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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: zander on September 26, 2014, 01:44:56 PM
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HI,
I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages. I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.
Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.
1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?
2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?
3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night". Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it. A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed. Can someone explain?
4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible. What are they (i know they're not dead people)?
Thanks
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HI,
I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages. I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.
Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.
1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?
2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?
3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night". Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it. A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed. Can someone explain?
4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible. What are they (i know they're not dead people)?
Thanks
Hitler will not be raised with a glorified spiritual body like Christ. Those that die and do not overcome, who must undergo judgement through the lake of fire, will be raised to physical bodies. At least that is my understanding and it makes sense, especially when you consider the likes of hitler.
Those that are Christ's when He returns, will be caught up in the air to meet Him. These are the elect, the overcomers, the same who would be raised with spiritual bodies at the resurrection to Judge the world. They will help usher in the reign of Christ and ultimately, "the end" when Christ will turn over His Kingdom to the Father and God will become All in All.
I think your question to three, is self explanatory. When Christ comes, no one will have expected it. The world will be caught completely and absolutely off guard. The rest of us, those that are called and chosen, strive everyday to be as prepared as possible full well knowing that none of us can predict the day or time of when He will return. We just strive to get closer to God and to know Him better. If He comes during our short lifetimes, then at least we have confidence in Him and not be completely ashamed of our conduct because we were always striving to prepare as best as He empowers us to do so.
I don't know if "ghosts" per say are mentioned in the bible, but we do hear talks of spirit, evil spirits, and messengers etc... It is also entirely possible that because God can relay His message to us in many forms, a burning bush, "a voice", a man who can be wrestled with, etc... that He can also appear as a "ghost" or send spirits that would be perceived as such.
This is my understanding of these things, feel free to agree or disagree. I try and keep it scriptural but I am by no means the final authority on all things God. Just a very human guy falling flat on his face daily due to my shortcomings.
God bless,
Alex
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HI,
I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages. I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.
Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.
1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?
2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?
3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night". Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it. A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed. Can someone explain?
4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible. What are they (i know they're not dead people)?
Thanks
I think your question to three, is self explanatory. When Christ comes, no one will have expected it. The world will be caught completely and absolutely off guard. The rest of us, those that are called and chosen, strive everyday to be as prepared as possible full well knowing that none of us can predict the day or time of when He will return.
#3 Alex when you say "no one" are you including the elect? Do you think they will be caught completely off guard? Not talking about knowing the day or hour.
Reason I'm asking is because of the scriptures that say there will be such terrible destruction and tribulation leading up to His return that had those days not been cut short then no flesh would survive but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. Isn't this describing a near wiping out of all humanity? A near extinction?
Also the scriptures warn the elect to not be caught off guard like the foolish virgins etc.
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Thanks for the contribution Alex.
I thought we were judged as spiritual beings. I swear Ray once said something like: When I die, I will never see my body again and thank God for that"
Secondly, I thought the "caught up in the air with Christ" thing was a church teaching.
Thirdly, I understand the unexpectedness of Christ's arrival, however you missed the second part. To me, a thief in the night is unnoticed. He comes and he goes and I do not notice him. I am struggling to comprehend the "thief in the night" if that is the case.
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HI,
I rarely post here and often found myself having to re-register because I don't log in for ages. I came back again because I have some questions I wonder whether anyone could answer for me.
Don't worry if you cannot but if you can, please do.
1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?
2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?
3. When Jesus comes back it says "like a thief in the night". Now despite Ray's efforts to once explain this, I never quite understood it. A thief in the night to me means - unexpected and unnoticed. Can someone explain?
4. I am sure ghosts are mentioned in the bible. What are they (i know they're not dead people)?
Thanks
I think your question to three, is self explanatory. When Christ comes, no one will have expected it. The world will be caught completely and absolutely off guard. The rest of us, those that are called and chosen, strive everyday to be as prepared as possible full well knowing that none of us can predict the day or time of when He will return.
#3 Alex when you say "no one" are you including the elect? Do you think they will be caught completely off guard? Not talking about knowing the day or hour.
Reason I'm asking is because of the scriptures that say there will be such terrible destruction and tribulation leading up to His return that had those days not been cut short then no flesh would survive but for the elects sake those days will be shortened. Isn't this describing a near wiping out of all humanity? A near extinction?
Also the scriptures warn the elect to not be caught off guard like the foolish virgins etc.
Hello Largeli,
I don't know specifically if the elect will be caught off guard. I don't think they will be caught off guard in the sense that they will always be vigilantly preparing for the arrival of the Lord, each day, because we are told we don't know the hour or time so we should always be preparing. That being said, I think you speak too absolutely on things that could easily be interpreted from a spiritual perspective. Christ said not even He knows the hour of His return
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
so in that sense, I don't think tribulations will be making it any more obvious even to the elect. Maybe... Again, I'm not 100% sure on these things. We know that revelations is spiritual and that it is happening inside of us now, Christ has come now to us and is making His home in us. The trials and tribulations we endure, each one, brings us closer to Him.
I find it interesting though that Christ mentions Daniel and His prophecy in speaking of the "end times" and specifically declares, "let him who has understanding..."
Mark 13:14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"
Its interesting that there are specific instructions to "flee to the mountains" though I suppose this could be entirely spiritual too... Unfortunately I don't recall what the mountains signify spiritually and what fleeing to them might mean.
I think these prophecies have many layers of meaning and can be very hard to understanding. Someone more learned is perhaps in a better position to speak of them than myself. I only understand what ray has expounded upon, I never went further with these things and ray never really shed much light on Daniel and his prophecies, at least not that I currently can remember.
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Thanks for the contribution Alex.
I thought we were judged as spiritual beings. I swear Ray once said something like: When I die, I will never see my body again and thank God for that"
Secondly, I thought the "caught up in the air with Christ" thing was a church teaching.
Thirdly, I understand the unexpectedness of Christ's arrival, however you missed the second part. To me, a thief in the night is unnoticed. He comes and he goes and I do not notice him. I am struggling to comprehend the "thief in the night" if that is the case.
Hello Zander,
Many of us are being judged now, Judgement has began at the house of God.
I don't recall where ray said that we are judged as "spiritual beings," and if he did i can only assume he felt confident in his running of the race faithfully and believing that he has finished it. Perhaps in that sense, he could say what you believe him to have said. Again though... we are being judged now and ray was being judged now. Ray was certainly not a spiritual being but human--flesh and blood like the rest of us. I think he was confident that he will be raised with a spiritual body though, as those who endure to the end will be.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I really think in paul's writtings here there is a wealth of information. I think we can understand from it that those who are not judged now, who must endure the lake of fire, who have not "died" to self, cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven in that condition and will not be raised with glorified spiritual bodies. It sounds to me like they will have to endure judgement first, before they can be raised to incorruption and immortality.
Those who will be raised to inherit the kingdom, to reign with Christ and not be hurt by the second death, to judge the world, they are those who are now experiencing judgement;
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Only God knows who will endure to the end, through this judgement, to be raised and reign with Christ.
Does this clarify the resurrection question? I tried my best, again, I'm not the final authority by any means and I welcome the input of others.
Caught up in the air is not a church teaching, what is a church teaching is that we will be "Raptured" out of tribulations. That christians will not have to endure tribulations to enter the Kingdom of heaven. We know this is false because;
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
So there goes that bit of heresy.
I didn't miss the second part, I just believe that the comparison to a thief is not in the fact that He will come and go and you won't even know it but instead having to do with how he returns.
I found a few verse here that might be of interest to you.
Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
1 Thessalonians 5:
1-6 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
God bless,
Alex
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1. When the resurrection happens, are the dead raised as physical bodies or spiritual bodies?
2. When it occurs, what happens to the people already here on earth alive?
Hi zander,
Here is a link to a short paper Ray wrote on "Physical or Spiritual Resurrection Bodies." Hopefully this will help you get a better understanding.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
René
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Thanks.
So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies. Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh. My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol). Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies. I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.
To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:
When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?
Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.
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Thanks.
So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies. Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh. My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol). Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies. I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.
To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:
When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?
Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.
Zander, a lot of your questions about the Resurrection can be answered by reading ray's papers.
Revelation says the "Sea will be no more," while this can be and is indeed a spiritual saying--The sea of humanity will be no more, the carnal God hating sea of humanity. It could also be literal; That is, the sea will vanish to provide room for the billions and billions of humans that will be resurrected. I'm speculating on the second more literal interpretation but I hope you understand that your questions have answers, you just need to study these things and most of them are already explained to you by ray in an eloquent and easy to understand manner.
God be with you,
Alex
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As hard as it is to fathom, a significant portion of all the people who have ever lived are alive today. There's more than enough 'room' for all of us.
Don't ask me how this all is accomplished. I don't even know how Jesus was raised from the dead. I just believe He was. He was raised in a glorified, spiritual, immortal body. Those who are chosen in Him will be raised similarly. Those He raised from the dead in His ministry (and those the Apostles raised), were NOT raised in glorified, immortal bodies. Those raised to future judgement will be raised in a similar state to them. That's a straight answer, even if it's 'wrong'.
That's the best I can do. Be sure and read the link Rene provided.
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the answer to all of your questions could be, trust in God the Father. He alone has all the answers. 8)
claudia
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Hi Alex
What I learned from the towers paper is that peace and salvation for the human race will come but only after a near extinction of humanity.
Ray wrote
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Yes, there will be salvation for the human race, but it will happen only after a great slaughter of humanity to the point that no flesh would remain alive except for God shortening that period of carnage. Are we told elsewhere of such a great slaughter of humanity? Yes we are, back to Isaiah 30:
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Of the day and hour no one knows, of course. But of the season? Well the towers paper is a warning that we are in the season now..
At the end of the paper Ray wrote
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Yah, like somebody's going to listen to this "trite" warning, for: "Who has believed our report?"
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Hi Alex
What I learned from the towers paper is that peace and salvation for the human race will come but only after a near extinction of humanity.
Ray wrote
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Yes, there will be salvation for the human race, but it will happen only after a great slaughter of humanity to the point that no flesh would remain alive except for God shortening that period of carnage. Are we told elsewhere of such a great slaughter of humanity? Yes we are, back to Isaiah 30:
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Of the day and hour no one knows, of course. But of the season? Well the towers paper is a warning that we are in the season now..
At the end of the paper Ray wrote
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Yah, like somebody's going to listen to this "trite" warning, for: "Who has believed our report?"
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Excellent contribution largeli. Thank you for the reminders, its been a while since I read that paper. Ray is right, we may very well not know the day or hour but we, perhaps, know the season. What a find by ray on such minute details!
Well, the only day of slaughter I can think of that humanity could encounter is another world war. That would be a most horrific war considering we live in the age of atomic weapons.
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I don't think Ray made any references to 'knowing the season', and didn't quote the verse about 'days and hours', so don't "credit" Ray with this "understanding", Alex.
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I don't think Ray made any references to 'knowing the season', and didn't quote the verse about 'days and hours', so don't "credit" Ray with this "understanding", Alex.
Oh, I misunderstood! My apologies. Thank you for clarifying. Though I believe it still is an interesting point about days, hours, and seasons.
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I don't think Ray made any references to 'knowing the season', and didn't quote the verse about 'days and hours', so don't "credit" Ray with this "understanding", Alex.
You don't think Ray made any references to knowing the seasons? He may not have said the words "know the season" but saying he didn't reference "knowing the seasons.." What is the towers paper about then?
Is it not a warning that we, who are living in the post 9/11 world are living through the Isaiah 30 prophecy and the end of this age and the ushering in of the next?
Ray may have not used the word "seasons" but how can one read the towers paper and say he never made any references to "knowing the seasons"? The entire paper is a reference to the times/season and a warning that we are in the season. A warning to repent because of the "disaster to come of 'BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS!' " quotations and caps are Rays words. Plus the fact that this paper is the only one on the bt home page with a big picture so every visitor sees it.. Leads me to understand that Ray did want his readers to know the season... Though he did acknowledge that few would take his warning seriously..
He wrote
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As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian Nations will be the first to fall. First God punishes His people, and then He punishes those He used as a club in His hand to punish His people. Few will take this warning seriously—what about YOU?
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Largeli, you are confusing (imo) the troubles facing the USA with the 'end of the age'. As best I can tell, Ray was talking about the US being set to take a fall, not the 'end of the world'.
I'd have to read the paper again to verify what I just said...I don't have time right now. All I wanted to point out is that Ray did not say what you said...YOU did. That is the full extent of the reason for my post to Alex.
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Wow,so many more questions?
Is humanity soon to be extinct? Within the next 10, 20 or 30 years maybe?
I am not sure it makes sense to say that peace on earth will come for humans if most of humanity has been wiped out. Seems a contradiction there.
I'm sure I recall Ray also saying that the world is NOT going to end. I recall him saying this many times because "World is going to end" was such a favourite to his detractors and obviously the church.
Let's keep this thread going, it's very interesting.
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Hi Zander,
I think that God set the example for His way to deal with rebellious mankind and mankind's prideful accomplishments. Much of what we have accomplished since Lord Jesus ascended has led to more and more sin, disease, war etc. Why would we want to preserve most of it?
For example all the great cathedrals and their false teaching. Won't they all need to come down and be covered over with grass? All the luxury ocean liners, sky scrapers and flights to the moon and mars; scrap iron for new bridges & farm implements.
When the Lord Jesus comes to rule he quite likely will start with a much smaller population base; similar to the eight persons who left the ark after the mythical (?) flood.
There is really nothing that men have invented and produced to please themselves that will be needed during the coming Kingdom on earth. We will very possibly get back to nature in its finest sense. Mankind's new goal will be building family values and teaching our children how to live righteously.
Indiana Bob
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Here's Ray's words, Largeli.
THE IMPORTANCE OF SYMBOLISM
Just off Wall Street is the World Trade Center, where the recent Twin Towers symbolized the power and might of America. The Towers were more than just office buildings; they were symbols of the grandest kind. They stood 110 stories each (1,368 ft.), that’s over a quarter mile high. The Towers were seven years in the building, and boasted 10,000,000 sq. ft. (240 acres) of office space where 50,000 people worked. The tenants were diversified, but mostly it was a center for banks, trading companies, manufacturing headquarters, shipping fleets, securities, insurance, financial institutions, and did I mention banks?
The greatest center of financial power in the world is New York City. And the Symbol of Power for that "Great City" was the Twin Towers. Previously it was the Empire State Building: New York is the "Empire State."
When those Twin Tower Symbols fell, it was not just another disaster—it was a symbol of disaster to come of "BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS!"
Let’s see what God’s Word says about this monstrous event of September 11, 2001.
and...
It has been remarked many times that "prophecy is dual." Actually, I believe that many prophecies are multi-layered. That is, they are numerous fulfillment's usually beginning with the physical and literal, moving toward the figurative and spiritual.
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Hi IndianaBob
I don't doubt that a lot of the stuff here on earth needs to start again.
I never thought that "most of humanity" will be gone when Jesus comes, however. That is a revelation. Wow.
Ebola perhaps?
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Hi again Zander,
I'm no predictor of future events and especially not on this forum. I'm just thinking of what seems logical.
There certainly could be many more diseases or earthquakes or war between nations that would reduce the world's population, but putting that aside please consider.
When the Lord Jesus returns to rule from Jerusalem, do you suppose that he will have to continuously, for decades, contend with America, Russia, China, India, Great Britain all retaining their nuclear bombs and intercontinental missiles?
I seriously doubt it!
There may be some semblance of independent nations remaining in the earth for a while, but why would God through Christ permit the threat of nuclear war to hang over the heads of the earth's populations?
Seems to me that those weapons of mass destruction must be dismantled or miraculously disposed of early in the administration of Peace that Lord Jesus will bring.
Also, think of all the international commerce for profit that is not really necessary for humans to have a productive and loving family life.
Consider all the factories that produce weapons of war and provide high paying jobs for the citizens of many advanced nations. Those technical jobs will all be gone or replaced with other tasks that build up rather than tear down and destroy.
Why will we continue to pollute the air we breath with jet airplane exhaust, automobile exhaust etc. etc?? Over 90 percent of air travel is a luxury and why drive for an hour each way to work when we will have more useful goals in our local communities in our daily lives under the administration of peace.
If we check on the results of our selfish and greedy way of living in this century it becomes apparent that changes are needed and Christ will bring them and teach us to appreciate God's way of living in full joy and love toward one another.
Just my view. Indiana Bob
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Hi Zander
The world won't end. It will be redeemed. After a great slaughter of humanity. Such a great slaughter that no flesh would survive if God hadn't cut those days short. But He WILL cut those days short for the elects sake. The bible says that no 'FLESH' would survive unless the days were cut short. FLESH. So we can't spiritualize this prophecy away..
Ray wrote the paper "in the day of great slaughter when the towers fall" to show his readers that he believes the twin towers falling on 9/11 were attested to in the book of Isaiah. And that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are the 'ISRAEL OF GOD'.
I'll quote Ray
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Back in 2002 I gave a short lecture on 9-11. I now wish to make public to our readers the prophetic implications of this colossal disaster, as I believe is attested to in the Book of Isaiah.
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and
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And lest we get puffed up in the realization that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the "ISRAEL OF GOD" in prophecy, let us not forget that God’s Church is made up of the "MANY called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 22:14 & Matt. 7:21-23).
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Ray goes on to say that the punishment from God begins with the Christian nations but it doesn't stop there. God will punish ALL nations after He's punished the Christian nations.
I'll quote Ray
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As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian Nations will be the first to fall. First God punishes His people, and then He punishes those He used as a club in His hand to punish His people. Few will take this warning seriously—what about YOU?
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If anyone thinks this paper is about anything else other than the end of the age and the beginning of the next age.. Then you have to ignore huge chunks of what Ray wrote. One only need read the 1st paragraph of the paper to see that he's talking about the world and not just America.
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"When the Lord Jesus returns to rule from Jerusalem, do you suppose that he will have to continuously, for decades, contend with America, Russia, China, India, Great Britain all retaining their nuclear bombs and intercontinental missiles?
I seriously doubt it!"
Well Jesus is a miracle worker, I am sure he could render nukes quite useless just by thinking about them.
But alas as I read, most of humanity will be wiped off the earth then. Jeez that is some conclusion.
It says Jesus will come at the most unexpected of times. I expect him to come when there is big time tribulation, which is NOT unexpected. So maybe he will come when there is peace already...I don't know.
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There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
notice twice in one verse"I will come on thee"
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There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.
Ray addressed this in his paper, he writes..
"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"
And
"God is describing through Isaiah a great and high wall that will collapse because of a "FALLING BREACH" up on the wall. Now then, who has ever heard of a stone wall or tower falling down because some stones came loose or broke out higher UP on the wall. The breach would merely fall down and have virtually no effect on the wall beneath it. Yet with the World Trade Towers, in both cases, it was a breach high up on the walls that brought down the entire Towers. Just as Isaiah prophesied."
When Isaiah wrote this prophecy he wasn't prophesying about any other towers falling in the history of the world. He was describing the twin towers that collapsed in America on September 11, 2001.
Ray believed it. I believe it.
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Folks,
Another coming fall or crash would be the fall and ultimate crash of the "almighty" dollar; the world's currency.
What will ordinary folks in the U. S. do when most goods and services are closed to the public for lack of payment!??
We don't have to be physically attacked by foreign invaders in order to collapse from within. When the weight of Federal Debt. falls upon the 100,000,000 who actually have jobs and pay taxes the other 230,000,000 will have no one to support them. The Fed can print more money, but inflation will run rampant and bread may cost hundreds of dollars. Remember the example of Germany in 1930 along with the U.S. in our own deep depression.
Only now we have credit cards as our currency and how will you buy food when your credit limit needs to rise to $100,000.00 and your job pays $3,000 per month?
What will happen is that money will be hoarded and will not circulate and businesses that depend upon money [credit] moving or circulating in order to keep the business alive, will DIE.
Doctors and staff need to feed their families too, they cannot work for nothing. Hospitals will close.
Walmart a store that makes billions on a 4% margin of profit will close and lay off the folks who need jobs the most. Trucking companies will not haul food from Mexico and California to the Midwest for nothing, how will we eat? Grow our own food? Be serious!
What happens to people when nation wide panic strikes?
Oh the government will take care of us. Really???
This likely event will destroy more lives than an enemy attack.
Then add the possibility of "ebola" and "enterovirus" and no drugs available at any cost.
We are being warned....and we are not listening!
Just saying, Indiana Bob
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Hello I-Bob
Ebola will be a most useful solution for the reduction of the population, this will allow those who remain to be controlled by the government much easier.
I was reading on this thread I believe, that when Christ returns, He will be dealing with a smaller number of people than there are now..... ( not saying that statement is scriptural )
The way things are going in this world, death may be a blessing although we consider death to be an enemy of the human race.
Anyways, its all in the plan of God, whatever the potter has in mind we must go through that which He planed for our lives . ;)
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There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.
Ray addressed this in his paper, he writes..
"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"
And
"God is describing through Isaiah a great and high wall that will collapse because of a "FALLING BREACH" up on the wall. Now then, who has ever heard of a stone wall or tower falling down because some stones came loose or broke out higher UP on the wall. The breach would merely fall down and have virtually no effect on the wall beneath it. Yet with the World Trade Towers, in both cases, it was a breach high up on the walls that brought down the entire Towers. Just as Isaiah prophesied."
When Isaiah wrote this prophecy he wasn't prophesying about any other towers falling in the history of the world. He was describing the twin towers that collapsed in America on September 11, 2001.
Comment as Ray would often say "OH Really"!
Ray believed it. I believe it.
Yes Sir, Isaiah said that the towers of Greed,Corruption,Envy,Deceit, Lust and Pride,would come down however,he also said, these towers exist only in a certain population group, namely Americans, specifically "New Yorkers".
Don't forget to slip "Twin" in there, perhaps next to it add in 11 Sept. ;)
Now that Twin towers have come down, we can comfortably delete this prophecy from Isaiah, that is what you are saying, yes ?
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I was reading on this thread I believe that when Christ returns He will be dealing with a smaller number of people than there is now.
There are comments made in threads that are not always supported by scripture. Please be careful in repeating or interpreting statements that could be misleading to others.
René
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There have been many towers that have fallen since this prophecy non more so than our own towers in our unregenerate minds.
Ray addressed this in his paper, he writes..
"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"
And
"God is describing through Isaiah a great and high wall that will collapse because of a "FALLING BREACH" up on the wall. Now then, who has ever heard of a stone wall or tower falling down because some stones came loose or broke out higher UP on the wall. The breach would merely fall down and have virtually no effect on the wall beneath it. Yet with the World Trade Towers, in both cases, it was a breach high up on the walls that brought down the entire Towers. Just as Isaiah prophesied."
When Isaiah wrote this prophecy he wasn't prophesying about any other towers falling in the history of the world. He was describing the twin towers that collapsed in America on September 11, 2001.
Comment as Ray would often say "OH Really"!
Ray believed it. I believe it.
Yes Sir, Isaiah said that the towers of Greed,Corruption,Envy,Deceit, Lust and Pride,would come down however,he also said, these towers exist only in a certain population group, namely Americans, specifically "New Yorkers".
Don't forget to slip "Twin" in there, perhaps next to it add in 11 Sept. ;)
Now that Twin towers have come down, we can comfortably delete this prophecy from Isaiah, that is what you are saying, yes ?
No that's not what I'm saying... But you already knew that.
If deleting scriptures is your thing then delete away! That's not what I said nor is it what Ray said. Rays paper was a warning and he knew many people wouldn't believe it.
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"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"
So we can delete this, now that Isaiah's prophecy has taken place ?
1 cor 13 v8 - the gift that Isaiah had, is now done away with since 2002? that is concerning this particular prophecy.
Once a prophecy is fulfilled we no longer have use of it?? hope you can see what Im saying ...
I believe the truth is ...
Christ is the fulfillment, he brings our towers down,these towers are huge obstacles in our growth (idols) and they must come down. So you could reference the literal carnage that happened on 11 Sept to what is spiritually happening to those elected - like I said there have been many towers that have come down Literally,Its a great wonder how the tower of pizza still stands ;)
"tear down this temple and in/within three days, I will raise it"
Jesus was not referring to the literal ,Physical temple.
Rome however, did bring it down many years later (I stand corrected on this one) It is still awaiting real estate to be built again.
by My saying "that is what you mean ,Yes?" Im saying do you think that prophecy made 3000 + years ago only manifested in 2002 ?or is there a greater meaning and has it been manifesting in folks throughout time?
All of these Towers point to Jesus, Starting with The tower of Babel I believe these towers symbolize mans works to gain access to the kingdom, (going to church,tithing,doing good,being humble,obeying the commands),which we know cannot happen,one has to enter by the gate, one cannot "jump the wall"
These towers that came down on 11 Sept represented Wealth and prosperity and power, literally [An obvious trait of the false church] - they also, now that they are down,seem to have represented Greed and Lust and deceit .[An equally obvious trait of the false church]
Spiritually these things are in us and they must out.
Which tower is next ...the one in Nigeria ??
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Hello Ian,
I see what your saying, its all quite profound to me . Thanks man. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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"No other tower or wall collapse fits Isaiah's prophecy"
So we can delete this, now that Isaiah's prophecy has taken place ?
1 cor 13 v8 - the gift that Isaiah had, is now done away with since 2002? that is concerning this particular prophecy.
Once a prophecy is fulfilled we no longer have use of it?? hope you can see what Im saying ...
I believe the truth is ...
Christ is the fulfillment, he brings our towers down,these towers are huge obstacles in our growth (idols) and they must come down. So you could reference the literal carnage that happened on 11 Sept to what is spiritually happening to those elected - like I said there have been many towers that have come down Literally,Its a great wonder how the tower of pizza still stands ;)
"tear down this temple and in/within three days, I will raise it"
Jesus was not referring to the literal ,Physical temple.
Rome however, did bring it down many years later (I stand corrected on this one) It is still awaiting real estate to be built again.
by My saying "that is what you mean ,Yes?" Im saying do you think that prophecy made 3000 + years ago only manifested in 2002 ?or is there a greater meaning and has it been manifesting in folks throughout time?
All of these Towers point to Jesus, Starting with The tower of Babel I believe these towers symbolize mans works to gain access to the kingdom, (going to church,tithing,doing good,being humble,obeying the commands),which we know cannot happen,one has to enter by the gate, one cannot "jump the wall"
These towers that came down on 11 Sept represented Wealth and prosperity and power, literally [An obvious trait of the false church] - they also, now that they are down,seem to have represented Greed and Lust and deceit .[An equally obvious trait of the false church]
Spiritually these things are in us and they must out.
Which tower is next ...the one in Nigeria ??
Isaiahs prophecy hasn't taken place as much as it is still taking place.. I think? I mean.. Isaiah 30 is about the end of the age and beginning of a new. Its not a single event. I think what Ray was warning about was that the towers falling on 9/11 was attested to in Isaiah but it was a "symbol of disaster to come".
I am only speaking my thoughts now and I don't know whether or not my thoughts are right.. but I think Rays paper was a warning that the time period of transition from one age to the next as prophesied in Isaiah 30 is unfolding now.. You show how the "towers" are many things in our minds/spirit. I see what you're saying. As Ray said in the paper, prophecy is dual and often multi-layered, so could it be that both perspectives are true?
When Ray said no other towers fit the prophecy, he was talking about towers coming down due to a "high breach" right? How does that square with towers of greed, lust, etc.? And have there been other physical towers that collapsed from a breach high up?
You mention geographical location as if the twin towers falling only affected America.. It has effected the entire world and still does more and more every day I would say. And Ray addressed that point in the paper also, saying that God will judge the Christian nations first, but it wont end there and God will judge the rest of the nations too, but only after He has used them as a club.. Just not first because judgment begins with the house of God and the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the Israel of God.
What about "the day of great slaughter" is this in our minds also? Doesn't scripture say that, no flesh would remain had God not cut short those days, speaking of this same transition period? So isn't this physical? Or at least dual with a physical fulfillment since we know prophecy is dual?
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Folks,
Another coming fall or crash would be the fall and ultimate crash of the "almighty" dollar; the world's currency.
What will ordinary folks in the U. S. do when most goods and services are closed to the public for lack of payment!??
We don't have to be physically attacked by foreign invaders in order to collapse from within. When the weight of Federal Debt. falls upon the 100,000,000 who actually have jobs and pay taxes the other 230,000,000 will have no one to support them. The Fed can print more money, but inflation will run rampant and bread may cost hundreds of dollars. Remember the example of Germany in 1930 along with the U.S. in our own deep depression.
Only now we have credit cards as our currency and how will you buy food when your credit limit needs to rise to $100,000.00 and your job pays $3,000 per month?
What will happen is that money will be hoarded and will not circulate and businesses that depend upon money [credit] moving or circulating in order to keep the business alive, will DIE.
Doctors and staff need to feed their families too, they cannot work for nothing. Hospitals will close.
Walmart a store that makes billions on a 4% margin of profit will close and lay off the folks who need jobs the most. Trucking companies will not haul food from Mexico and California to the Midwest for nothing, how will we eat? Grow our own food? Be serious!
What happens to people when nation wide panic strikes?
Oh the government will take care of us. Really???
This likely event will destroy more lives than an enemy attack.
Then add the possibility of "ebola" and "enterovirus" and no drugs available at any cost.
We are being warned....and we are not listening!
Just saying, Indiana Bob
Hi bob. I agree with your assessment but my question is what is anyone supposed to do with a warning? Your post here and also Rays paper are warnings but with no solution.
Some are hearing the warnings but what are they supposed to do with it? The only thing I read in the towers paper as far as what to do about the warning is where Ray says..
If America doesn’t return to God and repent of her national and individual sins, America is going down, and nothing is going to stop it. Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and our great seers fiddle their messages of "deceit and SMOOTH things," while America is ready to go down in flames. ‘Me thinks’ Washington will also fiddle while America burns.
He gives instructions for 'America' to repent as the way to avoid the judgement that he's warning about. So are we just supposed to repent? Then what? Since America as a whole has not repented nor changed course, the scenario you posted or judgement in another form will continue. Do we 'look up' when it all hits the fan, knowing our redemption is near? Should we pray that we may be found worthy to escape the wrath of His judgments? Should we be preparing our hearts and spirits to endure whatever lies ahead? Should we examine ourselves day and night so that when His judgments are upon us it will be cause for excitement and not fear? So that we can approach His coming with confidence and not hide ourselves like Adam and Eve in the garden?
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This Topic is an example of what happens when the Scriptures are disregarded regarding the need for two witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth.
Does anyone have at least two Scriptures to back up any opinions or statements?
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by My saying "that is what you mean ,Yes?" Im saying do you think that prophecy made 3000 + years ago only manifested in 2002 ?or is there a greater meaning and has it been manifesting in folks throughout time?
To answer your second question,
Perhaps throughout time and dealing with the elect spiritually. Sure I accept that.
To answer your first question,
Ray certainly thought so. There's a whole section on this in his paper. He wrote that this prophecy was not for Isaiah's day but for a future day.. The end of the age specifically. The time for the elect to be judged first has to end sometime and the time for the rest of the world to be judged has to begin sometime. I think Rays towers paper shows we are in that time.
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Largely,I hear you and I believe that this pointed to a future event as most of the "shadows" do In fact every single word must be handled with great care .
I must admit I have only glanced over the towers paper ....as I kinda said to myself or felt, this did not line up with Rays teaching in comparison to other papers he wrote, I really felt this understanding or interpretation kinda strange...I will make an effort to go thru it properly however if I get disturbed by somthing I read I dont usually continue.
I can only say what I used to experience in the word and what I experience now.
In a particular church I went to everyone used to get upbeat on prosperity scriptures (including me ) I mean they all in one accord started speaking in tongues ,Yes Lord ,come now, this was on hearing scriptures like I will surely bless you ,I am coming to help you they would read scriptures in Duet 28 an and you had to parrot them (confess them aloud )this would go something like this, "I decree I am blessed in the basket I am blessed in the barn, blessed in the city blessed in the country yes God Said It so WE ARE BLESSED Hallelujah",
Yes AND amen GOD DID SAY THESE THINGS LITERALLY.
Likewise healing, he (Jesus) was sickly so we could be healed... he took all our sickness on himself now we walk free complete "sick free" I used to declare this..... even over Ray at one time (then John sorted me out) Not realising that the biggest cancer is spiritual cancer ...
>>> Now,present day, to me.... these prophetic scriptures mean something different when you line up the new testament they are spiritual blessings instead of great literal wealth,If you have clothes on your back and some food every day be ye happy/content see what I mean?If one is sick he/she must go to the elders :those who have been thru more than what I have {and the prayer of faith would take care of that spiritual sickness} "Physician heal yourself" takes on a different meaning
So yes the physical/literal towers came down... seeing that you were led to read this paper perhaps you are going to notice some "Spiritual" towers in your life, coming down.
God Bless
I added this below in response to your questions,
Regarding the day of great slaughter ...this pertains to the enemies of God or those things that are in Gods children that are preventing them gaining access to the kingdom - these things (the unbelief,the spiritual adulteries, the spiritual pansy (timid) in us are going to be slaughtered.... or it could at this time, in your mind, be a huge massacre in a huge field with bodies and limbs everywhere ;)
'When Ray said no other towers fit the prophecy, he was talking about towers coming down due to a "high breach" right? How does that square with towers of greed, lust, etc.? And have there been other physical towers that collapsed from a breach high up?'
I think Ray would admit that this is spiritual as well - one could say "meat not milk" lust of the flesh and of the eyes and Pride of life are not acceptable to our God look up in 1 john ,these represent a Breach even a high breach- spiritual fornication ,adultery,fear (these could be "lukewarm" traits)-
We however are commanded NOT TO FEAR - or FEAR NOT. why because "unless the Lord builds the house The labourers (tower builders) labour in vain"we cannot do anything about it, God will build his temple His WAY...so I now need faith to have the trust in God, that these things happening in me or to me, that are seemingly disastrous are in fact for good not evil - to see this, takes faith.
The flesh of kings-our high minded Carnal state's, will surely be given to the Fowl of the air (dark forces in High places)these things will be devoured and Our God uses the adversary to do this.
You, Gods elect, will see these things happen in your lives and in your family, if God is choosing you - "for he is my servant and I will show him how much he must suffer for my name sake"
Please note that we have a Creator who is above the "creature" we need to worship the Creator he will shew us great things, I speak as I hear and have the scripture as a witness in any statements I have made
You and your house hold shall be saved...When the towers fall.
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Ian I was wrong when I said that when Isaiah prophesied the towers falling that he was talking about none other than the twin towers. That's not what Ray wrote or meant. I was mistaken. My bad for any confusion.
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Ian I was wrong when I said that when Isaiah prophesied the towers falling that he was talking about none other than the twin towers. That's not what Ray wrote or meant. I was mistaken. My bad for any confusion.
Hey Largeli, no sweat we all learning
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Thanks.
So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies. Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh. My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol). Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies. I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.
To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:
When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?
Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.
Zander, a lot of your questions about the Resurrection can be answered by reading ray's papers.
Revelation says the "Sea will be no more," while this can be and is indeed a spiritual saying--The sea of humanity will be no more, the carnal God hating sea of humanity. It could also be literal; That is, the sea will vanish to provide room for the billions and billions of humans that will be resurrected. I'm speculating on the second more literal interpretation but I hope you understand that your questions have answers, you just need to study these things and most of them are already explained to you by ray in an eloquent and easy to understand manner.
God be with you,
Alex
ok Alex I see that if you need the Book of Revelation to be literal then for you its literal?........but if anybody else needs it to be literal then you jump all over them and tell them who they are using scriptures and you yourself contradict what you say, lol I don't get it...Quote from: Mike Gagne on October 25, 2014, 02:01:00 AM
? The number of those who are sealed , 144.000 , does LRay talk on this number? Is that the number of how many are the elect? Is this a literal number? Can numbers be symbols? If we can't add or take away would that make this number mean what it says 144.000? Can we get the truth of this number from the word?
Hey Mike,
This is not literal. Remember revelations was "SIGNIFIED" to John and that Christ's words are "SPIRIT."
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.".... Okay Alex I won't use the scriptures to say anything you, P.S Alex it is the Book of Revelation, not revelations!! Oh ya Jesus said to pray for those who persecute you, May God bless you Alex and his will be done in your life!!
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Thanks.
So as I see it then at the moment, we are raised as PHYSICAL bodies. Strange, as I always thought I recalled Ray saying that being judged as a spirit, you could still be judged as spiritual flesh. My spirit is clearly still flesh, so whether I am judged in the physical or the spiritual I am still judged as flesh (hate that word lol). Then there is Ray saying he will never see his physical body anymore after he dies. I am sure Ray was not arrogant enough to assume he was one of the elect, at least he never came across that way.
To be fair the resurrection poses a raft of other questions for me:
When Christ arrives, what happens to physical people - believers and non?
When the dead are resurrected - and there are millions/billions? of them - how do they fit into this planet all of a sudden?
What exactly happens here once Jesus is here?
Many questions but I am not expecting straightforward answers.
Zander, a lot of your questions about the Resurrection can be answered by reading ray's papers.
Revelation says the "Sea will be no more," while this can be and is indeed a spiritual saying--The sea of humanity will be no more, the carnal God hating sea of humanity. It could also be literal; That is, the sea will vanish to provide room for the billions and billions of humans that will be resurrected. I'm speculating on the second more literal interpretation but I hope you understand that your questions have answers, you just need to study these things and most of them are already explained to you by ray in an eloquent and easy to understand manner.
God be with you,
Alex
ok Alex I see that if you need the Book of Revelation to be literal then for you its literal?........but if anybody else needs it to be literal then you jump all over them and tell them who they are using scriptures and you yourself contradict what you say, lol I don't get it...Quote from: Mike Gagne on October 25, 2014, 02:01:00 AM
? The number of those who are sealed , 144.000 , does LRay talk on this number? Is that the number of how many are the elect? Is this a literal number? Can numbers be symbols? If we can't add or take away would that make this number mean what it says 144.000? Can we get the truth of this number from the word?
Hey Mike,
This is not literal. Remember revelations was "SIGNIFIED" to John and that Christ's words are "SPIRIT."
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.".....
Okay Alex I won't use the scriptures to say anything you,
P.S Alex it is the Book of Revelation, not revelations!!
Hmm, I sense a lot of hostility comming from you mike and I can't figure out why.
I don't even think you asked me a question in the post you made so I'm not sure what to say to you other than perhaps you mis-interpreted my original response to Zander?
I'll bold and highlight something that I emphasized.
Notice that I admitted I was speculating and truth be told I don't like the literal interpretations of revelation for reasons you pointed out through quoting a responce I made to you: That revelation was signified to John and that Christ's words are spirit.
You are absolutely correct in saying that it is "revelation" and not "revelationS." I suppose its an old habit that hasn't died yet.
In Christ,
Alex
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Rom 14:3 The person who will eat anything is not to despise the one who doesn't; while the one who eats only vegetables is not to pass judgment on the one who will eat anything; for God has accepted that person. ;)
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It seems to me that just as the church want to see everything literal, but we don't want to just see everything spiritual either. Yes the parables that Christ spoke of portray a higher spiritual meaning than just the literal story, but this literal world is very real and plays an important part in God's plan. I think we can get so caught up in looking for the spiritual aspect of things that we may forget that the physical comes first.
1Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
What I'm trying to say is that this natural world was made to serve a very grand purpose and it is a very delicate balance to see the spiritual teachings in the physical... but there is still the physical/natural first.
One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
It's all perfectly planned and there is no doubt that it will all work out in an organized way, without any confusion. I think we all will be amazed to see how everything will be done in such a perfect way to meet every need and show how awesome our God is.
1Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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1Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
Hi Kat
I'm inclined to believe that this statement of Paul is describing the order of things where-
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. ....
and
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Tells us how it is.
If one is, for instance,to stay carnal , one will not comprehend the truth (enter the kingdom)
What are your thoughts ?
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Hi Ian,
If one is, for instance,to stay carnal , one will not comprehend the truth (enter the kingdom)
It is true that while in the flesh there will remain a degree of carnality, as Paul spoke of.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
But it is through this physical flesh that we experience first (eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), and yes the carnal person has no spiritual life. It's all just a temporary existence, like all animal life "...What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (Jas 4:14).
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
It is while we are yet carnal physical being that we must repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. But as Paul was saying we will not reach perfection while in this flesh.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
It is while in this physical body (now for the elect, in the next age for the rest) that we learn what sin is and through overcoming the carnality of the flesh that the 'new man/woman' comes to life in us and begins the process of being put right with God.
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with Him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection;
v. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Rom 6:7 for He that hath died is justified from sin.
Rom 6:8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him;
Physical life comes first, carnality is a must to learn about and experience evil. When God starts His work in us we begin to overcome this carnal flesh, but only by the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) indwelling. "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," now the elect have only been given a guarantee/promise/earnest..
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of His glory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I agree with most of your post and appreciate it. But I am now uncertain who will rule with Christ during the Millennium. We know the resurrected saints will be with Him as kings and priests. Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh? Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?
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Hi microlink,
Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh? Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?
I thought I had included this Scripture, well here it is now.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
We know that those who died before the resurrection of Christ will not be in the first resurrection, those few that are will be given glorified spiritual bodies.
1Cor 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
But only the few with the Spirit of Christ indwelling at His rreturn will receive this most grand of all human hopes. All those before Christ who died in faith, that we see in Hebrews 11, will not receive this at Christ's return, they never knew the Christ of the NT, will not partake in the promise.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise,
v.40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
So what are we to think by this next Scripture that Christ spoke?
Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IN the kingdom of heaven.
Well the kingdom - New Jerusalem will "come down out of heaven," this is the elect, it descends to the earth where they will be the spiritual rulers with Christ on the earth.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
So what is Christ saying about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being 'in' the kingdom? Maybe the physical aspect of it's government? Well there is Scripture about some being cast into "outer darkness," so maybe those that died in 'faith' are not cast out of the kingdom/government of God. Certainly it's a big difference than the elect, but still these were those that knew God and faithfully served Him in the OT. Certainly all in the second resurrection will into the LoF, that is the judgment of Christ and the elect, as it says "that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I agree with most of your post and appreciate it. But I am now uncertain who will rule with Christ during the Millennium. We know the resurrected saints will be with Him as kings and priests. Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh? Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?
Hi Microlink,
Ray pointed out that King David died an unrepentant sinner as his final words were "kill my enemies and make it bloody."
1 King 2:5-9 "Moreover thou knowest also what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, and what he did to the two captains of the hosts of Israel, unto Abner the son of Ner, and unto Amasa the son of Jether, whom he slew, and shed the blood of war in peace, and put the blood of war upon his girdle that was about his loins, and in his shoes that were on his feet.Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace.But shew kindness unto the sons of Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be of those that eat at thy table: for so they came to me when I fled because of Absalom thy brother. And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the Lord, saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword. Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. "
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
We also have several different pieces of scripture in the new testament that show us that the prophets and kings would not be made perfect without us (the gentiles).
Hebrews 11:13 These [The patriarchs and prophets of old] all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 "And these [The patriarchs and prophets of old] all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
Romans 11:24-26 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
We are also told that when Sodom is returned to her former estate then will Israel too be returned to her former estate.
Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Jerusalem] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."
Ezekiel: 61-63 "Then you shall remember your ways, and be ashamed, when you shall receive your sisters, your elder [Samaria] and your younger [SODOM]: and I will give them [Samaria and Sodom] unto you for daughters, but not by your covenant. And I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall KNOW [for the first time] that I am the Lord: That you may remember, and be confounded, and never open your mouth any more because of your shame, when I am PACIFIED [make atonement, to pardon, to placate, to cover, to condone] TOWARD THEE [Jerusalem AND her sisters, Samaria and Sodom] for all that you have done, saith the Lord God."
Ezekiel 37:1-6 "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."
Ezekiel 37:11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:[/b] behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts."
Only those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death:
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 21:8 "...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Those that overcome are those that endure unto the end. The ones that are saved.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
There are many more scriptures as well that can be added to this, its one big circle!
Hope this helps some.
God bless,
Alex
Edit: I made this post while Kat was posting, sorry if there is some repeated information here. Was just trying to help :)
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A side note on the scripture John 6:63.
Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'
on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth
nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are
spirit, and [they] are life. [John 6:63]
Does our flesh profit nothing? Was the design of mans physical body and his experiences to mean nothing?
[Ray's reply]
Sometimes familiar words have a way of prejudicing our minds. In a Scripture such as these where our Lord states that "the flesh PROFITS nothing," and we feel immediately that, why sure it does, isn't that the whole purpose of our physical life, existence, and experience? To be PROFITED by the whole thing? Yes, but that is not specifically what Jesus is stating.
Jesus did not say that there is no value to our physical experience. What He said was that the experience itself is NOT THE PROFIT ITSELF.
I am sure that most read this verse thinking Jesus said this: "...the flesh PRODUCES nothing." As though nothing valuable comes out of our experience in the flesh, when that is decidedly not what Jesus is saying.
The word translated "profits" is from the Greek word "apheleo" and has a primary meaning of "BENEFIT." It is virtually always translated with a negative connotation:
"what is a man PROFITED, if he gain the whole world..." (Matt. 16:26
"Pilate sat that he could PREVAIL nothing..." (Matt. 27:24).
"and was nothing BETTERED, but rather..." (Mark 5:26).
"...the flesh PROFITS nothing...." (John 6:63).
"Perceive you how you PREVAIL nothing.." (John 12:19).
"For what is a man ADVANTAGED...." (Luke 9:25).
"...it PROFITS me nothing..." (I Cor. 13:3).
"...the word preached did not PROFIT them" (Heb. 4:2).
"...which did not PROFIT them...." (Heb. 13:9).
Next notice that even Christ Himself does not profit some:
"Christ shall PROFIT you nothing...." (Gal. 5:2).
And so what Jesus is clearly stating here is that the FLESH (or any of the other things mentioned above including Christ Himself), are not in and by themselves a BENEFIT (profit) to us until others facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS.
This is why Jesus asked: "What is a man PROFITED if he shall gain the whole world [lots of flesh], and lose his own soul?" (Matt. 16:25).
There is no PROFIT/BENEFIT in the flesh itself, only what comes OUT OF IT. And once you are OUT OF IT (as out of the world), the world is of NO profit/benefit to you.
Maybe our biggest spiritual example of this is: "Come OUT of her, My people...." (Rev. 18:4). If there is "profit" to be had from being IN Babylon, then perhaps we should all go BACK IN? No, Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...." The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world.
Hope this helps your understanding,
God be with you,
Ray
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A side note on the scripture John 6:63.
Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'
on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM
And so what Jesus is clearly stating here is that the FLESH (or any of the other things mentioned above including Christ Himself), are not in and by themselves a BENEFIT (profit) to us until others facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS.
That is a pretty bold statement,if I read it according to my understanding of the word,seeing we are complete..... only in him.
(Or is he saying we have need of that (death/flesh)experience,in order to obtain kingdom mentality)
Carnality is absolutely and unequivocally, Death (NO PROFIT) or do you think he is saying death, leads to profit, and is the only factor?
What other factors are needed?
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Hi Ian,
Well think about the church, they have Christ, so to speak, but what profit/benefit does that produce for them? Notice the last comment from Ray there... "Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...."The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world."
I put in bold and underlined what the benefit of this life is ultimately producing, being "IN Christ." And this next comment from Ray explains why... "There is no PROFIT/BENEFIT in the flesh itself, only what comes OUT OF IT. And once you are OUT OF IT (as out of the world), the world is of NO profit/benefit to you."
The church is worldly and they know 'of' Christ, but are not 'in' Him, the rest of the world have not even reached that far. So I think the "other facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS" that Ray mentioned would be when the Holy Spirit becomes indwelling and then the spiritual lessons begin for a person, not before from these life experiences. I think then we can even reflect on past life experiences and learn from them too.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ray is simply in simple language explaining the meaning of this verse and this word "profit" (and by extension, what it doesn't mean). No gobbledegook.
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There is a spanner in the works here,either the flesh profits Nothing, or it profits, I cant kinda make up my own explanation, there are no "grey areas"
I notice an unregenerate David, found benefits (in the Lord) psalm 103:2 so perhaps the transition process from the Flesh is in fact a Benefit.Yet his(Davids) then state,is, of no profit yet, he sees profit.
The Physical body (no profit) becomes a spiritual temple (profit)
Im not being difficult ,
Ian
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Hello Ian,
we start off carnal and die carnal don’t we, does anyone get converted in this age? When we see Christ as He is then we shall be like Him.
Rom 11:32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do; for I don't do what I would like to do, but instead I do what I hate.
Rom 7:19 I don't do the good I want to do; instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.
Rom 12:2 Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God---what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect.
Rom, 12;2 says for us not to be conformed to this world, then it says, but let God transform us inwardly by a complete change of our mind.
Is it not a ongoing process of becoming spiritual and its completion is after the resurrection for God’s elect only then the rest of humanity will learn righteousness?
My question is when one of God’s elect dies doesn’t he or she still have carnality residing within them ? So, what does God do at the resurrection to make us completely spiritual?
What we do know about God’s elect is Rom 8:1 There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus. ???
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Hi Rick! I found these scriptures...And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart, so they will obey my decrees and regulations. Then they will truly be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20 NLT)......Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV).... It seems to me that in the resurrection God gives us a cleansing, a new heart and a new spirit that causes us to walk in his statutes!! Maybe that's were we could fit in this scripture...Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:46 KJV) 😊
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What we do know about God’s elect is Rom 8:1 There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus. ???
Keep reading in in Romans 8 and it explains how/why there is "no condemnation" for the elect in this life, the Spirit of Christ indwelling has given them spiritual Life.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
My question is when one of God’s elect dies doesn’t he or she still have carnality residing within them ? So, what does God do at the resurrection to make us completely spiritual?
Well as long as we are flesh and blood we certainly are subject to the pulls of the carnal flesh... yes the Spirit indwelling is the Helper/Comforter to teach and train and prepare the elect. But there certainly is a tremendous change for the elect at resurrection.
1Cor 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
v. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
v. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
The elect will be given a "spiritual body" no longer subject to the pulls of the flesh. They will also be "raised in glory," made perfect and become one/united with Christ and the Father and then have the Spirit without measure like Christ does (John 3:34). What a incomprehensible glorious state of being, as Paul put it so well.
1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
v. 10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Hi Mike,
Actually I believe that is what happens in this life now for the elect, that is dying to self (1Co 15:31), it is to take on the mind of Christ now.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Eph 4:22 For you ought to put off the old man (according to your way of living before) who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.
v. 24 And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.
And it will be the same process in the next age of dying to self first while in the physical body, that is their second death (Rev 20:6), then and only then will the world learn righteousness.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Mike,
Exactly Mike, that’s how I understand it to be, when God gives us a new heart and a new spirit and until then, we are carnal minded.
Thanks Mike for bringing out those scripture,
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them
And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart, so they will obey my decrees and regulations.
.Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
These scriptures you brought out are awesome, it only confirms to me what I’ve started to believe from what I been learning here.
I’m not responsible for what I do, I’ve never made an uncaused choice but I am accountable to God for the things I do because I enjoyed the pleasure of them.
I’m a carnal minded person learning wonderful truths of our God because God called me and caused me to learn His truths. In this life I will always have a carnal mind, I pray to God as time passes by my mind becomes less natural and more spiritual,
Like God says, ( A new heart also will I give you ) when God does that for me, I’ll no longer be carnal but spiritual.
Thanks once again Mike, God bless you. :)
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Hi Kat! I was thinking that it would be in the ressurection ! I can look back and see how God has changed my heart! And I also see that everyday there are judgements for me, every time I do what is not right I am held accountable! It seems like it will never end. it starts right when I leave the house and doesn't end until I sleep and sometimes He wakes me up and it's starts again! He constantly has my mind on what I am doing wrong! I see the beast in me and I wander does he totally destroy it before I die? Can God totally change my thinking to be Christ like in this life time? I new Paul said he finished his race! LRay said at some point it just stop! I think Paul said that some time after some 17 yrs! I don't recall hearing LRay stating how long it when on for! Well I know there is a process and I believe in my heart that the carnal mind will not inherit the Kingdom of God and that I live in this natural body and it will die and I will get a spiritual body and all the benifits that go with it! I guess that circumcision by Christ will be complete before I die! Thank you Kat your answer always get me thinking! 😀
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Hi Rick! I also see what Kat is saying! I used those scriptures because I sometimes think that it is impossible to change my evil heart! But as I look back I can see some fruit of the spirit in me, that is comparing to how I was. Yes sometimes I think it is impossible to change the carnal mind because it is enmity to God, but I have to remember that are God is a cunsuming fire that burns out the carnal mind. Sorry Rick if I have caused confusion, I think what I am saying is that it's hard for me to see God doing this now,because I fall short so often! I guess if I look back then I can see that God has given me a new heart now! I am not the same! Thank God for Lrays teaching us to look back so we can see the spiritual! I see now that yes I am a new creation in Christ! The old me is really being destroyed/cleansed. And I am trying to do His statutes! Well this certainly has help me and I hope it helps Rick God bless you 😊
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Ray said often that sin should not REIGN in us.
Romans 6:11-13 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."
The spirit of God indwelling compels us, inspires us, moves us forward, to be dead to the body and alive in the spirit that we would not serve the pulls of the flesh. So then we crucify the body and the carnal mind with it.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Romans 6:1-12 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."
So to Kat's point,
Romans 8:6-7 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep Seated Hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus"
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
In Christ,
Alex
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Hello Ian,
we start off carnal and die carnal don’t we, does anyone get converted in this age? When we see Christ as He is then we shall be like Him.
Rom 11:32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do; for I don't do what I would like to do, but instead I do what I hate.
Rom 7:19 I don't do the good I want to do; instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.
Rom 12:2 Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God---what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect.
Rom, 12;2 says for us not to be conformed to this world, then it says, but let God transform us inwardly by a complete change of our mind.
Is it not a ongoing process of becoming spiritual and its completion is after the resurrection for God’s elect only then the rest of humanity will learn righteousness?
My question is when one of God’s elect dies doesn’t he or she still have carnality residing within them ? So, what does God do at the resurrection to make us completely spiritual?
What we do know about God’s elect is Rom 8:1 There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus. ???
Rick... you asked; Does anyone get converted in this life?
Yes, this is what Christ said to the apostle Peter. Peter did just that after Christ sent him the holy spirit on pentacost.
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
And..
John 3:3 Verily, verily I say unto you, except a man be born again… (means spiritually begotten, spiritually converted, spiritually regenerated)… he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Well, We are beggotten again.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Ray also says this in one of his audios "When came around Pentecost time though, a whole bunch of them were converted, about 120 of them. But Christ was leading them up to that. He’s probably leading some of us up to that." http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
In Christ,
Alex
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Thats what Im thinking, all this knowledge and stuff we glean is of No value (benefit) unless we are converted -
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Paul didn't start his ministry until a least 17 yrs after his conversion, and by his writings we can see that he also struggled along with his carnal nature! At conversion you are not changed completely being you have a carnal mind and the flesh to deal with! That's why Jesus comes to us and begins a work in us! It's seems that it took Paul 17 yrs to come to the point where he could say that he finished his race! I can look back and I now know when my conversion happened and I am not the same wicked man I was! I can see the different or new man growing, here a little, there a little ,precept upon precept! And when your in this process it seems like it might never end. Well there's hope for me and that hope is Christ in me the hope of Glory! So here is a question, has anybody been converted and not struggle with the carnal mind acting up and getting in the way of the new creature.....P.S If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10 KJV). I never said sin reigns in me! Anyhow have a good day everyone!
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Hi Mike,
Yesterday I was responding to Rick's question about after we die and the first resurrection, which your response to that is what I believe happens before the elect are resurrected.
Hi Kat! I was thinking that it would be in the ressurection ! I can look back and see how God has changed my heart!
Now today that first comment in your reply "I was thinking that it would be in the resurrection"... you do know that is not in this life, right? All that you say after that applies to what happens in this life for the elect. The first resurrection is when the elect that have died are raised out of the grave and those elect still living join them and are given new spiritual bodies and meet Christ in the air to return and rule on the earth. So my comment were directed toward the next age. Just trying to make it clear where I coming from in my replies.
Paul didn't start his ministry until a least 17 yrs after his conversion, and by his writings we can see that he also struggled along with his carnal nature! At conversion you are not changed completely being you have a carnal mind and the flesh to deal with! That's why Jesus comes to us and begins a work in us! It's seems that it took Paul 17 yrs to come to the point where he could say that he finished his race!
This post where you say "it took Paul 17 yrs to come to the point where he could say that he finished his race."
Yes, when Paul made this statement he was writing from a Roman prison, he was awaiting death, being about to die he knew he had lived his life as a total sacrifice for the sake of the truth, right from when he was knocked down by the blinding light that was Jesus Christ. He knew his work was done "I have finished the race," and he had been faithful "I have kept the faith." So I guess he had no doubt after all he had been through, that he would remain faithful in the last days that he had.
So it's not so much that he or anybody can rest assured they are an elect, accept maybe like Paul when he already knew he was faithful right up to the end.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Alex,
Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding is that anyone who gets converted lives sin free, if king David was converted he would of never said ( make it bloody ).
When God gives us a new heart we then become converted as much as I can tell, when I was in so called Christendom, I was asked more than once ( are you born again ) has the resurrection happen, and I don’t know about it. Lol
If someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for that one to sin because they are converted but if they say they are converted and sin then their actions speak louder than words.
I agree God is calling out for Himself a people but if God converts people in this age then what need of God’s grace have we ?
What need of faith have we? But we hope for these things but if we have them already then why would someone hope for what they already have ?
We are involved in an on going process in this age but if we are converted the process is pointless.
God said, let us be making man in our image, when the man becomes converted he is in the image of God.
Thanks for your input Alex, maybe you see more than I but these are my thoughts. :)
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Hi Kat! Yes I know when the resurrection is for those who will be the elect! Yes I know that all that happens to those who might be the elect! I also believe that you won't be completely new until that resurrection.....Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Corinthians 15:46-54 KJV) My questions are, how many that might be the elect have lived sin free?... How many struggle with the carnal nature?... This is what I am trying to point out! Does Jesus actually destroy every wrong thought, deed, action, everything wrong that we do and we then live as he lived on this earth in a instant? .... I doubt very much that you don't sin anymore after that moment! Paul new in a instant that Jesus was Lord, and I also doubt that right after that moment he never sinned again! He went through a process and it took time. P.S I will never say that I am the elect! I see that I am in a process and when it's done if God wants,let God call me the true Jew, that's Christ!!😀 lol another P .S there are three questions, it would be nice to get a direct answer to them! Thank you
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Just like all mankind, every one of God's Elect and Chosen are sinners, who sin daily until the day they die.
It is only after the Resurrection to Life, do we no longer sin.
There is a Scripture that says, "There are none righteous, no not one."
Another Scripture says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
And, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1John 1:8
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Thank you John!!😀😀 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: Dan 4:35
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My questions are, how many that might be the elect have lived sin free?... How many struggle with the carnal nature?... This is what I am trying to point out! Does Jesus actually destroy every wrong thought, deed, action, everything wrong that we do and we then live as he lived on this earth in a instant? .... I doubt very much that you are completely free of doing your will and now you only do Gods will at that moment! Paul new in a instant that Jesus was Lord, and I also doubt that right after that moment he never sinned again! He went through a process and it took time. P.S I will never say that I am the elect! I see that I am in a process and when it's done if God wants,let God call me the true Jew, that's Christ!!😀
Here are a few emails... don't forget about the 'FAQ' board.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11607.0.html ----
How Do I Stop Sinning?
Email replies from Ray:
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7162.0.html
As for overcoming sin, this is something I am asked nearly daily. We all want to be sin free. This is a life long endeavor. Our first giant victory is when sin no longer "REIGNS over us." But from there, sins continually crop us (often unseen and un-noticed). God gives His Holy Spirit to only those who obey Him, and no one can obey Him until HE grants one repentance. And then we still continue to suffer in our struggle against sin. God intends for us to fight. This life is spiritual warfare. The battle is never over. You need to cry out to God for the desire, then patience to suffer, and finally the power to overcome it. There is no magic formula. There is no magic prayer. There is no sowing a seed or buying your way out of carnality. We must struggle and fight and overcome and endure until the end.
God be with you,
Ray
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4069.0.html
Dear Chad:
With all due respect, it is not because of a lack of knowledge that your are not having victory over your sins. There comes a time to DO what you already know. However, I will come to your defense by stating that you will not become victorious over most of your sins unless and until God determines that it is now time. I can only speak with authority when it comes to my own life. I had measures of success in overcoming some things virtually the moment I learned the truth concerning them. For example, I quite using the Name of Jesus and God in profanity the week I came to realize how bad it was, and that was forty-five years ago, and I have never slipped up on it even once since then.
But the "lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life," are the biggies that God will allow to drag on in one's life until they really get sick of these sins. Some people never get sick of these sins--they LIKE them. But the "Goodness of God" (Rom. 2:4) can make you repent and abhor these things. We never conquer every sin as long as we are in the flesh, but we can come to the place that "sin no longer REIGNS over us." I have no desire to sin. I do not think about sinning. There is nothing in the realm of sin that has any value to me. I'll let Jesus be my Judge as to how far I have come in overcoming sin. You have to cry out to God to rescue from sin. You cannot and you will not do it on your own power.
God be with you,
Ray
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6922.0.html
Dear J: You must rid yourself of all the Christian superstition that is still in your consciousness. You can't save yourself, except as God gives you the desire and the power. If sin still has "dominion" over you (See Rom. 6), then God has not yet been victorious in your spiritual life. It doesn't mean that he is finished with you, however. I continued to sin for years after I KNEW what I was doing was sin. I just deceived myself into being thankful for greasy grace.
One does not stop all his sinning just because he desires to stop. I desired to stop, but I couldn't stop. When it was God's time in my life to really repent and stop sinning, then God brought that about. No matter how much power you believe there to be in human will, God will bring you to the place that you will have NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH (Phil. 3:3). God is going to make you hate your sins real bad before He will grant you victory over them. Be patient--pray and obey till God comes to your aid.
God be with you,
Ray
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2888.0.html
Dear Rob:
You are right, I cannot help you overcome your carnal sins. That is something that
we all have to do between ourselves and God. God is dealing with you and will
continue to deal with you. I cannot change God's timing for what He has in store
for your life. Those of us who are maybe a little more mature, have all gone
through what you are going through. That's why the Bible calls us BEASTS. We
often think and act and desire as do BEASTS. You will not quit sinning until
God deems it time for you to quit, but in the mean time, you will come to hate
your sins, and still will not be able to overcome them. You will cry out to the only
One Who can help you. We all must make our "walk through the valley of the
shadow of death." It is not a pleasant journey, but to come through it and have
a clean and clear conscious for the first time in your life, is itself quite rewarding.
God be with you,
Ray
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Thanks Kat! Now I see where that FAQ is ,great another place to frequent! I just love Lrays teachings.... One does not stop all his sinning just because he desires to stop. I desired to stop, but I couldn't stop. When it was God's time in my life to really repent and stop sinning, then God brought that about. No matter how much power you believe there to be in human will, God will bring you to the place that you will have NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH (Phil. 3:3). God is going to make you hate your sins real bad before He will grant you victory over them. Be patient--pray and obey till God comes to your aid.... That's was from LRay. Now I know thats true because I can look back and see some sins God has granted me repentence to some things still happen and it's just like LRay stated! That's why I say eventually we finish are race! Doesn't Paul say...Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (1 Corinthians 9:24 KJV)... I told my friend once about my 17yr addiction to meth that when my heart was just sick and tired of it and I just hated being a meth addict,it was at that point God got my heart right that He could grant me repentence! That's why I know what LRay is saying is true!!
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Hello Alex,
Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding is that anyone who gets converted lives sin free, if king David was converted he would of never said ( make it bloody ).
When God gives us a new heart we then become converted as much as I can tell, when I was in so called Christendom, I was asked more than once ( are you born again ) has the resurrection happen, and I don’t know about it. Lol
If someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for that one to sin because they are converted but if they say they are converted and sin then their actions speak louder than words.
I agree God is calling out for Himself a people but if God converts people in this age then what need of God’s grace have we ?
What need of faith have we? But we hope for these things but if we have them already then why would someone hope for what they already have ?
We are involved in an on going process in this age but if we are converted the process is pointless.
God said, let us be making man in our image, when the man becomes converted he is in the image of God.
Thanks for your input Alex, maybe you see more than I but these are my thoughts. :)
Hi Rick,
What I shared with you was scripture. Peter was converted and strengthened his brothers after Pentecost. Paul was converted along the road to Damascus. So conversion does occur in this life.
Here is an email from ray on this matter concerning the apostles:
Dear Mike: Do not become discouraged because you are not yet where you desire to be spiritually in your life. God works differently with different people. We see it in our daily lives and the the lives of those in the Scriptures. It took over three years before the Apostles were converted, yet Saul/Paul submitted to God almost instantly after his calling.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5034.msg39488.html#msg39488
Receiving a new heart is a process that happens over time and will not be completed until we are fully redeemed, saved, overcome, born into the kingdom of God. Ray shows, as do the scriptures, that we are converted when we are begotten anew.
You are confusing begotten (concieved) with begotten (born). The greek language uses the same word for both. So we are CONCEIVED by the holy spirit, converted, when Christ comes and dwells within us, to which we begin putting off the old man, dying to self, being baptized into his death, crucified with him, etc..
We are BORN into the kingdom of God, birthed, born again, when judgement upon us is fully completed and has completed its redeeming work. The elect will be born into the kingdom at the first Resurrection, but they are (as well as the chosen) currently begotten of God. How do I know this? Well besides the verse I shared with you in 1 Peter 1:3, we have these words from Christ:
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
When you are "born again" (Don't confuse it with "conceived") then you are powerful and invisible like the wind. No one in this life will be like that. So hence we have two different scenarios here and it is the latter (conception) which causes us to be converted.
So those who are converted have a DOWNPAYMENT, a PROMISE, of a future redemption to come.
2Co 1:21-22 Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
So you said that if someone is converted in this age, it would be impossible for them to sin. I will tell you that conversion does not equate with being an overcomer. It is merely a step in the process along the way to overcoming, being saved--Salvation.
Here is another email from ray:
Dear Chris:
The Harlot Church consists of ALL unconverted Christians, not just Catholics.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2624.msg19752.html#msg19752
And another:
COMMENT: I'm sorry, but I do not see the connection of your question with Matt. 16:8? The church IS "A WELL KNOWN AND POPULATED CHURCH." Christendom is the largest religion in the world--TWO BILLION. That is, two billion in "name." How many of them are spiritually converted? How many believe the half of what Jesus taught?
After healing thousands and thousands and thousands of people, Jesus had 120 true believers left at the end of His ministry to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:15). And who ever said that the church was found "on only one web site?"
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2200.msg17727.html#msg17727
This too.
Dear Kemi:
When you are spiritually converted and have the Holy Spirit of God, you are then "IN Christ" you are IN "The Book of the Life of the Lamb." Jesus Christ IS THE BOOK OF LIFE! And there is henceforth "NO CONDEMNATION" toward you ever again (Rom. 8:1). That is the ultimate place we all want to be. Etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1468.msg12459.html#msg12459
Interestingly Romans 8:1 reads as follows: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
NOW there is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. The apostles were converted, they were in Christ, but they were not sinless. They still sinned because we will all sin while trapped in these fleshy bodies. We can be converted though, I believe it absolutely that we can. It is through conversion that we reach that point where "sin no longer reigns (Romans 6:11-13)" in us.
Here's the nail in the coffin as far as what ray taught is concerned:
Dear Bethany:
Absolutely it means that the spirit has no consciousness of its own. This can easily be proved and has been proved millions and millions of times. When a person is knocked out with a blow to the head, there is absolutely no damange to the spirit within man, whatsoever. Yet under this condition person knocked out HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS. He possesses a spirit, but HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS. His physical body must be "repaired" or "normalized" in some way for consciousness to return. The spirit may well be keeping the knocked out person alive, but yet, he has no consciousness.
I never said that no spirit has consciousness. OUR spirit has no consciousness. God IS Spirit and God is conscious, but we are NOT GOD. We only have a form of spirit in us to keep us alive. When converted God gives us yet ANOTHER SPIRIT which is called the HOLY Spirit, and it effects out consciousness, but does not keep us conscious at death, as that requires resurrection.
Notice I Cor. 2;11--"For what man man knows the things of a man, except [for] the spirit of man which is IN HIM? even so the thngs of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God [in him]."
It is only when "the spiritof man" is "IN HIM" that he has consciousness and "knows the things of a man." OUT of him, the spirit of man knows no anything: "For the living know [when the spirit is still IN man] that they shall die: but the DEAD [when the spirit is returned to God--see Chapt. 3:19-20] KNOW NOT ANY THING...." (Ecc. 9:5).
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2168.msg17408.html#msg17408
God bless,
Alex
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Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus our example was raised from the dead literally (1st the physical)that is not a good example if it does not happen to us now.(spiritually) put your finger in my side may be literal but others can put there finger in our side and see our wounds literally (our testimony)
In all these comments about resurrection are we speaking literal resurrection or spiritual resurrection (new creation) the old has passed (DIED)
Can we be dead yet breath and can we be alive in him and still be breathing.... don't know how to put this otherwise ... perhaps Im also going Mad
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Well Ian, the Scripture never speak of 'spiritual' conversion as resurrection in this life... as Alex just was saying it is "we begin putting off the old man, dying to self, being baptized into his death, crucified with him, etc.."
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
That Scripture you provided is certainly not talking about 'spiritual' resurrection, but the coming resurrection of the world in the next age, the patriarchs were not converted.
http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html ------------------
The Bible teaches "the Resurrection of the DEAD--dead PEOPLE, not dead bodies:
"But as touching (Greek: 'peri,' with respect to, concerning, pertaining to, about, on behalf of, ' the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt. 22:31-32)
Some ignorant theologians use this verse to prove that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never died, since it says "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
For crying out loud, can they not read? In what way? Pertaining to WHAT? With respect to WHAT, is God the God of the living? "But as touching [concerning] THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...God is the God of the living"! It is only "concerning the resurrection of the DEAD" that God is the God of the living. It is only in "resurrection" that the dead will be once again "living," and God will then be their God.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat it is a battle for me to explain.... - not sure if its out of fear of sounding Whacked, or if its going to turn what people think they know, on its head... I have been doing a lot of reading,asking,studies on this subject of resurrection that is "supposed" reserved for "some time" we call "end times",when I'm done, I will put something together and post it as a discussion
reading John 11:1- end & 1Cor 15- end,see what you think, there are many other scriptures but it all started with that one and then a few discussions of late, centered around this topic also got me delving.
I do not think this is as complicated as most find it to be. Crucifiction is separate from Burial which is separate from resurrection.
You quote Rom 6 v 5 - "Likeness" appears twice,underline them and selah
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Ian, I have heard this line of thinking before, that the resurrection is now for the elect, that there is no coming resurrection at the end of the age. That's not the way Ray taught that and I believe this is a false teaching that does lead people astray. Yes the elect are baptized into His death, yes coming up out of the 'spiritual' baptism waters is a resurrection of sorts, but the elect will still physically die and go to the grave to await the final gathering of elect at the 'first resurrection.' The baptism resurrection is only a shadow of the resurrection to Life, being born into the kingdom at the end of this age, when Christ Jesus returns and calls all the elect out of their graves.
In John 11 yes Lazarus was resurrected, that was purely a physical resurrection for a short duration (the rest of his physical life), Jesus had not yet died and there had been no sacrifice for our sin yet at that time. Jesus said in verse 15 it was done for a witness of who He was, so that they would believe.
Here is an excerpt from the article #E. Hell: 'Hades and the Second Death.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm --------------------------
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).
The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat it is a battle for me to explain.... - not sure if its out of fear of sounding Whacked, or if its going to turn what people think they know, on its head... I have been doing a lot of reading,asking,studies on this subject of resurrection that is "supposed" reserved for "some time" we call "end times",when I'm done, I will put something together and post it as a discussion
reading John 11:1- end & 1Cor 15- end,see what you think, there are many other scriptures but it all started with that one and then a few discussions of late, centered around this topic also got me delving.
I do not think this is as complicated as most find it to be. Crucifiction is separate from Burial which is separate from resurrection.
You quote Rom 6 v 5 - "Likeness" appears twice,underline them and selah
Ian, If I understand correctly, you are insinuating that the spiritual Resurrection happens to us now?
What happens to us now is the death of the old man. What happens after death? Spiritual Resurrection? No. Judgement.
1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:"
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
We are to consider ourselves dead that we may partake in judgement now.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That we may be alive in the spirit that resides in us. The spirit of Christ. That we may be converted.
This is a daily activity though. We don't just die once, we die daily. It is a process!
1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
This is the process of regeneration.
Lastly, when we are spiritually raised (Born again [NOT conceived] into the kingdom of God) we become invisible and powerful like the wind. I quoted this piece of scripture above. Here it is again:
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Everything about 1 Corinthians talks about the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. A FUTURE event that HAS NOT yet happened.
1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is THE [not 'A' ressurection but 'THE', THE ONE AND ONLY] resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Here is what paul said about this idea that I think you are trying to hint at:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
IF I am correct about what you have been insinuating, then this is a warning. Do not overthrow the faith of those yet weak in these matters.
God be with you,
Alex
P.S. If I am completely off on what you were trying to hint at then please ignore everything I Just said as it would not apply one bit to your thoughts.
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Hello Alex,
Alex, your last reply which was post 71concerning me cleared some things up that I didn’t realize or had thought about before.
I always thought as long as I commit just one sin, I cannot be converted. For me , you did a great job explaining and filling in the missing pieces of information or understanding I was lacking.
The things you explained ,I see so clearly now and not only that which you mentioned but also what Kat and J from K said as well.
I actually understand in greater depths my walk with Christ,.
Many thanks to you Alex and all who have responded to this thread :)
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One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not - Phil 3v10,11,12-
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One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not -
Hello Ian,
We are not reverting back to the natural simply because we havnt overcome, been saved, endured to the end, beeen raised from the dead...Discussions are fine but certain ideas border on heresy and blasphemy. Paul warned that this concept of the resurrection of the dead already having happened was overthrowing the faith of believers.
Here is Philippians
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."
Paul is saying that as far as the ressurection of the dead is concerned, he has not already attained. The same thing he said in timothy of it not being already passed. The same thing ray pointed out with "RECKON" yourselves dead, I.e. "consider" yourselves dead to the flesh so you may be alive in the spirit. Those born of the spirit, born again, are powerful and invisible like the wind. We have a promise of this redemption to come in our conception from God through the holy spirit in us but we have not "already attained" it. Only those that overcome shall be saved, those that endure to the end.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endureunto the end, the same shall be saved.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be [FUTURE, NOT as though weve already attained] also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
The work in us has began, it iisn't finished yet. We have not yet attained.
In Christ,
Alex
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One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not - Phil 3v10,11,12-
But the elect do begin in the spiritual while still in the physical flesh and it will 'mix' if and only if the Spirit of Christ is indwelling. We do start in the natural/physical, but we will never reach perfection while still in the flesh, it is a process of going from the darkness to the light.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
But even while we are moving into the light, still the spiritual is rather vague.
1Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
But we are learning and developing the fruit of the spirit 'through' the physical experience. Though there are those that do fall away after embracing these truths, they were never the actual elect to start with, those that are chosen elect God will not lost and He will certainly complete them all.
Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
If you think the first resurrection is actually now in this life for the elect, and not just a shadow of what is to come, well where are the elect from the centuries past? We have to be careful about these things that we hear and not be so easily shaken from the truth. The truth fits seamlessly together in the Scripture, any point that is the least bit out of line is not truth.
2Thess 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ok kat Im not saying There is a physical resurrection Im saying the whole resurrection is spiritual -The resurrection of the spiritually dead.... being Born again in itself is a resurrected life. (heaven is not a location in space)
Seems Folks are jumping to a conclusion that there are "ghosts" walking around.
There are resurrected saints walking around ....those who have suffered ,"died" and
been Raised - resurrected,Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, (not ours HIS) and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
The Day of the Lord is not a day when everyone is standing outside there home and pointing in the air toward the sky saying look the Lord sitting on the clouds.
No, the word says LIke A Thief ... and certainly those chosen are unaware until it happens.Jesus comes to us who are prepared before the foundation.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry(Paul tells those who are physically married to live as if they are not), nor are given in marriage,(he tells us if we are not married, we must'nt seek to be married) but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
By the Understanding of Jesus being Physically raised from the dead Is our spiritual resurrection 1st the natural then the spiritual
Johns Baptism ...Drowning (dying) being buried (pushed and held under the water) and coming up out of the water ---- Resurrection from the dead.
Holy Spirit baptism is ......
Some are teaching this FUTURE time stuff.... Christ is preaching NOW is the day yea Now is the hour.
2corinth 6v2 -- Rom 13v11 -John 4v23
Its the carnal imagination that construes the resurrection as REAL(physical)
I stand corrected But i did hear Ray say, in answer to a question "have you Raised the DEAD"? i guess pertaining to works...
he answered as a matter of fact I have....
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2Thess 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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Ian, If I understand correctly, you are insinuating that the spiritual Resurrection happens to us now?
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No Alex, Im not Insinuating, I'm telling you, resurrection happens to SOME of us NOW
but even then its almost impossible to even try and convince you, unless you have suffered...and have been made 'comfortable'(to be conformed to) this process?
Do you want to know the POWER of HIS resurrection? Don't apply limits to God or you are guilty of that which you quote(miss quote) and it is You that destroy the faith of some.
your quote/warning
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
From G450;resurrection... a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (The whole (false) church waits with bated breath for this type of resurrection) are you secretly one of them ?
Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mat_16:28; Luk_9:2
May God bless you with spiritual eyes and ears
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Seems to me that we are starting to get into teaching here which is something we agree not to do as members of this board. Rule of thumb as I remember it is if Ray didn't teach on it then we leave it alone. There are a number of things that Ray never taught on that I would like to bring up but I don't. Just sayin......
;)
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Seems to me that we are starting to get into teaching here which is something we agree not to do as members of this board. Rule of thumb as I remember it is if Ray didn't teach on it then we leave it alone. There are a number of things that Ray never taught on that I would like to bring up but I don't. Just sayin......
;)
You are totally correct Arion. Here is a reminder of the Forum Rules pertaining to teachings that are not found on this website:
"This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere."
With that in mind, I am going to lock this thread.
René