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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: SteveB on May 17, 2006, 09:47:32 PM
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A disciple is a student. I for one am certainly a student of Jesus Christ. All of Christ’s elect are His disciples to whom this verse applies:
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
This verse gives the lie to the false doctrine called the ten second sinners prayer. Christ makes this statement to “those Jews which believed in him.� one of the greatest false doctrines in the Adversary’s arsenal is the twisting of Christ’s admonition to be merciful in judgment, and twisting it into a doctrine that forbids God’s church from “judging the things which are within.� Here is that much distorted scripture:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Paul tells us clearly that we had better put the leavening of false doctrines and sin out of our midst. But the Adversary has the entire “historical orthodox Christian church� convinced that heresy in God’s church is perfectly acceptable. The mantra of all ecumenical minds is “Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials.� Exactly what is ‘essential,’ and what is ‘non-essential’ is left up to the lead wolves to decide.
Here is Christ drawing a distinction between those disciples who “believe on Him� and those who “continue in my word.� Believing on Christ and publicly proclaiming Him as your Lord might have many believing that you are a disciple of Christ. But according to Christ, nothing could be farther from the Truth. According to Christ only those who “continue in His word are His disciples indeed.� Do you doubt that this is true? Do you think that believing in Christ and praying the sinners prayer, proclaiming your love, and your belief in the grace and faith of Jesus Christ are all that is needed for salvation? Well think again. Just look at what Christ has to say to these very “Jews which believed on Him:�
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
An so it is to this very day those who believe in Christ want to kill those who are faithful to His Words “Love thine enemies… All who take up the sword shall die by the sword.� These words of our Lord are hated and despised by all the leaders of “historical orthodox Christianity.�
Hence it is only those who “continue in my Word who are Christ’s disciples indeed.� All others may loudly proclaim otherwise, but their doctrine betrays the fact that “My Word has no place in you.�
Here is how important “continuing in my Word� was to the apostle Paul:�
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Isn’t the weeding out of heretics and witches something reserved for fanatical tyrants like the early Puritans, or modern day cult leaders? Who has any right to tell me that their doctrine is better than my doctrine. One thing is certain. No one can tell any one else what they must do:
2 Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
And what is a heretic? A heretic is one who teaches heresy. And what is heresy? Heresy is false doctrines coming from the mouth of false brothers who call themselves God’s prophets and all the while teaching those under their charge to disobey, hate and despise the doctrine of Christ. Where does Titus 3:10 fit into “unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials?� Contrast this ecumenical doctrine of toleration of heresy with these words of admonition from God’s own apostles:
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus [ A Jesus who tells you to take up again thy sword and fight for God and country], whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another [ecumenical- lets just tolerate heresy, otherwise we’ll appear as a know it all dictator] spirit, which ye have not received, or another [God will burn most of His creation in hell for all eternity] gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear [ecumenically] with him [in the non-essentials].
Paul was apparently well aware of how hard it is to stay faithful to Christ’s words in the face of those who teach Christ’s people that ‘all that matters is love and grace and faith.’But if “judge not that ye be not judged,� means that we are not ever to judge heretics, then where, pray tell, do these inspired words fit into “Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials?�
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit [doctrine] , but try the spirits [doctrines] whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the [church] world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that [the true ‘Love thine enemies’] Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that [the true ‘love thine enemies’] Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world [’Don’t listen to Christ, why if you listen to Christ you won’t even be able to have a web page, you had better take up your sword and fight against and kill your enemies or you will be in a world ruled by Judaistic Pharisees in Peter’s day or Moslems today, Russians yesterday and Germans before that, etc.] and the [ecumenical]world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We [who abide in the doctrine of Christ] are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love [thine enemies and] one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not [his enemies] knoweth not God; for God is love.
Look closely at these words of the doctrine of Christ, so slighted by the ecumenical mind:
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from [Christ- love thine enemies… put up again thy sword, all who live by the sword shall die by the sword] the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jo 1:7 For many [ecumenical] deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that [the true] Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This [ecumenical Jesus ] is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this [love thine enemies… put up again thy sword ] doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Do these verses have any affect upon the ecumenical mind? I have yet to see these verses addressed by any of the thousands who preach and teach that love and faith and grace are all that matters. “Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials� is a much popular doctrine than the doctrine of Christ which right here tells us that we must “abide in the doctrine of Christ or else we “have not God.� And while these detractors loudly proclaim their love just look at how John here defines love
And this is love, that we walk after his [love thine enemies… put up thy sword] commandments
And it is even more telling when we discover that the word translated ‘continue’ as in:
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
is the Greek word ‘meno,’ Strongs # 3306. This is the exact same Greek word which is translated as ‘abide’ here in 2 John:
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth [Greek ‘meno’] not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Christ’s words:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
have very effectively been twisted into a lie which has effectively dismantled the shield against heresy which these many verses concerning ‘abiding in the doctrine of Christ,’ would have provided. What Christ is saying here at the beginning of Matthew seven is “judge not [harshly] that you be not judged [harshly] for with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged.� These words, as is so often the case, duplicate the very next verses:
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Is Christ telling us not to judge our brother’s heresies? No, not at all. look at His conclusion:
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Christ wants us to get the moat out of our brothers eye. But Christ will not tolerate hypocrisy. Get the beam out of thine own eye first “then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.� And it is in this same chapter where Christ makes this statement:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
“Ye shall know them by their fruits?� Does that sound like Christ was telling us not to judge the things within the church? No, of course not. The scriptures do not contradict themselves. Paul instructed the church at Corinth to judge both sin and heresy in their midst:
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Does that sound like Paul thought that Matthew 7:1-2 meant that we were not to judge sin and heresy in our midst? No Paul tells us to put away from among yourselves that wicked person [who abideth not in the doctrine of Christ.�] Christ made no attempt at being ecumenical. Neither will His “disciples indeed.� Many are called to proclaim themselves His disciples. But very few are chosen to be faithful to the words of Christ. For those few hearty souls Christ has these words of warning and encouragement:
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
“Hated of all men… called Beelzebub, persecuted. � What else do God’s elect have to look forward to? Apparently Those who will remain faithful to and “aide in the doctrines of Christ� will apparently be a lonely bunch:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen
If Christ was persecuted, hated of all men, called names and a member of a very small and scattered group then we too must suffer the same because:
1Jo 4:17 (b) …As he is, so are we in this world.
I hope you see now what it means to be a “disciple indeed.� And I especially hope that you can discern the difference between a disciple and a disciple in deed? I hope you can now understand why the entire “historical orthodox Christian church� is so hopelessly lost in a sea of heresy. And above all I hope you can see that heresy is not to be tolerated at all. I ask this question every opportunity I get to do so: Who is the ‘we and the us’ of 1 John 4:
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
If we are unable or unwilling to immediately identify with this exclusive group as those who� abide in the doctrine of Christ,� who are the limust test for the “spirit of truth versus the spirit of error,� then we must remember:
Luk 19:22 (a) …Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant…
So here is your choice. It is a caused choice but you will have to choose between these two:
“Unity in the essentials and tolerance in the non-essentials,� VERSUS:
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
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Heres my two cents Steve, prior to that verse is what is profitable and after shows what is not profitable, even vain itself.
Titus 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[/u]
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is so we might bear fruit to God, to be a partaker of His divine nature. The wholesome words of Christ whose doctrine is according to Godliness
1Titus 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Knowing and understanding all things is not something to be impatient toward if patience is a fruit of the spirit that is to be found in us.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith[/u], so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[/u]
Knowledge is what vanishes away
1Cr 3:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.[/u]
Its not wrong to know in part
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/u]
Which includes knowledge
Aren't we to be perfected in love? Faith worketh by love, its the goal of our faith, the evidence God dwells in us (who is love). His disciples would be known by their love for one another. To know God is to love Him and the brethren even our enemies. Even if one would say, "I love God" but hate his brother that defines one as a liar. Same goes for Gods love and lliving according to His commandments, He commands us to "love one another".
Obedience unto what?
1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
I love this verse you quoted Steve, helpers of ones joy!! Not dominion over others faith, some have a weak faith others strong, enough to move mountains if need be, but if faith works by love what good is faith without love? Would I not be nothing at all?
2 Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Paul gave examples of heresy for us that we can know. I think its commendable to be accepting of others who are weak in faith. Thats what the body of Christ does but builds "up" until we all come to the unity of the faith. We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part. These CAN indeed be known even "all" but they are in part and can be had without love. The form of knowledge puffs up, the light of knowledge manifests itself in love.
If we cannot even love one another how can we love those who hate us? The first should be easy, and that seems impossible with some. :lol:
Daniel
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Ooopsy double posted :oops:
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1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Knowledge is what vanishes away
Does that mean you shouldnt have it?
1Cr 3:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Its not wrong to know in part
True but you must go past the milk to strong meat. Loving you enemies a portion of strong meat, indeed.
Aren't we to be perfected in love? Faith worketh by love, its the goal of our faith, the evidence God dwells in us (who is love). His disciples would be known by their love for one another. To know God is to love Him and the brethren even our enemies. Even if one would say, "I love God" but hate his brother that defines one as a liar. Same goes for Gods love and lliving according to His commandments, He commands us to "love one another".
Yes He does tell to love our enemies. The definition of hate however would be what i'd be doing if we were to tolerate 'the cancer of tolerance'.
Paul gave examples of heresy for us that we can know. I think its commendable to be accepting of others who are weak in faith. Thats what the body of Christ does but builds "up" until we all come to the unity of the faith. We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part. These CAN indeed be known even "all" but they are in part and can be had without love. The form of knowledge puffs up, the light of knowledge manifests itself in love.
Asking questions is cool. I do. Building up others is cool. I do(Lordwilling)
Teaching false doctrine is not cool. Those who do after the second admonition MUST BE REJECTED. THATS A COMMAND AND NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.
Paul told us the Corinthian fornicator was to be delievered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh(a good thing). This is what i would expect you to do to me if i were teaching false doctrine.
Knowledge does puffs up and you must fight it, BUT YOU MUST HAVE IT!
If we cannot even love one another how can we love those who hate us? The first should be easy, and that seems impossible with some.
What is your def. of Love?
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i hear you Steve :D
loud and clear, what you typed there is identical to what i have learned, particularly as i have listened to Mikes audio mp3's.
and felt it confirmed in the spirit.
but what can be done?
people like Lightseeker and SOTW and plenty of others before them continue to be allowed on the bt board, and people that don't understand these concepts continue to misinterpret the motives of any who want to rebuke those who are not following Christ, if what they type is anything to go by, and what else is there to go by on a message board.
that's why it might be a good idea to have a section of the forum called the
"i agree" section.
in that section you are not a trinitarian you are not posting sneaky attacks or casting doubt on Mike and Rays teachings etc etc it is understood that you agree.
time and time again i come on the bt board get really blessed and interested in something then BLANG!! some hogwash post straight out of carnal central needs refuting rebuking or just plain deleting.
i've got better things to do than waste time refuting heretics. (after two admonitions)
if i wanted to read deceptive posts i could go to any number of message boards.
rambling on a bit here.
or the idea of having a part of the message board you can only get into if you are invited and seconded by people who have read your posts and found you to be at least not a trinitarian or Ray and Mike dissenter or some other kind of Truth hater.
oh i can hear the cries now
ELITIST! SNOB! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!
look all i want is a bt board where i dont have to read attacks on true doctrine.
anyways
who cares what i think i certainly dont, Gods will be done
another day closer to the place no dissenters enter
one day the door will be shut on all this tomfoolery and wickedness
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
God knows i long for that day
no more alexander the coppersmith
no more balaam and jezebel
no more hymenaeus
no more false brethren
etc etc etc
hehe poor old ertsky needs to go and have a lie down now :lol:
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i hear you Steve
loud and clear, what you typed there is identical to what i have learned, particularly as i have listened to Mikes audio mp3's.
and felt it confirmed in the spirit.
These are not my words they were taken right from mikes audio talk 'what is a disciple' i just cut and pasted them.
but what can be done?
We can stand up and let OUR Light shine. The ones who hear US hear God and the ones who dont, dont. Not because were anything but ONLY because Chirst is IN US, there His works and NOT OF OURSELFS!
people like Lightseeker and SOTW and plenty of others before them continue to be allowed on the bt board, and people that don't understand these concepts continue to misinterpret the motives of any who want to rebuke those who are not following Christ, if what they type is anything to go by, and what else is there to go by on a message board.
This is my main concern. The people, Gods people, can be led away with every wind of doctrine from the wolves who seek to TEACH and dont understand what they say or do. :cry:
that's why it might be a good idea to have a section of the forum called the
"i agree" section.
in that section you are not a trinitarian you are not posting sneaky attacks or casting doubt on Mike and Rays teachings etc etc it is understood that you agree.
Thats a great idea :idea:
time and time again i come on the bt board get really blessed and interested in something then BLANG!! some hogwash post straight out of carnal central needs refuting rebuking or just plain deleting.
I know. This 'cant we all just get along' nonsense is VERY deceptive. It makes you look like the bad guy. This is why Christ said WE WILL BE HATED OF ALL MEN. EVEN THE ONES WHO BELIEVE IN UR.
i've got better things to do than waste time refuting heretics. (after two admonitions)
if i wanted to read deceptive posts i could go to any number of message boards.
Its not the heretics i'm worried about(God will deal with them) its the sincere people who are looking for the Truth and are being led astray.
rambling on a bit here.
or the idea of having a part of the message board you can only get into if you are invited and seconded by people who have read your posts and found you to be at least not a trinitarian or Ray and Mike dissenter or some other kind of Truth hater.
That is an AWSOME IDEA! For only those who are of ONE MIND, Jesus Christs.
oh i can hear the cries now
ELITIST! SNOB! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!
Get used to it brother. YOU WILL BE HATED OF ALL MEN.
anyways
who cares what i think i certainly dont, Gods will be done
another day closer to the place no dissenters enter
one day the door will be shut on all this tomfoolery and wickedness
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
God knows i long for that day
no more alexander the coppersmith
no more balaam and jezebel
no more hymenaeus
no more false brethren
etc etc etc
hehe poor old ertsky needs to go and have a lie down now
My heart aches for the full manifistion of the SONS OF GOD. Brother its coming, I tell you the Truth.
Love...Steve
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Daniel
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Knowledge is what vanishes away
Steve
Does that mean you shouldnt have it?
Daniel
Ofcourse not Steve, its not the end all but a means to the end, if you will allow the saying for lack of better words.
2Peter 1:5-9 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/u] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Whats the difference between the form of knowledge and the light of knowledge? The gospel or the light of the gospel? The form of godliness or the power of godliness? Knowledge alone without love is what he is speaking of. Paul had knowledge himself and with it he became all things to all men to win them. He confronted unfruitful works of darkness, the strivings over words, the list is all there in scripture itself.
Asking questions is cool. I do. Building up others is cool. I do(Lordwilling)
Teaching false doctrine is not cool. Those who do after the second admonition MUST BE REJECTED. THATS A COMMAND AND NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.
Daniel responds,
I actually quoted the very verse in my post with the first and second admonition (in full) so I was not subjecting it to my own personal opinion. I only added the surrounding verses in its context, where did I subject my personal opinion to it?
This is the verse prior to it
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
They kicked out that "wicked man" for his immoral practices, but even "that wicked man" was brought back in in 2 Corinthiians (see below)
I would only question the former in using it across the board in practically every case. Sometimes its used when it does not need to be. Doctrine and ones life go hand in hand. The doctrine is after godliness right? To Timothy Paul told to watch both his doctrine and his life to save the hearer. Nothing will cut an ear off to the gospel faster then a meanspirited deliverance of the message. Not saying being angry is wrong, we can be angry and sin not, Paul was and so was Jesus. They confronted hypocrisy. But they didn't seeth hatred :lol:
What is your def. of Love?
The one spoken of in scripture best describes that which you can discern in another. You can note who has some of "that" in them :wink: as well as the wisdom that descendeth down is perfectly described in scripture and its fruit.
Of the man in 1 Cornthians who was cast out, have you ever read Paul's second letter in regard to him?
2Cr 2:6 Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which [was inflicted] of many.
2Cr 2:7 So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive [him], and comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Cr 2:28 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your] love toward him.[/u]
2Cr 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Cr 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ;
I love the concern and even the desire to bring back in exhibited, to me thats an example of the love and forgiveness of God.
Daniel
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Heres my two cents Steve, prior to that verse is what is profitable and after shows what is not profitable, even vain itself.
Titus 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[/u]
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is so we might bear fruit to God, to be a partaker of His divine nature. The wholesome words of Christ whose doctrine is according to Godliness
1Titus 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Knowing and understanding all things is not something to be impatient toward if patience is a fruit of the spirit that is to be found in us.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith[/u], so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[/u]
Knowledge is what vanishes away
1Cr 3:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.[/u]
Its not wrong to know in part
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/u]
Which includes knowledge
Aren't we to be perfected in love? Faith worketh by love, its the goal of our faith, the evidence God dwells in us (who is love). His disciples would be known by their love for one another. To know God is to love Him and the brethren even our enemies. Even if one would say, "I love God" but hate his brother that defines one as a liar. Same goes for Gods love and lliving according to His commandments, He commands us to "love one another".
Obedience unto what?
1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
I love this verse you quoted Steve, helpers of ones joy!! Not dominion over others faith, some have a weak faith others strong, enough to move mountains if need be, but if faith works by love what good is faith without love? Would I not be nothing at all?
2 Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Paul gave examples of heresy for us that we can know. I think its commendable to be accepting of others who are weak in faith. Thats what the body of Christ does but builds "up" until we all come to the unity of the faith. We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part. These CAN indeed be known even "all" but they are in part and can be had without love. The form of knowledge puffs up, the light of knowledge manifests itself in love.
If we cannot even love one another how can we love those who hate us? The first should be easy, and that seems impossible with some. :lol:
Daniel
Here is one with true knowledge, very well said Daniel.
The thing that keeps coming to thought is, since we came out of babylon and they brand us heretics, they condemn us to a fiery torture of hell forever. So my question is, if branded a heretic by a believer who does not believe in hell, one who also knows of the soverignity of God, and that God will save all, and confesses they forgive their enemies, where does a heretic go to these kind of people?
God bless,
Gary
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I actually quoted the very verse in my post with the first and second admonition (in full) so I was not subjecting it to my own personal opinion. I only added the surrounding verses in its context, where did I subject my personal opinion to it?
We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part.
Weak sheep you be correct. Wolves in sheeps clothing are the people to who i refer. That what your not seeing. Tha come as angels of light but are the ministers of satan and decieve many.
He confronted unfruitful works of darkness, the strivings over words, the list is all there in scripture itself.
I following Paul as he followed Christ. YOu assume i rebuking heretics because i hate and am 'meanspirited' NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I'm doing what Paul told us to do.
I would only question the former in using it across the board in practically every case. Sometimes its used when it does not need to be. Doctrine and ones life go hand in hand. The doctrine is after godliness right? To Timothy Paul told to watch both his doctrine and his life to save the hearer. Nothing will cut an ear off to the gospel faster then a meanspirited deliverance of the message. Not saying being angry is wrong, we can be angry and sin not, Paul was and so was Jesus. They confronted hypocrisy. But they didn't seeth hatred
You question 'not using it across the board in practically every case'? Who am i supposed to believe, Paul or You?
"seeth hatred" you judge my thoughts? YOu know the intent of my heart? Have you ever read any of Christs rebukes? I've been VERY CAREFUL not to overuse language. Yet you assume i do this out of hate?.?
I love the concern and even the desire to bring back in exhibited, to me thats an example of the love and forgiveness of God.
So do I. Love...Steve
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Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Gary
The thing that keeps coming to thought is, since we came out of babylon and they brand us heretics, they condemn us to a fiery torture of hell forever. So my question is, if branded a heretic by a believer who does not believe in hell, one who also knows of the soverignity of God, and that God will save all, and confesses they forgive their enemies, where does a heretic go to these kind of people?
Not sure if I caught that last question Gary, where do "we" go? As in holes in the ground? :lol: Or how can we go "to them"? I don't know, I never feel led to say anything or go anywhere as odd as that might sound.
Its not easy to be with cruel people, but their words do lose their sting knowing the grace of God in truth. Any of their words spoken in unkindness are "their own words" for which they answer for.
I cringe "for them" actually :shock:
Where you want to go Gary? :lol:
Daniel
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I actually quoted the very verse in my post with the first and second admonition (in full) so I was not subjecting it to my own personal opinion. I only added the surrounding verses in its context, where did I subject my personal opinion to it?
We can't get there together if we butt the weak sheep and exclude on the basis of something that is naturally in part.
Weak sheep you be correct. Wolves in sheeps clothing are the people to who i refer. That what your not seeing. Tha come as angels of light but are the ministers of satan and decieve many.
He confronted unfruitful works of darkness, the strivings over words, the list is all there in scripture itself.
I following Paul as he followed Christ. YOu assume i rebuking heretics because i hate and am 'meanspirited' NOTHING COULD BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH! I'm doing what Paul told us to do.
I would only question the former in using it across the board in practically every case. Sometimes its used when it does not need to be. Doctrine and ones life go hand in hand. The doctrine is after godliness right? To Timothy Paul told to watch both his doctrine and his life to save the hearer. Nothing will cut an ear off to the gospel faster then a meanspirited deliverance of the message. Not saying being angry is wrong, we can be angry and sin not, Paul was and so was Jesus. They confronted hypocrisy. But they didn't seeth hatred
You question 'not using it across the board in practically every case'? Who am i supposed to believe, Paul or You?
"seeth hatred" you judge my thoughts? YOu know the intent of my heart? Have you ever read any of Christs rebukes? I've been VERY CAREFUL not to overuse language. Yet you assume i do this out of hate?.?
I love the concern and even the desire to bring back in exhibited, to me thats an example of the love and forgiveness of God.
So do I. And when you come back i'll welcome you back like the cor. did the fornicator. Love...Steve
Oh my :shock: Steve, where in any place have I adressed YOU personally? :shock: Not at all, you started a post for discussion, I was only joining in to speak with you concerning some verses to both add and have a bit of discussion.
I'm so sorry if you are taking my responses as being AT YOU rather then WITH YOU.
I do not want to get kicked off this board for intentions not mine. I will not respond no further, Im sorry I made you think for some reason this was about you, it was not but the general thought of the verses I was sharing.
Again, Im very very sorry
Daniel
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Tit 2:11 For1063 the3588 grace of Godthat bringeth salvation4992 hath appeared2014 to all3956 men,
Tit 2:12 Chasening us that, denying ungodlinessand worldly lusts, we should live2198 soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;165
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I'm so sorry if you are taking my responses as being AT YOU rather then WITH YOU.
I'll take you at your word and your forgiven. :D
Please forgive me for taking it that way.
Love...Steve
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ALL are put through the lake of fire. The lake of fire is Gods consuming Spirit. Few in this life, most at the great White Throne Judgment. Nonetheless we all are put through the fire, admit it or not. Noone can escape the judgment of God.
When we go through this, should we call our brothers and sisters a fool or even worse a heretic? Honestly, can a sinner judge another sinner? Or is this something left to the Righteous Judge, until we know in full, since now we know only in part?
Personally, I have Jesus Spirit in me, this is not known out of conjecture, but through true experiences. There is no doubt within myself at all. I thank the Lord for giving me that. He gave me strong faith, that is past what can be seen or even sensed in my mind. This is why I speak of the love of God often and to be honest, not often enough.
I cannot help if some people can not understand that, but just because they cannot understand it, will not deny the fact that God is all about love, mercy and forgiveness. Especially seeing that we believe that all will be saved in the longrun.
His strong love brings me through the fire of His Spirit with chastisement, puts me through persecutions, that shows me through experience and not only the reading of His word, how to and not to treat my fellow brethren and sisters.
This is what is meant to be careful, we might be speaking to angels (messengers) unaware. Gods true people do not put all their cards on the table. They test those spirits and are careful not to cast their pearl before swine. We must speak in brotherly love and not to show two pair, when the one you accuse, might be holding a full house.
God bless,
Gary
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I'm so sorry if you are taking my responses as being AT YOU rather then WITH YOU.
I'll take you at your word and your forgiven. :D
Please forgive me for taking it that way.
Love...Steve
Yes please reread the post Steve. YOU are not being adressed but scripture is being discussed by comparison WITH YOU. I was not even talking about you. Where could you have ever drawn that to that conclusion?
Your forgiven for taking scripture as being directed at you verses being discussed with you.
My words were never used or directed at you anywhere. If I'm missing something in any accusation in the future please copy paste these to my attention and ask rather then accuse. You dont have to take my word for anything, words are a dime a dozen, you can reread and see for yourself. I never adressed YOU anywhere except to discuss your thread.
What you thought I was doing to you, you just did to me in that regard. No hard feeelings, I just hope if we ever bump path again speeaking of scriptures you won't find yourself as the center of conversations not about you, ok?
Daniel
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ALL are put through the lake of fire. The lake of fire is Gods consuming Spirit. Few in this life, most at the great White Throne Judgment. Nonetheless we all are put through the fire, admit it or not. Noone can escape the judgment of God.
When we go through this, should we call our brothers and sisters a fool or even worse a heretic? Honestly, can a sinner judge another sinner? Or is this something left to the Righteous Judge, until we know in full, since now we know only in part?
Personally, I have Jesus Spirit in me, this is not known out of conjecture, but through true experiences. There is no doubt within myself at all. I thank the Lord for giving me that. He gave me strong faith, that is past what can be seen or even sensed in my mind. This is why I speak of the love of God often and to be honest, not often enough.
I cannot help if some people can not understand that, but just because they cannot understand it, will not deny the fact that God is all about love, mercy and forgiveness. Especially seeing that we believe that all will be saved in the longrun.
His strong love brings me through the fire of His Spirit with chastisement, puts me through persecutions, that shows me through experience and not only the reading of His word, how to and not to treat my fellow brethren and sisters.
This is what is meant to be careful, we might be speaking to angels (messengers) unaware. Gods true people do not put all their cards on the table. They test those spirits and are careful not to cast their pearl before swine. We must speak in brotherly love and not to show two pair, when the one you accuse, might be holding a full house.
God bless,
Gary
Praise God!
That was beautifully put Gary
Daniel
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ALL are put through the lake of fire. The lake of fire is Gods consuming Spirit. Few in this life, most at the great White Throne Judgment. Nonetheless we all are put through the fire, admit it or not. Noone can escape the judgment of God.
When we go through this, should we call our brothers and sisters a fool or even worse a heretic? Honestly, can a sinner judge another sinner? Or is this something left to the Righteous Judge, until we know in full, since now we know only in part?
Personally, I have Jesus Spirit in me, this is not known out of conjecture, but through true experiences. There is no doubt within myself at all. I thank the Lord for giving me that. He gave me strong faith, that is past what can be seen or even sensed in my mind. This is why I speak of the love of God often and to be honest, not often enough.
I cannot help if some people can not understand that, but just because they cannot understand it, will not deny the fact that God is all about love, mercy and forgiveness. Especially seeing that we believe that all will be saved in the longrun.
His strong love brings me through the fire of His Spirit with chastisement, puts me through persecutions, that shows me through experience and not only the reading of His word, how to and not to treat my fellow brethren and sisters.
This is what is meant to be careful, we might be speaking to angels (messengers) unaware. Gods true people do not put all their cards on the table. They test those spirits and are careful not to cast their pearl before swine. We must speak in brotherly love and not to show two pair, when the one you accuse, might be holding a full house.
God bless,
Gary
Amen, Gary!
I have written three different replies to this thread and could not bring myself to hit SEND, and the longer I sat trying to decide the LONGER the post became....
I hesitate to say ANYTHING having just come back to the board so recently... especially when this was the very thing that caused me to leave the forum in the first place... and one I have already been so outspoken about in the past. :?
I was biting my tongue and feeling the pain of it.... :P
But I am blessed by this post and the love that you continue to exhibit here and encourage in others. =D>
Being able to see ONE truth or TEN truths or ONE HUNDRED truths in no 'guarantee' that we are not deceived in some other area....
Even Mike has had to repent of teaching heresy. :shock:
We know NOTHING until God reveals it to us... and we can try the spirit and still come the 'wrong' conclusion..... we can harbor some 'idol of the heart' or some 'heresy' of our own and not even be aware of it.
But God willing we WILL BE made aware of it and have it/them BURNED OUT OF US... in His time.
In the meantime... I, like you, try to err on the side of love and forgiveness and patience and long-suffering.... I thought of the entertaining angels unaware verse as well.... along with these:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For
I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.[/list:u]
And before I open my mouth, I try to always remember this:
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.[/list:u]
Out of our OWN MOUTH we will be judged.... :shock:
Besides.... we are not to judge one another.... but....
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.[/list:u]
OK... I keep ADDING here, too..... :oops:
:-# <--- still not very good at 'that' 8-[
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I was not even talking about you. Where could you have ever drawn that to that conclusion?
I did reread and I'll take you at your word. Love...Steve
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Even Mike has had to repent of teaching heresy.
Out of our OWN MOUTH we will be judged....
Besides.... we are not to judge one another.... but....
1Co 4:5 Therefore5620 judge2919 nothing5100, 3361 before4253 the time,2540 until2193, 302 the3588 Lord2962 come,2064 who3739 both2532 will bring to light5461 the3588 hidden things2927 of darkness,4655 and2532 will make manifest5319 the3588 counsels1012 of the3588 hearts:2588 and2532 then5119 shall every man1538 have1096 praise1868 of575 God.2316
1Co 5:12 For1063 what have I to do5101, 3427 to judge2919 them also that are without?1854, 2532 do not3780 ye5210 judge2919 them that are within?2080
1Co 6:2 Do ye not3756 know1492 that3754 the3588 saints40 shall judge2919 the3588 world?2889 and2532 if1487 the3588 world2889 shall be judged2919 by1722 you,5213 are2075 ye unworthy370 to judge the smallest matters?2922, 1646
1Co 6:3 Know1492 ye not3756 that3754 we shall judge2919 angels?32 how much more3386 things that pertain to this life?982
1Co 6:4 If1437 then3767 ye(3303) have2192 judgments2922 of things pertaining to this life,982 set2523 them5128 to judge who are least esteemed1848 in1722 the3588 church.1577
1Co 6:5 I speak3004 to4314 your5213 shame.1791 Is it so,3779 that there is2076 not3756 a wise man4680 among1722 you?5213 no, not3761 one1520 that3739 shall be able1410 to judge1252 between303, 3319 his848 brethren?80
1Co 10:15 I speak3004 as5613 to wise men;5429 judge2919 ye5210 what3739 I say.5346
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Steve...
The large print does not help, nor do the strong's references contained within the text of the verses that you quote. It is very difficult to read and it only makes it seem as though you are YELLING and trying to shove something down my throat. :?
I am very well aquainted with the scriptures.... shall we just pit one set of verses against another until one of us gets tired and gives up? Is bigger better? How about you keep red and I'll take aqua or something?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Steve, you CAN'T REPENT of a heresy until the truth has been revealed to you and you KNOW that you are/were in error.
You missed the point. :(
Does the fact that Mike taught 'heresy' make him any less a part of the body of Christ? Will you cast him out of the body that YOU claim to be a PART OF, IF tomorrow God reveals something to you that you believe contradicts what it taught/believed by Mike.... or would you still consider him a brother in the Lord and try to approach him as such and present your 'revelation' and your 'proofs'?? That he may very well REJECT.....
OR VICE VERSA.
Will you hope that he will ACCEPT YOU as a brother who might have something in the way of revelation and truth to offer him??
Do you see what I am saying now??
Blessings and good night,
Chrissie
We are known by our FRUIT... not our knowledge... knowledge is NOT a fruit of the spirit and LOVE SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE. There is a reason for that. :wink:
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Chrissie I love your signiture, how true that is!! I'm thinking on mine :lol:
God bless you
Daniel
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HA! I found mind inspired from yours Chrissie :lol:
Daniel :D
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Chrissie I love your signiture, how true that is!! I'm thinking on mine :lol:
God bless you
Daniel
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
no signature... just a post script (unlabeled) :oops:
Wonder what happened to my signature though. :shock: I did use to have one. :?:
But thanks anyway... and I am bowing out of this conversation. I wish I had just avoided it altogether, as I had tried (unsuccessfully, obviously) to do.
I should not have allowed myself to be enticed into this particular 'argument' again. [-X :oops: ](*,)
Blessings,
Chrissie
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ooops... posted over you......
I'll have to 'recapture' my signature and get it back in my profile... thanks for pointing that out to me.... :wink:
Good night!
Chrissie
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We posted at the SAME TIME!!! :lol:
Thats okay, I'll catch up with you on another conversation. Lets make like bannana's and split. All water under the bridge
Daniel
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There is a fine line between being eager to expose and cast out heresy, and becoming legalistic, reaching a point in which we deceive ourselves into thinking we've got all the answers to everything. I've crossed back and forth over that line time and again.
I think many folks, many of us, fall into the trap of thinking that because something is written in the New Testament, or because it's not "chiseled on tablets of stone," we think that it's impossible to follow it as a letter of the law. What I mean is - Christ showed us how following the 10 commandments down to the letter is of no profit. It is what is in the heart of a man that matters most. The same goes for any words in our bibles.
So, if we read Paul's command to reject a heretic after two admonitions as a command to automatically dissaciote with anyone who just doesn't quite see what we do, we are not going about it in the right way. I'm not talking about someone who is just obviously hardened and blinded by tradition and unwilling to look at plain truths, or someone who is deliberately trying to cause division and stir up trouble. That's a heretic.
I'm talking about people who are geuinely seeking the truth and yet can't quite see or accept some of the things that they are being shown. I believe there are some folks like that on this board (lightseeker) who are being treated harshly. Often times these folks present challenging scripture to the points being argued, and yet they are just dismissed or belittled. Much like what the Christian world does to folks like us. Let us not become as they are.
Perhaps those who believe they are following Paul's command to the letter might be well served to do a self-examination and see whether or not they understand the spirit of the command as opposed to the letter of it.
Don't think that we can't become modern day pharisees by becoming legalistic with those red words in the 4 gospels, either.
Words in stone or words on a page - it doesn't matter. The pharisees became legalistic with the words in stone and we can become legalistic with the words on the pages of our bibles.
I remember a small debate on these boards from a few weeks ago in which people insisted that if someone broke into their home and began brutalizing their family that they would not intervene in even the slightest way because God's will was being done and we are to turn the other cheek. Is that really what Christ meant when He said "turn the other cheek?"
Well, I believe that those who are being led by the spirit will understand that is not what was meant. Would anyone here, after getting knocked down with a broken jaw by being punched on the right side of the face, struggle back to his feet to turn the left cheek to be struck? Christ gave no exceptions to His command. If we wanted to follow His command to the letter, we would be sinning if we did not rise to our feet and turn the other cheek to be struck - no matter how difficult.
I am just giving an example of how we can become overly legalistic with NT teachings, something that I unfortunately see creeping up from time to time on these boards.
As for the topic of discussion - I think there is an interesting perspective that can be taken on John 21:18-19.
John 21
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
I think the general consensus is that Christ was referring to the martyr's death that Peter would eventually experience - the physical death. But what about the daily dying to the flesh that Jesus' true disciples must experience? I believe that is the death to which Jesus was referring. What about the part in which He said "Someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go?"
Well, look at Galatians 3:
27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Only when we are clothed with Christ can we be led into places in which we do not want to go, that is, places that our flesh does not want to go.
Jesus said that to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.
Did Peter's death as a martyr glorify God? I'm sure it did in some ways, but look at what Paul writes in Romans 1:
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.
We glorify and worship God by dying daily when clothed with Christ, just as was the case with Peter. Notice also that Jesus said to Peter "when you are old." Dying to the flesh is a daily and lifelong process that doesn't happen overnight. I know sometimes it's discouraging battling the flesh, but we just have to have faith that:
he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)
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Q: what is required of a disciple?
A: to take up our cross and follow Him :wink:
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While I agree that knowledge without love comes short of the goal it is one of the building blocks to reach perfection which is charity/love for all men especially our enemies.
When you build a house the ground must be graded, then the foundation put in place to support the walls, the walls must be strong enough to support the roof. If you skip any of these or are lax in any the house will collapse. Knowledge is a part of our growing process, but it is not the end all be all.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
2Co 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Joe
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When you build a house the ground must be graded, then the foundation put in place to support the walls, the walls must be strong enough to support the roof. If you skip any of these or are lax in any the house will collapse. Knowledge is a part of our growing process, but it is not the end all be all.
Joe your building example reminded me of a little story I wrote awhile back. It was posted on the forum before it crashed, here it is again. Hopefully it won't bore you to tears. :)
The Builder
Here is the story of building my house.
God laid out a pile of building materials and said, “Use all these pieces and build your house�.
I looked at the pile of material and saw that the pieces were labeled. There was Christ, Truth, Love, Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Gentleness, and Self Control. Looking at my pile of material I thought to myself, there is a lot here but not near enough to build a whole house. I looked out over the horizon and saw many people building their houses, some were just beginning, others were half way through and others appeared to be done. Most of these houses looked rather large too, much larger than my pile of material would allow.
Well I didn’t have a clue on how to begin to build a house and asked God to show me.
He said “you can do it, believe and just begin�.
As I puttered about wondering where to begin I kept looking at the large houses in the distance and decided that was what I wanted my house to be like. So I set off down the road to visit one of the people who lived in these other houses, to ask for construction plans and where to get more material.
I had barely left my lot and saw a sign that said building plans this way. I turned right and found myself looking at a magnificent building called the House of Religion. I hurried inside and met a man who introduced himself as the Architect; he held a book that he said was the building plan to a magnificent home. I asked him how to start my home?
He replied, “You have a pile of material now but you need more, and you don’t know how to begin the assembly, is that right?�
“Yes� I said excitedly, finally I found someone to lead me step by step in this daunting task ahead.
He said, “First you need a foundation, out back is a large pile of material marked Church, take this and lay the foundation to your home�.
“How much will I need�, I replied.
“Well it all depends on how large of a house you wish to build and how much you can afford, the cost is at least ten percent of your earnings, and some people even give more for the best material�.
I made my payment and took some Church home. I began to lay the foundation and made more trips to the Architect as I wanted a larger than average house. The Church pieces were uneven and didn’t all match exactly but they worked, I reasoned that if I could have afforded the better material, it would have come out better.
Once the foundation was done I visited the Architect to learn of the next step. He told me that the next part was the cornerstone and that would be easy as I already had the material for this.
He said, “Get the material you have marked Christ and use it for the cornerstone. On the rest of the corners you are in luck also, you already have the material for two of the three. Use Truth for the second corner, use Faith for the third and for the last you’ll need to go out back and get Free Will, Oh, and leave your payment in the box on your way out�.
I begin laying up the corners. I put Christ in place, though the fit seemed tight, I put Truth in next and it felt a little loose, Faith went in fine and Free Will didn’t seem to fit at all. I visited the Architect and told him of the trouble I was having getting the corners installed and that Free Will just wouldn’t fit properly.
He said, “Don’t worry, put these corners on the best you can, as you continue the other parts will help hold them in place�.
I finished the corners and now needed to begin my walls. Where to begin? Another trip to the Architect for the answers.
Upon greeting me he said, “You will quickly run out of material for this part as it takes a lot of material to build a wall. You already have Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness and Goodness, but it won’t be near enough, out back you will find a large pile marked Hell, another marked Law, and last a pile marked Doctrine, take what you need and leave your payment in the box on your way out�.
I thanked the Architect and took a large amount from each pile.
I returned to my building task and placed Joy on my wall; next to it I used Hell, Law and Doctrine. This didn’t fit for some reason, Hell, Law and Doctrine was not the same size or color and none of them fit with Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness or Goodness.
I returned to the Architect for guidance and he told me “Don’t worry, fit them the best you can and when you are through I have something special that will straighten it right up.�
I looked at him skeptically and he added “I’ve been building houses up and down this valley for ages and it always works out in the end, don’t worry�
I left with some relief and returned to my work.
Though the pieces didn’t seem to fit properly I did the best I could. I discovered if I used a lot of Hell in one place and a lot of Law and Doctrine together in another and mixed in Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness, and Goodness, at least the walls remained standing though it did look terrible.
I returned to the Architect and told him that my walls were up but looked hideous.
He smiled and said “Out front where you came in, did you notice there was a well?�
I replied that I had.
He said “In the well is a substance called Good Works, it has a bright color and is thick to seal cracks and when it dries your walls will look splendid. Also, take all you need for free, as we like to spread Good Works all around�.
I returned to my building with twice as much Good Works as I probably needed and began to slather it on my walls. I stood back as it dried and was amazed, the Architect was right, the walls did look great! Excitedly I began to see a house take shape; I just needed to get the roof, door and windows done.
I visited the Architect again. I told him how wonderful the Good Works made my house look and I was ready for the roof, door and windows.
He replied, “That’s wonderful, now you will be able to use Gentleness and Self Control but you will also need two other things, Rapture and Ceremony. They are out back to your left and leave your payment on the way out.�
I eagerly returned to my building. I used Self Control along with Rapture on the rafters and Gentleness with Rapture on the roof. Like the rest of my house the pieces didn’t quite seem to fit properly and I was afraid the first rain would result in a leaking roof.
So another trip to the Architect for instruction, I told him of my dilemma and he said “that is a normal occurrence, go to the back room and pick up your last bit of material, called Blessed. You always use Blessed on the roof so yourself as well as others will know how blessed you truly are�.
I picked up Blessed, left my payment and went out the door, (I also got some more Good Works).
I put Blessed on the roof and added some Good Works. The roof looked great and would surely not leak now. I felt rushed and excited, only one more piece, the door and windows. I used Ceremony for these, it went in with a lot of effort and some prying, I put a little Good Works on it and it too looked great, I was proud of my house.
I went to the Architect and thanked him for his wonderful guidance and I told him that I still had Love left over and wondered where to put it.
He said “take it inside and use it for light and warmth, in my experience though, it doesn’t give off much light or warmth but it is refreshing to admire from time to time�.
I said “Thanks again�, then ran up the street telling my neighbors to look at my wonderful house. They all agreed it was a grand home.
When I returned home I entered and felt like I had been punched in the stomach, the inside was a mess. The floor was crooked and uneven; the corners leaned in and out. Hell, Law and Doctrine jutted from the walls. Large cracks were visible and Good Works was dripping down all over the walls and ceiling. Rapture was loose in places and Ceremony, though it looked good on the outside, was rotted and mildewed on the inside. The house was dark, even though it was light outside very little of it got past Ceremony. I put Love in the middle of the room, but the Architect was right, very little light or heat radiated from it. It seemed as if Hell, Law, and Doctrine absorbed it all.
I went back to the Architect, when he saw me he said, “I went by your house yesterday and it looked great, one of the best around�.
I thanked him and timidly asked if I had maybe missed something?
He told me, “No, you have everything there is and you probably have more Good Works than most. You should be proud.�
I thanked him and went back home but felt as empty and dreary as the house was inside.
I lived like this for several years, people always commented how nice my house was and how blessed I must feel. I never invited them inside though, I was too ashamed. Then one day a storm blew in and Rapture fell down all around me, I propped a ladder against the wall to put Rapture back in place and pieces of Hell and Law fell out of the wall.
In my distress I cried “God why is this happening, I used what you gave me and it is all falling apart.� God remained silent………………
Over the next few years my house was in constant need of repair and work, I felt no pride in my home, I stayed away as much as possible, and I became angry and resentful.
Finally in my darkest time, I cried out to God again “Lord I am miserable and unhappy with my surroundings, surely this is not the house you had in mind for me or anyone else to live in, please, please show me what you want for me.� Then, God answered……..
When I retuned home again I found I had no home, there was nothing left standing. Church, Free Will, Hell, Law, Doctrine, Rapture, Ceremony, Blessed and Good Works were gone. In a pile lay, Christ, Truth, Love, Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Gentleness, and Self Control. I looked……stunned….
God spoke, “Use all these pieces and build your house, you can do it, believe and just begin.�
I looked down searching for my foundation, I picked up Christ, it was strong and even and fit perfectly as a foundation.
Next I looked for a cornerstone, Faith fit perfectly. I turned to pick the pieces for the other three corners and miraculously three more pieces of Faith were in the pile. I used them and they also fit perfectly.
The walls were next. I used Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness and Goodness. No matter how I arranged them in place they fit perfectly and when I used one from the pile another appeared in its place until the walls were complete and without blemish.
Next came the roof, I used Self Control for the rafters, and like the other pieces, when I used one another took its place. For the roof I used Gentleness and though it didn’t look like I had much, it seemed to never run out.
I used Truth for the door and windows. It also fit perfectly and gave a welcoming feel to my home.
When I had finished I stood back and saw a truly wonderful home. I did not feel proud however but wonderfully blessed. I entered and found the inside was even more wonderful than the outside and it was completely full with all I would ever need. When I placed Love in the center of the home its light and warmth radiated.
It was funny, Truth didn’t let the light of the world in but it let Loves light and warmth radiate outside.
I fell to my knees praising God and Christ and for the first time in my life felt complete. God looked down on me and said, “You are my Son and I am well pleased. Welcome home My Child.�
Blessings!
Craig
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I remember a small debate on these boards from a few weeks ago in which people insisted that if someone broke into their home and began brutalizing their family that they would not intervene in even the slightest way because God's will was being done and we are to turn the other cheek. Is that really what Christ meant when He said "turn the other cheek?"
Well, I believe that those who are being led by the spirit will understand that is not what was meant. Would anyone here, after getting knocked down with a broken jaw by being punched on the right side of the face, struggle back to his feet to turn the left cheek to be struck? Christ gave no exceptions to His command. If we wanted to follow His command to the letter, we would be sinning if we did not rise to our feet and turn the other cheek to be struck - no matter how difficult.
I am just giving an example of how we can become overly legalistic with NT teachings, something that I unfortunately see creeping up from time to time on these boards.
I definately see your point, but you have to remember that it can go both ways. Ray put it nicely in a paper where if you saw a woman being raped to go help her TO STEP IN ...BUT to not go fight the guy who tried raping the lady to get the death penalty . If someone were in your home attacking your family, I don't think we should just stand there and say "oh gee, I guess I need to turn the other cheek." no, We'd try to protect them. On the other hand, we can also get carried away (like we have with war) and go fight fight fight cuz we decide that Jesus couldn't have meant to really turn the other cheek.
TO SUM UP: It should be a balance.
(I don't think anyone in that thread meant they'd "not intervene in the slightest way"... no one said that to my knowledge)
:wink:
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Craig,
Very true analogy, little long, but point well taken. 8)
God bless,
Gary
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Craig,
I thoroughly enjoyed that, not boring at all and much wisdom within.
Thank you,
Joe
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The large print does not help, nor do the strong's references contained within the text of the verses that you quote. It is very difficult to read and it only makes it seem as though you are YELLING and trying to shove something down my throat.
I use the large print because of the strongs. I only got esword with stongs with a the search function. And i'm not yelling. Sorry if its hard to read.
am very well aquainted with the scriptures.... shall we just pit one set of verses against another until one of us gets tired and gives up? Is bigger better? How about you keep red and I'll take aqua or something??
How bout we make the scriptures agree. Because that what they do. The Rom. verse you gave dont contradict with the ones i gave. And i like red...its the color of blood.
Steve, you CAN'T REPENT of a heresy until the truth has been revealed to you and you KNOW that you are/were in error.
You missed the point.
Does that mean you shouldnt call a person out on it just because they dont realize it?? You tell them so they can know there error and if they repent you've gained your brother. :D
I'd expect no less for myself.
Does the fact that Mike taught 'heresy' make him any less a part of the body of Christ? Will you cast him out of the body that YOU claim to be a PART OF, IF tomorrow God reveals something to you that you believe contradicts what it taught/believed by Mike.... or would you still consider him a brother in the Lord and try to approach him as such and present your 'revelation' and your 'proofs'?? That he may very well REJECT.....
If Mike hadnt repented when the error was pointed out, then yes he should have been put out. IN fact he says this time after time if you'd read and listened to his teaching. Same thing goes for me.
Will you hope that he will ACCEPT YOU as a brother who might have something in the way of revelation and truth to offer him??
I know if I offer him anything in the scriptures he may have not seen or thought about and its in accord with the rest of spricture he would accept it. If not i should be given two admonitions and if i dont repent I SHOULD BE PUT OUT.
Thats the way it works. Those are not my words, but i believe them.
Peace...Steve
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Craig that was one of the best papers i've ever read. Thank you for sharing.
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Thank you Steve for posting Mikes article. I have been listening to Mike and Rays teaching on my computor as I have time. I believe they are both wise and learned men and I agree with almost everything they say.
What really bothers me about a few people on this forum, is their inability to commit to doctrinal issues and truths. Anytime a controversial doctrine is posted, some attack the one bringing the doctrine. Scriptures are quoted that supposedly contradict the doctrine in an effort to shut those of us up who believe in the importance of rightly dividing the truth.
Knowledge was mentioned by someone and how it will fail. But try to live life on this earth without knowledge. Line upon line, precept upon precept is how our knowledge is to grow. But, knowledge without wisdom or discenment can be a dangerous and haught thing. But let's not underestimate the importance of knowledge.
Isn't doctrine a part of love? Isn't it loving to "teach the truth in love?"
Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good DOCTRINE, forsake ye not my law.
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach KNOWLEDGE? And whom shall he make to understand DOCTRINE? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
In Mt1:22 people were astonished at Jesus DOCTRINE because he taught as one who had authority. In Luke 4:32 Jesus astonished those in Capernaum because of his DOCTRINE: for his word was with power. John 7:17 says If we do Jesus will you will know of the DOCTRINE wheter it is of God. Acts 2:42 The believers continued stedfastly in the apostles DOCTRINE and fellowship and in breaking bread, and in prayers. In Ephesians 4:14-16 we are told: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, wherby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; from whom the whole body fitly joined together together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 1Tim.1:3 Teach no other DOCTRINE vs 10 Teach sound DOCTRINE. 1 Tim.4:6 Be nourished in the faith and good DOCTRINE.
So, if doctrine is a secondary issue, how do you explain these scriptures that admonish us to learn, teach and continue in doctrine? And what do these scriptures mean if we don't take them at face value.
Many times people who accuse others of being unloving, unkind judgmental are exhibiting those very behaviours themselves in their accusations. There doesn't seem to be much patience for those of us who want to contend for the faith and hold fast the word of truth.
I came to BT because I agree with almost all of Ray and Mikes writings. I believe they have a special gift of understanding deep truths in the scriptures. But, until God confirms something in my spirit I cannot say I agree with it. There are some things they teach, I don't know it they are true or not. But, I have studied and prayed about them and I still don't know. So, for now, I just have to believe that God doesn't want me to see the truth on a doctrinal issue, so I just wait until He reveals it to me.
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What really bothers me about a fe
Thank you Steve for posting Mikes article. I have been listening to Mike and Rays teaching on my computor as I have time. I believe they are both wise and learned men and I agree with almost everything they say.
**Almost isnt good enough in Chirsts mind. Thats what being of one mind is all about. Could Ray or Mike be wrong in something they write? Yes, they could. Could I. Yes. As you've said before Peter was wrong and Paul confronted him about it.
So how can we be of one mind and have the ability to be wrong? We must judge the spririts, confront as Paul did, if your brother listens we've gained our brother. If not he MUST be put out for the desturction of the flesh,so the spirit my be saved. This is the prescription for 'disagreement'. By those LEAST esteemed in the church(i.e. Paul). **
Isn't doctrine a part of love? Isn't it loving to "teach the truth in love?"
Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good DOCTRINE, forsake ye not my law.
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach KNOWLEDGE? And whom shall he make to understand DOCTRINE? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
**I would underscore 'good' doctrine and the latter of not forsaking my law as well.**
In Mt1:22 people were astonished at Jesus DOCTRINE because he taught as one who had authority. In Luke 4:32 Jesus astonished those in Capernaum because of his DOCTRINE: for his word was with power. John 7:17 says If we do Jesus will you will know of the DOCTRINE wheter it is of God. Acts 2:42 The believers continued stedfastly in the apostles DOCTRINE and fellowship and in breaking bread, and in prayers. In Ephesians 4:14-16 we are told: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, wherby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; from whom the whole body fitly joined together together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 1Tim.1:3 Teach no other DOCTRINE vs 10 Teach sound DOCTRINE. 1 Tim.4:6 Be nourished in the faith and good DOCTRINE.
So, if doctrine is a secondary issue, how do you explain these scriptures that admonish us to learn, teach and continue in doctrine? And what do these scriptures mean if we don't take them at face value.
**The whole point why I posted was to exhort to this SOUND doctrine.**
Many times people who accuse others of being unloving, unkind judgmental are exhibiting those very behaviours themselves in their accusations. There doesn't seem to be much patience for those of us who want to contend for the faith and hold fast the word of truth.
**Many times people do, do that. Patience is a virtue i'm learning everyday. But 'conteding for the faith' and 'holding fast the word of truth'
is the rendered MEANINGLESS when there is division AMONG US. Paul tells us those that are NOT of one mine and only agree 'on the essentials' are carnal. You say that you agree with 'most' things. Paul says you must agree in ALL things. Which should be do?**
I came to BT because I agree with almost all of Ray and Mikes writings. I believe they have a special gift of understanding deep truths in the scriptures. But, until God confirms something in my spirit I cannot say I agree with it. There are some things they teach, I don't know it they are true or not. But, I have studied and prayed about them and I still don't know. So, for now, I just have to believe that God doesn't want me to see the truth on a doctrinal issue, so I just wait until He reveals it to me.
**If thats where God has you thats where he has you. I dont despise my brothers because they MAY be eating herbs. Waiting on God is all you can do. I pray Gods will in your life. BUT the scriptures point still stands. Christ disciples hear His voice and a stranger they will not follow. I know one day we will ALL be ONE MIND. Even so come, Lord Jesus.
Love...Steve**
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Don't yous think theres much we all must learn? Who can possibility be an expert or authority on it, or make that claim?
I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?
Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?
Daniel
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Don't yous think theres much we all must learn? Who can possibility be an expert or authority on it, or make that claim?
Learning is a process that never stops, line apon line etc.
Being an 'expert' is something to strive for but speaking with authority ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW is required. Christ is our authority and as he IS, so are we. :D
I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?
I certainly dont have ALL the details and have many things to learn and unlearn. But we can speak and preach the things given for the FEW to know. And speak BOLDLY, at that.
Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?
If we cant speak with authority how can we even know what being of 'one mind' is?
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I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?
Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?
Daniel
I hope so, Daniel. Otherwise all of us are on our own.
SteveB wrote:Almost isnt good enough in Chirsts mind. Thats what being of one mind is all about. Could Ray or Mike be wrong in something they write? Yes, they could. Could I. Yes. As you've said before Peter was wrong and Paul confronted him about it.
You really think this way, Steve? So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'? Is this really what being of 'one mind' means? Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach? Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.
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Don't yous think theres much we all must learn? Who can possibility be an expert or authority on it, or make that claim?
Learning is a process that never stops, line apon line etc.
Being an 'expert' is something to strive for but speaking with authority ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW is required. Christ is our authority and as he IS, so are we. :D
I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?
I certainly dont have ALL the details and have many things to learn and unlearn. But we can speak and preach the things given for the FEW to know. And speak BOLDLY, at that.
Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?
If we cant speak with authority how can we even know what being of 'one mind' is?
I don't know why you question things as you do, its what Ray said, I had admiration for his words. I spent the day in the e-mail forums. I was kind of quoting him from the e-mail forum because it seemed to fit here.
Ray stated
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."
"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."
Sometimes things are probrobly better off being given through the only people one might only have the ability to hear.
Goodness if Ray himself is working out the details etc, why is it not okay for us as well?
I found the place of that scripture you quoted :D
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: they would not hear, But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.[/u]
A littlle grace and patience with the young ones, were not talking about GRIEVOUS (SEVERE) WOLVES those who SPARE NO ONE :shock: Just young ones growing in the sincere milk of the word.
Daniel
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I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?
Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?
Daniel
I hope so, Daniel. Otherwise all of us are on our own.
SteveB wrote:Almost isnt good enough in Chirsts mind. Thats what being of one mind is all about. Could Ray or Mike be wrong in something they write? Yes, they could. Could I. Yes. As you've said before Peter was wrong and Paul confronted him about it.
You really think this way, Steve? So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'? Is this really what being of 'one mind' means? Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach? Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.
Ofcourse we can all be wrong, I know I can. Ray inspired that comment from me. As I was reading I thought of what Ray might say because I think Steve might be able to hear Ray better. What Ray said perfectlly fit here. I thought I'd submit it for his consideration.
Then when I had to answer for it :shock: I thought, maybe he could take it up with Ray who he admits to being %100 in agreement with . If he realizes that Ray said it, it should be okay now.
Just thought it was a good word. I just don't wannt to not discuss the things Ray teaches and get anyone mad at me, then again I don't want to quote him and have the same scenario. sometimes you can't win :lol:
Daniel
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I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way. I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.
I believe that God will give us the discernment to learn who among us is really seeking the truth and who may be just trying to cause heresies and stir up trouble. I also believe that we should strive not to be so hard on someone who may see things differently and yet is still honestly trying to learn.
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You really think this way, Steve? So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'? Is this really what being of 'one mind' means? Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach? Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.
YOu did misunderstand:)
I wasnt saying go along if they are wrong, i was saying they are capable of being wrong. Being of 'one mind' means speaking with one voice, with one Lord and one God.
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."
"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."
What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.
Goodness if Ray himself is working out the details etc, why is it not okay for us as well?
'working OUT details' is fine. Its what happens when there worked out. I never said i knew it all or that it wasnt ok to ask questions. But once you've asked and your ANSWER is contrary to the Word of God there is a problem.
A littlle grace and patience with the young ones, were not talking about GRIEVOUS (SEVERE) WOLVES those who SPARE NO ONE Just young ones growing in the sincere milk of the word.
Amen :D
I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way. I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.
I'm sorry i just cant agree based on the scriptures...
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except, they be agreed?
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
1Co 12:13 For, even to one Spirit, we all, into one body, have been immersed,-whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free,-and, all, of one Spirit, have been caused to drink.
Peace...Steve
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I agree, Joey. The day i stop asking questions is the day i need to worry. It takes humility to admit that we don't understand something. We all want to be 'in the know' on all of God's mysteries at once, thank you very much ...signed, sealed ...there we go ...no more need to search for that buried treasure, i have it all right here! And i will burn anyone at the stake who thinks differently! (sorry :P ).
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You really think this way, Steve? So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'? Is this really what being of 'one mind' means? Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach? Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.
YOu did misunderstand:)
I wasnt saying go along if they are wrong, i was saying they are capable of being wrong. Being of 'one mind' means speaking with one voice, with one Lord and one God.
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."
"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."
What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.
Goodness if Ray himself is working out the details etc, why is it not okay for us as well?
'working OUT details' is fine. Its what happens when there worked out. I never said i knew it all or that it wasnt ok to ask questions. But once you've asked and your ANSWER is contrary to the Word of God there is a problem.
A littlle grace and patience with the young ones, were not talking about GRIEVOUS (SEVERE) WOLVES those who SPARE NO ONE Just young ones growing in the sincere milk of the word.
Amen :D
I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way. I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.
I'm sorry i just cant agree based on the scriptures...
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except, they be agreed?
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
1Co 12:13 For, even to one Spirit, we all, into one body, have been immersed,-whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free,-and, all, of one Spirit, have been caused to drink.
Peace...Steve
It sounds to me like you are talking in circles.
You seem to say in one breath that you have to agree 100% or you are NOT of "one mind" but then turn around and say that you "are capable of being wrong".
You also said that Ray can teach with AUTHORITY without claiming to BE an authority or expert. I would agree, in that I can profess those things that I believe are true and quote the scriptures that I believe support those truths and be CONFIDENT and AUTHORITATIVE about what I say.... and still realize and accept that there is a POSSIBILTY that I could be under "strong dellusion" (wrong) about something. But that doesn't seem to be the same things that you are saying?
What you seem to be saying is that Ray has the Holy Spirit and ANYONE AND EVERYONE who does not "agree 100%" with Ray does not.... inferring , of course, that that means that YOU also have the Holy Spirit and anyone who does not agree 100% WITH YOU does not have the Holy Spirit (using the fact that YOU "agree 100%" with Ray as "proof" that YOU have the Holy Spirit).
But once you've asked and your ANSWER is contrary to the Word of God there is a problem.
What if YOU'RE the one who's wrong and YOU'RE the one who is 'rejecting' the truth? What if the answer YOU are giving is "contrary" to the word of God? You just don't know it?
You say that we have to agree 100% to be of "one mind"... yet you say that asking questions and "working out the details" are fine..... so what does that mean exactly? That so long as we are all WRONG about the SAME things at the SAME time it's OK?? Because we are of "one mind", dispite the fact that we are all "in error"??
I'm sorry but this whole idea of having to "agree 100%" or we aren't a part of the body of Christ or of "one mind" is just non-sense. :shock:
Dennis has mentioned a few times before that it took him 2 years to accept that he did not have "free-will". He never once mentioned Ray disfellowshipping him over it.
Something isn't true because Ray said so or because Mike said so... but because GOD says so. I only have ONE Holy Spririt and I can assure that His name is not "Ray" or "Mike" (no offense to either one of them, but I am PRETTY SURE that neither one of them would want OR EXPECT anyone to go against what they feel the Holy Spirit is revealing to them personally to follow after Ray and/or Mike and if I am WRONG about that, then I am in the WRONG place anyway).
As inspired as I believe Ray and Mike are and as much as they have helped me and others, I am not about to lean on any man more than God. My faith and trust are in Christ and I need NO MAN to teach me anything (at the expense of not relying on the ONE who will guide me into ALL TRUTH... and tell me NO LIE).
So let every man be a liar... and me as well.... but the day that I put my trust in anyone other than the Lord and His Holy Spirit is the day that I have crossed over into the darkness.
And the day that I am expected to put all of my faith and trust in the teaching of Ray or Mike to fellowship here is the day that I leave this forum and NEVER return. So if that is on the horizon I sure would like to know..... but I doubt very much that you are speaking for Ray or Mike anymore that I think that YOU can tell me what "Ray meant" by his comment.
Blessings,
Chrissie
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Steve you wrote,
What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.
Daniel replies,
I'm not the one who had the original misunderstanding concerning what Ray wrote. I was inspired to post it and share it with you. I understood what Ray meant when he shared it. You are the one who quoted it and wrestled it out and try to break it down, dissect it and question it. Now that I had told you I shared something Ray said, you can now agree (as I thought you would) and tell me what he MEANT.
Did it mean something different to you when you didn't know Ray said it?
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Daniel replies,
I'm not the one who had the original misunderstanding concerning what Ray wrote. I was inspired to post it and share it with you. I understood what Ray meant when he shared it. You are the one who quoted it and wrestled it out and try to break it down, dissect it and question it. Now that I had told you I shared something Ray said, you can now agree (as I thought you would) and tell me what he MEANT.
Did it mean something different to you when you didn't know Ray said it?
This will be my last post on this thread. It hasnt bore the fruit i'd hoped.
Knowing the context of a statement and what is meant by the writer seems to me essentail knowledge in understanding a statement. Knowing wether the writer is speaking in ambiguous, nondefined terms can be misleading.
In fact i do agree 100% with what He said knowing the beliefs of the writer.
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[bolds are mine]
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."
"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."
What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.
In fact i do agree 100% with what He said knowing the beliefs of the writer.
Steven are you familiar with what Ray tells people all the time? He says “QUOTE ME; do not tell me what you THINK I said.�
If what YOU said Ray “meant� is true, then it sounds to me that what YOU are saying is that Ray “means� that CHRIST (who is the one doing the work and teaching with authority THROUGH Him, still has “new things to learn� and "a few old things yet to unlearn�)
I don’t think that's what Ray “meant� and it certainly is not what he SAID (quote above).
You are right, though… NO FRUIT here….. and I have nothing more to say about the requirement to “agree 100%� with Ray to be a part of the body of Christ.
Not to mention that I have a test to study for. #-o
Good night,
Chrissie
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Joey writes
I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way.
I agree with this Joey,
2Titus 2:2 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.[/u]
Which is
1Titus 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
This one just about KILLS the ego, took me a LONG while to accept the word for myself, but what a RELIEF when I finally did. Notice the "ALL" part, seems to me one can indeed have it ALL in regards to these and be nothing "without love".
1Cr 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and UNDERSTAND ALL MYSTERIES[/u], and ALL KNOWLEDGE[/u]; and though I have ALL FAITH[/u], so that I could remove mountains, and HAVE NOT CHARITY[/u], I AM NOTHING.[/u]
I used to get mad at that verse (being sincere here) because I took pride in my knowledge, it was my pride (it puffeth up as knowledge can do) it was measuring rod, my rule, my spear, my judgment, my stature. So much was "tied up" into knowledge.
1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth[/u]: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL; whether [there be] tongues, they shall CEASE; whether there be KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY[/u]
Something WAY BETTER "coming" made me truly THINK on "that"
1Cr 13:9-10 For we know IN PART[/u], and we prophesy IN PART.But WHEN that which is perfect IS COME, THEN that which is IN PART shall be DONE AWAY.[/u]
Joey writes
I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.
Daniel writes,
I agree, if we CAN have "ALL knowledge and ALL understanding" (keeping in mind these being in part) and have NOT love and be nothing :shock: how can we judge another on not agreeing with our own understanding? How can we say imperfect knowledge is something to judge another on when scripture shows ALL knowledge ALL faith and ALL understanding is NOTHING without love? We could spin our wheels and go nowhere having all that but not love.
Its possible, the scriptures speak of this very thing. I'd rather fellowship with a kind brothers and sisters who are seeking Him with their whole heart. You can sense in them a sincerity that would be plain as the day itself. In that would be plain to anyones conscience then a "know it all" with a bad attitude. I prefer salt on my eggs as well, but thats just my preference. I think we all have them don't we? :lol:
Daniel
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Joey, Gill and all, some very good comments here, I was thinking about what was said about the seeking of His Truth as what makes us of one mind, the knowledge that we must continually search and verify, we don't actually get to the point of "being there" complete in knowledge and understanding.
I think that if all of us were literally searching a field for buried treasure we all would be doing it in a slightly different manner, some plowing right in turning over earth with a bulldozer and a backhoe, others would be going out with a sugar spoon carefully examining every inch of dirt in a sincere effort to find this treasure, and most others would be somewhere in between those two extremes.
That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.
Joe
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"Bob I have brought you to this opening of My truths to your eyes and ears. I have blessed these men and am using them to proclaim My truths but I now want you to do My will and I will lead you in what I want to reveal to you! I want you to abide in my Son Jesus Christ and My Spirit will guide as I teach you. I have used Ray and Mike and others to help you as you learn but always remeber that they or you can do nothing without Me! I am the the Way,the Truth and the LIfe. They and you must decrease and Christ must increase. I want you to read My word and I will give you understanding and it will Happen in My time table. My will is to use others to help all my called and chosen and I want you to keep your eyes on Me and to follow My Son."
bobby(bob)
:D :D :D Amen!!!!
Hbr 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Hbr 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Hbr 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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Bobby, those are words well spoken. I understand exactly and feel the same way.
Eternal life is to know Jesus. A true disciple yearns to stay in His word. To lose this life and give it back to the rightful owner is gaining life. We are all like seeds. A seed must die before being planted to grow and produce much fruit.
For me, the greatest thing I've learned from Rays site is just exactly who the beast is. This alone has opened up His word tremendously. There is no words that can properly thank him enough to teach this truth. It has brought a much closer relationship to my Lord.
All the honor goes to Him, I thank Ray for teaching, yet he is no different than I. The Holy Spirit shows different things to different people, which makes a many membered body, giving all the honor and glory to Him. For we all know we can do nothing without Him.
God bless,
Gary
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This thread is the best yet, you can't help but rejoice in the truth here! Back to Jesuus Christ who IS "THE Truth" :D
Bobby that was an excellent word! I agree we as well others are to decrease that HE might increase in us. Isn't that Gods will in each of our lives to be led by the Spirit and become the Sons of God. Your words resounded in the Spirit
As would be the case of another helping us, Jesus commended that John was a shining light and for a season they were willing to enjoy that light.
John 5:35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.[/u]
John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
He is the Author and finisher of our faith
1John 5:9 If we "receive" the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness IN HIMSELF: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1John 5:11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may KNOW HIM that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.[/u]
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe
John 1:8 He was NOT THAT Light, but was sent to bear witness OF THAT Light.[/u]
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth "every man" that cometh into the world.
Back to the RECORD
John 1:19 And this is the record of John[/u], when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 1:20 And he CONFESSED, and DENIED NOT; but confessed, I am not the Christ.[/u]
John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of HIS disciples;[/b]
John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
John 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and THEY FOLLOWED JESUS.[/u]
Its all about following Christ, not men even if John was sent by God himself.
John 3:26 they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to HIM.[/u]
You'd never hear this kind of response from ministers today who do not want the whole world to follow after Christ and "lose their place" or rule over others.
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.[/u]
John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear ME witness, that I said, I am NOT the Christ, but that I am sent before him.[/u]
Sounds like Paul who wanted Christ to be formed in them, whose prayer was for their perfection.
John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of "the bridegroom's voice" this my joy therefore is fulfilled.[/u]
As Bobby just quoted
John 3:30 HE must INCREASE, but I must DECREASE.[/u]
2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to ONE HUSBAND, that I may "present you" as a chaste virgin TO CHRIST.[/u]
Daniel
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That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.
Joe
Hehe, i like that :D .
The hell doctrine blasphemes against God's character, the free-will idea puffs man up ...there are some doctrines that do a great deal of damage in one way or another. But there are a many other truths that just seem to be seen differently by different people ~ each with their own scriptual take on it. For me personally, i hope that God keeps me being real in only proffessing that which i really do understand and believe. Even if that means i look a little dense or weak in someone else's eyes.
If Paul knew in part and saw through a glass darkly ...you can bet i will (and even more so). None of this means that i don't desire knowledge though! As Joe said: "FIND THE TREASURE!" :lol:
You know, if i thought the forum wouldn't break out in a rash, i wish we could discuss exactly what being a heretic really means. (Maybe one of the mods could suggest Ray do a paper; i would be interested to see his take on it ~ don't think he has written one already?). Surely there must be a proper definition. There must be a line drawn somewhere.
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You all are great, this is some great communication and speaks loudly. The truth bears witness through the Spirit.
I praise God that it is not all about who is right and who is wrong, from our point of view. For we all have been wrong at one time or another. I also thank the Father, that He had the wisdom to send His Son, to show the way. From experience, we never would of found it, if not for Him. There is nothing I can say or do to justify my existence. It is all about Him and Him alone.
Look at how lucky we are, to have One such as this to declare our Father to us. Words simply cannot express the gratitude we have. This is the foundation of our faith God gave us. The world cannot understand, this is why they try to explain God in a carnal manner, and put human characteristics upon Him. To put evil intentiions upon His plan, is something that makes us sick, for we have the witness of the Spirit.
Oh we can shout, we are right and they are wrong, but who is to say which is right except Him, for we can do nothing without Him, and no one does right, no not one. So, what is the point of this vain life we live, except to be thankful, for the life He gave us. Not only this physical life, but life aionian, which is to know Jesus. Can it get any better than this?
To walk and judge another one of His creation is not His plan for us, but to press on forward and to get out of the snares of this world. We have been chosen to come out of this world, to not partake of her sins, to be separate, unique, yet hated by this world. The bible, history and the present all testify to these things.
His last enemy to conquer is death and this world is full of it, whether in deed, thought or idealogy. Work on building love, patience, long suffering, forgiveness, meekness and righteousness. This is the hidden manna, that the world cannot receive, but we can, because His Spirit is in us.
God bless,
Gary
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=D> =D> =D> \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
thats all i can say.
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Good words... just came across these verses when I was looking up something on the harvest and the labourers:
Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much PATIENCE, in AFFLICTIONS, in NECESSITIES, in DISTRESSES,
2Co 6:5 In STRIPES, in IMPRISONMENTS, in TUMULTS, in LABOURS, in WATCHINGS, in FASTINGS;
2Co 6:6 By PURENESS, by KNOWLEDGE, by LONGSUFFERING, by KINDNESS, by THE HOLY GHOST, by LOVE UNFEIGNED,
2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
2Co 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, YET MAKING MANY RICH; as having nothing, AND YET POSSESSING ALL THINGS.[/list:u]
Chrissie
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Very nice posts going on. I just want to reiterate that God will give us wisdom and discernment when dealing with people, so that we can know if a person is genuinely seeking the truth. Jesus said that if we have the plank removed from our eye, we will see more clearly to dislodge what is in our brother's eye. But here's the important thing to remember - we must never make the mistake of thinking that the plank has been permanently removed from our eye, never to return again.
1 Corinthians 10
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
God will grant us the discernment to see who is truly seeking and who is just stubbornly clinging to "idols of the heart." We don't need to doubt that because Jesus said it, and we know His words are true. Sometimes it can be tricky and we probably won't see things right away, but the more we converse with someone, these things will come to the surface.
However, if we come to a place in which we think that our plank is permanently dislodged, we begin reaching that place in which we say "If you don't agree with me 100% on everything, you are a heretic and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ, and you must be disfellowshipped."
It's easy to fall into that trap. I myself, in eagerness to seek and uphold all truth, find myself getting sucked down that path every now and again. But I believe God sets me straight and shows me that this can be a dead end raod, because what happens when an issue arises in which I am not sure about or haven't reached a definite conclusion on? Where does that leave me? I either consider myself a blind heretic, or accept the fact that no matter how eager we may be to know all Truth, it just doesn't happen right away.
If having and agreeing upon ALL the answers is the only way that we can be of "one mind," then we are either going to be a one-man fellowship, or we'll be heading toward forming one of those nasty little "C" words.
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That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.
Joe
Hehe, i like that :D .
The hell doctrine blasphemes against God's character, the free-will idea puffs man up ...there are some doctrines that do a great deal of damage in one way or another. But there are a many other truths that just seem to be seen differently by different people ~ each with their own scriptual take on it. For me personally, i hope that God keeps me being real in only proffessing that which i really do understand and believe. Even if that means i look a little dense or weak in someone else's eyes.
If Paul knew in part and saw through a glass darkly ...you can bet i will (and even more so). None of this means that i don't desire knowledge though! As Joe said: "FIND THE TREASURE!" :lol:
You know, if i thought the forum wouldn't break out in a rash, i wish we could discuss exactly what being a heretic really means. (Maybe one of the mods could suggest Ray do a paper; i would be interested to see his take on it ~ don't think he has written one already?). Surely there must be a proper definition. There must be a line drawn somewhere.
I've been thinking about this today and looking up the verse and the words... here is what I have so far:
This is the verse that sort of started some of these discussions...
Tit 3:10-11 A man that is an
heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.[/list:u]
So what is a HERETIC?
Well, look at the verses LEADING UP TO these verses and I think they tell us exactly what a “heretic� is:
[sorry this is long.... it's spread out over two chapters] :oops:
speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:2 That the AGED MEN [CHILD vs MAN :?: ] be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tit 2:3 The AGED WOMAN likewise :wink: , that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the YOUNG [remember CHILDHOOD and YOUTH are vanity] women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Tit 2:6 YOUNG MEN likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the CONTRARY part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Tit 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. [guilty of MURDERS] :cry:
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN.[/list:u]
And here it is: :shock:
Tit 3:10 A man that is an
heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.[/list:u]
From the verses here, in which it is used, it seems to me that a “heretic� is one who commits all of those things listed here that we are to AVOID and REBUKE. It has to do with how we treat and speak to others, how we handle the doctrine of Christ… how we LIVE. Avoiding STRIFE and DIVISION and those things that are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN. :?:
The WORD here for “heretic� is G141 which means “a schismatic�
G141
αἱρετικός
aihretikos
hahee-ret-ee-kos'
From the same as G140;
a schismatic. (“heretic� is the Greek word itself.): - heretic [the Greek word itself].[/list:u]
So what a schismatic, if not one who causes “schism�? :o
Main Entry: schis•mat•ic
Pronunciation: siz-'ma-tik, ski-
Function: noun
: one who creates or takes part in schism
Main Entry: schism
Pronunciation: 'si-z&m, 'ski- also 'shi-; among clergy usually 'si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English scisme, from Middle French cisme, from Late Latin schismat-, schisma, from Greek, cleft, division, from schizein to split -- more at SHED
1 : DIVISION, SEPARATION; also : DISCORD, DISHARMONY
2 a : formal division in or separation from a church or religious body b : the offense of promoting schism
That is the ONLY time that this particular word is used in the NT, but others words that are derived from the same or similar words are used elsewhere:
G141 (aihretikos) is derived from G140, which means to “make a choice�, translated here as “chosen�:
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have
chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.[/list:u]
And G140 is derived from G138 which means “to take for oneself, that is, to prefer�
Found in these verses:
Phi 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall
choose I wot not.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;[/list:u]
Now G139 which means “a choice� is derived from G138 (to take for oneself ; prefer) and is translated heresy and heresies a few times, as well as “sect�:
Act 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the
sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/list:u]
Even denying the Lord... :shock: HOW might we do that?? :?:
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God;
but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.[/list:u]
Back to G138 :arrow:
Gal 5:18-26 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, HERESIES,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.[/list:u]
Where else might we find another witness concerning those from whom we should withraw? :-k
1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour,
that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach OTHERWISE, AND CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF. [/list:u]
Blessings,
Chrissie (http://fool.exler.ru/sm/wink.gif)
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Great post Chrissie, its great to read others "digging around" especially when its thought out, I covet your ability to write things clearly as you do. Thank you for taking your time to labour in the word and your sharing :D
You pretty much covered it, I was looking for anything to add, and not much, I ran into The "doctrine you HAVE LEARNED" to see how best does Paul expound about whats most important. I realize that the doctrine OF Christ is AFTER Godliness, the power of Godliness not just a FORM of it. And Ran into (after that) a verse concerning LEARNED "CHRIST" You Learn HIM. Coming to the knowledge OF HIM (WHO IS the Truth). Its HIM who sets free its HIM who is THE Truth not just answers to our questions but HIM. Created IN HIM unto good works, is why one can SHEW His WORKS "out OF" the meekness OF Wisdom (Christ). The Man it comes from whether the Hidden man (spiritual man) or out OF the Earthly Man with his corruptible vain conversation :lol: That why we add to our faith, knowledge, brotherly kindness (actions) experience (reality here) etc end up a furtherance of the knowledge OF HIM. Even though knowledge is "previously mentioned" as a building block for "adding to" ones faith and "these" abounding in you will keep you from becoming UNBARREN or UNFRUITFUL in your knowledge OF HIM. Enjoyed your post and your work in the word.
Just addding a few (nothing mind blowing here) :lol:
Romans 16:17 Now I BESEECH YOU, brethren, MARK THEM which CAUSE[/b] DIVISIONS and OFFENSES contrary TO the doctrine which ye HAVE LEARNED; and AVOID THEM. [/u]
Ephes 4:20 But ye have NOT so LEARNED "CHRIST"[/b] (good read) Notice the CAUSE divisions and offfenses above? In short its our actions Ephes 4:1 WALK worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called Ephes 4:3 ENDEAVORING "to keep" the UNITY of the Spirit IN the BOND of PEACE. Ephes 4:11 giving some, Ephes4:12 For the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the EDIFYING of the body of Christ: Ephes 4:13 TILL we all come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, "tossed to and fro", and carried about with every wind of doctrine (by deceiving men) Ephes 4:15 But "speaking the truth" IN LOVE, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ Ephes 4:16... in short... EDIFYING of itself IN LOVE.
Ephes 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be "put away from you", with all malice[/u]
Ephes 4:32 And BE YE KIND one to another, TENDERHEARTED, FORGIVING one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Phl 1:15 SOME indeed PREACH CHRIST even OF ENVY and STRIFE; and SOME also of GOOD WILL[/u]
Jamees 3:13 WHO is a wise man and endued with knowledge AMONG YOU? LET HIM SHEW OUT OF a GOOD CONVERSATION "his works" with "MEEKNESS OF wisdom"
James 3:14But IF ye have bitter ENVYING and STRIFE IN your HEARTS, glory NOT, and LIE NOT AGAINST the TRUTH.
James 3:15 THIS wisdom descendeth NOT from above, but is EARTHLY, SENSUAL, DEVILISH.[/u] :shock:
James 3:16 For WHERE "envying and strife" IS, THERE is CONFUSION and every EVIL WORK. :shock:
1Cr 14:23 For God IS NOT[/u] the AUTHOR of CONFUSION[/u], but OF PEACE[/b], as in all churches of the saints.
James 3:17 But the WISDOM that is "FROM ABOVE" is FIRST PURE, then PEACEABLE, GENTLE, and EASY "to be intreated", FULL of MERCY and GOOD FRUITS, WITHOUT PARTIALITY, and WITHOUT HYPOCRICY.
James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is SOWN IN peace OF them that MAKE PEACE.[/u]
Mathew 5:9 BLESSED are the PEACEMAKERS :idea: for they shall be called the children of God.
Contrary to this
Prov 6:14 FROWARDNESS is "in his heart", he "deviseth mischief" continually; he SOWETH DISCORD.
Prov 6:16 These SIX things doth the LORD HATE: yea, SEVEN are an ABOMINATION unto him: (notice the Seventh listed) :shock:
Prov 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
The Discord part is the one that tops it off as an Abomination
Prov 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and HE that SOWETH DISCORD AMONG THE BRETHREN.
Kind of forms a buch of raunchy body parts don't it? :lol: Notice the numbers? :shock:
God bless you Chrissie
Daniel
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YOu did misunderstand:)
I wasnt saying go along if they are wrong, i was saying they are capable of being wrong. Being of 'one mind' means speaking with one voice, with one Lord and one God.
Thanks for clearing that up, Steve. I'm sorry to have jumped-the-gun and used the 'cult-like' reference. I do get a bit over-nervous about these things ...been there done that etc. Can't help wondering though, if we could all get a bit too twitchy about 'heretics' or 'demons' etc. in the same way :?:
I would like to say that i'm so thankful for Ray's writings. I appreciate his straightforwardness and he comes across as someone who has really thought long and hard about the big and deep issues of life. At times, even his sarcasm and strong/direct approach has been really helpful in knocking down some of the terrible things i had been taught to believe. If i could be really selfish, i'd take a good few weeks and pick his brains about all of those questions that bug me :lol: ...but the poor man is always getting asked to write this and that ~ i'm so grateful for what he has already done!
Chrissie, thanks for posting all of those scriptures, and Daniel too. I don't have time at the mo to look through them thoroughly. Will do later :)
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Great reading going on here. Something I would like to add, that is required of a disciple:
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Being beheaded, spiritually is what happens to us when we truly have the mind of Christ. Knowing the carnal mind is an enemy of God.
John the babtists physical death has greater spiritual significance. Our true walk begins when we are beheaded of our carnal mind and begin to put on the mind of Christ. A process that begins at this point.
It truly is a new life, new mind, new walk, being born again. Not as the world talks of born again, but a whole new paradigm. Truly amazing!!
God bless,
Gary
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Great reading going on here. Something I would like to add, that is required of a disciple:
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Being beheaded, spiritually is what happens to us when we truly have the mind of Christ. Knowing the carnal mind is an enemy of God.
John the babtists physical death has greater spiritual significance. Our true walk begins when we are beheaded of our carnal mind and begin to put on the mind of Christ. A process that begins at this point.
It truly is a new life, new mind, new walk, being born again. Not as the world talks of born again, but a whole new paradigm. Truly amazing!!
God bless,
Gary
excellent,
Christ is the head of the body :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:
love
chuckt
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What is a disciple:
2Co 4:10 always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.