Amazing, ,makes perfect sense. Jesus is a transLITeration not translation. Thank you Dennis for posting this. I have learned an incredibly interesting truth today.
my favorite line:
"Okay... who am I to challenge The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia? Well, really, no one. But let me give it a try anyway"
I started laughing so hard, classic Ray. God I miss him.
So basically God the father is his own son in human form. He had relations with mary to create a human form version of himself? The son is his own father in human form? The son come using the Father's name? Why is there a sense of two different entities if they are the same being? In genesis. God said let us make man..... That's plural, not singular. Seems to point to a group consciousness rather than a singular consciousness and why did Jesus pray to his father or felt that his father forsaked him if he is the father himself in human form? Its like praying to yourself in a sense? Please help me understand?
The thing is that Ray did not finish his study on this God enigma. What we need to do is get into your Bibles people, if you have the Spirit indwelling, why can't you search the Scriptures for answers?
Luke 11:9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
I know that we depended on Ray to put all these things together for us, and he gaves us a great deal, praise God for that. Now use what you have learned and continue your study and meditation and God will help your understanding on these things. There is much and more in the Scriptures, let the Spirit show you what wonderful things you can learn.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
The thing is that Ray did not finish his study on this God enigma. What we need to do is get into your Bibles people, if you have the Spirit indwelling, why can't you search the Scriptures for answers?
Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. Deut 6:4
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am Jehovah, and there is no other. Isa 45:6
I didn't get the impression that Ray was teaching the Father and Jesus were one and the same being. What the paper is basically saying is that Jesus was given the Father's name, Jehovah was transliterated to the name Jesus. Children take their Father's name even to this day and we see where this custom came from.
Hope this helps,
Marques
All this foolishness makes me wish I never posted the article. I have other things Ray left on his PC that will never see the light of day.
All this foolishness makes me wish I never posted the article. I have other things Ray left on his PC that will never see the light of day.
Hello Dennis,
If you could sleep over it and have a change of heart... why don't you post Ray's unfinished papers and then lock the subject.
Each of us could then let the Spirit reveal to us what is needed to be revealed in our individual walk. We each will continue to grow at our own pace.
In His Love,
doug
Gina- I have responded to all of your pms except the one you sent me yesterday. I did not answer that one pm because it is the copy and paste of what you already wrote to me on this subject and I answered it here instead. What's the point of answering the same thing twice? You're going to read it here too.
I am really frustrated. I feel like you are blaming me for causing the upset and trouble and wanted me to stop asking for "more". I wasn't asking for more, it was a simply of wanting to know the Father's name and talking about it. Is that too much to ask? I knew that the article were incomplete. That's common sense. I simply wanted a fulfilling conversation about that article with you all. I was just simply trying to help talk about the possibilities. I wanted to get an idea and i wanted other's thoughts on the subject. Nothing official, It is just talk, talk abut things that could mean what it is. Imagine this as if we were all here at a luncheon in person, You would love that kind of talk, it can be beautiful, just talking about the article and what it could mean when it comes to the other enigmas in relation to that article.
What I love about my deaf culture is that we can talk about anything without feeling like we're walking on eggshells all the time. It's like family talking to family. if that makes sense. You don't have to worry about crossing any line- I want to be able to have a conversation with you all, talking about ray's articles, the bible, and Keep it all casual and nothing formal. Why can't we all connect like that. After all we are really all family in spirit? I know being on the internet can be diffcult because we can't see the behavior and facial expressions in person.
I certainly don't want to hurt or offend anyone because that's not me at all. I certainly don't want to start something that's not even there in the first place. We are all here to talk about God's beautiful truths and simply connect. I am really glad Dennis posted that article about God's name, because it confirmed many of my feelings I already have about the subject and I feel more free. If you don't want me to ask, that's fine too. I'll just shut the hell up. You of all people, should understand how that feels, not being able to talk to anyone in your home town, community- your own family about Ray's articles, because they would just mock you and make you feel rildiclious for even bringing it up. or even tell you to shut up simply because you just don't understand God's truths in comparable to their understanding of God's truths. It's not a good feeling and I understand that very well. That is how you made me feel and that hurt.
God led me here for a reason and I'm glad he did. I love the posts you guys make. It's beautiful and it's enlightening for sure. I did not mean to make Dennis feel regret for posting the article. I am really sorry for that. That was not my intention at all. I was just trying to make a casual conversation wtih you all about the possiblities of what it could mean. I already know what Ray wrote and understood it fine. It is the deep spirit of the article that's hovering that I am asking about. what it could mean. If that makes sense.
I hate to cause trouble really just because I wanted to know something. I also do not want to have to feel like walking on eggshells every time I ask something.
I know I have alot to overcome when it comes to limiting my questions when I ask. I tend to think it out loud when i type, I tend to blurt it all out and just say, like I said.. its like talking to family more than talking to strangers here. I have to learn that too. Like i said, please be patient with me, with time, I will learn to watch what i type here and tread lightly. I also need to learn to acknowledge the links people send my way But just know that I do read them after a link is posted in the topic conversation. Sometimes a conversation in that topic gets carried to a different subject and I didn't want to interrupt and I just stopped responding and just read what they had to say on the subject. sometimes it just answers my question :) Thanks for letting me know what I can improve on. I appreciate it. I will work on that.
Dennis-
In earlier conversation, I was only suggesting what if because The Father and Son has the same name. Jehovah and Jesus. I assumed maybe they are the same essence of the same being- Father - invisible- The son- flesh version- More like a clone twin of each other that just split. in essence, the same being. if you get my meaning? But Gina pointed out it is more like Father and son family thing, like Smith and son, Jennings and son, Vogel and son, everyone in the same family has the same last name. So whenever we join the Father's family- we carry his name. we become one family with them. Like son come out of the mother, same sense. I understand that now.
Am i on the right track?
Denise-
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13550.0.html
It seems Ray thought this topic was a tad more complicated than just a Father and Son being one in a family relationship. If you read the several emails from Ray over the past year and Ray's article on his creed about this nature of God topic, you will begin to see there is much, much more to God.
Isn't this closeness that Jesus has with His Father that makes them ONE GOD, also what will be OURS when we will be ONE FAMILY (ALL INCLUDED) when God is ALL in ALL? This however, doesn't mean that all will be one lump where nobody will be distinguishable from each other.
Hello Marques,
No, it does not help at all. I'm aware with what Ray said at his March 2011 bible study.
It was Ray's emails after that which just amazed me. I believe the April 2, 2011 may have been the first? In that one, the third paragraph from the bottom, Ray said that all prior teachings by the churches didn't explain the nature of God. Ray also said that his paper on the trinity and the origin of Jesus did not explain all the scriptures on this subject either. From that, I learned Ray was rethinking some of his prior papers and wanted to go into greater detail on the Nature of God. Here is another email from Ray that just stunned me and gave me insight into deeper understandings to come.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456
I had a telephone conversation with Ray in August 2011 on several topics. I told Ray that what he implied in his recent emails just stunned me. That I was dumbfounded by their implications. I also said that I thought many on the Forum would have difficulty with these ideas. Ray told me that we all would need to change some of our previous understandings.
This thread makes it clear to me that many don't have a clue where Ray was going. But I found in Ray's article on his creed that he had a conclusion in mind.
The answers are clearly stated in the scriptures. But most our blinded until the Spirit gives us the understanding. The first step is to bring together all the scriptures on God, and Jesus, and how they interact. But without the Spirit, it will be meaningless.
In order not to cause confusion and break the fellowship of the Forum, it will best to drop the subject, and let God guide our way.
One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Our God is a strange God. He does do things His own way. 8)
I no longer believe that Jesus is separate from the Father. The scriptures teach that the Father is God. The scriptures teach that Jesus is God. If the Father and Jesus are separate, then you have two separate Gods. However, the scriptures teach that there is only One God.
Jesus spoke the Truth when He said, "I (Jesus) and the Father are One."
One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Our God is a strange God. He does do things His own way. 8)
One question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Hi John,QuoteOne question I have is why God allowed this topic to be brought up by Ray, and then just hang there without a definitive resolution?
Because God did bring this questions out through His servant, Ray, as we all listened to Ray and these things that Ray brought up about this enigma, very obviously, stirred up a lot of thought and questions on this. But God does not depend on any man and He can/will easily bring the answers to this question to any of us whenever He chooses.
I think we are missing the obvious on this inexplicable relationship that the Father and the Son have in oneness... that is the enigma! It's not that the Father and Son are the same being, it's that the connection that they do have is near (if not totally) impossible for a human mind to comprehend.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marques,
You said I referenced Ray's emails but never posted them. Actually, I posted two of them above. Here is a third one.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html
Take a look at the third paragraph from the bottom. Ray says, and I quote, "Nor does my paper on the trinity or the origin of Jesus explain and harmonize all of these Scriptures. I am seeing glimpses of a greater understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son, but my understanding is yet far from complete."
I understood from Ray's statement that his prior understanding on this nature of God matter was incomplete and more information would be forthcoming.
Also, I do not believe that the Father and Jesus are the same being. Nor do I think Ray thought so either. I don't think the word being is even in the scriptures much less using that term in reference to the Father.
I said I do not believe Jesus is separate from the Father. Because, if they are separate then you have two separate Gods. The scriptures teach there is One God.
I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being. But I do believe they are One because that is what the scriptures teach over and over. They are not two Gods. And I do think the human mind can understand with the Holy Spirit. Remember what Jesus said that there is nothing impossible to God.
I do not believe that the Father and Son are the same being.
I couldn't find the word "Enigma" in any bible translation, so maybe that is why this topic has thrown us into a state of confusion. Just a thought.
This thread is a sad testimonial to Ray.... I personally don't think you all are going to resolve this matter
Ah but it is. I just run across it in the CLV.
1Co 13:12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also."
I find that very interesting that as other translations say we see things dimly, it stated that we see them in an enigma. The word enigma means something obscure or hard to understand. Does explain a lot.
QuoteThis thread is a sad testimonial to Ray.... I personally don't think you all are going to resolve this matter
I think this is a wonderful testimonial to Ray. I'm so grateful to God.
I'm telling you, God provided for me abundantly through this thread.
As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.
If anyone thinks or believes God is impossible to understand then He will be impossible to understand to that person.
If anyone refuses to believe Jesus when He said He'd send the Comforter to teach you all things, then you won't receive the Comforter and your understanding won't be opened.
All we have to do is ... pay attention to all the Word of God. And believe it.
Dennis-
In earlier conversation, I was only suggesting what if because The Father and Son has the same name. Jehovah and Jesus. I assumed maybe they are the same essence of the same being- Father - invisible- The son- flesh version- More like a clone twin of each other that just split. in essence, the same being. if you get my meaning? But Gina pointed out it is more like Father and son family thing, like Smith and son, Jennings and son, Vogel and son, everyone in the same family has the same last name. So whenever we join the Father's family- we carry his name. we become one family with them. Like son come out of the mother, same sense. I understand that now.
Am i on the right track?
Denise-
Yes, I would agree Denise.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
For this is true love that we challenge each other to continue to grow in the Faith!
For this is true love that we challenge each other to continue to grow in the Faith!
Nicely put, Jerry. :)
René
Thank you Kat,
I agree with you...I believe that God wants us to study and knock, seek and ask.... now is the time. He took Ray home from us for a reason otherwise he would be still with us...
As much as we miss him we need to be thankful to our Father for leaving us this way so we will rely on Him totally and get ready for more on our own....if we are His elect our ears are open to hear and eyes to see...
Anyway this is what I feel deep in my spirit even though I still have lots to study from Rays papers I will continue to seek Gods Truth...
I love your answers Kat.
p.s. I know I'm new here and don't write to much but it is nice to read your Posts and learn. Thank you all.
Vera
Took my own advice and laid aside any assumptions. Here's what I got:
Ray started this paper like he has started nearly every paper. Exposing those who contradict and teaching sound doctrine. (That's the very purpose for Bible-Truths.com--sez so right on the fron t page.
What/who did he expose? This sect of 'holy-name' afficianodos. Small, maybe, but vocal.
What sound doctrine did he teach? That the Father gave Jesus the same name as the Father, and that both share the same attributes.
What/who did he expose? Those who claim that Jesus wasn't around in the Old Testament.
What sound doctrine did he teach? That Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.