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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: OBrenda on December 03, 2008, 02:18:47 PM
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Numbers 31:21
Then Eleazar the priest said to the men of war who had gone to battle, "This is the statute of the law which the LORD has commanded Moses: only the gold and the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin and the lead,
anything that won't burn-must be put through fire in order to make it clean. Then it must also be put through the ritual water in order to take away its sin. Whatever might burn must [only] be put through the ritual water.
"And you shall wash your clothes on the seventh day and be clean, and afterward you may enter the camp."
(http://www.hotprofileplus.com/myspace-graphics/images/Dividers%20(Animated)/Dark/prod_582_16102.gif) (http://www.hotprofileplus.com)
Well Sounds like the "Lake of Fire" purifies not tortures.....entering the camp = Sabath/Rest
Any comments on the gold and the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin and the lead?
Thanks,
Brenda
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Nice find Brenda ;)
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Hi Neighbor.
In other words, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and the lead, are things that can endure fire.
They might melt, but they don't burn away. so the fire is a process of purification, get rid
of the bad and you have the good left. But the clothes, could not endure fire so they were
put through water, (vr.23) It was for purifing from sin. ( Nu.19:9 ). As you know Christ
died for sin so that law is not in effect today.
I don't think you can compare this with the lake of fire.
Just my comment. Hope you are feeling better.
Earl
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Hi Neighbor.
In other words, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and the lead, are things that can endure fire.
They might melt, but they don't burn away. so the fire is a process of purification, get rid
of the bad and you have the good left. But the clothes, could not endure fire so they were
put through water, (vr.23) It was for purifing from sin. ( Nu.19:9 ). As you know Christ
died for sin so that law is not in effect today.
I don't think you can compare this with the lake of fire.
Just my comment. Hope you are feeling better.
Earl
Hi there Earl and welcome...
Could i ask you, to pease explain further ......
"As you know Christ died for sin so that law is not in effect today."
Rodger
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Hey Brenda,
Also a nice find! :D
Hey Earl,
What law is not in effect today?
Antaiwan
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Hi Brenda, hope this pertains..
Psalms 12-6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
I believe 7 times represent perfection.
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Hi Brenda,
I think you have understood this spiritual meaning of this scripture correctly. We all must pass thru the refiners fire (judged and purified), whether now or in the Lake of Fire. And we must wash our clothes in water (Holy Spirit) so that they will be white as snow and can "enter the camp". Numbers 31:21 is a good scripture to remember.
I hope your study on Rev. Ch. 4 is going well. Julie and I look forward to talking with you on Sunday.
Jody
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Earl: I remember sometime ago I worked with a man who was a pentacostal. We were talking and he said that we didn't have to follow the sabath because when Jesus died on the cross The 4th comandment died with Him. Is this something like you said? I then ask this man what about the other 9? if Jesus did away with the 4th when He died why should we obey the rest of the comandments? He gave me some B.S. and I let it go. My belief is Jesus said not one jolt or dot should not be changed. I got go with Jesus. Just in case I better try real hard to keep all 10 comandments.
Darren
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I'm guessing here but it maybe the animal sacrifice/purification part of the old Law for sin that we no longer practice that Earl was commenting on? { I'm feeling better, thanks for asking Earl :) }
Thanks Jackie Lee: I was also seeing this one pertain to the metals, which is why I see it line up with the LOF & our Judgement now for the called as Jody pointed out!
1 Corinthians 3:11
After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus the Messiah.
Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day of judgment will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
................................................................................
If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
................................................................................
There are many who are more advanced in the symbolism that may understand the different metals & if they represent a deeper or detail of the meaning to our workmanship?
Back at you Jody & Julie...looking forward to it! ;)
Thanks for all the comments,
Brenda
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Hi Neighbor.
In other words, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and the lead, are things that can endure fire.
They might melt, but they don't burn away. so the fire is a process of purification, get rid
of the bad and you have the good left. But the clothes, could not endure fire so they were
put through water, (vr.23) It was for purifing from sin. ( Nu.19:9 ). As you know Christ
died for sin so that law is not in effect today.
I don't think you can compare this with the lake of fire.
Just my comment. Hope you are feeling better.
Earl
Hi there Earl and welcome...
Could i ask you, to pease explain further ......
Rodger.
Read Brenda's post again; " Then it must also be put through the ritual water in order
to take away it's sin.". This was a statute for the children of Israel. Nu.19:10. It was for
purifying from sin. v.9. We are not under that law today, it has no effect on us today.
Now, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. 1st John 1:7 Does that help?
Earl
"As you know Christ died for sin so that law is not in effect today."
Rodger
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Hey Brenda,
Also a nice find! :D
Hey Earl,
What law is not in effect today?
Antaiwan .
Antaiwan;
Nu.19:1, " Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying.
This is the ordinance of the LAW which the Lord commanded ,saying SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN
OF ISRAEL.
Earl
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From Rays, The Sermon on the Mount is for you
"Again, ye have heard that it has been said by them of old time, You shall not forswear yourself, but shall perform unto the Lord YOUR OATHS: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL" (Matt. 5:33-34).
Here is another:
"Ye have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you, love your enemies..." (Matt. 5:43-44).
Did Christ contradict the law? No
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
We need to really understand and know as Paul did when he said: "For we KNOW that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL..." (Rom. 7:14). And just how did Paul "know" this? Because of the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments which were the main part of the Law of Moses, and the Old Covenant (Deut. 4:13). "...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law [what law?]: for I had not known lust, except the law [which law?] had said, 'THOU SHALT NOT COVET'" (Rom. 7:7). Oh THAT law. That would be the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:17).
Of course I have said and have written for many years now that the Ten Commandments of God are spiritual. And I have explained that it is this 10th commandment that is the absolute proof. The 7th commandment already said to not commit adultery, and the 8th commandment already said to not steal, but then the last and 10th commandment says in effect, "...and don't even THINK about it!"
Isn't this exactly what Jesus is teaching when He says that the commandment said to not commit adultery, be He then said we are not to even THINK ABOUT lusting after another woman with impure sexual thoughts?
This whole Sermon on the Mount is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught before, and the accompanying Judgments if one does not live up to these standards.
There was and is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses. God calls it "MY law."
The problem was never with the Law, but with the people:
"O that there were such an HEART in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always..." (Deut. 5:29).
The problem was never with God's Law, but with the peoples' heart-they were carnal, and when one is carnal, he cannot keep a "spiritual" law:
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:6-7).
And here is absolutely proof that there needed a change in the Covenant, not in the LAW OF THE COVENANT:
"For if that first covenant ['covenant,' not law] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For FINDING FAULT WITH THEM, He said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT [not a New Law] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... For this is the covenant that I will make... I will put my LAWS [same old laws-but new covenant] into their MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS..." (Heb. 8:7-9)
Hope this helps
Antaiwan
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Love it! Perfect symbolic OT reference of the LOF/purification. Thanks for posting that.
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Earl: I remember sometime ago I worked with a man who was a pentacostal. We were talking and he said that we didn't have to follow the sabath because when Jesus died on the cross The 4th comandment died with Him. Is this something like you said? I then ask this man what about the other 9? if Jesus did away with the 4th when He died why should we obey the rest of the comandments? He gave me some B.S. and I let it go. My belief is Jesus said not one jolt or dot should not be changed. I got go with Jesus. Just in case I better try real hard to keep all 10 comandments.
Darren
Darren, NO!
That is NOT something like I said.
I too believe we should keep all 10 Commandments.
Earl
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From Rays, The Sermon on the Mount is for you who are you referring to?
"Again, ye have heard that it has been said by them of old time, You shall not forswear yourself, but shall perform unto the Lord YOUR OATHS: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL" (Matt. 5:33-34).
Here is another:
"Ye have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you, love your enemies..." (Matt. 5:43-44).
Did Christ contradict the law? No you are correct.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
We need to really understand and know as Paul did when he said: "For we KNOW that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL..." (Rom. 7:14). And just how did Paul "know" this? Because of the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments which were the main part of the Law of Moses, and the Old Covenant (Deut. 4:13). "...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law [what law?]: for I had not known lust, except the law [which law?] had said, 'THOU SHALT NOT COVET'" (Rom. 7:7). Oh THAT law. That would be the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:17).
Of course I have said and have written for many years now that the Ten Commandments of God are spiritual. And I have explained that it is this 10th commandment that is the absolute proof. The 7th commandment already said to not commit adultery, and the 8th commandment already said to not steal, but then the last and 10th commandment says in effect, "...and don't even THINK about it!"
Isn't this exactly what Jesus is teaching when He says that the commandment said to not commit adultery, be He then said we are not to even THINK ABOUT lusting after another woman with impure sexual thoughts?
This whole Sermon on the Mount is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught before, and the accompanying Judgments if one does not live up to these standards.
There was and is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses. God calls it "MY law."
The problem was never with the Law, but with the people:
"O that there were such an HEART in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always..." (Deut. 5:29).
The problem was never with God's Law, but with the peoples' heart-they were carnal, and when one is carnal, he cannot keep a "spiritual" law:
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:6-7).
And here is absolutely proof that there needed a change in the Covenant, not in the LAW OF THE COVENANT:
"For if that first covenant ['covenant,' not law] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For FINDING FAULT WITH THEM, He said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT [not a New Law] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... For this is the covenant that I will make... I will put my LAWS [same old laws-but new covenant] into their MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS..." (Heb. 8:7-9)
Hope this helps
Antaiwan
Lev.7:11, Is this law in effect today? NO
Lev.7:37, Is this law in effect today? NO
Lev.14:32, Is this law in effect today? NO
There were many laws in effect for the children of Israel back then, that is not in effect for us today.
The law, and the 10 Commandments, are two different things. Ex.24:12.
This is what I believe. Earl
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Earl: I remember sometime ago I worked with a man who was a pentacostal. We were talking and he said that we didn't have to follow the sabath because when Jesus died on the cross The 4th comandment died with Him. Is this something like you said? I then ask this man what about the other 9? if Jesus did away with the 4th when He died why should we obey the rest of the comandments? He gave me some B.S. and I let it go. My belief is Jesus said not one jolt or dot should not be changed. I got go with Jesus. Just in case I better try real hard to keep all 10 comandments.
Darren
Darren, NO!
That is NOT something like I said.
I too believe we should keep all 10 Commandments.
Earl
Earl
Interesting to say the least.... One question if i may,
How will you keep the Sabbath Day Holy ?? the conditional is Spirit.
Any shape or from of keeping the 10 commandments by the Literial Dead ink, is not keeping the 10 commandments in Spirit. Anything we have been tought previously by the church of man's indoctrination is DEATH.
Rodger
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Falconn003
How will you keep the Sabbath Day Holy ??
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.0.html
1Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
v. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
v. 6 And these things were our examples, that we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
v. 7 Nor should we be idolaters, even as some of them, as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
v. 8 Nor let us commit fornication, as some of them fornicated, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
v. 9 Nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted Him and were destroyed by serpents.
v. 10 Nor murmur as some of them also murmured and were destroyed by the destroyer.
v. 11 And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our admonition…
Those that did this, they never entered into God’s rest. They never learned what this was all about.
Heb 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest a promise being left of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to have come short of it.
So this whole thing of coming out of our life - coming out of carnality - coming out of religiosity is like coming out of darkness into the light and that light will give you peace or rest. You have to rest or cease your works and that is what this verse says, which concludes in Heb. 4:10. Now let’s look at verse 3.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into rest…
There it is.
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Lev.7:11, Is this law in effect today? NO
Lev.7:37, Is this law in effect today? NO
Lev.14:32, Is this law in effect today? NO
There were many laws in effect for the children of Israel back then, that is not in effect for us today.
The law, and the 10 Commandments, are two different things. Ex.24:12.
This is what I believe. Earl
Lev 7:11 And this is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which he shall offer unto the LORD.
Lev 7:12 If he offer it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the sacrifice of thanksgiving unleavened cakes mingled with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and cakes mingled with oil, of fine flour, fried.
Lev 7:13 Besides the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offerings.
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the LORD, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.
Lev 7:15 And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning.
Lev 7:16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:
Lev 7:17 But the remainder of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
Lev 7:18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.
Lev 7:19 And the flesh that toucheth any unclean thing shall not be eaten; it shall be burnt with fire: and as for the flesh, all that be clean shall eat thereof.
Lev 7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 7:21 Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 14:32 This is the law of him in whom is the plague of leprosy, whose hand is not able to get that which pertaineth to his cleansing.
Lev 14:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Lev 14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
Lev 14:35 And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
Lev 14:36 Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
Lev 14:37 And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
Lev 14:38 Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
Lev 14:39 And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
Lev 14:40 Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
Lev 14:41 And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
Lev 14:42 And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
Lev 14:43 And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath
Lev 7:37 This is the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings;the house, and after it is plaistered;
Lev 14:44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
Lev 14:45 And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.
Lev 14:46 Moreover he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 14:47 And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
Lev 14:48 And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
Lev 14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Lev 14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
Lev 14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
Lev 14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
Lev 14:53 But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
Lev 14:54 This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall,
Lev 14:55 And for the leprosy of a garment, and of a house,
Lev 14:56 And for a rising, and for a scab, and for a bright spot:
Lev 14:57 To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.
The is law Spiritual
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
In Christ we are free from the law
In Christ we are dead to the law
In Christ we are delivered from the law
In Christ we are even loosed from the law
but the law is not dead or non "effect" as you say.
It seemed to be effective for Paul pretty deeply:
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Can you please explain the difference between the Law and the Ten Commandments?
Antaiwan
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Lev 14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Lev 14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
Lev 14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
Lev 14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
Lev 14:53 But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
I could not help but notice that there are quite a few words here that would show the above verses to be not only Mosaic/Priest Laws but more importantly a prophecy of Jesus Christ and the work He would perform.
Check this out;
Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and it abode upon him.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Isn't the leprosy being cured/healed be true on a spiritual level as well? The cleansing first of certain individuals and ultimately the church as well?
Just some thoughts that occurred to me as I read this.
Peace,
Joe
P.S. As a sidenote I wonder if Lev 14:52 is telling us that the cross was cedar? I know the type of wood used has been debated for centuries and it is certainly not as important as what the cross represents and accomplished.
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Earl: I remember sometime ago I worked with a man who was a pentacostal. We were talking and he said that we didn't have to follow the sabath because when Jesus died on the cross The 4th comandment died with Him. Is this something like you said? I then ask this man what about the other 9? if Jesus did away with the 4th when He died why should we obey the rest of the comandments? He gave me some B.S. and I let it go. My belief is Jesus said not one jolt or dot should not be changed. I got go with Jesus. Just in case I better try real hard to keep all 10 comandments.
Darren
Darren, NO!
That is NOT something like I said.
I too believe we should keep all 10 Commandments.
Earl
Earl
Interesting to say the least.... One question if i may,
How will you keep the Sabbath Day Holy ?? the conditional is Spirit.
Any shape or from of keeping the 10 commandments by the Literial Dead ink, is not keeping the 10 commandments in Spirit. Anything we have been tought previously by the church of man's indoctrination is DEATH.
Rodger
Hello Rodger.
As to your question," How will you keep the Sabbath Day Holy??"
I will no doubt write some things you already know, and have read many times, and I hope what I write does not
offend you, That is not my intention, I am just answering your question, and this is my conviction.
I don't think any one can make any thing Holy, only God can do that. Which He did to the Sabbath Gen.2:3,
" Then God blessed the seventh day and sancitified ( made holy ) it." webster's dictionary .
and Ex.20:11, " Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed ( to make Holy, to set apart for
religious use ) it. Webster again.
God set apart the Sabbath Day, and He made it Holy and He commanded us to keep it that way by not
working on His day. God made the Sabbath for all mankind. Mk.2:27.
Deu. 12:14. "Six days you SHALL labor and do all your work.
What God makes Holy, I don't think anyone can make it unholy, (if that's the right word) but man can
pollute it. In this case working on His Sabbath.
This is just my opinion, as I am doing what Paul said in Philippians 2:12. " work out your own salvation
with fear and trembling".
Rodger, I still love people if they keep Gods Sabbath or not, That is their business. but like I said
this is my conviction. Hope this answers your question.
Have a great week.
Earl.
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Hi Earl,
I used to believe as you did in regard to the physical Sabbath, I didn't keep it very often or very successfully but I did believe that the 7th Day was significant and was still in effect, now I see it as a shadow of what was to come, our rest is in Christ, He is our Sabbath, the Lord of the Sabbath!
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Here is an email to Ray from a while back, Ray's comments are in red;
I absolutely agree with you on almost everything!, but I’d like to know how you can get past the Sabbath?
How do you spiritualize away the Sabbath?
COMMENT: I do NOT "spiritual away the Sabbath." Besides, if something is "spiritualized" it will not go away, seeing that the natural is temporary, but the spiritual is lasting (II Cor. 4:18).
How do you spiritually do all your work in six days and spiritually rest on the seventh?
COMMENT: Your statements proves that you do not understand the "spiritual rest" of the Sabbath day at all. The Sabbath pictures rest (actually and literally to "stop working"). What good is the physical sabbath for people who NEVER stop working. Not only do they do their "works of the law" during the week, but they actually do their "works of the law" on the Sabbath which pictures them STOPPING THEIR OWN WORKS! When you do you "work of the law" by KEEPING the physical Sabbath, you BREAK the spirit of the Sabbath which is to STOP YOUR WORKING AND LET GOD WORK IN YOU.
Therefore, when people as me if I keep the Sabbath I always answer by saying, "YES, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK." As long as you are doing YOUR work on the Sabbath, you will never "ENTER INTO GOD'S REST" (Heb. 4).
I believe the LUNAR SABBATH should be kept.
COMMENT: You are not alone, Johan. Paul had many people who rejected the Gospel by being the same thing: "Ye observe days and months [month means MOON], and times, and years (Gal. 4:10). Paul could no more persuade them in his day to give up the physical and obey the spiritual (John 6:63), than I am able today. If people can't DO SOMETHING PHYSICAL THEY DON'T FEEL SPIRITUAL. That's just the way it is. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the NEW MOON [as you are now trying to instruct me as necessary], or of the SABBATH DAYS [as you are also accusing me of 'spiritualizing away the Sabbath']" (Col. 2:16).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4974.0.html
Peace,
Joe
-
Joe thnx for your reply, as i kind bowed out of this thread.
And this is what like minds of Spirit are in agreement.
It is the uncertainty of the carnal mind that questions everthing into oblivion. ;D
Thnx for your explaination Earl, and hope to discuss other insights with you and everyone else on future threads :)
Rodger
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Hi Earl,
I used to believe as you did in regard to the physical Sabbath, I didn't keep it very often or very successfully but I did believe that the 7th Day was significant and was still in effect, now I see it as a shadow of what was to come, our rest is in Christ, He is our Sabbath, the Lord of the Sabbath!
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Hello Joe,
Thankyou for providing that Email response by Ray regarding the Sabbath showing the distinction
the Physical and the Spiritual application of the Sabbath. That reaffirms my previous understanding,
but more importantly presents a simplicity in the way it was explained to that Emailer.
Thanks Again, Samson.
Here is an email to Ray from a while back, Ray's comments are in red;
I absolutely agree with you on almost everything!, but I’d like to know how you can get past the Sabbath?
How do you spiritualize away the Sabbath?
COMMENT: I do NOT "spiritual away the Sabbath." Besides, if something is "spiritualized" it will not go away, seeing that the natural is temporary, but the spiritual is lasting (II Cor. 4:18).
How do you spiritually do all your work in six days and spiritually rest on the seventh?
COMMENT: Your statements proves that you do not understand the "spiritual rest" of the Sabbath day at all. The Sabbath pictures rest (actually and literally to "stop working"). What good is the physical sabbath for people who NEVER stop working. Not only do they do their "works of the law" during the week, but they actually do their "works of the law" on the Sabbath which pictures them STOPPING THEIR OWN WORKS! When you do you "work of the law" by KEEPING the physical Sabbath, you BREAK the spirit of the Sabbath which is to STOP YOUR WORKING AND LET GOD WORK IN YOU.
Therefore, when people as me if I keep the Sabbath I always answer by saying, "YES, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK." As long as you are doing YOUR work on the Sabbath, you will never "ENTER INTO GOD'S REST" (Heb. 4).
I believe the LUNAR SABBATH should be kept.
COMMENT: You are not alone, Johan. Paul had many people who rejected the Gospel by being the same thing: "Ye observe days and months [month means MOON], and times, and years (Gal. 4:10). Paul could no more persuade them in his day to give up the physical and obey the spiritual (John 6:63), than I am able today. If people can't DO SOMETHING PHYSICAL THEY DON'T FEEL SPIRITUAL. That's just the way it is. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the NEW MOON [as you are now trying to instruct me as necessary], or of the SABBATH DAYS [as you are also accusing me of 'spiritualizing away the Sabbath']" (Col. 2:16).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4974.0.html
Peace,
Joe
-
Lev 14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Lev 14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
Lev 14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
Lev 14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
Lev 14:53 But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
I could not help but notice that there are quite a few words here that would show the above verses to be not only Mosaic/Priest Laws but more importantly a prophecy of Jesus Christ and the work He would perform.
Check this out;
Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and it abode upon him.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Isn't the leprosy being cured/healed be true on a spiritual level as well? The cleansing first of certain individuals and ultimately the church as well?
Just some thoughts that occurred to me as I read this.
Peace,
Joe
P.S. As a sidenote I wonder if Lev 14:52 is telling us that the cross was cedar? I know the type of wood used has been debated for centuries and it is certainly not as important as what the cross represents and accomplished.
Great post Joe,
There are so many symbols in law that point to Christ. I'm glad they all represent Christ!!
I remember Marques told me he would like to list them all.
What an exhaustive task!!
There is so much wisdom in the use of figures of speech, God is wise indeed.
I agree Samson, Great email response by Ray
Antaiwan
-
I just wanted to add my two cents worth here.
For all of you guys that are relatively new to all of this, I don't want to step on your convictions.
I know it feels like that sometimes. :-\
For me, I understand convictions. I have had SO many over the 18 years I've been a Christ follower. I don't doubt for a moment that my past convictions were from the Lord even though I may not hold them any longer. I also know that He will continue to mold me as He sees fit in the timing that He knows is best for me. He grows us all at a different pace and reveals things to us at different times. It is part of our uniqueness and it all fits into His plan.
I disagree with someone who posted once recently that if your eyes are not open to BT truths then you aren't walking with the Spirit. I have only had my eyes opened to these wonderful truths for less than a year but the Spirit of God has been directing my steps and ALL OVER our lives for long before He opened my eyes to these truths.
Now I also have a different understanding of what the Sabbath is (like Joe's and Samson's and Rodger's) and I have a different understanding of a lot of things now that I used to take literally and physically but now see with Spiritual eyes.
I think that once you really get into Ray's work and see just how the Bible is an entire book about Jesus and is a reflection of Him all the way through the Old to the New, you too will find your convictions changing and reshaping and becoming new and better.
Hope I didn't sound uppity. I certainly am not. Just growing with everyone else here in GOD's TIMING and not my own...
Blessings, Lin
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Hello Earl, Rodger, Samson, Antaiwan & Linny,
Thanks for the responses as we attempt to better understand His Word and each other on a higher level. The freedom we have been given in the Lord can be a confusing thing especially if we are trying to figure all this out with our ego or carnal mind, the whole point of our experience in the flesh is to eventually desire (and obtain) the mind of Christ over all else, if we have this, if we truly have this, then doing the will of our heavenly Father will be the fruit of that transformation of our minds.
There would be no need for memorizing a bunch of do's and dont's, obedience and good works would all flow from the Fountain of Living Waters (Christ) within us. Remember, the standard that our Lord set is infinitely higher than the keepers of Mosaic law ever realized or understood (or could ever accomplish), it is not about the physical "stuff" we might do, it is all about "a state of mind." If we have the right (Christ) state of mind the obedience to God's will manifests itself.
Yes we are "free" from the law, but not "free" to live outside it (willfully sinning), we are free from the death sentence (annihilation) the law demands so we (all) can eventually obtain this mind of Christ which is immortal life! The "law" Christ gave us is a spiritual Law that encompasses every thought we embrace, not just the acting out of our (carnal) thoughts.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
There was probably no one who kept Mosaic and Temple laws better and more thoroughly than Saul/Paul, but he described himself as the worst sinner ever, it was not until he recieved the Spirit of Christ that his mind was transformed and he was able to understand and write the following;
Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Phi 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Peace,
Joe
-
I disagree with someone who posted once recently that if your eyes are not open to BT truths then you aren't walking with the Spirit. I have only had my eyes opened to these wonderful truths for less than a year but the Spirit of God has been directing my steps and ALL OVER our lives for long before He opened my eyes to these truths.
Linny I wanted to add a big AMEN! to your entire post especially what is quoted above, very profound and very true. It is God that directs our paths and we are all a unique creation in the Potter's Hands.
Thank you,
Joe
-
I also know that He will continue to mold me as He sees fit in the timing that He knows is best for me. He grows us all at a different pace and reveals things to us at different times. It is part of our uniqueness and it all fits into His plan.
Just growing with everyone else here in GOD's TIMING and not my own...
Blessings, Lin
I'll second Joe's "amen". Beautifully put Linny.
Best.
Gary
-
I also know that He will continue to mold me as He sees fit in the timing that He knows is best for me. He grows us all at a different pace and reveals things to us at different times. It is part of our uniqueness and it all fits into His plan.
Just growing with everyone else here in GOD's TIMING and not my own...
Blessings, Lin
I'll second Joe's "amen". Beautifully put Linny.
Best.
Gary
I'll just have to third that Linny!
I know a dear Sister that I respect and admire who just realized she had been under a teacher who teaches "some heresy" it can be devastating to believe we have "ARRIVED" only to find ourselves still in some error. Wisdom shared by Linny to understand... We are all being led through understanding & knowledge by the Holy Spirit ...{through these different levels of understandings.}
Peace,
Brenda
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All my Brothers & Sisters,
Although my original question was on the LOF and what thoughts/revelations that any had on the "Metals" in this scripture. As the Spirit led this thread to the topic of the Sabbath it is this that I have been struggling with to understand. I have several loved ones that are observing the Sabbath on Saturday physically as a new revelation. I have not been able to give answer to my postion on this. I trust Ray so I have leaned that it is observed in a spiritual way, but thanks to the many posts by all of you, Eureka.....I better understand!
It certainly is precept upon precept......(Ditto to Samson the email by Ray helped allot) :)
Love You Guy's
P.S. Any comments on the metals still welcome?
-
Any comments on the gold and the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin and the lead?
Thanks,
Brenda
Brenda,
I hesitated for a long time responding to this as it is not really covered in the articles but I believe that the metals are consistant in the pattern set forth in the Feasts, Temple (layout), Harvests & livestock.
Gold = Christ
Silver = Elect/Chosen/Remnant
Bronze = Christianity (bronze is a mixture of copper & tin)
Iron, Tin, Lead = Nations/world/unbelievers
We know Christ is the Head, the First in all things and the order of those who follow into the Kingdom (salvation) are represented by different natural/earthly symbols as well as the testimony of the Prophets and the customs of the Jews laid out in the OT.
The following is from LOF Part 4, I believe you will see this pattern demonstrated in what Ray wrote here;
THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL
There is a beautiful type in the Old Testament that clearly demonstrates when and in what manner all these Unsaved masses will be saved. This Old Testament type is illustrated all through the New Testament, but the blind and unperceiving eyes of Christendom have for the most part failed to see it, believe it, or teach it.
The American Heritage College Dictionary: "type n 6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament," p. 1485. There are many such types beginning back in the the first chapter of Genesis.
Here are just two examples: The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually]. For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7). And James 1:18 clearly demonstrates the foreshadowing of the firstfruits harvest by saying: "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND of firstfruits [of the Spring Harvest] of His creatures [not farm products]." It is also important to note that whenever the word "first" is used, it always suggests more to follow -- there is never a Spring harvest without a following Fall harvest. We will now consider three of the Old Testament types that center on the harvest seasons.
In ancient Israel there were three times in the year when all men were to appear before God:
THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).
COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.
THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).
COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.
In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.
THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).
"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that’s just about EVERYONE, wouldn’t you say?]. Seven days [here’s that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God’s grand plan of salvation?
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God’s salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God’s Word will show us.
JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST
The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:
"In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).
At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God’s SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).
And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!
But don’t be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.
So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:
"THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).
First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.
Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God’s Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).
Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:
"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).
NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!
And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God’s master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.
But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God’s family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven’t heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.
According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!
That’s right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God’s Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?
Read the entire article here: http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
Peace,
Joe
-
Wow Sisters and Brothers,
Now i begin to remember this story that has perplexed me for years :o. Thanks for posting this Scripture and
Ray's explanation again Today. Over 25 years ago i had an understanding of this Prophecy that was very close
to Ray's writings but totally bollixed it with the damnable heresy of Christendom.
Brenda, thanks for bringing up the subject that lead me and many others to this Great Declaration Of GOD'S
Word Jesus Christ in the OT. After the pounding of these last few weeks, at last i can again rest for a little
while and reread these stunning Truths with new eyes of understanding.
Love Peace Power Salvation and Understanding,
Holy :-*
george. ;D
Isaiah 11:2:
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Any comments on the gold and the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin and the lead?
Thanks,
Brenda
Brenda,
I hesitated for a long time responding to this as it is not really covered in the articles but I believe that the metals are consistant in the pattern set forth in the Feasts, Temple (layout), Harvests & livestock.
Gold = Christ
Silver = Elect/Chosen/Remnant
Bronze = Christianity (bronze is a mixture of copper & tin)
Iron, Tin, Lead = Nations/world/unbelievers
We know Christ is the Head, the First in all things and the order of those who follow into the Kingdom (salvation) are represented by different natural/earthly symbols as well as the testimony of the Prophets and the customs of the Jews laid out in the OT.
The following is from LOF Part 4, I believe you will see this pattern demonstrated in what Ray wrote here;
THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL
There is a beautiful type in the Old Testament that clearly demonstrates when and in what manner all these Unsaved masses will be saved. This Old Testament type is illustrated all through the New Testament, but the blind and unperceiving eyes of Christendom have for the most part failed to see it, believe it, or teach it.
The American Heritage College Dictionary: "type n 6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament," p. 1485. There are many such types beginning back in the the first chapter of Genesis.
Here are just two examples: The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually]. For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7). And James 1:18 clearly demonstrates the foreshadowing of the firstfruits harvest by saying: "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND of firstfruits [of the Spring Harvest] of His creatures [not farm products]." It is also important to note that whenever the word "first" is used, it always suggests more to follow -- there is never a Spring harvest without a following Fall harvest. We will now consider three of the Old Testament types that center on the harvest seasons.
In ancient Israel there were three times in the year when all men were to appear before God:
THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).
COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.
But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God’s family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven’t heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.
According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!
That’s right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God’s Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?
Read the entire article here: http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
Peace,
Joe
-
Gold = Christ
Silver = Elect/Chosen/Remnant
Bronze = Christianity (bronze is a mixture of copper & tin)
Iron, Tin, Lead = Nations/world/unbelievers
But we have a problem here Joe:
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Dennis
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Hi Dennis,
I certainly would agree if we were to take this literally rather than prophetically. How would we interpret the following?
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this Scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luk 20:17 And he beheld them and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Isn't Jesus comparing Himself to a building stone? We know this is symbolic not to be taken literally, I believe this same principle holds true albeit in different prophetic/symbolic language.
Also, what is Christ saying in regard to "buying gold tried in the fire" isn't anything and everything tied to our salvation rooted in Jesus Christ?
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Perhaps I am totally off base (but it needs to be proven false scripturally) but I see Christ (prophetically speaking) as the gold, the white raiment and the eye salve.
There are many more examples I could give in regard to this.
Peace,
Joe
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wow nice verse.
num 31:21
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exactly Dennis.
the gold, silver and all that, ARE WORKS!!
MAN WORKS!!!
Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
1Co 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Co 3:14 If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
Jesus IS THE ROCK, NOT A MATERIAL, Jesus is the foundation, and you put your works on him.
then they shall be tried
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exactly Dennis.
the gold, silver and all that, ARE WORKS!!
MAN WORKS!!!
Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
1Co 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Co 3:14 If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
Jesus IS THE ROCK, NOT A MATERIAL, Jesus is the foundation, and you put your works on him.
then they shall be tried
Just like to add to your post Carlos:
From Rays Lake of Fire Part One: Physical Fire vs. Spiritual Fire
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
Ah dear readers, can we begin to understand the workings of God? God consumes with fire, the wood, hay and stubble in our lives. The things that don’t deserve to continue. But he REFINES the gold, silver, and precious stones (those doctrines and godly character traits of God’s spirit that abide the fire). It is figurative language, it is an analogy, it is a parable, it is metaphorical (where one thing is called another thing). Our lives have either qualities of character (which are likened to gold and precious stones, things of value to refine and retain), or gross lacks in character (which are likened to wood, hay, and stubble and which are not worthy to retain or preserve).
And just as real literal fire is used to refine and purify gold and precious metals, so God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE refines and purifies us from our sinful and carnal nature. And likewise, as real literal fire is used to burn up wood and stubble, so God’s all consuming SPIRITUAL FIRE will consume and burn up all the impurities in our life. These things MUST DIE. This purging is the SECOND DEATH. And whether the person God subjects to His consuming fire has many good qualities or none, the person himself shall be purged, purified, and SAVED BY GOD’S ALL-CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!! We just read it in God’s Holy Word. How can any deny it? Every person who has ever lived will be subjected to the cleaning fire of God’s spirit.
Wood, Hay, and Straw are burned in the fire(Lake of Fire)
Metals are purified or refined in the fire(Lake of Fire)
Right! He himself shall be saved!
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
I also find these passages intereseting in light of whats to be burned and refined:
Revelations being a book of symbols
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Does anyone else find significance in these passages of scriptrue?
These seem to be all the things burned and refined in the fire(God consuming fire or even by Gods word?)
Hey Joe
I see a lot of symbols similar to these but I have yet to understand there significance or connection to Christ, though I believe they do have a connection!! As I also believe Christ is the very image, substance and reality or all these types and shadows.
There's so many!
I believe sometimes I can't grasp the significance unless I know about a certain symbol such as Gold.
If I didn't know its refined in fire what would it mean to me spiritually speaking. Hope that made sense.
Antaiwan
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Hi Antaiwan,
Being refined is a metaphor for learning obedience to the will of God, who is our example?
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Jesus IS THE ROCK, NOT A MATERIAL, Jesus is the foundation, and you put your works on him.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Hi Carlos,
This language being used is spiritual and symbolic, it is not literal, is Christ really a lamb?
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Is every scriptural reference to lambs speak of Christ? Of course not.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Is Christ a crop to be harvested, is He even every scriptural reference to firstfruits? No & no.
Scripture is full of symbolism and some things refer to the natural others refer to the spiritual many to both, on multiple levels. Gold in the natural is quite different than it's spiritual meaning, just like "lamb" and many, many others.
What is this saying to you?
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
Is this some meaningless bit about expensive and cheap water pitchers in some guy's house? Do you see the same 4 part pattern here as we did in the metals mentioned in Numbers 31:21? The pitchers get progressively cheaper and more bountiful as we go through the list.
Let us all pray for spiritual discernment as we journey together.
Peace,
Joe
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Rodger and Joe,
The only thing i can contribute is to say thanks for the Scriptures and the exposition of them to us.
george. ;D
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What is this saying to you?
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
Is this some meaningless bit about expensive and cheap water pitchers in some guy's house? Do you see the same 4 part pattern here as we did in the metals mentioned in Numbers 31:21? The pitchers get progressively cheaper and more bountiful as we go through the list.
Let us all pray for spiritual discernment as we journey together.
Peace,
Joe
Hey Joe and Rodger Thanks for those scriptures!!
Joe,
Is the scripture your referring to above speaking about the many are called few are chosen?
And,
21And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
22Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
(Then we are speaking of teasures right or good works?)
23Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
(When tried in the fire abide or refined?)
24And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.
(Also are garments are made clean, washed white or pure)
(and then we can enter the camp or the Kingdom of God)
(Am I understanding?)
This scripture seems to reveal Gods purification process!
This is such a great scripture Brenda! Glad you found this!
I love the discussion!
Antaiwan
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lol, obviously it's not literal.
Jesus is a foundation, living according to his law, the law of Christ.
I never said Jesus is a physical foundation, or a physical lamb.
it is the works that are tried in fire.
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1Co 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
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I just wanted to add my two cents worth here.
For all of you guys that are relatively new to all of this, I don't want to step on your convictions.
I know it feels like that sometimes. :-\
For me, I understand convictions. I have had SO many over the 18 years I've been a Christ follower. I don't doubt for a moment that my past convictions were from the Lord even though I may not hold them any longer. I also know that He will continue to mold me as He sees fit in the timing that He knows is best for me. He grows us all at a different pace and reveals things to us at different times. It is part of our uniqueness and it all fits into His plan.
I disagree with someone who posted once recently that if your eyes are not open to BT truths then you aren't walking with the Spirit. I have only had my eyes opened to these wonderful truths for less than a year but the Spirit of God has been directing my steps and ALL OVER our lives for long before He opened my eyes to these truths.
Now I also have a different understanding of what the Sabbath is (like Joe's and Samson's and Rodger's) and I have a different understanding of a lot of things now that I used to take literally and physically but now see with Spiritual eyes.
I think that once you really get into Ray's work and see just how the Bible is an entire book about Jesus and is a reflection of Him all the way through the Old to the New, you too will find your convictions changing and reshaping and becoming new and better.
Hope I didn't sound uppity. I certainly am not. Just growing with everyone else here in GOD's TIMING and not my own...
Blessings, Lin
Hello Lin.
I loved your two cents, and I agree with that.
I was in the WCG for years before 1972, and it took a while before God opened my eyes, to the lies we were
taught,
Now I look at what Joshua said. Jos. 24:22, "as for me and my house we will serve the Lord", and
Gal. 6:4, " let each one examine his oun work, and then he will have rejoicing in himslef alone, and
not in another.
1John 2:27, " But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not
need that anyone teach you."
God Bless you, Be Happy.
Earl
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Numbers 31
21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
Gold and all the other metals/minerals all have to go through the fire to be clean. Our God is this fire, a 'consuming Fire' [Heb 12:29], which makes these items clean. He himself is not one that needs to be cleansed. The gold and other metal/minerals were physical items that the men of battle possessed. 'Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition...[1 Cor 10:11]; and is a shadow for the spiritual/inanimate items we possess that need to be tried/refined in fire [That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:...1 Pet 1:17]
Hebrews 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
While the writer of Hebrews makes reference to Christ's earthly ministry starting in verse 7, the rest of his statement is in reference to before this eon began. Christ became to author of eonian salvation before the foundation of the world [But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you...1 Pet 1:19-20. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the foundation of the world...Rev 13:8] The things He suffered made Him perfect to become the author of eonian salvation. This happened before the foundation of the world or beginning of this eon; not in His earthly ministry.
Revelation 3
8 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As Ray has taught, when Christ spoke to one church in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, He was speaking to all churches. As all churches had the same admonitions against them (synagogue of Satan, defiled garments, being lukewarm, etc) they also were given the same rewards (name in book of life of Lamb, pillar in the temple, sit with me in my throne, etc) for OVERCOMING. The gold tried in fire, white raiment, and eyesalve are the means which Christ gives us to overcome. They are not the actual reward for overcoming, only the means to do so. The eyesalve is spiritual sight and understanding...the white raiment signifies righteousness; as the defiled garments from the parable of the wedding feast (Matt 22:1-14) signified unrighteousness. The proper wedding garment (white raiment signifying righteousness) was only the means to get into the wedding; not the actual wedding (kingdom of heavens) itself. In this same manner, gold tried in fire is the means or method to HOW we overcome and receive our reward. It is not the reward itself however.
2 Tim 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
This great house that Paul is speaking of is the church.
Excerpt from 'Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes' (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm):
VESSELS IN A GREAT HOUSE
Listen carefully, for these prophecies are not directed toward the world of unbelievers, but to the Church of God:
"But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).
Just what is this "great house" of which Paul speaks? Let Paul answer:
"But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the House of God which is The Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15).
The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:
"For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17).
As this 'great house' is the House of God, the vessels themselves are people (many called, few chosen) in this great house. These people possess gold, silver, wood, earth which in turn makes them of honor or dishonor. Those who are chosen will have their gold and silver 'refined' and 'purified' and they shall 'overcome'.
Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
1 Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Love which is the bond (holds all together) of spiritual perfection, and is the greatest of attributes, is being MADE perfect. It is being refined and purified by our God who is a consuming fire. From these and other scriptures, I believe gold is a shadow/type for LOVE. The rest of the metals/minerals from Num 31:21 I believe are also attributes in us (that we possess) that must be cleansed/refined before we can enter the Kingdom.
Thanks,
Marques
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Hey Marques,
This post definitely helps in my understanding!
Much needed addition to the thread.
Antaiwan
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Love which is the bond (holds all together) of spiritual perfection, and is the greatest of attributes, is being MADE perfect. It is being refined and purified by our God who is a consuming fire. From these and other scriptures, I believe gold is a shadow/type for LOVE. The rest of the metals/minerals from Num 31:21 I believe are also attributes in us (that we possess) that must be cleansed/refined before we can enter the Kingdom.
Excerpt from LOF series #3 (http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html):
And so we are assured that EVERYONE will be "revealed," "tried," "salted," and "baptized" "in FIRE." And these fiery trials as Peter calls them go on for a lifetime. If it were real, physical fire, all believers’ lives would be short indeed. God is SPIRIT, and God is a CONSUMING FIRE. It is God’s SPIRIT that is likened to fire. The spiritual teaching in this symbol is to recognize what real fire accomplishes and to then use that as an analogy as to what God DOES TO US (or more properly FOR US).
Fire does a number of things:
1. Fire CHANGES things. Fire brings about molecular changes in the materials that are burned. God’s spiritual fire will make changes in our mind, heart, and spirit.
2. Fire PURGES. In times past if a building were diseased and rat-infested, they would purge away the filth by burning it down. We are to be purged from all our diseases of sin and carnality. Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin for us, but now God wants to get at the root and core of what caused us to sin in the first place. We all need desperately to be CHANGED and PURGED.
3. Fire BURNS UP combustible materials that have no value in saving. God will burn out of all of us the straw, grass, and stubble, which represent evil and wrong doctrines, idols of the heart, and philosophies that exalt themselves against God.
4. Fire PURIFIES things of value which we do want to retain. The analogy is used in the Scriptures of purifying gold by fire to make it more beautiful and more valuable. Gold represents the highest doctrines of spiritual understanding such as the Love of God and the Sovereignty of God, and salvation of all.
No one teaches us more regarding the fiery trials of life than the apostle to the nations, Paul. Paul was "revealed, tried, salted, and baptized" in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE," and yet never a single hair on his head was ever singed.
Well 1 out of 3 is not that bad... :D
Love as well as the Sovereignty of God and the salvation of all represent gold. I am currently reading through the LOF again and am on this particular paper...a little more patience and I could have referenced this section in the previous post. Sorry to jump the gun... :D
Marques
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I thought this might go with what you have brought forth Marques.
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html ------------------------------
STRONG’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 219, #4442, pur; a primary word; "fire" (literally OR FIGURATIVELY. Pur is used (besides its ordinary natural significance):
(1) of the holiness of God, which consumes all that is inconsistent therewith, Heb. 10:27; 12:29; cf. Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 10:1; 15:2; 19:12;
(1a) similarly of the holy angels as His ministers, Heb. 1:7;
(1b) in Rev. 3:18 it is SYMBOLIC of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD;
(2) of the divine judgment, testing the deeds of believers, at the judgment seat of Christ I Cor. 3:13 and 15;
(3) of the fire of DIVINE JUDGMENT upon the REJECTERS of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the holy Spirit at Pentecost and the "fire" of divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Lk. 3:16."
End of quotation, (All CAPS emphasis are mine).
I call your attention to the statement in Strong’s (1b) "In Rev. 3:18 it [fire] is SYMBOLIC, of that which tries the faith of saints, PRODUCING WHAT WILL GLORIFY THE LORD"! (CAPS emphasis mine).
I just love it when Christian Scholars will occasionally just absolutely "nail" a Scriptural Truth. Notice this beautiful and profound Scriptural Truth: The symbolic fire of Rev. 3:18 tries the faith of the saints, and PRODUCES what will GLORIFY THE LORD! ASTOUNDING!
Carefully note that it is not the "believer" who "produces" these glorious things, but it is the "SYMBOLIC FIRE" that produces them. And just Who is this "symbolic fire?" It is, of course, GOD -- "For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)!
Therefore it is GOD who "PRODUCES" qualities in the saints that will GLORIFY HIMSELF! God’s consuming SPIRITUAL fire (remember that "GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24) does the "producing," not the saint,
"For HIS ACHIEVEMENT are we, being created in Christ Jesus ..." (Eph. 2:10).
"Now what have you which you did not OBTAIN? Now if you OBTAINED it also [from GOD] why are you boasting as though [you are] not obtaining [it from God]?" (I Cor. 4:7 Concordant Literal New Testament).
"All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18).
"The One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will" (Eph. 1:11).
Etc.
In statement (1) the editor of Strong’s cites seven more Scriptures that are used symbolically and figuratively to demonstrate "the holiness of God, which CONSUMES ALL that is inconsistent therewith." It doesn’t consume their physical bodies, nor does it burn their physical bodies to produce pain, but it "CONSUMES" all that is not consistent with God’s holiness. And these are the things of the heart, mind and spirit! It is not the "body" that needs chastisement and purification, it is the MIND, HEART, AND SPIRIT that needs purification from unholiness. You cannot burn pride and vanity out of one’s heart with REAL FIRE (besides the advocates of torturing with real fire for all eternity admit that it accomplishes NOTHING). It takes the fire of God’s spirit to burn away evils that have their origin in the realm of spirit.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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"Then you should have STATED that is was SPIRITUAL from the beginning, but Carlos31 you DID NOT."
Who would be stupid enough to say verses are mostly literal???????
99.9% of the time they are spiritual, whats the point in saying they are spiritual? thats super obvious.
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Hey Guys I found this email of Ray's that I would like to add to the disscusion
Read Matt: 13:42 and try that on for size.(This verse is covered in the Judgment of the Wicked thread)
[Ray Replies]
Dear "Onfire4jesus,"
I am not sure what you mean by "try that on for size." Do you not understand this verse and are asking for an explanation?
Many spiritually ignorant people believe that Jesus is saying that He will torture people in a "furnace of fire" for all eternity. I don't know why they think He would do that. Perhaps they think Jesus is a trillions billions times meaner than Saddam's two terrorist sons were.
The Scriptures speak many times about a furnace of fire melting, purifying, and burning off the unwanted dross when refining such metals as silver and gold. In I Cor. 3:12-12 Pauls gives us this same analogy of purifying gold, silver, or precious stones, while burning off the dross of wood, straw, and stubble. But Paul is clearly speaking of PEOPLE'S WORKS being tried and purified in this fire. The result of ALL that go through this purifying fire of God is that THEY ARE ALL SAVED! "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself SHALL BE SAVED, yet so as BY FIRE." There is the wonderful good news about the outcome of God's divine judgments.
And so Jesus also alluded to this endtime judgment of the lake of fire when everyman's work would be tried in the lake of fire (or furnace of fire). And we know just what the fire is, because it purifies as brimstone, which is DIVINE! God HIMSELF IS a "consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). God even prophesied of this purifying fire of judgment back in the book of Malachi. I don't have the time to prove to you from the Bible that "Levi" is representative of ALL HUMANITY, but with that in mind, let's read Malachi 32-3, "But who may abide the day of His coming? and sho shall stand when He appears? for He is like a REFINER'S FIRE, and like fullers' sope: and He shall sit as a REFINER AND PURIFIER [need I even comment that we do not torture or punish silver and gold in a furnace?] of silver: and He shall purify THE SONS OF LEVI, and purge them AS gold and silver, [why? for the fun of torturing them for all eternity? No, read on...] that they may offer unto the Lord an OFFERING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS!
Oh how so many Christians despise these marvelous words of God! God's judgments bring RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT ETERNAL TORTURE! That's SATANIC! God IS righteous and when our Righteous God brings judgment upon the world, they TOO will become righteous! Sure they will. The fires of God's spiritual furnace will PURGE AND PURIFY all mankind. We read of it EVERYWHERE in His Word:
"...For when thy [God's] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD will learn RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).
And so, if I may borrow your words, "TRY THAT ON FOR SIZE"!!
Sincerely,
Ray
"Then you should have STATED that is was SPIRITUAL from the beginning, but Carlos31 you DID NOT."
Who would be stupid enough to say verses are mostly literal???????
99.9% of the time they are spiritual, whats the point in saying they are spiritual? thats super obvious.
Interesting that you would put a percentage to it, Where in scripture is the literal .1%?
Should we rip that portion out from scripture?
Its not obvious to everyone Carlos:
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Some people are actually blind to these spiritual truths, I once was, so were you.
Most do not know their works will be tried by fire but actually believe their flesh will burn in real fire forever.
Pity those who do not know and let patience work her perfect work!
Antaiwan
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I did not say they were literal!!!
stop putting words in my mouth!
you yourself said that I should have mentioned they were spiritual.
I Shake my head, when I see you saying that no scripture is 100% spiritual.
Ignorance...
Does a cat have a tail?
prov 26:5
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anyways, going back to the question.
exactly Dennis.
the gold, silver and all that, ARE WORKS!!
MAN WORKS!!!
Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
1Co 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Co 3:14 If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
Jesus IS THE ROCK, Jesus is the foundation.
every work shall be tried
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Amen
exactly Dennis.
the gold, silver and all that, ARE WORKS!!
MAN WORKS!!!
Whether a person builds on this foundation with gold, silver, expensive stones, wood, hay, or straw,
1Co 3:13 the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.
1Co 3:14 If what a person has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer loss. However, he himself will be saved, but it will be like going through fire.
Jesus IS THE ROCK, NOT A MATERIAL, Jesus is the foundation, and you put your works on him.
then they shall be tried
Just like to add to your post Carlos:
From Rays Lake of Fire Part One: Physical Fire vs. Spiritual Fire
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
Ah dear readers, can we begin to understand the workings of God? God consumes with fire, the wood, hay and stubble in our lives. The things that don’t deserve to continue. But he REFINES the gold, silver, and precious stones (those doctrines and godly character traits of God’s spirit that abide the fire). It is figurative language, it is an analogy, it is a parable, it is metaphorical (where one thing is called another thing). Our lives have either qualities of character (which are likened to gold and precious stones, things of value to refine and retain), or gross lacks in character (which are likened to wood, hay, and stubble and which are not worthy to retain or preserve).
And just as real literal fire is used to refine and purify gold and precious metals, so God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE refines and purifies us from our sinful and carnal nature. And likewise, as real literal fire is used to burn up wood and stubble, so God’s all consuming SPIRITUAL FIRE will consume and burn up all the impurities in our life. These things MUST DIE. This purging is the SECOND DEATH. And whether the person God subjects to His consuming fire has many good qualities or none, the person himself shall be purged, purified, and SAVED BY GOD’S ALL-CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!! We just read it in God’s Holy Word. How can any deny it? Every person who has ever lived will be subjected to the cleaning fire of God’s spirit.
Wood, Hay, and Straw are burned in the fire(Lake of Fire)
Metals are purified or refined in the fire(Lake of Fire)
Right! He himself shall be saved!
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
I also find these passages intereseting in light of whats to be burned and refined:
Revelations being a book of symbols
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Does anyone else find significance in these passages of scriptrue?
These seem to be all the things burned and refined in the fire(God consuming fire or even by Gods word?)
Hey Joe
I see a lot of symbols similar to these but I have yet to understand there significance or connection to Christ, though I believe they do have a connection!! As I also believe Christ is the very image, substance and reality or all these types and shadows.
There's so many!
I believe sometimes I can't grasp the significance unless I know about a certain symbol such as Gold.
If I didn't know its refined in fire what would it mean to me spiritually speaking. Hope that made sense.
Antaiwan
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To take the discussion surrounding Works, to a deeper more personal level note the following:
Every thought, every word, and every deed that proceeds out of the heart and mind of man is his “WORKS.” LOF 6 http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
There is the broad feel good way that leads to error and the narrow uncomfortable way to understanding God. One way leads to knowledge of God, reverent dependence upon Him and the other way leads to feeling good about God having no knowledge of Him. In the words of God 2 Tim 3 : For {although} they hold a form of piety {true religion} they deny and reject and are strangers to the POWER of it {their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession}. Avoid {all} such people {turn away from them}.
Actions speak louder than words and conduct speaks louder than self promotion.
The Power of God is His Sovereignty in that HE will be all in all, not that WE shall be all in all. Our progress to maturity is to understand that our thoughts are not His thoughts and our ways are not His Ways and that this is according to the Plan and Purpose of God who has designed for us into be made into HIS image and not He into our image.
We can see where we are by self examination.
1 Cor 11 ; 31 For IF we searchingly examined ourselves {detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition} we should not be judged and penalty decreed {by divine judgment} But when we {fall short and } are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined and chastened, so that we many not {finally} be condemned to {punishment} with the world.
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God…1 Peter 4:17
Arc
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I've just GOT to step in and clarify something to Carlos31, as I'm afraid he's totally going to miss the point, just as so many in Christendom do when it comes to a "punctuation misunderstanding".
Carlos, Rodger was saying to you: "No Carlos31, but you're almost right, scripture isn't 99.9% spiritual, IT IS 100% spiritual". It's just a matter of interpretation of the words, and you and he really are trying to be on the same page I believe! It's very hard to communicate what we really mean in this venue by just typing, and if we try to look for what we agree on, rather than what we believe are differences, we might find we have a lot more in common than we think. ;)
You took the interpretation of the metals into a different direction than what the thread initially originated about, but one thing I've learned from and appreciate is how Hillsborough River Joe has mentioned that we can notice multiple levels of symbolism that speak to each of us differently. You saw a different level there, and I and others I'm sure can relate.
Thanks to all participants for an interesting thread. I'm sorry if I'm stepping on Rodger's toes, but I appreciate his deep grasp of the spiritual applications of scripture, and don't want his point to have been lost. Thanks Arcturus for your thoughtful input too, very insightful!
Love in Christ,
Vangie
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Thanks Roger,
I see no teaching here, I do see agreement with what Ray and The Scriptures Say. You put this
subject of works of man versus Foundation Of Jesus Christ in stark contrast while making clear
the different quality of each persons works (wood hay stubble vs Silver Gold Precious Stone).
Here are some Scriptures below that we all need to keep remembering:
Galatians 2:16:
Knowing, however, that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, nor at all save through faith in Christ Jesus;
even we, on Christ Jesus, believed, that we might be declared righteous—by faith in Christ, and not by works of law;
because, by works of law, shall no flesh be declared righteous.
Galatians 5:19-21
19-Manifest, however, are the works of the flesh, which, indeed, are—fornication, impurity, wantonness,
20-idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of wrath, factions, divisions, parties,
21-envyings, drunkenness, revellings;—and such things as these: as to which I forewarn you, even as
I have forewarned you,—that, they who such things as these do practise, shall not inherit, God’s kingdom.
Galatians 5:22-26:
22-But, the fruit of the Spirit, is—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, graciousness, goodness, faithfulness,
23-meekness, self-control;—against such things as these, there is no law.
24-And, they who are of Christ Jesus, have crucified, the flesh, with its susceptibilities and covetings.
25-If we live by Spirit, by Spirit, let us also walk.
26-Let us not become vain-glorious,—one another, challenging, one another, envying.
Galatians 6: 1-10
1-Brethren! if a man should even be overtaken in any fault, ye, the spiritual, be restoring such a one, in a
spirit of meekness, looking to thyself, lest, even thou, be put to the test.
2-One another’s burdens, be ye bearing, and, so, fill up the law of the Christ.
3-For, if any one thinketh he is something, when he is, nothing, he deceiveth himself;
4-But, his own work, let each one be putting to the proof, and, then, for himself alone, the matter of boasting,
shall he have, and not for some other,
5-For, each one, his own proper load, shall bear:—
6-Howbeit, let him who is being orally instructed in the word, have fellowship with him that is so instructing him,
in all good things.
7-Be not deceiving yourselves! God, is not to be mocked; for, whatsoever a man soweth, the same, shall he also reap,
8-Because, he that soweth into his own flesh, out of the flesh, shall reap corruption, whereas, he that soweth into
the Spirit, out of the Spirit, shall reap age-abiding life.
9-And, in doing that which is honourable, let us not be fainthearted; for, in due season, we shall reap, if we faint not.
10-Hence, then, as we have opportunity, let us be working what is good, towards all,—but, especially, towards the
family of the faith.
george. :)
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To add to your skillfully crafted post George:
Galations 2 : 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the the Faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
That little "OF" in the above verse speaks VOLUMES to me.
It is not by MY faith that I live. Who owns the Faith of Christ? Who can purchase or earn the Spirit of God or know His Mind. Non can know God or approach Christ unless it is by Christ's appointment that is forordained and forknown. This is what makes the Scripture about self judgment so vital. 1 Cor 11 ; 31 For IF we searchingly examined ourselves {detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition} we should not be judged and penalty decreed {by divine judgment} But when we {fall short and } are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined and chastened, so that we many not {finally} be condemned to {punishment} with the world.
To quote from LOF 6:
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
This Scripture is like the glasses that bring sight to unseeing or dull eyes.
God is the potter and I am the clay. We are all clay! Is clay part of the foundation? (Rhetorical question. ) :)
The purpose and fulfilment of the vessel God is making anyone to be is from clay first ~ either the vessel is being fashioned to His Honour and recognition of Him in all circumstances and events, or the vessel is being made dull and sluggish, even slothful in achieving spiritual insight Heb 5 : 11 to the dishonour of nonrecognition of God working all things to the good for those who love Him.
Those who love God, are getting to know Him and to walk in His Good Works He prepares for us.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.
Arc
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Hi Arc,
Thanks for the Kudos but; It Is All Of GOD In Jesus Christ.
What you have added brings us full circle to the first post here (Sabbath Rest).
Strange but for the last several weeks i have been listening to the audio of all
these topics that keep coming up daily. It would do well for us all to spend more
time learning and listening to the Word as this Food Is Powerful and Calming.
We Cease and Rest In His Finished Work; rather than substituting our own puny workings.
george. :o :)
Here are some excerpts from Ray's Teaching on The Sabbath.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.msg50887.html#msg50887
December 2007 Bible study
KEEPING SABBATH
The Sabbath commandment is the longest of the ten commandments.
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy: Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Lord your God: In it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: Wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it” (Ex. 20:8-11 Concordant).
There is a couple of things I want you to notice about this. This is a long commandment. In verse 9, “Six days shall thou labor…”
In the King James in says, verse 11 “for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth…”
And I don’t think it uses the plural for heaven - heavens. When ever you see heaven in the Old Testament and the New Testament it is almost always plural - heavens. The King James just does not do that. They usually have it singular - heaven.
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen 1:1, King James).
It should be plural, heavens.
But the word “in” that is in Ex. 20:11, “for in six days” that word “in” if you look at it in your King James it’s in italics, because it is not in the Hebrew and it really shouldn’t be there. Sometimes you have to add words because it helps the understanding, but in this case it hinders. Now if it doesn’t make sense or is not proper grammar without it, then you may have to insert it. There are times you need to do that, because languages do not translate word for word or even phrase for phrase. But in this case it is not necessary and it changes the meaning.
So it’s not “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth…and all that in them is” but it should be “For six days the Lord made heaven and earth…” Now that is a giant difference.
>
So “God created the heavens and the earth… all that in them is… for six day” How long were these six days? Were they 24 hour periods?
It was on the seventh day that it said God rested in the King James.
Was that a 24 hour day? If it was, why is He STILL CEASING from His work?
This Scripture says He is. Genesis 2:2 in the Concordant correctly says;
Gen 2:2 And finishing is the Elohim (God), on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does.
So He’s “finishing” it all up in the sixth day and He’s ceasing, that’s the indefinite tense. He was ceasing, is ceasing and will continue to cease. It’s not past tense, like most of the Scripture say. You read those that are aware of this technical difference and you’ll see that it is in the indefinite. It makes all the difference in the world.
>
GOD IS YET CEASING FROM THE WORKS HE COMPLETED
Gen 2:2 And F I N I S H I N G is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His works which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from ALL HIS W O R K which He does.” (Concordant Version)
The works ARE finished and God IS ceasing from all those works of physical creation of the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that in them is.
Now all this ties in with keeping the seventh day, a day of rest. If God is still ceasing from all the works that were finished, He does that on the seventh day.
This still must be the seventh day of God’s ceasing!
We don’t read of anything where God began creating some other part of the physical universe on the eighth day or the ninth day or any such thing, nowhere. We are now into God’s SPIRITUAL creation… making man in God’s very own spiritual image.
The idea behind the seventh day is it represents rest. Israel was told to rest every seventh day of a weekly cycle. But it represents something. It was a law, they had to rest, it’s the forth commandment, it’s a law.
Heb 10:1 For the law (part of the... remember the Sabbath and keep it holy) having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things…
The shadow is not the image itself. So in some ways it’s almost worthless, except it points you to something.
To add to your skillfully crafted post George:
Galations 2 : 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the the Faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
That little "OF" in the above verse speaks VOLUMES to me.
It is not by MY faith that I live. Who owns the Faith of Christ? Who can purchase or earn the Spirit of God or know His Mind. Non can know God or approach Christ unless it is by Christ's appointment that is forordained and forknown. This is what makes the Scripture about self judgment so vital. 1 Cor 11 ; 31 For IF we searchingly examined ourselves {detecting our shortcomings and recognizing our own condition} we should not be judged and penalty decreed {by divine judgment} But when we {fall short and } are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined and chastened, so that we many not {finally} be condemned to {punishment} with the world.
To quote from LOF 6:
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
This Scripture is like the glasses that bring sight to unseeing or dull eyes.
God is the potter and I am the clay. We are all clay! Is clay part of the foundation? (Rhetorical question. ) :)
The purpose and fulfilment of the vessel God is making anyone to be is from clay first ~ either the vessel is being fashioned to His Honour and recognition of Him in all circumstances and events, or the vessel is being made dull and sluggish, even slothful in achieving spiritual insight Heb 5 : 11 to the dishonour of nonrecognition of God working all things to the good for those who love Him.
Those who love God, are getting to know Him and to walk in His Good Works He prepares for us.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.
Arc
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Everyone....I have been truly Blessed, and have grown in my understanding.....
It is God who is Building on a foundation of Faith in Christ.....
Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
................................................................................
To whom he said, This is the rest {Sabbath} with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear...
But the word of the LORD was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
................................................................................
Why hear the word of the LORD ???? , you scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing whip shall pass through, it shall not come to us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
................................................................................
Therefore thus said the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not make haste.
And I {not Man} will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet; and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding-place.
And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge{LOF} shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
................................................................................
Just My thoughts...
Let our "Flesh" not become so easily offended at a challenge to what our understanding is at the moment, that we foolishly believe and defend a lie.
Let us all Love and seek "God's Truth" as more precious than our current truth. It does not come in Haste, God builds a level (our building) the fire comes and burns out the impurities out of the metals, and the illusion of "Our Will/Works" and then when we see what is left, we understand what is false, and the building continues...
This is what I see happening here Spiritually....Yes ????
Peace,
Brenda
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Hi Brenda!
That was beautifully and colorfully said :D
This was a very good thread you started!
Antaiwan
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Hi Brenda!
That was beautifully and colorfully said :D
This was a very good thread you started!
Antaiwan
Thanks....All praise to Him and the wisdom that was shared, I think I'm finnaly being given the eyes to take me to a deeper understanding. Sometimes I will need to reread posts again and again, not always getting the differences in points and counter points of members. When I joined BT I foolishly thought Ahh-haaa....now I understand. Oh well....that's what thinking gets you.
Actually crying with Joy right now.
Brenda
:'(
Hang in there if others are struggling!
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Brenda,
Like you I see a little bit more clearly daily, you knowthe counsel to; Seek ye first The Kingdom Of GOD
And HIS Righteousness And All These Will Be Added to you. Well it is so, even when i feel lonely scared
poor hurt and lost if i am seeking first HIS Kingdom He; Is Adding to me.
Matthew 6:33:
But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.
Romans 14:17:
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Spirit)
george ;D
Hi Brenda!
That was beautifully and colorfully said :D
This was a very good thread you started!
Antaiwan
Thanks....All praise to Him and the wisdom that was shared, I think I'm finnaly being given the eyes to take me to a deeper understanding. Sometimes I will need to reread posts again and again, not always getting the differences in points and counter points of members. When I joined BT I foolishly thought Ahh-haaa....now I understand. Oh well....that's what thinking gets you.
Actually crying with Joy right now.
Brenda
:'(
Hang in there if others are struggling!
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Brenda,
I see a Moderator in the making!! :) :)
Eileen
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Everything is about the many and the few.
The many are NOT in the trial and tribulation of Judgement on the House of God now. The few are “predestinated. “
From http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm
PREDESTINATION: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:5 & 11). Strong's #4309, proorizo, to limit in advance, predetermine: determine before, ordain, predestinate." We are limited before our birth to do only what God has determined beforehand we must do. Therefore, what God has determined we must be, He will surely bring about, and this for sure involves many great changes in our lives.
The many are not the few.
Many still hold the idol of the heart that they have free will and are in the drivers seat of delusional self will. The passenger seat is one of submissive attentive fear and trembling observation of the changes God is causing in our lives that God is changing from physical into spiritual.
There is nothing better, higher more noble to pay attention to than to God, changing us from what we are to what He is.
As Ray observes “…our greatest needs are spiritual. “ That observation would find agreement with not many and only few.
Arc