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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: dave on August 20, 2011, 06:20:53 PM
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I am not trying to be contentious, just wondering. I have believe this passage and have found great comfort it. But if its not there how do we understand?
Professor C. Tischendorf's list of spurious passages not in the Bible, one is Luke 23:34-- Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do Luke 24:42-- and of an honeycomb
How is it that Ray answered an email as such "This is Truth:
"FATHER ... FORGIVE THEM ... for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:33-34).
And this according to your explanation this is also truth:
God honored Christ’s prayer by forgiving those who did, literally, crucify Him, before they ever repented or accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour. (This is a very logical explanation.)" Ray
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Here is what Ray said about this verses after reviewing Tischendorf's list at the 07 conference.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.msg49001.html --------
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father forgive them; for they know not what they do
This one really threw me. It’s not in the Sinaiticus or the Vaticanus, so is it Scripture or isn’t it? I don’t know. It’s not in the two oldest ones, so maybe it’s not.
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There are a few things that Ray has somewhat changes his view on over the progress of his studies. If you notice the dates on his articles or transcripts, I would consider his current view to be in the latest teachings.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I found that this translation and several others a little later omit that verse.
1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. It was a translation out of the Vulgate.
Its just that the verse was such an act of love and compassion its hard to accept it not being there.
Did some translator just "feel" like putting in there? I guess it would be all speculation.
Thanks Kat
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I found that this translation and several others a little later omit that verse.
1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books. It was a translation out of the Vulgate.
Its just that the verse was such an act of love and compassion its hard to accept it not being there.
Did some translator just "feel" like putting in there? I guess it would be all speculation.
Thanks Kat
Stephen spoke the same when he was stoned:
Acts 7:57-60 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
That's pretty much word for word with Luke 23:34. Whether the passage in the Luke is valid, I think the teaching is true and should be practiced anyway.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I see that, and that helps. :)
Thanks it was just a loss to know that "maybe" Jesus had not said the words. :)
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Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
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Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
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"Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing."
I dont believe we have to guess, he must have been there, it was before Stephen's stoning.
That is a very good reading of all the words. :)
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Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
I agree Dave. They knew who He was (just like the Pharisees of our day know who He is), but they did not fully comprehend what they were doing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;
1Co 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins. No excuses, no one is innocent.
G.Driggs
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Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
I agree Dave. They knew who He was (just like the Pharisees of our day know who He is), but they did not fully comprehend what they were doing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;
1Co 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins. No excuses, no one is innocent.
G.Driggs
"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
We humans have an exceedingly weak heart. We all have sinned, willingly. We are not innocent. There is no good in us. We cannot even take the next breath when God has decided we have had our last breath. We are dust.
We did not have the power to kill our Creator, the Son of God. God the Father is responsible for that just like He is responsible for everything that has ever been.
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That is TRUTH, John. That is TRUTH!! Even now it God working His will in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Php 2:13
Sometimes I wonder why we will even be rewarded. Its All HIM. I think we get rewarded if we keep smiling through it and don't grumble...to much.
Stan
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Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
I agree Dave. They knew who He was (just like the Pharisees of our day know who He is), but they did not fully comprehend what they were doing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;
1Co 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins. No excuses, no one is innocent.
G.Driggs
"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
We humans have an exceedingly weak heart. We all have sinned, willingly. We are not innocent. There is no good in us. We cannot even take the next breath when God has decided we have had our last breath. We are dust.
We did not have the power to kill our Creator, the Son of God. God the Father is responsible for that just like He is responsible for everything that has ever been.
I do not know anywhere in Scriptures where it says God killed His Son, but it does say Jesus volunteered.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Because of our sins.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Is it just me or does this sound like EVERYBODY?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
If you have a problem it's not with me, it's with the Word of God. I agree God is responsible, but you seem to quite often deny the world is accountable. God being responsible does not get the world off the hook. Absolute truths and relative truths CAN coexist, they are both truths.
G.Driggs
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Here is one i always thought might be a possible witness to that verse in Luke.
Act 3:17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.
G.Driggs
Ray uses this verse to explain that they (at least the 'rulers') were not completely acting in ignorance.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Paul himself was a Pharisee before and is likely included in Nicodemus' "...WE KNOW...", I'm guessing.
Of course their 'knowledge' was at best incomplete--Jesus was far more than a teacher come from God--but were they 'innocent'?
Paul 'stood by' the stoning of Stephen (Acts 22:20) thinking he was doing the RIGHT thing. He also said he was 'ignorant' during the time he was persecuting the church, but I don't think he thought of himself as innocent.
Just some loose threads of thought.
I agree Dave. They knew who He was (just like the Pharisees of our day know who He is), but they did not fully comprehend what they were doing.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, which God has hidden, predetermining it before the world for our glory;
1Co 2:8 which none of the rulers of this world knew (for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins. No excuses, no one is innocent.
G.Driggs
"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
We humans have an exceedingly weak heart. We all have sinned, willingly. We are not innocent. There is no good in us. We cannot even take the next breath when God has decided we have had our last breath. We are dust.
We did not have the power to kill our Creator, the Son of God. God the Father is responsible for that just like He is responsible for everything that has ever been.
I do not know anywhere in Scriptures where it says God killed His Son, but it does say Jesus volunteered.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Because of our sins.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Is it just me or does this sound like EVERYBODY?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
If you have a problem it's not with me, it's with the Word of God. I agree God is responsible, but you seem to quite often deny the world is accountable. God being responsible does not get the world off the hook. Absolute truths and relative truths CAN coexist, they are both truths.
G.Driggs
My friend, I do not have a problem with you. Nor with the Word of God. I do believe that mankind will be held accountable for our actions. I do not believe that the world is on any permanent "hook". Jesus is our Savior. He lets everyone off the "hook" after a period of judgment. Everyone gets saved.
As to the Father taking Jesus' life. Do you not realize that the Scriptures you quoted above, Acts 4:26-28, says that very thing? It was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus. The same Hand and Counsel that determines what happens to us. No one can take anything out of His Hands.
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God being responsible does not get the world off the hook. Absolute truths and relative truths CAN coexist, they are both truths.
Wow I wished I had said that ;D You have said succintly what I have tried to say before in probably too many words.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Does this scripture at the minimum, imply that we all did crucify the Son of God? Cause it seems to be saying that is possible to crucify the Son of God afresh; doesn't "crucify to themselves afresh" imply that God will not tolerate it being done by us again? Just putting it out there. here, of course, we are speaking in the relative, not the absolute. God will not allow Christ to be put to open shame, and be crucified afresh, even metaphorically... I think this is a STRONG admonition for holiness and reverence and gratefulness and thankfulness for the immense work done at that terrible cross, that we all did corporately, and we will all reap the everlasting benefits from. Thank God for the cross.
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"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." G Driggs
I do not agree with that statement. John from Kentucky
George is right John. We have all been guilty of crucifying Jesus.You, me, and every human being that has ever lived.The Father by design caused to happen the death of our Lord but that does not mean that we all individually did not have part in it.
Just who do you think are the kings of the earth and the rulers gathered against the Lord? If we are to live by every word then that would leave no one out. If you,me,or anyone[all] cannot see that we too are as guilty within our hearts and minds of crucifying Jesus,because of our very own carnal ways of living, then, our understanding of things Spiritual are yet in its infancy.
According to Scripture there are only two groups of mankind on the entire earth. These two groups would be the gentiles,and the people of Israel.It then would be by a necessity of default that all peoples of all times would have to fall into either group. According to Acts 4:26-27, if we look with Spiritual eyes, we can come to see that we as humans are all guilty of murdering Christ by going against His Truths.
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord,and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
By way of partaking into the babylonian system of things we surely kill our Lord by not living His very words of Spirit and Truth. Not only was the apostle Paul a chief of sinners but all of us fall into that condition if we do not come to see that by sinning against the Word of God makes us just as guilty of crucifying Jesus[the Truth and the Way] as the people that were there in the flesh.
Jesus died in order to save sinners of whom I see, with Spiritual eyes, to be all people of all times that go against His very words.If that is not killing Him, then I do not what is. All people are guilty of Jesus' death or we would have no need for a Savior.When we don't see ourselves as chief of sinners within our hearts and minds,just as Paul did,we then fall short,miss the mark,of the High calling,to the Glory of God.
1Ti 1:15 Faithful, the saying! and, of all acceptance, worthy,—that, Christ Jesus, came into the world, sinners, to save: of whom, the chief, am, I;—
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
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I surely see your point, but I took John to mean that this is Gods plan and He is doing it according to how He wants.
Rom 8:20 Meanwhile, creation is confused, but not because it wants to be confused. God made it this way in the hope
Rom 8:21 that creation would be set free from decay and would share in the glorious freedom of his children.(CEV)
When you look at the BIG Picture, All really is of God. That's what I perceived John to mean.
Loven,
Stan
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"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." G Driggs
I do not agree with that statement. John from Kentucky
George is right John. We have all been guilty of crucifying Jesus.You, me, and every human being that has ever lived.The Father by design caused to happen the death of our Lord but that does not mean that we all individually did not have part in it.
Just who do you think are the kings of the earth and the rulers gathered against the Lord? If we are to live by every word then that would leave no one out. If you,me,or anyone[all] cannot see that we too are as guilty within our hearts and minds of crucifying Jesus,because of our very own carnal ways of living, then, our understanding of things Spiritual are yet in its infancy.
According to Scripture there are only two groups of mankind on the entire earth. These two groups would be the gentiles,and the people of Israel.It then would be by a necessity of default that all peoples of all times would have to fall into either group. According to Acts 4:26-27, if we look with Spiritual eyes, we can come to see that we as humans are all guilty of murdering Christ by going against His Truths.
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord,and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
By way of partaking into the babylonian system of things we surely kill our Lord by not living His very words of Spirit and Truth. Not only was the apostle Paul a chief of sinners but all of us fall into that condition if we do not come to see that by sinning against the Word of God makes us just as guilty of crucifying Jesus[the Truth and the Way] as the people that were there in the flesh.
Jesus died in order to save sinners of whom I see, with Spiritual eyes, to be all people of all times that go against His very words.If that is not killing Him, then I do not what is. All people are guilty of Jesus' death or we would have no need for a Savior.When we don't see ourselves as chief of sinners within our hearts and minds,just as Paul did,we then fall short,miss the mark,of the High calling,to the Glory of God.
1Ti 1:15 Faithful, the saying! and, of all acceptance, worthy,—that, Christ Jesus, came into the world, sinners, to save: of whom, the chief, am, I;—
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
Babylonian church talk, Mark, Babylonian church talk.
The Beast within would just love to think it could kill the Son of God by its free will actions.
You left off Acts 4:28. Why did you do that? It states that it was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus.
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You left off Acts 4:28. Why did you do that? It states that it was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus.
John,read all my words. I never stated that the Father was not responsible for Christ's death.
The Father by design caused to happen the death of our Lord... Mark
So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?
When you live outside the Word of God would you not say that would be the same as killing him,Spiritualy speaking?
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Well, well, well. Maybe old Tischendorf and the Sinaiticus manuscript were right after all? Maybe Luke 23:34 is spurious. Why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive the evil men who killed Him when Jesus knew it was the Father behind it all?
In John 19:11, Jesus told Pilate, "You could have no power at all against me unless it had been given you from above..."
2nd Scripture, Acts 4:28, speaking about the Father in reference to those He used to kill Jesus, "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (NASB)
Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
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Now thats good! :)
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My friend, I do not have a problem with you. Nor with the Word of God. I do believe that mankind will be held accountable for our actions. I do not believe that the world is on any permanent "hook". Jesus is our Savior. He lets everyone off the "hook" after a period of judgment. Everyone gets saved.
As to the Father taking Jesus' life. Do you not realize that the Scriptures you quoted above, Acts 4:26-28, says that very thing? It was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus. The same Hand and Counsel that determines what happens to us. No one can take anything out of His Hands.
Did you not notice I agreed with you that God was responsible? My point was that we are accountable.
Please do not put words like "permanent hook" in my mouth, I never said that. Also please stop lumping me (and Ray) in with "Christian ministers and priests". This is not the first time you have said that to me after repeating what I have learned here.
Everything I have said to you I learned from Ray. I believe them because the grace of God caused me to study them, test the spirits and found them to be true.
Give me a little credit, your not the only one who believes God is sovereign. You just don't seem to understand exactly how He exercises His sovereignty. Quite often He does it through putting us in circumstances where He knows we will do what we naturally and voluntarily want to do. That is how (to me) all is of God, and that is how we are accountable, because we wanted to do it. All we needed was the opportunity, which is the circumstances God put us in.
This has been very hard for me to wrap my head around. I've often asked God the same question the Romans asked the apostle Paul.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will [Greek:intention]?
I did not want to be accountable after realizing God is the cause of all the evil I've experienced. I was very mad and still get mad at Him sometimes. One of the only things that keeps me going is the belief God does all that He does for my ultimate good, even if it hurts like hell.
Well, well, well. Maybe old Tischendorf and the Sinaiticus manuscript were right after all? Maybe Luke 23:34 is spurious. Why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive the evil men who killed Him when Jesus knew it was the Father behind it all?
How convenient of you to suddenly change your beliefs. You dont need no man to teach you, study for yourself and be convinced in your own mind.
I'm done here. Anything else you wanna say to me send me a pm.
Peace "bro"
G.Driggs
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My friend, I do not have a problem with you. Nor with the Word of God. I do believe that mankind will be held accountable for our actions. I do not believe that the world is on any permanent "hook". Jesus is our Savior. He lets everyone off the "hook" after a period of judgment. Everyone gets saved.
As to the Father taking Jesus' life. Do you not realize that the Scriptures you quoted above, Acts 4:26-28, says that very thing? It was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus. The same Hand and Counsel that determines what happens to us. No one can take anything out of His Hands.
Did you not notice I agreed with you that God was responsible? My point was that we are accountable.
Please do not put words like "permanent hook" in my mouth, I never said that. Also please stop lumping me (and Ray) in with "Christian ministers and priests". This is not the first time you have said that to me after repeating what I have learned here.
Everything I have said to you I learned from Ray. I believe them because the grace of God caused me to study them, test the spirits and found them to be true.
Give me a little credit, your not the only one who believes God is sovereign. You just don't seem to understand exactly how He exercises His sovereignty. Quite often He does it through putting us in circumstances where He knows we will do what we naturally and voluntarily want to do. That is how (to me) all is of God, and that is how we are accountable, because we wanted to do it. All we needed was the opportunity, which is the circumstances God put us in.
This has been very hard for me to wrap my head around. I've often asked God the same question the Romans asked the apostle Paul.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will [Greek:intention]?
I did not want to be accountable after realizing God is the cause of all the evil I've experienced. I was very mad and still get mad at Him sometimes. One of the only things that keeps me going is the belief God does all that He does for my ultimate good, even if it hurts like hell.
Well, well, well. Maybe old Tischendorf and the Sinaiticus manuscript were right after all? Maybe Luke 23:34 is spurious. Why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive the evil men who killed Him when Jesus knew it was the Father behind it all?
How convenient of you to suddenly change your beliefs. You dont need no man to teach you, study for yourself and be convinced in your own mind.
I'm done here. Anything else you wanna say to me send me a pm.
Peace "bro"
G.Driggs
Sorry I offended you. I'm like a kidney stone. Sometimes I'm hard to pass.
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John, you seem to think that you have no part in the outcome of how God is working through you. Is God repenting for you of your sins or do you have some type of accountability in what choices you make? All of us here know that the Father is in total control of His creation[no free will],but does that also mean that you have no part in His plan and purpose concerning your own life?
One can easily fall back and rest on one's laurels and just say "what the heck,God is responsible for everything and what I do has no matter in the situation" or we can be pro-active in our own lives and seek Spiritual things on a Spiritual level,getting beyond the things of the flesh. Just because the Father predestined what the outcome of His creation is does not take away anything of what your part is.
By not answering my questions...
So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?
and
When you live outside the Word of God would you not say that would be the same as killing him,Spiritualy speaking?
your spirit of denial is apparent and that is totally ok. God has you at this moment in time exactly where you need to be and its all right to be in that condition. All really is of God.
If we do not see every word of Scripture to be seen,heard, and lived with Spiritual eyes [within ourselves],for our own admonition, then judgement within has not yet begun.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Mat 26:56 But all this has taken place in order that the writings of the Prophets may be fulfilled." At this point the disciples all left Him and fled.
Mar 14:50 Then all the disciples abandoned Him and ran away.
Peace...Mark
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John, you seem to think that you have no part in the outcome of how God is working through you. Is God repenting for you of your sins or do you have some type of accountability in what choices you make? All of us here know that the Father is in total control of His creation[no free will],but does that also mean that you have no part in His plan and purpose concerning your own life?
One can easily fall back and rest on one's laurels and just say "what the heck,God is responsible for everything and what I do has no matter in the situation" or we can be pro-active in our own lives and seek Spiritual things on a Spiritual level,getting beyond the things of the flesh. Just because the Father predestined what the outcome of His creation is does not take away anything of what your part is.
By not answering my questions...
So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?
and
When you live outside the Word of God would you not say that would be the same as killing him,Spiritualy speaking?
your spirit of denial is apparent and that is totally ok. God has you at this moment in time exactly where you need to be and its all right to be in that condition. All really is of God.
If we do not see every word of Scripture to be seen,heard, and lived with Spiritual eyes [within ourselves],for our own admonition, then judgement within has not yet begun.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Mat 26:56 But all this has taken place in order that the writings of the Prophets may be fulfilled." At this point the disciples all left Him and fled.
Mar 14:50 Then all the disciples abandoned Him and ran away.
Peace...Mark
Spare me the sermon and judgment. I could go to any church in my city tonight and get the same christian nonsense.
I didn't answer your questions because I don't want to argue. I get bored easily.
But you need to hear and understand something. The Father is totally sovereign in everything. Everything! Speaking for myself, there is absolutely no good in me whatsoever. Everything I now am, everything I will be, it all comes from the Father. All. Both the desire and will to do good, and any good actions that I do, it is all from the Spirit of the Father and Jesus (same spirit) within me. I can of my own self do nothing. My fingers typing on this keyboard is from God as is the next second of my life, if He so decides.
I now know that all who teach and believe what I just said will suffer persecution and resentment. Why would that be? Because the Beast within doesn't want to die. Free will keeps it alive. Many here will claim they believe in the sovereignty of God, but deep down, deep down, they cling to the false idea that they can do good. That they are in control. That God must reward them for the "good" that they do. It keeps the Beast within them alive.
If what I just said causes a twinge within you or resentment, then understand it is not from me. I am insignificant and of no importance. Who am I? Look within yourself and ask the Spirit of God to judge your heart.
Now my sermon is over. I guess we're even. ;D ;D ;D
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Many here will claim they believe in the sovereignty of God, but deep down, deep down, they cling to the false idea that they can do good. That they are in control. That God must reward them for the "good" that they do. It keeps the Beast within them alive.
Thats quite a judgement to make. Do you really know for sure that that judgement is true?
Look within yourself and ask the Spirit of God to judge your heart.
can you explain how you judge your heart, if you believe as you do? If every thought, action, and deed, that you commit, are ALL the direct act of the Father, then how do you judge your thoughts actions and heart? Are you not merely just judging what God is doing? Are you really judging yourself?
Is it ONLY just about coming to the realization that you yourself can do nothing? Is that the whole crux of it all? Is the entire point of this that whatever you think, do, and feel, if we come to the realization that God is actually the ONE DOING it all, that is REALLY the ONLY iimportant point? So if I commit a sin, as long as I realize that I am helpless before what God has decided that I would be doing at that time, as long as I realize that, that is the only spiritual point that matters? Is that what you are saying?
And I really was waiting for your answer concerning So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?
That is a HUGE question. it is not worth a demeaning dodge like, I didn't answer your questions because I don't want to argue. I get bored easily
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Because the Beast within doesn't want to die. Free will keeps it alive.
So, John, is your beast dead? is your only reason for believing that your beast is dead, is that really really believe you simply are 100% along for the ride, and now that you are, because you are willing to attribute 100% of every one of your thoughts and actions to God the Father directly, so NOW you claim your beast is dead? Just believing that (extreme IMHO) kills the beast? Based on that alone? Is that what the doctrine of No free will really means to you?
Now the following questions are rhetorical to everyone. What about crucifying your flesh? Have you crucified your flesh of its carnal passions and desires? To me, a CLEAN thought life and CLEAN heart and godly and Christ honoring actions would be more an indicator that your beast is dead. If I am doing Christs works, and thinking Christs thoughts, then I believe my beast is dead. Would God really say that your beast is dead if your heart is full of lust, adulteries, lies, coveting, and all the other millions of sins? Are you really are you are putting all others before yourself, even loving your enemies, then I would say your beast is dead. Just because you are at peace in your own soul because you believe that all your actions and thoughts are completely the direct acts of God, have always been the acts of the Father, and always will be, does NOT mean you beast is dead. So what if you believe that. You could be a terrible person and be completely content in all your terrible actions because God is the one doing them, not you. We will wait for the judgement of Christ to reveal the secrets of mens hearts. We will see if God values your "beast killing" PREEMINENT OVER ARCHING belief that everyone of your impulses, thoughts, actions, and desires are the direct act of God or if God values your acts of Love towards your fellow man, your obedience to Christ, your holiness of putting away the carnal nature and serving others. And we will see whiuch weighs more on the scales, what you believe is the beast killing belief and LOVE, LOVING all people and doing all you can in LOVE with Christ.
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Amen! :)
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Because the Beast within doesn't want to die. Free will keeps it alive.
So, John, is your beast dead? is your only reason for believing that your beast is dead, is that really really believe you simply are 100% along for the ride, and now that you are, because you are willing to attribute 100% of every one of your thoughts and actions to God the Father directly, so NOW you claim your beast is dead? Just believing that (extreme IMHO) kills the beast? Based on that alone? Is that what the doctrine of No free will really means to you?
Now the following questions are rhetorical to everyone. What about crucifying your flesh? Have you crucified your flesh of its carnal passions and desires? To me, a CLEAN thought life and CLEAN heart and godly and Christ honoring actions would be more an indicator that your beast is dead. If I am doing Christs works, and thinking Christs thoughts, then I believe my beast is dead. Would God really say that your beast is dead if your heart is full of lust, adulteries, lies, coveting, and all the other millions of sins? Are you really are you are putting all others before yourself, even loving your enemies, then I would say your beast is dead. Just because you are at peace in your own soul because you believe that all your actions and thoughts are completely the direct acts of God, have always been the acts of the Father, and always will be, does NOT mean you beast is dead. So what if you believe that. You could be a terrible person and be completely content in all your terrible actions because God is the one doing them, not you. We will wait for the judgement of Christ to reveal the secrets of mens hearts. We will see if God values your "beast killing" PREEMINENT OVER ARCHING belief that everyone of your impulses, thoughts, actions, and desires are the direct act of God or if God values your acts of Love towards your fellow man, your obedience to Christ, your holiness of putting away the carnal nature and serving others. And we will see whiuch weighs more on the scales, what you believe is the beast killing belief and LOVE, LOVING all people and doing all you can in LOVE with Christ.
My, my, what a reaction to the truth of the total sovereignty of God. The Spirit of God does prick your heart. Feels like fire, doesn't it?
I'll just make one comment on the last paragraph above. See how many times you use the personal pronouns---you, your, I, we. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. It is not about mankind, what we do. It is all about God and what He does.
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God bless you John. I am very happy in my faith and in the love in my heart. I wish you the best andmay God give to you abundantly. Doug
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God bless you John. I am very happy in my faith and in the love in my heart. I wish you the best andmay God give to you abundantly. Doug
Well Doug, I wish you the same. Those of us who believe in the universal salvation of all can't help but have love and best wishes for everyone. John
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I'd kinda like to say something here. Before I fell over Bible Truths and Ray Smith on the internet, I didn't realize that after 40 years of wandering around blind, couldn't see my hand in front of my face, and that I never knew my state of carnality. At this moment I don't know how much weaker the beast that is within me is. I believe that all men, except Christ, are born with this character flaw and will die with it. How strong this hatred within me or how much it has been weakened is totally up to God. Even the Elect, IMO, will still have some more purging, howbeit a lot less that most of humanity. I have tried many many times to improve my mind, of my own will, but I never fail to get to first base. The right circumstances arise and there It is, seems just as strong as ever. Maybe only for a few minutes or even seconds, but I look back and say damn, and don't think that I have been bettered by very much from what I was years ago. Sad but true. Bluzman
Ps. I do not believe in Free Will but that doesn't stop me from trying it out, and I can only see this when I am able to look back.
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hi John... the question and your post in the question about square circles give my an idea :) OK I am a traveler. I start at the north pole and I proceed in a direct line, due south, down a line of longitude, to the equator. Then I take a right angle turn, a 90 degree turn, due west. I go 1/4 of the circumference of the earth, on the equator. I stop. The I take a 90 degree turn, due north, up a line of longitude, and a end up back at the north pole, but at 90 degrees, a right angle, from where I started.
What does this have to do with our discussion, and the square circle question? Well from my perspective, as the traveller, I have made (3) 90 degree turns, or 270 degrees, in my complete journey to the north pole and back. But form another perspective, I simply did a triangle! Triangles have only 180 degrees! But this particular triangle, being circumscribed on the earth, actually from my point of view, as the traveller, contained 270 degrees!
On can argue and argue and would be correct, that triangles only contain 180 degrees. Kind of like your position on Gods Sovereignity. But from my perspective, as the traveller, I did 270 degrees on my journey! So who is right? depends. Are we talking theory or the real life experience. Myself, growing in Christ demands that I look at life from the point of view of the traveller. Of course I have great comfort that God is arranging and steering and placing all things according to His will. And without HIM I can do nothing. But in the very real road that I am travelling, God leads me to climb mountains or cross valleys sometimes, and do things that I cannot do. Sometimes God takes us places when all the theory is gone and we need to weep before Him and beg His help, even if we KNOW He is not going to one thing different than He already decided, and He is even motivating my petitions themselves. So for me, my journey has 270 degrees. Someone else can argue the book knowledge that triangles have 180 degrees. But for me, to live in the real world, I must always give my best for God. I have a different temperment than you. Your outlook has much to merit it. So does mine. I will never see eye to eye with your perspective in this life, and I doubt you will mine. But like that square circle question, and because I love science and relativity and the like, I wanted to just illustrate how two people can have two diiferent perspectives and both be right, though I do not feel your perspective is as correct in reach as you think it is, and likewise, I am sure my perspective has glaring errors too.
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Hi Bluzman. Keep the faith. Don't become discouraged. Sometimes realizing the extent of our weakness is vital before God begins to rescue us. But to realize the extent of your weakness, your need to try and fail. We all can relate to what you are saying. Yet I can assure that God has done great changes in me, sometimes after a long desert time. But thirst is an absolute prerequiste to His work. ( I am not going to get into yes I know the thirst comes from God even if that is true, why talk about that, we don't know when He will move, this is all about seeking Him) Please keep your thirst for God and the things of God. Pursue righteousness. Beg God to change you. Plead with Him to change you. I promise, He will. Doug
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... Are we talking theory or the real life experience?
... Please keep your thirst for God and the things of God. Pursue righteousness. Beg God to change you. Plead with Him to change you.
the bolded statements above are what stuck out for me. that was the "sermon" (lesson) for my heart.
claudia
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I didn't answer your questions because I don't want to argue. I get bored easily.
I thought my questions were fair questions concerning where the context of the conversation was heading. Seeing that this is a forum I thought maybe you would want to respond. My intentions were not to argue with you or bore you. Sometimes it is better to eat at home.
Peace to you John...
1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1Co 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
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Hi Bluzman. Keep the faith. Don't become discouraged. Sometimes realizing the extent of our weakness is vital before God begins to rescue us. But to realize the extent of your weakness, your need to try and fail. We all can relate to what you are saying. Yet I can assure that God has done great changes in me, sometimes after a long desert time. But thirst is an absolute prerequiste to His work. ( I am not going to get into yes I know the thirst comes from God even if that is true, why talk about that, we don't know when He will move, this is all about seeking Him)
Please keep your thirst for God and the things of God. Pursue righteousness. Beg God to change you. Plead with Him to change you. I promise, He will. Doug
(I am not going to get into yes I know the thirst comes from God even if that is true, why talk about that, we don't know when He will move, this is all about seeking Him)
"IF"...........?
So one can keep a thirst for God even when/if God doesn't want them to thirst, or let's say, when one is caused to fall away from the first love, whenever/if that may be, we can retain our thirst for God. That's what happened with the prodigal son?
?
I'm just trying to reconcile this with what I've read. No wonder I stay in a perpetual state of confusion.
gk
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"IF"...........?
So one can keep a thirst for God even when/if God doesn't want them to thirst, or let's say, when one is caused to fall away from the first love, whenever/if that may be, we can retain our thirst for God. That's what happened with the prodigal son?
?
I'm just trying to reconcile this with what I've read. No wonder I stay in a perpetual state of confusion.
gk
Hi GK,
In answer to your question bolded above, the answer is no. According to the Scriptures:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
1Ki 8:57 The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:
1Ki 8:58 That HE may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers. (emphasis mine)
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I [God] give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Therefore, unless God is the one moving in one's heart to will and do and desire to do good, they will not. One cannot thwart God's sovereignty because it is God who puts the desire in one's heart in the first place.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
Once God removes the desire from a person's heart to do good and follow after Him, man will go back to what he does voluntarily - which is sin. Man cannot beg God to restore that desire unless it is GOD who is causing man to do so. To imply that man could do such a thing without the influence of God is to support and believe in free will.
I hope this helps.
In Him,
John
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Well, that's good to know.
For a milli-fraction-of-a-split-nano-second I thought maybe I would put up for auction to you fine folks all my bindings of Rays teachings of scripture.
Thank you JohnMichael------good grasshopper.
gk
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No, Gary!! Hang onto the binders, and let what people say on the forum float softly. Salt EVERYTHING.
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This thread makes my head hurt :D
I forgot how hard it was to wrap my mind around the whole "free" will thing at first which is where,I think, this thread went to basically.
All I can say is,for me anyway, once you get there it's pretty peaceful :)
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Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
IF YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE TOTAL SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD CAUSES YOU TO PUT LESS AND LESS IMPORTANCE ON SCRIPTURES LIKE THESE ABOVE, EVEN SECRETLY, DEEP IN YOUR HEART, AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING CAN CAUSE YOU TO NOT ATTEMPT TO OBEY THEM OR ONLY TRY HALF HEARTEDLY BECAUSE THEY SOUND LIKE ‘FREE WILL’ TO YOU, THEN YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED.
I see no qualifier IN ANY SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER that we need to wait till we are personally convinced God is motivating us. If you are not motivated, then REPENT your heart is wrong and you better seek God just like those scriptures tell you to do, and just like those scriptures attest, God will reward those who earnestly seek Him. Not ONE of us is PRIVY to the workings of God behind the scenes. So stop acting like you are, just because you see through a glass darkly and now think you are so wise; and can see some of His workings; start obeying all those scriptures!
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Doug,
(1) Show me two Scriptures that say that Man can follow any of His commandments WITHOUT the influence of God.
(2) Show me two Scriptures that say that Man can repent WITHOUT the influence of God.
Otherwise, a personal agenda is being pushed over Scriptural Truth. No one is saying that man has nothing to do. No one is saying that man can just sit back, sipping his iced Tea, and watch God do all the work. No one is saying that man has no part to play.
There is a time and a place for everything. There is a time to be zealous and a time to be meek. There is a time to preach and a time to be taught. God decides; not man.
I'm not saying any of this out of condemnation - only the desire to help.
In Him,
John
(1) Man cannot follow God's commandments without God
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jer 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
(2) Man cannot repent without God
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
Job 33:29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
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Thank you JohnMichael for your last post. You have said what I was trying to get across in my earlier post, and I wasn't clear with my words or thoughts. I am going through, I believe, and not for the first time either, a feeling of abandonment by God.
It is a very heartbreaking experience when family, friends or coworkers ostracize a person, but very devastating when applied to Higher Spiritual things. Perhaps my thinking is totally wrong and this is my own delusion. I hope so.
I do care and think about all of you.
May God be with you, Bluzsman
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Hi John
Thank you for saying this No one is saying that man has nothing to do. No one is saying that man can just sit back, sipping his iced Tea, and watch God do all the work. No one is saying that man has no part to play.
The reason I come on as strong as I do, is because these words are rarely found here on this site. And I understand that, because the truth of God's total sovereignity is such a new experience for most! But I see/and know that the exact things you described above are the natural human tendency. You mean God is doing everything? So if I feel like lusting, that is God doing it? How ridiculous. And I do not believe God wants us to lose ANY ZEAL in our fervor or efforts in light of understanding His sovereignity. TRUTH is supposed to SPUR you on, to help you run the race with victory not accepting defeat. I do NOT object AT ALL to the constant refrain, that All is of God. ITS TRUE! However, I do feel the direct statements that say God is the one who raped little children, are not the true understanding. I think Ray has made that clear.
I don't think any of the verses I quoted above has any qualifier on them, at all. They all spiritually match one another, pretty close. There is nothing in the text that says, Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart, IF YOU CAN DETERMINE THAT IT IS OF GOD RIGHT NOW> IF YOU DONT FEEL LIKE IT< WELL THEN RIGHT NOW< APPARENTLY IT IS NOT OF GOD RIGHT NOW SO SIT ON THE COUCH AND SIP ICE TEA, don't bother trying> so don't bother trying to seek Him. These are simple commands of fact, they need no qualifiers.
There is a time and a place for everything. There is a time to be zealous and a time to be meek. There is a time to preach and a time to be taught. God decides; not man.
Very true. And I think it is time for someone to be zealous for the other side of the coin to balance out WITH the plain plumb true fact that God wants you-all- to seek Him with your whole heart. No matter what. And no doctrine should/will discourage you in any way from doing this. You have to have both points of view in mind always, the absolute, and the relative. We know the absolute by what actually happens, but we have to give our sweat blood and tears as Jesus did. YES WE DO>
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Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
IF YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE TOTAL SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD CAUSES YOU TO PUT LESS AND LESS IMPORTANCE ON SCRIPTURES LIKE THESE ABOVE, EVEN SECRETLY, DEEP IN YOUR HEART, AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING CAN CAUSE YOU TO NOT ATTEMPT TO OBEY THEM OR ONLY TRY HALF HEARTEDLY BECAUSE THEY SOUND LIKE ‘FREE WILL’ TO YOU, THEN YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED.
I see no qualifier IN ANY SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER that we need to wait till we are personally convinced God is motivating us. If you are not motivated, then REPENT your heart is wrong and you better seek God just like those scriptures tell you to do, and just like those scriptures attest, God will reward those who earnestly seek Him. Not ONE of us is PRIVY to the workings of God behind the scenes. So stop acting like you are, just because you see through a glass darkly and now think you are so wise; and can see some of His workings; start obeying all those scriptures!
Son, are you talking to me? If so, read on. If not, rise above.
Normally I try to rise above and cause no stumble. Today I’ll make an exception, for you.
Don’t you hand-feed me, like popcorn, scripture as if you’re in judgment of the intent of my heart. You don’t have the experience and you’re not qualified, not yet anyway. And don’t be preaching and shouting, I hear you fine enough.
You have a good way with words Doug, they’re polished. Polish is a pretty covering, but skin deep. My words usually kink, jostle and splatter their way through and every now and then, like a miracle, they join up to make a complete sentence. Sometimes, hell, they even make a little sense.
This will be one of those times, so pay attention.
The use of the word ‘IF’ has both positive and negative implications. And don’t roll your eyes as if you knew the difference, you didn’t.
Negative:
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, ---If--- thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
6And saith unto him,--- If--- thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, ---if--- thou wilt fall down and worship me.
9 words: “thirst comes from God even--- if--- that is true,”
Those last 9 are your words Doug. I’m talking to you.
Positive:
“But there are spiritual principals in the bible that God has left us, and if God has not opened up your understanding, I’ll give you these spiritual principals, but you’ll still go out of here and say, “I don’t know what Ray is talking about.” But if He opens your understanding and only God can do it, and then you’ll say, “I know what he’s talking about now.”
How Hard is Getting Saved? by L. Ray Smith
People scramble a lifetime ping-ponging on a two letter word……“IF”. That small word enslaves and destroys. Ray, in 30 or so papers and countless emails, has exemplified the positive side of the word “IF” and extricated more than one soul-slave from the prison of ‘NEGATIVE ---IF---‘. That’s what that man does, and, I see that as the backbone of BT.
Careful on your use of the word “IF” Doug, not knowing the how of it can be destructive.
If I offend you, good, you won’t hear an apology. What you will hear is advice from a seasoned veteran.
Psalms 23:4 “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
If I didn’t make a difference showing you what the word “IF” can do, during your walk, you’ll find it isn’t “---if---thou art with me.
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Hello gk
that post was not directed at you. My posts are directed to everyone, IF :) sometimes to named ones, then I highlite the parts. It was only happenstance that your post was caught between. And that IF should of been "though" I don't think I am that polished :D everyone who knows me my speech can be Geage Bush like. I thought the IF was rhetorical in nature, not meant to mean plain old IF. Sorry. So your right, I should be more careful with my words, sometimes what is written is noit what one has thought.
Son? I am over 50. ;D
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None of us are saying that good works are not needed. All good comes from God. The nub of the matter is who gets credit for the good works?
If we think, in our heart, that the good works come from us, that repentance comes from us, that our knowledge comes from us, that our faith comes from us, then we are God in the temple of our heart. The Beast lives in our heart.
On the other hand, when we are baptized with the Spirit, when Jesus lives within us, then the Beast has been killed, and we do those things that Jesus does. We think like Jesus and we do the works of Jesus. Through this Spirit we are subject to the Kingdom of God. God is sovereign and rules within us.
Therefore, since it is through the influence of the Spirit of Jesus (the same Spirit as His Father) that we do good works, then God gets all the credit for the good works that we do. God is sovereign in all things. All the credit, all the glory goes to God.
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John from K
I love your last post.
Doug
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Hello gk
that post was not directed at you. My posts are directed to everyone, IF :) sometimes to named ones, then I highlite the parts. It was only happenstance that your post was caught between. And that IF should of been "though" I don't think I am that polished :D everyone who knows me my speech can be Geage Bush like. I thought the IF was rhetorical in nature, not meant to mean plain old IF. Sorry. So your right, I should be more careful with my words, sometimes what is written is noit what one has thought.
Son? I am over 50. ;D
No line in the sand here friend, shall we both partake of a plate of ‘bumps’?
[b]Running the Race is a Marathon, Not a Sprint
No matter the disputes that arise between us all, we're all in this together. We're all running this race and we're all going to receive this prize at the end. Just remember, it's a marathon not a sprint, with bumps along the way.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13435.0.html[/b]
gk
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Hi everyone,
This is q good discussion because we have to search out the scriptures and understand the sovereignty of God in everything. I just wanted to bring out that I remember watching a video of Ray and he states,(I'm paraphrasing) that without Gods hold on us, we would all be the worst of the worst. We would all sin with abandon. It is only His hold on all of us that keeps us the least bit civilized. Does anyone know where to find that?
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I found this email from Ray directly concerning some of my concerns, please bear with me one more time. I really really like what Ray says here in this email about the sovereignity of God and our lusts, evil things we do. I just want everyone to be very circumspect about saying directly things like "When you see a child rapist God the Father did that" in regards to Gods total sovereignity.....
Dear Richard:
Many hundreds of readers have tried to put words into my mouth over the years. None has been successful to date. You may not realize it, but you either totally misunderstand much of the teaching of Scriptures, or you too are putting words in my mouth that I never put there. I will make a few comments to your email....
I Have no free will. God controls all causes. God made me the who I am, a sinning machine.
COMMENT: I don't ever recall saying that "God has made everyone of us what we ARE." Where have I ever said that? I have said many times that "we are sinning machines," and I have said many times, that God "made us spiritually weak," but I don't recall ever saying that God "MADE child molesters?"
Whatever I do is God working in me to do.
COMMENT: No, I never said that either, but I have quoted Phil. 2:13 extensively: "For it is God which workes IN YOU [works WHAT in you?] both to will and to do [the RAPING OF LITTLE CHILDREN? NO...] of HIS G-O-O-D PLEASURE." Is it God's "GOOD pleasure" that evil men rape little children? Yes God created all that is in the Universe in which are found the things that CAUSE men to rape little children, but it is NOT, I SAID NOT, "God working IN THEM" to rape little children. It is THEIR OWN LUSTS that cause them to do the evils that they do.
How many thousands of times must I say: "We need to pay close attentions TO THE WORDS" before someone will believe me?
Whatever I will is God working in me to will.
COMMENT: NO, and we already covered this.
I can't earn sainthood, God chose his saints before the disruption of the world (and I gather that this was NOT a result of him looking forward in time to see if They would "pass the test" before he chose them). Saints are not appointed to indignation. Everyone else is. My question to you, as stupid as it may be,
IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO ESCAPE INDIGNATION?
OR AM I TO UNDERSTAND THAT GOD WILL OR WILL NOT PUT ME THROUGH INDIGNATION BASED SOLEY ON HIS DECISION BEFORE THE DISRUPTION AND REGARDLESS OF ANY EFFORT I PERCEIVE THAT I MAKE?
COMMENT: You clearly do not understand [1] God's Sovereignty and [2] Man's lack of sovereignty (free will).
When you say, "I can do..." are you suggesting that if I say, "Yes, you can do this," then by my admonition to you and your acceptance of that admonition, you can then indeed DO SOMETHING THAT GOD HAD NOT PLANNED ON? See what I mean? You cannot have "free will," AND a Sovereign God--it is a contradiction.
I don't know whether you personally will go through God's wrath or indignation. All I know is that God has not appointed His ELECT TO WRATH (I Thes. 5:9). I am not the judge as to whether you personally (whom I do not know at all) are one of the Elect or will be one of the Elect, etc. Jesus knows those who are His (II Tim. 2:19)
WILL HE MAKE SURE I GO THROUGH INDIGNATION BY SETTING UP CAUSES AGAINST MY BEING RESCUED AND WORK IN ME TO WILL AND TO DO THOSE THINGS THAT WILL BRING UPON ME HIS WRATH?
COMMENT: If God has determined that you will go through any form of His wrath, then it will happen. I don't know what else I can say. God often frustrates the "plans of men." The Pharisees THOUGHT that they found eonian life in the Scriptures, but Jesus said they didn't. They wanted it, but they did not find it. As to why that is so, there are many answers, and they are all in according with God's intentions in working out HIS plan and purpose. I have no idea where you are at with your walk with God. I don't know if you are a lot converted or not the least bit converted. But rest assurred that God will do to you and for you exactly what He deems best. Don't presume to think God is OUT TO GET YOU.
God be with you,
Ray
"work out your own salvation with much fear and trembling"
This question has been staring me in the face for a while now, and it is a little scary.
Thank you,
Richard
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Hey Doug,
Your last post was beautiful, too.
John from K
I love your last post.
Doug
Oh, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity.
It does my heart good when an argument is resolved this way! It's so rare.
Usually, arguments don't produce anything but ill will.
Everyone keep on keepin' on. Life is tough.
Josh
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Here are a few excerpts from the Bible study Saved By Grace Thru Faith' to add to the discussion.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.msg43145.html --------------------------------------
That’s what grace is, divine - divinity - God - Godly influence on your heart. But now we’ve taken grace out of the realm of a noun, into a verb, it’s doing something you see. Of course I said that a long time ago.
Jesus didn’t need grace for any pardon of anything. But did He need the influence of God, divine influence on His heart? Absolutely. That’s why He could live the way He did, accomplish what He did, never give in to wrong motives and temptations and all that. He had this divine influence of God on His heart ALL THE TIME.
So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10)
“Yet not I” what? He said I labored, you know what that means, work. I’ve ‘worked’ harder than all of them, yet it wasn’t I that works... right? Notice it wasn’t I that was doing the work, but the grace of God which was with me. The grace of God... what?
These things are all understood, notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain. But I labored more abundantly than they all labored, yet not I labored, but the grace of God labored. That’s what it’s saying, can you see that? So what is the grace of God doing in Paul’s heart? It LABORS, it works.
v
So faith is the channel and faith is believing. So you just have to believe, that’s something in your mind, that’s simple enough. I accept your free gift to save me and I believe it, that’s it, good, all done. No, not quite. Because we read, “The sum of Your word is truth…” (Psalms 119: 160(CLV). You have to put it all together.
In Luke 6: 46 Christ says, “Why call you Me Lord, Lord.” Listen, that’s faith. If you call Him Lord, it means you believe He’s Lord, right, that’s faith. So He says, why do you pretend to have faith in Me, by calling Me Lord, but you don’t do what I say? See it’s a false faith, “you do not do what I say.” It is a contradiction to say, you have faith and you don’t do anything. Notice the rest of this verse in Ephesians.
Eph 2:8 for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith (believing and doing God‘s will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9 not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works), created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
Do you get that? Where it says “not of works,” but “for good works.” Wait a minute is that a contradiction? No, “not of (our) works” but “for (His) good works.” There are works, they’re just not ours. But we are of His workmanship. Workmanship has the word ‘work.’ The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’ When you want to achieve something it takes work. Who’s doing the work here? God is doing the work. What is that work? Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things.
Eph 2:10 “… created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”
So there are works.
Rom 8:28 “And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good…”
v
We are saved by grace. It’s free, gratuitous gift from God, but it does something. It teaches - it chastens - it educates - it is divine influence upon the seat of our emotions - thinking - plans - purpose - goals - aspirations and everything else. It divinely influences that heart, you can’t help it, it does it.
v
Grace is a gift, you don’t have it. Now this is something you can’t conjure up, it’s a gift of God. It’s always the grace OF God, it comes from God, there is nothing you can do. You say, ‘well what about the faith we’ve got, that comes from us.’ No no no, it says in Eph 2: 8-10 “… faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELF, it is the gift of God;”
The faith it’s a gift, the grace it’s all a gift, everything is a gift. It’s all a gift of God. It’s all faith, it’s all grace, they are all one thing. Grace causes you to live rightly. What does faith do? If you believe God, you do what He says. It is virtually the same thing.
Now what is the goal? To make you like Christ! What is Christ? He is in the image of God. So what does God want from us? He wants us to be in His image. Physical image? No, spiritual image. It is a spiritual thing that God is doing.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I had the chance to talk to Ray (email) recently and he does desire to help with questions, so I sent him some of the pertinent comments from this discussion. Here is his answer.
Hi Kathy: As I am in a great deal of pain in a half dozen places in my body, I am not up to try and answer these arguments in depth, however, let me make a few COMMENTS.....
"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
The Beast within would just love to think it could kill the Son of God by its free will actions.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
RAY'S COMMENT: I hesitate to use such statements as suggesting that the Great God "KILLED His Son." Look closer at the Scripture you quoted and you will see that it says, "the RULERS of this world...CRUCIFIED the Lord of glory" (1Cor. 2:08). And if that would not have been possible except that Jesus said Joh 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again".
And so it was Jesus HIMSELF Who laid down His life. And again
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
you seem to think that you have no part in the outcome of how God is working through you. Is God repenting for you of your sins or do you have some type of accountability in what choices you make? All of us here know that the Father is in total control of His creation[no free will],but does that also mean that you have no part in His plan and purpose concerning your own life?
RAY'S COMMENT: Accountability really doesn't have much to do with free will. Certainly we have a part to play in our lives. If we didn't I guess God really could have made everyone robots. What I have stressed so many times is that although we are not inherently good, nonetheless, WE LEARN. We LEARN to do good where in the past we did bad. And when we learn to do good, then there really is good present in our lives.
is your only reason for believing that your beast is dead, is that really really believe you simply are 100% along for the ride, and now that you are, because you are willing to attribute 100% of every one of your thoughts and actions to God the Father directly, so NOW you claim your beast is dead? Just believing that (extreme IMHO) kills the beast? Based on that alone? Is that what the doctrine of No free will really means to you?
Now the following questions are rhetorical to everyone. What about crucifying your flesh? Have you crucified your flesh of its carnal passions and desires? To me, a CLEAN thought life and CLEAN heart and godly and Christ honoring actions would be more an indicator that your beast is dead. If I am doing Christs works, and thinking Christs thoughts, then I believe my beast is dead. Would God really say that your beast is dead if your heart is full of lust, adulteries, lies, coveting, and all the other millions of sins? Are you really are you are putting all others before yourself, even loving your enemies, then I would say your beast is dead. Just because you are at peace in your own soul because you believe that all your actions and thoughts are completely the direct acts of God, have always been the acts of the Father, and always will be,
RAY'S COMMENT: All of our actions as assuredly NOT "the direct acts of God." Example: Does God "directly tempt us to sin?" Answer: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He ANY MAN." (James 1:13).
does NOT mean you beast is dead. So what if you believe that. You could be a terrible person and be completely content in all your terrible actions because God is the one doing them, not you. We will wait for the judgement of Christ to reveal the secrets of mens hearts. We will see if God values your "beast killing" PREEMINENT OVER ARCHING belief that everyone of your impulses, thoughts, actions, and desires are the direct act of God or if God values your acts of Love towards your fellow man, your obedience to Christ, your holiness of putting away the carnal nature and serving others. And we will see which weighs more on the scales, what you believe is the beast killing belief and LOVE, LOVING all people and doing all you can in LOVE with Christ.
I see no qualifier IN ANY SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER that we need to wait till we are personally convinced God is motivating us. If you are not motivated, then REPENT your heart is wrong and you better seek God just like those scriptures tell you to do, and just like those scriptures attest, God will reward those who earnestly seek Him. Not ONE of us is PRIVY to the workings of God behind the scenes. So stop acting like you are, just because you see through a glass darkly and now think you are so wise; and can see some of His workings; start obeying all those scriptures!
And I think it is time for someone to be zealous for the other side of the coin to balance out WITH the plain plumb true fact that God wants you-all- to seek Him with your whole heart. No matter what. And no doctrine should/will discourage you in any way from doing this. You have to have both points of view in mind always, the absolute, and the relative. We know the absolute by what actually happens, but we have to give our sweat blood and tears as Jesus did. YES WE DO>
RAY'S COMMENT: There are some good points made here..........
None of us are saying that good works are not needed. All good comes from God. The nub of the matter is who gets credit for the good works?
If we think, in our heart, that the good works come from us, that repentance comes from us, that our knowledge comes from us, that our faith comes from us, then we are God in the temple of our heart. The Beast lives in our heart.
On the other hand, when we are baptized with the Spirit, when Jesus lives within us, then the Beast has been killed, and we do those things that Jesus does. We think like Jesus and we do the works of Jesus. Through this Spirit we are subject to the Kingdom of God. God is sovereign and rules within us.
Therefore, since it is through the influence of the Spirit of Jesus (the same Spirit as His Father) that we do good works, then God gets all the credit for the good works that we do. God is sovereign in all things. All the credit, all the glory goes to God.
RAYS' COMMENT: Actually a great deal of credit does go to those who have good works:
2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and PROFITABLE UNTO MEN.
Tabitha was raised from the dead by Peter. Do we not think that maybe she was granted this incredible miralce because she was 'FULL of good works?"
Act 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.
We will in fact be reward for OUR good works even though they are inspired from God.
God be with you all,
Ray