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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: octoberose on October 08, 2023, 09:27:45 PM
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I can’t help but think what is happening now has all been written down in advance. Maybe it’s not - maybe I shouldn’t read current events into prophecy but really what is prophecy for ? I wish, and have always been sad that Ray didn’t live longer to tell us more of what he saw in scripture- but God only gave him so long on this earth. How ever you see it, what is happening now is very devastating and I am not sure that other countries won’t be sucked into this. Is that political ? I don’t mean it to me. Sitting here without being aware seems inadvisable to me.
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octoberose,
You make a valid point. God has planned all things before He began and there are no rewrites of the play. All things will proceed as determined in advance with a foreknown outcome.
The object of the fighting in the region of Israel is to draw the most powerful armies into the region so that God can show his great power when he destroys the very best that mankind can build to conquer their neighbors. Then when God has the attention of the whole world He will send His son to rule with a rod of iron and make enduring peace.
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what is prophecy for ?
Maybe it's as simple as this?
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Thayer Definition:1)
prophecy
1a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events
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I can’t help but think what is happening now has all been written down in advance. Maybe it’s not - maybe I shouldn’t read current events into prophecy but really what is prophecy for ? I wish, and have always been sad that Ray didn’t live longer to tell us more of what he saw in scripture- but God only gave him so long on this earth. How ever you see it, what is happening now is very devastating and I am not sure that other countries won’t be sucked into this. Is that political ? I don’t mean it to me. Sitting here without being aware seems inadvisable to me.
Yes, it has been written down in advance. Everything according to his will:
Isaiah 46:10-11
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.
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And so we wait and remain faithful while we wait. Thank you.
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always thought i was supposed to know everything but i'm slowly learning differently
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I feel ya mike. As weird as this sounds, I asked God about it the other day and asked Him to show me. Not that I thought I was someone special that He had to show me anything, mind you. Here are some passages that came to mind either way.
Php 3:10 My goal is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
Php 3:11 assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already reached the goal or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
Php 3:14 I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God's heavenly call in Christ Jesus.
To me, this goes hand in hand with this next verse, especially the bolded part from Php 3:13. Paul is referring to all that he once believed and lived for when he was Saul, the Pharisee.
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven: Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins, or receive any of her plagues.
Another witness.
Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness that is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But everything that was a gain to me, I have considered to be a loss because of Christ.
Php 3:8 More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth, so that I may gain Christ
Made me wonder how much of my previous knowledge of “prophecy” is worth keeping or even true? What happens when Christ is revealed or made known to me? It must be something, as Paul thought it was worth pursuing above all else.
But yeah, the passages above seem different from when I first read them.
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Truth be told I have felt things in the past week I just didn’t expect. I have been all in that the people who committed the killings and rapes in Israel just be dead. Just kill them all - I’m perfectly fine with that. I don’t seem to mind that Israel is bombing Gaza. And then I’m wondering what I’m going to accept as behavior or beliefs in my life when I’m a God follower. Truly, I don’t have an easy answer because I’m not a a believer in letting people slaughter your children. But I don’t believe in revenge either. I wanted to be defiant and angry, but defiance and anger get you nowhere . I asked my husband what the early Christian’s would have done ( I already knew the answer but…) and he said they would accept death.
I don’t know how some of you are feeling but I don’t see that a war in Israel is just a coincidence . I believe we are in the last days , and this is all part of it. I don’t want to be on the wrong side of God because I’m outraged. I think I need a little help in dealing with it all.
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I can relate to being angry and the outrage you are feeling, I really can. Just thinking about the fact that MORE killing is the only answer to them infuriates me, but I didn't always care people were killing each other. Then I remembered it's supposed to be this way for now. In this way, it seems my senses are being exercised.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.
I don't believe in coincidences myself, as God has determined a time for everything we experience.
Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised [Hebrew: humbled] in it.
It never seems to stop. I often fail in trying to discern good from evil, whether in the world or in myself, but God always reminds me He is still in total control. I think this is how faith is exercised and improved. We can know this because how many in the world believe God creates and control's evil? How many believe, whether we stand or fall, it is ultimately because of God? I can't help but come to the conclusion the world is a training ground, just as Ray said, and now I know why Ray said that. I, personally, couldn't have known it unless I first experienced constantly failing and constantly being made to stand up and try again, over and over and over once more.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
It's so easy to get down on ourselves and the world. Hence, the warning.
Mat 13:22 Now the one sown among the thorns--this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Maybe it's only a problem when we lean onto the understanding and knowledge of our carnal minds and false prophets?
Luk 6:24 But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your comfort.
Luk 6:25 Woe to you who are full now, because you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, because you will mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe to you when all people speak well of you, because this is the way their ancestors used to treat the false prophets.In light of the parable above, this next verse makes so much more sense now, doesn't it?
1Co 10:7 Don't become idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and got up to play.
It's all one.
Mat 24:37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
Mat 24:38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark.
You're right rose, these are “the last days”, but would you agree we've been in the last days since the Day of Pentecost over 2000 years ago? Has Jesus not been gathering His Elect into the Ark since then? What is Noah's flood but a type or shadow of spiritual baptism? This is what Peter said on the Day of Pentecost, when the gift of the Holy Spirit was pored out on the disciples.
Act 2:38 "Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ray always said how Jesus comes to every believer in every generation quickly. But how many believed his report?
I know this stuff isn't easy to understand, so believe me when I say I'm often surprised with what little I understand at times.
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I don’t know how some of you are feeling but I don’t see that a war in Israel is just a coincidence . I believe we are in the last days , and this is all part of it. I don’t want to be on the wrong side of God because I’m outraged. I think I need a little help in dealing with it all.
These days we’re written before the foundation of the earth and have to come to pass the way God knows that they must and that also includes the slaughter of the innocents. Even in the old testament at times God told the children of Israel to totally wipe out their enemies men, woman and children. I recoil at that of course as we all do. Some things are well above our pay grade even though I am beginning to grasp the necessity of some of these things.
What I often remind myself of is that Jesus is the savior of the world, he will save the world including the Hamas and Islamic animals and but by the grace of God go I. And if there was a better way for God to accomplish his will then he would do it that way.
A audio teaching that Ray did you might find helpful here as you and I might have been born into one of those radical Islamic families;
http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05%20Guilty_of_ALL.mp3
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From … the Christian hell is a Christian Hoax
Quote from Ray…. “ God’s word forces us to go with the facts or we will be
among those who despise the word of God.”
God tells Isaiah how our downfall will begin if we don’t heed his warning.
Isa 30:13 is a picture of total destruction and devastation. But what sin have we committed? Why is God angry with our nation? Here’s the answer… Isa. 30:8-12
Are you guilty of despising the word of God? Would you rather be lulled to sleep
and complacency by the pernicious , pious platitudes of your pastors and priests?
Read my paper The Day of the Great Slaughter, hopefully it will help you to
understand these prophecies regarding our nation. That mass murder event
was not the horror described in Isa.30. It was merely the prelude, the warning
shot over the bow so to speak. The real event is yet future but it’s on its way.
Many Americans actually believe that each day and in every way we are getting
better. ( I don’t know when Ray wrote this paper but I don’t think Americans
think that anymore.)
Where is our society free from crime, greed ,corruption and deceit ? Where?
Well it’s all about to come down and come down very hard. But as Isaiah stated,
Who believes our report?
End of a few excerpts from the hell hoax paper.
What Jesus saw when His Father sent Titus and the Roman army to Jerusalem to do,
it grieved Him and He wept.
Like Arion said… this is the best way and it’s our Fathers will. We must justify
the sovereignty of our God for the well-being of all humanity.
There is coming a resurrection of the just and the unjust. All these people
will be resurrected and judged and made into the image of their creator.
Our families will all be blessed. For the first time in all history, humanity will
be truly loved and happy. I think about this all the time and pray for Gods will
to be done even though seeing the news of the sufferings is suffocating at times.
Especially the little children. Octoberose, I feel your heart. You know what though.
when I think about what else is about to happen to this world and that we should
pray to be counted worthy to escape these things , then I think that those who are
dying are safe in the grave until resurrection when they will be awoken and
judged in the loving arms of our merciful Lord and His Spiritual sons and daughters.
Our children. All children will have wonderful lives along with their families all
the way back to our first parents. It’s very reassuring. Flesh and blood cannot inherit
the Kingdom of God. Not even the flesh and blood of little children . That’s one
of the facts we are to believe. It is scripture. I Remember Ray saying “ it
would be nice if there were another way, but no, it is through judgement.
I pray for wisdom and endurance and that our Heavenly Father will increase
our faith to keep the unity of spirit and to give us strength to continue in His word.
God loves us because we love Jesus who suffered tremendously for all people.
All people are Gods people. God will see us through. He promised and He never
breaks His promise.
In Christ… Pamela 💕
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I can relate to being angry and the outrage you are feeling, I really can. Just thinking about the fact that MORE killing is the only answer to them infuriates me, but I didn't always care people were killing each other. Then I remembered it's supposed to be this way for now. In this way, it seems my senses are being exercised.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature--for those whose senses have been trained to distinguish between good and evil.
I don't believe in coincidences myself, as God has determined a time for everything we experience.
Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised [Hebrew: humbled] in it.
It never seems to stop. I often fail in trying to discern good from evil, whether in the world or in myself, but God always reminds me He is still in total control. I think this is how faith is exercised and improved. We can know this because how many in the world believe God creates and control's evil? How many believe, whether we stand or fall, it is ultimately because of God? I can't help but come to the conclusion the world is a training ground, just as Ray said, and now I know why Ray said that. I, personally, couldn't have known it unless I first experienced constantly failing and constantly being made to stand up and try again, over and over and over once more.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
It's so easy to get down on ourselves and the world. Hence, the warning.
Mat 13:22 Now the one sown among the thorns--this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Maybe it's only a problem when we lean onto the understanding and knowledge of our carnal minds and false prophets?
Luk 6:24 But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your comfort.
Luk 6:25 Woe to you who are full now, because you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, because you will mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe to you when all people speak well of you, because this is the way their ancestors used to treat the false prophets.In light of the parable above, this next verse makes so much more sense now, doesn't it?
1Co 10:7 Don't become idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and got up to play.
It's all one.
Mat 24:37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
Mat 24:38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark.
You're right rose, these are “the last days”, but would you agree we've been in the last days since the Day of Pentecost over 2000 years ago? Has Jesus not been gathering His Elect into the Ark since then? What is Noah's flood but a type or shadow of spiritual baptism? This is what Peter said on the Day of Pentecost, when the gift of the Holy Spirit was pored out on the disciples.
Act 2:38 "Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ray always said how Jesus comes to every believer in every generation quickly. But how many believed his report?
I know this stuff isn't easy to understand, so believe me when I say I'm often surprised with what little I understand at times.
Amen bro. Well said.
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thank you for the replies. I appreciate the care you took to write. And I do think we are in the last of the last days. We may not know the day but the signs are there. I understand Revelations was a vision- but everything stands for something and it was written for our benefit so we wouldn’t be in the dark. There’s a lot of reasons, but suffice to say the war in Israel breaking out right when it did is a clue. Don’t forget, Over twenty years ago Ray thought that 9/11 was something to pay attention to.
Be that as it may, the brutality of what happened last week is a lot to bear even from far off .
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thank you for the replies. I appreciate the care you took to write. And I do think we are in the last of the last days. We may not know the day but the signs are there. I understand Revelations was a vision- but everything stands for something and it was written for our benefit so we wouldn’t be in the dark. There’s a lot of reasons, but suffice to say the war in Israel breaking out right when it did is a clue. Don’t forget, Over twenty years ago Ray thought that 9/11 was something to pay attention to.
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Be that as it may, the brutality of what happened last week is a lot to bear even from far off .
Agree ... but we ain't seen nothing yet. :-\
The attack on Israel, as traumatic as it was will pale in comparison to the full measure all out destruction yet to come.
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Octoberose, I feel your heart. You know what though.
when I think about what else is about to happen to this world and that we should
pray to be counted worthy to escape these things , then I think that those who are
dying are safe in the grave until resurrection when they will be awoken and
judged in the loving arms of our merciful Lord and His Spiritual sons and daughters.
I'm not picking on you or anything, Pamela, but I just wanted to zero in on the statement you made above to Rose that I quoted. Are you referring to this parable?
Luk 21:34 "Be on your guard, so that your minds are not dulled from carousing, drunkenness, and worries of life, or that day will come on you unexpectedly
Luk 21:35 like a trap. For it will come on all who live on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place and to stand before the Son of Man."
Here's another witness that says the same thing.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober! Be on the alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.
Here's another witness to consider.
1Pe 4:3 For there has already been enough time spent in doing the will of the pagans: carrying on in unrestrained behavior, evil desires, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and lawless idolatry.
1Pe 4:4 In regard to this, they are surprised that you don't plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation--and they slander you.
1Pe 4:5 They will give an account to the One who stands ready to judge the living and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For this reason the gospel was also preached to those who are now dead [Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.], so that, although they might be judged by men in the fleshly realm, they might live by God in the spiritual realm.
1Pe 4:7 Now the end of all things is near; therefore, be clear-headed and disciplined for prayer.
Are parables ever literally true? If not, do we at least have a witness that says the opposite of what the church teaches (read: pre-tribulation rapture theory) but also harmonizes with the verses cited above?
Joh 17:15 I am not praying that You take them out of the world but that You protect them from the evil one.
I have many questions; some I know the answer to, some I don't, so bear with me. Part of my reasoning for the questions is to provoke thought and find confirmation for the things I believe to be true. Another reason for the questions is simply because I'm not completely sure about the answers I have swirling around in my head. Many of my questions stem from the assumption that you've read Ray's papers, so if it doesn't make sense, then don't worry about it. I already know what the church believes and teaches, and it is depressing news. The kind of depressing news that makes me want to hide and go to sleep because it's nothing but bad news. It's easy to get lulled to sleep by it, so it most definitely is like a trap too. I'm not saying that to be sarcastic, as it is precisely what I did in the past whenever something in life overwhelmed me because I didn't know how to deal with it. Anyhow, on to the questions.
What is this warning about a trap that we must be aware of, and what is it exactly that we should be escaping that Jesus is talking about? Isn't the Elect escaping the day of the Lord, the Great White Throne Judgment in the Lake of Fire? What do Jesus and 1Peter mean when they say to be "sober"? What exactly is Noah's flood a type and shadow of? Does the flood of Noah represent our baptism or the world's baptism? Is it both? Did Noah and his family die in the flood? Or were Noah and his family already dead to the world and its ways when they endured many years by obeying the Lord and building an Ark? Who do Noah and his family represent spiritually? Who do the people in the flood that got swept away represent?
Does this following passage from Hebrews mean anything to anyone in relation to what Jesus said in His parable concerning the world?
Heb 12:25 See that you do not reject the One who speaks; for if they did not escape when they rejected Him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven.
Heb 12:26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now He has promised, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 Now this expression, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what is not shaken might remain.
Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us hold on to grace. By it, we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe;
Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
I know these are a lot of questions, and I don't expect anyone to answer them, but here they are in case you can or even want to. I have a lot more questions and scripture to go with them, but I don't want to spam this thread too much.
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I have been following this thread like many. The last few days/weeks I have been asking the Father what is going on! It is always hard for me to know what to think about world events ever since reading and understanding that Ray said the WHOLE book of Revelation was symbolic.
I have seen some commenters referring to different passages in Revelations. Are we to assume that things we see today are part of those “symbolic” prophecies? If the whole of Revelations is symbolic, or speaking in symbols (and I believe Ray here), how could we possibly try to match what we are see happening to specific prophecies?
I don’t have any answers except that I don’t know…and therefore must wait and trust in Elohim. I am like Octoberose, heart sick and confused how I should be viewing the events. I want retribution to the terrorists, but God says vengeance is His! What do I do about that?
Indiana Bob says we have not seen anything yet. And my thinking over the years about what must transpire (based on Revelations) agrees with that sentiment….but what I am to do with the knowledge that the WHOLE of Revelations is symbolic???
We can’t really know can we? Remember when Ray was explaining that a third of the trees and grass were not going to burn and that a third of the fish in the ocean were not going to die? It is symbolic of something else!
So, all I do is try to think back to my studies, and my understanding of what Ray taught, and then just kind of wait in my own mind. The traditional “Christian” belief of the literal understanding of Revelations never rang true to me because it always sounded SO far fetched. I was so thankful for Ray showing how it is symbolic.
These are truly hard times to understand.
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We can’t really know can we? Remember when Ray was explaining that a third of the trees and grass were not going to burn and that a third of the fish in the ocean were not going to die? It is symbolic of something else!
IIRC correctly what he was teaching is that this takes place in you and I....the believer. As this takes place in our lives a third of our carnality is burned out and the mountains in our lives are being removed, etc.
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Arion, I just don’t believe that . I’d rather not get myself thrown out of my spiritual
Home , but I don’t worship Ray . I’m not trying to teach you something contrary to Rays teaching , I’m simply saying there are places I believe he missed the mark. He is no longer here to explain , defend or change . No one sees perfectly - knowledge is partial on this side of heaven .
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Yes God removes our Babylon in us, the trees the mountains , burns the grass,etc. But He also removes it from the world.
Porter, I don’t believe for one minute that you are picking on me. You are my
brother and I love you.
So what have I learned at BT?
I read all of your questions and concerns and realized that the answers to all of them are in Rays Rapture Paper.
I have been studying Rays papers, the Lake of fire series every day for the past
eight years for many hours a day, listening to audios and reading transcripts
also, just to give you peace of mind , it’s all I do or care to do. My first study was on the Myth of
Free Will which I believe is a huge part of what is happening in our world today.
Understanding Gods Sovereignty is paramount . Abraham believed that God would
Raise Isaac from the dead. That’s the kind of faith it takes to understand Gods
Sovereignty. It’s a gift, just as everything is a gift from God.
All parables are The many called and few chosen. Two groups. It is the theme
throughout the Bible.
To understand about Noah. Just read the Rapture paper under Rapture of the Wicked.i This article of Rays also explains the parable of the ten virgins, watching
and being SOBER. The trap/ snare is for the wicked, the good fish are kept.
Ray says it was always Gods intention for the elect to remain on the earth
and gives many scriptures to prove it.
The two grinding at the mill are two groups, one is taken , one is kept etc.
JGods judgement on the elect is now and judgement is the same for both the just and the unjust. The difference is the timeline and knowing the difference between affliction/ tribulation and wrath / indignation. Gods elect
Will not incur the latter. As for the Day of the Lord this too is explained in great
detail. Porter , this is a huge study and I am on my fourth study of it but it’s
Contains many, many apples of gold. I cannot write all the scriptures but they are there for anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear. I pray the God will
give you the answers you are seeking and all who here on the forum seeking as well. Let us pray for wisdom and endurance to continue running this race.
Do you know why God is shortening the time for the elect? Does anyone have
an answer to this question? I think I might but need to search the scriptures
for it. Porter if you need help with the Rapture Paper I am willing to help you.
Maybe it’s time we began some discussion ,,,,, or maybe not. It all depends on
what our Father wants and His will according to His purpose.
Can’t go wrong with that belief right. Hang in there everyone. God WILL SEE US THROUGH,but it won’t be a walk in the park as Ray has stated many times.All praise and glory to our Sovereign God.
I am sorry I didn’t post scriptures but there are just too many along with
witnesses to each one but they are in the Rapture paper. I am so in awe
Of the knowledge and wisdom that Our Father has given to Ray to teach us.
We are so very blessed , it boggles the mind. Thank you Lord.
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Yes God removes our Babylon in us, the trees the mountains , burns the grass,etc. But He also removes it from the world. All parables are The many called and few chosen. Two groups. It is the theme
throughout the Bible.
To understand about Noah. Just read the Rapture paper under Rapture of the Wicked.i This article of Rays also explains the parable of the ten virgins, watching
and being SOBER. The trap/ snare is for the wicked, the good fish are kept.
Ray says it was always Gods intention for the elect to remain on the earth
and gives many scriptures to prove it.
The two grinding at the mill are two groups, one is taken , one is kept etc.
JGods judgement on the elect is now and judgement is the same for both the just and the unjust. The difference is the timeline and knowing the difference between affliction/ tribulation and wrath / indignation.
Thanks, Pamela, these were a few of the things I was looking for confirmation on.
Do you know why God is shortening the time for the elect? Does anyone have an answer to this question?
I did a little study on this not too long ago, as I thought it to be an interesting statement by Jesus. I studied the Old Testament stories as well as the New Testaments ones and came to some incredible realizations, but I won't mention them here at this time. Suffice it to say, the use of water as a symbol for cleansing whole regions and cities is quite ubiquitous throughout the Scriptures, even when it isn't obvious, i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah is one example. Anyhow, here's some Scripture from the Concordant Literal Version to consider in relation to your immediate question.
Rev 19:17 And I perceived another messenger, standing in the sun. And he cries with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which are flying in mid-heaven, "Hither! Be gathered for the great dinner of God,
Rev 19:18 that you may be eating the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of the strong, and the flesh of horses and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all freemen as well as slaves, and of small and of great."
Rev 19:19 And I perceived the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered to do battle with Him Who is sitting on the horse and with His army."
Rev 19:20 And the wild beast is arrested, and with it the false prophet who does the signs in its sight, by which he deceives those getting the emblem of the wild beast, and those worshiping its image. Living, the two were cast into the lake of fire burning with sulphur."
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the blade which is coming out of the mouth of Him Who is sitting on the horse. And all the birds are satisfied with their flesh.
The parable you are referring to in Mathew sounds awfully similar to the passage above from Revelation.
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
Mat 24:22 And, except those days were discounted, no flesh at all would be saved. Yet, because of the chosen, those days shall be discounted."
Mat 24:23 Then, if anyone should be saying to you, 'Lo! here is the Christ! or 'Here!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."
Mat 24:25 Lo! I have declared it to you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 If, then, they should say to you, 'Lo! in the wilderness is he!' you may not be coming out' 'Lo! in the storerooms!' you should not be believing it."
Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
Mat 24:28 Wheresoever the corpse may be, there will the vultures be gathered."
I became stumped when I couldn't figure out who these “birds which are flying in mid-heaven” from Revelation and “vultures” from Mathew represent. IF (big IF) these birds represent the Elect, then it would make sense they are picking humanity CLEAN. When I think of “flesh” I think of the carnal mind, but why would any flesh at all need to be saved? There's another piece of Scripture here concerning the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Mat 22:1 And, answering, Jesus speaks to them again in parables, saying,
Mat 22:2 Likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who makes wedding festivities for his son."
Mat 22:3 And he dispatches his slaves to call those invited to the wedding festivities, and they would not come."
Mat 22:4 Again he dispatches other slaves, saying, 'Say to those invited, "Lo! my luncheon have I made ready, my bulls and grain-fed animals have been sacrificed, and all is ready: Hither for the wedding festivities!"'"
Mat 22:5 Yet they, not caring, came away, one, indeed, to his own field, yet one to his merchandise."
Mat 22:6 Yet the rest, taking hold of his slaves, outrage and kill them."
Mat 22:7 Now the king is angered, and, sending his troops, destroys those murderers and sets their city in flames."
Mat 22:8 Then he is saying to his slaves, 'The wedding, indeed, is ready, yet those invited were not worthy."
Mat 22:9 Go, then, to the exits of the roads and whosoever you may be finding, call to the wedding festivities.'"
Mat 22:10 And, coming out into the roads, those slaves gathered all whom they found, both wicked and good, and filled is the wedding with those lying back at table."
Mat 22:11 Now the king, entering to gaze at those lying back at table, perceived there a man who has not put on wedding apparel."
Mat 22:12 And he is saying to him, 'Comrade, how did you enter here having no wedding apparel?' Yet he was still."
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Binding his feet and hands, cast him out into outer darkness.' There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth."
Mat 22:14 For many are the called, yet few are the chosen."
I'm tempted to believe some Scriptural “prophecies” above are still yet in the future, but some happened in the past and some are happening now. The shortening of time for the Elect's sake could simply be encouragement regarding how short our lives are as mortals? I don't know that for sure, so it's just a shot in the dark. However, if there was one thing I thought might be ONLY in the future, that would be the part about “great affliction” in the “Day of the Lord” at the Great White Throne Judgment/Lake of Fire. Are these aforementioned events the same as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?
FYI, I'm not making a big stand on anything I've presented here, just putting it all out there for discussion as I'm always open to correction and further study. Sorry if I couldn't answer your question adequately, as I simply do not know. God willing, maybe we can figure this out together.
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I don’t have any answers except that I don’t know…and therefore must wait and trust in Elohim. I am like Octoberose, heart sick and confused how I should be viewing the events. I want retribution to the terrorists, but God says vengeance is His! What do I do about that?
I think this is the passage you're referring to?
Rom 12:19 Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath [Greek: desire]. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord.
Rom 12:20 But If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For in so doing you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.
Rom 12:21 Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.
Paul in the passage above is quoting and interpreting the 'Song of Moses' found in Deut. 32:35. God's idea of “judgment” is to feed His enemies when they are hungry. God's idea of “vengeance” is to give His enemies something to drink when they are thirsty. And God's idea of repaying His enemies is by conquering them with good, not evil.
I suppose this next passage is as good a second witness as any.
Luk 6:35 But love [Greek: agapao] your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
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I don’t have any answers except that I don’t know…and therefore must wait and trust in Elohim. I am like Octoberose, heart sick and confused how I should be viewing the events. I want retribution to the terrorists, but God says vengeance is His! What do I do about that?
I think this is the passage you're referring to?
Rom 12:19 Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath [Greek: desire]. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord.
Rom 12:20 But If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For in so doing you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.
Rom 12:21 Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.
Paul in the passage above is quoting and interpreting the 'Song of Moses' found in Deut. 32:35. God's idea of “judgment” is to feed His enemies when they are hungry. God's idea of “vengeance” is to give His enemies something to drink when they are thirsty. And God's idea of repaying His enemies is by conquering them with good, not evil.
I suppose this next passage is as good a second witness as any.
Luk 6:35 But love [Greek: agapao] your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
Amen. The Lord has given us clear instructions. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
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Hi Porter
I found this about Matt.24- 28.. Wherever the corpse is , the vultures will gather.
Match Luke 17:37 and Job 39:30.
First of all , I believe Ray had said that birds/ fowl are a symbol for evil spirits.
Example… calling a ravenous bird from the east scripture from Isaiah. This Ray said
is talking about an evil man , he calls him a bird. You can read the transcript or listen
to the audio End Time Prophecies. This teaching of Rays also includes lots of future
prophecy. And yes some that are happening now. Ok. Back to the birds.
Another scripture is Rev. 18:2 and Zep.2:14.
Ok so here is what Ray says in the Rapture Paper regarding the vultures.
Israel was granted lots in the promised land. When God resurrects Israel
they will once again return to their designated lots and Daniel will have his lot.
See Daniel 12:13) waiting period.
One obvious reason for this wait has to do with the condition of the land itself.
We read of the vultures feasting on dead men’s carcasses. The filth and stench
will be terrible. It may take weeks or months to clean up the land suitable for possession and habitation before anyone actually stands in his lot.
Picking us clean spiritually sounds like the vultures of Babylon eating our hearts and minds. But I’m wondering if this is speaking of the phiysical. We are
burned clean in God’s firey grace and brimstone. Gehenna Spiritual Fire.
Anyway , I would like to discuss this Daniel 12:13 … happy is he who will tarry
scripture but it will have to WAIT (pun intended) until later. I gotta rest my
old fingers.
Dynamo54, yes you must wait and trust in God, we all must wait and trust in our
Sovereign God who does all things according to the council of His own will.
We must pray , Thy will be done on earth as in heaven.
As in heaven , what’s that mean? I think there’s scripture and Ray also spoke about
a pattern . I think it’s in Hebrews. I’m sure I heard Ray mention it. Anyone know where? I better slow down . One thing at a time.
God Bless you all and give us wisdom.
May the Lord cause you to increase and superabound in love for one another
and for all, even as we also for you, to establish your hearts unblamable
for you, in holiness in front of our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus
with all His saints.( 1 Thes. 3:12-13}
Come Lord Jesus. In Christ, Pamela
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I want to say that I asked God to forgive me for my reaction to the people who did such unspeakable things in Israel. God is just and God will take care of it and one day all those who killed and raped will fervently ask God’s forgiveness. And all in Israel will see the fulfillment of Law that they have only seen in shadows and they will forgive and they will be forgiven. Sometimes it’s hard not to react as a human being because my cannel side feels one thing and a higher calling takes me another direction altogether. I expected chastisement and not your gentle response .
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Should have said carnal. But you probably knew that. :0)
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I want to say that I asked God to forgive me for my reaction to the people who did such unspeakable things in Israel. God is just and God will take care of it and one day all those who killed and raped will fervently ask God’s forgiveness. And all in Israel will see the fulfillment of Law that they have only seen in shadows and they will forgive and they will be forgiven. Sometimes it’s hard not to react as a human being because my cannel side feels one thing and a higher calling takes me another direction altogether. I expected chastisement and not your gentle response .
I lose my temper and lash out more often than I should. You aren't alone. I have a long way to go. This is a very difficult walk.
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I don’t have any answers except that I don’t know…and therefore must wait and trust in Elohim. I am like Octoberose, heart sick and confused how I should be viewing the events. I want retribution to the terrorists, but God says vengeance is His! What do I do about that?
I think this is the passage you're referring to?
Rom 12:19 Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath [Greek: desire]. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord.
Rom 12:20 But If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. For in so doing you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.
Rom 12:21 Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.
Paul in the passage above is quoting and interpreting the 'Song of Moses' found in Deut. 32:35. God's idea of “judgment” is to feed His enemies when they are hungry. God's idea of “vengeance” is to give His enemies something to drink when they are thirsty. And God's idea of repaying His enemies is by conquering them with good, not evil.
I suppose this next passage is as good a second witness as any.
Luk 6:35 But love [Greek: agapao] your enemies, do what is good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is gracious to the ungrateful and evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
Amen. The Lord has given us clear instructions. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Friend Ralph,
And God intends that the flesh remain weak until we die. It is part of the lesson that we of ourselves cannot overcome sin. Oh we may improve a little and treat ourselves and others with a little more grace and consideration in our daily lives but,,,
It will take a miracle to fix the other 99 percent and that will not happen until God changes us with the gift of a new heart, mind and spirit at the resurrection.
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Pamela, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, as there's been a lot going on over here on the home front. I haven't had a lot of energy to do much in the way of studying. However, I did find a few more clues concerning your question regarding what Jesus said when He talked about shortening the days for the elect's sake.
Firstly, thank you for the reminder about Ray's teaching on birds/fowls symbolizing evil spirits. I also found this from Ray to support this idea.
This will be long, and for that, I apologize, as it may be hard to follow. If the mods need to remove it, that's fine. I will save a copy and just send it in a PM to Pamela. To be totally honest, I never intended this response to be this long. However, most, if not all, of what I've written here can be corroborated by what Ray has already written. So if you've already read Ray's papers, you're not missing much aside from more supporting Scripture.
https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html (https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html)
Satan entered Eden as "that Old Serpent [Satan]" and deceived Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Satan didn't sneak into the garden against God's will. He performed a needful task with our first parents. God knew what Satan was going to do to Adam and Eve. God did not try to prevent it. It is all part of God's master plan.
Just as God has provided food for mankind, He has also provided food for Satan. And just what kind of food does Satan dine on? Satan dines on mankind.
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).
This is, of course a parable. That "serpent" in the garden was none other than
"...that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world..." (Rev. 12:9).
And this is the same serpent that "deceived" Eve.
Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]..." (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS "dust.'
"...for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).
When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5: 8) .
Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.
Satan even had King David for dinner:
"And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
But always remember, Satan never operates beyond his God-given parameters as we will see in the case of Job.
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:
"And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6).
It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not..." (Mal. 3:6).
David prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:
"Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).
Are not these activities of Satan necessary? Does God use Satan for no good purpose? Then why can't men see that God also CREATED Satan for these very purposes?
Satan is constantly finding fault with God's Chosen ones:
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and SATAN standing at his right hand to resist [accuse] him" (Zech. 3:1).
Remember, Satan can do NOTHING without God's approval. When God completed His creating, He said
"And God saw EVERY THING that He had made [including Satan, the Adversary], and, behold, it was VERY GOOD..." (Gen. 1:31).
Satan was not only necessary, but he was, in fact, PERFECT for the job that God created him to fulfill.
Then we have this from 1Co 5:5 - " turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh [Greek: sarx], so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord."
It is the same Greek sarx used in Romans 8:7, where Ray explains that it refers to the “carnal mind”. It is also the same Greek sarx Jesus used in the passage in question.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh [Greek: sarx] should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
The ravenous bird from the east that God Himself is calling (Isa_46:11) could very well be Satan, seeing how it's Satan's job to destroy the carnal mind. Not Satan only, but possibly Satan's children also—remembering God uses evil for good.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil's works.
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother [1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.].
Here's another passage that details the manner in which Jesus reveals and then destroys the works of Satan. (I'm constantly amazed at how many other passages are connected to the following passage.)
2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. Only when the present detainer (Jesus?) may be coming to be out of the midst,
2Th 2:8 then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth (Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.) and will discard by the advent of His presence),
2Th 2:9 whose presence is in accord with the operation (works) of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles"
It seems Satan rather frequently operates through his children.
Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ray stated that God provides food for Satan and gave some proof text. Here's what sounds like another proof text.
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Remember when Ray talked about man's heaven vs. God's heaven? To paraphrase, Ray said something like: "man's heaven is a place of spiritual delusion. God's heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment".
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles (Greek: strategies) of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness [Joh 3:19: …and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.] of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places.
We may not be wrestling against the flesh and blood of men; we are, however, wrestling against the things they teach, the things that appeal to the natural, carnal-minded man. Teachings that come from Satan and rule or have dominion over our lives in some way.
While all the above supports the idea of the fowls of the air being “evil spirits”, it still doesn't explain why the days of great affliction would need to be shortened for the elect's sake. What's more, it doesn't explain why the flesh/sarx or carnal mind needs to be saved at all. I mean, I would understand if it replaced the word flesh for the word spirit, but that's not the case, and it confuses the heck out of me. Hence, it piqued my interest in it a while back when I first tried to study it.
I'm well aware of the churches teaching on it, as they use it to try to prove that most of mankind will be wiped out by some world war or worldwide catastrophe. All this, of course, is supposed to happen after “the antichrist” appears on earth and after the church has been raptured. I'm inclined to reject that belief automatically. Not just because Ray says everything the church teaches is a lie. But because my personal studies and the Spirit have shown me that everything the church teaches is a lie and contradicts the things I have learned from the Scriptures and from Ray these last 11 or 12 years. The foundation on which I base this is the fact that Jesus said He only taught in parables, and I believe Him.
Having said all that, I did find these from Ray.
https://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm (https://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm)
Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"
"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).
Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!
And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, " Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."
For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won't repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares
"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).
And
"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend..." (Ver 41).
So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.
Notice Romans 8:33, "... God's elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn't have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."
Didn't our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?
One more,
"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire..." (Mat. 13:47-50).
Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!
https://bible-truths.com/towers.htm (https://bible-truths.com/towers.htm)
Matt. 24:21-22- "For then [when? At the END of this age, Verse 3] shall be GREAT TRIBULATION [pressure, anguish, affliction, persecution, tribulation, trouble] , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor EVER SHALL BE. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Yes, there will be salvation for the human race, but it will happen only after a great slaughter of humanity to the point that no flesh would remain alive except for God shortening that period of carnage. Are we told elsewhere of such a great slaughter of humanity? Yes we are, back to Isaiah 30:
"And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of water [yes God will bring peace to the earth, but He also tells us when this will be...] in the day of the GREAT SLAUGHTER, WHEN THE TOWERS FALL" (Verse 25).
Is it me, or is Ray applying a literal interpretation to what I thought was a parable in Mat. 24:21,22? I'm beginning to wonder where I got this idea that the great affliction Jesus mentioned was only in the future, in the Great White Throne Judgment/Second Death/Lake of Fire. It could be that I'm not rightly dividing the word of truth (2Ti 2:15) in this instance. Which means that the part about great affliction is a parable to them, seeing how the elect are appointed to tribulation and are not to be taken out of the world. But the part about most of mankind being wiped out is true. Can you, Pamela, or anyone else explain?
It seems more than ever that the world is afraid that the world is about to end. It's easy to get caught up in that fear, especially when the church is pushing hard to scare everyone. I hope that we can figure out what Jesus meant in the parable we are discussing. Otherwise, maybe we can at least try to comfort one another in these times.
Please forgive the excessive spacing between the paragraphs. It's the only way I know how to keep everything from bunching up and looking like a mess. It's possible I missed a few spaces here and there between paragraphs, so it may end up looking bad either way due to the formatting.
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Porter, what a labor of love that was.
I have not known what to make of the sequence of events of Noah . It is a good point to bring up.
How do we resolve this?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Or Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angles with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .
You mentioned the fact that Jesus only taught in parables ( I keep trying to tell people that and they don’t believe me - Matt 13). But he only taught the masses in parables and then he would tell the disciples what he is referring to and would teach them in greater depth. Revelation is a vision to John, from an Angel, from Christ, from his Father. So, discerning that vision is… complicated and one of those matters that I have to keep seeking .
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Porter, thank you for taking the time to reply. These are bewildering times we
live in but we do have the privilege of knowing that Our Lord is doing a strange
work on the earth.
Isaiah 28:21.’…For the Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth
as in the valley of Gibeon that He May do His work , His strange work and bring
to pass His act , His strange act.
We know God is changing humanity from what we are into what He is. We know
why . I think what we don’t quite understand yet is the how.
I would like to address the scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and I think Ray uses the
Concordant version here.
Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away
together with them in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.
I believe this is talking about a literal meeting as taught by Ray . Maybe our mods
or anyone else who knows exactly where this is taught can help us find it. I know I studied it and I have seen it being discussed in many posts . But did you notice.
It’s the living who are SURVIVING. Surviving what?
From the Rapture Paper. Here is what Ray had to say.
“ We are not being rescued out of indignation today. But those who are ALIVE
at the COMING indignation will be rescued out of it. None of God’s saints are
appointed to indignation ( wrath) and only those ALIVE at His actual coming
will be rescued( Greek, dragged away from danger) from it.
There are two vivifiications after Christ the first fruit. Those who are Christs in His presence and thereafter the consummation ( 1Cor. 15: 22-23}
All believers are in the first catagory. ( At the unveiling 2 Thes. 1:7-8)
Whether we are alive or dead when Christ returns , we will be snatched away
meeting the Lord in the air or being resurrected from the dead.
Drowsers will not be locked out of the kingdom .
The parable of the ten virgins is relevant to this study also.
May our Lord give us wisdom , eyes to see and ears to hear and endurance
to overcome the things coming on the world.
There is more I want to discuss but I have to rest those old hands for awhile.
Octoberose, I gave up trying to convince people the truth.
The blind can’t see. And when Jesus returns, will He find faith on the earth? No
very little.
More to come, gotta eat something. God Bless you all.
Porter , I want you to know that I appreciate your fellowship as I do all
who love the truth. Jesus is the truth. Jesus is everything. 💕
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Rose, I agree with Pamela. It's pointless to try to convince anyone of the things we believe here, no matter how much Scriptural proof we have. Even if you do prove them wrong, you might still lose the sale, as Ray liked to say. I've had better success sharing the truth with Universalist than I did sharing with “infernalists”. Even then, those that believed were few and far in between.
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The Parable of the ten virgins.
From the Rapture Paper Ray explains.
Being sober- minded / awake.
Matt.25:7…. then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
Luke 12:35……keep your lamps burning, vs. 36 and be like men who are
waiting for their master.
1 Peter 1:13 …….. Therfore preparing your minds for action, and being sober minded
set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of
Jesus Christ.
Luke 12:43.’…..’Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when
He comes.
Drowsers will not be locked out of the Kingdom.
1:Thes. 5:10, ………wether we be watching or drowsing, we should be living
at the same time together with Him.
This scripture speaks of death as sleep , dozens of times.
Paul is merely mirroring the words of his Lord.
The woman in Matt. 9:18 had died yet Jesus said that she was drowsing,vs.24.
Paul said,” those who do drowse , drowse at night.
Since we are not of the night or darkness , we do not drowse. Those who are
not watchful concerning the things of the Lord are like drunks who drink and
sleep off their drunkenness at night. That’s the spiritual application.
We are to remain sober.
Acts 20:31…. Paul admonishes his disciples to watch. In Corth. 16:13 , Paul
commands , ,,, watch and Col. 4:2 …. In prayer, perserving , watching.
In the parable of the ten virgins , they all nod and drowsed.
The five that were locked out was because they were stupid
and didn’t buy any oil.
Yes, the many called and few chosen.
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Great find Pamela! More and more, it's starting to seem like the parable of the Ten Virgins is pointing to the few being resurrected to life and the many being resurrected to judgment. It really is all one.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The story of Noah's Flood makes a bit more sense to me now. Only a specific part of the earth's region was flooded. And we know from Ray that the earth represents the many in the Church.
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This is interesting and maybe another piece of the “puzzle”?
Joe 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and dense overcast, like the dawn spreading over the mountains; a great and strong people appears, such as never existed in ages past and never will again in all the generations to come.
Is it me, or is Jesus quoting Joel 2:2?
Mat 24:21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!
I can't help but to think that Jesus is referring to His army of chosen saints as “great tribulation”. If you read that entire chapter in Joel 2, it indicates an Army that is quick, efficient and disciplined. I was immediately reminded of the song “when the saints go marching in”. I wonder if Joel 2 was the inspiration for the lyrics of that song.
I couldn't help notice the similarities between the following verses.
Mat 24:22 Unless those days (those days of great tribulation) were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.
Rom 9:27 And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, "Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.
Rom 9:28 For the LORD will carry out His sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality."
Rom 9:29 And Isaiah said the same thing in another place: "If the LORD of Heaven's Armies had not spared a few of our children, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Gomorrah."
Any thoughts?
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Well, I think great tribulation is great trouble. Something not pleasant. But, if you’re right then you’ve been given something that is very special to hold onto and to share. It’s a whole new way of looking at it that’s for sure.
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I don't know if it's correct, hence me putting it out there. I guess I'm just looking for assurance and a better way to look at Mat 24:21,22.
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Rev.7:9……a great multitude that no one could number…….
Rev.7:9…….clothed in white robes….. ( white symbol for righteousness)
Vs.13 ……. Then one of the elders addressed me saying,” Who are these
clothed in white robes and from where have they come?
Vs.14….. I said to him,” Sir , you know. And he said to me.”
“ These are the ones COMING OUT of ( the) great tribulation.
They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the
Lamb.”
There is not THE great tribulation. But tribulation/ affliction on God’s Elect .
Rev.19:14…. and the armies of heaven(s) arrayed in fine linen , white and pure
were following Him on white horses.
I understand this scripture to be talking about Jesus return with His army,
( raised incorruptible, ) and
His saints, who are removed from the earth , whether they are alive or asleep
in the grave) to meet the Lord in the air and begin their reign with Christ.
Dan.12:1 At that Time shall arise Michael, the Great Prince who has charge of
your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as never has been since
there was a nation till that time. BUT AT THAT TIME, your people shall be delivered,
everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
The book of the life of the Lamb , is how I heard Ray teach it.
See Jer. 30:7, Mark 13:19, Matt 24: 21, Rev. 16:18, awesome scripture this one.
I hope this helps. May God Bless you all in this present evil time.
Hang in there , endure to the end.
The Gospel of the Kingdom. Ray explains mush of this right towards the end .
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Thanks, Pamela, that helps a lot. I've read all of Ray's papers that deal with the word tribulation, and so I strongly agree that the Elect are appointed to tribulation. I suppose the addition of the word “great” before the word “tribulation” is throwing me off. More than that, I'm having a hard time believing that what the world is experiencing now is the same spiritual tribulation that the Elect is experiencing now are the same thing.
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Porter, I too understand our tribulation to be mainly or mostly spiritual in nature (not to put words in your mouth). I am not negating the physical aspect to tribulation that it seems many many scriptures imply, but more and more I am unsure how the “tribulation” will unfold for the elect and the world.
I used to always think like most there would be huge cataclysmic events. While I can’t totally rule that out, the more I think and study, and how remembering how. Ray really emphasized how Christ’s words are Spiritual, especially Revelation, I am tending to think it is spiritual battle/events scripture is talking about. Now don’t paint me as a heretic 😀😀 just yet!
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Nah your fine Dynamo, that doesn't make you a heretic. I, too, understand that the physical has an effect on the spiritual condition of the Elect. Nor am I denying the possibility of a literal earth ending event. I just hate it when the Church uses the things happening in the world to try to scare everyone.
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I only care if the church is scaring people because of hell - and since I’m one of the few here who go to ‘church ‘ I can tell you end times do not come up often where I am .
I also think that the New Testament speaks of martyrs of the church and they didn’t become martyrs from getting their symbolic bodies killed . Could these be people long dead and not in our future ? Yes. Revelation was a vision - but that doesn’t make it untrue . We still wrestle with what it all means because it Is a vision. But I think what is ahead is overwhelming and difficult for many people .
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When I think of the Church, I think of the entire body of Christ, regardless of where they are. I've seen many over the years on this very forum try to scare people about what is happening in the world. To worsen it, they use Jesus' parables in a literal sense to justify the fearmongering. Nevertheless, Jesus said that the many called and few chosen are to “grow together”.
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We have no need to dwell in fear here because we know that God will be All in all. Why is fear needed ? Is it fearmongering to believe that the transition from this eon to the next is difficult ? I don’t think so. Be prepared in season and out of season because the days are evil.
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We have no need to dwell in fear here because we know that God will be All in all. Why is fear needed ? Is it fearmongering to believe that the transition from this eon to the next is difficult ? I don’t think so. Be prepared in season and out of season because the days are evil.
Octoberose,
I agree with your recent two statements.
To explain, consider God's stated purpose in bringing the flood of Noe.
It was to bring a new start to the people of the earth. To cover or bury the evil that had been created by the people of that age so that it would not be seen any more.
The transition from this evil age to the next age of grace is similar as it will eliminate the evil persons from the earth and provide a new start for those underage persons to be cleansed from the error they have learned in this evil age.
God is following the plan He enacted in Numbers to hold the sinning, cowardly adults in the desert forty years until only the children under 20 still remained alive to enter the promised land.
Numbers 13 and 14
So there will be great destruction in the earth just before our Lord returns to rule and make peace.
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The Kingdom of God is at hand...that really is good news