bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lferretj on January 26, 2009, 07:16:57 PM
-
Hello,
I went to visit my girlfriend on the coast for a day and we got to talking and she told me her theology, she is a christian but believes that anyone who hasn't heard the gospel no matter what age will automatically go to heaven. She defines believers as those who have heard the message and choose to follow Christ whereas Non-believers are only those who have heard the message and choose not to follow Christ. I thought this was some age of accountability teaching but she includes even adults who haven't heard the "Good News." Anyway has anyone else come across this particular belief pattern and does Ray teach on this at all. All I can think of is to disprove Free Will which would throw all this to the wind. Sorry but if that were true it would be better to not hear the gospel at all and go to heaven than to hear it and then reject it. So what would be the point of preaching and teaching, if their better off if they don't hear it? That's a rhetorical question as we know the answer but any insight into how this particular doctrine came to be would be helpful.
lferretj
-
lferretj,
hello. ray addresses one of the questions you posed (regarding those who have never heard the Gospel) in his letter to dr. james kennedy which critiques dr. kennedy's sermon denying God's responsibility to save all the africans. if you scroll down through that critique (or better yet, read or re-read the whole letter) you will see dr. kennedy's analogy and ray's rightly divided truths from the scriptures. with regards to the other question you posed, you can type age of accountability into the search box at the top of the general discussions section and you will find different posts on this topic.
claudia
-
hi again lferretj,
if you type in "what happens to babies" in the search box on the general discussions section you can find some helpful, valuable information regarding this particular question you posed on your topic.
happy reading!,
claudia
-
... Sorry but if that were true it would be better to not hear the gospel at all and go to heaven than to hear it and then reject it. So what would be the point of preaching and teaching, if their better off if they don't hear it? ...
lferretj
Hello,
I think that question you asked is the perfect way to start: If Heaven and Hell were real, and those who never heard of Jesus Christ will go to Heaven, then why preach it? In fact, it this were all true, than it would've been better if Christ had never come to earth, never died for our sins, and never resurrected from the dead. That way NOBODY would ever hear of Jesus Christ, and therefore EVERYBODY would go to heaven!!
That seems like a good way to 'start off' at least to get that person thinking a little. From there I would start with the Scriptures that show that Jesus Christ "is the Savior of the World"--I John 4:14, and that He "takes away the sins of the world"--John 1:29, and that "with God all things are possible"--Matthew 19:25-26; Jeremiah 32:27.
This will help begin to restore that persons believe and faith IN GOD, and rather than in themselves. From there you can go into 'free' will or 'hell'. Make sure to have the definition of 'free will', because most people just don't know what it is. [neither did I, before I came to this site]
May God guide you,
Daywalker.
-
thanks for the replies
cjwood- i did the searches and they helped clear up where the age of accountability could have been conjured up but the Dr. Kennedy letter was written to critisize if those who hadn't heard went to Hell not Heaven as my friend contends.
Daywalker - I did bring up the point you mentioned but if was futile, she didn't have an answer and said it wasn't her place to question God's will. As for the Savior of the World verses, which I showed her at least three--she got stuck on free will and that god desires to save all but people must choose because God doesn't want to force anyone to love Him. Each verse I showed her she used the same excuse to refute it. As for talking about free will she seemed pretty adamant and didn't want to hear anything to the contrary. She did say she was willing to research her faith so I sent her to Ray's site and she promised to read it and check it out. We will see what happens.
-
thanks for the replies
cjwood- i did the searches and they helped clear up where the age of accountability could have been conjured up but the Dr. Kennedy letter was written to critisize if those who hadn't heard went to Hell not Heaven as my friend contends.
Daywalker - I did bring up the point you mentioned but if was futile, she didn't have an answer and said it wasn't her place to question God's will. As for the Savior of the World verses, which I showed her at least three--she got stuck on free will and that god desires to save all but people must choose because God doesn't want to force anyone to love Him. Each verse I showed her she used the same excuse to refute it. As for talking about free will she seemed pretty adamant and didn't want to hear anything to the contrary. She did say she was willing to research her faith so I sent her to Ray's site and she promised to read it and check it out. We will see what happens.
Hello again,
Next time you get into a similar conversation, and she says that people must choose on their own, show her these verses and see what her response is:
John 15:16: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you...
Philippians 2:13: For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure
But if she seems uninterested, then it's better to back off, rather than 'pushing the Truth' at her...
I have conversations with my wife and mom often. My wife gets it, but then she gets tired of hearing it after a while... My mom gets it, but then later on she forgets most of what I showed her. The important part is believing that GOD ALONE is in control of everything. This is why people don't believe, because they don't really believe that HE IS.
A little here, a little there.. If God has willed it, she will come to understand. If not now, then she will in the next life. All in God's timing, not ours.
God Bless You,
Daywalker.
-
Hello,
I went to visit my girlfriend on the coast for a day and we got to talking and she told me her theology, she is a christian but believes that anyone who hasn't heard the gospel no matter what age will automatically go to heaven. She defines believers as those who have heard the message and choose to follow Christ whereas Non-believers are only those who have heard the message and choose not to follow Christ.
lferretj
Her definition of believers and non-believers makes sense. After all, how can someone be a non-believer of something they have never heard? However, where is her scripture that supports her belief that those who never heard automatically go to heaven?
I have heard people answer "well we don't know if their hearts were converted just before they died" to the question "what happens to those who never heard or heard but never believed?" IMO the answer is a cop out because some people (some I actually know) don't want to think that non-believers burn in their fictitious hell. Rather, they appease themselves by giving the above stated answer. It eases their mind so that they can hold onto their hell doctrine and at the same time release themselves from feeling bad about it. Yet, they don't have any scripture to back it up. It's a farce of an answer.
Thank you God for opening up my eyes and ears. I truly pity those whose minds are yet in darkness and I will rejoice in the day that God will be ALL in ALL.
Eileen
-
Hi lferretJ,
Did you ask what interpretation does the person have to have of Christ? It seems if one is to believe in Christ they would need to be told the right meaning of Him. The reason I say this is because a lot of Christians tell you that all you have to do is believe and your "saved." Well, what is it exaclty the right belief?
And does she include everyone of the Christian faiths included in this also? And if not, then why does someone differing in opinion now cancel them out for being "saved." I mean after all plenty of people believe in Christ and say they follow Him. Usually this is where everything changes. I have told people I believe in Christ and then lets say they learn I don't believe in "hell" well then I am a follower of demons. ? ? ?
-
Let's all hold a rally in the streets with big signs saying "you evil missionairies are sending Africans and such to hell!" Remember, if they aren't preached to then they go to heaven. How dare these evil men and women go and tell those pagans about christ so that they will now have the opportunity to reject the message? They were given a free ticket to heaven for never hearing about Christ. And what are the odds that those people will accept the words of some foreign loon to begin with? They are the reason that Africans will go to hell. And those satelites that they have over there? Yep, TBNs sending them to the fire as well. Now I guess god will have to send all of the missionairies and TBN whores to hell for giving so many the opportunity to deny christ and go to hell.
-
lferretj you said
I went to visit my girlfriend on the coast for a day and we got to talking and she told me her theology, she is a christian but believes that anyone who hasn't heard the gospel no matter what age will automatically go to heaven.
You need to spend time reading here
Perform the Ray test
Have her show you two scriptures that absolutly show this is true.
In the meantime you find two that show the absoluelty the opposite
(that no flesh or bone can enter heaven …..and many others) I do not have time to search these but perhaps others on the board can add.
If all Scripture is inspired from God and God will not lie.....then
Her scriptures cannot be true, there are many other holes in her argument and whoever she is getting such dung from.
Here are the transcripts of Ray but they are also audio if you prefer to listen to the
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html
This one explains that they lack understanding of the concept of grace….it is a noun and verb…if God is making us in his image….he has to work in you….those whom he does not change here …..will be changed then…not in heaven but in corrupt bodies.....all knees will bow
Here are two excellent resource for you to bone up on …..
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html
Musicman....very funny.....they are separating them from the unbelievers but the blind are leading the blind....but no man knows who God will call out of babylon. But your logic is impeccable....and shows another aspect that their doctrine's is a contradiction
beloved
-
Hey check out this guy. He seems to be thinking along the lines of what I've been saying. He's a real hoot.
*links not allowed*
-
Hello,
Thanks for all the replies--Well it so happens that my friend sent me a long e-mail asking me all sorts of questions ranging from "What are you saved from if not from Hell?" to "Do you believe Christ died?" Apparantly she took everything I said I twisted it around and she thought I had really gone off the deep end. After answering all her questions and reassuring her I didn't indeed fall off the deep end, 12 pages later using scriptures as my guide I seemed to get across the basics of what Ray/Scriptures teaches. After reading it she said she was relieved and very interested in this. She has lots more questions and is very open to talking back and forth on certain topics. I ask that everyone would say a prayer for myself and my friend that I would be able to answer correctly with scriptures and that the seed that was planted would start to bloom. I'll keep you all updated and probably ask for help on any hard topics she brings up. Thanks again
lferret
-
That's a great turn of events! Glad to hear that she's interested. Keep us posted ;)! Thanks for sharing. You have a way with words; a great gift from God!
Love in Christ,
Vangie
-
Hi lferret,
That is great to here you are having an productive exchange with your friend now. At this point since she seems sincerely interested in this truth, why don't you just give her the link to the BT site. This will give her an enormous amount of info, as you know, then you will have much less to explain.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Hey Kat,
I've referred her to the BT site but she is still a little bit skeptical of the teaching. It seems to work better for now if I just cut and paste some of Ray's work that directly answers her questions, with a reference of course. I think she got scared away from using the site because of some reviews she read about Ray. I'm hoping she'll warm up to the site soon and begin to use it as a study tool. However, It is fun though to research her questions and have an answer, it only confirms to me my new found beliefs. As I was writing my reply to her inquiry it amazed me what scriptures the Lord brought to the forefront of my mind--from reading the Scriptures, and Ray's site, and even those I had heard in Church. I've learned so much in the last 6 months and can't stop reading! Just the other day I was reading Hebrews and found a verse that summed up nicely why Christ died, not to save us from Hell, but to save us from death.
Hebrews 2:14Since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. (NIV)
Thank you all for your encouragement and prayers,
Liesha
-
I think she got scared away from using the site because of some reviews she read about Ray.
I hope she also searched/read any reviews of the individuals writing the reviews about Ray.
-
Hi lferret,
Well it does seem like you are doing a really good job working with her, good for you. I know what you mean about; However, It is fun though to research her questions and have an answer, it only confirms to me my new found beliefs. I feel the same way answering questions here :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
I think she got scared away from using the site because of some reviews she read about Ray.
Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
Steve
-
lferretj,
Whatever you do, with Love and Patience is the only right way. Your reports are on
the right track to let your friend know you care enough to not quit. Do not try to
convert her, that is not yours to do; but if she will talk, then keep the lines open so
when the time comes you will still be there.
You have had very good counsel from all here; one more piece from me if you will.
Joh 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
He (Jesus Christ) Did for us, do not quit unless she tells you to.
george. :)
-
I think she got scared away from using the site because of some reviews she read about Ray.
Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
Steve
I read a few of those so-called "reviews" about Ray online. They're exactly like the many stupid emails he receives. Nothing but slanderous comments, with absolutely NOTHING whatsoever against him. Not even a single Scriptural Argument against any of his teachings.
In one "review" of Ray's article "Is Everlasting Scriptural" I read, after several paragraphs of nothing but evil deceptions, and slander, the writer said that he agreed with what Ray said! ??? But that he [the writer] came to that conclusion by true scholarship versus Ray by his emotions. [Apparently, it had NOTHING to do with GOD, because he doesn't mention Him once!!] And the ONE thing that he kept saying about Ray's article, was that Ray used material from "outdated" Scholars [which apparently means before 1900], and that he should use more "recent" Scholarship.
I kept thinking to myself, [1] what the hell does that prove? and [2] every Bible and Concordance I have is at least a hundred+ years old.. my King James was written in the 1700s, maybe [according to the 'writer'] I should just throw that away too?
I was sooo tempted to email this guy, and nail him! The SELF-RIGHTEOUS PRIDE oozed out of this guy, it was so blatant! But after a few minutes, a little prayer, and me calming down a little, I decided against it. It wasn't WORTH IT!
Why should I take the time to attempt to open this guy's eyes, when he obviously doesn't want them to be??
Matthew 7:6: Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Truly, this knowledge that we have received from GOD, is better than DIAMONDS, SILVER, or any physical treasure; not to be shared with just anyone!
- Daywalker
-
Thanks again for all your comments.
George: Your comment made me giggle a little because my friend said she was so interested she would probably bug me so much that I would have to tell her to stop asking questions. I don't think I could ever tell her not to search out the truth. The funny thing is I thought going into it she would totally reject it but the Lord works in mysterious ways and if He opens her eyes to see, what a blessing to be used by God. As for trying to convert her, that was never my intention--I only wanted her to know where I would be coming from if she ever asked for advice from me, it would feel like a lie to me if she asked a spiritual question assuming the answer would be based on her(my old) beliefs.
Daywalker and Steve: I've read some of Ray's "reviews" also and also don't find their arguments very convincing or accurate. As for my friend I'm hoping she is not a "dog" or "pig," I'm sure I'll find out how willing she is to learn as we communicate more.
As for now she is visiting family for a week, so she says she won't be able to get back with me till she gets back. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted and hopefully she will join this family soon and ask us all her questions herself. That is my prayer.
Liesha
-
I think she got scared away from using the site because of some reviews she read about Ray.
Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
Steve
I read a few of those so-called "reviews" about Ray online. They're exactly like the many stupid emails he receives. Nothing but slanderous comments, with absolutely NOTHING whatsoever against him. Not even a single Scriptural Argument against any of his teachings.
...
- Daywalker
Not only Ray's detractors, but the teachers of the false doctrines, too. I tend to oscillate between "amused" and "disgusted" on their writings. I am getting better at being "amused" because I used to be just like them, and still would be, but for God's grace. For example, I did a review of several online "proofs" of free-will last week. They all made exactly the same mistakes that I used to make. They either don't read all the words, or they imagine words that aren't there.
Steve
-
.... Daywalker and Steve: I've read some of Ray's "reviews" also and also don't find their arguments very convincing or accurate. As for my friend I'm hoping she is not a "dog" or "pig," I'm sure I'll find out how willing she is to learn as we communicate more.
As for now she is visiting family for a week, so she says she won't be able to get back with me till she gets back. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted and hopefully she will join this family soon and ask us all her questions herself. That is my prayer.
Liesha
Hey Liesha,
The fact that she's at least willing to communicate with you on these subjects tells me she's not. Usually, these type of people just simply refuse to even discuss it, instead they just turn to slander, and call you a "heretic" without even bothering to check the Scriptures for themselves.
Once your eyes and ears are opened, everything starts to become so simple, and it can be frustrating when you try to share it with people, because you expect them to "get it" as you did. I'll keep you and your friend in prayer. Hopefully, if God is willing, He will open her eyes and ears, as He has done for us. ;D
- Daywalker.