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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Craig on December 24, 2010, 09:51:25 AM
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http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/23/my-take-why-my-church-rebelled-against-the-american-dream/?hpt=C2
Looks like this church is starting to get it? I wonder what they are really like?
Craig
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Wow! Craig! This is quite amazing! I'd like to know someone attending that church! I know some folks around Birmingham I might check around and see if I can find out about them!!
Kathy :)
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They have quote “ trimed $1.5 from their budget....”
Receive or give a tithe, and you deny the Priesthood of Christ, who is our High Priest.
Joh 17:11 I am no longer in the world.......
Joh 14:17 He is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, for it neither sees him nor recognizes him. But you recognize Him, for HE ABIDES WITH YOU and will be IN you. 8)
Blessings
Arc
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Hey John! ~
...."do goodism".....~ EXCELLENT FOCUS and discernment! Thank you for your comments and insights.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked....................... has to happen in each one of us as we experience the unveiling of Christ within. We too must experience falsely perceived independence from God, the addictive false sense of security in and of things, that denies and is to the exclusion of His Spirit in us.
A carnal, false sense of righteousness, doing good for others, keeps locked up in spiritual prison, the company and bondage with our own worst enemy, the Beast within, that does anything to feel good and holy. We escape to our freedom and liberty in Christ throughGod given repentance to humble acknowledgement, healing recognition and blessed appreciation for God, His Spirit that IS Good and Holy Fruit from Him, within us.
The Kingdom of God is within, not in Bible Colledge, Church's built with human hands or prayer groups designed for popular approval. They have their reward.
Blessings
Arc
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i agree John i just saw on TV where people spent 456.5 billion on christmas i believe it would take( MANY) to spend that much on santa claus.
Terry
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Ok guys...don't be so hard on these guys! God works with each in His time! It took me many years to come out of that church frame of mind...just because we have some truth here doesn't mean that God has stopped working with the churches! I feel this attitude that "we have arrived!" I had that attitude when I was a Seventh Day Adventist and it took me many years to lose all that and in some ways I still feel myself having those attitudes rooted deep within...
God doesn't always do the miracles over night or in an instant! I always remember that God shook my very foundation to get me where I am today..so let's get off our high horses and thank God that He has a people out there...He is calling us all out of that system..BUT the people He calls are all IN that system! most of us were there...I feel like God has a purpose for all things and I for one would keep my mouth shut about sounding just a little too holy to even THINK about making light of what God may be doing...So they trimmed $1.5 million from their budget! they could probably trim that much and more again, who cares? Just because I would never go back and because I understand that there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there doesn't give me any position to act like I am so high that I could never fall or be deceived again! Just chill out and pray that God's will concerning these people will be done! What an amazing God we have that He works on individual hearts! God's will WILL be done!!
I don't mean to sound ugly, but just because we're HERE doesn't mean we're THERE, yet! God will one day open ALL eyes to see the truth and many things that we THINK we know will not be....God's love is higher and deeper than any of us know...His truths are higher and deeper than we can imagine...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPeC6Pri_pM&feature=related
Kathy :) :-*
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Excerpt from 'The Father's Will' 2006 Conference (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html):
God doesn’t call everybody to be one of His favorite chosen, elect, except from the church. So we don’t want to poo poo the church too bad, because that’s where He gets the elect from. I have never heard or known of an atheist converting and becoming one of God’s elect. They always go into the church first, to be corrupted by the church and then they’re shown the truth and they come out.
While I don't agree this church is on the path to God's truth, Ninny does have the right perspective. Pride does come before the fall.
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Hey John!.... :)
...So they trimmed $1.5 million from their budget! they could probably trim that much and more again, who cares?
I care. I care very much. That's not pride, and neither is it wrong to care. :( :)
.....Ninny does have the right perspective. Pride does come before the fall.
God causes both the pride and the fall. :D :)
Blessings
Arcturus
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I have looked at the church called Tomorrows World. After reading a lot of their material, I'd have to say they are real close to a lot of the doctrines that Ray teaches. HOWEVER NOT EVERYTHING they preach is truth, but still they are much better an any church I have ever seen.
The doctrines of an eternal hell is what gets me riled up.
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You are so right Kathy! I honestly believe NO ONE down here has ALL of the answers. Only God owns it all and He reveals it as He chooses, to whom He chooses and when He chooses. I'll take mine as I get them and be happy with what He reveals to me. I know I can never get on a high horse as I don't like it when I get knocked off. OUCH! ;)
Like it says in Kat's post about life's great truths...
"Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them."
I've eaten my fair share and I try to keep that to a minimum now. :D
Lin
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It is the keeping of carnal man, to side step the consuming fire of the One True God. The consequences are of God’s making. God shall not permit carnal Adam to rise above HIM. Luk 6: 40
The old man of mortal comforts speaking unto us smooth things that prophesy deceits Isa 30 :10, shall be, by the Mercy and Purity of God, broken and not spared. Isa 30 :14
There is peace and beauty in the “wilderness” away and out of the world. In returning to our first Love, we find rest and are saved and in quietness and in confidence shall be our strength. Isa 30:15. The kingdom of God is within. Luk 17 :21
Blessings
Arc
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Ok guys...don't be so hard on these guys! God works with each in His time! It took me many years to come out of that church frame of mind...just because we have some truth here doesn't mean that God has stopped working with the churches! I feel this attitude that "we have arrived!" I had that attitude when I was a Seventh Day Adventist and it took me many years to lose all that and in some ways I still feel myself having those attitudes rooted deep within...
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I don't mean to sound ugly, but just because we're HERE doesn't mean we're THERE, yet! God will one day open ALL eyes to see the truth and many things that we THINK we know will not be....God's love is higher and deeper than any of us know...His truths are higher and deeper than we can imagine...
Always the ray of sunshine, Ninny. :D I concur. It's easy to get prideful about these matters.
I approve of them donating their money to help others instead of using it for unnecessary construction projects, but I agree with John, just cuz they do some good don't mean their doctrine's right, we'd best stay away.
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Beautiful Astrapho!
To be "in Adam" or "in Christ". It is ALL "HIS workmanship". :)
Blessings
Arc
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Friend Phillip,
Some of us came through the same or a similar organization.
The Worldwide Church of God had a magazine called Tomorrow's World and the offshoots of that group have taken similar names. One is the Living Church O. G. another is the Philadelphia C O G.
They seem quite attractive at first to some folks, but as you may already know, care should be exercised when examining their dogmas.
Friend Bob
I have looked at the church called Tomorrows World. After reading a lot of their material, I'd have to say they are real close to a lot of the doctrines that Ray teaches. HOWEVER NOT EVERYTHING they preach is truth, but still they are much better an any church I have ever seen.
The doctrines of an eternal hell is what gets me riled up.
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Hello to all who are called or eyes opened to truth.
I wonder if these verses add to most of the replies.
Mark 9:38-42 (New International Version, ©2010)
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
walt.
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As I stated they do not have all of the truths that we know of, and the mature should be able to know that. However we all crawl before we are able to walk. As Ninny said "Ok guys...don't be so hard on these guys! God works with each in His time!" I agree!
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We can be like our Master or we can be like the Pharisees. Keep from them (publicans and sinners) because we are not misguided like them, or be willing to hang out and eat with publicans and sinners.
Mat 9:10-13 (UKJV)
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at food in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eats your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go all of you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
george.
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Hi George,
GREAT is the Hope, we can be like our Master. The Scriptures affirm the Truth you share. 8) Thank you!
Two thousand years of Christendom have sat, waiting on a physical return. Christ is not physical.
Luk 17:20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (physical manifestation)
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! ( because it is not visible to the world) for, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.
The Spirit gets right between our marrow and bone, to the heart of motives and soul of the hardened sin and causes the melt down of emotional immunity of the sinners world, arrogance and ignorance. An inward return to the Heart of Christ bleeds Mercy and Compassion on the Cross of Integrity upon us first before it turns water to wine and flesh carnality to spiritual life in purity and clean hope within us.
The return of Christ is within.
Christ coming to us L. Ray Smith. The heart made clean shall see God.
Blessings
Arc
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Thanks Deborah, profound stuff.
Grape x
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We are all beasts...we are all lost sheep gone astray. It's easy with hindsight to rail on and on about how the church is this or that. God called us out of the same corrupt system just as He will do with everyone, eventually. This is the point Ninny, Philip, & Linny are making that is being overlooked. Too much preaching, not enough listening.
No one here is even defending this church in question. All that was asked was IF this church was headed in the right direction, in your opinions.
Also, because I know SOMEONE will say, 'will Jesus did it, and I'm trying to be like Him'. Do you know that Jesus saved most of His derisive comments to the church LEADERS who KNEW what they were doing was wrong? Look in the very bibles that you are quoting to the members above for yourself. Does anyone believe that the billions of Christians on this earth KNOW that what they are doing/believing is wrong? Did you?
James 1:23-24 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
Look at this verse and think about BEFORE you were a 'doer of the Word'. When God showed you your true self, and you looked in that mirror and saw a brute beast, how humbling was that? Probably was earth-shattering, wasn't it?
Well, apparently not, because we've 'immediately forgotten what kind of man/woman we were'. And that is why there is an almost complete lack of compassion on this forum whenever the subject of church comes up. We want to look at them for what they should be instead of seeing them as how we were.
Christ said 'you shall know them by their fruits'. That's how you know the spirit of God is actually working in someone, not posting scriptures that one doesn't even take to heart. I only see arrogant, condescending attitudes towards our soon to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Instead of showing maturity and realizing this church, or any other church in it's infant stage, is not where they will be eventually, we act like toddlers who grow impatient with our younger sibling.
I'm sorry but it really gets me how sound counsel is ignored because one would rather get on their high chair & preach.
Marques
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Very timely Marques and a much needed reminder.
1 Cor. 8:1 Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
We are all still beasts and most of us have learned much and have become puffed up. (me too)
I know most have been hurt by the religious system, but most who are in it need charity and understanding; even when we do feel like we are pounding our head on a brick wall. The ones who lead these masses and know they are wrong or only do it for personal gain is the ones that our righteous anger should be pointed too.
So to my original question, is this church heading in a right direction? My answer is yes. Do I want everyone to rush there and join? No. I'm sure they have many bad beliefs still, and we are admonished to come out of her. But it is refreshing to see a hulk of a ship like religion make a small course correction to the right heading. Who knows what God has in store for this church or any of us? The leaders of this church are rightly seeing something is amiss in their world, like we once did. What if these people looked in on our forum and saw us running them down? Wouldn't do much for them to want to be like us huh?
Folks, we have been called out, but don't ever think we are any better. The knowledge we have been given is no better than a pile of dung if we can't apply it in our lives.
Craig
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WOW. Those last two posts, By Craig and Marques, building on what was written by Ninny, are truly words that are free from carnal superiority, they represent the heart of Christ. Thank you for posting those.
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Human lives are dysfunctional. Isn’t dysfunction the state of all physically aligned associations that share the same space with the higher spiritual realm of God’s Kingdom among us? Dysfunction ~ the Lot of the flesh.
Christ reigns supreme over heaven and earth. There can be nothing of Him in association to death and mortality. He is Spirit and Truth, Life and Love. He has conquered death and mortality, dysfunction and error. You know this. It’s elementary.
HE, Jesus Christ, caused me, last night, to ask on behalf of my husband, for HIS help in whatever, however way, HE sees wise and fit, to His Mercy. HE, Jesus Christ, wasn’t standing in the flesh before me, telling me to pray for my husband. No. The motivation, impulse and cause came from within me. The motivation to pray comes from a designation of my relationship that is God declared of and over me towards my husband..... thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen. 3 : 16 To pray for my husband then, is by God’s design.
Carnal men have no idea how to rule over their wives.
I am clueless as to how to prescribe to God. He has shown me a depth of ignorance. There are many depths of many ignorance’s.
I asked God for help. He is a Royal King in Sovereign Command of every move of every star orbiting every space in the Universe and in the makeup of our own atomic structures that bind us inside physical carnal flesh. There is no Mercy in flesh.
I am asking God to remove false feelings of security based on physical well being and supply. Have you ever experienced an empathy driven stake through your body? Ha...Have you never felt the sting of an injection to anesthetize pain? No? Personal expectations and needs don’t make the Universe go round. Does anything nice ever happen to you? I don’t expect Him to make me physically ill to cause my disassociation to physical bondages. Have a Heart. His Heart and His Kingdom as He prescribes is what life is all about. Thine is The Kingdom come.
Where’s your sound mindedness? Oh. Ranting of a pained mad woman? Really? Have you no pain? Have you no heart? Have you no peace of love and kindness? No? Are you paralyzed? Yes? Are you in a sound mind that exhibits no feeling and compassion or recognition of what drives pain and fear?
Call a spade a spade for once in your life. Leave the hypocrisy alone.
I know seductive, cooing balms of self idolatry. Is this God talking? If so, to who does He speak? You? I? Or are you too perfect to know? I’m not. I know its God, so kill me. And He does! He does! He kills the Beast within. His is the Throne that shall be occupied by His Glory and Power, Authority and Grace, Mercy and Great Love. The beast, yours and mine will die and shall be no more. Can you feel the pain? So did HE. His pain wasn’t any beast dying in His soul. It was our beast killing our salvation and placing His blood in defiance, upon our reptilian skins of cold vacant, clammy self aggrandizements. Too shocking is it. Nothing shocks Him! He knows everything and every deep dark secret of everyone.
Nothing gets past Him. He gets it. He gets us. He gets that everything and everyone is all about us, who rile against any little thing that threatens our self hypocrisy. Yes. It is that deep, that the green stale life of horror needs to be drained out of our lungs from every orifice of our putrid bodies. Oh I am not speaking to the genius ingenuity of our God who has crafted our muscles, sinews, veins and flesh into a vessel of supreme mastery of physical anatomy. No. I speak of the orifices of the carnal soul. The orifice is not the genital or sensual gaping bottomless pit, but the orifice of carnal destructions and self impalements. The getway escapes to delusion and whimpering darkness. Does nothing shock you?
I have listened far too long to the self-espoused hypocrites of radical delusion. Tell me pride comes before a fall and I’ll let rip like Christ with the whip turning over tables in His House of Prayer because you trade His words and His standards upon others whilst you inflate your own sense of worthiness upon the sufferings of others. God will be God inside every writhing, hypocritical, foolish, drug abased hypocrite and He will set straight His Kingdom with or without you prancing your titles and aggrandizements on the world’s best selling news reports. Great is the desire for healing.
Do you want to be with Him and not without Him? The job of correcting the dregs of society when He comes to rule with a rod of Iron is for those who are understanding the job description is not a walk in the park. It is one that guarantees success in absolute resolute integrity to what is Holy. It is one that requires such deep cleansing that even the cockroaches will go to church voluntarily and it won’t be the carnal church of dying flesh. Can you laugh? No?
Are you squeamish? No? Feel every feeling. Receive every beating heart as yours. Put on the TV and see the wrought pain of those you will never meet in the flesh but will meet when they ask you how long your feeling lasted when you saw their eyes poked out and their children given over to sex trade and drugs. Did you cry then? You will. You will. Your own salt of the sea of tears will cleanse your deep stony hearts.
Haven’t you cried? Ah. Where’s your pride that comes before your fall dear? Aren’t you the same as all flesh? Can’t you see the error in you is the same one in all? Fool. What a fool, all have been.
Oh I don’t beat myself up. No. I prefer to beat you up in the hope of My Glory. Isn’t that the way you know best how to behave in this rabid deafening to senses society of giant wills to escape pain? Break down all the questions. Line them up and answer. Pain is such a clean experience by contrast to the breaking apart un-cohesive corruption that is queasy soft, abjectly spineless and deeply self hypocritical. A mucky mushy mess is the stony heart of the glutton, the aimless hopelessly lost soul of the destitute. Does nothing shock you yet?
Where is Jesus in all this? He is right there on the cross and He gets off the Cross but not before the eyes that are relishing His death.
He overcomes the worst in you and me and all the world and He does it out of sight, out of mind and out of His Heart piercing the heady self glorifying crowds who coo to death and purr to spiritual poverty to their own demise. He authors it ALL.
The god of flesh’s liking and making, fits carnal narcissism. Too bored, not enough energy to look up that word, are you? You refuse to learn and defy teaching yet your own Teacher, that is sent of the Christ Spirit, tells you, begs you, implores you to pay attention to the words. This one doesn’t come out but by what...prayer...and fasting is the addition of those who want your meal ticket. There is no sacrifice for sin that has not been paid in full. Have you got a Dictionary? Have you got legs? Can you get up and take up the mat of self excuses and languishing self sorrow and ego? Take up your mat of indulgence and walk. Only when you are dying can you really start living. Get up to God. Get up to the speed of the Spirit of Christ in you. Do I talk to myself? Have you not heard?
This god of all flesh has bowed before emotional scars, yesterdays, hurts, grief’s, failed ambitions, less than glorious victories and most of all, defeats, hidden issues with destruction and effortless agony that overwhelms the broken hearted. Have you got anything like that beautiful? Well handsome? Have I not performed spiritual plastic surgery of the slouch, the sloth and the fearful of the one True God that says He will burn all the defecations of the world up and He will leave clean what is filth. What a Powerful, Masterful God we actually have, you and I. Father is GREATNESS personified in the Face of Christ our consuming FIRE<He burns off the veils of carnal flatteries, ambitions and look good pontifications.
Oh you want scripture and verse do you. You fool. The Scripture is not the Word of God. The Word of God is Christ in the beginning. The Scriptures do testify of Him, they are not HIM. You want a fight. You want to take out Timothy 3 : do you? Go ahead. What Bible has ever made a person whole, repented, and saved. Not one. Did Christ convert anyone in his earth time ministry? You know He didn’t.
Hundreds and thousands of Bibles out there. Over 30 thousand different stages and podiums of the flesh speaking Pharasiess to choose from. Pick your dress. You have so much variety. Like to sing. Go to the Pentecostal. Like to look holy. Go Catholic.
Only the Spirit, the Living Spirit of God in you can set you free. His Kingdom that the Scribes and Pharisees prevent from connecting to the living spirit of Christ and His Kingdom among and within us. Yes it is. It is.
He is the Spirit that is gagged, bound, broken, pierced and crucified that is supposed to be in you as His Death you share, crucified. Where are you reading this. In the comforts of the job, family and life He has given you for He gives to both good and evil. Who are you. Where are you?
Ring the alarm. Am I teaching. No. I am crying. Can you still not hear? The time for teaching has left my bones, body, and veins. I am crying. Can you cry. Can the salt of your own wounds burst open and hear His Voice in you that is His Mercy speaking, His Love loving and His Spirit Healing you. He is the Teacher of His Pain, His Love and Victory He brings in you. What can I teach you if you think, with that sound mind you so admire. Think. God is a God of the Living. Am I dead?
HE shall remove the stain of destitution, prostitution and revolution. HE will get to the nitty gritty of the heart of stone that is within and He with His Victory, burns through trash to re make what is broken, useless and worthless to Him. He will remake what is spoiled and trashed and bent and corrupt. Got any trash beautiful? Call the Ghost buster. His name is Christ and His Kingdom is Light that is way too bright for misty eyes that love the dark. He has appeared to some within. Why wouldn’t He? His Kingdom is within.
That’s got to be some victory don’t you think you pride filled muffin of tragedy. Oh you think I am talking to YOU. No I’m not. I am not talking to YOU. Ha....were you offended?
A heart of stone can’t beat. It can only hate. God can and will be loved with every beat of our hearts. Sooner or later, He will be the epitome of everything we love, admire and desire and represent.
Do you know what it means when something hurts so good? Check His Kingdom out. It IS within.
Blessings of His Kingdom and His Royal Majesty
Yours Truly
Deb
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I know just where you are coming from John.
Craig
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I perceive we are all talking past one another. I do not think we have any fundamental disagreements. We are just considering this matter from different perspectives.
I have only one reaction to any religion or religious teacher. I despise them all (the Pope and Billy Graham and the Dalai Lama included). I immediately pick up on the errors they all teach. I tune them out and turn away. I have been this way for the past ten to fifteen years since I left my former church. I cannot even remember the exact date I left (maybe around 1998?) because I was like a bird freed from a net. I flew away and kept on flying as far and fast as I could.
I am still in shock and awe that I stopped and read and studied the information on the BT website in October 2009. I cannot believe that I attended the Mobile bible conference in November 2009 since I cannot abide religious things. What Ray taught just struck a cord in me. I perceive that what is taught here is the real truth. The real deal. Knowing myself, it amazes me that I'm still here studying and listening.
For what it is worth, I do not think that I am one of the Elect. There is too much evil in my dark heart. But I have this abiding curiosity at what the Father is doing. The Father is so amazing and fascinating. It is a strange work that He is doing. The Master Potter is forming us all for a specific purpose in His Grand Plan. We will all be happy where He puts us because we will be where we are meant to be. I wonder if we will ever fully understand the Father.
You're being very kind John, different perspectives maybe....maybe not, but I sure couldn't tell it from a few 'perspectives' in this thread.
gk
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John from Kentucky.... Pro 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. That was a very nice answer to what could have been construed to be a criticism.
I understand both what you have said and what Marques and Craig have said. I like both of what has been said. Yes there are definitely different perspectives possible on such a broad topic.
My agreement is with you both. If I could put forth one perspective I see, and I am open to criticism on it. The early church was deeply involved in sharing of worldly goods and supporting each other. They took up collections for widows and orphans. They also were deeply evangelistic to the unreached. Those are examples that we should follow. I do not think it is bad to see this work being done by this church and then respecting what they are doing. I will not go deeper than that, as far as judging them or their motives. I simply thank God that they are doing that and then I compare myself to those works, and see if I measure up. I just don’t want to be a hearer and a learner only, I want to be a doer, and I respect people who do, and do give of themselves sacrificially. I would never categorically state that their works will merely burn up. Let Jesus judgement seat decide that. I have my hands full judging myself already.
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... The ones who lead these masses and know they are wrong or only do it for personal gain is the ones that our righteous anger should be pointed too.
first of all, i want to say that i have been reading and re-reading this thread and all the posts that have been written on it, because i believe something is going on, between the lines, in some of the posts. the, there's an elephant in the room, but we're not talking about it, kind of feeling. it is something i am sensing in the gut of my soul. something that has stirred within my spirit. i don't know what it is, but i believe there are those who do. most importantly, i know that He knows what it is about.
the reason i copied and bolded the above statement by craig is because, after re-reading the posts written prior to craig's exhortation, i don't believe anyone was taking am at the blind/deaf ones sitting in the pews. it is those who preach, teach, and deceive those that sit under their counsel that are the recipients of the 'righteous anger'. when the statement was expressed to 'don't be so hard on these guys', my reaction after the first read of the posts prior to that statement was, no one seems to be being hard on the guys who sat in church, but on those who mislead, and lie to those who sit listening. after re-reading the posts, i still do not believe any one was being, high-minded, puffed up, with a better than they are attitude. i did not see pride in any of the posts that would require a fall. i just didn't.
claudia
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Thanks Claudia for catching my mistake in my original question, I did not reread it before posting. I did say what you said.
There was no ulterior motive for my post and I think I am pretty blunt with my posts (probably to a fault) and I don't think it matters what my original question was, as my reason for posting remains the same. My reason for the follow-up post was to remind everyone we are no better than anyone sitting in the pews every week. Whenever the church question comes up (this does not just single out this thread) we are quick to condemn by post and pm. I just wanted to point out that we should not do this, and why, and that I am guilty also.
Perhaps the posts were meant to condemn the leaders but unfortunately when we talk about the churches we make the members guilty by association. People forget that Jesus speaks of the good attributes of the churches in Revelation 2 & 3 also. We have many more visitors than members and it would be sad for a person who is being pulled from the church to see us as the enemy or unloving elitists or even worse like those Ray talks about in "The kiss of Death" paper.
When I asked what they are "really like" I just wondered if the news story was true or if this church was the same as all the other mega-churches? Because if the story was true then this church is definitely heading in a better direction. Nobody posting from the other side of the world or the country or the state would know for sure unless they went there or knew someone who did, Kathy's response was what I was asking for, and I am still curious if anyone knows anyone.
I did not meant to single anyone out as we all are guilty of our feelings. I want John to know I was not picking on him, as I suspect I am cut from the same mold as he is :)
Craig
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I totally understand what you are saying Craig as I have to work diligently on a daily, maybe even minute by minute basis, to keep myself off of any pedestal for knowing what I know. Human nature is a hard enemy and quite frankly, I like to be right.
I would like to say one thing. I read a lot here about the deceptive preachers but I have a brother-in-law who is a preacher and who I obviously believe is teaching falsities. While I agree that there are MANY who are teaching lies to further themselves financially and selling whatever they can using God to make a profit, I don't think we can put them all in the same category. My brother-in-law is a dear man with a huge heart. He truly believes what he teaches is truth (he unfortunately has his doctorate in theology) as was proven when he had a long discussion about hell with my husband. His final thoughts were simply, "I hope you are right." This is not the heart of a man who wishes torture on anyone. And he too is exactly where he is supposed to be.
That last statement is one I have to repeat over and over again to myself.
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Doggone John, I had you pictured as a tie dyed shirt wearing flower child that sang Kumbayah every morning when waking up. :o
Craig
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Hey Craig,
To offend me, you need to chop off my head with a dull ax or burn me at the stake with green, wet wood.
darn, i have already prepared red wood. maybe next time ::)
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While searching the front page of Rays website, a few minutes ago, I found an email I sent him some years ago and his answer. It deals somewhat with this very topic...
I think your web site is doing a great service. I do not think it will impact much at all those with a hardened made up mind attitude, but for those like me, who for 20 years agonized over the prospect of so many people facing such an awful eternal doom it is like the most refreshing thing I have ever read.
One small question I am pondering. Since so much of Christendom believes (at least doctrinally I'm not sure how many believe it in their heart) in eternal torment, how does God do his work through these ministries so far in error?
I guess it is true when we come to Christ we receive a better salvation than those who come after death by sight, and not by faith, as we do avoid any of Gods corrections, but I wish some ministries would arise and do the works of God and preach the correct Gospel!
For example, I think Focus on the family does a lot of good in dealing with issues of this life (though still no hope for most after death) so what should are position be in regards to most of Christendom?
Ray Replies]
Dear Douglas:
Thank you for your interest in my site.
Paul said that there were those in his day that were preaching Christ for the WRONG reasons. He nonetheless said that Christ was at least being preached to some degree.
There have been many people who have come to Jesus Christ through churches or ministries that are totally out of step with the Scriptures. Many of these people write to me and tell me that although they found Christ in this or that church or ministry, that they were unfulfilled until God showed them His real plan of salvation for all. And that's one way in which God works through His own enemies of the Cross.
You are correct in stating that it is better to come to Christ through faith now rather than through sight later. However, ALL BELIEVERS are still corrected and chastised by God. Hebrews explains this in some detail:
"And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the DISCIPLINE of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being EXPOSED by Him. For whom the Lord is loving He is DISCIPLINING, Yet He is SCOURGING [that is a severe beating, but used here to show the severity of God's actions to purge us of sin and carnality] EVERY SON to whom He is assenting." (Heb. 12:5-6).
This chapter ends by informing us that, "Our God is also a CONSUMING FIRE." Paul tells us more about that spiritual consuming fire of God in I Cor. 3:14,
"If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."
As Paul also said,
"It is through MUCH TRIBULATION that we enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens."
Keep the faith! God be with you!
Ray
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As to the guests coming to this website, any good Christian, especially a hellfire and brimstone bible thumper, cannot help but be offended by anything they read on the BT website. Are there any of Ray's writings that would not offend a religious person?
john, this statement i've bolded is almost exactly what i thought when i read what marques and craig both said about our being concerned over running off, or offending, any guests because of things we have posted concerning the churches.
it is true there are some guests who will join the forum first, without reading any of ray's papers, and may see our posts before they have any idea of what ray is teaching by the Spirit of God. but, if guests can be easily offended by the words we speak from our hearts concerning the false teaching by the leaders of the churches, expecting us to be above saying anything they consider negative, they will be horribly offended when/if they read the truths ray has been expounding on. i believe if some guest(s) might never get past any offending post by a forum member, and thereby never pursue the BT website any further, well, then that too is where God the Father has them in their lives.
i believe that one can speak about the church leaders' deceptions, without it being an attack on the leader personally, or on the people innocently sitting in the pews attending church. i also believe this is what the earlier posts on this thread were about, before it went in a whole other direction about previous posts being puffed up or on a high horse or about forgetting we sat in those same churches, about being prideful or any other such adjectives. i don't believe at all that anyone who posted on this thread has forgotten that they too once sat in a church, listening to the preachers and believing what was spoken.
in my own humble opinion, if allowed to give it, i just can't see Jesus Christ being so concerned, to the point of berating some of His own apostles, for their saying anything amongst each other about the lies He exposed which were spoken and taught by the leaders/teachers in the temples. and His reason for the berating being, because someone listening in on their conversation may attend the temple and be confused or offended by the apostles' discussion. i may be very wrong on this, but, i don't see where Jesus Christ was so concerned that someone who may attend the synagogue was around and listening in when He lit into the pharisees and other leaders of the synagogue, that He held back from speaking the Truth.
i know for sure, and not just my opinion, that ALL we do and say, whether in person or online, should be done out of love, and with the mind of Christ.
claudia
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Good morning ALL,
40 replies from various members of the future Family of God, all offered in love.
This thread and its responses reminds me so much of a friendly family gathering at a
summer homecoming where everyone is listening carefully to hear the views and sincere
feelings of one another. Everyone taking their turn and all being aware of the little children
playing at our feet who may overhear our remarks and learn from them.
Thank you all for sharing and for using well the language of true Godly love.
Bob
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in my own humble opinion, if allowed to give it, i just can't see Jesus Christ being so concerned, to the point of berating some of His own apostles, for their saying anything amongst each other about the lies He exposed which were spoken and taught by the leaders/teachers in the temples.
Claudia,
I actually used to think and feel the same way as you and John. Any member of the forum for the last 3 years knows that I've said many sharp comments on this subject and others when standing up for the Truth.
But, a very wise member of the forum reminded me that this forum is not all about me:
Matt 18:6, Mark 9:42, & Luke 17:2 whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
And as mentioned, the members of the church and some of their leaders, are babes in the spirit. They only handle the milk, not the meat. We've had members who were called from their leader positions in church. Not everyone called is sitting in the pews. Craig mentioned that the church members become guilty by association, and though that may only 'appear' that way from the outside, here is what Paul mentions about how we present ourselves or 'appear' to others:
1 Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Also, Christ saved his sharpest derision for the Jewish leaders who KNEW better. Most of the billions of Christians on this earth (including many pastors, priests, ministers, etc.) don't know any better. Christ likened them to the blind leading the blind...no one walks around intentionally blinded, circumstances completely out of their control have made them blind. We understand this in the physical sense but the same applies spiritually as well.
I am glad this subject came up however, as it has been a needed discussion for some time.
Marques
One other note from Paul:
Rom 11:18 ...do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you
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Matt 18:6, Mark 9:42, & Luke 17:2 whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Thanks Marques for bringing out that very significant Scripture. I've been following this thread and actually can relate to both sides. Yes the church teaches manmade doctrines and heresy, we know this all so well because we were once there. BUT we also still have family and friends there and that is where the yet to be called out believers still are. So we have to be very careful how we speak, because at any time we do not know who "these little ones" are and could be here. Someone starting to read Rays articles and having their eyes opened are still in a delicate state of learning, certainly we would not want to be responsible for a single one of them having a setback or worse yet deciding maybe this is not for them.
I think we have only been given the mission, as Ray has, to expose those who contradict in a very limited way, if at all. If we ever have a time to speak out against the church, even then we should be careful, as we certainly are not filled with wisdom, to use in our words as Christ was.
Mat 10:16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I think we have only been given the mission, as Ray has, to expose those who contradict in a very limited way, if at all. If we ever have a time to speak out against the church, even then we should be careful, as we certainly are not filled with wisdom, to use in our words as Christ was.
I think that is a very interesting statement. Ray clearly has been equipped to do that very mission very well, to expose those who contradict. Do we then assume that is our mission too? Do we have the wisdom, and the mandate to do so? I think it is very tempting to feel spiritually superior over our lesser enlightened brothers and sisters. But are we really superior, just because God has granted us this knowledge, this understanding? What if their works done from love are far better than ours? Are we really superior?
What about telling people who have no church knowledge at all, about Jesus? Are we only to go to the already churched?
Why can't we ever preach milk? The apostle Paul did, he says so himself, to the Corinthians. He could not give them strong meat, because they were yet too carnal! But that did not stop him from giving them something! Why do we feel we only have to be strong meat preachers? Why cant we tailor our approach, depending on too whom we speak. Christ certainly did. I would LOVE to see some with this greater understanding actually go out and evngelize or do some of the difficult works those still in Babylon do, even if they are motivated partially to rescue people from the misbelief of eternal torment. They still are demonstrating that they care. I am very thankful that some Sunday School teacher aquainted me with Jesus 40 years ago. God may have graciously given me more understanding since, but that was the beginning, and I am grateful for that.
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Hi Doug,
I think maybe you are thinking that we should try to spread this truth and witness. Here are a couple of emails concerning this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,245.0.html ----
I never said that you couldn't discuss your faith with others (in a store, on the street, wherever). But there is a quantum leap from talking to something in a coffee shop and TAKING THE GOSPEL TO ALL NATIONS!
The "ye" of Jesus' declaration of talking the gospel to all nations, was to His eleven apostles ONLY. And the second half of Matt. 28:19 is not even Scripture. It was added by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles. Jesus did NOT command Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and "many others" (Luke 8:3), to "teach all nations." Yet they supported Jesus' ministry.
v
If you read Paul's epistles, you will see that Paul cautioned about "laying hands on anyone too quickly" lest they be lifted up with pride, etc. I likewise caution people all the time about trying to "take on the religious establishment" immediately after learning a few Scriptural Truths. They usually fall flat on their face with shame, and the opponents eat them for lunch. I won't tell you what you should do, Jeremy, I can only caution you.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2537.0.html -----
You will never, ever, ever win someone over by a clever argument with the Scriptures. There are two reason why I do this and you shouldn't: [1] I am being a witness AGAINST all the heretics that attack me and the Truths of God, and [2] my answers to their foolish and unscriptural arguments are a great teaching tool for all those who read our site and who visit our Forum.
But in my private life, I do not try to convert, convince, change, etc., my neighbors and acquaintences. I will tell them the truth about God and the Scriptures, but I do not make a pest of myself. If and when people ask you, give them only as much as then need and are willing to accept. If they desire more, they will come back.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,222.0.html ------
God called me to do what I do.
If you feel that God is calling you to be a teacher, then be a teacher. I cannot tell you how to approach strangers with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Quite frankly, one's actions and deeds speak more for your standing with God than do your words. Peter said to be ready always to give an answer to them that "ask."
I do not have a "Thus saith the Lord" regarding what you should do in your life as far as being a teacher, minister, etc. It has been my experience, however, that most who want to teach do not have the ability from God to teach. But I am not there to witness your abilities. This one is between you and God, Jeremy.
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Hi John,
However, on the BT website, I feel free, in that here there are others with like minded understanding. I feel I can let my guard down. I can read and discuss things that I couldn't discuss among the general public. Among fellow mutants, I can speak openly.
This is the way I feel and enjoy this fellowship that we have here.
If I am not to offend anyone who may read this website, then I need to keep silent, like I do in everyday life, because I perceive that what I believe is offensive to the majority of people. I have no desire to offend people just for the heck of it.
It's not that we should not speak these truths because that will offend the church goers that might be here, we should just be mindful of others when we speak.
In the future, I would like to know how the Father decides whom He calls. Is it totally random? A flip of a spiritual coin?
The Elect were to be chosen before they were even born.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
2Ti 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,
Even before those that are chosen have their eyes opened I think they are given a certain path to walk that will prepare them for the time when their eyes are opened.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
So it's ordained for the Elect to be who they are. But we can not get too haughty with this, because we do not know for sure if we are a true Elect (wheat oppose to a tare) until the resurrection.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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It's not that we should not speak these truths because that will offend the church goers that might be here, we should just be mindful of others when we speak.
Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Peace...Mark
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Hello to all ,and thanks for this tread Craig
After reading all the replies,and learning much from fellow members, and in my opinion it would be good to be mindfull of
1cor 13:1-13 when and how we represent ourselves.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 (New Living Translation)
1 Corinthians 13
Love Is the Greatest
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it;[a] but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless.
11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[c] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.
Walt.
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Hello Kat
you are correct in that I think we should spread truth and witness. Did not Paul say "Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? His ministry was to take the gospel to all the gentiles. Of course Paul understood the fullness of this Gospel. He wrote so many of the verses we love that speak of the full redemptive plan of God! Paul could not be shut up! I am not saying that the full truths must always be preached to everyone all the time. I am not saying go out and dispute with others. But my goodness, the Love and righteousness that it takes to TRULY become an overcomer...it is not how well we can debate it is how we are showing the Love of Christ in our thoughts, actions, and lives.
Thank you Walt for that timely reminder of Love. Love is greater than knowledge! It says in that very passage you quoted, special knowledge will become useless. Yes Yes that is why I am so set on how our love is being proven and not on what you know!
Do I see some contradictions? Yes I do, in that, the ones who have arrived, in that we know that God will save all, that we know there is no eternal hell, that we know we must overcome the flesh, the world and the devil, to make the first resurrection, that we WILL if we are of the Elect...we should be the salt of the earth so that all men would see our good works and give God praise for it! It is wonderful to give of yourself and your substance to help others. Why is so little of service or reaching out ever talked about or emphasized? This message is so powerful.. It calls one to repentance, to righteousness, and it shows God to be fair and loving. Why not preach it?
It is wonderful to expose those who contradict. It has been done, and masterfully. I read and reread all the time. But is that the only point? Is this a great work of God? Many great works start based on correcting error, but now what? Show ME the MONEY!! taking these beautiful and profound truths, PROVE them by letting us be changed... and not hiding them under a rock or a bushel, but taking them to the world in our actions, in our words and deeds, this seems to be the whole thrust of the gospel. Please forgive my exuberance, but I think if (I say if rhetorically) IF we are converted, if we do understand, then our LOVE should exceed that of Babylon, and I dont mean in doctrine, I mean in real life actions.
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DougE6, sounds good to me. I don't know how one can be full of god's love and not act. Or to do an act one doesn't want to do but because of love of God they do it. But I think some are afraid of getting into pride doing good works. If we know Christ is in us and "THEM" then I mostly feel I am serving Christ. Without that knowledge there would be some I would leave behind without that drink of water given them. I don't worry about it because it is natural to like some more than others. It is supernatural to love them all.
What helps me is the thought that God loves them and I try to do the best i can, especially if a person has ongoing needs. I am fully aware of the beast within and that feeling of pride but after many many yrs. when one has died somewhat to themselves it is easy to spot it rearing it's ugly head.
If a person is aware of their ego (their false self, the beast) and how it operates then one will not take on too much like the ego would have them do. There are no fantasies or carnal imaginations that can't be spotted after awhile when the Holy Spirit works in you.
Jesus said the most important commandment was to love God and love our neighbor, with God's help I do a bit here and there. Just a fact anymore, more like a good habit but nothing to write home about! They usually help me learn more of the depths of that ugly creature residing within, especially when they are not thankful and appreciative. God bless them. Judy
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hello John from Kentucky
I agree with everything you said but I don't see your conclusion! :) Funny how that can be, eh? We can agree on those facts but completely see a different response. You are right that it is not Gods plan to save everyone now, and yes, only He is capable of doing it. And yes he will save everyone eventually, and yes the major harvest will take place in the next age. Your illustration of the feasts is spot on.
But we are not privy to whom God is calling now. None of us know the particulars or the future. At all. And this is intentional on God's part. And He is calling and choosing some now. And God has intentionally not told us who and when and how many He is calling and choosing. And if we think we can put a number on it, and decide that it is such a small number that we can be justified in not trying our best for Him now, I think that is not good thinking. Please excuse my frankness.
I want to do my very best! I want to hear Well done my good and faithful servant. I want to gain 2 talents from the two talents given, or 1 talent from the one talent given, or 10 talents from the 10 talents given. I do not want to hear, "you wicked and slothful servant, you knew I was a demanding taskmaster and you did nothing to gain interest on what I gave you. You hid your talent and did nothing. Therefore I will take from you what I gave you and give it to the ones who were faithful and worked hard to gain a good return on what I gave.
Jesus was obedient to the uttermost and so should we be. He gave his all. That is the requirement to sit on the throne with Him. The apostle Paul gave his all. He said he fought the good fight. What a great thing to be able to say at the end of your life. DO NOT HIDE behind what you think is the plan of God to excuse you not going out and reaping a harvest. That is what your arguement seems to be saying to me. Gaining the first resurrection and Jesus praise and throne is a pearl of great price to be sought after, to be prized above all things. I believe doing the works of God means that we will be reaching out to others, to gain a harvest. If you do this, I believe God will give the increase. An olympic athlete, trains really hard. God may have fore ordained the gold medal, but the path to it involves a lot of work. If you are doing the work, it is because God has a harvest for you to reap. Yes God causes it. But He does not take away the hard work and faith involved to reach the objective, to win the race.
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However, on the BT website, I feel free, in that here there are others with like minded understanding. I feel I can let my guard down. I can read and discuss things that I couldn't discuss among the general public. Among fellow mutants, I can speak openly.
If I am not to offend anyone who may read this website, then I need to keep silent, like I do in everyday life, because I perceive that what I believe is offensive to the majority of people. I have no desire to offend people just for the heck of it.
It's not that we should not speak these truths because that will offend the church goers that might be here, we should just be mindful of others when we speak.
these statements by john, and the last one by kat, really hit home for me. there have actually been many other statements made by members on this thread that have hit home for me, or hit me over the head. ;)
i am having much trouble of late, trying to figure out how we on this forum can honestly discuss the milk, or meat, of the scriptures, without someone else being offended by our words, whether that someone be a guest, newbie, longtime member, or moderator.
the statement above by kat especially hit hard, because i know that personally i write, and edit, and reread, and think a little bit longer about the subject, and then write some more/edit and reread, before i ever finally post a comment because i am always being mindful of the others who will read my words. i don't believe anyone who has posted on this thread, especially those at the beginning of this discussion, are not also always considering those who will be reading the things they say.
claudia
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Hi Claudia,
I think you are a very considerate person when posting :) What I meant about being mindful of others, is just that harsh comments rarely help, but more often hurt. Our words vibrate out and touch many people that come here and a post remains and will continue to touch people. So I feel that there is always a way to make comments that are encouraging and helpful without being harsh, rude, sharp, callous or mean, even when talking about the church. This is just the way I think.
Hi Doug,
I believe doing the works of God means that we will be reaching out to others, to gain a harvest. If you do this, I believe God will give the increase.
Yes there must be works or fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Gal 5:22-23). I believe that these are reflected by His spirit indwelling towards all those we come in contact with. It is not so much intentionally trying to share this truth with others as much as it is in showing love through our words and actions at all times. This to me is how you let your light shine and not hide it under a basket, people will see the truth in you, because it is revealed in the way you live. We are given constant opportunities to let our light shine in all the little everyday way we interact with family and people we associate with at work or even the cashier at the store.
If you see what I'm saying, our works are to do good/love others, by our attitude towards all people all the time.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
v. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
But I am not saying that we should not share this truth with anybody if the opportunity arises. Surely if God sends someone to us with questions that we can answer with this truth, it is a blessing to be able to share it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jesus is the Annointed One of the Father to save mankind. Speaking for myself, I can see the great evil and sin within me. I cannot even save myself. How can I possibly save or teach others?
What say Scripture?
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Neh 9:27 and You give them into the hand of their adversaries, and they distress them, and in the time of their distress they cry unto You, and You, from the heavens, do hear, and, according to Your abundant mercies, do give to them saviours, and they save them out of the hand of their adversaries
Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Peace...Mark
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Hello John
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
It is not that God could not save the world without us, it is that God chooses to save mankind through our help! We are ambassadors, representatives, like Christ was! Obviously, we are not as good at the job as Jesus was, but we can always get better and better because we have Christ in us! Notice the word IMPLORE? Implore means to make an appeal in supplication, to 2. To beg for urgently; entreat. To make an earnest appeal
I get the impression that in Paul's evangelism he did whatever he could to win others...
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
1Co 9:23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
1Co 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
I want to win the prize. I would implore you :) to leave that attitude that those in the first resurrection are so predetermined that you should not seek the high calling, the heavenward calling in Christ Jesus. I do not think it is God intent at all that we should not seek this because "it is futile to even want to be in the first resurrection" John, God forbid that you should feel that way! Please don't!
You know how Ray says how He begs God for his insights? How if you want the blessings of God, you need to want them with all your heart?
Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Please please seek him with all your heart and strength and might. Covet the First resurrection. Make it the prize that you are willing to sacrifice for. Gain Christ and lose the world. Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
You remind me of this I HOPE FOR YOU THAT THIS WILL BE THE CASE>>>>Luk 14:8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him,
Luk 14:9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this person,' and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place.
Luk 14:10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you.
Luk 14:11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
I hope your accurate appraisal and all to human appraisal of your self has humbled you and Jesus at the end will beckon you to a position at His marriage Supper far better than you expect, due to what you see in yourself. But be that as it may, EARNESTLY SEEK THE THINGS OF GOD< BEG HIM FOR HIS TREASURES INCLUDING TO BE PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION
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Hi doug,
I think I understand where you are coming from. But it is not up to us to decide if we will be in the first resurrection/marriage Supper or do good works or do anything at all, because we have no free-will. Don't you know many men have spent their whole life seeking the truth and never found it? It is only by God's grace that any of us know any truth at all.
Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
v. 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
It's all up to God what we know and when we know it and if we will be used to share this with others. Now we do have a will/desires and make choices, but even those are ultimately caused by Him.
Here is an excerpt from an email.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm -----------
You state: "If God determines our footsteps. . .we have no will." Yes we do. And God even CAUSES our wills to come in line with His. Don't you ever pray: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"? "Not MY will, but THEY will be done"? If our wills are FREE FROM BEING FORCED OR CAUSED OR MADE to do anything, we couldn't even pray these words. That WHY we work out our own salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. Because we, of ourselves, CAN DO NOTHING, as Jesus plainly told us. It is a fearful thing to realize that we can do NOTHING on our own. We only THINK that we can. And if that is what we think then we are fools!
"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, FOR IT IS GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:12-13).
Even the very "words" that Paul is here speaking to the Philippians are inspired OF GOD to CAUSE these people (and us) to RESPOND to his admonition. Words are powerful. Words CAUSE THINGS TO HAPPEN. That's why God uses words:
"The WORD of God is LIVING and OPERATIVE, and KEEN above any two-edged sword, and PENETRATING up to the parting of soul and spirit... and is a JUDGE of the sentiments and THOUGHTS OF THE HEART" (Heb. 4:12).
v
And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds? This time I will let Paul answer:
"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes, NONE of us know tomorrow. None of us know Gods plan for tomorrow. So we have to do our best every moment of every day. We do not know which of our plans, if any, will succeed. This is very important. Because we do not know tomorrow we have to do our best to achieve any desired outcome, even if it is Gods plan purpose will and intention to bring it about!!!! The only reason the gold medalist wins the gold medal that God had already long ago fore ordained, is that the drive, the hard work, the effort, the practice, the circumstance was ALL there to MAKE it happen. If any of those causes were not present, NO gold medal. SO God causes all those things, to make it happen.
Yes, in the big picture it is all of God. God creates the drive to work hard, and the acumen to do what others fall short. But we are unaware of his influences. And God PROVIDES CAUSES like a coach that helps keep the athlete on track, to shore up flagging spirit when necessary, to be an encouragement to make it happen!
There is no way that John will EVER be an overcomer if you have the attitude that it is useless to try!!!! Let us be the COACH for one another! Does that make sense? Don’t let this free will understanding becoming a hindrance. Do not let this be. For all intents and purposes, we live our lives doing our best in every situation. That is why we need to pray. We need to pray so God will bring about these circumstances and allow us to become the Overcomers.
I am trying to implore all, including John, that a fatalistic attitude is NOT the correct response to our understanding of no free will. The entire New Testament was written for our admonition to become Overcomers, not to become discouraged because we think we are not included.
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Claudia, for the time I have been reading on this forum and for what I know you, I think you are a very considerate person when posting too. (and also when sharing)
Craig, I think you must see all this coming when making this kind of post, didn't you?
I will give just another perspective, regarding the first posts and the main one, I can also kind of see it on a different way. If we are to care so much for the ones that are starting to read and coming little by little out of the church system. This kind of main post. Could give them some incentive to somehow make it harder for them to come out, and maybe for whatever reason in their mind justify certain wrong doctrines with good deeds, or something of the alike.
However, on the other side this is a forum to discuss this kind of topics, and here is our environment to be able to tell what we silent on other environments that we have to deal with, places where nobody really cares (or get scared) of our points regarding this kind of topics.
And about this pastor making such a good deeds, good for him.
I few days ago I made a post regarding profit, and it got some very good replays, talking about what is common for rich and poor alike.
Still I agree with you Craig, on levels of evil, the actions of this pastor are much less evil than the spiritual drug addicts of The Megachurches.
Moises
15 minutes on their website will show you that they are no different than any other of the churches. This thread should not have been started. Some here are concerned about offending others however I believe posting a link to an article about a false church with the following statement "Looks like this church is starting to get it? I wonder what they are really like?" should be much more offensive to us for the sake of new members and guests. My opinion is this thread should be deleted.
p.s. Marques...You quoted this verse earlier
Matt 18:6, Mark 9:42, & Luke 17:2 whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
however I don't believe it applies here as this church obviously does not believe in the real Jesus. Please correct me if I am wrong.
with love
Scott
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Hi Doug,
None of us know Gods plan for tomorrow. So we have to do our best every moment of every day. We do not know which of our plans, if any, will succeed. This is very important. Because we do not know tomorrow we have to do our best to achieve any desired outcome, even if it is Gods plan purpose will and intention to bring it about!!!!
I couldn't agree more. I do believe that God will cause us to have an all consumming desire for this truth, if we are to endure to the end. The narrow path is not an easy way to go, and we have to be determined to overcome every obstacle that we meet. So His spirit that is indwelling will cause us to seek this truth constantly.
Eph 4:1-3 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Php 2:12 ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
v.13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
I do believe that the fellowship and encouragement at this forum is a great help to us. It helps us to realize we are not alone in this world struggling to overcome, but there are others and we can work at it together.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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15 minutes on their website will show you that they are no different than any other of the churches. This thread should not have been started. Some here are concerned about offending others however I believe posting a link to an article about a false church with the following statement "Looks like this church is starting to get it? I wonder what they are really like?" should be much more offensive to us for the sake of new members and guests. My opinion is this thread should be deleted.
p.s. Marques...You quoted this verse earlier
Matt 18:6, Mark 9:42, & Luke 17:2 whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
however I don't believe it applies here as this church obviously does not believe in the real Jesus. Please correct me if I am wrong.
with love
Scott
Scott,
Everyone has to start somewhere in terms of getting an understanding of God. And God calls people into a church to give them that start. No one believes in the 'real Jesus' when they first open their bibles. That takes time, and again, we all have to start somewhere.
All Craig was pointing out is, that he felt this church may be getting that start. He entitled to his opinion, as are you. I have enjoyed this thread because I believe it helped address a perception that many on the forum have regarding the church. We should remember that God calls His Elect from the church and that is where He calls us from. It's not a longing to go back but a reminder that we should not forget that we were as blind as they were in times past. Just a humble reminder, that's all.
Marques
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Scott,
I'm sorry.. Please don't take all of what I said to be a personal attack!!
I didn't mean to start the new year out ugly....
Kathy :(
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I removed the reply I had put up earlier due to the fact that it felt like a personal attack on Scott and that is not the way of love...so I hope anyone who read that didn't feel the ugliness I felt after having posted it!
Everyone please have a happy and love-filled new year!
Sorry...
Kathy :)
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marques
Nice post. I understand what you are saying. I will drop it.
Kathy
No worries. Maybe I should be a little more careful with my word choice. I will work on that. You don't know me well but let me assure you that I do not think I am better than anyone else. I think I may have been unclear as to what I was trying to say. I was in no way trying to say I was above anyone. Have a good night.
P.s. It did not feel like a personal attack to me. It felt like a passionate response. I have been known to throw a few of those out myself.i
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Thank you, Scott...I guess we do get passionate at times!! :o
Kathy ;)
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This has been a great topic for us all regardless of our opinion at the start i for one have been helped through all of the replies, all is of God.
I was sitting on the carport afew months ago having a refreshment and started thinking about how i could be a better person do more for the Lord if you will because like John theres nothing good in me nothing except the Lord done it.
I do however see some sinful things gradually passing away and i hardly even noticed it as it was happening but the thing is it had to be God doing the work for there is nothing good of myself and as i sat there this is what i felt in my spirit,
When Jesus was on the cross and he said it is finished i started to see what that meant he done it all theres nothing i can do to add to it,and also i felt this as a back up i guess, as John said in his reply.
Remember where Jesus said, "Come unto me you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and My burden is light." Jesus does the work. There is great peace and joy in relying totally upon God for everything. God does it all.
Once in my life I tried to be good and do good. I fell flat on my face. It didn't work out. Why? Because there is no good in me. Only when God showed me my true nature, and that I must rely upon Him and trust Him for everything did I find peace and happiness.,
This is just what God gave me in my spirit,
Come unto me you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and My burden is light." Jesus does the work. There is great peace and joy in relying totally upon God for everything. God does it all.
Thanks John for posting this its nothing but a comformation for me and ever since i started to believed this my burdens are truely very light, so even before God called me in the church while i was in the church and when he called me out of the church and where i am right now today as i try to type is where God wants me and where i will be in the ressurection will be up to God and i'm happy with that also i truly feel FREE,and so even with all this world hits me with daily and believe me its plenty i just try and remember these words(For my yoke is easy and My burden is light." )
Thanks All
Terry
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Yes, NONE of us know tomorrow. None of us know Gods plan for tomorrow. So we have to do our best every moment of every day. We do not know which of our plans, if any, will succeed. This is very important. Because we do not know tomorrow we have to do our best to achieve any desired outcome, even if it is Gods plan purpose will and intention to bring it about!!!! The only reason the gold medalist wins the gold medal that God had already long ago fore ordained, is that the drive, the hard work, the effort, the practice, the circumstance was ALL there to MAKE it happen. If any of those causes were not present, NO gold medal. SO God causes all those things, to make it happen.
Yes, in the big picture it is all of God. God creates the drive to work hard, and the acumen to do what others fall short. But we are unaware of his influences. And God PROVIDES CAUSES like a coach that helps keep the athlete on track, to shore up flagging spirit when necessary, to be an encouragement to make it happen!
There is no way that John will EVER be an overcomer if you have the attitude that it is useless to try!!!! Let us be the COACH for one another! Does that make sense? Don’t let this free will understanding becoming a hindrance. Do not let this be. For all intents and purposes, we live our lives doing our best in every situation. That is why we need to pray. We need to pray so God will bring about these circumstances and allow us to become the Overcomers.
I am trying to implore all, including John, that a fatalistic attitude is NOT the correct response to our understanding of no free will. The entire New Testament was written for our admonition to become Overcomers, not to become discouraged because we think we are not included.
Hi Doug,
I've been following this Thread since it's inception and wasn't inclined to comment until reading Your Post above. Many perspectives from a variety of angles were shared, but some of the points you share in the first half of the above Post are from a perspective that I considered sharing. Now that You have brought these points to this Thread, I'd like to provide a few additional points along this line.
It's True that All the CAUSES in each of Our individual lives are Predestined down to the smallest details and those particular CAUSES will lead to the only possible CHOICE We could have made in each and every situation. However, as You bring out, We don't know What Tomorrow will bring and What specific CAUSES God has in store for us, even One Hour from Now.
To add to this, Ray has explained the distinction between RESPONSIBILITY(God's responsible for everything regarding His Creation) and Our being ACCOUNTABLE for Our Thoughts, Words and Actions; Romans. 14:12; Matthew. 12:36,37. We are Accountable for Our Choices, because We desire to make them. We are Accountable for each and every Sin We commit, because We desire to commit them, even though there are CAUSES that lead to these Sinful Choices. Below, I included a few excerpts from Ray's material regarding RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY. I think that this Email, Copied and Pasted below, covers this very well from all angles. I only included Ray's Response and will highlight certain points that emphasize what I mean.
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
A few points gleaned from Ray's Response in the above Email.
1) But God doesn't do this directly. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.
2) Evil Men like Raping just like Evil Theologians like stealing widows Social Security Money. God doesn't make them do it, THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They Volunteer with little outside influence,
Anyway, I thought that this Email response covered this nicely.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Craig and all,
I looked at the website and read the Pastor's article twice. It made me wonder how much real sacrifice he had personally made. I examined my thinking carefully but did come to the conclusion that any sacrifice for the right reasons is CHRIST honoring. I am certain that I would not agree with the theology of this church, but I do feel that the aid they offer is of much benefit to those in need and that GOD has HIS hand in all matters. I do pray that this serves as an example to other churches to move in the direction of sacrifice for others.
I still contribute to the Benevolence Fund at my wife's church knowing that it does aid those with real needs. I am also thankful for my time in the institutional, organized, denominational system which led me to really search for the truths I found in Ray Smith's teachings. I will always believe that all is of GOD.
Phil3:10
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God will reward what is done in secret.
Why all the publicity?