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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: space.ace.jase on August 22, 2012, 07:02:35 PM
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"That's why God gave us a free will!" one more time I'm going to flip out!!
I'm growing to appreciate this forum more and more as lately I can't seem to stop hearing people talking about their "free" will (while I bite my tongue!). It's like a great tree providing shade from the harsh sun to rest in :)
Just wanted to vent a little - post your favourite things you have heard people saying lately that has been frustrating you (or maybe I'm easily irritated :P)
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My biggest qualm is when they say I believe in John 3:16 and then quote it. And then I ask do you also believe in hell? They say yes and I say then you don't believe John 3:16 then do you?
I feel really bad about this but people just don't seem to understand when I try to explain it or maybe they just don't want to understand. I don't understand why people just can't except God is love. It seems so simple to me? Maybe I'm lookin to deep into it. Here's my rant for the day thanks for listening I feel much better already! Lol
Greg
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one that is most stated as if there is a verse in the 3 book of hebrews ( jusk kidding about the 3rd book) is
Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven..
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I hate it when people say, "If there is no hell? I should just go out and do whatever I want" WOW! I mean, seriously? I hear that nonsense all the time. >:(
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facebook is great for "I love God and Trust him for all my needs"....then the next post, they are scaird, afraid, complaining, whining, faithless.....
#2 is the same as you....God gave me a free will or I made a CHOICE-it was mine!
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"That's why God gave us a free will!" one more time I'm going to flip out!!
I'm growing to appreciate this forum more and more as lately I can't seem to stop hearing people talking about their "free" will (while I bite my tongue!). It's like a great tree providing shade from the harsh sun to rest in :)
Just wanted to vent a little - post your favourite things you have heard people saying lately that has been frustrating you (or maybe I'm easily irritated :P)
Here's two for you: 1) First, from my wife's perspective, whenever I respond to Her by saying: " You just don't understand the reality of all this," She can't stand it when I say that to her.
2) " That's just the way it is, there's nothing you can do about it." That comment emanates from My Dad. I can't stand it when He says that.
And it's always about a situation that doesn't directly affect Him. Often, it is an obvious fact that " there's nothing I can do about something." I just get sick of hearing it.
3) Here's one that both My wife and I can't stand hearing from My Dad, I've been hearing this for 50 years or so: " You have two choices when you get up in the Morning, to be happy or to be sad."
Like I get up in the Morning purposely looking for stress & anxiety in order to be sad.
And Yes, space.ace.jase, I dislike hearing about someone's inner power where they were able to utilize their " Free Will " to overcome something coupled with giving no credit to God.
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Oh I love this post. Recently I've been dealing with this. I sat in on a bible study of my wife's church...and had to sit there and watch a respected pastor and a minister (both are really good people personally) say,
"God is Sovereign but...."
I absolutely hate a but after that grand statement.Then I message her on Fb and present scripture after scripture after scripture; from 1Tim, 1Joh, Isai, Ezek, Act, Jer - scripture after scripture, the actual verse laid out regarding Gods sovereignty and all: and she responds refuting me WITHOUT even ONE verse of scripture. Just that she doesn't agree and her opinion and "unscriptural remark" after another. That burns me inside.
Then another situation, I lay out Ecclesiastes 3, how God appoints seasons and everything - then someone brings in free will :o....like Ecclesiastes 3 should demolish free will alone. Truly, the world lies in darkness.
That a "prayer language" is different from "speaking in tongues". It's a utterance for us to "utter" to God. And I ask for a scripture or verse on that idea and they don't have one.....O.M.G{!!!!}
Oh oh oh, then I hear --- "the bible says, choose ye this day whom ye will serve"...I say, well Jesus says, "you did not choose me, I chose you" then says, "No one can come to me unless the father drags him". What did they say???? "well, we still have to make a choice"... THEN I ask them, "can a leopard change his spots?". They say NO (which is obvious), I show them the scripture, and THEY STILL insist God gives us a choice, it's silly frustrating. Truly, I love that I'm in His light and peace.
Eugene
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I was talking to a person recently that believes they have free will. And I asked them as Ray has said; If you have free will, stop yourself from sinning this minute, and never sin again.
Should have seen the look on their face, it was priceless.
Joel
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...there are two (or sometimes more than two) ways to look at that.
When they name them, I discover that I don't look 'at that' either of those ways.
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Oh I love this post. Recently I've been dealing with this. I sat in on a bible study of my wife's church...and had to sit there and watch a respected pastor and a minister (both are really good people personally) say,
"God is Sovereign but...."
I absolutely hate a but after that grand statement.Then I message her on Fb and present scripture after scripture after scripture; from 1Tim, 1Joh, Isai, Ezek, Act, Jer - scripture after scripture, the actual verse laid out regarding Gods sovereignty and all: and she responds refuting me WITHOUT even ONE verse of scripture. Just that she doesn't agree and her opinion and "unscriptural remark" after another. That burns me inside.
Then another situation, I lay out Ecclesiastes 3, how God appoints seasons and everything - then someone brings in free will :o....like Ecclesiastes 3 should demolish free will alone. Truly, the world lies in darkness.
That a "prayer language" is different from "speaking in tongues". It's a utterance for us to "utter" to God. And I ask for a scripture or verse on that idea and they don't have one.....O.M.G{!!!!}
Oh oh oh, then I hear --- "the bible says, choose ye this day whom ye will serve"...I say, well Jesus says, "you did not choose me, I chose you" then says, "No one can come to me unless the father drags him". What did they say???? "well, we still have to make a choice"... THEN I ask them, "can a leopard change his spots?". They say NO (which is obvious), I show them the scripture, and THEY STILL insist God gives us a choice, it's silly frustrating. Truly, I love that I'm in His light and peace.
Eugene
ha! I love this. I hear L. Ray Smith all over your post! I LOVE it.
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Thanks Gina. Since I've been reading his papers (EVERDAY NOW), I'm becoming in tune with the scriptures :) :)
And another one I hate....
"the bible says..."
And majority of the time IT'S NOT EVEN SCRIPTURE. I've had a guy tryin to argue me to vote and says if I'm a Christian, the bible says to, "obey the laws of the land". Funny. It's not a verse and there IS a verse which tell us NOT to do as people of the land do. And "come as you are". Idk, that really gets me. Then to sit in on a bible study of older people (40s, 50s) who's been in "church" for 15+ years and I know 3 times more scripture than they do at 25. Idk, it just really gets me that "church folk" don't know what the bible says....when they should
Oh OH.
"God didn't make robots."
I think the ones who say that dont even understand their own arguments. regardless, I love this post. I may have to vent a little more in a few weeks on this post. It's been my pain "officially coming out of the church" these past 4 months. Its unbearable to know the truth of matters and see sincere people make mockery of it
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hehe, I just love all that scripture you quoted. ;)
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regardless, I love this post. I may have to vent a little more in a few weeks on this post.
I can't wait that long. ;D
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I was talking to a person recently that believes they have free will. And I asked them as Ray has said; If you have free will, stop yourself from sinning this minute, and never sin again.
Should have seen the look on their face, it was priceless.
Joel
Love that.
space.ace.jase, I think you have set yourself up for a "flip out"
Hope you have a safe landing :)
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"God didn't make robots."
My brother used that one on me, and i immediately came back at him with:
Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
—Romans 9:21
We are clay in the potters hand
He has yet to acknowledge my report :)
blessings all
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oh these are all good ones
another one I hate: 'Well, they chose to go to hell" whaaat??? who would choose that?
this isn't from Ray but I hate it none the less: " it is what it is".......huh???
yeah, that robot one drives me nuts too!
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with the freewill , i always wonder how a person can think that God will leave it up to a mere human to make the choice.
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I'm often told that I take scripture out of "context" to support my "agenda" are they really just telling me that they don't believe the passages I quoted?
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I'm often told that I take scripture out of "context" to support my "agenda" are they really just telling me that they don't believe the passages I quoted?
AH THIS IS GOLDEN!!! Isaiah 46:10 is the perfect example of this
Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring from the beginning, the latter end, And from olden time, that which had never been done,-- Saying My purpose shall stand, and All my pleasure, will I perform; 11 Calling, From the East, a Bird of Prey, From a far country, the Man I intended,-- Yea I have spoken I will also bring it to pass, I have planned, I will also do it.
LIKE HOW CAN THIS BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. "His purpose shall stand, and all my pleasure, will I perform or do. Mention 1 Timothy 2:4 and it goes through one ear and out the other. "you're taking it out of context" "that's your interpretation". Great example. Cause I HATE dealing with that. Like how is preaching there's 50% chance someone goes to heaven or hell a GOSPEL??? Good news AND Hell do not go together. And that's "their" agenda. Our agenda is salvation for all.
I truly share your pain Gabriel.
Eugene
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Hi Eugene,
I love your remarks about your experience.
You are a man after my own heart. BUT, you carry my first name so I don't appreciate your remarks about old people in their 40's and 50's. That is still young!! I'm 77 and still have most thoughts, desires, needs that I did at your age.
I can still make a Ford Mustang V-8 burn rubber for a block. Ha ha, as long as you pay for it. ;D
For folks like us who are going to live for thousands of years PLUS it is a real bummer to be spoken of as OLD, over the hill, losing our minds etc etc.
Kindly offered from your new friend, Eugene Robert B....
Ole Indiana Bob
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Hi Eugene,
I love your remarks about your experience.
You are a man after my own heart. BUT, you carry my first name so I don't appreciate your remarks about old people in their 40's and 50's. That is still young!! I'm 77 and still have most thoughts, desires, needs that I did at your age.
I can still make a Ford Mustang V-8 burn rubber for a block. Ha ha, as long as you pay for it. ;D
For folks like us who are going to live for thousands of years PLUS it is a real bummer to be spoken of as OLD, over the hill, losing our minds etc etc.
Kindly offered from your new friend, Eugene Robert B....
Ole Indiana Bob
Well thank you for your kind words. But I thought I carefully said "oldER", meaning "older than me" or better yet, "old enough to be in a church for years and not know enough scripture". I wouldn't dare label that "old". You're not even old. Now Methuselah, Lamach, Adam, Abraham and them folk -- now them is OLD. :) :). I meant no offense so I apologize if that crossed to that. I figured I was "politically" correct in saying "Older". Well, I should've left that thought out completely
Btw
My name is Shelton Eugene Seward
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Not easily offended are ya, "ol'" bob. ;D
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oh these are all good ones
another one I hate: 'Well, they chose to go to hell" whaaat??? who would choose that?
this isn't from Ray but I hate it none the less: " it is what it is".......huh???
yeah, that robot one drives me nuts too!
Or even worse is when you hear others say "we all deserve to go to hell" ... umm what? So you are saying that little child over there deserves to be in torturous pain without even a millisecond break for trillions and trillions of years (and after all these trillions of years it is only JUST the beginning!!) - it's SO SICK! God has SO MUCH more mercy, love and compassion than all us puny humans do combined and even I wouldn't wish Hitler to such an evil without end. I'm reading "Installment 16 HELL Part D" (for some reason I didn't read this article) and I couldn't get past the half way mark with that story because I literally felt sick in the stomach.
Like Ray says if only people would start to think about the things they say..., but it's all of God so it's all good :D
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oh these are all good ones
another one I hate: 'Well, they chose to go to hell" whaaat??? who would choose that?
this isn't from Ray but I hate it none the less: " it is what it is".......huh???
yeah, that robot one drives me nuts too!
Or even worse is when you hear others say "we all deserve to go to hell" ... umm what? So you are saying that little child over there deserves to be in torturous pain without even a millisecond break for trillions and trillions of years (and after all these trillions of years it is only JUST the beginning!!) - it's SO SICK! God has SO MUCH more mercy, love and compassion than all us puny humans do combined and even I wouldn't wish Hitler to such an evil without end. I'm reading "Installment 16 HELL Part D" (for some reason I didn't read this article) and I couldn't get past the half way mark with that story because I literally felt sick in the stomach.
Like Ray says if only people would start to think about the things they say..., but it's all of God so it's all good :D
Truly, they DON'T think about what they say. If they did, they would know it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Even a LITTLE bit of Love would cause me to think something is wrong with hell. There is no love to think somebody who lied to save his family is gonna burn and be tortured forever. There is no justice.
From what I've experienced, they just claim that it's not Gods fault that people will go to hell and he gives them choices. It's a never ending circle of using no scripture.
OH OH OH. And if you ask someone, where does someone's soul go when they die.....I've heard "bad people go to hell" - "good people heaven". I immediately show 1 Corinthians 15 and about the Resurrection from the dead. I'm like how is there a resurrection if people are already at their destinations????
AND - "I know my grandmother is watching down on me..." - "I know my mama is watching over me...". I hear this from the most carnal people and I knew their loved ones. Heaven and hell doesn't make sense cause there seems to be no standards for heaven. And you just have to be evil for hell. This gets me; cause there is no knowledge whatsoever of DEAD people. They're either walking amongst us, in the sky, in hell, souls lost - unscriptural nonsense. I'm glad to know they'll all be judged in righteousness and be corrected and saved
Eugene
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with the freewill , i always wonder how a person can think that God will leave it up to a mere human to make the choice.
Me too!
Someone said (think it was Billy Graham's daughter or wife or something):
"Well, God gave man a free will and God is too much of a gentleman to overstep that boundary."
(That's when you just know the lights are on but nobody's home. Because everyone knows all gentlemen everywhere derive huge amounts of satisfaction from the smell of billions of pounds of burning flesh coming from screaming babies and grandmothers and grandfathers. Oh but it's true!)
Then there's: You really need to get into a church, Gina--Do not forsake the assembling of the saints.
(Since when is a gathering of people worshiping that kind of a "god" considered saintly?)
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And, of course, this is the part where someone chimes in and says:
"But remember, we used to believe those things too, Gina...."
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I hate when people say.
''What church do you congregate?'', ''Are you saved yet? Have you ever invite Jesus to come into your heart?'', ''Today the pastor said...'', ''The bible say that we must congregate'', ''I don't know the answer but you have to go to talk with the pastor'', ''Today the service was so beatiful...'', ''If we don't tithe we are robing god'', ''Amens'' to whatever the pastor's say... etc. etc.
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so i just found something OH SO PROFOUND from Ray about Hell and how the church sees it
So imagine it, you go to this Christian fantasy of heaven and God says, ‘finally you are here, you are going to get the blessings that I told Abraham, that all the families of the earth would be blessed.
Harry your blessing, look over here your mother, your Father, your grandmother and your great grandmother and grandfather and great grandfather, just look at them writhing in pain like bacon in a pan. Isn’t it wonderful. How do you feel? Isn’t it good to be in heaven. It’s good to be in the kingdom of God, isn’t it. Don’t you feel blessed?
It’s evil! Words can not describe the evil of this doctrine of the Christian church. It is evil beyond human comprehension.
I would love to use this. like, is it truly a BLESSING for "me" to be Paradise and Heaven; yet someone i love so dearly and i know they tried their best but was just addicted to some habits and their being burned for no justice. it's truly nonsense. they truly dont know what they are saying or what heaven and hell really mean. i had to share this. i would not feel blessed in this condition. not at all
Eugene
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Is it not GODS WILL that we WILL to have WILL? Say that 3 times fast. :)
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We must believe in free will, we have no choice. :P
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Hi Gina, I'm on another forum where the wife of a retired pastor comments from time to time.
I think she is Methodist and their congregation is quite large, so I imagine that she has quite a bit of experience counseling folks with problems and in visiting sessions with her husband. I think Methodist still take a chaperon along when visiting women who are alone.
She is a sensitive and sweet person as far as her messages are concerned, but she is really indoctrinated.
Of course I understand that that was the way she was reared and lived with her pastor husband, so it is understandable and I'm not going to try to change her. I continue my relationship because I need to learn how to relate to these folks who are not yet ready for deeper understanding. She worries about me on a regular basis. (smile)
Counseling is what we may be doing in the Kingdom. Of course I realize that God can give us the ability that we need to help people after we are changed, but I think it is good to try to relate during our training and testing and learning to examine ourselves to find our own faults and face them.
I'm truly not sensitive about my age. My wife complains when I tell people that I'm about 80 when I'm not yet. ::) 8)
I think advanced age is an honor and demonstrates a certain amount of courage in those who have problems that cause them pain every day that they live. NOT me! I have had a few problems, but God has favored me with short term problems and a family that supports me in them. My kids and my wife still listen when I begin to speak....as long as I keep it short and to the point. Ain't love grand!
Just sharing a few thoughts. Indiana Bob
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Oh bob, if only you were my maternal father. You are here - with us ... first and foremost.
You have your wits about you.
You are sharp as a tack.
You truly care about others.
I am glad you take care of yourself and eat well.
I don't care how old you are.
I'm, by the goodness of God, getting oldER too. And I hate it. (I'm not kidding!)
But there are worse things in life. Like, B-T (and you) not being here.
:)
Luff you... Nighty nite....
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Gina,
Appreciate the kind thoughts. Bob
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Id like to share this experance i once had i was at a Jesus Festival think it was Jesus 78 or so and had all these big time teachers evangelist pastors there on stag
heard them all and while going back to my tent i stopped for a drink and a young man in a wheel chair was there he had cerabal palsey or something like that and with a slurred voice said to me JJJJJ ee ss u ss lll o vvves you...And a still small voice inside me said greater in the kingdom is he then all those men onstage
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When a nonbelieving friend of a Christian dies and the question is asked;
"Is he in hell?"
I don't know, he may have made a decision to accept Jesus in the last seconds of his life.
"But he died on the operating table."
Only God knows.
"And that comforts you?"
Its all we have.
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We must believe in free will, we have no choice. :P
Gina,
I've read through this thread five or six time now and I just grasped the meaning of your comment.
That is deep my friend.
"we are required to believe in free will" It is not optional. We have no "free will" to choose.
I have never heard it critiqued that way. Brilliant. And coming from one so young. :D
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We must believe in free will, we have no choice. -Isaac B. Singer
Yep, ibob, it's an oxymoron. Just like Ray said.
There's a guy I read years ago who said, Anything that is free, can't be willed. Likewise, anything that can be willed can't possibly be free.
So work out your salvation with awe and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will...
Tah-dah ! ;D
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Not really adding to this, just catching up on everything I missed since I was last registered. I have been seeing black names, but when I got to this post I saw so many. I see Samson, Gina, gmik and santikos are gone.
Not looking for responses, as I know it is none of my business why and when people come and go.
I only had one interaction with Samson and several with Gina.
I was never much of a poster, and I hardly pm but don't think that means I don't know you. Yeah...you. I read every post, pray for you all, and get to know you through what I read. So I am missing some of the interaction I used to see.
I really miss Samson's carry on.
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Some have changed their names.
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I was telling a friend just today that we have to experience both evil and good in order to be conformed into the image of Christ. She replied that
We have the authority to rebuke the devil (and all his evil machinations)
Btw, Is there a scripture to support that?
It never worked for me in Christendom. I thought it was all hocus-pocus. Am I wrong? Is it a part of spiritual warfare like casting out demons? Ray did talk about casting out demons and many people have experienced it, both the indwelling and casting out.
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I was telling a friend just today that we have to experience both evil and good in order to be conformed into the image of Christ. She replied that
We have the authority to rebuke the devil (and all his evil machinations)
Btw, Is there a scripture to support that?
It never worked for me in Christendom. I thought it was all hocus-pocus. Am I wrong? Is it a part of spiritual warfare like casting out demons? Ray did talk about casting out demons and many people have experienced it, both the indwelling and casting out.
Mat 16:23
But he turned , and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan
1Jn 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect , that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is , so are we in this world.
It never worked for you because churchianity tries to turn this into a magic formula. Does it work? ABSOLUTELY!
But according to the will of God not at our every whim.
Jesus spoke the words of the Father not according to what he wanted or thought things should be.
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Jude verse 9 states that Michael the archangel also said, "The Lord rebuke you" in dealing with Satan and the body of Moses.