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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mari_et_pere on June 18, 2007, 01:20:15 PM
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My wife came home from church yesterday and told me how great it had been. She said the song service was beautiful and annointed. She said she could feel the presence of God in there. She said it was just amazing.
So I'm left thinking "ugh, I can't say anything but 'oh that's nice, babe.'" I don't want to say that. I want to say "no way, why would He be there?" Am I wrong? Half of me thinks so, half of me doesn't.
Next week my brother in law (her sister's husband) is preaching, so I'm basically automatically expected to be there just because of that, which honestly makes me angry because church isn't about being there for a certain person. But anyway, maybe I'll go, but I feel guilty for going. Imagine that! Guilty for going to church. On the flip side, I feel bad if I don't because my wife is wanting me to go. She's good-hearted and she's got the best of intentions and doesn't realize all that I believe. I'm starting to think this will never ever end. :(
Anyway I got off track yet again! What do you guys think about the song service that she told me about? I know how I feel about it, but what about you all?
Matt
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Hi Matt,
One think I have learned is to never limit God to anything, which means of course that we must not likewise restrict him. Either or, what your wife experienced was of God in one form or another.
As for feeling bad about going to a church, I wouldn't. Is the church anymore evil, derogatory, than where you work, any club that you go too or for that matter the super market you by your food?
Coming out of the church does not necessarily mean come out of the building; rather it means coming out of it's teachings. Which I my friend can see that you have very well.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
I am thinking that you are very well equipped to attend the service. Not to learn something new in regard to truth, but rather how to perhaps go over what was said with your wife withthe truth that you have been given.
As for the song service, only God can read the hearts and intent of those present. If their hearts were genuinely seeking and praising God, then perhaps God used this moment to illustrate the difference between heart felt praise and man spelled doctrine. Should not the feelings be the same regardless. Perhpas this would be a very good question to ask your wife. Why does she feel the song serve was so amazing?
Keep us posted :)
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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Matt
Many of the words to praise songs are scriptural. Yours and my understanding of those scriptures is very different than the praise teams singing them yet they are the sriptures and are the truth. I enjoy them. You have left your first love mentally, physically visiting her occassionly does not show you accept her. Hearing her mistakes and mentally rebutting them
scripturally can also strengthen your faith.
Askseeknock
Charlie o
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Of course, you're both right. :)
Darren, you ask why she thinks the song service was so amazing. She just kept saying the presence of God was there, that she could feel the Holy Spirit moving.
Charlie, you're right! Hearing the mistakes and mentally rebutting them can strengthen faith! That's an excellent point and it's well taken. :)
And both of you made excellent points about limiting God. What was I thinking? :o Who am I to say God's spirit wouldn't be felt somewhere? I'm sure the kids that were singing did mean it, and probably felt honored to take the place of the praise and worship team for a Sunday. Shame on me for judging something that I didn't even witness! :-[
Thanks for your perspectives. Points very well taken indeed.
Matt
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I liked those points also. I know I will have to go back to the building when the twins get "dedicated"-whatever that means.
Matt, you have shown you have much affection for Jennifer. Go with her, smile, and make nice w/ brother in law.
I used to experience those kinds of worship service, then I didn't and was almost bored. Did the service change or me?? Me! Sometimes I felt so in love w/ Jesus and those songs just really touched me. Probably all in the flesh, tho. Depending on my mood at the time.
We can't say that Jesus wasn't in the midst of people who honestly love Him. He answered prayers even when I was in Babylon, and I felt His presence at times (once when I was robbed, and another time after a car accident).
Your wife is walking her walk w/ the Lord just as we all did. When and if he chooses to show her the truth about churchianity it will probably be because you showed her love and support.
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Gena, you reminded me of times that I felt His presence even when I was in church. I thought I had grown so much. Now I make the old me look weak and puny, and I still AM weak and puny in respect to what some others are!
I know you guys are right. Thanks for some much needed edification. :)
Matt
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I really miss the worship music. I would like to go to church and praise and worship and then go home. I wouldn't do that though. I have alot of worship music on CD's. Some of my favorites are Phil Driscoll "I Exalt Thee" , many of the Integrity music like, Glorify thy Name, Holy Ground, Sing Allehia to the Lord, and many more. Many of them do not speak about doctrine, simply just praise.
Inez
I am not new here but very seldom post. I do read here everyday and have been reading Ray's site since 2002.
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Hey Matt & Gena,
I stopped attending church a year ago this month... at the time it wasn't hard at all to walk away from all of the mess and confusion of what was going on at my home church at the time, but it became difficult over the following six months because the people I loved and cared about wanted me to come to hear them preach or sing, to be there for a special occasion or celebration of some sort.
I attended sporadically from June until around Christmas time... because I didn't want to dissapoint or hurt my loved ones.
Probably the most difficult situation that has presented itself is that my girlfriend still attends church and in the past asked me often to go with her for special occasions and such.
And for awhile, I did... but at the beginning of this year I realized, that for me, to go back to please someone else was placing their carnal desires above what God has called me to do and that was to come out.
It's been difficult... but overtime my friends, family and even my girlfriend have come to understand that it is something I am not going to budge on. I've had alot of very honest conversations with them and told them very frankly that my decision to not attend church was based on the scriptures and for the sole purpose of pleasing God.
Oddly enough, it use to be really important to them that I go... but now they don't even ask. In a very strange way I believe I have earned their respect.
Sorry for interrupting the conversation, just thought I would add my two cents.
God's Peace.
Josh
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Josh, you didn't interupt. You added to it! Sounds like you and me have the same thing going on. I respect you for standing your ground and not budging! Kudos!
And Inez, why not post more? It might sound funny but you get a lot out of joining, and dialoguing back and forth.
Matt
p.s. is "dialoguing" a word? ;D
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Hi Matt,
I am trying to get this figure out in my mind. I can see no harm in going to church with your wife to support her on a special occasion. But for me, going would be a rare occasion.
Darren you said,
As for the song service, only God can read the hearts and intent of those present. If their hearts were genuinely seeking and praising God, then perhaps God used this moment to illustrate the difference between heart felt praise and man spelled doctrine.
The Christian church does not have the Holy Spirit and so is carnal minded, how could their carnal hearts be "genuinely seeking and praising God" ???
Rom 8:7 "because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be."
I do not believe Christ works in the church, and when He gives us His Holy Spirit, we soon want to leave the church, because it is so contrary to God's Spirit.
But that is not saying that they do not feel inspired by the song service. There is a lot of gifted singers in the world. But I don't believe those that are carnal minded can praise God.
Mat 15:8 "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
v. 9 But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
The church is where Satan has his throne, maybe it's not a good idea to hang around there. This is an excerpt form the Lake of Fire no. 10.
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -----------------------------------------------------------
THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED
Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:
"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10).
"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13).
Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church.. His synagogue is in the Church.
And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Inez,
Well thank you for sharing your thoughts with us this time. :)
I agree, the words of a song only convey a message. It is the heart and the soul of a person that determines if they believe or could not care less.
What is often lost is that the truth is still the truth even if told by a known liar. Reverse this, and words of praise are still words of praise, regardless of the motive behind the one who orignally penned them.
Love to you in Christ.
Darren
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Kat,
When you say
"I do not believe Christ works in the church, and when He gives us His Holy Spirit, we soon want to leave the church, because it is so contrary to God's Spirit." do you mean the building or the people? It is important to make distinction between a building and a church " congregation of believers". Therefore I am not sure you are right by stating categorically that God Spirit was not there at the time and that Mari-et-pere wife did not experience it.
So I will echo Darren quote: "As for the song service, only God can read the hearts and intent of those present. If their hearts were genuinely seeking and praising God, then perhaps God used this moment to illustrate the difference between heart felt praise and man spelled doctrine". We should avoid limiting God to what he can do or will do at a given point.
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Kat you wrote in response to me:
The Christian church does not have the Holy Spirit and so is carnal minded, how could their carnal hearts be "genuinely seeking and praising God"
Kat, I am happy to say that you are saddly mistaken. :) There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church. Why is this? Could it be that they have enough of the Spirit to know that something is not right, but not enough to have the strength to leave. May I ask you, where did your disernment and strength come from. Surely it was by God and not something you just decided upon. Did it happen in an instant or over time? :)
You then wrote:
I do not believe Christ works in the church, and when He gives us His Holy Spirit, we soon want to leave the church, because it is so contrary to God's Spirit. But that is not saying that they do not feel inspired by the song service. There is a lot of gifted singers in the world. But I don't believe those that are carnal minded can praise God.
Who said anything about Christ working in the church? Christ works in the hearts of those he calls. :)
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
I can honestly say that God was sowing seeds of his Spirit in me for years, I wandered aimlessly from church to church in the hope I could find some semblance of sanity / truth. God took perhaps a very round-about way with me in bring me to the truth. For his Spirit was well intrenched in me years before finding Bible Truths, even while still attending various churches. The hypocrisy, the blantant lies and fanciful beliefs were as clear as a smile on a baby's face. Finally, I just gave up going to church. Maybe God gave me a gentle nudge; I like to think that He waited until I grew so bored and fed up with the untruth, that I walked out myself (under his direction of course) :)
Bottom line Kat, is that when I was singing those songs. I was singing them to the God that I knew was in my heart. Not the God that they spoke of from the pulpit.
I find it kind of apalling to think that you believe that EVERY person that is in the church today has a 100% carnal mind and not a sinlge atom's worth of the Spirit of Truth. God measures his Spirit to whom he chooses in the amount he wants. :)
You then write:
The church is where Satan has his throne, maybe it's not a good idea to hang around there.
I will agree with you that it is not the place that one should habitually frequent, yet what Power has Satan got over God's own?
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
How is it that many whom come from the church and find BT, praise Ray to the highest, if they did not know the truth when they saw it. They knew the truth, that is why they were searching, all by the power and will of our Gracious God. :)
Love to you in the Salvation of our Christ,
Darren
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My Darren what big teeth you have!!!!!!!!!
Randy
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Moderators, If you feel that my post is to harsh, and / or deceitful please delete it :)
Love to you all in Christ
Darren
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So what about the cults? I have attended services of other religions and the congregation sings songs praising God. How about the Mormons who claim that their church is the true church because they feel God in their bosom.
I have friends in the music industry ( pros ) that attend those big mega churches and get paid for singing and playing. They are not believers yet they get into it.
I will share this with you. Being in the music industry and working in studios- I have had it told me from a major Christian celebrity that the Christian record companies were worse then the secular. And from engineers who worked on Christian records of how un-Christianlike the folk were. It is a business and church has become a business. I think Jesus would have overturned the tables at the temple no matter what song they were singing.
So I have enough on my table. I know I am in process. And so are all those in Christendom. We are all at different point but the good news is God is working in all of us. I am just blessed in coming out of Babylon. And it is by seeing all the craziness and nuttiness around me that was means to an end in God bringing me to search and arrive here at BT.
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Yellowstone said :
Bottom line Kat, is that when I was singing those songs. I was singing them to the God that I knew was in my heart. Not the God that they spoke of from the pulpit.
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mrsnacks response
I believe you. But is it possible that the God they are singing from their hearts is not the God of Scripture ? This is all so subjective it seems.We don't see behind the scenes. A non believer can sing a praise song and look like he / she means it. I sung many songs and had no idea what I was singing. I just mouthed the words. I know many do the same thing.
Most in Christendom are sincere but sincerely wrong. The God they sing about is a God of contradictions. A God that sends unbelievers to hell. A God that is three persons making one God. A God who claims to be the Savior of the world and in reality only saves some.
Remember that there will be many saying Lord, Lord didn't we do this or that in your name. And what was the Lord's response ? Depart from me - I never knew you.
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Yellowstone says:
There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church.
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mrsnacks response
I don't think you know or any of us. God sees the heart of man. Man looks on the outside. Only He has access. We see the surface. Church service lasts an hour and a half. You are not with these people the rest of the week. Shakespere said that "God has given us faces and then we wear masks." Much of what goes on in Christendom is mask wearing. I know - I have been there and done that. I see the pretending.I am sure you have. We see the actions. I had 2 assistant pastors in one church that didn't like me at all for my beliefs. It was so obvious. This I knew for a fact. I confronted the head pastor and he covered for them. But they gave me a Holy Spirit hug and smile on Sundays. And they sang and worshipped God with anger and resentment in their hearts.
God sees the heart.
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Yellowstone says
There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church.
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mrsnacks says:
I respectfully disagree. Few are chosen. If this was true I wouldn't have been kicked out of the churches I attended. Do you think for one minute Ray or anyone of us would be welcomed to preach in the churches today? Nothing has changed. Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago and if He were around today He would be killed by Christendom.
But I do see your point Darren. If God is the one who opens the eyes - I wonder why it took so long for Him to open mine. His ways are strange.
Church today has become a social club. The teens I know attend for the most part go to church for the activities and because of their parents. The rest of the week ask them if they spend time in the Word or in prayer. How can you turn down pizza night or film night. OR even the great pot lucks. The church I attend had banana split day. It was fantastic. And on Sunday mornings - donuts and fresh coffee.
Makes you want to go even if the teachings are wrong. :-\
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Hi Prosizz,
The Christian church is the congregation/people. Does God's Spirit visit where Satan has His throne? I don't think so.
Hi Darren,
I find it kind of apalling to think that you believe that EVERY person that is in the church today has a 100% carnal mind and not a sinlge atom's worth of the Spirit of Truth. God measures his Spirit to whom he chooses in the amount he wants.
We do only recieve an ernest of God's Spirit, but we become a new creature and we are no longer of this world. We do not stay among those that do not believe as we do. That's why it says, "come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord..."
2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
v. 17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
v. 18 and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
Those called do not have God's Spirit and can not worship in spirit and truth.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
v. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
v. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
These excerpts From Ray paper 'WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?' The chosen few are the temple where the Spirit of God dwells, not the Christian churches.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------------------------------------------
"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).
That’s CHRIST, Jesus is "The Word of God" (John 1:1). The world often treats God’s saints as if they were heretics. Only those who possess the Name of Jesus Christ truly "know" what the name is and all that it represents. Not all who speak of the Name, have the name "written" within them. Men’s lips are often far far from their heart.
I already covered how that "name" is representative of THE PERSON WHO BEARS IT. To believe in THE NAME of Jesus Christ is to believe ALL THAT JESUS IS! And the reason we have a "new" name is because all whom are "IN Christ" are "NEW creatures [new creations]: old things are passed away; behold, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" ( II Cor. 5:17). We not only have a new name, but we become and ARE A NEW NAME as well.
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Oh that we would have ears to SPIRITUALLY hear:
"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17).
This is the new, converted, believer’s life "IN Christ." And when God comes to judge the world, we will have no fear of judgment for we are being judged now "IN Christ." Highlight this verse in your Bibles:
"And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and He that dwells in love dwells IN GOD, and GOD IN HIM. Herein is your love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: BECAUSE [get ready; here it comes…] As He [Jesus Christ] IS [right now, this minute] SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17).
And just how is that?
We just read it—because we live IN CHRIST, and Christ lives IN US!!! Our names are written in "the book of THE LIFE OF THE LAMB" only if WE TOO LIVE "THE life OF the Lamb," IN THE LAMB! "Abide in Me, and I in you" (John 15:4). I pray for God to give you spiritual eyes to see these grand Truths that have been hid from the blinded eyes of the Church today.
A stern warning: How many does Jesus say through His Spirit, will He "…not blot out his name out of the book of life?" Let’s read it:
"Thou has A FEW names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy" (Rev. 3:4).
Dear readers it is always, just the FEW who will be in Christ in His glory in the first resurrection. All of the rest, ALL of them, will come up in the Second Resurrection, and white throne judgment with its "lake of fire and second death."
I feel it necessary to show you just how sobering our Lord’s statement to the churches really is. Not many escaped the flood that came on the world in Noah’s day because the thoughts of men were only evil continually,
"…while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved…" (I Pet. 3:20).
Are things better now? NO, Paul said things would get worse AND WORSE.
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and FEW there be that find it" (Matt. 7:14).
"So the last shall be first, and the first last: and many be called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 20:16).
"For many are called, but FEW are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).
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THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).
So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?
Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."
One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:
"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).
Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.
There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.
All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!
When Jesus says that,
"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),
He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!
We will see it conclusively proved from God’s Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren’t the "soft" words that tickle people’s ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn’t "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Oh boy, this is a tough one. I personally never had much of a struggle coming out of the "church building/system". My husband and I moved to a new city about 5 years ago and initially when we arrived I sought out a church to attend and found one warm and welcoming enough for us to stay for a couple of years. We made friends with one couple, the husband being an elder and they were warm and relaxed people. Other than that we didn't get too personally involved with church members or activities. My husband only being involved at all because of me. To be honest, I slowly stopped attending church and at the time didn't really understand why....I thought I was slipping again and just not being a "good Christian". But I knew somehow I wasn't being fed, and I was spiritually drying up.
However, I do remember plenty of times listening to the message and feeling like God was speaking directly to me through the pastor because he would hit upon the precise things I was praying and thinking about that week. I know this has happened to others as well. These things were usually about daily living type subjects, than about doctrines. I would come away with a feeling of having been touched by the presence of God. And other times I would just find myself quietly weeping, not knowing why...thinking I was just being sentimental. All things of the flesh??? I really have no idea.
What I understand from Kat's post is that the methods and means by which the religious church system operates is carnal. People go to church for hundreds of reasons, and MOST of the time those reasons are to fulfill some kind of carnal desire (socialization, answer to prayer, stress relief, enjoyment of praise/worship etc etc etc etc and on and on). I rarely, if ever, found church to be about digging into the treasure trove of God's word, seeking for deeper knowledge as to how to understand SPIRITUAL matters. Most sermons point to how to be a good Christian in the "world". Even our Sabbath school "bible studies" consisted of study material put out by the church and just a constant rehashing of already founded doctrines within the church....there was nothing new.
Looking back at it now it was like being a hamster in a wheel. You're getting exercise, you're being fed and looked after but you're really not GOING ANYWHERE. Just stuck in the same old cage.
But I also see Darren's point of view, in that of course God is working on the hearts of those he has chosen while they are yet in a church system. In fact, I like to think, for me, God has been working on my heart all of my life, before I even ever stepped into the first church building.
He found his people in a desert land, in a barren place where animals howl. He guarded them, took care of them, and protected them because they were helpless. Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, hovers over its young, spreads its wings to catch them, and carries them on its feathers, so the LORD alone led his people. No foreign god was with him.
Deuteronomy 32:10-12
Satan may dwell in the church system and have his throne there, but that does not mean Jesus is not walking in the "midst" of this system:
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
DOES JESUS RESIDE AND DWELL IN THE CHURCH?
Does not Jesus dwell and reside in the Seven Churches of God mentioned in the Book of Revelation? Actually, He does not. Let’s read it:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says He that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who WALKS in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (Rev. 2:1).
Jesus Christ "walks" in the midst of the churches—He does not dwell there; He does not reside there; He does not have His throne there. But someone else does:
SATAN has his "seat [Greek: ‘throne’]" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13)
SATAN "dwells" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13).
SATAN still has his "synagogue" in the Churches (Rev. 2:9 & 3:9).
SATAN’S "depths" of doctrinal evils are in the Churches (Rev. 2:24).
It is Satan who has his "throne" in the Churches--the Throne of Jesus Christ is in Heaven with His Father (Rev. 3:21), not in the church. He is not enthroned in the Church; He merely "walks" in the Churches.
Perhaps everyone's response here is according to where they are at in their growth. In this way, there is no right or wrong. Let's not forget that it is God doing the leading.
Matt, quite simply, if you go then that's where God wants you to be, if you don't go then that's where God wants you to be. Trust in the living God who
...is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24-25
Peace and may God be with you,
Diana
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One important point is that God wants us to worship Him in Spirit and truth.
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Whoaaa!! :D
Hey let us find some common ground. Who here will stand up and say. "Gosh darn one second I was in church singing my lungs out, and then, I found myself walking out the door, a new person."
Who amongst us woke up one morning born anew? Who also suddenly realized, that every word that they had heard previously was a LIE? I would be very interested to know how long it took for some of you to come out of the church, once you realized it's teachings just didn't mesh with the spirit within your heart. Yes, the very same spirit that let's you know when the truth is in fact truth.
Is it impossible for God not to be working His Spirit in even a small fraction within the church today. How many here came not from the church. Why did you come? Of course God is in control. Of course everything happens according to his will.
I think many are confusing the establishment of the church, that is Banylon the Great, with the people who have been blinded. Blinded by whom if not their own decietful hearts. By God who blinded their eyes to see and closed their earts to hear.
When it says:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Who are they being called by. Is it not God's own Spirit.
This does not and cannot mean that once called, such become born again of the spirit. They are merely called. There is a definate difference between being called and chosen.
I am NOT disagreeing with any Scripture presented. But I will disagree with the notion that God cannot work his spirit in the hearts of even some (if not all) that attend the church.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
We all should know that God does what he wants when he wants for reasons unknown to us.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
If Matt's wife Jennifer, decided for reasons unknown that Matt is a much calmer, profound person than he was before and that his words do make more sense than that of the church; that she joins this forum. How many hear would argue with her if she said: "You know, I have been questioning it for a number of months, but I just didn't have enough to leave, but then this happened....."
Who would say she was mistaken. That the God she was singing to while singing heartfelt, meaningful songs. Wasn't the God that has been molding her to his will in his time.
Who would tell her she was wrong. :)
I am so sorry that a simple point such as this was lost. There is a lesson in this for everyone. :)
Matt, please forgive me for using your wife lovely in my analogy. :)
Praise be to our loving and gracious God.
Darren
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One important point is that God wants us to worship Him in Spirit and truth.
Given only by him, lest we should ever forget :)
Who knows who God has given a portion of his spirit. Not me. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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I have to say, for myself, that the God I was worshipping and praying to when I was attending church is the same One I worship and pray to now. I just know Him a lot better now.
Ursula
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I can't keep up with everything that has been said, so I'll answer your last post Ursula.
The church being the synagogue of Satan, then those ministers in it are his ministers.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
v. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
v. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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It's a carefully choreographed brainwashing.
The big pentecostal organization (cannot remember their name, in Tennessee?) even has a set of instructions on how to start the music with upbeat songs and work down to a slow, emotional end.
You can get the same feelings from a good movie. It's ALL emotional. There is nothing spiritual about it.
This came up several years ago and someone posted the instructions (wish I could fine them).
Dennis
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Dennis,
I had a similar experience with a Baptist church near by. Oh, the people were wonderful to talk to, friendly, nice, etc. They had a beautiful choir and even the sermons were not that radical, for I have seen many that were.
However, when I got a chance to speak to a couple of the head guys one on one. Fruitier and nuttier than a fruitcake. It was a very smoothly orchastrated facade.
In Christ our Saviour,
Darren
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Okay, found it: From a long time ago in a far, far away bible-truths forum:
> Hi Dennis,
>
> I just wanted to comment on some emails recent
> with regard to people going to a "feel good" church,
> coming out of the services feeling emotionally good,
> having gotten an "emotional high" from being in a praise
> and worship service.
>
> I have first-hand knowledge of the fact that all
> Assembly of God churches throughout the world are
> in strict adherence to the guidelines set forth by
> the corporate headquarters of Assemblies of God in
> Springfield, Missouri. The corporate headquarters
> for AOG came out in the mid 1980s with the ORDER (or
> COMMAND, if you like) that ALL services will start
> out with a praise and worship service for at least 45
> minutes long, whereby there would be some type of
> organized "praise team" that would lead the
> congregation initially in very upbeat songs to
> attract and get attention of the congregation so as to put
> them immediately on an "emotional high" and then
> progressing into a more seductive mood by the
> "slower" songs which the praise team would sing over and
> over and over to ad nauseum, having the people stand
> for 45 minutes during this praise and worship session.
> After the praise and worship session, the pastor then
> encourages the congregation to dig deep into their
> pockets for the tithe and offering collection.
> And that type of service has now permeated into
> independent Pentecostal churches, Church of God
> churches, into Baptist churches, into some
> Methodist churches, into some Presbyterian churches, into
> Messianic churches, and even into some Catholic
> churches during separate charismatic services that
> are held at times other than their regular mass
> service.
> There has been a tremendous influx of people into
> the pentecostal-related churches over the past 15
> years.
> One AOG church that I know of personally is in
> Port St. Lucie, Florida. Back in 1986, Calvary
> Assembly was meeting in a strip mall with a total
> attendance (on the books) of 50 people, and in 1988, they
> were conducting two morning services and had over 550
> members on the books, and they had instituted the
> "praise and worship" concept and had music that
> sounded no different than if you were in a
> cocktail lounge listening to music.
>
> Presently, today, where I live in several
> pentecostal churches and Church of God during the offeratory,
> the music that is played sounds exactly like being in
> a bar or cocktail lounge. A blind person would not
> be able to tell if they were in a church when
> listening to the music. In fact, they would swear they were
> in a cocktail lounge listening to music. And it's
> because of this "cocktail" like music that many
> people are flocking into the churches to get an
> "emotional high," and not a spiritual high. They claim it's
> a spiritual high, but that is so far from the truth.
>
>
> The Bible is right on point where it says that the
> people's ears will be tickled, because this is
> what the people like to hear. And the clergy of these
> churches tell the people that any church that
> doesn't have this kind of "praise and worship" in their
> services is a DEAD CHURCH and that God is not in
> their presence.
>
> To tell you the truth, Dennis, this whole concept
> of drawing people in to get their emotional high by
> singing the same music repetitively many times to
> the same "cocktail lounge" type arrangements is truly
> pathetic and as Ray pointed out in one of his
> articles, these services are the inhabitation of
> Satan, as these places are called the Synagogue of
> Satan.
>
> Loren
> Hi Loren,
>
> Interesting about AOG and the format they insist
> everyone follow. I never realized it was so wide
> spread. I wouldn't be so against it if the music was
> not used as a tool to collect money and teach false
> doctrines.
>
> I am a close friend of someone very, very prominent
> in the Christian music business. Of course he thinks
> he is doing the Lords work and to some extent I
> guess he is. But the music is pretty much secular
> sounding. I'm not sure he even realizes it but they
> are in the entertainment business. The competition
> among Christian music groups is fierce. I just wish
> they would stop kidding themselves about their
> motives. They all want to be #1.
>
> Were you aware some churches hire
> outside/professional musicians to play in the church
> band? That's how important the music is.
>
> Someone recently asked Ray what the format is at the
> meetings. They asked if there would be music. Ray
> said not this time but maybe later there would be
> hymns.
>
> You cannot blame the sheep. It's the shepherds that
> lead the sheep astray. With all their training you
> would think the ministers would figure it out. But I
> don't think they want to be enlightened. I think
> they like the power they have over people. Just like
> the music competition these ministers are in
> competition with each other to see who can extract
> the most money. They are in some kind of exclusive
> club all trying to outdo each other.
>
> I look at the bible-truths log files everyday.
> Almost everyday someone searches for "tithing
> sermon" or "sermon on tithing" or something like
> that. You know these are ministers looking for
> material on the Internet. So far only two ministers
> (as best we can recall) have emailed Ray and said
> they would stop preaching about tithing. Only two!
[note: in 2004]
>
> I am happy for reasons known only to God that our
> eyes are no longer shut and we are no longer a part
> of that system.
>
> But the day will come when they will all know that
> God has blinded them for a season. They will all
> know the truth. Then we can all raise our hands in
> song without the collection plate being passed.
>
> Dennis
Hi Dennis,
Yes, I am aware of churches hiring outside people in
the entertainment industry to "spice up their
orchestras" to produce musical arrangements that is
similar to what the world produces, because the
churches know that if you have top-notch music talent
with a well-versed orchestra director, that the church
is going to attract a lot more people.
I know of one huge church (AOG) that hired an orchestra director
who expresses no religious faith at all, but is an known
in the entertainment industry as an excellent pianist
and orchestra director, so that he could produce
professionally done arrangements, which gave the
church an edge over the other AOG churches in their
area. The director is on the payroll of the church.
No matter what AOG church it is anywhere in the world,
the order of the service is the same. I have attended
many different AOG churches throughout the country
between 1985 and 2001 (2001 is when I discovered Ray's
bible-truths website), and for the first at least 45
minutes of each service, everyone stood for the praise
and worship session.
At one service, I counted the number of times that one song
was repeated over and over again, and the Praise and
Worship team leader led the congregation in singing
that song 12 times, and that song alone took almost 30 minutes
to sing 12 times, and when we were told we could sit down,
it was 55 minutes after the start of the praise and worship
service. Guess what happened next? The pastor
continued with the theme of the P&W service by tying
that into the receiving of our gifts to the Lord in
the form of tithes and offerings, and then the
offering was taken.
Just about at the end of the
service, a man walked down the aisle and up on the
platform and gave the minister an envelope. The
minister looked in the envelop and read something, and
then he then said, let's sing that song, that we had
already sang 12 times, and we then sang the song
another five times, and after that he told the
congregation that that morning's offering was the
largest offering the church had ever received, and
then said, "What a marvelous God we serve." Of
course, during all this time, an organist was playing
some inviting song which put everyone into a mood of
how wonderful it is to be a sacrificial giver.
It is really amazing what the effect that music can
have on a congregation.
Loren
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Music does have a great effect over people. God created music. He also created the stars at night. When I look up at night into the sky , the scene causes me to praise God. Is that just emotional and not spiritual ? I think it is both. God gave us feelings and emotions.
The thing is that being a pro musician I can't really say what is moving me if I hear a song. It could be the arrangement or the production. Then again it could be the lyrics or melody. When I hear the tune "Bridge over Troubled Water" I am moved. When I hear Beethoven or Chopin it moves me sometimes to tears. Or it could be a R and B groove that is so infectious that I just got to get up and dance. So my guess is that in church when the music is played over and over and over again -it is the music that is moving people. And not necessarily God directly. He doesn't need to do anything.
Do you remember the Billy Graham crusades where Just As I Am was the song during the altar call. It is a great melody and song. When you hear it it is sort of lik hearing Pomp and Circumstance at a graduation. It makes you teary. It causes you to reflect and look at your life. So in that aspect it is spiritual I think. And it involves the emotions. But just because we all get to dancing in the aisle and hollering at church doesn't mean it is God anointing. It is the music and our response to it. If it was God truly- then a simple reading of His Word should do the trick.
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There have been great scripture & discussion on this thread. Very thought provoking.
Nothing new, just my experience, if anyone is left for this thread.
The last church I left was a huge one. Use to be w/ the faith message. Then went w/ the Harvest group. Now on its own and "birthing" new churches. They got a half hour slot on BET. That didn't last long, as BET didn't keep some contractual promises like time slots, and type of music etc. The pastor ws shocked at the secular nature of the whole thing. This pastor has been on 700 Club, TBN, TD Jakes, and preaches in the states and around the world. Now I think that our (my ex) church was pretty secular and he thought they were bad!
My two oldest kids graduated from Lee University in Cleveland TN. Home of the Church of God (similar to AOG). Worship & praise is very orchestrated. They manipulate the music as they "feel the spirit leading"...ie the way the pastor or leader deems it. In my ex church I could see my pastors hand move up or down telling the worship leader to go louder or softer or stop.
Spirit led services are NOT led by the spirit IMHO. And that is why we left the Lutheran church, to go to a "spirit filled" one so we could be led by the spirit...duh...
PS....my ex pastor of this mega church just spent 10 days in jail on a DUI. not his first either! He says its just wine and the local cops are out to get him bcz he drives a mercedes convertible and is easy to spot..... OOOO KAAAAA
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Hi Kat,
I am in complete disagreement with you on this one. Do you mean to tell Ursula that she was worshipping Satan when she state that: " have to say, for myself, that the God I was worshipping and praying to when I was attending church is the same One I worship and pray to now. I just know Him a lot better now." and you answer with "The church being the synagogue of Satan, then those ministers in it are his ministers."
Nevertheless, it is still God's will for each and everyone of us to go through our various experiences in the church whether it has led us here or elsewhere for that matter.
-
Prosizz
Just a short comment, all the years I was in church I was worshipping a God that was not completely sovereign because I had free will, and I was worshipping a God that was going to burn billions of people in an eternal hell. It was as Paul says "another Jesus". I now realize why I had to come out of the whore of Bablyon so as not to suffer from her diseases were the false doctrines that was leading me to worship the wrong Jesus.
CIY
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Prosizz,
I agree with you. I listen to worship music and praise and worship God through it. It is my gift to him and I feel good and happy when I do it. Let's not get religeous about it and all legalistic. If it is carnal and not annointed as some say so what! I dont get all the fuss. This is our human experience. Life is very hard so let a song in our heart give us some joy.
Just my opinion
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Ok Come out of her is a commandment not a request, you have to learn how to let go!
This is an idol of the heart, its been proven by scripture from God via Ray that the church belongs to satan or are we not reading the same letters?
The sacrifices great and not easy infact its the heardest thing you will ever do to allow God to mold you into what he wants and not what we want do not replace God with an idol of the heart.
The facts are you are here and now you know what God desires and believe me when I say I've lost my life in order to gain Gods direction its a price I';m willing to pay. So many of the ones I love deeply don't even speak to me any longer and man it hurts without a doubt but if that's what God desires then its what I want also.
Learn to let go and trust in God and not the church, its the only way to take up his cross.
May God grant all the courage to press on and the knowledge to do so.
In Gods service by his Grace.
Randy.
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Hi Randy,
Just to add:
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
We must never confuse the building with the doctrine. Satan has indoctrinated the entire church, and God is dragging those He calls out of the darkness of untruth into the light. He is NOT dragging us out of the building pursee.
When we look at it closely, this idea is absurd. Once God has given us his spirit, do you think that by merely stepping into a church building that all of the truth that has been given us will suddenly evaporate.
I am in no way drawn to attend any church; however, I am in no way afraid to do so. The complete armor of God is more than enough dispell Satan and his blind followers. We cannot RETURN to Babylon the great by simply walking through the doors. We can ONLY do this by "partaking" in her sins and grievas acts.
You are right though concerning your words of "letting go." If God is for us, who can be against us. We wil no longer be under the the lure of the yet carnal beast in us.
So in closing, each one is walking their walk with God on God's terms.
With Love in Christ,
Darren
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Dennis,
Thank you for posting that email about the music in the AOG. I didn't realize it was SO contrived. It is really a sad thing. This entire thread has given me much to think about.
Ursula
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Why would you want to? "Do NOT tempt the LORD thy God," for he is a Jealous God."
Randy
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Hi Prosizz,
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
v. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
v. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Here are the scripture, how can you say this is not referring to the Christian churches. I know they and I use to too, say they are worshipping the Lord, and it is Him they love. But can you really separate the church from the doctrines they embrace.
Mar 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
And who was Christ talking to in Matt. 7?
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' (Maybe you could also say, sing praises to Your name)
v. 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
God being sovereign we are in God's will whether we are in the church or not.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Randy, was this directed to me?
Why would you want to? "Do NOT tempt the LORD thy God." for he is a Jealous God.
No one said anything about "wanting" or "needing" to, what I said was not being afraid to. :)
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
I will stand by what I said. I have no desire to attend any church, yet I am NOT AFRAID to do so. Surely the church building must be seen for what it is, just another part of the valley of the shadow of death. I will not fear the evil within because the staff of God will comfort me and his sheild will protect me.
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Would I happily let my wife, sister or daughter attend a smoke ridden dark room filled with deviates of all kinds, alone? Heck no, but many happily I let the same walk into a church alone and unprotected. WHY? ???
Why if it is the most evil place on Earth? One last point. When I walk through the doors of the Church, I do NOT leave God on the front doorstep, and neither does He leave me. Neither the church or Satan is any match for God's will. Never was and never will be, and that is a God given Truth. :)
Thanks and love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Prosizz,
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
v. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
v. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Here are the scripture, how can you say this is not referring to the Christian churches. I know they and I use to too, say they are worshipping the Lord, and it is Him they love. But can you really separate the church from the doctrines they embrace.
Mar 7:7 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
And who was Christ talking to in Matt. 7?
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' (Maybe you could also say, sing praises to Your name)
v. 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
God being sovereign we are in God's will whether we are in the church or not.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Kat, I can't help feel that you are denying God from having any power, ability or right to work in the hearts of some within the church. Are you saying that God did not partially open your eys and ears while you were yet in the church? Did you fight God, or did you accept Him for the truth that was given you?
I never "knew" the God of the church, I always thought I was doing something wrong. I could not believe the "truth" they taught, for it misaligned with the the truth/Spirit in my heart. Truly, when I sang those songs, I sang them to the God that had made himself known to me. I simply could not sing to any other. This is no lie.
But you are VERY correct when you said: "God being sovereign we are in God's will whether we are in the church or not."
So let us never restrict God to the level of our understanding. :)
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
With Love in the name of our Christ and Saviour,
Darren
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Ok Darren as it is but I also think "how can a man put fire to his bosom and not get burned?
I guess it comes down to whom to do you love more?
as for me I will NOT enter into such a place because its a killing field of Gods truths.
As for fear what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Why should your spouse stop going if you still are?
Randy
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what amazes me, is that most here would be very cautious in saying they are chosen, the elect. They are hoping so. But since only a few are chosen, guess what, most of us are all worshiping satan too, and thinking we arent' because we don't believe in free will, or because we dont' believe in hell.
Whatever happened to believing in the resurrection? There are many individuals in the church who put there faith in the resurrected Christ.
Antichrist's are those who deny Jesus come in the flesh. If he didn't come in the flesh, then he never rose again.
Where is the line? where is the line?
time for me to take a long break from here.
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Ok Darren as it is but I also think "how can a man put fire to his bosom and not get burned?
I guess it comes down to whom to do you love more?
as for me I will NOT enter into such a place because its a killing field of Gods truths.
As for fear what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Why should your spouse stop going if you still are?
Randy
A man cannot put fire on his bosom and not get burned. I KNOW that ;D
But I do know that the full armor of God will protect me from any fire that may come my way.
May I ask you from where God's elect came if not from the very killing fields you distain? Is it the building that represents these killing fields and while ever you keep away from it, one is safe? Sadly this is not the case, many, many people take the same garbage, lies and deceit with them when they leave the Church, perhaps to return next Sunday, or to never return. The plauges of the church are inescapable as a shadow; this is what we all MUST come out of.
I could no sooner go back to that line of thinking (had I come from it) than I could drive a truck through a crowded SuperMarket. Why couldn't I, because I do not have the will to do so, Gods will. Yet, I do not fear talking with such or sharing a meal with same; yet I have no desire to associate with them on a regular basis.
Your last question is unanswerable because neither my wife or I attend church. :)
Darren
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The line is, Do you believe in what God says or do you believe in your own understanding.
Its a battle Line Rocky and many are killed and wounded, its the pains of taking up the cross.
It is with a sad heart that I hear you are leaving us for a time this is the hardest thing we are called and chosen to do, to follow Jesus.
My prays are with you as I hope yours are with us.
May God direct your ever step in this lesson on becoming as ONE with GOD.
Wisdom and peace to you Rocky.
Randy
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Kat,
OK, I get the scriptures. Now does that include us here at the forum?
Even though in cyberland, we are also a congregation of believers therefore the church. Since we are reckoned as the church, is Satan throne then within us as well?
There is a different between physical and spiritual church and we at the forum are part of the physical church because we are a group of people gathered under one same belief and within us are the called and chosen as well as the called but not chosen. Just as it is in any other church on earth. So remember that even though the church is the throne of Satan, so the world is under his kingship yet we are in of the world of course we are not part of it but we are in it. Jesus has an invisible church that worship from the synagogue above yet only jesus knows his own but as far as we are in the flesh, we love God we will be in the congregation of like minded people.
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WOAH! Okay hang on....you all are making this thread so long that the mods are gonna shut it down before I can get involved in a thread that I started. ;D
I've read through it but it's pretty involved so I may have missed a little here and there. I agree that the music leaders in church have a system down. They start upbeat and end with something slower to get people "in the mood" if you will. Does that mean the people in the congregation are sinning by trying to worship God? Don't you guys see that their God is our God??? The people may be going about it wrong (doesn't scripture say they will?) but are they purposely and willingly sinning?
One of you went so far as to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't work in people's hearts in church. Oh contrare! I've personally seen that! Where? Inside of myself! How could I have been called out without the Holy Spirit working in me to move me out?
But anyway, this sure became an interesting thread. I'm a bit disappointed in the reaction (harsh judgements wether direct or indirect) but interesting for sure.
Matt
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whew, can somebody get me a glass of water? lol
Hi Prosizz,
This is not a place of worship. There is no day on which you have to attend.
Yes there are wolves here but it isn't a church of god or kingdom hall etc....
Last I seen there where 333 members here and I guess compared to the whole world that's not even a drop so yup I guess we are the few the chosen the ELECT.
KIS don't try to split hairs.
Peace and Wisdom to all.
Randy
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Where is the line? where is the line?
Personally I think I will be "coming out of her" all the days of my life. I don't think there is a time we are out completely and that's it, we're done with Babylon, it's behind us. That is, not while we are in the flesh. To me, Babylon is so much more than just a church system. Not all of us grew up in a church. I spent my whole life seeking for truth in all sorts of strange places, and God still shockingly reveals the islands, mountains, trees and grass to me that have had their tentacles in me since times before I became a Christian.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.
Peace,
Diana
(Rocky, I hope you won't stay away too long.... ;))
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Oh sure Randy, this is a place of worship. Perhaps you have a different definition of worship than I do but beleive me if you please, this sure is a place of worship.
I come here to learn, to be admonished and to be encouraged in my walk with Christ. The time spent here is part of my worship to the lord. Worship does just consist of sing, or being in a building somewhere with people prostating oneself on the floor or in some trance. Believers are the church and and we, every single one of us, are the temple of the spirit. Therefore all I do day in and day out is part of my worship to the Lord. The only question is what type of worship I have, a carnal one or spiritual one but make no mistake, this sure a place of worship.
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Maybe if we look at this portion of Ray's article no. 10 'WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?' it will help our understanding on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------------------------------------------------
"THE" CHURCH VS. "MY" CHURCH
During Jesus’ ministry, He spoke of "the" church and "My" church. There already existed "the church" (Matt. 18:17), at the very time that Jesus said He would build "MY CHURCH" (Matt. 16:18). For fifteen centuries God established Israel as a church:
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, ‘A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear.’ This is HE, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers WOULD NOT OBEY, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt" (Acts 7:37-39).
DEFINING "CHURCH"
Just what is a "church?" Strong’s Greek Dictionary, #1570. ekklesia, a calling out. (1b) Ekklesia, from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling…" So the church is those whom God has CALLED OUT to be His "called out ones," hence, Jesus said, "So the last shall be first, and the first shall be last [sorry, don’t have time to explain this unique statement of our Lord]: for many be called, but few chosen." I will take the time to explain this second statement, however.
Notice that the "called" and the "chosen" cannot be the same group, as one is "many" and the other is "few." God has given us a general statement as to whom He has called and whom He has not called. We already know the number of those called is "many." Now we will see the two general classifications of those called:
A QUICK HISTORY OF THE CHURCH BEFORE REVELATION
Jesus Christ said,
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [a movable stone], and upon this rock [Christ, the immovable boulder] I will build MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell [Greek: hades, the unseen realm of the dead] shall NOT prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).
What did Jesus mean that the "gates of hades would not prevail against it?" This word "prevail" was translated from the Greek word katischuo and it means, "to overpower." It is used but one other time in Scripture and here we shall see exactly what this word means:
"And they [the chief priests] were instant with loud voices, requiring that He [Jesus] might be crucified. And the voices of them of the chief priests prevailed… And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, there they CRUCIFIED Him…" (Luke 23:23 & 33).
The chief priests "prevailed" [katischuo] by putting Jesus Christ TO DEATH. But Jesus said that the "gates of hades [realm of the DEAD] will not prevail [katischuo] against it." In other words, His Church would NEVER be overpowered to death.
And so, the Church that Jesus Christ built is still around today.
On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!
It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!
"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).
The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,
"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17
PERSECUTION COMES QUICKLY
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (II Tim. 3:11).
Those are the words of Paul, and he should know, HE WAS THE CHURCH’S BIGGEST PERSECUTOR!
"And Saul [Paul] was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was A GREAT PERSECUTION AGAINST THE CHURCH which was at Jerusalem, and they were ALL scattered abroad through the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles" (Acts 8:1).
And just who was behind this persecuting of the Church of God? Answer: The other Church of God that was also headquartered in Jerusalem!!!
"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter [murder] against the disciples of the Lord [that would be Christ’s Church], went unto the HIGH PRIEST [of the OTHER Church of God, in the TEMPLE—remember back in Acts 2:46 where the Church of Christ was ‘continuing daily with one accord?’ Yes, that temple!]
And [Saul] desired of him LETTERS [letters of authorization from the highest level of God’s Church—the HIGH PRIEST] to Damascus…"
Letters for the purpose of continuing his persecution and slaughter of Christ’s New Church. I told you it is not pretty picture.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his OWN HOUSEHOLD" (Matt. 10:34-36).
Do you think that maybe a man’s foes could even be of his OWN CHURCH?
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Skydreamers :
You interpret the trees and the grass as things in us. How did you come up with that interpretation and how do you know that it is the true meaning ? For example Hal Lindsey will say that the locusts mentioned in Revelation are helicopters. Locusts sound like miniature helicopters and have the faces of men when you can see into a helicopter. I am using this strange example I know. But one will say that is your interpretation. A third of men will die but you say a third of us as a man needs to die. It clearly says a third of "men" not man. Ray also says that the words God speaks to us are spirit - so does that mean the you can't take anything literal ?
Is it all symbols ? Thanks
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Hi MrSnacks,
I shouldn't butt in but what the heck :)
Diana, only used what she as learned and applied it her own life.
She did kindly quote from where the words she used came:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html)
You ask, "does that mean the you can't take anything literal?" no, not at all. Christ did walk this Earth, die and was raised. If we do not believe then we deny Christ himself, and of what use is faith. I think Paul speaks of this somewhere.
Ray, himself speaks of the entire bible as being one big parable. Meaning of course that while some of it is literal, it is all symbolic or has a deeper meaning than may be immediately seen.
I hope this helps,
Darren
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Thanks Darren, that was well said and my sentiments as well....
Mrsnacks, I do understand what you are saying about "interpretations". However, sometimes I think we have to go with what rings true to us. That portion I quoted of Ray's teaching really hit home with me. And if you do word studies on these things (use e-sword, it's great) and pray for your eyes to be open, you can begin to see substantial scriptural evidence for what Ray has said. (which really is a huge study onto itself).
There may be some kind of literal end-time prophecy within revelation, but what interests and moves me more is how it applies to my spiritual life now....I am drawn to and earnestly seeking the spiritual meanings.
Certainly I don't understand it all now. But it's safe to say, I think, that the whole bible supports the idea that mankind is going through a process.
And that was my point, it may seem off-topic to this thread, but I was trying to show that we are all of us here at this forum somewhere in this process...some have left the church system, some haven't.
God is working with each of us to burn out the dross, whatever that may be in our lives.
Satan is not just in the church, he's the god of this world. I don't need to be in church to be sucked in by the enemy. I know he is there, but I know he is outside of the Christian church system (I use to be involved with occult things). If you want to avoid Satan, you might as well check out right now, because as far as I can see, Satan is a tool for discipline, and the disciplining doesn't end just because you've left a church system.
We are all susceptible of being given over to Satan at any time, for the destruction of the flesh:
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 5:5
Peace,
Diana
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Ok, in Rev. 18:4 it says, Come out of her My people
I take that to mean I was His person even though I was still in the church system. God calls us out, and calls us His people while we are IN the church. He shows us the corruption there and leads us out. He gives us eyes to see and we no longer want to be in that false system.
Rocky, please come back! We are all still a work in progress and are learning His ways as He shows us.
Ursula
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Hi Matt, interesting question.
My perspective is these church goers are believers [in Jesus Christ as the Son of God] and therefore must have some of God's Spirit in them. Perhaps you have more of a measure of that Spirit, as I believe we here at BT do as we've been Given more spiritual understandings. (We know according to John 3: 34 that God gave His Son His Spirit without measure.)
God knows you are not going there to partcipate in a vain physical act of worship; you are going there to support your family which is noble. I think even mingling with the Churchianity community affords a great opportunity to spread the truths as we have come to know them, albeit subtly.
I would use the situation to place my handmade "Hello, BibleTruths.com" labels around the place, leave one in a pew or where someone will be sure to pick them up. Sometimes I just walk up to people and hand them one with a smile. [The labels are nature pictures with the website on the back.]
You are not "fellowshipping" with these people per se. So I definitely wouldn't give it too much negative thought. I would go ahead and enjoy praising God in a reasonable manner for that moment.
Take Care, Caregiver
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When one reads or speaks of "coming out" of the church... is one to take this literally, as to no longer set foot in a physical building? or associate with a particular physical group of people?
Or is this a spiritual command? To spiritually become detached from the carnal/fleshly doctrines associate with Babylon? Is this simply a state of spiritual maturity, a progression beyond settling for the milk and moving on to the true meat of the Word?
Is it a one time occurrence? or is it part of dying daily.... does it have an is, was and will be application?
Can one ever totally "come out" of Babylon while we are still in the flesh?
Or perhaps we are again facing another "parable"?
The truth of the matter is... it won't matter how long this thread becomes or how many people get involved or how many scriptures are quoted or how many quotes one may give from Ray's various articles, emails and letters... God has us all at different places, all looking at the same thing from different angles and through different lenses.
Perhaps we can all rest assured that God has us all exactly where He desires us to be at this very moment.
If I may, I would like to offer one more scripture to this discussion to be considered:
Luke 17:20-21 - Later, he was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he gave them this reply: "The kingdom of God never comes by watching for it. Men cannot say, 'Look, here it is', or 'there it is', for the kingdom of God is inside you."
What I see a great deal of in this thread, including my earlier post, is that we are attempting to apply the spiritual commands of the Word of God outwardly. We are failing to see that spiritual secrets of the Kingdom of God can only be seen when we apply them inwardly.
The entirety of the Word of God is happening within... and many will be left trying to figure out who are the "few" and who are the "many"... who are the "called" and who are the "chosen"...
Look inside... you will find them all.
God's Peace.
Josh
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Thank you Josh, finally a post with wisdom and compassion.
I'm not sure anything else should be said.
Blessings
Craig
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Hi Josh,
I agree, that was a great post.
Thanks for sharing.
Iris
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Josh, thank you! The spiritual is inside! Inside us! Not in a church, not outside of a church, but INSIDE of us, no matter what building we are in or out of! It's not in who's preaching to us or teaching us. It's in us, through God's word.
Your INWARD life reveals itself in the OUTWARD you and the ways you react to others. THINK ABOUT IT.
THINK ABOUT IT.
Matt
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You hit the nail on the head Josh!
Now, to go a bit deeper...as I had posted yesterday on another thread (that should have been put on this thread...) my question is this: when God says in 1Tim. 3.. that we "are to not eat with those whom have a form of Godliness, but who deny the power of God"...then aren't we commanded to not be around these kind of people since they are teaching lies regarding The Word? I have struggled with this verse since HE tells us to stay away from certain people and to not even let them into your home nor to eat with them. So, SHALL WE DISFELLOWSHIP people that we are around on a daily basis (including strong christians, family relatives, coworkers, ? I know that we are in the world and not OF the world, but, where is the line drawn when it comes to doing things with homeschool relationships?
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So what am I to do? I'm working 68 hours this week. You think even one person I work with believes remotely like we do? Heck no. What to do? Not look at anyone, nod when spoken to, give the shortest answer possible when needed, sit by myself at my break times and avoid eye contact etc etc etc.
WE'RE BETTER THAN THAT. Aren't we commanded to spread the good news? How? If we must avoid contact then it becomes impossible other than through written word. Could it be that we aren't to form as tight a bond with those folks as say, someone who doesn't deny the power of God?
Matt
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It is impossible not to come in contact with others, and why should we try to avoid it?
How can your light shine under a basket?
How can you be an example if you're hidden away?
I'm currently doing some contract work for a (decent) man who has both feet in the church. He personally knows some of the TBN preachers. I have no problem associating with him, but we are not (yet) brothers.
Dennis
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There are degrees surely of "association".
Some of our associations, as I understand you to mean Dennis, are "outside" as you say : not (yet) brothers.....some others are nearer....and perhaps not so many others may be closer and then some of the few are intimate.
Just like the OT Temple. We are the NT Temple of God so is it not appropriate therefore that the same should apply? I think it is!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Susan,
I can't help be reminded of the story of the Good Samaritan. :)
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levitt, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],
Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
How can we shut the world out and not be the same as the priest or the Levitt in Christs parable. Were not these two pious men walking higher and considered themselves better than the "fool" hurt on the side of the road.
As Dennis said so well, how can the light of God shine under a basket?
I want to say something to you Susan, but please understand that I am not directing what I am saying to you.
Many people make a very big deal out of not eating certain foods or drinking wine, etc; while others refuse to celebrate any religious holiday, yet the same have no qualms about taking off during a secular holiday. Why is this? Are they not both pagan?????
They miss what is the important part and that is while the board up and shut up certain things so as to isolate themselves from them, they have in effect made themselves slaves unto them. These words may sound harsh, but while ever one is willing to endure hardship and hurt, even unto their children it is my belief that they are making the event something it is not. Participating in the day is much different than participating in the belief. Any pagan belief that was once tied to Christmas has long since been forgotten.
You ask where is the line drawn, and the answer is very simple. Seek not your understanding, but ask God for guidance to show you the futility of taking His word into our own hands. I believe you have done this, and there have been many fine responses.
I truly hope that you find the answers to your questions Susan.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Darren, Matt, and Dennis,
I am sorry if i didn't ask the correct question or say the right thing to get my point across. (I am very emotional and I thin k that this is clouding my thoughts right now...sorry!) Please do not think that I think that we can ever separate ourselves from the 99.9 % of the world who do not think and believe these spiritual truths that we believe and have been given (PRAISE GOD.) I know that we cannot and should not expect to single ourselves out like a hermit; that would contradict our purpose for being called out and for trying to let Christ shine through us/His temple. (I too try daily to talk about the truth and share it with those who God puts into my path...I try and let my light shine and could never imagine myself 'hiding it/Christ/truth under a basket'. That would defeat our purpose for living! Thus, I do not try to avoid 'life'. (Example: today I was listening to the radio (to win monster truck tix) and heard a joke and comment made by the DJ about being afraid of going to hell , so I called and spoke the truth about hell to him and he wants to talk further. ) Plus, I would be truly sad if i could not try and help others to see the truth.
The problem that I am unsure about how to discern is that WE (my family) have been rejected, mistreated, and lied about by just about all of the christian homeschool community that I am a member of; they have purposely excluded us from co-ops, playtimes, classes, and outings...It doesn't bother me for myself, since I can take care of myself, however, they have rejected and all of the above ti my 8 y.o. son! They want nothing to do with us, and yet, I depend on their support to assist in the education of my son...it was a shared opportunity that we parents could teach all of the kids; now we are ignored and treated as outsiders. They have membership rules that state that one must be a believer in Christ ...but, i just feel that i cannot support their idea of what a believer is; and they think that I am misled and ignorant as to 'the real plan of salvation', so now there is no more unity in our teachings together as all of us once shared! These christians are the ones persecuting us! They are the ones that are so comfortable in propagating their false doctrines, that I wasn't sure if I am supposed to separate myself from these particular people? If not, then who is 2Tim.3:6-9 referring to staying away from? (They do not like us and have separated themselves from me and mine.)
I'm sorry for this being so long. :-X
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:( also sorry for letting my emotions get in the way of wording that first email you guys!
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Darren,
I do not need to be rebuked for 'taking HIS Words into my own hands"...as I had stated, I did not word my email they way that i wanted it to portray what I was thinking and feeling; thus, I agree whole heartedly with you all and your advice. I never had a problem with that. Infact, if i would have chosen my words more carefully, then I would not have said "where do you draw the line"...I was actually in reference to how do i use the 2 Tim 3:6 scripture? Do I use it on the homeschoolers or not? ( I have loved them (my enemies), I have blessed them, but I just wasn't sure how to discern where the line was in relating to these people.
Arcturus, you understood where I was coming from and what I was trying to say...thank you! To what extent do I get close to these people is all I was trying to say.
Darren, as far as the treating one day diff than another; I understand where you are coming from, but, I must obey God when HE says to 'do not do the way of the heathen..." b/c it is an abomination to Him...(Duet 12 and Jer 10.)And I do differ here with you...you said that there is no paganism in todays' xmas celebrations...I have a step daughter as well as others whom I am aware of who openly celebrate xmas in the pagan way today, in 2007; (with them knowing full well that it was the Pagans from which this holiday originated from in the first place.) Therefore, I personally cannot celebrate this day in good conscience; but, if your conscience allows you to then that is between you and God.
I hope that cleared up what was a poor attempt in the earlier email to convey. :)
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Hi Susan,
My prayers are with you in this time of struggle. I can totally see what a dilemma you are in. You want to do the very best for your child. I will pray that God will reveal to you His will in the matter.
Having said that, I can only give you my opinion as I see it, but certainly I can't say if it is right or wrong.
I do think the scripture you are referring to is to be taken predominantly in a spiritual sense, for those of us who are being lead to see deeper truths...
For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:6-7
Susan, I think this is referring to not letting the lies and deception that are being taught and supported by many Christians into your "spiritual house". Among them, there is opportunity for the light of Jesus to shine through you onto them, Lord willing. But in keeping with what this thread is about, whether in the world, or in the church system, we will always come up against Babylonian confusion, and we are not to spiritually partake of her plagues. You have been given a measure of sight, to discern that some of these blind people will "never be able to arrive at a knowledge of truth" (in this age). Hold fast to what you know, and live in the truth you have, standing your ground.
And if the house (their spiritual house) is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.
Matthew 10:13-14
You do not, as I see it, have to physically remove yourself from their presence, but this does seem to be a warning not to "cast your pearls before pigs", who have not yet been chosen by God to see. You can no longer spiritually fellowship with them.
Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matthew 7:6
To refer back to a wonderfully stated post by Josh:
When one reads or speaks of "coming out" of the church... is one to take this literally, as to no longer set foot in a physical building? or associate with a particular physical group of people?
Or is this a spiritual command? To spiritually become detached from the carnal/fleshly doctrines associate with Babylon? Is this simply a state of spiritual maturity, a progression beyond settling for the milk and moving on to the true meat of the Word?
Is it a one time occurrence? or is it part of dying daily.... does it have an is, was and will be application?
Can one ever totally "come out" of Babylon while we are still in the flesh?
Or perhaps we are again facing another "parable"?
The truth of the matter is... it won't matter how long this thread becomes or how many people get involved or how many scriptures are quoted or how many quotes one may give from Ray's various articles, emails and letters... God has us all at different places, all looking at the same thing from different angles and through different lenses.
Perhaps we can all rest assured that God has us all exactly where He desires us to be at this very moment.
May God give you wisdom
Peace and luv to ya,
Diana
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Diana, God bless you and thank you all for the prayers and taking the time and conern to assist me with these issues! I know this may seem simple to some of you to deal with , but, I get stuck sometimes and have to take some quiet time and reflect on the big picture and get reoriented to the truth of the matter; which is what I am doing now.
You are so right Diana, I have been looking at the physical instead of the spiritual aspect of that scripture! I have ben thinking that I would have to physically leave the HS group and put my child's opportunities for education at risk. I just cannot fellship spiritually with them as you said. Not that we have ever gotten very deep in spiritual fellowship in the past, but, I will have to bow out when and if the opportunties arise for discussing spiritual issues with them. (IT IS SOOOO HARD FOR ME TO KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT ALOT OF TIMES THOUGH!) I just cannot throw Gods' precious truths before them anymore for them to disrespect, so I will not even bring up the issues unless I see that the peson is seriously wanting to learn the truth. I will just stivk to the educational element of my relationship with them as well as endure the ostricising that we receive from them and just consider that they are blinded. It does hurt to be treated this way, but, I'll just have to ignore the hypocritical treatment.
I appreciate each and everyone on you here! I guess i will just stay with this group and will not send Daniel to a public Charter school. I will just not trust them as I once did. This is a big load off of my shoulders fianlly. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN.
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God sent His "Apostles " out into the world (that world includes Baylon). I really think that is where He wants us to be. We just do not let them into our own spiritual house just yet.
Yesterday I had a guy (very religious type) helping me move some things. Everytime He said something I would quote him a scripture or two ask him what Jesus meant by that. A few times he said where does it say that in the Bible and I would pull out my Palm Treos and show him. I think God used me to prick his gourd ...so to speak.
I do not try to debate or get into lengthy discussion with anyone I only ask questions or sometimes I actively refute what (when they distort the truth in scriptures) someone has said by saying "it is written" and then giving them the contra scripture. I smile big and show empathy but I just let the Word stand.
Since I am ....free in Christ...I never worry about their rejections... if I speak to people in a bible study in a church and I am asked to leave ...so what ....I expect that now... I am usually amazed sometimes how long I can make my points before this happens. Now that I moved I will have a whole crop of new churches that I can to go to on Wednesdays.
If anyone acts interested or is curious then I answer whatever I can. This is whn my ego gets nervous I am usually praying that God help will me because I am the worse chapter and verse quoter and I usually fracture the Scriptures like Bullwinkle's fractured fairy tales (for those who remember these).
I would not agonize over worhing with the Home School People just see them as God's little flock of lost sheep.
beloved
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Good thoughts Beloved!
Gods little lost flock of sheep. I like that.
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You are right Beloved, as I have always known that HE DOES want us to be in the world and just not of the world; sometimes I just forgot to use the spiritual application/discernment. I agree and have always had a heart for the lost sheep of the world (including the HS group), b/c i remember what it felt like to be a lost sheep...it was very scary! Ever since the first time that I ever read and heard Matt 28 about going out into all the world and preaching the gospel, I have always wanted to help others to see Gods truths.
As far as the HS group, well, DH and I finally decided to stay away from them for this next year and to just HS without them (but with other HSers) since it would not be a good learning environment any longer for our son to be around. Thank you Lord, the problem is solved! We will see these people occasionally, and we will be nice, but, we no longer can trust them to have the best interest in mind for assisting and sharing in our child's education. (Especially after a couple had told their 2 kids to hit my child as hard as they could if they didn't want my child to mess (play) with them...and one of them did do just that to Daniel last year when Daniel was just being a typical boy and was not being hateful to them; whereas my child could have retaliated and used his Karate' on the kid who hurt him, but he loved his enemy and forgave. We don't need to be around adults who are teaching their kids to be violent instead of using their words to communicate and who teach their kids to hate their enemies.) At least God has answered our prayers and we are still resolved to HS Daniel, just not anymore with this clique of hs families who don't care for us, but pretend that they do when we are around them.
I was not worried about the rejection from the Hsers, but I was wrong to worry about Daniel not having their HS support in a HS environment any longer...(Lord forgive me for not trusting in your providence more in this area.)
I can relate Beloved...I try to not debate or argue the scriptures with anyone. If they are erring when speaking of scriptures, I will correct them; if they ask a question and I think they are sincerely wanting to know the truth then I will tell them; if they aren't really wanting to know the truth and they just do want to hear, then I will not give them them any precious truths. I am not saying that I don't get hornswaggled into speaking truths sometimes by people who just want the head knowledge or to test me in what I know, b/c I do get snookered at times by them. And when I am rejected, I think about how the Lord has not opened their ears and how God will credit me for being persecuted and how He will hold them accountable at the White Throne Judgement: that is all that I can do. But, you have a great attitude for not taking it personally Beloved when the churches kick you out! I do not go to a church anymore...but, if He ever leads me back to one and they kick me out, well, then I will just rejoice, knowing that I did the right thing by standing up for the truth. (DH did this in our last congregation and all of the men still hate him for telling the truth, even though theyknow that he is right.
....thank you all for your prayers to help me to get discernment...it worked ;)
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GODBLESS! U Susan,
Jus keep strong in ur Faith az it is in my way of seeing fingZ, d@ it is Soully between U & GOD!, & nt in wot da nxt person is sayn or doin, dey r wher GOD wants dem @ His point & Time. My Prayers b wit U Susan (its alL GOOD 2 b emotional ) lol!, thru my xspiernce of lettn out emotin I felt Closer! 2 GOD, Peace 2 U.
much muchLOVE!! Pera
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Thank you Pera. :)
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;) :D most welcum! :),
muchLOVE!! Pera
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We all got to live in society unless we hide away somewhere. I don't see much difference in thinking you are right about everything so you don't associate within society than a lot of religious people I have known. Like, I had this Auntie who didn't believe girls should wear pants. My sis did so my Auntie's kids were not allowed to be around us. She said the Bible said it was a sin. People have hang-ups about buying food in a store that sells beer. You don't like beer, you don't have to buy it. It is segregating yourself from the world. I am not saying you have to be buds with people you just got to get along with all kinds of different people. I have a problem with 99% of the people not having the truth and 1 % having it! What does that say? 1 % is in a little club that has the answers? You got to raise your kids the way you see fit but eventually the time comes when they got to go out into the world.
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I agree wholeheartely Seminole! We would be no better than they if we did the same segregating as they do. Getting along with everyone regardless of our differences is what life is all about, not that we have to agree with them, just treat everyone as an equal and we can still have out preferences as to how close we allow ourselves to become to certain people. :)
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Hi Susan,
You wrote: "we can still have out preferences as to how close we allow ourselves to become to certain people. "
Yes we do, we have "our" preferences, but do we really? Do we really have the power to choose of whom we associate or not? Is this saying that one can do something on ones own, by their understanding?
This is REALLY difficicult, because if by the grace of God, we can do nothing outside of His plan then surely neither can any other. God is the Master potter and we are the work of his hands; to say that one pot is better, prettier, more useful than another is the first mistake we can make, for are we not then saying: "Boy, God you really messed up on that one!"
God cannot create anything imperfectly, we cannot see through his eyes, but by his grace, we can feel his spirit and we will never help the Samaritan, betean and left for dead on the side of the road, by distancing our selves from him, rather we must walk through the same valley of the shadow of death as he. What better and needful place could there possibly be to bare the fruits of the spirit?
Gal 5:22, 23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
This is how I see it Susan; you are a good friend and a valued sister :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Darren,
In response to your response to my statement about us having preferences, No, of course this is not to say that we/ I can do something on my/one's own without God, by my understanding is that I am simply choosing between the choices that have been given to me by HIM, thus I call it my preference Thus, my prefernce is really what God would have me to choose; it is the only choice ultimately. I did not want to give the impression that I thought that God can be imperfect when I spoke of using my preferences.
The homeschoolers who have created a clique within our already exclusive hs group does not want US to be around them or in their teaching co-op/sharing clique and playtimes and even with personal get togethers. even though there are to not be support groups within our group so; we will just give them what they want; we will just not participate in their homeschool clique that they do not want us to be a part of, so we will leave them alone so that they can have their own co-op. It would do us no good to try to invade their clique wiyhin our group. They have seen my fruits for going on three yrs so far, I and I see it as though I fight not against flesh and blood humans, rather their the spirits within
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Hmmm, I must have been too tired last night and hit the send button before I had finished (sorry.) ???
Darren, I hope that you are not saying that I am saying that I think that I (a pot) am a better than these homeschoolers (pots), b/c I do not think that; we are all have equal opportuntiy in the end and we are all where God has put us, (diff callings) all are called and few others are chosen if they finish the race...He made us all equal but different in this life; that does not equal 'better than thou'; just being where God put us (vessles of honor and vessles of dishonor), we all are exactly where we are supposed to be in Him, so no use to think that we are better just b/c we have been given more truths than the 'called' have been given. True Darren, those whom God made are by no means IMPERFECT just b/c they haven't had the truth revealed to them uet.
What I was going to say is that I think that we have perservered through much cruelty by them by having spent 3 long yrs and much love, kindness, pateience, time, labor,money and service in order to assist in the co-ops along with the other mothers to no avail in the ling run; we loved them and forgave them and loved our enemies...even though we have been persecuted, unloved, used, ignored, despised, gossipped about, lied on, made to feel guilty if I didn't do what they thought I should at the time that they thought I should do it, etc...so in submitting to my dh, my spiritual covering, he says to leave them alone, so that is also why we are pulling out.
darren, I too appreciate yu as a friend and a brother in Christ. I can always count on you to sharpen my sword with yours! Thank you for caring. Have a blessed day and much love to you!!! :D
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Hi Susan :)
I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. I am sorry for putting you on the spot, but I think you responded perfectly.
It can be very difficult deciding what to do, I mean we can ask ourselves: "What does God want me to do?" and rack our brains trying to seminate an answer. Likewise, we can ask God himself: "God, what do you want me to do?" Sounds reasonable but the trick is hearing the answer. I know I used to ask God lot's of things, and then I would see many answers, often conflicting ones, because I was using my own understanding to try to fathom what God was "trying" to tell me.
Hang on a minute, God doesn't try anything. He simply does! That realization was massive and put me in my place, for God's answers were not something I had to work out, they were what I had to learn to hear (feel) For His Spirit communicates to the spirit in me, seperate from any human thought process. And I think this is where you are now Susan. :)
We do not have to beat ourselves up for failing to make people understand, neither do we have to think that God does not want us to associate with the likes of those you mention. Rather, all we need is complete trust in him and and the knowledge that He will lead us where he wants us to go. He is leading you in the direction you need to go. :)
Thanks Susan,
Love in Christ,
Darren
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ALAS...TRUE DISCERNMENT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME...(THANK YOU LORD), (AND I THANK THOSE OF YOU WHOM CARED ENOUGH TO PROVOKE MY THINKING HERE.) :D ALL IS WELL WITH MY SOUL NOW. :D
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I believe from what you have written, Susan, that you must be a wonderful , loving and caring mother and person. It seems like God is using you in many ways. From somebody who doesn't know you, you seem by your writing to be sincerely walking in the path God has for you. Your kids may not fully realize it now but they got somebody who has all their best interests at heart. This world would be a better place if more young ones had mothers that care so much about them and about God. Best of luck and wishes to you in your life of serving God.
Nole
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Amen to that Nole,:)
much muchLOVE!! Pera
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Wow Nole and Pera,
I am humbled!!! Thank you so much for your kind words!!!!! That really did make my day, melted my heart, and brought tears to my eyes!!! Thank you so much, I needed to hear that! :D
I have 5 grown step kids whom are out of the house and only one child at home...8 y.o. Daniel Isaiah that I HS.