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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Becky on June 08, 2006, 10:59:50 AM
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I don't know why but I am saddened by this... for some reason this news made me see reality... america has killed their enemy.. they are happy, and applaud... so does president bush... i am sad because i see that killing back and forth is so messed up.
Sorry to bring in politics... but i brought it up because it hit me this morning :(
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Yeah i know its disgraceful. Whilst he was a bad person i guess being the head of much of violence in Iraq, the political hypocrisy from the west stinks.
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i think i am most sad becuase i am that person who wanted them all dead at one time! I am also the terrorist who was killed today... guilty of all!
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amen bobby!
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Becky it is so amazing how God can change our heart and mind from hate to LOVE and FORGIVENESS.
I too wanted to see them pay for what they did but inGod's eyes are we not just as guilty as they are.
In the books of John does it not say that to hate your brother(neighbour) was compared to murder.
May God cleanse the terrorist in all of us.
bobby
Bobby
Amen , it IS murder.
Oppossed to where Christ states whom you do THIS to the least , you do this UNTO me.
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These verses in Proeerbs come to mind. It's really stuck with me as I replay the events of 9/11
17Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
18Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
19Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked:
20For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
21My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
22For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
23These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
24He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
25But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
26Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
27Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house.
28Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.
29Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
30I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;
31And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
32Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.
33Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:
34So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth; and thy want as an armed man.
That's why the Lord admonished his disciples on the sermon on the mount, "to LOVE your enemies". I think the Lord is displeased with anyone who delights in the death of any terrorist. They are vessels of dishonor and we must learn to allow Jesus to teach us (PAINFULLY I might add) to LOVE them for they know not what they do. Vengence BELONGS to the Lord, not the government.
Ches
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Good Word Chez and Isabell
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
GOOD works are the Labour of Love
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
works of faith and the labour of Love.
1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the Light
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
1Thes 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;but faith which worketh by love
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ok, good stuff here.
everything is going exactly according to God's plan.
Eze 32:25 They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves [are] round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of [them that be] slain.
Eze 32:30 There [be] the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
my point being, while its sad and this world is evil and darkness abounds.
God is working it out.
i am not making light of this thread.
Ecc 7:1 A good name [is] better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth
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thank you! i didn't forget but it is good to remember!
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With God On Our Side
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land I live in
Has God on its side
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the civil war too
Was soon laid away
And the name of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side
Oh the First World War boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you can't count the dead
When God's on your side
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered 6 million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on our side
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One shot of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side
In many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side
So now I'm leavin'
I'm weary as hell
The confusion I'm feeling
Aint no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war
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that is wonderful, thanks for sharing!!!
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amen
Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
Psa 46:9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
GOD will do it.
both physical and spiritual wars :wink:
Jam 4:1 From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members?
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I'd still like to spit some beachnutt in that dudes eye, then shoot him with my old 45. Please stop it with all the lovey dovey crap. If he or anyone else did harm to your or mine family members, we would DEMAND his head on a platter, you and I are fooling ourselves to think otherwise.
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I'd still like to spit some beachnutt in that dudes eye, then shoot him with my old 45. Please stop it with all the lovey dovey crap. If he or anyone else did harm to your or mine family members, we would DEMAND his head on a platter, you and I are fooling ourselves to think otherwise.
You can always take your point up with the scriptures.
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I'd still like to spit some beachnutt in that dudes eye, then shoot him with my old 45. Please stop it with all the lovey dovey crap. If he or anyone else did harm to your or mine family members, we would DEMAND his head on a platter, you and I are fooling ourselves to think otherwise.
longy,
the world will take care of its own :wink:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
love ya's
chuckt
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Until we see ourselves as... capable of everything in the old Adam;
until we see ourselves as the elder son who despises his father for giving to His prodigal son a ring and a robe:
until we see in ourselves the Pharisees who want to stone the woman who is caught doing what they themselves are guilty of
until we see ourselves as the woman at the well having five former husbands and living in fornication,
until we see ourselves as the ninety and nine who consider themselves to be without sin and needing no repentance,
until we see ourselves as the Pharisee who looks down on others as mere tax collectors
we are not yet even to the point of seeing ourselves as the
prodigal son (elect),
the woman caught in the very act of adultery (elect),
the woman at the well with five former husbands and not married to her present mate (elect).
the lost sheep (elect) or the publican( elect) M.VINSON [I added elect based on the other content in the paper]
This is all a process... and we WILL se ourselves as the enemy, as the untimate sinner, so that by our mercy they will obtain mercy
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I dont think this will turn into a political minefield of corn wielding attacks, but for the record, there are as many people around the world who would want to do exactly the same to Bush and Bliar.
Like i said, the hypocrisy really stinks
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This is all a process... and we WILL se ourselves as the emeny, as the untimate sinner, so that by our mercy they will obtain mercy
Words of Wisdom.
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You and I have seen how fast the LOVE turns to burning rage on this forum if someone responds to a post in a negative way. Give me a break, they had to do away with a discussion format on this board for the backstabbing, and childish name calling alone. Nothing personal, but some of you need to get over the Ray and Mike thing, and MOVE ON. (you know who you are)
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You and I have seen how fast the LOVE turns to burning rage on this forum if someone responds to a post in a negative way. Give me a break, they had to do away with a discussion format on this board for the backstabbing, and childish name calling alone. Nothing personal, but some of you need to get over the Ray and Mike thing, and MOVE ON. (you know who you are)
Peace Longhorn
No bitterness or hard fellings this side.
Where did you get that name ?
Olive Branch is there if you desire to take it?
Every Blessing
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Thanks for reminding me, Becky, about Mike's teaching on the parables.
I am the woman caught in adultery
I am the prodigal son who sold me birthright for a bowl of porridge.
I am the tax collector Zacceaus, who Jesus told to come down from that tree, I want to have dinner at your house. (Temple of God)
I am the sheep that left the fold and God chased after.
I am the chief of sinners as Paul said.
I am the thief on the cross who condemed Christ.
I am capable of every ugly, terrible sin ever committed by any man who ever lived on this planet. When God knocks our arrogance and false pride out of us, we can see others as only God sees them.
I don't know how I would respond if someone tried to kill me or my loved ones. Would I be able to shoot him if I had a gun? I don't know. A year ago I would have said the same thing Longhorn said. Now, I'm not so sure.
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It could also be said that it was God's will to use the US the military to kill him, just as God used military force in the Old Testament to punish Israel or to use the Israelite army to destroy other groups of people. Not even the US military can go against God's will.
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i think it is our human nature to want to get revenge but the Lord says "it's mine to avenge" not ours... "the Lord will fight for you, you need only to be still"...
it is a hard thing to grasp... but like mike says, it takes a bigger man to turn the other cheek than to deck the guy for hitting you first.... hitting back makes them hit you back, and then you hit back...and nothing gets solved.....
I am still working on this myself, and I pray that one day, i will not feel the need to get back at my sister for being a jerk, or my husband for forgetting my birthday (for example) and those examples are so small compared to someone killing someone I love...
We'll get there everyone, just be patient and DONT GIVE UP! :)
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i think it is our human nature to want to get revenge but the Lord says "it's mine to avenge" not ours... "the Lord will fight for you, you need only to be still"...
Reminds me of something the late Rich Mullins said: "I know 'Vengence is mine, thus saith the Lord,' but I just wanna be about the Lord's business!" :lol:
That feeling is typical and natural. Only God can burn it out of us. I, for one, still have a way to go. :(
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Longhorn those people were my family and loved ones.
Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matt. 5:43-48
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
bobby
excellent post!!!!!
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……Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said, (they didn’t say, ‘O king live forever’ and butter him up…) “O King, Nebuchadnezzer, we’re not careful to answer in this mater�….. Look the gig is up! You know you’ve got to decide right now, who are you going to serve: the flesh, or God?? When you get down to business with casting out the Canaanites out of the land, you don’t make deals with them, you kill everything that breathes; you kill them all! [speaking of the carnal self] That’s where they were. They knew … there was no negotiating going on. “we’re not careful to answer you in this matter. If it be so our god whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand O King, but if not�…, What if he doesn’t? What are you going to do then? “Be it known unto you O king, that we will not serve your gods, no matter what, nor worship the golden image which you have set up.� Now listen, someone walks up and slaps you in the face, and you know, I hope God doesn’t try me in this way. But if they do, what are you going to do? Think about it! This isn’t just talk we’ve got going here.. this is the truth of the word of God. What do you do when someone actually threatens your life? You turn them your other cheek and you love your enemies and you don’t return evil for evil; hard to receive… I’m not denying that. (It is) impossible to do! I’m not denying that. I just truly believe that when the time comes to have to endure these trials, we can be Shadrach , Meshachs and Abednegos. It takes a whole lot more of a man to turn the other cheek, than it does to deck the guy! Now that’s the truth! That is the truth; those are the words of Jesus Christ. So you need to think about theses things. You need to be realistic of what our calling is. Sit down and count the costs before you get started and realize, that God is not going to have someone ruling in his kingdom…ruling….. he is not going to have a bunch of teenagers who aren’t serious about obedience, ruling the world. He’s going to have people who have been there and done that; who have lived Genesis 1:1 through Revelations 22: “The sum of his word�. That’s who is going to be there. And I believe that by the grace of God that it just might be you, and I hope I’m there with you.- M. Vinson
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I wrote down what mike said in the last couple of minutes from the link before...
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no prob... i thought it was perfect for this thread!!
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Most excellent posts & Scriptures from everyone (including Longhorn)!
With all that has been said, I believe there are other Scriptural considerations. Now keep an open mind (not so open that when you bend over your brains fall out :wink: ) & heart. Just open enough & soft enough to hear God's Word.
Starting with
Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and in thick rising smoke: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue is as a devouring fire:
Isa 30:28 and his breath is as an overflowing stream, that reacheth even unto the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and a bridle that causeth to err shall be in the jaws of the peoples.
Isa 30:29 Ye shall have a song as in the night when a holy feast is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and the flame of a devouring fire, with a blast, and tempest, and hailstones.
Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be broken in pieces, which smote with a rod.
Isa 30:32 And every stroke of the appointed staff, which the LORD shall lay upon him, shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with them.
Isa 30:33 For a Topheth is prepared of old; yea, for the king it is made ready; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
Verses 27, 28, 30 & 31 speak of the burning anger of the Lord being released, & His voice of authority being heard. How will He do this? The answer is in-
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a
minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
Regarding Verse 4 (above)-Because of this mandate the civil government would be in disobedience not to bring wrath on those who do evil because it is given the sword for that purpose.
Should we retaliate because of the Lord's exhortation to turn the other cheek when struck? I believe we need to understand that civil governments have a different mandate than the mandate the Lord gave to His church & confusing these two mandates has brought considerable confusion.
The church is given a different mandate. We are told to love our enemies. We will be in disobedience if we try to use the sword against them instead of loving them. We must keep these two mandates separate & clear if we are to walk rightly.
The Lord is preparing His church for ruling in the age to come, but we are not called to rule in this present age. That mandate has been give to civil governments until the Lord sets up His kingdom on the earth. Civil governments are "a minister of God" that "does not bear the sword for nothing," but is "an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices
evil."
What about the Christian who is serving in a position of civil authority, such as a policeman, soldier, mayor, president, or even a school principle? In these cases we must keep our two mantles of authority separate. While on duty, one must be willing to use the sword. While not on duty, or serving the church in ministry, we must lay the sword aside to seek the anointing of the Holy Spirit to do the work of the ministry.
Can Christians do both? Remember that King David, who was the only one about whom it was said that he was a man after God's own heart, was one of the greatest warriors & one of the greatest worshipers in all of Scripture. Sometimes it is by seeking the balance between extremes in our life that we are led to the straight & narrow path that leads to life. If you are a policeman, or soldier on duty, do not hesitate to use the weapon that the state has given to you. If you are serving in ministry, we have a greater sword that we must use for the truth.
As the remaining verses in Isaiah state, great punishment from the Lord is coming upon those who do evil, & there will be great rejoicing because of it. There is rejoicing whenever the Lord exercises His authority on earth, & it is right to rejoice in the judgments of God, as we read in-
Psa 98:1 <A Psalm.> Sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvelous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath wrought salvation for him.
Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the nations.
Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his faithfulness toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: break forth and sing for joy, yea, sing praises.
Psa 98:5 Sing praises unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp and the voice of melody:
Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the King, the LORD.
Psa 98:7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein;
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap their hands; let the hills sing for joy together;
Psa 98:9 Before the LORD, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.
Peace you guys :)
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M
Thank you for the Input .
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Those that live by the sword also perish by the sword.
Abe Lincoln: assasinated (civil war)
John Kennedy: assasinated (cuban conflict,start of vietnam war)
Ronald Regan: attempeted assasination (bombed terrorist camp)
Plus others that were assasinated in other countries that were at war.
bobby
'Tis true Bobby-I hear ya. However, that does not negate what I posted :) . Our paths are predestinated. Some vessels to honor, some to dishonor; some vessels to civil government & its dictactes, some.....not.
Peace
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so true ...so true.
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Those that live by the sword also perish by the sword.
Abe Lincoln: assasinated (civil war)
John Kennedy: assasinated (cuban conflict,start of vietnam war)
Ronald Regan: attempeted assasination (bombed terrorist camp)
Plus others that were assasinated in other countries that were at war.
bobby
'Tis true Bobby-I hear ya. However, that does not negate what I posted :) . Our paths are predestinated. Some vessels to honor, some to dishonor; some vessels to civil government & its dictactes, some.....not.
Peace
I hear what you saying M. :D
We are Not in control of these.
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It could also be said that it was God's will to use the US the military to kill him, just as God used military force in the Old Testament to punish Israel or to use the Israelite army to destroy other groups of people. Not even the US military can go against God's will.
Thank you Sandy for sharing some common sense. :)
So far in this thread I have heard nothing but "war is wrong" or "such hypocrisy, "Bush this or Blair that" (quotes are mine)
However, is God a hypocrite? or is God wrong? Are we all not doing the will of God?
Sure, we are to love our enemies for hating is wrong. But are we not to love our loved ones stronger. Would anyone of us, willingly sacrifice our loved ones because we're so busy loving the person wanting to harm or kill them.
Abu al-Zarqawi, was doing just as God planned. Does this mean God loved him, that maybe he was one of the chosen few? I think not. I believe God blinded and deafened him within his own deceit, he was a murderer and his hatred towards millions of his brothers and sisters (God's children) was insane.
Love him, sure I love him in the fact that he was a living breathing being with a soul, wretched as it was. But that is not enough, not according to the scripture:
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond or free.
Surely preventing death and suffering (car bombings, roadside bombs, kidnappings) of innocent (Gods) bystanders is a good thing
Are we not commanded to put on armor and be prepared to fight for what is right. Right in God's eyes....
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
In my opinion (by his actions) Abu al-Zarqawi was being led by the devil, how many people did his death today, save in the future. I thank God for all the men and women of all nations who worked together to bring him down, for they were all doing God's will.
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hmmmm but the armor is spiritual.....right?
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It could also be said that it was God's will to use the US the military to kill him, just as God used military force in the Old Testament to punish Israel or to use the Israelite army to destroy other groups of people. Not even the US military can go against God's will.
Thank you Sandy for sharing some common sense. :)
So far in this thread I have heard nothing but "war is wrong" or "such hypocrisy, "Bush this or Blair that" (quotes are mine)
However, is God a hypocrite? or is God wrong? Are we all not doing the will of God?
Sure, we are to love our enemies for hating is wrong. But are we not to love our loved ones stronger. Would anyone of us, willingly sacrifice our loved ones because we're so busy loving the person wanting to harm or kill them.
Abu al-Zarqawi, was doing just as God planned. Does this mean God loved him, that maybe he was one of the chosen few? I think not. I believe God blinded and deafened him within his own deceit, he was a murderer and his hatred towards millions of his brothers and sisters (God's children) was insane.
Love him, sure I love him in the fact that he was a living breathing being with a soul, wretched as it was. But that is not enough, not according to the scripture:
Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond or free.
Surely preventing death and suffering (car bombings, roadside bombs, kidnappings) of innocent (Gods) bystanders is a good thing
Are we not commanded to put on armor and be prepared to fight for what is right. Right in God's eyes....
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
In my opinion (by his actions) Abu al-Zarqawi was being led by the devil, how many people did his death today, save in the future. I thank God for all the men and women of all nations who worked together to bring him down, for they were all doing God's will.
Yellowstone,
Uh....that pretty much nails it!
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Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a
minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
Regarding Verse 4 (above)-Because of this mandate the civil government would be in disobedience not to bring wrath on those who do evil because it is given the sword for that purpose.
Well stated mammoth!! I hear you loud and Clear! :)
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hmmmm but the armor is spiritual.....right?
Becky, is it?
Remember what Jesus said:
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Surely NOT putting on armor in accordance to God's own sanctioned governments and thwarting evil so as to protect the innocent (both here and abroad) is blatantly ignoring the wods of Jesus. Didn't Jesus devote much of his humanly life helping those who could not help themselves.
I do not like war, but I DISDAIN EVIL!!!
Does this make sense?
God is love,
Yellowstone
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yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....
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yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....
Jesus submitted Himself to those who were in authority & was teaching Peter to do the same.
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yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....
I'm not sure....what would have happened to history, to us, if Peter had prevented Jesus' capture?
One other point, is not Ceaser, Bush and Blair? Were they not put in their place of leadership by the will of God? Are their actions not of God? If I hate or disagree with them, am I not also hating/disagreeing with God>
I'm not seeing any confusion here, am I missing something; is this not Go's plan. Have not these two men demonstrated to the world that terror will no longer tolerated, and that all of God's creation have a right to live in peace, with not thought of death or harm from others.
Do you think God wants this? Do you think these two world leaders are hurting "the least of these" or helping?
Enough said....much love to you Becky
Yellowstone
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i'm sticking with jesus' command and I guess God will let me know which way to go...someday...
thanks for the food for thought...
(directed to all here): why is it that this is such a debated topic?? (wanting to know why it isn't so "clear" to all and why we're not in agreement??)
:?: :?: :?:
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yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....
Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,
and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/list:u]
Do you see a spiritual application to those verses?
In that the Word of God is a ‘sword’ and that we are to live and die by that ‘sword’ (He came not to send peace but a 'sword' into the earth)… and in that the servant’s EAR was "smote off" by the yielding of the sword ‘out of his place’??
Chrissie :wink:
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John 18:36
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Matthew 26:52
52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Leviticus 19:18
18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (so would i kill myself if i have done wrong, if we are to "hate" our neighbor as ourselves)
Romans 12:19
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (god avenges.... we are not God... let him take care of it)
Luke 18:7
7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Matthew 5:43-44
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (pretty clear-cut to me, but i am only one person here)
Ephesians 6:20
20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak
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yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....
Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,
and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/list:u]
Do you see a spiritual application to those verses?
In that the Word of God is a ‘sword’ and that we are to live and die by that ‘sword’ (He came not to send peace but a 'sword' into the earth)… and in that the servant’s EAR was "smote off" by the yielding of the sword ‘out of his place’??
Chrissie :wink:
oh yeah, i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal... he is very specific about what is included in the armor... the verses that i give... have more than just sword to see as only whe word... matthew's verse is especially specific....
also... we are ambassadors... do ambassadors vote in the country the are visiting..or join the army??? christ said IF his kingdom was of this world, then we'd fight...
he definately said to not resist the government... so who are we to interfere with other country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??
I know that this is God's plan, but we cannot use that as an excuse to join in their evil.. (http://bestsmileys.com/army/4.gif)
why are we any better killing them than them killing us??
"enough said" for me too.... I thank you all for inspiring me to research more and be more aware of the extremely difficuly task it is to be in the "army" of God. :wink:
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Becky, it was just food for thought. I was not speaking for or against the war.
And, no, I do not believe that the armour of God is literal either. :wink:
Chrissie
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no, i know that's waht you were saying... no bad feelings against any here...
it is ALL of God.. it does not worry me. I have no need to prove anything.. all in due time
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I GET IT! WHOOOOHOOOOOOOO! YES!
(http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/6.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/15.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/5.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/bouncing/16.gif)
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yea i see how he helped... but didn't he also tell peter to put away his sword and not save him from the soldiers... peter was doing what we want to do... jesus said to give to cesar what is ceaser but it makes you wonder....
Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand,
and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.[/list:u]
Do you see a spiritual application to those verses?
In that the Word of God is a ‘sword’ and that we are to live and die by that ‘sword’ (He came not to send peace but a 'sword' into the earth)… and in that the servant’s EAR was "smote off" by the yielding of the sword ‘out of his place’??
Chrissie :wink:
oh yeah, i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal... he is very specific about what is included in the armor... the verses that i give... have more than just sword to see as only whe word... matthew's verse is especially specific....
also... we are ambassadors... do ambassadors vote in the country the are visiting..or join the army??? christ said IF his kingdom was of this world, then we'd fight...
he definately said to not resist the government... so who are we to interfere with other country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??
I know that this is God's plan, but we cannot use that as an excuse to join in their evil..
why are we any better killing them than them killing us??
"enough said" for me too.... I thank you all for inspiring me to research more and be more aware of the extremely difficuly task it is to be in the "army" of God. :wink:
Becky,
I want share something with you, by no means do you have to agree, but your thoughts are more than welcome.
You wrote: "oh yeah, i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal"
Why? Who would you blame if the US governemnt / military did nothing since 911. Who would be at fault if every major city in the US and Europe had had devesating attacks and millions of innocents (the least of these) had lost their lives.
Who would be the blame? Would it be Bush or God. Of course one can blame Bush, but not without blaming God. Remember that faith is not enough. Mammoth pointed the following out very clearly:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a
minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
Regarding Verse 4 (above)-Because of this mandate the civil government would be in disobedience not to bring wrath on those who do evil because it is given the sword for that purpose.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Remember what Jesus said:
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
You wrote: "i definately see that the sword here is the word..no doubt... but we can't say that the armor of god then is literal... "
I believe we can also know that the armor of God is also literal. We are commanded to do what is good, we also told that "For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil." Who mighter than God, sanctioned these leaders, truth to tell neither you or I.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I know many refute James for these words, but is anyone of us truly at peace with God, knowing that there are lunatics out there who want to see the death of all the West, and not even praying for God's will to be done, even by the hands of elected rulers. If one then shouts, "Of course I pray for God's will every day" Then this discussion is meaningless, for there would be no point in blaming anyone for the death of a terrorist and sworn enemy of the State.
I believe God is testing our strength and resolve every day. One may argue: "That's why we must love these terrorists, even though they have killed, are killing and will kill again"
But the truth of the matter is that many confuse revenge with protecting the least of these. I do not hate these people, but i won't stand by and let them hurt those who cannot defend themeselves.
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Are we helping such as these by following your following words:
"he definately said to not resist the government... so who are we to interfere with other country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??
I know that this is God's plan, but we cannot use that as an excuse to join in their evil.. ":
Am I mistaken, but are you indicating that we who interfere with another country's goverment WITH VIOLENCE??, are doing so outside of God's will in order to protect the least of these, under the accordance of a leadership, "for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil. " Rom 13:4
As James clearly stated: Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. To not support those whose goal is to bring peace and freedom to places that have been at war since biblical times, is to support something other than God. For nothing happens outside his will, and this my dear sister Becky, is not an excuse.
May God bring comfort and Love to each one of us in these trying times.
Gid Bless,
Yellowstone
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hmmm lemme print it out, read over it tonight and give it some goooood thought. thanks!
Becky
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hmmm lemme print it out, read over it tonight and give it some goooood thought. thanks!
Becky
:)
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Hi you guys,
We live on the Canadian border. As you may know, just this week 17 (I believe) terrorist trainees were arrested because they had planned to blow up several major buildings in Canada & behead (?),(a high ranking official).
Just last month or last week several of these were caught running guns from Canada into the US, at the Buffalo crossing.
In addition, not only do we live on the Canadian border, we live in Lackawanna, NY, home of the Lackawanna 6 (terrorist sleeper cell group). These men lived, worshipped & planned a mere 1/4 mile down the road from our humble little Fellowship.
Just today, our daughter & granddaughter were headed to Canada for a school field trip. Anxiety was high among the parents as is Security Alert at the border. Homeland Security has so graciously (sarcasm intended) seen fit to cut funding by 40%.
This is the realty at home. This is not talking about a war 1/2 a world away that we can idealize pros & cons. The terrorists are of a reprobate mind. They neither know nor care to know the love of God, & we are the infidels.
Have I lost my peace? With all the measure of faith that I have been given, I hold fast to all that God is in me & I cast my cares upon Him.
Was I fearful about our girls going to Canada today? I'd be lying if I said otherwise, even knowing that God is in control. When it affects one personally, it changes your perspective & your ideals.
God's Word admonishes us to: 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Turning the other cheek does not mean that you become a sitting duck, as it were. Protecting the least of the little ones includes taking the offensive as the Lord has so mandated.
Also, a most excellent Scripture to ponder in addition to my previous post is 1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.
How can the "Christian" world sit by & simply talk about the compassion for all the "little ones" who were and who are still being mercilessly slaughtered?
God does & wills to use the military of the USA to stem the tide of evil.
Anyway, on a lighter note-That's my story & I'm sticking to it. :P
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Hi you guys,
........ [Some cut to save space] ........
Turning the other cheek does not mean that you become a sitting duck, as it were. Protecting the least of the little ones includes taking the offensive as the Lord has so mandated.
Also, a most excellent Scripture to ponder in addition to my previous post is 1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.
How can the "Christian" world sit by & simply talk about the compassion for all the "little ones" who were and who are still being mercilessly slaughtered?
God does & wills to use the military of the USA to stem the tide of evil.
Anyway, on a lighter note-That's my story & I'm sticking to it. :P
Manonthecross, your use of scripture is flawless; thank you so much for posting them as I could not seem to locate any scriptual proof to really support what I was trying to say.
I can only imagine what it must be like living so close to terror; the thought of such a thing seems so foreign and as you stated we must remain sober and watchful; but all the more so, be ready and willing to take action against the forces of evil, even before they attack the little ones.
I will be sure to pray for you, your family and those that you love. These are indeed difficult times, but our God is with us every step.
Thanks for sharing Manonthecross,
With Love,
YellowStone
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God works all things according to the counsel of His will.
What I see is that in Romans 13, Paul is saying that the authorities do have the right to take the sword, but only because they have do not have Christ living in them. (many called, unbelievers)
God uses them, even though they are blind and deaf, just as God uses T.V. evangelists for His good purpose.
As for the elect of God, we are commanded to love our enemies and that's our law and this is truth.
The natural man has no clue to the things of the Spirit.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
These spiritual words are for us......not them.
We know the war is wrong, only in that God's Elect know the truth, but we also know that God is using this war for His good purpose.
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
We are not to be of this world, so our only concern should be to obey Christ's commandments......which is to LOVE!
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Hi you guys,
........ [Some cut to save space] ........
Turning the other cheek does not mean that you become a sitting duck, as it were. Protecting the least of the little ones includes taking the offensive as the Lord has so mandated.
God does & wills to use the military of the USA to stem the tide of evil.
Anyway, on a lighter note-That's my story & I'm sticking to it. :P
Taking the offensive is fine, as long as it abides within the Royal Law of Christ and His doctrine.
God does will the use of the military, but he's only using those who do not have Him living inside of them.
Our governing authorities serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden.
Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world.
Alan
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Taking the offensive is fine, as long as it abides within the Royal Law of Christ and His doctrine.
God does will the use of the military, but he's only using those who do not have Him living inside of them.
Our governing authorities serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden.
Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world.
Alan
Alan, It is simply not enough walking and talking above everyone else; remember how Christ chastised the pharisees for their disdain of all not of their order. Not for a moment should we think that we cannot fall into the same trap. Unfortunately, neither you, I or any one else in this world is free from the influence of Satan.
Jesus himself was meek and never walked with airs.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
So Alan you say that our world leaders (read President Bush) " serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden."
Really!! So may I ask you how YOU can read a man's or woman's heart in order to discern what is inside. I thought that was only something that God can do. Are you certain of that, I mean willing to argue with Christ that "He" was mistaken, that our authorities did not have God in their hearts. Really, you know this? I think not. We, each one of us is the living proof of the will of God.
But your above quote is double-side, which is something God's Word is never. You state that our authorities are put in place by God but serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden, really!!! And you know this?
You state that: "Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world."
Not true my friend.
Alan, please consider the words of John:
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
Now the words of Jesus:
Alan, how will you answer Jesus when he say's to you:
Mat 25:45 ......Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives.
Remember what Jesus taught:
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],
Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
So if anyone of us, distances from ourselves from those in need, (just as the Priest and the Levite) is distancing ourselves from God, for what ever we do (or not) for the lowest of these, we do likewise to Christ. Are we so prideful of our relationship with God that we ignore such as these.
Gosh I hope not; Alan, we are mandated to act, to help; and like it or not, our authorities are in place by the will of God and not Satan.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
With Love,
Yellowstone
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So far so good! Everyone is discussing one of the most touchy subjects
and being nice! So many good posts to think on! Keep up the good
attitudes!
JJ
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Just got home and read this entire thread. Lots of good ideas, thoughts, opinions, and great scripture.
Isn't it funny that every idea and opinion, totally opposites, can find and use their own scriptures that seem to prove their point?
here is my 2 cents: I tend to agree with the scriptures that manonthcross and yellowstone used.
No, I don't REJOICE that a man died. I do REJOICE that so many innocents will now be spared. He was an awful evil man. I used to could rejoice that he would suffer in Hell. Now I know that he will be tried and purged but he will "get saved" in the end. So, I am glad his life finished early just to spare others.
My son served in the Marines 8 years. He is not uber-patriotic but didn't want to kill anybody. But he did want to protect the innocent.
America is not perfect, and I know I am just a traveling thru since this world isnot my home, But I praise the Lord that I live here and had the freedom to stumble onto this website. Maybe it is still an idol of the heart, but no way can I compare Bush with BinLaden.
God puts who he wants in power and we are to pray for them. God has not had Bush hacksaw anyones head off. A "king" of a nation that sends an army out is usually not called a murderer. Perhaps God is using America to punish the sins of the Iraqis. Didn't he cause the holocaust to punish the Jew??
This is all of God. When God wants Osama found , then he will be found.
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Gena,
Out of all the posts posted on this thread I tend to agree with yours the most.
where do people get off comparing President Bush with a terrorist, a cold blooded killer like Bin Laden?
Look what the so called "peaceful muslims" have in their little Allah book of theirs. This religion is pure evil, I personally believe Allah is Satan.
Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’�
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Its a modern Christian crusade against innocent people who have never threatened us.
Christianity is no less evil than their warped islamic views. You cant tell me that Bush or Blair dont beleive in an eternal fire either. Pots and kettles.
Leave one another alone
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Alan, It is simply not enough walking and talking above everyone else; remember how Christ chastised the pharisees for their disdain of all not of their order. Not for a moment should we think that we cannot fall into the same trap. Unfortunately, neither you, I or any one else in this world is free from the influence of Satan.
I am doing no such thing......but I stand in truth!
THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST!
I'm not trying to debate you, but show you why I think your not clear on the subject.
Jesus himself was meek and never walked with airs.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
But as we both know, as you stated above, that Christ did chastise the Pharisees in Matthew 23 for there heresy. I'm not chastising you, but speaking truth in love.
So Alan you say that our world leaders (read President Bush) " serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden."
Really!! So may I ask you how YOU can read a man's or woman's heart in order to discern what is inside. I thought that was only something that God can do. Are you certain of that, I mean willing to argue with Christ that "He" was mistaken, that our authorities did not have God in their hearts. Really, you know this? I think not. We, each one of us is the living proof of the will of God.
It's called testing the spirits Yellowstone.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
This is the litmus test!
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Are these leaders loving their enemies, or is it a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye?
Yes, they are in God's will, just as everyone is that is alive on this planet.
Are they part of God's elect? Are any of us? We will know if we come up in the first resurrection.
I say that they are not because they don't follow Christ's commandments.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
But your above quote is double-side, which is something God's Word is never. You state that our authorities are put in place by God but serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden, really!!! And you know this?
This is not double sided!
You cannot serve two masters.......It's one or the other!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
God puts everyone in their place, whether you serve Him or not.
He's either totally sovereign, or He's not.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Does either man abide in the doctrine of Christ? Do they love their enemies?
You state that: "Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world."
Not true my friend.
Alan, please consider the words of John:
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
Now the words of Jesus:
Alan, how will you answer Jesus when he say's to you:
Mat 25:45 ......Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
What you are refering to is everything in the physical realm.
What do we do in this realm?
We love everyone, including our enemies!
This is what we, as followers of Christ and His Doctrine fight against....
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
This is spiritual, not physical.
Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives.
I totally disagree! These are all spiritual words!
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
These are the words that we live our daily lives by spiritually. How we live spiritually comes out of us physically, like loving your neighbor as yourself.
Remember what Jesus taught:
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],
Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
So if anyone of us, distances from ourselves from those in need, (just as the Priest and the Levite) is distancing ourselves from God, for what ever we do (or not) for the lowest of these, we do likewise to Christ. Are we so prideful of our relationship with God that we ignore such as these.
Distancing ourselves from those in need are not obeying Christ's commandments.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
This is a spiritual commandment, as they all are.
Gosh I hope not; Alan, we are mandated to act, to help; and like it or not, our authorities are in place by the will of God and not Satan.
Like it or not, God created and ordained Satan to be the adversary. I'm not suppose to follow him and I won't follow and submit to any authority if it goes against Christ's law.
(Example: If my country told me I had to take up arms and fight for freedom, then I would say "NO THANKS")
It's just like Peter said in Acts to the governing authorities......
Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
With Love,
Yellowstone
We are under subjection as long as it does not go against the Royal Law of Christ!
With love in Christ!
Alan
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Its a modern Christian crusade against innocent people who have never threatened us.
Christianity is no less evil than their warped islamic views. You cant tell me that Bush or Blair dont beleive in an eternal fire either. Pots and kettles.
Leave one another alone
Refreshing view Zander...coming from a "westener" 8)
tell me...if we tally up the kills by Zarqawi vs Bush and Blair...who'd have the most?
and let's not forget...the whole war in Iraq is based on a LIE...there are and never were Weapons of Mass Destruction...the only WMD is the western alliance...or don't you watch the news?
EVERYDAY an average of 20 people are dying...this is the "democracy" that the west is bringing
I believe that this war is the start of the war to end all false religions...Islam, Judaism and Christianity...the three frogs of Revelation maybe?
Judgement is being brought upon all who are involved in this war...and all empires will fall...the Rock will grind all to dust...
Repent for the time of reckoning is at hand...and don't offer your sons and daughters to the god of the lie..."come out of her my people" :wink:
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And God call those churches who sleep with politics WHORES !!!
Food for thought ???
Rodger
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yellowstone: I read over what you wrote last night and the rest of this thread this morning....
Here is what I see between the two sides of this arguement.
Both aguements here are valid but ther are unsound with relation to each others way of interpreting.
Here are some facts:
1. God's word does not contradict
2. The sum of God's word is truth
(we all see this, I'm sure)
Now, if this is so, why can we not find agreement on this topic...
your words answer my question:
you said "Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives. "
Unfortunaltely, the way you are interpreting the scripture as physical, makes my arguement unsound and the way I am interpreting the scripture (spiritually) makes your arguements unsound.
We: (each side of this arguement) are not arguing on the same level, therefore, I cannot spend anymore time "arguing" on this topic. It is a mute point. I will not offer a rebuttle to your point because it is unsound with the terms I am descerning the word.
Thanks though for inspiring me to dig further for the truth!
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yellowstone: I read over what you wrote last night and the rest of this thread this morning....
Here is what I see between the two sides of this arguement.
Both aguements here are valid but ther are unsound with relation to each others way of interpreting.
Here are some facts:
1. God's word does not contradict
2. The sum of God's word is truth
(we all see this, I'm sure)
Now, if this is so, why can we not find agreement on this topic...
your words answer my question:
you said "Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives. "
Unfortunaltely, the way you are interpreting the scripture as physical, makes my arguement unsound and the way I am interpreting the scripture (spiritually) makes your arguements unsound.
We: (each side of this arguement) are not arguing on the same level, therefore, I cannot spend anymore time "arguing" on this topic. It is a mute point. I will not offer a rebuttle to your point because it is unsound with the terms I am descerning the word.
Thanks though for inspiring me to dig further for the truth!
Becky, my dear Sister,
I am saddened by your response. It sounds as if you are seperating us by our level of understanding. This is truly sad.
Becky, You are mistaken. I am NOT interpreting the scripture physically, rather I am simply applying it (physically) as we are mandated to do.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?
May God Bless you.
Yellowstone
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Thanks Sorin.
Zander, Jesus Christ and Paul never taught or believed that we should do the crusades or kill people for God or even shoot your gospel-gun at anyone. There is no way you can compare Islam (Mohammed) to Jesus. Maybe with medieval Catholic Churchianity but not with true Christianity.
I think we were to liberate a people from tyranny. Has it been so long that you have forgotten the Blitz. Had it not been for the yanks you all would be speaking German. Did you love Hitler??? How do we actually show how we LOVE our enemies?? There is really no way to show that. We just say it in our minds or tell someone or write on a forum, OH, I love my enemies. What does that mean?? How did Jesus show love to the pharasees, and Agrippa, and chief priests??
I think a better application of showing love to enemies is in our own neighborhood or with our own families. With people the Lord puts in our path. How about showing love on this forum to people with whom you disagree. How about Ray & Mike showing love to one another. How come Ray thinks it is ok to be rude to people????
Yes. Love is the better way. Our fruit will show. But I don't think it is applicable in goverments and kingdoms. I will try to show love to Osama if he shows up on my doorstep ready to saw my head off, and ask the Lord to forgive him. but from afar, I will be praying for our soldiers and that they find him. I will also try and forgive and love anyone that barges into my home to harm me, but I will also be protecting myself.
ARRRGGGG! Hope I got that all out of my system.
:roll: Love you guys!!
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HI mate
Sure, Christ never taught people to crusade against one another. But thats what has happened. I'm not comparing Islam to Jesus. I am comparing religion to religion. religion is a man made nightmare. Doctrine after doctrine of falseness. Pastors calling for the bombing of Iran, Osama calling for suicide bombers. Thats religion. Theyre false. Neither has anyting to do with love.
Hitler and Iraq are miles apart. Hitler had an army of people that everyone KNEW wanted to take over Europe (for the record thats exectly what is happening now anyway, with the EU, we are now part of the beaurcracy that Hitler wanted anyway).
Iraq had NO WMD and US and UK wanted "regime change" which is illegal. You cant just throw someone out of their country when they are of no threat. Hitler was a REAL threat.
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John 18:36 says:
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
Jesus never said war is wrong. In fact, the Old Testament is filled with God commanding people to kill:
* And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them (Deuteronomy 7:2).
* But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people (Deuteronomy 13:9).
* But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee (Deuteronomy 20:17).
* The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them (Deut. 33:27).
* Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you (Joshua 7:12).
* For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai (Joshua 8:26).
* And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing (Joshua 9:24).
* And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe (Joshua 11:14).
* For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses (Joshua 11:20).
I could go on, but you get the picture.
Shortly before Jesus was crucified, He gave His disciples this admonition:
"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one"' (Luke 22:36).
The only use for a sword is to kill. Why would Jesus tell them to buy a sword if He didn't intend for them to use it?
Conclusion: It's fine to turn the other cheek, but there are times when military might and self-defense require us to kill another person. The command "Thou shalt not kill" is not an end-all; otherwise, God contradicted Himself many times when He told His people to kill and destroy their enemies.
Sandy
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The sword can also be used as a symbol for impact, like God's word. Also, many OT rules are no longer valid. Tithing for example, growing beards, etc.
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Hitler and Iraq are miles apart. Hitler had an army of people that everyone KNEW wanted to take over Europe (for the record thats exectly what is happening now anyway, with the EU, we are now part of the beaurcracy that Hitler wanted anyway).
History, such as World War II, teaches repeatedly that the longer we waited to deal with rogue and ambitious dictators the more costly it would have been (Although now costly is an understatement). Hitler could have been stopped a number of times at a probable cost of just a few thousand lives (which I do not say lightly) instead of the tens of millions it ultimately cost to stop him.
Iraq had NO WMD and US and UK wanted "regime change" which is illegal. You cant just throw someone out of their country when they are of no threat. Hitler was a REAL threat.
Zander, my brother, with all due respect, do you REALLY BELIEVE there were no WMDS? :shock: Why? Because the newspapers & the news media say so? Do you really believe that Saddam did not move them out of the country to say....oh, I don't know....Syria?! The advanced advertising of the "Shock & Awe" campaign didn't give them too much time to move things around-I speak as a fool!
With weapons of mass destruction and modern technology, Saddam could have done in minutes what it took Hitler years to do.
Do you really believe that Saddam was no threat? Are you serious? :?
Iraq is harboring terrorists, terrorist training bases, and is in league with Al Queda and other terrorist organizations that are enemies of the United States, making the Saddam regime (and those who still support him) a threat to possibly even more devastating attacks on the United States.
Did you not read my post on what is happening over here at the Canadian border?
How do you suppose Hitler got as far as he did? Because no one stopped him at the get go! Hindsight is always 20-20.
Anyway Zander, Peace & Blessings :)
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The sword can also be used as a symbol for impact, like God's word. Also, many OT rules are no longer valid. Tithing for example, growing beards, etc.
Growing beards, that's one of the most ridiculous from the OT. :lol:
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HI mate
Sure, Christ never taught people to crusade against one another. But thats what has happened. I'm not comparing Islam to Jesus. I am comparing religion to religion. religion is a man made nightmare. Doctrine after doctrine of falseness. Pastors calling for the bombing of Iran, Osama calling for suicide bombers. Thats religion. Theyre false. Neither has anyting to do with love.
Hitler and Iraq are miles apart. Hitler had an army of people that everyone KNEW wanted to take over Europe (for the record thats exectly what is happening now anyway, with the EU, we are now part of the beaurcracy that Hitler wanted anyway).
Iraq had NO WMD and US and UK wanted "regime change" which is illegal. You cant just throw someone out of their country when they are of no threat. Hitler was a REAL threat.
Zander, why the continued anger against what God and Father of Jesus Christ has willed to happen.
All of this is for us to learn from and apply in our daily lives. No one here on earth is perfect. We are all learning, some faster than others; however, this is God's will and no other.
When you compare Islam against Christianity you are in reality comparing God against God. This you cannot do my friend.
With Love,
YellowStone
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John 18:36 says:
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
Jesus never said war is wrong. In fact, the Old Testament is filled with God commanding people to kill:
* And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them (Deuteronomy 7:2).
* But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people (Deuteronomy 13:9).
* But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee (Deuteronomy 20:17).
* The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them (Deut. 33:27).
* Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you (Joshua 7:12).
* For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai (Joshua 8:26).
* And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing (Joshua 9:24).
* And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe (Joshua 11:14).
* For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses (Joshua 11:20).
I could go on, but you get the picture.
Shortly before Jesus was crucified, He gave His disciples this admonition:
"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one"' (Luke 22:36).
The only use for a sword is to kill. Why would Jesus tell them to buy a sword if He didn't intend for them to use it?
Conclusion: It's fine to turn the other cheek, but there are times when military might and self-defense require us to kill another person. The command "Thou shalt not kill" is not an end-all; otherwise, God contradicted Himself many times when He told His people to kill and destroy their enemies.
Sandy
Sandy,
Most Excellent!
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The sword can also be used as a symbol for impact, like God's word. Also, many OT rules are no longer valid. Tithing for example, growing beards, etc.
Do you think Jesus was referring to a symbolic sword in that passage? I don't. I think He was telling His disciples to prepare to defend themselves, if need be, just like He said if His kingdom were of this world, then His disciples would have fought.
Those OT verses I quoted of God telling His people to kill and destroy had nothing to do with OT rules such as tithing and growing beards. He told them--in no uncertain terms at specific locations and points in time--to kill specific groups of people.
Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is God. If Jesus never changes, neither does God.
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WWJB
(Who Would Jesus Bomb?)
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Hello everyone.....
Instead of making replies to every post, I will just make one more to make this clear........(as in a 2nd admonition)
Tit 3:10 A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Loving your enemies is cut and dry, as are all of Christ's commandments.
There is no room for negotiation on these words of Christ!
These words mean nothing to the many called and all the unbelievers in this world. The reason being is because they are spiritual words.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
These people of the world hate God and His word.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
God works all things according to the counsel of His will, which means His will is done in every persons life, whether they are His Elect, many called or still in unbelief.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
God ordains these leaders to do His will, but that does not mean that He lives inside of them.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Our cares are not of this world, but of spiritual things!
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
These leaders in authority, being either of the church or state, are the Pharisees of today. Christ submitted to these authorities, only when it didn't conflict with His law........as in the Sabbath......etc...
It is the same for us today.
We, as in the true followers of Christ and His doctrine have a higher standard of law that we are to obey without exception. We should never give in to the killing of anyone, be it in war....death penalty....etc.
Loving our enemies means LOVING OUR ENEMIES........NO EXCEPTION.
For everyone quoting the old law and using it as support for the killing of human life..........
We are not under the law of Moses anymore and the things that happen back then were the law.
We are under new law.....the LAW OF CHRIST and all of those that lived before Christ did not receive the promises of grace.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
There will always be wars and killing in this age, but for the true followers of Christ, we are not to approve or contribute to these things.
Christ's law is not for the many called and unbelievers. To be an overcomer, we must adhere to the spiritual law.
Someone brought up this scripture......
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
These words are spiritual, not physical.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Everything Christ taught was spiritual, and this is no exception.
Here is another translation from the GNB
Luk 22:38 The disciples said, "Look! Here are two swords, Lord!" "That is enough!" he replied.
I believe Jesus reprimanded them as saying ENOUGH OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They couldn't see what Christ was saying anymore than that of the parables. Just like when Christ told Peter.....get thee behind me Satan.
Mat 16:23.
But, even if we look at this in the literal (physical sense), why would Jesus say "It is enough" when there were more than two disciples there and they only had two swords? Jesus said this at the Last Supper when all were present!
This sword is a spiritual one. Notice the reference to the buying and selling here. Sell your cloak.......buy a sword. The sword is THE TRUTH, and the disciples knew what Christ meant when He opened up to them..the scriptures.
Read this e-mail that Mike wrote on the subject!
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/takingarms.php
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Yellowstone,
I'm not here to pick on you, but I have to address the scripture you keep refering to......
Lets look at scripture surrounding this verse you keep bringing up.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
What John is saying here is what Christ told us!
We are to LOVE everyone, including helping our fellow man by having compassion for them, even though God has blinded their hearts.
We know that we have passed from death unto life when we can love our brother (neighbor) as we love ourselves.
The laying down our lives for our brother is not a reason to go against the Law of Christ, but it is our duty to stand for the TRUTH. That's what we give our lives for.............just as it is with the shadow and type of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in Daniel.
This is the spiritual warfare I am talking about. Not some physical war.
All of these political people running this country are already dead, but God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like our military.
My only concern in this age is to love my brother, and that means everyone in this entire world, but I don't let them into my spiritual house and entertain their heresy.
So I post these scriptures again to all who support retaliation of terrorism and war!
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Love your enemies and obey the doctrine of Christ!
In Christ,
Alan
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Al-Zarqawi did his part in fulfilling scripture, with a slightly different twist;
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
He lived by the bomb and died by the bomb.
I am very hesitant to believe or root for the liberal or conservative worldly causes, it is written;
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
We are His servants are we not? So let's not worry about who or what worldly, beastly government is "right," they are all wrong, none of them are here for more than a short time, remember;
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Let's put our faith in Him, believe what He says about our burdon being light, He will sort it all out.
How can anyone here say with any certainty whether Saddam had WMD or not? It is a matter of faith, some prefer to believe Saddam over Bush but how can anyone be certain? He sure acted like he had weapons, why didn't he give the inspectors access? That was his mistake.
How much sympathy does someone deserve who waves an empty gun at the cops when a SWAT team is surrounding them? If they choose to threaten when they could have submitted.
Yes, it is trendy to trash Blair and Bush, but are we to follow worldly trends? It is also justifiable to many to want to see the terrorists crash and burn. How about praying that your family and loved ones are kept safe and have faith in Him to bring it all to a glorious conclusion.
Peace,
Joe
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Yellowstone,
I'm not here to pick on you, but I have to address the scripture you keep refering to......
Lets look at scripture surrounding this verse you keep bringing up.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
What John is saying here is what Christ told us!
We are to LOVE everyone, including helping our fellow man by having compassion for them, even though God has blinded their hearts.
We know that we have passed from death unto life when we can love our brother (neighbor) as we love ourselves.
This is the spiritual warfare I am talking about. Not some physical war.
All of these political people running this country are already dead, but God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like our military.
My only concern in this age is to love my brother, and that means everyone in this entire world, but I don't let them into my spiritual house and entertain their heresy.
So I post these scriptures again to all who support retaliation of terrorism and war!
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Love your enemies and obey the doctrine of Christ!
In Christ,
Alan
Alan
You raise some intersting points and I thank you for sharing your view and the additional scriptures.
I think the following scripture is the one causing contention (in good faith) between us.
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
And you correctly state:
What John is saying here is what Christ told us!
We are to LOVE everyone, including helping our fellow man by having compassion for them, even though God has blinded their hearts.
Then you say:
All of these political people running this country are already dead, but God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like our military.
Alan, this is perhaps the most pompous statement that I have heard on this forum. Are you God? You are absolutely certain that God has written every soldier off, and in no way could possibly be teaching each of them things that even we do not know.
May I ask you a question? Are you free of sin? For you know that whoever sins is of the devil. Can you say that this is not true. Satan has a very strong hold on the entire world and me.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [/list:u]
But we are not without hope, for we have the love of Jesus Christ and the comforter that intercedes for us.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter,
[which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [/list:u]
And he pleads and begs for us;
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [/list:u]
Without a doubt, even though we are sinners still, we do have a greater hope with the spirit than those who the spirit knows not.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. [/list:u]
James conveys this very well in the scripture above. Without the spirit our body is dead! No turning away from that one. But is that all that is needed. Not according to the latter portion of that scripture, for it continues on saying: Faith without works is dead.
Are these physical works or spiritual works; would you believe both. Jesus spent the latter portion of his life helping the sick and dying. He loved them and he went to their aid, many by their faith were healed by it alone. To say that once we have the spirit, we must only concern ourselves with spiritual matters, is only a half truth. For we are commanded that:
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.[/list:u]
Our physical actions must match our words, both in deed and truth.
Likewise:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil. [/list:u]
Would you prefer that terrorists be given free reign to terrorize at whim? Would you prefer that our "dead" soldiers stay at home, would you take comfort in seeing millions perish under unceasing attacks?
Alan, you cannot have the spiritual without the physical. Read again Romans 3:13 -
For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:[\b]
We who live in the US and other Western nations are truly blessed. We can help millions by stopping a relative few. But you continue to use the word "HATE." I do not see it my friend, I do not have it, feel it or see it; rather I see love and compassion for the very little ones who are unable to help themselves. We can help them and we do. Why?
Perhaps it is just as we are commanded to do: But you say these people who are ordained by God are "dead." Are they any greater sinners than you? I mean that in all honesty, are they greater sinners than you. They are however obeying one of Jesus Commandments:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God. [/list:u]
And in doing so, are helping there fellow brothers and sisters, for failing to do so is clearly ignoring God's word.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him? [/list:u]
Do you really disdain, helping those who are unable to help themselves. We are commanded to Alan, doing nothing is not enough. Please read and understand Jesus' words.
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did
[it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. [/list:u]
This teaching is both spiritual and physical. Do you not see the connection? We are commanded to help and protect:
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [/list:u]
Do you still believe that our soldiers are "dead" that our "Government" is dead also. Are they greater sinners than any one reading this?
Remember, each of who has God in our hearts and souls have a personal relationship with him. Who can say what goes between God and anyone of his subjects. Alan, neither you or I.
But we do know this; We have the great comforter interceding for us (Rom 8:26) and who knows what the "groanings which cannot be uttered." truly are.
Alan, our relationships with God and Christ is personal, I think you are wrong telling me that our soldiers and authorities are "dead." This is not for any other than God to know.
I don't hate Bin Laden, in fact I hope and pray that he will surrender and denounce Islam.
God Bless,
YellowStone
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Yellowstone,
First off, I don't feel I'm being pompous, but standing on the Word of God.
I am not God!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......but,
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is Paul talking to God's Elect.
To be of one mind, we have to know the truth! This is what we strive for.
What you are saying about love in deed and truth is the truth, but I believe there is nothing done physically without being spiritual.
As I quoted before......
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
No man can love with God's love without His Spirit.
This is what Christ told us about the many called.............
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So if this is the many called, then the unbeliever will definitely be told to depart.
I'm putting this down to show you that, once again, it's all spiritual.
Many can do good works, such as.....
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.
If the Father and the Son live in us, then the physicality of good works will definitely happen. We will be like and have the mind of Christ.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Faith is of God, so will be our works.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
This is the sovereignty of God.....
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
His good pleasure is for all mankind!
I think the difference here is the understanding of God's will.
What God wills in the natural man is different that what He wills in His elect.
God would not will one of His elect to go and break the commandments of Christ, but He would will the natural man to do His work, just as He uses Satan to do His work in this world. The natural man abides by the law of Moses, and sometimes not even that.
So, with me, myself, following the commandments of Christ, I do not agree with what is going on in this world. We are not to be part of this world, but we have to live here, and by living here, we follow Christ's example and love in deed and truth. This is done by the Father and the Son living in us!
I hope you understand what I'm saying.
When I say that the authorities and personal of our government are dead, I mean exactly that. I'm not playing God at all, but I'm showing you the difference between the natural man and the elect.
Anyone that is going against the doctrine of Christ is the spritually dead.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see (spiritual) death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
The scriptures you use to prove your point in Romans 13 are what most of Babylon uses to support their belief in war, along with the law of Moses.
To end this, yes I am a sinner!
But with Father and the Son living in me, I have dominion over sin.
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
It is my hope that you see what is written here.
All of God's will is being done. He does not contradict and when He says...
Love thy enemies......He is speaking to His elect and not the natural man who He has hardened their hearts. I just believe that the scriptures tell us that he who does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have the Father or the Son living in him.
This is truth and the sum of His word tells us this!
In Christ,
Alan
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post all yall what.
here is truth, do i please men?
Zarky died at his appointed time.
God is in control
unseen lives are saved.
for what ever reason God wants.
his will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
All Glory and honour to CHRIST.
creator and substaner of ALL things.
love
euty.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
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Amen, euty
Well said.
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Alan are you saying that if I disagree with your POV than that proves I am not in the elect??? What makes you think you are? I thought none of us could know until the resurrection.
Anyone have thoughts on this: John 18:38...If my kingdom were of this world THEN MY SERVANTS WOULD FIGHT......
Is He suggesting tht there are times when it would be appropriate to fight?
Just wondering?????
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This is such a large topic now where do I start? After watching all of the videos and reading the posted articles about the Muslim etc on Off Topic Discussions, I was of course horrified by the carnage. I myself have recently become more acutely of how visual and auditory evil works its way in man.
Everyone is very aware of the brutality that has been done by Muslims but no one should delude themselves or deny that this sort of behavior has been going on throughout the ages. Every nation on this earth has been involved in butchery.
The thing that is now so terrifying is that we are actually beginning to see the Fruit of Evil blossoming and feeding this hive of people with the insect mentality talked about in another post.
Muslims have been moving and infiltrating into all the countries. As their foothold increases…they exert force. This force creates terror. The terror powers the movement and then seeks to kill the enemy.
This “Borg� like behavior is now breeding hate into their victims and the observers.
(Gen 6:5 KJVR)
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
When all the “love your enemy scriptures� were quoted in this topic thread, they sounded passive and gentile, like small flowers ready to be trampled by raging bulls.
But we are to remember
(1Jo 4:18 KJVR)
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
(1Jo 4:16 KJVR)
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
(1Jo 4:17 KJVR)
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
There will be a day when these bulls/ borgs and insects , etc will wet and soil their pants spiritually.
(Gen 9:2 KJVR)
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
We all know that atrocities are happening every where in this world. They will happen with or without the help of Bush or any other national leader. Technology and communication just brings it closer to our own doors and we can see and taste it and it stinks.
When Christ came into the world, Judah was not on the throne, Esau (Herod) was. After the Macabee’s rebellion, Aaron line was no longer the High Priest but a paid loyalist Caiphas was in the Temple. On top of that a pagan empire (Rome) was ruling and reigning over all. Israel was physically and spiritually dead and the Song of Moses had been sung.
Christ breathed new life into the world and the church was born. The harlot turned away and over the last 2000 years has gone the same way.
The Song of the lamb is tuning up.
How many of you are aware that the Catholic Church actively favored and supported the development of the Islam movement with the hope of having another partner against Israel?
Over the centuries all of our diabolical acts and words have added fuel to the fire, the way we dress, the immorality, our greed and avarice and hypocrisy etc have all helped point them (the muslems) to the enemy (us). The media would call this poetic justice (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/kngt.gif)
Those in Islam think themselves more devoted and therefore are more zealous for their god. They pray three times a day and literally live their religion publicly and privately. These are the very same traits that Christian’ s have preached but not practiced and they have now come back to haunt them. The very acts of intolerance (killing, burning pillage) that the church did in the past… they are now the recipients of.
If physical Israel was ever destroyed by the Iran, what would the Christian church say or do? Their whole belief system would crumble.
Those who have ears to hear know
(2Co 10:3 KJVR)
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(2Co 10:4 KJVR)
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;)
(2Co 10:5 KJVR)
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(2Co 10:6 KJVR)
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
I am really trying not to flood my physical senses with too many of these images anymore because I will no longer let the advocate influence my thoughts. I will not let hate be bred in me.
I am allowing Christ to work on my loving the enemy. Since neither side is righteous and we are not judges……. we are to be the Light and Witness with the Word of God.
Beloved
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/liebe/love-smiley-006.gif)
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Alan are you saying that if I disagree with your POV than that proves I am not in the elect??? What makes you think you are? I thought none of us could know until the resurrection.
Gmik,
I'm not saying that at all, but it's what the scriptures teach.
In my previous posts, I said that no one truly knows unless we come up in that first and holy resurrection.
The only way to be an overcomer is to uphold the doctrine of Christ
(2 John) and to keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (Revelation)
Anyone that doesn't uphold this is teaching is preaching another Jesus.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
We are not to bear (put up) with any heresy.
Anyone that agrees with the law of Moses that it's alright to fight for good that justice will be served is preaching another Jesus.
This is just one thing that separates the many called from the few chosen.
Anyone have thoughts on this: John 18:38...If my kingdom were of this world THEN MY SERVANTS WOULD FIGHT......
Is He suggesting tht there are times when it would be appropriate to fight?
Just wondering?????
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Christ is not suggesting anything, but telling us that if we are for Him, then we are not of this world, hence we will love God will all heart, soul, and mind.....love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and love our enemies.
It is the people of THIS world that think they are fighting evil with good, but they are not under the law of Christ, because they don't know Him. The world still lives under the old covenant law of Moses, where it's alright to take an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
For those who truly know Christ know that there is never a time to fight, but always a time to love as we are commanded.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
These are hard sayings, but as we die daily to the flesh, they becoming easier for............ Christ's burden is light and His yoke easy.
I'll post this link again to one of Mike's emails.
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/takingarms.php
Also, if you want more, then just type in the word "Military" into the google search on Mike's page.
God Bless,
Alan
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Im through with this debate, as i'd just be going round in circles. I am going back into my garden to pick daffodils
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Same here. Until God changes my heart, I'll see it as I see it ... as will we all.
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:52)."
This is from the article that Mike wrote that you referred to by link:
Should we fight for our country? Should we protect our families? Of course
Notice this last line. What does Mike mean? Of course.
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A. Pathetic how those who do not spill blood nor sacrifice for the freedom we have, feel compeled to spew forth stupidity and ignorance, in it's abudance and with impunity.
B. Typical for the feel good lovers to embrace evil in it's wicked orgy and truly believe that is what Jesus was refering tfor us to do.
C. Sadistic and perverted in nature is thier heart, who feel they must make others revel in guilt for thier own sake of inconvenience of unhappiness in thier little world.
To the above(((by above i mean A-C))) i say go marvel at your golden calf, whilst the rest of us are led by our invisible God's voice.
Rodger
=D> Well said Rodger! =D>
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thank you Sorin and good thread by the way...that is untill.....well you know. :wink:
Rodger