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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: levycarneiro on December 06, 2012, 05:19:25 PM
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Hello BT family!
Christians that bash believers in Universal Reconciliation mistakenly say we teach that the wicked will have an "easy salvation", having lived and done all they wanted while in this life.
I understand the truth is: it's not going to be be easy for anybody, here or later. "For there is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11).
Is it going to be harder for the many later? Is there anything in Ray's writings that expands on this question?
Thanks,
Levy
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Well, I think about this in the following way. Many people tend to think that their problems are unique, or that they suffer much more than others. This also includes Christians. But suffering is not unique to Christians, as I'm sure everyone agrees with. Neither is it unique to non-Christians. Many Muslims suffer much, for example the ones who were persecuted in Burma not so long ago. I don't pretend to know how much or in what way or what time God will make anyone suffer, but like you say Levy, God is not a respecter of persons. We all have our own walks which are unique to us. I think the reason for any suffering be it little or much, is to teach us to be merciful and loving so we can comfort others when they need love and comfort:
2 Corinthians 1-7: Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
I remember Ray mentioned this when he suffered with his disease. He said he believed he had this disease because God wanted him to experience it so that he could have a greater understanding and love for others who suffer. Amen!
God bless you,
Eirik
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Hi Levy,
Well I think that God is developing all of us into unique individual by means of different life situations. None of us will experience the exact same things and it will create and vast number of differing characters and personalities.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
So certainly some experience more pain and suffering, some are takers and users and give back very little. I believe there are those that enjoy adventures to get adrenalin rush and some that get their thrills when getting away with crimes or making people suffer. We know that there are all types, and though we don't like what the wicked do, but they all will be dealt with.
Isa 29:16 Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
"He did not make me"?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
"He has no understanding"?
There is no doubt we are what He has given us to be, but with whatever life experienced we have had, we will have to give an accounting for it all. So if you think about it, there is a very wide margin of experiences in this life, a person that died as a child will not have nearly as much to give account for as a person that lived many years. A small child that died would need to be comforted, cared for and taught. But some have lived lives of much debauchery and since we have to give account for every word, how much more so for atrocious wicked acts.
Mat 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
v. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
I can see how some will require much more purging and cleansing than other. I believe it will all be customized to fit every persons precisely as needed and not all exactly the same.
Is it going to be harder for the many later?
So it depends, for some it will certainly be hard, even tormenting to rid them of their debase minds, at least that's the way I see it.
Isa 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
v. 2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
v. 3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
v. 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
v. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
v. 6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
v. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
v. 8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den.
v. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus said in Matthew 12:42 " A greater than Solomon is here."
I have thought about what it must have been like to stand before Solomon as he ruled and judged Israel in his day.
He made some remarkable judgements, and the one concerning the two women that were fighting over the baby demonstrates the Wisdom he possessed as given unto him by God.
People were drawn to him from all over the world at that time. Some no doubt felt like they were wronged, no doubt the woman that lost the battle to the real mother must have felt the loss, even though the judgement was the right one.
The people of that day must have witnessed marvelous works of God through Solomon, but I don't see where he did any healing, opening blinded eyes, deaf ears, nor cast out any devils as our Lord and Saviour did.
I can imagine what it was like to sit and listen to Jesus as he spoke, see how he moved, interacted with the crowds, and the individuals. Instructing Peter, James, John, and the rest of his disciples. How he settle disputes between them, and the judgements he hurled at the religious leaders of that day that sent them packing in anger and disgust with him.
I can also imagine how it could be at the judgement seat of Christ, to stand before him with him looking you straight in the eye, knowing he can tell a person everthing they ever did, both good, and evil.
That's enough to make every knee bow in my opinion. Only he knows what the judgement and the punishment is going to be, rather or not it will be many stripes, or few.
I don't know, but I can imagine how someone like Hitler would react to awake and find themselves facing their Creator. Could be very humbling, I can imagine.
Joel
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Hey guys, thanks for everyone's comments so far!
1. I understand there will be shades of glory, some will be greater than others in the Kingdom:
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11
So just for clarity's sake, and using a numbers analogy for clarity, in the Kingdom we will have glories such as 1, 50, 15, 200, 30, 5000 "points", or what have you. Again, this is just a metaphor to get my point across.
2. I understand there are unique individuals, each person is created and is living an experience of its own. For example, God created and formed Saul into Paul, in a way that He will not do in my life. So Paul is greater in the Kingdom of Heavens compared to myself (if I even enter the Kingdom), because God wanted this way, and thus created circumstances and life experiences, and hardships, and miracles, in his life in such a way he was exactly what God wanted.
3. I also understand that some do more evil now, and will need more correction later. God is just:
"...But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few {stripes}." Luke 12:48
So again using numbers to explain, in a scale where evil is negative (-) and good works and righteousness are positive (+), those doing evils to the scale of -20, -500, -10,000, will later in the LOF rightly receive the appropriate correction from God, there is, +20, +500, +10,000. Each one according to his works, right.
3. So my question is: is there any indication in the Scriptures that she, Jane Doe, as an individual, if she is one of the chosen, that will be easier for her now, than being saved/purified later? My point is: God is no respecter of persons, and so to my understanding it's kind of weird or unjust to think that God is giving us the privilege to be saved now in an easier form or way, than later. Know what I mean? The fact that God's chosen only a few and is saving us now is not the point (that's up to God), the point is can we honestly say to someone "repent now or the Judgment will be harder" or should we just say "repent now or you will face Judgment" ? While in fact, now is not easier for the Elect, it's just possible/feasible for the Elect because God does the works and the will.
Thanks family :)
Levy
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Well the thing is God has develop this plan and it will be carried out precisely as He has ordained it to be. Now His plan has at this time a group of just a few being prepared to serve/help/rule in the kingdom to bring in the rest to salvation. So the elect few have been ordain before the creation to be who and what they are… do they deserved that? Only because it is God's will. The elect are simply fulfilling a part of God's plan, just like the rest are… is it just? Well there is nothing for anybody, that is an elect, to think highly of themselves for.
1Cor. 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called].
v. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
v. 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
v. 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
v. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
v.31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."
But as you have said is it easier now for the elect, than later for the rest? Maybe so, if you are blaspheming God now, He will pour out His wrath on them later.
Luk 3:7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
But I don't think all would have God's wrath, if they did not teach horrible things about Him in this life. But all would need to be purged of any wrong behavior would be necessary and teaching righteousness.
It is a privilege to be of the elect, there is no doubt about it, but it is not our decision to be one or not, they are 'elected' by God to be in that position. So you can and should rejoice in the hope of being an elect, but we can take no credit or boost for what we have been given.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Levy,
3. So my question is: is there any indication in the Scriptures that she, Jane Doe, as an individual, if she is one of the chosen, that will be easier for her now, than being saved/purified later?
Yes and no.
Using Paul as an example, he was routinely physically beaten, (bad now) , however, he says that he was (spiritually) glad for this, (good now), so I guess it depends on what current life you are asking about. The carnal or the spiritual.
Ray has mentioned in his LOF series that if you are not being persecuted, then you are probably not 'chosen'. (In comparison, Churchianity says that once you are saved, by their standards that is, your life will be great.)
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html)
Anyone going through very severe trials, problems, tribulation, judgment, chastening, and scourging is considered by the Church to be a gross sinner under a curse. Yet what does God’s Word tell us:
"For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS, and SCOURGES every son whom He receives" (Heb. 12:6).
Do we think this Scripture lies? If God calls you to be a son, then He will SCOURGE you. There are absolutely no exceptions and there is absolutely no way around these Scriptures. I have heard professing Christians of 70 years confess that they never suffered persecution a day in their life. One remarked how lucky we are to live at this time and in this country where people no longer persecute Christians. Unbelievable.
"Yea, and all that will live godly [devoutly] in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution" (II Tim. 3:12).
Ray has also pointed out elsewhere that purification of the non chosen later will not be a picnic, (bad later), but the end result will be good, (good much later).
I'm guessing that your question is as to whether you might want to share the truth with someone knowing that his/her carnal life here on earth may get quite difficult? Would this be correct?
If yes, I would say, share what you know.
When Ray was asked about prayer, 'why pray for something if God is in control anyway'? Ray's reply was that it is your prayer that gets the ball rolling, (this may not be quite how Ray put it, but my point is, your prayer is needed). Thinking along the same lines, it's quite possible that, though a person is chosen, he/she may need your input to get the ball rolling. (I currently have no scriptural, or Ray material, to prove this point. It's just theory on my part).
I personally do not go out of my way to tell people what I know. Not because I want to save them from a life of persecution, but rather, nobody wants to know the truth. In the course of conversation, if someone mentions something that is unscriptural, I will drop a hint to see if they want more, but most do not. A few do, so I will print out Rays material for them, but so far, it has not gone further.
My favorite is when someone at work does or says something off color then says, "I'm going to hell'. I respond as sincerely as I can and say, 'There is no Hell', but for the most part, it goes nowhere. If interest is peeked, I go into a little more detail only to be met with the blank stares of disinterest or looked at like I'm a loony because the church says there is a hell. One time, when sharing this information with a 'Christian', he told me that the information was from the Devil and stormed away. That actually made me smile.
Though I have been a lurker here for a couple of years, I'm still new to all of this and reserve the right to be completely off the mark with this reply. :)
Mike
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i read somewhere that believers NOW are called "overcomers", but it does not refer to believers later as overcomers, as satan will be bound, their hearts will be changed and they basically will not have to 'overcome'...this may indicate that it is harder now.....could be wrong tho...? just a thought.
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Thanks for the post Michael. You story sounds a great deal like ours. We do have this one neighbor who in his heart it all makes sense to him with all we tell him about salvation for all. Then he goes back to church on Sunday and the "birds of the air" steal it all away from him again and again and again. But he does still keep coming back, but mostly to talk about what the 'church' told him and then he does listen when we tell him the truth.
I am convinced that he is a trial from God too, as it is very frustrating to me and my husband, but we feel compelled to keep telling him the truth. Arrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhh!
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i read somewhere that believers NOW are called "overcomers", but it does not refer to believers later as overcomers, as satan will be bound, their hearts will be changed and they basically will not have to 'overcome'...this may indicate that it is harder now.....could be wrong tho...? just a thought.
Nice, that's interesting. So the Elect overcoming in a more hostile world now, with Satan loose, means more rewards for the Elect in the Kingdom. So it's fair: harder now, more rewards later. Makes sense.
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Hello Mike!
Yes and no.
Using Paul as an example, he was routinely physically beaten, (bad now) , however, he says that he was (spiritually) glad for this, (good now), so I guess it depends on what current life you are asking about. The carnal or the spiritual.
I mean spiritual, as in the hardships and persecutions the Elect go through now.
"For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS, and SCOURGES every son whom He receives" (Heb. 12:6).
Exactly.
Ray has also pointed out elsewhere that purification of the non chosen later will not be a picnic, (bad later), but the end result will be good, (good much later).
That's basically my question in other words :)
Where in the Scriptures can we know this 'picnic' is really worse than our 'picnic' now (tribulations, etc).
Judging by the Ray's comment you posted, it appears it's probably "just" bad, but maybe not worse.
This question here in this post, just came to my mind while sharing the truth with my brother, and I caught myself thinking "self note: investigate later if the many's LOF is harder than the Elect's LOF now". That's basically it :)
I personally do not go out of my way to tell people what I know. Not because I want to save them from a life of persecution, but rather, nobody wants to know the truth. In the course of conversation, if someone mentions something that is unscriptural, I will drop a hint to see if they want more, but most do not. A few do, so I will print out Rays material for them, but so far, it has not gone further.
My favorite is when someone at work does or says something off color then says, "I'm going to hell'. I respond as sincerely as I can and say, 'There is no Hell', but for the most part, it goes nowhere. If interest is peeked, I go into a little more detail only to be met with the blank stares of disinterest or looked at like I'm a loony because the church says there is a hell. One time, when sharing this information with a 'Christian', he told me that the information was from the Devil and stormed away. That actually made me smile.
I always love to know how others share the truth, how they interact in situations like these. Very good, thanks for sharing.
Though I have been a lurker here for a couple of years, I'm still new to all of this and reserve the right to be completely off the mark with this reply. :)
Mike
Welcome, good to have you here! I've been blessed so much since I joined and I'm grateful for the patience our brothers and sisters here have on all of us newcomers such as myself :)
God bless you all
Levy
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Hi Levy,
Found this little snippet for ya.
http://www.bible-truths.com/lake3.html
Make no mistake about it; if you will follow Jesus Christ, you will experience many of the hardships spoken of in these Scriptures. I am not saying that it is necessary to teach youngsters in Sunday School these deeper truths of God, but if we adults are to ever go on to maturity in Christ, it’s time to get our heads out of the sand!
The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).
Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.
There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).
Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement! Let’s read it:
WHEN GRACE IS A VERB
Grace means favor, a gift, to be cheerful, well, happy, graciously, freely, deliverance from danger, and a dozen other benevolent qualities of peace, joy, goodness, and salvation. It is one of those truly wonderful words of blessing. But just how does it operate in "the real world" as we say? A definition does not tell us everything about a word. We can, likewise, define "love" as, a deep, tender feeling of affection. But does that definition tell us how love actually functions?
We learned that "...when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).
Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).
Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!
"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
"Grace" is not a stagnant feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.
"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God’s very image.
The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US -- EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.
When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.
The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.
When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?
If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.
Here an email response from Ray that I thought might be worth sharing.
Wow Ray, I really have to thank you.
I read your paper 'exposing those who contradict'. I always thought I have to live a righteous and perfect life to be saved, but now I can live how ever I please, go to sleep for a while (when I die) sleep till Jesus comes again, be resurrected from the dead just like He was, REPENT, and then be reigning on earth with Him for eternity afterwards.
I'm glad you made me realize and showed me proof through scriptures (gave me Gods ok) living a life of sin wont effect my eternity in anyway, maybe just my life here on earth somewhat (what goes around comes around) but that don't really matter to me because I get to live how I want to live now in exchange, so its worth it to me, a little punishment here and there ain't a big deal ... what's the worst that could happen to me, pain and suffering don't bother me ... death I guess, but that will be abolished too, and I'll be sleeping with no perception of my physical death so it don't matter.
I cant wait to start sinning again. I miss doing so many things I don't do no more (especially committing adultery), makes me love Jesus even more that He saved me from all my sins I committed and plan to commit, but I still don't understand why He had to save me or what He saved me from since there is no HELL or any type of eternal death to have ever worried about, what would have happened if Jesus never saved me?
Maybe you could explain if you got the time, or tell me which of your papers to read that will answer my question.
Thanks again Ray, God bless you.
P.S. I guess all those who told me, it don't matter how you live all you have to do is believe in Jesus. I guess they were right, but even then you made me realize that even if I didn't know or ever believe in Jesus or God the Father, it still wouldn't have effected my eternity in any way. Thank you.
[Ray Replies]
Dear Nameless:
You speak as FOOL!
God will bring all mankind to repentance and they will learn righteousness just as Isaiah prophesied.
There is coming a time of severe judgment upon sinning mankind. It will not be a walk in the park for any of them. God will purge them all with the fires of His Spirit. But then, all mankind will be saved. This occurs at the white throne judgment, not when Christ returns to reign on the earth.
And, no you will NOT reign with Christ if you purposefully go back into sin. It is the "overcomer" who will reign with Christ.
Of course your foolishness speaks volumes regarding your motives in following God. You don't believe that living righteously is the right way, the best way, or the ONLY WAY to live in the first place. I have not taught any such foolishness as you are proposing.
And I firmly believe that it is people with your attitude that will be judged the most severely. YOU MOCK GOD AND YOU MOCK HIS WORD! Your own words condemn you. You need to repent of your rotten attitude.
Maybe you need to read "EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT" again, but this time look up all the Scriptural references I give.
Sincerely,
Ray
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Hope this helps a little
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Lots of a great replies here.
It is the exact same fire; however, it will be harder and more severe for the wicked to go through the fire simply because they are not at all willing to forsake their wicked thoughts and ways. When God knocks on their "doors," they don't open. They don't say, Come in and let's eat, I want to hear what you have to say. They will run the other way (much like a child will do to their parent when they're caught doing things they shouldn't). So judgment and chastening is the same for both the wicked and the just but it will only be more severe because there will be so much resistance coming from the wicked, but it is the exact same fire. There is a proverb (and I can't remember which one it is) that says it is an evil thing for the wicked to give up his ways. And that's the only reason why it will be harder for them; not because their sins are so much more vile than anyone else's because they really aren't. You break one law you're guilty of all.
And that makes me think of how Abraham was instructed by God to take his son Isaac to be sacrificed on the altar. What a horrifying thought. Imagine being obedient to that command when it comes to your own child. Geez, the thought of that freaks me out! It's one thing if the child is someone you don't especially like, but how obedient would you want to be to that command when you're son is completely innocent? Geez. But then God provided Abraham the sacrifice and Isaac wasn't sacrificed after all. So while Abraham was willing to be obedient to God's command, God already had in place a sacrifice--a propitiation.
We have propitiation for our sins, and not only ours but for the whole world! But "Christians" don't like the sound of that. They don't like that Christ died for the world of unbelievers too! That's an evil thought that "christians" will have to forsake and bitterly repent of one day and it will be very hard for them to give that up. And it's going to be total torture for them. Maybe just as hard for them as it will be for Hitler to forsake his ways in thinking that he is better than the people he murdered. Because after all, don't Christians believe they're better than Hitler? They don't see that except for a few minor changes they would have done the same things that Hitler did. Just because Hitler and his ilk will be saved, doesn't mean that they're "deserving" of salvation, but that if they are not saved by God, then that will make God out to be a total failure! Is that what they want? A failure for a god? Many christians, like myself, go through this evil thing where we think, Hmmm... I don't want him in my club because he doesn't think like me....
But they never stop to consider that one "day" they will think like them. We will be like-minded when God is all in all.
That doesn't mean we have to be all "huggie huggie and kissy-face" with the Hitlers of the world, because that is not what God commands.
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Friend Gina,
I liked your contribution very much. It seemed to cover the areas that hadn't been explained elsewhere.
My contribution is as follows: Sometimes a really "good" person who does not want to show off their "superiority" is doing the exact same thing by glorying in their own perfection so to speak. In that case, they who have been good due to timidity or fear of punishment or fear of not being accepted by their parents or fellow workers are just as much in need of correction.
God doesn't respect a fearful attitude or one of holding back your desires due to fear of confrontation. God expects us to try our ideas and find out through experience that our ideas don't work for the benefit of others or for that matter for our own long term benefit.
It's like the man who buried his talent instead of investing it for gain. Mt 25:14.
God wants us to act on what we have been given even if we stumble and receive needed correction. Learn to step out in faith and take the risk and learn the lesson.
The other aspect of my view is that we in the modern age have been given so much that we tend to take if for granted. We tend to believe that we have accomplished more than any other society and that we are more intelligent or gifted than those who had to live off of the land and labor 16 hours a day just to survive.
So then one of the fiery tests we must face is recognizing our own limitations and helplessness apart from God's gifts and God's strengthening in our daily lives.
A really rich person with no daily fear of hunger or being homeless still has to overcome the feeling of superiority or condescension toward the less accomplished among us.
A superior attitude of self satisfaction can be just as difficult to correct as the one of a person who beats his wife and children into submission. So the lake of fire will definitely be needed for them to mold them into a useful vessel for God's spirit. Great wealth can be just as much a burden as great poverty until one learns humility and reverence for God and all that we have been given.
Again thanks for your comments, I-bob
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Hi again Levy,
I don't know if you got your answer yet, but I ran across this last night from Part 1 of the LOF series, in the "God IS this lake of fire!" section.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html)
"God doesn’t change. He will use the same method in the day of judging at the white throne as He uses on US. Although the intensity will get considerably more severe for those who blaspheme till the end."
Ray did not give scriptural reference, but I'm sure he knows what he's talking about..
Mike
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Lots of a great replies here.
It is the exact same fire; however, it will be harder and more severe for the wicked to go through the fire simply because they are not at all willing to forsake their wicked thoughts and ways. When God knocks on their "doors," they don't open. They don't say, Come in and let's eat, I want to hear what you have to say. They will run the other way (much like a child will do to their parent when they're caught doing things they shouldn't). So judgment and chastening is the same for both the wicked and the just but it will only be more severe because there will be so much resistance coming from the wicked, but it is the exact same fire. There is a proverb (and I can't remember which one it is) that says it is an evil thing for the wicked to give up his ways. And that's the only reason why it will be harder for them; not because their sins are so much more vile than anyone else's because they really aren't. You break one law you're guilty of all.
And that makes me think of how Abraham was instructed by God to take his son Isaac to be sacrificed on the altar. What a horrifying thought. Imagine being obedient to that command when it comes to your own child. Geez, the thought of that freaks me out! It's one thing if the child is someone you don't especially like, but how obedient would you want to be to that command when you're son is completely innocent? Geez. But then God provided Abraham the sacrifice and Isaac wasn't sacrificed after all. So while Abraham was willing to be obedient to God's command, God already had in place a sacrifice--a propitiation.
We have propitiation for our sins, and not only ours but for the whole world! But "Christians" don't like the sound of that. They don't like that Christ died for the world of unbelievers too! That's an evil thought that "christians" will have to forsake and bitterly repent of one day and it will be very hard for them to give that up. And it's going to be total torture for them. Maybe just as hard for them as it will be for Hitler to forsake his ways in thinking that he is better than the people he murdered. Because after all, don't Christians believe they're better than Hitler? They don't see that except for a few minor changes they would have done the same things that Hitler did. Just because Hitler and his ilk will be saved, doesn't mean that they're "deserving" of salvation, but that if they are not saved by God, then that will make God out to be a total failure! Is that what they want? A failure for a god? Many christians, like myself, go through this evil thing where we think, Hmmm... I don't want him in my club because he doesn't think like me....
But they never stop to consider that one "day" they will think like them. We will be like-minded when God is all in all.
That doesn't mean we have to be all "huggie huggie and kissy-face" with the Hitlers of the world, because that is not what God commands.
Hello Gina,
thanks for your observations. I highlighted some parts in bold, things that helped me understand what the many will have to go through during that Day.
Sometimes I also wonder that the Elect now being perfected is one thing, we have some "time" to get used to the revelations of truth God is giving to them. Now, the many later, will have to go through some time or duration of Judgment, but nobody knows how much time this is. It might well be 1 minute, so imagine the torment all of this would be.
God bless,
Levy
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Hi again Levy,
I don't know if you got your answer yet, but I ran across this last night from Part 1 of the LOF series, in the "God IS this lake of fire!" section.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html)
"God doesn’t change. He will use the same method in the day of judging at the white throne as He uses on US. Although the intensity will get considerably more severe for those who blaspheme till the end."
Ray did not give scriptural reference, but I'm sure he knows what he's talking about..
Mike
Hello Mike,
thanks for the excerpt. Personally I'm keeping this subject in the back of my mind for further study. For now - like some computers are fond to say: "there's not enough data" :) (at least in my view, and to my knowledge, of course)
Maybe my original question is simply not the right question, which requires some more knowledge on my part.
God bless and thanks,
Levy
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Maybe my original question is simply not the right question, which requires some more knowledge on my part.
The correct question is the one that looks for God.
The answer to THAT question, is beyond words!
We're all in the same boat Levy. lol
Arc
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Maybe my original question is simply not the right question, which requires some more knowledge on my part.
The correct question is the one that looks for God.
The answer to THAT question, is beyond words!
We're all in the same boat Levy. lol
Arc
Roger that, thanks Arc :)
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haha, You know what, Levy. I think you're smart to keep this one in the back of your mind. I don't know if judgment on the many lasts 1 minute in the LOF for some (certainly Christ said that those who knew the Father's will and did not do it but began to beat the menservants,etc., would be receiving many lashes--in a mere minute? don't know), or if their judgment will last the equivalent of an entire lifetime as "an experience of evil" -- I mean how much experience can you ascertain in one minute? I guess when I think of the "day" of the Lord, then I don't think in terms of a literal "day" but in terms of an era. Paul was the worst sinner there was and yet he was hounded by a messenger of Satan to buffet him (but then again that was to keep him from getting too puffed up with the revelations he received -- as he was puffed up on the Road to Damascus, not because he was being judged or maybe it was because he was being judged, I don't know). Paul, when, confronted with a man in his church in Corinth who was committing incest, chided the Corinthians for in essence wrapping their warm loving arms around him and not judging him (by putting him out of their presence) to learn not to do those things and then after he learned he could be brought back. Would throwing a man like that out for a whole minute change his ways?
This is not to say that I'm any better than the man spoken of.
Even Jesus said:
Why do you stare from without at the speck in your brother's eye
I myself would not be too quick to throw the man committing incest out of the church -- considering the huge beam of timber in my own eye.
Maybe that's where the Corinthians were coming from, and Paul turned around and said, No! Uh-Uh! Get him out!
For a minute? I don't know. I just don't know.
If you find out the answer let me know.
Meantime, I'll just be over here trying to get this HUGE plank outta my own eye.
;)
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Kat
It is a privilege to be of the elect, there is no doubt about it, but it is not our decision to be one or not, they are 'elected' by God to be in that position. So you can and should rejoice in the hope of being an elect, but we can take no credit or boost for what we have been given.
I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen a group of just a few being prepared to serve/help/rule in the kingdom to bring in the rest to salvation.
I didn't get the impression from Ray's teaching or from the Word that it was a foregone conclusion.
I know, Marques, I already hear you saying "Go back and read Ray's writings" lol
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haha, You know what, Levy. I think you're smart to keep this one in the back of your mind. I don't know if judgment on the many lasts 1 minute in the LOF for some (certainly Christ said that those who knew the Father's will and did not do it but began to beat the menservants,etc., would be receiving many lashes--in a mere minute? don't know), or if their judgment will last the equivalent of an entire lifetime as "an experience of evil" -- I mean how much experience can you ascertain in one minute? I guess when I think of the "day" of the Lord, then I don't think in terms of a literal "day" but in terms of an era. Paul was the worst sinner there was and yet he was hounded by a messenger of Satan to buffet him (but then again that was to keep him from getting too puffed up with the revelations he received -- as he was puffed up on the Road to Damascus, not because he was being judged or maybe it was because he was being judged, I don't know). Paul, when, confronted with a man in his church in Corinth who was committing incest, chided the Corinthians for in essence wrapping their warm loving arms around him and not judging him (by putting him out of their presence) to learn not to do those things and then after he learned he could be brought back. Would throwing a man like that out for a whole minute change his ways?
This is not to say that I'm any better than the man spoken of.
Even Jesus said:
Why do you stare from without at the speck in your brother's eye
I myself would not be too quick to throw the man committing incest out of the church -- considering the huge beam of timber in my own eye.
Maybe that's where the Corinthians were coming from, and Paul turned around and said, No! Uh-Uh! Get him out!
For a minute? I don't know. I just don't know.
If you find out the answer let me know.
Meantime, I'll just be over here trying to get this HUGE plank outta my own eye.
;)
Hello Gina,
you gave enough thoughts so my rambling of 1 minute in the LOF looks ridiculous (what it really is :)
I guess I was thinking of Paul's conversion in 1 minute (the light and all). But anyway God still judged Paul for still many years after that, so it would be unfair for God to perfect people in less time. I think the time contraints we experience now such as patience requires time for perfecting it, and such things like that, still applies (obviously) during the LOF.
I just don't get why the judgment is more intense during the LOF. There's no devil there if I'm not mistaken. And it seems unfair that God will be more severe on the many during the LOF compared to the Elect today, since God is the One that did the choosing, the enabling, etc.
But like I said this is probably not too important of a question, even not covered abundantly in Ray's papers it appears, so I'm fine for now knowing that there's no respect of persons with God, and we all (Elect or not) will be salted in with FIRE anyways (Mark 9:49).
God bless!
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It does seem unfair how God makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. But who can bring a charge against God?
The main thing I'm learning to do is not find fault with God for the way He operates (shall we receive good from God and not evil?) and just shut my mouth (can you tell how incredibly difficult that is for me?)
When the elect get to their "resting" place, it is my hope they'll be too relaxed to so much as point their finger at the many (me?) or the world. I would hate to have to turn around and bite it off. haha!
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Hey Levy,
Simple answer to a valid question.
If the lake of fire is what we are experiencing now, in this life and if it is to be very similar for those who were not called, then the one thing I can imagine that would make it very tough on many would be a stubborn attitude and not being willing to accept correction without a fight, without resistance to the admonition of God.
Imagine a person who was very successful and took credit for their success due to all the hard work they put into it, to then be told that it was all vanity, all for nothing in the eyes of God. All their good works were as "filthy rags" to God.
Now that would BURN a persons view of themselves.
So my point is that it will be as tough as the individual makes it on themselves when they are forced to look in the mirror of their past life.
Please comment, Indiana bob
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Hey Levy,
Simple answer to a valid question.
If the lake of fire is what we are experiencing now, in this life and if it is to be very similar for those who were not called, then the one thing I can imagine that would make it very tough on many would be a stubborn attitude and not being willing to accept correction without a fight, without resistance to the admonition of God.
Imagine a person who was very successful and took credit for their success due to all the hard work they put into it, to then be told that it was all vanity, all for nothing in the eyes of God. All their good works were as "filthy rags" to God.
Now that would BURN a persons view of themselves.
So my point is that it will be as tough as the individual makes it on themselves when they are forced to look in the mirror of their past life.
Please comment, Indiana bob
Hello my friend,
I see your point, regarding the many being of a stubborn attitude during their lake of fire. But don't we have the same now...
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in {your} mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled {in...: or, by your mind in}" Colossians 1:21
...prior to God operating in us the opening of our understanding with His Spirit?
It'll be certainly though for the many during their lake of fire, at least for many christians, because they thought they would be saved by then. They will be in "shock". But this hardship we are experiencing now too, we are dying to our false religion of carnal religious works and coming into the light of our Lord's rest where the work is His not ours.
Just ramblings...
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When the elect get to their "resting" place, it is my hope they'll be too relaxed to so much as point their finger at the many (me?) or the world. I would hate to have to turn around and bite it off. haha!
That's how I see the Lord's rest too. The Elect become so relaxed, so truly knowing their God (God is love, for real) that they start loving people more, specially the "wicked" we used (or at least I used) to not love so much.
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Well that was kind of a joke, Levy.
God consigns us all up to disobedience (you break one law you're guilty of all) only that He may have m-e-r-c-y on all. That's the only reason He consigns people up to disobedience.
God chooses the WEAK things of the world to confound the wise.
I look at myself and I see God's blessings and mercy all through my life. Every day, I am at work I try to remember to pray "God please be merciful to me. I need this job and I don't want to be dependent on anyone. Please help with me with my job. I'm not that smart and you know it." I'm telling you He has been so merciful to me and my children. If a person isn't careful, they tend to get comfortable in their lives and forget about those less fortunate or look down their noses at them, and God said, Mmmm -- Not good -- you do that and you'll be cut off. I grafted you in and I can un-graft you, just like that so you better keep a good assessment of yourself in the back of your mind at all times.
God says we need to work out our salvation with fear (awe) and trembling. There's hardly a day that goes by that I'm not fearful of something. Am I gonna have to go to the doctor and find out I have cancer, or this or that. Am I gonna lose one of my children. Am I gonna do something that causes me to wind up in jail? So my main prayer is always, like the tax collector, God, please be merciful to me, a sinner!
I have been the Pharisee looking down their nose at the tax collector too. And I swear God has his hand on me. It's not long before God says, you better watch your step girl!
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I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen
It does digress or partly digresses from the main subject, and thus perhaps deserves its own thread, although the subject is related, but is there any answers to JohnChris’s question?
What is the point of discussing how much harder or easier it is/it is going to be for the elect/the many if one has not ascertained what category one fits into? Is it not otherwise hypothetical nonsense and a simple tickling of our intellect and a discussion of vanity?
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I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen
It does digress or partly digresses from the main subject, and thus perhaps deserves its own thread, although the subject is related, but is there any answers to JohnChris’s question?
I believe it would be a good idea to start another thread on this specific topic.
What is the point of discussing how much harder or easier it is/it is going to be for the elect/the many if one has not ascertained what category one fits into? Is it not otherwise hypothetical nonsense and a simple tickling of our intellect and a discussion of vanity?
Yeah, it may be vanity.
My original personal question came up during a conversation I had with a friend in trying to show him the truth, and in the middle of it I thought of saying that "it's going to be harder later", but I wasn't 100% sure this is true, that's why I created this thread here.
Like I said above Ray didn't cover this subject and we know God is always love and fair, so maybe for now we can "rest" of this discussion :)
God bless you my brother
Levy
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Kat It is a privilege to be of the elect, there is no doubt about it, but it is not our decision to be one or not, they are 'elected' by God to be in that position. So you can and should rejoice in the hope of being an elect, but we can take no credit or boost for what we have been given.
I just want to ask. Does the fact that we've been called mean that we're automatically part of the elect. And here I am specifically referring to the few that have been chosen
a group of just a few being prepared to serve/help/rule in the kingdom to bring in the rest to salvation.
I didn't get the impression from Ray's teaching or from the Word that it was a foregone conclusion.
I know, Marques, I already hear you saying "Go back and read Ray's writings" lol
Sorry I didn't answer sooner, I've been away from home for a few days. What I was referring to is the "elect" in general, not someone in particular. Of course no one can know for certain if they are an elect or not (at least maybe not until the very end, like Paul seemed to know (2Tim 4:7)). But God does know who are His from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). So I believe the elect are being groomed all their lives, though they are unaware of it for most of their life and only have the hope when God is working through them. But whoever they are, they are guaranteed to be in the kingdom, even if they don't know for sure, because none of the elect will be lost.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#saved -----------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Margaret:
"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question! Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question? If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.
Here is what we do read regarding salvation:
"might save" "to save" "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.
And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.
Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.
If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.
This verse says it all:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13).
If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?" See the contradiction?
Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?
Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives? I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.
God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).
God be with you,
Ray
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Thanks Levy for your explanation as to why you created this thread.
I see your point in that we need to be accurate when discussing things with others, and I now understand why the question came up.
I too had the feeling/thought/idea that it was better to "do it now", rather than "do it later" (or have it done later).
Oatmeal
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Friend Kat,
Question please.
In the quote below did you mean to say exactly as the sentence indicates?
Your quote: "God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions". Here is just one:
Bob asks: shouldn't that be stated as follows?
"God HAS, however, left us with assurances THAT we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions"
Thanks for any clarification,
Sincerely, Indiana bob
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Hi Bob, that was a phrase from an email of Ray's that your question was about. But as I look at that more closely I think you are right about that having been a mistake that has slipped by.
mercy, peace and love
Kat