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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on January 28, 2011, 06:54:39 PM
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Hi Everyone,
I have been perusing threads and the one theme that has stuck with me the most right now is how some of us can at certain times become frustrated, angry, maybe even doubtful or antagonistic toward God, maybe all of the above...
Myself included.
After speaking with a Brother yesterday about our faith, our tenacity for obtaining Truth and spiritual growth and how the world with all of it's horrific injustices, lying, self serving leaders of government (all governments, all political persuasions) and the incendiary cheer leading from some in the many media outlets that inflame carnal passion (the hateful kind). We found that both of us had been drawn into worrying about tomorrow, letting the world trouble our spirits.
Have we not been clearly warned, advised, commanded not to do this?
Maybe you are not drawn into political discourse but rather, the day to day hassles we experience, no job or a crappy job perhaps with course coworkers and/or a boss who plays favorites and does not readily appreciate or praise the consistently good (or better) work we might do.
Maybe it is how (we presently perceive) the unfair burdens placed along ours paths, whatever they might be...
You know the particulars of what troubles you.
Knowing that these are not new feelings and that the patriarchs and prophets of the OT especially, and even the apostles (Paul included) devoted many words to this dark, bumpy, hazard filled path we journey on, sometimes we wonder or cry out, WHY?
Why doesn't God open our eyes wider to see more completely what is the real purpose of this whole trip?
What is the reasoning? In plain, simple language thank you very much.
Why must there be all this anxiety, pain, suffering???
What is up with all the secrets, hidden wisdom and all of that?
We just might have the answers...
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. (Read this one a few time and meditate on it)
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
Psa 119:73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may that I may learn thy commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments(G1785), and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
See that? "Keep my commandments" (and then He will manifest Himself to us?). So is He speaking of the 10 commandments? So if we don't (physically) murder, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness etc. He will give us a deeper knowledge and relationship with Him?
I know, too many questions...
Or is it something else?
Look at the Greek root of G1785 which appears in John 14:21, it is a bit more than commandments, it is all of what our Physician has shown us;
G1785
ἐντολή
entolē
en-tol-ay'
From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.
OK, I think I might be getting something here, if we want more wisdom, a deeper insight and a better understanding of the purpose of all this and perhaps a deeper glimpse into the mind of God, we just might want to obey (ALL of) what He has shown us so far, when we get there He just might (no, He promised to) manifest* Himself to us!
MANIFEST
1: readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight
2: easily understood or recognized by the mind
Hmmm...
So if we use what He has given us up to right now, if we live within the wisdom He has shown us presently, if we diligently follow Christ's example, we are promised even more of a revelation of God, a deeper understanding of His plan and purpose for all of us. Sounds like a fair deal. Doesn't it?
Think about it, did we get more privileges (or a higher allowance) as a child before we met the obligations our parents set before us?
Did we get to high school before graduating grammar school?
Promoted to a better job before mastering our present job?
You get my drift...
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Glad you came back. I asked about you before and, told that one I hoped you came back. He agreed.
Now as for what you said. I agree about that. The problem is we look to the outside. I was told to look inside and would see what caused all my problems. I did. Horrified at what I saw. The false charges and all the lies about me. I caused all of them. Wow, who is to blame? ME! God caused nothing that happened to me I did. Forgiveness? As much as I prayed to forgive them I deluded myself into thinking I had. One night at a store the cashier named Dawn said you are full of anger. I said what! She said you have not forgiven people. I had said or done nothing to show her this. Almost a year later. They were forgiven. It took that long to teach me. Now if I think of them I would love to embrace them. A lot of difference. I contacted several and told them I was wrong and was sorry for what I said. Did not seem to be a bad saying.
So the problem is deception.
All of us place everything on the outside. God is not interested in our outside. It is what is in the heart. How we think. What we think.
Christianity blames satan. This place blames God. Yes, God is all in all. He does not cause us to do the things we do.
Raise a rock and He is there. See a tree, He is there. He is in everything. So He is all in all.
I see many false statements here. A little leaven leavened the whole lump.
There are several ideas on this forum that are not right.
We are told to put on the mind of Christ. He was not critical, jugdemental, condemning, and never got angry with God.
Can we see the mind of Christ here? Answer it for yourself.
Consider this and see if it is correct.
Spell Check satan with a S (not)
Again welcome back Joe
In Christ Jesus Love and grace to all
Ken
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Hi Joe,
Glad you came back. I asked about you before and, told that one I hoped you came back. He agreed.
Hi Ken,
Thank you!
Now as for what you said. I agree about that. The problem is we look to the outside. I was told to look inside and would see what caused all my problems. I did. .
I can't totally agree that you "caused all your problems" but I can understand that the choices you made once you were "caused" to deal with certain situations left you in a bad place.
God caused nothing that happened to me I did.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Lam 3:9 He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.
He may beg to differ Brother...
Hi Joe,
Forgiveness? As much as I prayed to forgive them I deluded myself into thinking I had. One night at a store the cashier named Dawn said you are full of anger. I said what! She said you have not forgiven people. I had said or done nothing to show her this. Almost a year later. They were forgiven. It took that long to teach me. Now if I think of them I would love to embrace them. A lot of difference. I contacted several and told them I was wrong and was sorry for what I said. Did not seem to be a bad saying.
So the problem is deception.
It is true that most of us are very easily deceived but I sincerely believe that often the root of our spiritual stagnancy is impatience and our own expectations, we are on God's timetable He is not obligated to ours. The sooner we realize this the more we are at peace with our particular circumstances. I am not saying I myself hold true and fast to this all the time as I am an impatient bullheaded beast all too often, but usually after a period of humbling and being caused to consider all the ramifications of my own choices (not free will but decisions made within a finite set of choices) I understand that seeking to follow His "prescription" is the only cure for our spiritual shortcomings.
All of us place everything on the outside.
Once again I have some agreement but I cannot say this is an exclusive truth, some of my very worst moments are when I forget I am forgiven and I obsess over things I have done in my past, confessed and asked forgiveness for, if my faith was stronger I would believe (consistently) that these things were behind me, I realize then that I have still a very far road to travel.
Outside events can and do have a very profound effect on us when we ignore our Lord's admonishments to "not be troubled..."
I see many false statements here. A little leaven leavened the whole lump.
There are several ideas on this forum that are not right.
Ken, perhaps you could be more specific here, I certainly would not dismiss what you say out of hand or by loyalty to any man but that is a very easy accusation to make without more details to define exactly what it is you are speaking of.
All here are in need of having the old leaven being purged from us bit by bit, there are few who would dispute this.
We are told to put on the mind of Christ. He was not critical, jugdemental, condemning, and never got angry with God.
Can we see the mind of Christ here? Answer it for yourself.
Consider this and see if it is correct.
Spell Check satan with a S (not)
The mind of Christ is our goal, not our present state, I do not think anyone was able to make that claim here in the flesh, did any apostle, or did Paul ever say they possessed the total mind of Christ? Did any of the writers of the Gospels or any scripture proclaim they had arrived at spiritual perfection?
Jesus was critical of His own disciples (if you need chapter and verse I will provide them upon request) He was critical of the Pharisees, Sadducees, the leaders of the Synagogues especially and He was critical of those who love their life here in this world as well.
Spell Check satan with a S (not)
This might well be a matter of personal taste as the proper English would have anyone's name with a capital first letter, even that old serpent Satan or satan... ;)
Peace to you Brother,
Joe
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Hi,Joe
I agree what you said,and I would like to add a analogy,there is a movie called
"Ground hog day" starting Bill Murray;
we start off the same way when God starts working with us,
than as days go by, after day, after day, and so on ,we should be learning and fine tuning
our character.
Until a day we wake up and see who really was in control of our growth,and become thankful.
And It's easy to look to much on self and what the world has to offer.
But I wonder, if we would look and see what we do have now,it would be more than,well lets say
people from 2000 yrs ago,they would say we live like royalty, as kings and Queens,would they not?
So in closing,mediation, reflection, and humidity is the order a the day.
Philippians 4:11 (New Living Translation)
11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have.
Walt
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I blame global warming for that humidity, Walt.
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Hi,Joe
I agree what you said,and I would like to add a analogy,there is a movie called
"Ground hog day" starting Bill Murray;
we start off the same way when God starts working with us,
than as days go by, after day, after day, and so on ,we should be learning and fine tuning
our character.
Until a day we wake up and see who really was in control of our growth,and become thankful.
And It's easy to look to much on self and what the world has to offer.
But I wonder, if we would look and see what we do have now,it would be more than,well lets say
people from 2000 yrs ago,they would say we live like royalty, as kings and Queens,would they not?
So in closing,mediation, reflection, and humidity is the order a the day.
Philippians 4:11 (New Living Translation)
11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have.
Walt
yes indeed I can and do relate to this movie/analogy often
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Hi,grapehound
You got me. ;D ;D
I am hoping it gets warmer soon in us.pa.
Walt.
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Hi Joe and welcome back to BTF, always did get some meat out of your input and its easy to see that you still have the fire within.
I've read what you said here a few times over last night and again this morning. I definitely relate to a lot of it as I have been in a spiritual slump for way too long now. It was good for my spirit (not just my eye's) to take in what you had to say and yes, I get the picture.
Then, on the other hand. Reality, which sucks some times, sets in and I struggle with things like the no free will thing, believing it but struggling with it sometimes. Reason I mention no free will is to me, it relates to everything you said here.
Yes we have been warned.
Then some like me, go and do the opposite anyway. Why? <- See there I went and done the Why? I know we have to actually do the doing part of our journey even though we are caused to do it but dang it, it surely ain't just that simple or is it. Sometimes I think, just live and everything will fall into place and other times its, no, I gotta do this thing or that, speaking of the learning process, but there is no drive or desire to do it. Why? Well, if I'm on the right track in my thinker, because I have been caused to not have the desire or want to! <- Is this right?
Yes we should know well that in order to get to a higher level of understanding, the level we are on must be mastered first. I totally agree but what part of that is under our control? None of it. So as much as I really appreciate what you said here and agree with it I'm still stuck in a dry place but I am thinking on it harder now and that is a good change that I know happened after reading your post here so, I really do thank you for your thread. I'm gonna read it again.
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Hi Walt,
One of my favorite Bill Murray movies, he has had quite a few good ones in my opinion. Caddy Shack is probably my #1 though, an all-star comedy lineup in that one!
Back to Groundhog Day, he had a big advantage in that every day was exactly the same in regard to the series of events he dealt with and overcame, we have to deal with unforeseen new issues, some from way out in left field, totally unanticipated. Imagine the "perfect" day any of us could eventually have if we had unlimited do overs.
Hey, maybe that will be what the LOF is like! Probably not...
Peace,
Joe
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I blame global warming for that humidity, Walt.
Hi Grape,
Global warming is so 2001 Brother, don't you know it is "Climate Change" now? That term tends to cover everything. You know I must be way too young (56 y/o) to remember when the weather, every day of every year was exactly the same... Gee, kind of like Groundhog Day!
We have come full circle here. ;D
Hi,grapehound
You got me. ;D ;D
I am hoping it gets warmer soon in us.pa.
Walt.
Walt, if it makes you feel any better it is 70 degrees, nary a cloud and very sunny here in Florida!
Peace Brothers,
Joe
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Hi Joe and welcome back to BTF, always did get some meat out of your input and its easy to see that you still have the fire within.
Hi Stacey,
Thank you very much for the kind words Brother!
I've read what you said here a few times over last night and again this morning. I definitely relate to a lot of it as I have been in a spiritual slump for way too long now. It was good for my spirit (not just my eye's) to take in what you had to say and yes, I get the picture.
Then, on the other hand. Reality, which sucks some times, sets in and I struggle with things like the no free will thing, believing it but not struggling with it sometimes. Reason I mention no free will is to me, it relates to everything you said here.
Yes we have been warned.
It is true we do not have free will but we do have certain decisions to make within a finite set of choices caused by circumstances totally outside of our control. We really don't even have any guarantees that the decisions we do make will turn out as we hoped. Of course there are always those pesky unintended consequences that rear their ugly heads all too often...
Just as Solomon prayed for godly discernment when he became king, we should be doing the same, I fail at this as often (probably more often) than anyone else but after the conversation with my friend I realized that the root of my stunted spiritual growth was due to falling back into old habits that tend to lead to frustration, anger and even hate, not exactly spiritual fruits.
Then some like me, go and do the opposite anyway. Why? <- See there I went and done the Why? I know we have to actually do the doing part of our journey even though we are caused to do it but dang it, it surely ain't just that simple or is it. Sometimes I think, just live and everything will fall into place and other times its, no, I gotta do this thing or that, speaking of the learning process, but there is no drive or desire to do it. Why? Well, if I'm on the right track in my thinker, because I have been caused to not have the desire or want to! <- Is this right?
You are not alone, Paul also spoke about knowing what is right yet doing what he had come to hate, he lamented over his own failure to be true to his beliefs consistently, it keeps us humble and keeps us striving if we do not forget the goal. But if (like me) we constantly do things we know are not beneficial to our spiritual growth how can we expect to grow spiritually?
It is kind of like bemoaning the fact that we cannot lose weight yet make it a point to take a stroll through the bakery every day. We have some decisions to make within the limited choices we do have available to us. Can we with our "free will" make bakeries disappear? Can we with our "free will" impose upon the bakery to only make low calorie healthy sea weed pastries? Obviously not. But we can decide to walk past the bakery without strolling through or we can make an even more radical choice to take a route (maybe walking an extra block or two in the process burning more calories) that would not even put us into a close proximity of that dastardly bakery. I will bet a dozen donuts that God will not grab you by the ear and drag you inside... Although down the road He just might cause you to have to be near the place and make another decision from the choices available.
Yes we should know well that in order to get to a higher level of understanding, the level we are on must be mastered first. I totally agree but what part of that is under our control? None of it. So as much as I really appreciate what you said here and agree with it I'm still stuck in a dry place but I am thinking on it harder now and that is a good change that I know happened after reading your post here so, I really do thank you for your thread. I'm gonna read it again.
I do believe we have a role in this process, if not why didn't He just create a bunch of remote controlled androids to amuse Himself with? He desires children who only want goodness and to share His Mind and Love, He has determined our experience of evil in this present existence will bring that desire to fruition, we will come to a point where we thoroughly despise evil.
Do I claim to understand His "strange work" completely? No. But what I have been reminded of is that if we deal faithfully with the (very limited) knowledge we have been given so far then more understanding will be our reward!
Thank you for the thoughtful testimony, questions and observations, this really helps me to get a better understanding as well.
Peace Brother,
Joe
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Also been considering this thread. An illustration: My dad had a good sense of humor and outlook. When his kids (my sisters and I) were young and complained about our aches and pains, sniffles and twinges, one of his favorite replies was to say "That's what happens just before you die."
Remembering that makes me think of this walk having much more to do with dying than with living. Being crucified with Christ, the seed falling to the ground and dying, reckoning oneself dead, dying to self, and many other truths that might not 'say' death, but Spiritually mean the same thing. This is the point I am at, have been at, and will likely be at for a while longer. Faith tells me to hang on. It was the Father's will that Jesus die. He was obedient even unto death.
Heb 12:1-4 ...let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Nope, I haven't resisted Spiritual sin to the point of Spiritually shedding my blood. That would mean dying, and who wants to do that? Yes, indeed, it is a strange work He is doing. Pretty danged strange to say he who looses his life shall find it, and for Paul to say, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live."
Seems there is another kind of death, maybe, unless I'm just not getting it. It's the death that comes from being carnally minded. In his later years, my Dad's sense of humor and good outlook faded under the assault of religion, politics, and media much like your OP mentioned.
If it was easy to figure this stuff out AND do it, seems like some denomination or another would have done so by now, written it in a pithy statement in their creed, and taught it succesfully in Sunday School. Hasn't happened in 2000 years. That's the way God planned it.
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This no free will thing is certainly difficult to nail down, for any of us. But what really helps me understand His sovereignty is knowing God is in EVERYTHING!
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him ALL THINGS consist. (NKJ)
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him." (CLV)
Col 1:17 And, he, is before all, and, they all, in him, hold together; (Rotherham)
When you come to where you really comprehend that IN HIM "all things consist" or "has its cohesion" or "hold together," then you can see there is no free will. He knows all things because He is in all things! He knows when a sparrow falls the the ground, He knows the number of hair on your head (Matt !0), why He has named all the stars!
Psa 147:4 He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name.
So yes we have no free will, but God is creating through this incredible human experience a multitude of thinking individual. All of us have varying degrees of interests, likes and dislikes, skills, talents, etc. and that's what a part of this experience is about. In the process of being created into His image through this physical experience He is making us all into different, unique individuals.
Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi John
Don't you think you OVER emphasize the NO Free will truth? I don't ever hear you talk about trying with effort to resist sin, to put forth any effort. What are you going to do with all those scriptures that tell us to WRESTLE, to PUT OFF, to RECKON OURSELVES DEAD, TO PUT ON, TO RESIST, TO RUN THE RACE, TO BE FILLED, TO SEEK, TO SEEK-I say it again-TO SEEK and all those admonitions. I do get the sense that you take your private interpretation of no free will too far. If a fat man feels an impulse to go into the bakery, that he seems to weak to resist, well, its Gods will to go in, isn't it? Go eat, cause your too weak too resist! Dont try to FLEE. Don't wrestle. Go in and sin. With that attitude almost all smokers would never kick the habit of smoking, almost all gold medal winners would of won nothing. NOTHING ON THIS EARTH EITHER PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL THAT IS WORTHWHILE IS ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT GREAT EFFORT> PERIOD. Where is the talk of courage, of striving, of working at it until it is good?
It is true that you have to abide in the vine. But if you were truly abiding in the vine, then your works would be really really good, would they not? The same works as Jesus? If your works are not that good, then you are not abiding in that vine as well as you think. Maybe God will grant those to abide in the vine to only those who really really want it. I do not see any whisker in the New testament about not striving with all our hearts. We are to strive withe all our hearts. I will beg God to make and teach me to hear His voice, to teach me to abide in the vine, to learn that BALANCE between resting in Him and trying with all my heart. Balance, John, balance. We need more balance here.
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Hi John
I think that almost every alcoholic that has been freed from those chains of alcoholism will give the credit to God. They understand and believe that they were powerless and needed to RELY on God to accomplish their deliverance. BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT TAKES GREAT EFFORT ON THIER PART! God while giving them victory does not remove the need to give effort.
Yes, on their own they do not succeed. Many have tried over and over, promised and tried, and failed. But if they are to be rescued, in Gods plan and timing, there does comes a time that God takes them to the point where the desperately WANT and BEG to be rescued. Usually this is when they totally realize they have no power, no strength, and usually, their lives are in shambles. Their beast is dying. They know they are powerless. Then God does intervene in a different way than before. And He does give them the strength, the GRACE to say no, whereas the SIMILAR effort they put forth prior that was not successful now is successful. Effort doesn't go away, it is just that the hold that the beast had is broken, and God makes their efforts fruitful.
They all admit, even after years of being sober, that it is an everyday walk, that TAKES EFFORT!!!!! Great Effort. They have counselors. They have someone they can call. They rely on God everyday. They make a conscious effort to rely on Him. They actively say no every single day. It is more successful than before, as their own private beast struggled and died, at least in that area. So they have learned to rely on God and abide in the vine, but they still give their all.
I reiterate the need for balance. Not a single alcoholic that I know, who has been delivered, says their was no need to struggle or faced/faces times of great temptations that try them severely. You make it sound like we don't need to sweat blood, sweat, and tears. That is false.
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Yes, and Jesus sweat blood in the garden of Gethsaname. And Jesus fasted for 40 days and was extremely hungry. And he was tempted in all points as we are. Even though God did the work, Jesus was the means, and He was very much in the thick of it, and suffered greatly in it, and yet He pressed on through and overcame, persevered to the goal, and pleased His Father. It was no walk in the park for Jesus. Great effort He put forth, even though the Father did the work.
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Those "itty, bitty, little bits" are the bad leaven!
Imperfect information distorts perception, and produces conflict.
Wisdom turns away, accompanied by sympathetic insight and considerate understanding.
Milk and meat don’t mix, is an experience we have to all suffer to endure learning.
God’s the Author of all.
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Hi Everyone,
Ray explains the difference between "making choices" and having (non existent) "free will" right here;
The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all........................
It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.
Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:
Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
Free from "CONSTRAINT."
Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
Free from "FATE."
Free from "DIVINE WILL."
Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.
Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."
We are not speaking of "Hal" in the Hollywood science fiction fantasy: "2001—A Space Odyssey." Computers do not have "free wills," yet THEY CAN MAKE CHOICES, but those choices are anything but free. Their choices are all a matter of PRE-programming. They cannot think and act independently of "causes." Neither can man think or do anything outside of the realm of "causes." In order for an effect to be present, there must first be a cause, and once something is caused, the effect must follow, and neither could have been prevented.
There is not one example that can be presented by scientific a method, that can demonstrate that man’s will is free from causality. Neither is there an example in all Scripture that can be shown to be the exercise of a will that is free from causality. And that certainly includes all that our Lord Himself ever thought, said, or did.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
Peace,
Joe
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I thought it would be a good thing to add this (also from "Free Will" Part 1)...
It is helpful to reread the articles from time to time.
I have said and taught for decades now that God never FORCED anyone to sin or go against whatever their will is at the precise time that his will is changed by a cause. Men volunteer to sin. They don’t need to be "forced"—they are SINNING MACHINES! Most men (not all) can be made to sin at the drop of a photograph. (That is, if the photograph is that of a sexy young lady in high heels and a mini-skirt). He doesn’t need to be ‘FORCED’ to lust and sin over the young lady, even though it may not have been his conscious will TO LUST just prior to seeing the sexy photograph.
Who created man with such passions and desires? Dah! Who created Testosterone?
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
Peace,
Joe
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Very well edified Joe!
Our choices are our preferences.
Our preferences arise from our heart condition.
Our experiences purge to strengthen, our weak hearts.
God writes our circumstances to purge and purify our preferences to bring us into right standing with Him.
Potter and the Clay.
Arc
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Hi Everyone,
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
so if we use what He has given us up to right now, if we live within the wisdom He has shown us presently, if we diligently follow Christ's example, we are promised even more of a revelation of God, a deeper understanding of His plan and purpose for all of us. Sounds like a fair deal. Doesn't it?
Think about it, did we get more privileges (or a higher allowance) as a child before we met the obligations our parents set before us?
Did we get to high school before graduating grammar school?
Promoted to a better job before mastering our present job?
You get my drift...
Peace,
Joe
Hello Joe,
I couldnt help but notice something I hadnt before, In the verse you had quoted,[Psalm 119-2] does the blessing come BEFORE the knowledge...or After?....Think about it!
Is it Bless-ed is....or just plain Blessed! Obviously the blessing IS keeping His Testomonies, And if your blessed, then I reckon It is not by our choice....see what i'm saying?
Chris R
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Very well edified Joe!
Our choices are our preferences.
Our preferences arise from our heart condition.
Our experiences purge to strengthen, our weak hearts.
God writes our circumstances to purge and purify our preferences to bring us into right standing with Him.
Potter and the Clay.
Arc
Amen to that Arc!
Peace,
Joe
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Hi John,
We are held accountable for our actions for good reason, because we desire from our heart to do the things we do. Yes God is the ultimately responsible, but we are the one who choose to do what WE want to and will be held accountable. Here is an email that explains this.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----
[Ray Replies]
Dear Chris:
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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You know, as I reread through all this banter, specially between myself and John, I think it is the word "effort" that seems to be the hangup. I think that No free will and great effort coexist quite peacefully, and they do not contradict. Just because God arranges the causes, we still decide from our hearts condition, which God is very well aware of. And God does not do the actual lifting, so to speak. He makes us actually DO IT! It is in the doing that great effort can be required. It was very tough and took great effort for Jesus to carry out what God inspired Him and gave Him the heart to do. God never takes away the doing.
Ray has said this many times. From the opposite side, from an evil work, God may arrange the causes or circumstances that are in action when a child molestor does his ugly stuff. But God can hold and does hold the molestor accountable because he sins VOLUNTARILY. He sins from the heart, and his actions spring from his heart, even though it was inevitable that he would do what he did. He still is guilty, not God. God is not at fault or the sinner in the situation. Even though He steers eveything. The means, the man, still does the actual action, and this action requires effort, energy, and all that is required in doing an action.
My point still is the Bible is full of admonitions that we MUST judge ourselves against and strive to do. The Bible is a cause in this instance. As God changes our hearts, and gives us the strength, we can fulfill the admonitions and do the works. But we DO not know how far we are away from this obedience unless we try to obey. We must always try to obey, and more and more try to learn how to depend on God and let God, through this, change us so our preferences are the same as Jesus preferences. We MUST WRESTLE< IT IS NOT BIBLICAL TO NOT TRY TO OBEY>
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Hi Chris!
Great to hear from you Brother, it has been at least a couple years...
In regard to your comment I guess it would depend on what the definition of "blessed" is, in this case it is defined as happy.
H835
אשׁר
'esher
eh'-sher
From H833; happiness; only in masculine plural construction as interjection, how happy!: - blessed, happy.
But I think even if we use the broader definition or what immediately comes to mind when we hear the word blessed, that is "shown favor" or
given a gift, or born with an incredible talent, etc.
We might say both of your premises hold true, if anyone is given a certain amount of faith or wisdom and they do not exercise that faith or wisdom (or both) do they retain it? Do they continue to grow in faith and/or wisdom. However if these things are embraced by the receiver then the ensuing result would be an increase of these things.
The parable of the talents come to mind...
Matthew 25
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Peace to Brother and I am very glad to see you here posting!
Joe
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Great find on the email Kat!
Doug I am in total agreement with you Brother, I believe you nailed it!
Peace,
Joe
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My dad had a good sense of humor and outlook. When his kids (my sisters and I) were young and complained about our aches and pains, sniffles and twinges, one of his favorite replies was to say "That's what happens just before you die."
Hi Dave,
I like your Dad already! My family also had a wry humor without regard to over sensitive young egos... ;)
Excellent post all the way through Brother.
Peace,
Joe
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You know, as I reread through all this banter, specially between myself and John, I think it is the word "effort" that seems to be the hangup. I think that No free will and great effort coexist quite peacefully, and they do not contradict. Just because God arranges the causes, we still decide from our hearts condition, which God is very well aware of. And God does not do the actual lifting, so to speak. He makes us actually DO IT! It is in the doing that great effort can be required. It was very tough and took great effort for Jesus to carry out what God inspired Him and gave Him the heart to do. God never takes away the doing.
Ray has said this many times. From the opposite side, from an evil work, God may arrange the causes or circumstances that are in action when a child molestor does his ugly stuff. But God can hold and does hold the molestor accountable because he sins VOLUNTARILY. He sins from the heart, and his actions spring from his heart, even though it was inevitable that he would do what he did. He still is guilty, not God. God is not at fault or the sinner in the situation. Even though He steers eveything. The means, the man, still does the actual action, and this action requires effort, energy, and all that is required in doing an action.
My point still is the Bible is full of admonitions that we MUST judge ourselves against and strive to do. The Bible is a cause in this instance. As God changes our hearts, and gives us the strength, we can fulfill the admonitions and do the works. But we DO not know how far we are away from this obedience unless we try to obey. We must always try to obey, and more and more try to learn how to depend on God and let God, through this, change us so our preferences are the same as Jesus preferences. We MUST WRESTLE< IT IS NOT BIBLICAL TO NOT TRY TO OBEY>
Hi Doug, as I was reading aloud the back and forth between you and John I said to my wife, I believe they both right and agree with each other but I don't think they are agreeing to that yet! :)
Really enjoying this thread.
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I know this thread has gone in a bit of a different direction than the original post, but as I was checking the verse listed in the latest e-mail to ray "Homeless" I came across these verses which I think add a witness to what Joe was originally saying. Funny how that happens huh?
Isaiah 58 - NIV
1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD?
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
With love
Scott
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God gives us BOTH, the desire to obey, AND the outcome.
Paul explains what it is like to try and fail, and to try and succeed.
The trying/effort, is caused by God.
THAT we try, is not trivialized or dismissed. It is simply of God to try or not to try ~ to succeed or not to succeed.
I am happy to see you again ChrisR! :)
Blessings
Arc
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But I perceive the truth to be that 100% comes from God.
Absolutely, I agree and do not think that either Joe or Doug was saying anything otherwise. Even though the effort and ability is caused by God, we endure the process to succeed or fail in all our endeavors what ever they may be we still have to do the doing part of it (effort) no matter the fact that God is causing us to do it, we have to go through the process of Him doing it all.
I believe that every bit of what has been said does apply to Joe's initial post.
Some of us are angry and disgruntled at God, some of us have lost our way and fallen back into old habits and it is God that has brought about the circumstances that caused us to make the choices we have but it is also God that has laid down the law for us to obey His commandments, to want to, to desire to, to put forth the effort, to PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE from our current position, to SEEK FIRST THE FATHER for help to get back to Him and move on from not obeying His commandments and then, we will see improvement in our current status and relationship with God.
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Jesus is Lord. I'll cop guilty to every sin I ever committed (and I'm far and away more perpetrator than victim). I know I'm accountable and that 'to sin' is my natural state. I am completely capable of sinning (in the falling short of the mark sense) even when I don't really want/mean to.
But I don't believe I can be accountable for righteousness. Even faith is a gift...and it's not even MY faith by which I'm saved/healed, but his. For righteousness and Christ-likeness and bearing the fruit of the Spirit (and any other Scriptural expression of the same thought), I am not capable, even when I want to. No amount of exertion is sufficient for that, except "struggling to enter rest". I don't for a minute believe that "rest" is eternal retirement in heaven. I believe it's keeping that Spiritual Sabbath and ceasing from my labor.
So I guess my dilemma is in trying to figure out just what it is I'm supposed to be striving for. I confess I don't really understand all of what those words mean. I'm just pretty sure they don't mean what the traditions of men and theologians say they mean.
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Amen Dave,
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I know this thread has gone in a bit of a different direction than the original post, but as I was checking the verse listed in the latest e-mail to ray "Homeless" I came across these verses which I think add a witness to what Joe was originally saying. Funny how that happens huh?
Isaiah 58 - NIV
1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD?
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
With love
Scott
Hi Scott,
What you posted is an absolutely awesome additional witness to this topic.
I want to thank you and every single person who posted as it has all been beneficial...
I have more comments to make but I can't right now.
Thanks again Scott and everyone else as well,
Joe
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When we understand that we have no control and that God has total control, the centre of our confidence shifts from ourselves to Him. So it's only in our weakness that we are truly strong, because it's His strength we must rely on and His strength is boundless.
We are loved in our weakness. We must decrease and He must increase.
Grape
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Hi John
That was a nice email from Ray that you posted. But let us read it carefully. I will quote the part of the email that DIRECTLY pertains to a statement you made which I feel is extremely dangerous to say. This is the quote from Rays email which is the correct understanding and I do not believe your belief is in line with this.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
How could Ray say it any clearer than that? NO GOD DID NOT IN REALITY KILL 6 MILLION JEWS AS YOU STATED. NO evil corrupt men, evil Hitler, evil camp guards, evil commandants, out of THE EVIL IN THIER HEARTS...they killed 6 million Jews. You have just blamed God by attributing this evil work to Him, DIRECTLY. You said QUOTE...However, in reality, it was God the Father who killed the six million Jews..........I would NEVER EVER say such a thing. EVER.
God may have planned that such would happen. He may have arranged circumstances to show the intense evil in these peoples hearts. God full well knew what they would do. BUT GOD did not do it. THEY DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They did the actual work and they showed evil in their hearts and they are accountable and God is NOT the one who actually killed those jews.
God as the First and sufficient cause, does take responsibility and took responsibility at the cross, for all the evil acts that men would commit. No question. And praise Him for that. And our wills do bend to the strongest cause, and the strongest cause usually is our exceedingly sinful hearts.
But I would be a lot more circumspect in your language and in what you say. I would not blame God for my evil acts or any evil acts of anybody. I am accountable, not God.
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God is responsible for everything and everyone.
We are accountable. We shall give account for ourselves.
That is a beautiful connection God has designed that connects us intimately, personally and irrefutably, to His Mercy, Pity, Love and Sovereignty ~ but who will know it?
Arc
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John and Doug,what say Scripture concerning our reason for being...
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Its all of God...
Peace...Mark
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accountable - liable to account for one's actions; "governments must be accountable to someone beside themselves"; "fully accountable for what they did"; "the court held the parents answerable for their minor child's acts of vandalism"; "he was answerable to no one"
responsible - chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually fol. by for ): Termites were responsible for the damage.
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Everything goes down the way God intends it to go down. Everything. but all the sinning that takes place as God worketh all things according to the counsel of His will? All voluntary. Every sinner sins unforced by God, voluntarily. Hence the giving an account.
God doesn't FORCE anyone to sin. Hence we are all must give account. In Josephs case, God caused Josephs brothers to hate Joseph by giving Joseph dreams that angered his brothers and also gave Joseph favored status with his father, which raised jealousy in them. Knowing the hearts of the brothers, and arranging events, it was easy as pie (for God) :) to have Joseph thrown into a pit and sold to slavery in Egypt by his brothers. That was all of God. For a great purpose. But God did not force his brothers to do the evil they did.
I think this is the side of the teeter totter that is easily overlooked when we say everything takes place according to the counsel of His will. Everything does take place according to the counsel of his Will. But God does not tempt anyone, they are drawn away of their own lusts.
Arc wrote a beautiful summation statement, IMHO. It spoke to me deeply. ....That is a beautiful connection God has designed that connects us intimately, personally and irrefutably, to His Mercy, Pity, Love and Sovereignty ~ but who will know it?...
I know it Arc...I just want it pointed out, some of those above subtleties, which I believe are easily overlooked, but are very important. I apologize if I came on strong, but I really believe it is a very important distiction to keep in mind. God bless you all.
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Ray has already written so much about these things, so I just look for the particular parts that match up with what is being discussed. I think this section in the article 'The Synagogue of Satan - There's One Near You' will go along with this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -------
God is both the Creator and User of many forms of evil, and yet is without sin and not evil, Himself. God uses evil for good. And this is a prerogative that only God uses righteously 100% of the time.
Why do I spend so much time on this subject of evil’s Authorship? Because it is one of the most import truths in the whole world! It is the answer to maybe the most colossal enigma in all creation—Why is there, and must there be, evil in the world? Let me state with all humility that no theologian who believes that Satan is the author of evil, can ever explain why God put evil in the "tree of the knowledge of GOOD…"!! They might attempt a feeble explanation if God had put evil in its own tree, but not when God put it in the same tree with good! God is responsible for not only all the evil in the world, but God is responsible for EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE, and God is the most responsible Being in the universe. Just Who’s responsible for this mess? God is! And just Who’s going to clean up this mess? God is!
v
NOTHING HAS EVER GONE AGAINST GOD’S PLAN OR INTENTION
No thing, and no body, in the entirety of the universe have ever gone against God’s "intention" or His preordained "plan," even when God Himself has caused many to go against His stated "will." God’s will is going to be completely realized at the consummation of all His intentions and plan (will and intention are not one and the same). It is God’s intention that men go against His will. So what may appear to be a failure in God’s dealing with mankind is nothing of the kind. All that happens was intended to happen, and all that does not happen was not intended to happen. Here is wisdom.
We have seen that not even Satan can go against God’s intentions. Satan needs permission from God to do his dirty work. Since God is responsible (but not accountable—seeing that nothing He does is without a great and beneficial purpose), God takes responsibility for His whole creation, and that is why everything will turn out perfect for every one of God’s creatures.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This has been a good thread but alas it has jumped the track of the original topic and turned into debate. We'll lock it now.
Free will is a tough subject to grasp, if someone wants to start another thread on it that would be fine, Ray has spent alot of time covering this topic.