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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: worm on April 10, 2006, 06:09:21 AM
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hey guys,
one thing I've realised when coming to the realisation of UR, is that there is NO MORE "US" and "THEM"...
it is alarming for me to still find on UR sites people referring to others as "they do this"..."they do that"..."thank God I'm not so blind anymore as them"..."they are perverting the word of God" etc etc
shouldn't the more "enlightened" ones be just that...a light in the darkness? but without pride, without being "superior"...but in love...like guides of light towards the bigger Truth?
shouldn't we strive to build bridges for people to safely "come out of Babylon"?
shouldn't we have the heart, mind and love of Christ for ALL people?
yes, even "those in the Harlot" system?
if we can't even love our brothers who are still drinking milk, how are we to love the unbelievers?
as God loves us ALL unconditionally, no matter whether we are chosen, elect, harlots, unbelievers...His plan is to save us ALL...we're not ALL on the same path...not yet...but we WILL be :D
so NOW...there's only "US"..."THEM" should be no longer in our vocab
anyway, just had to get this "off my chest" :wink:
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well i still see a "them" and an "us"
them = bondwoman, us = freewoman
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son : for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
many (them) are called and few (us) are chosen
but yeah i agree all is of God
but i wouldn't want to point that out you think there is no them and us to Stephen
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
f
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well i still see a "them" and an "us"
them = bondwoman, us = freewoman
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son : for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
many (them) are called and few (us) are chosen
but yeah i agree all is of God
but i wouldn't want to point that out to Stephen
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
f
Yeah me too. I still see a "Them" and "Us" also. 8)
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Worm,
I see it as us too.
The message of UR though new and exciting to most here, is still the milk of the word. The message is so much more. To die daily to self, to overcome, to have Christ's spirit truely working in us is the meat of the word.
And to that goal I am striving, like all of us.
Romans 8:
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Blessings!
Craig
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Seems to me these "them" were the Corinthians, who Paul died daily for. He encouraged, instructed, and his life was to preach the milk-Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Head knowledge of coming out of babylon is not the same as experential coming out. Unless each of us can say we are completely out, then we are yet carnal too.
2Co 4:11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. This was his attitude to the "them"
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the grace, being multiplied through the many, may cause the thanksgiving to abound unto the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is for the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is for the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus;
1Co 1:6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
(even though carnal)
1Co 1:7 so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:8 who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able;
1Co 3:23 and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
In love, thru death to self, life is given to "them"
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Amen Craig & Rocky!
the Scripture you quoted speaks for itself :D 8)
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1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob [chosen] have I loved, but Esau [called] have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Rev 17:14 These ["them"] shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they ["us'] that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
The word "continue" in the above scripture is the same greek word translated "abideth" in the scripture here.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Now back "to those Jews which believed on Him".
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal [aionios] judgment. [UR]
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Deedle :D
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I agree with ya, worm. The way I see it, I can do nothing of my ownself and am not worthy to see what I see now. Just because I see clearly now, does not make me any better than the ones who don't now. Also, the day will come when they also shall see clearly.
It all boils down to having a love for our neighbor and forgiving our enemies. God loved us while we were blind, so we should love our other brothers who can not see clearly now.
I was once where they are now, yet now by the grace of God I see the light. God is no respecter of persons and I from the knowledge given shall not see my other brethren in a different perspective, for I am no better than they.
It's all in Gods own due time.
God bless,
Gary
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hey guys,
one thing I've realised when coming to the realisation of UR, is that there is NO MORE "US" and "THEM"...
it is alarming for me to still find on UR sites people referring to others as "they do this"..."they do that"..."thank God I'm not so blind anymore as them"..."they are perverting the word of God" etc etc
shouldn't the more "enlightened" ones be just that...a light in the darkness? but without pride, without being "superior"...but in love...like guides of light towards the bigger Truth?
shouldn't we strive to build bridges for people to safely "come out of Babylon"?
shouldn't we have the heart, mind and love of Christ for ALL people?
yes, even "those in the Harlot" system?
if we can't even love our brothers who are still drinking milk, how are we to love the unbelievers?
as God loves us ALL unconditionally, no matter whether we are chosen, elect, harlots, unbelievers...His plan is to save us ALL...we're not ALL on the same path...not yet...but we WILL be :D
so NOW...there's only "US"..."THEM" should be no longer in our vocab
anyway, just had to get this "off my chest" :wink:
I understand your point. As a new convert so to speak, I find my outlook still to be them and us, but I feel different spiritually.
No longer will my witnessing be influenced by trying to "Save someone from the oncoming Truck" rather a message of truth and love to others.
My "them and us" references does not carry with it the negativity it once did. At least I do not believe so. I am more than willing to be shown, with scripture, an error in my comments around here, that is for sure.
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1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob [chosen] have I loved, but Esau [called] have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Rev 17:14 These ["them"] shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they ["us'] that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
The word "continue" in the above scripture is the same greek word translated "abideth" in the scripture here.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Now back "to those Jews which believed on Him".
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal [aionios] judgment. [UR]
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Deedle :D
I think Paul did a great job of hating the world (the churches sin, the pride, the adultery, the fornication, the law keeping), but loved the person so much he died daily for their salvation. He lived his whole life humbled by God for the salvation of the world (church).
Christ is the savior of the world. Christ in us.
1Cr 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. (Paul came to them, yet he himself had come out)
1Cr 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. (Paul is the fellow worker, to the field (world/church)
1Cr 4:14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. (the church, carnal man, his beloved children)
1Cr 4:15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet {you would} not {have} many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
1Cr 4:16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
1Cr 4:17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy (again, he sends Timothy to them, the very ones we are to be out of) who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.
2Cr 1:6 But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;
2Cr 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you with many tears; not so that you would be made sorrowful, but that you might know the love which I have especially for you.
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hey guys,
one thing I've realised when coming to the realisation of UR, is that there is NO MORE "US" and "THEM"...
Hi worm, I see what you are saying. While I do think there is an "us" and a "them" there is some good fruit in what you are saying:
2 Corinthians 5
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
THAT is what it's all about. We are separated from them, no doubt about it. I have NOTHING to do with Church get-togethers and services and so on, but our ministry is reconciliation. God knows where that line is, and it takes a walk with the Spirit to know where to draw it.
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1Cr 4:17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.
Does anybody else find it interesting that Paul went to churches, he sent his people to churches, to the carnal Christians for one reason; preach the gospel of Christ and for there salvation.
Seems to me we are to come out of babylon, be seperate, but take the message of reconciliation to babylon.
Christ is the savior of the world. The world is babylon. Christ in us, takes the message to them.
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as God loves us ALL unconditionally
is it a love of sickly sweet emotion or is it
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
exactly how did Jesus love His enemies
by glossing over their wickedness ? or did He tell them the truth ?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
He that is of God = us
ye are not of God = them
f
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as God loves us ALL unconditionally
is it a love of sickly sweet emotion or is it
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
exactly how did Jesus love His enemies
by glossing over their wickedness ? or did He tell them the truth ?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
He that is of God = us
ye are not of God = them
f
he healed them, cast out their demons, fed them, hung out with them, invited them to spend time with him, called them to follow him, and for the the ones that needed it, he rebuked them.
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he healed them, cast out their demons, fed them, hung out with them, invited them to spend time with him, called them to follow him, and for the the ones that needed it, he rebuked them.
and how did they repay Him ?
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
you speak of the them He healed
the them He cast out demons
the them He fed
i don't think that was entirely the same them He said this to
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
f
this is the them i'm concerned with
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
f
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Hi y'all. He must increase I must decrease. AS this happens I think that I will be more patient, kind, gentle etc with the us/them. Both sides are using scripture-I guess I see it as us=all people that believe in Jesus wherever they are on the journey; them=people that hate Jesus or don't give a care one way or the other. Me= I am to love my enemies. UR believers= should be happy & blessed more so than anyone.
PS Ray may have an unction to scold, criticize, rebuke as he teaches. He is good at it, and has been called. Most of us have not! I am glad that while I was gone the E Mail forum can't be posted on anymore.
Anyway, good to be back. I sure missed everyone. (It is taking me a long time catching up-lots of good stuff on the forums.)
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he healed them, cast out their demons, fed them, hung out with them, invited them to spend time with him, called them to follow him, and for the the ones that needed it, he rebuked them.
and how did they repay Him ?
Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
you speak of the them He healed
the them He cast out demons
the them He fed
i don't think that was entirely the same them He said this to
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
f
this is the them i'm concerned with
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
f
So have you come out of babylon fully, have you overcome all your giants? If you are not confident you have completely donethis, then let the mature cast you out too and me too.
Again, I think Paul does a wonderful job in I Corinth. and II Corinth of explaining how we should deal with the immature.
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Ertsky, I hear what you are saying. What we need to be mindful of is that we were "them" in the past, and only by the grace of God are we the "us" now. The day will come when the "them" will also be "us", and God will be all in all. We always have to be mindful of the "is, was, and will be" spiritual aspects of scripture.
To put people in their varying degrees of their walk into different categories can seem offensive to the carnally minded who have not yet reached maturity. After all, we were there ourselves.
The many called and the few chosen are still both Christs. The chosen now are being judged and chastised by God now and the many called will have to go through it when the day comes. There is no escaping His judgements.
Me, being a sinner, reformed by the Lord, do not see myself as being any better than anyone else, whether called, chosen or whoever. I know it is only by the grace of God are my eyes opened. I know you know these same things also. We are to serve and to minister to those if called upon to do. I have not set foot into a church building in a long time, for I have heard our Fathers name and character slandered enough. I understand these people are only deceived.
That's my take on this and don't mean anything disrespectful towards you. I have come to the point it ALL boils down to loving God and our neighbor. I only wish to be the same towards my neighbors, whether friend or foe, in the same way God was and is towards me. This is my goal in life.
God bless,
Gary
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just to make it plain
judge not is NOT a license to permit heresy
love your enemies is NOT an excuse to have a love in with a wolf
grace is NOT a sin permit
maturity is NOT an excuse to not rebuke error when commanded
IF YOU SEE ERROR and do not sound an alarm what kind of Brother are you ?
f
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AMEN TO YOUR WORDS. LOVE ALL. BE HUMBLE AND GIVING TO ALL. NOT SOME. ~KAREN~
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just to make it plain
judge not is NOT a license to permit heresy
love your enemies is NOT an excuse to have a love in with a wolf
grace is NOT a sin permit
maturity is NOT an excuse to not rebuke error when commanded
IF YOU SEE ERROR and do not sound an alarm what kind of Brother are you ?
f
Amen. I agree. Paul never slept with the called, but in love he came to them, cried for them, prayed, encouraged, and pleaded for them to be imitators of him. In his self death, life is given to them. He became all things to all so that Christ was preached.
We are to be ministers of reconciliation (to babylon), but how do we do this; if everyone that is on milk is considered a wolf?
Is there a difference between a wolf and a baby sheep? Baby sheep need milk from us; wolves are to be starved by us?????
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I can see both perspectives as true, like 2 people looking at a different side of the same coin.
Jesus gave us an example, how He treated the multitudes, and how He treated the Pharisees. The former with tenderness and longsuffering, with the latter He called them on their hypocracy, and haughtiness.
Yes, we nurture those who are humbly seeking Him.
We call out lies and deception and a haughty spirit.
We shouldn't mimic those who accuse and disrupt, but ask questions that bring out the truth of their motives.
Joe
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I can see both perspectives as true, like 2 people looking at a different side of the same coin.
Jesus gave us an example, how He treated the multitudes, and how He treated the Pharisees. The former with tenderness and longsuffering, with the latter He called them on their hypocracy, and haughtiness.
Yes, we nurture those who are humbly seeking Him.
We call out lies and deception and a haughty spirit.
We shouldn't mimic those who accuse and disrupt, but ask questions that bring out the truth of their motives.
Joe
I agree, i think we are saying the same thing. Ertsky is seeing the carnal man that has been deluded to never move on to maturity, and yet preaches his belief as it is truth (this imho is a wolf). Yet many are called that are being humbled and will move onto maturity. Our job is to lay the foundation, and let God do the rest.
All the called thru the foolishness of preaching will move on, if God permits.
If we look at every called person as a wolf, how do we take the message of reconciliation to them?
Only God knows there heart and their time for coming to perfection.
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If I sounded an alarm everytime there is error, I would be a crazy man by now, with all the err in this world.
I, simply do not wish to cause any division. When someone has a different opinion than mine, so be it. That is okay with me, it does not hurt my feelings, because I am founded upon the Rock. The foundation that I previously built has already crashed down, now it is not my foundation but His.
I guess, to you, I am not much of a brother, but that is your opinion and I do not answer to you. I do not understand the hostility, but it is nothing new, the true love of God and the love for the ones who eyes have not been opened, is hard to understand for most.
When in the spirit, it's about the "is, was and will be". Past, present and future. I hold nothing against anyone who does not believe as I do. Because the day will come when the knowledge of the Lord will be everywhere and there will be no need for anyone to teach anyone.
I am past the accusatory stage of christianity, of which the gracing of our Lord has showed me. I am just a small part of the many brethren and sisters, whether they be yeah or nay right now, but in the end ALL my brethren and sisters will one day be YEAH. If you know what I mean.
I don't know if you have a problem with me personally, but if you do please voice it, so I will know where you are coming from. This form of communication over the web can have its difficulities, seeing that it is easy for one to easily misunderstand another.
As far as I go, there are no hard feelings in my life to noone. It is a whole lot easier to forgive and forget. I will be the first to admit, this took God a long time to burn that out of me and come to realize we are all just the clay, He is the potter. I am no better or no different than any of the other clay God is working on. His goal is the same to all. And His will be done, no matter what you or me might think.
God bless,
Gary
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Hello worm, everyone,
I would appreciate some help with some concepts. Please point me to where I can read up on this and please pardon my ignorance.
Here goes:
I thought that coming out of babylon meant coming out of the world, including but not necessarily just organized religion.
Further, I thought that coming out of the world means living your life in the spirit of Christ, continuously dying to the carnal and gaining life in the spiritual.
Lastly that this is a continuous process until the day our human flesh physically dies.
Our goal is to come out of babylon for which we strive through God's will and grace yet maybe never quite completely accomplish.
Does this mean that we are all in varying degrees still in babylon trying to escape? If so, I'd say there is only us.
Please let me know the extent of my ignorance in this regard.
Thanks in advance
feat
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1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob [chosen] have I loved, but Esau [called] have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Rev 17:14 These ["them"] shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they ["us'] that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
The word "continue" in the above scripture is the same greek word translated "abideth" in the scripture here.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Now back "to those Jews which believed on Him".
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal [aionios] judgment. [UR]
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Deedle :D
music to my ears Deedle
f
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Isa 21:9
And behold this! Coming is a chariot with men, a pair of horsemen! And he is responding and saying, `Fallen! Fallen is Babylon! And all the carvings and her forbidden idols are broken to the earth.'"
Isa 47:1
Down! And sit on the soil, virgin daughter of Babylon! Sit on the earth, not on a throne, daughter of the Chaldeans! For no more shall they call you, `tender and delicate.'
Isa 47:2
Take a millstone and grind meal. Expose your draped form! Bare your skirt! Expose the leg! Pass over the streams!
Isa 47:3
Exposed shall be your nakedness! Moreover, apparent shall be your reproach! I will take vengeance on you,
Isa 47:4
and I will not interpose a human!" says our Redeemer. Yahweh of hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 47:5
"Sit still, and come into darkness, daughter of the Chaldeans, for no more shall they call you, `Mistress of the kingdoms.'
Isa 47:6
I was wroth over My people, and I violated My allotment, and was giving them into your hand, yet you show them no compassion. On the old you make your yoke exceedingly heavy.
Isa 47:7
Yet you are saying, `For an eon will I be mistress still!' You do not lay these things to heart; you are not mindful of your hereafter.
Isa 47:8
And now, hear this, luxuriant one, dwelling trustingly, who is saying in her heart, `I, and only I, further! I shall not sit, a widow, nor see bereavement.'
Isa 47:9
Yet now these two shall come to you in a moment; in one day, bereavement and widowhood, suddenly they shall come on you in your many enchantments, in the staunchness of your magic charms, exceedingly.
Isa 47:10
And you are trusting in your knowledge. You are saying, `No one is seeing me.' Your wisdom and your knowledge, it turns you back. And you are saying in your heart, `I, and only I, further!'
Isa 47:11
And evil comes on you. And you are not knowing of the pitfall. And woe shall fall on you. You cannot shelter yourself from it. And coming on you is devastation, and you cannot become clear. And coming on you suddenly is futility, when you shall not know it.
Isa 47:12
Then stand, pray, by your magic charms, and by your many enchantments, with which you were acquainted from your youth until today. Perhaps you can benefit! Perhaps you will be staunch!
Isa 47:13
You are tired with your many counsels. Standing, pray, are they, and saving you are the astrologers, the seers of visions in the stars, the informers for new moons, from the things which are coming on you?
Isa 47:14
Behold! They all become as straw. Fire shall burn them up. They shall not rescue their soul from the hand of the blaze. It is no ember to warm them, or light to sit in front of.
Isa 47:15
So they become to you, those with whom you labored, your merchants from your youth. Each man strays to his passage. No saviour is yours.
Harryfeat, there a few scriptures that describe babylon. This has been a hot topic here, but it seems to me it's not just the churches and not just only self, but a combination of them both.
Worldly religion definetely plays its part in babylon, but also the false idea of self plays a great role in babylon. Notice that God is saying babylon is saying "I and only I and "your" knowledge and "your" wisdom".
Truth is, if this were MY life, that would have to mean that I was somewhat responsible for my existence. The life I have is not my own, it is His to do as He pleases.
God bless,
Gary
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Harryfeat, there a few scriptures that describe babylon. This has been a hot topic here, but it seems to me it's not just the churches and not just only self, but a combination of them both.
Worldly religion definetely plays its part in babylon, but also the false idea of self plays a great role in babylon. Notice that God is saying babylon is saying "I and only I and "your" knowledge and "your" wisdom".
Truth is, if this were MY life, that would have to mean that I was somewhat responsible for my existence. The life I have is not my own, it is His to do as He pleases.
God bless,
Gary
Hello Gary,
Thanks for the response. Maybe it is ALL about self and God's will for us. Babylon is just an obstacle in our path. Let me explain what I mean through an analogy
We are put on this earth and start travelling a road. The road leads us into the world and through the babylon . Babylon ensnares us and we are deceived and distracted from the truth. The road through babylon is like a never ending maze. Some but very few of us make it to the gates leaving it behind.
Isn't it all about how we deal with finding the truth and learning to become more like Christ.
I am still confused about babylon whether it represents the world we are to come out of which includes organized religion or is it just the religion.
Thanks
feat
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Harryfeat,
Hello, I can certainly understand the confusion on this subject, seeing there are so many different interpretations. It's so easy to show scripture to support both sides of many different beliefs, yet now we know in part.
Most importantly, whatever it is we come out of, now we are to move on to maturity which is to develope the kind of love God has for us. And to show this kind of love towards others. I believe this is paramount and the basic foundation to the gospel of Christ.
Although now we see in part, we have the assurance through faith, which is a gift from God, that the day will come we shall have a full and complete knowledge of our Maker.
Sorry, I can't give you a more full explanation of this, yet when we know of the love of God and then proceed to show this to our fellow man, then I believe we have definetly come out of babylon.
God bless,
Gary
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someone once said that "people will never listen to you until they know how much you care"...or something like that
I'd rather deal with my fellow brothers and sisters, whether they are called or chosen or faithful or churchgoers or non-believers, in the spirit of love...there is no greater power in the universe...cause God Himself IS love...that way I'm always sure that I act in a Godly (Christ in me) way towards ALL people...
when did this rebuking everybody that doesn't agree with you thing started? and who's to say the rebukers have all the answers?
a few posters have tried to justify that there should be division between people...isn't this the very model that was shown to us in the churches?
a lot of churches reckon they are right, and only them...and have all the knowledge..and all the blessings...and any other church is just not cutting it..and I see the same with websites (or internet churches as I call them)...not even the most prominent UR sites agree with each other's doctrines...
I'm sick of people proclaiming they walk with Christ but then judging others according to their own beliefs...or where they are at at the moment...
I agree with Orion77 when he says that he sticks with loving God with all his heart and his neighbour like himself...if we can't even carry out that simple command of Christ...what then of the called vs chosen vs us vs them and all doctrinal issues...these things don't matter...
if we don't have the LOVE...we have NOTHING...cause God IS LOVE
plain and simple
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I am still confused about babylon whether it represents the world we are to come out of which includes organized religion or is it just the religion.
hey Harryfeat,
the way I see it is...Babylon is a condition of the heart (I explained in the thread Church vs Babylon)...evil and confusion starts in our hearts, and it is from there that we have to come out of first and foremost...if its a Spiritual thing that is...well, that's what I believe...
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I have to share this here. I used to have a pretty bad drinking problem as a teen-ager. Thank the good Lord He intervened and I stopped a long time ago. Several years after this, we felt a need to go into the local bar. We didn't have a drink except cola but sat down with some patrons and chatted with them. All that we talked to made the comment to us that " ya'll are Christians right? Why do you want to even sit and talk with me, a drunk?'. We were not there to preach to anyone and just said to them that God is working in all our lives and that He will take care of us all at the end. We were asked why we were not ashamed to talk to them and why God even would care about some bar goers. Our response was that we were honored to have these individuals be willing to spend time with us and not be ashamed to talk to us! We also told them that God sees no difference in any person and had a pleasant evening. The sad thing was the wonder of the patrons that we were not ashamed to sit with them and chat. We are all still " a work in progress". We are all still loved by God. For anyone reading... that evening was another example of why the "churches" in our area don't welcome my husband or myself.
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When I come upon one who doesnt see as I do. I do not treat them different, I love them. They love Jesus, as I love them. Jesus has not openned their eyes to see. There are people who do not know Jesus or go to Church. They are apart of this world. I befriend them, but I do not go to there level. I only answer questions that one asks me, if they do not ask, I do not force what I believe on no man. Jesus said I am the Light and the Salt of the earth. That I should leave my life through Him. to be a example to others,by how I live. There has been a time I battled with a man. To find the Lord telling me to back away. I wasnt going to get that person to believe the way I did. I love all and when the spirit says to back away I do. God knows the hearts of all this people. Thats why He said to pray for all. Thats what I do. Father, thy will be done in this world. Let His will be done in each individuals life. ~Karen~
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I am still confused about babylon whether it represents the world we are to come out of which includes organized religion or is it just the religion.
hey Harryfeat,
the way I see it is...Babylon is a condition of the heart (I explained in the thread Church vs Babylon)...evil and confusion starts in our hearts, and it is from there that we have to come out of first and foremost...if its a Spiritual thing that is...well, that's what I believe...
Spiritual babylon, with the beast on the throne. Pride, deceitfulness. Yeah, I agree.
Praise God for his grace, that in His timing, kicks the beasts butt. As gmilk earlier said; i must decrease so he must increase. I thank God for mature men/women who have not thrown me out and trampled on me, but have gently pulled me along.
These men never once "hopped into bed with me" and drank of the whore, but they did love me with the love of Christ. They were seperate, yet present. I only hope that as I mature, Christ in me will do the same. Christ (in and through me) administering reconciliation.
Mike V is a great example of this, his love is expressed in his emails to me. Just like his conferences; isnt' he preaching to babylon. I highly doubt that everyone at a conference is fully mature and out of babylon. I'll bet he even has lunch with them too.
Christ in you, our hope of glory.
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Mike V, his love is evedent for sure.
hey rocky, what me pull a rabbit outa my hat ;-]
(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)
love
chuckt
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Mike V, his love is evedent for sure.
hey rocky, what me pull a rabbit outa my hat ;-]
(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)
love
chuckt
LOL
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Mike V, his love is evedent for sure.
hey rocky, what me pull a rabbit outa my hat ;-]
(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/magic/6.gif)
love
chuckt
Hello euty,
Boris and Natasha send their love. Me too.
feat
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if we don't have the LOVE...we have NOTHING...cause God IS LOVE
plain and simple
Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Heb 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching [chastening] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Tit 2:15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Paul rebuked in love.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Co 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
1Co 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
Rebuke, chastening/discipline are all a part of true love. As my wife always says; "love is an action".
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
In Love :wink:
Deedle
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It is a typical trait for someone being rebuked to say that the one who rebukes is not doing so out of love. That is sad. I have never been rebuked in that way by Ray, but he did straighten me out pretty quickly on a couple things. I listened, and he was right.
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(((Paul rebuked in love.)))
amen, i bet we all can qoute abunch of scriptures for our point of view.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Cr 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness?
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
frank is right, lets be carfull but not fearfull.
if we are grounded and rooted in love nobody can take that away, and we can stand in Christ and let the sword do the work.
peace
chuckt
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if we don't have the LOVE...we have NOTHING...cause God IS LOVE
plain and simple
Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Heb 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching [chastening] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Tit 2:15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Paul rebuked in love.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Co 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
1Co 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
Rebuke, chastening/discipline are all a part of true love. As my wife always says; "love is an action".
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
In Love :wink:
Deedle
These scriptures are great examples. Be seperate, don't revert back to whoredom, yet teach, rebuke, encourage, exhort etc. Loving your enemy doesn't mean don't interact with them. Through the foolishness of preaching, those God has opened their ears will hear. Thank God while I was an enemy to Him, he seeked me out.
Aren't we to be bring the message of reconciliation to the world?
My thots are how are we to do this if we don't preach, encourage, rebuke, exhort with the called?
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There is a difference between rebuking or admonishing in LOVE and doing so out of spite or a sense of spiritual superiority. And appearances and intentions can often-times be misunderstood - on both sides of the 'argument'.
That's why I think we should be careful about "labeling" or "marking" people (ie. heretic, wolf, etc). Especially when there is more in the way of common ground than in differences.
Some here are 'new' to the teachings of BT's and for some it is 'old hat', but regardless of our level of knowledge or spiritual maturity, we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord, if it so be that we are all seeking after the truth and after the Father and the Son. He must give the increase and until that happens we are where we are and it IS "by the foolishness of preaching" that the blind and deaf are healed.
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Chrissie
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Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
:)
f
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Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
:)
f
Goes both ways doesn't it? :wink:
Sure is how I was made to feel. :cry:
And I am "like-minded", so I can imagine how others who are not or who have questions are made to feel.
We shouldn't be quick to 'label' others. Labels are harmful, not to mention often-time misleading and/or completely inaccurate when given in haste, especially in this type of environment.
That was all I was trying to say.
Sorry, I can see that any comments from me on this particular subject are not going to be well-received. I will not comment on it again.
Chrissie
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There is a difference between rebuking or admonishing in LOVE and doing so out of spite or a sense of spiritual superiority. And appearances and intentions can often-times be misunderstood - on both sides of the 'argument'.
That's why I think we should be careful about "labeling" or "marking" people (ie. heretic, wolf, etc). Especially when there is more in the way of common ground than in differences.
This is true. We should be very careful in labeling. I tend to shy away from it myself. You can tell a wolf by their receptivity and their intent. To me a wolf in sheep's clothing is posing as one thing and is being another with no intent to learn, even if giving that appearance. It is all about giving lying appearances. This is not the same as a person who has an honest desire in their heart for His truths, even if they disagree at the moment. Coming to the truth is a process and we cannot expect immediate results. I find sometimes that some people (not necessarily here) tend to get impatient and frustrated if someone is not accepting right away what is so obviously true.
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O.K Folks I think we've beat this horse long enough, time to put him to bed.
:D :D