nothing, and YET possessing all things.
Prov 23:4 Labour not "to be rich": cease from "thine own wisdom".
Prov 28:32 He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and "considereth not" that poverty shall come upon him.
Mathew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Ye SAY ye are RICH but ye are poor blind and naked (He only maketh himself out to be)
Luke 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich sent away empty.
WITHOUT LOVE we are NOTHING. Such simple truths signified everywhere.
Daniel.AMEN
This post slipped by.
Ecc 11:10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.
Childhood and youth are futile.
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Job 20:11 His bones are full [of the sin] of his youth, which shall lie down with him in the dust.
Job 36:14 They die in youth, and their life [is] among the unclean.
moving from Youth\servant\ babe\child to Son?
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Act 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.[