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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: santgem on October 31, 2013, 08:26:04 AM

Title: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on October 31, 2013, 08:26:04 AM: We know very well that Jesus came out from God.

Is Jesus created or birthed by the Father and what is the difference between the two?
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on October 31, 2013, 11:37:59 AM: John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
v. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." (NKJV)

John 16:27 for the Father Himself is fond of you, seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I came out from God."
v. 28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father." (CLV)

John 16:28 I came forth out of the Father, and have come into the world,—Again, I leave the world, and go, unto the Father.
v. 29 His disciples say—See! now, openly, art thou speaking, and, not a single similitude, art thou using: (Rotherham)

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. (NKJV)

John 8:42 Jesus, then, said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me." (CLV)

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them—If, God, had been your father, ye had been loving me, for, I, from God, came forth, and am here; for, not even of myself, have I come, but, he, sent me forth. (Rotherham)

Here is an interesting Scripture.

Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Rev 3:14 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Laodicea, write:—These things, saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God: (Rotherham)

And one more Scripture that does indicate that the Son had a start, was First.

Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
"These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: (NKJV)

Rev 2:8 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Smyrna write: `Now, this He is saying Who is the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lives:" (CLV)

Rev 2:8 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Smyrna, write:—These things, saith the first and the last, who became dead, and lived: (Rotherham)

Here is a place in the LOF that Ray mentioned this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ----------------

WHO IS ANTIPAS?

"I know your works and where you DWELL, even where SATAN’S SEAT [throne] is: and you hold fast My name, and have not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr [Gk: ‘witness’], who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLS" (Rev. 2:13).

But how do we know that this is Jerusalem, and not the literal city of Pergamos to whom this message is addressed?

Because God gives us the same proof as when He tells us that,

"their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE also our Lord was crucified" (Re. 11:08).

And "where" was that? Jerusalem.

Where ever "Antipas" was martyred, is where Satan dwells and has his throne. But just who is Antipas? "Antipas" is not translated. It is the same word in the Greek Manuscripts. It is a compound word: "antee" and "pas." Antee carries the meaning of being ‘in place of another,’ and pas is from pater meaning ‘father.’ And so Antipas is speaking of one who is here in the place of his father. Who might that be?

"I came forth FROM the Father…" (John 16:28).

"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come FROM God, and went to God" (John 13:3).

"But now I go My way to Him that SENT ME..." (John 16;5).

"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is IN THE BOSOM of the Father, he has declared [unfolded or revealed] Him" (John 1:18).

"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I PROCEEDED FORTH AND CAME FROM God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me" (John 8:42).

"God… has in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON…" (Heb. 1-1-2).

It is absolutely Scripturally clear that it is Jesus Christ who came "in the place of" His Father to reveal His Father to us. Jesus Christ is the Antipas.

The phrase "faithful martyr" is a proper translation, however the word translated "martyr" is from the Greek martus and is translated martyr only three times, but is translated "witness" twenty-nine times, for that is what its meaning is—a witness.

So Antipas, has come in the place of the Father. And Antipas is God’s faithful witness. And Who does the Scripture tell us is the "faithful witness" of God? Answer:

"And from JESUS CHRIST, Who IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…" (Rev. 1:5).

And Antipas, Jesus Christ, was martyred IN JERUSALEM. Satan’s throne and dwelling place is in JERUSALEM!
-------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 31, 2013, 08:10:48 PM: From the Nashville '08 conference:

There are some unique things about the universe. We learn in Hebrews that God made everything that is was made from that which does not appear. In other words that’s saying it’s made of things that you can’t see, it’s invisible things. But it was made of something, it wasn’t made of nothing. I find Christian scientists and fundamentalist Christians alike insisting that this one site on the Internet and the very name of it, has to do with creation out of nothing. No, God did not create it out of nothing. Hebrews said it was created out of things that are not seen, invisible.

Now God is spirit and it says plainly in the new testament God is invisible. Now, can we then conclude that the universe came out of God? Well yes. Notice Romans 11, it plainly says so and we don’t need to speculate about this, this is clear. Well it may not be as clear in the King James, but it’s clear in all other Scriptures whether you go to Concordant, the American Standard Version, Rotherham, the Diaglott, they all say the same thing.

Rom 11:36 For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen. (KJV)

It says, “Of Him and through Him.” The Greek is for out of Him. For out of Him and through Him and for Him. It says to Him, but it should be for him. It should be out, through and for… not of, through and to. “For out of Him, and through Him and for Him is all.” Not are all things. “…Is all. To Him be glory for the eon, Amen.” So, what is out of Him? ALL is out of Him.

Now turn to John 17:8. In Revelation 3:14 we learn that Jesus Christ is “the beginning of the creation of God.”

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

Jesus said “I came out from Thee.” Where did Jesus come from? Did He come out of the Virgin Mary, is that where Jesus really came from? No. I mean I know that people believe that is where Jesus came from, out of the Virgin Mary. He did, but He was before that. Jesus plainly says “I came out from Thee,” the Father. He came out of the Father and He was before He became the Messiah. He was sent to be the Messiah from back in the Old Testament times.

It plainly says He was conceived of or by the Holy Spirit of God the Father. We’re in John 17:8, back up a couple verses and Christ says,

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

He was glorified in His Father before there was a world, it says so. In Philippians it said He was made.

Php 2:7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

It means emptied. He emptied Himself of His divinity and became in the form of man. That isn’t where He came from, He didn’t originate in a human baby. He emptied Himself into a little baby to become in the form of a man.

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Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: mickiel on November 02, 2013, 03:17:52 PM: Quote from: santgem on October 31, 2013, 08:26:04 AM
We know very well that Jesus came out from God.

Is Jesus created or birthed by the Father and what is the difference between the two?

I think he was " Birthed" by the Father, when he said that he " Proceeded forth and came from God", that sounds like a birth to me. In John 5:26 Jesus said " For just as the Father has life in himself, even so he GAVE to the Son to have life in himself." If God had to give that to Jesus, it means he did not always have it. In John 6:57 Jesus again states that " He lives because of the Father." Which I think means he did not always live. He came out of God, out from inside of him, which means that whatever God's Spirit substance is, then Jesus is of that same substance, and we can safely assume that substance, whatever it is, its eternal. And the Father gave him self substaining eternal life. Jesus is called the first born, and humanity is destined to be born again. I often wonder just what a Spirit is?
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: microlink on November 02, 2013, 04:35:20 PM: Thanks mickiel.
I have not thought of this scripture in that way.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The Father GAVE Him life.
Cool.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: mickiel on November 02, 2013, 08:40:42 PM: Quote from: microlink on November 02, 2013, 04:35:20 PM
Thanks mickiel.
I have not thought of this scripture in that way.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The Father GAVE Him life.
Cool.

Well your welcome. There are scriptures that show Jesus is not like God, in having no beginning, that is one of them. They are different in that area. Jesus beginning was in God, and God brought him out and gave him eternity; I think birthed him. Some kind of birth, which is another reason God is refered to as " Father." Jesus calls him his Father because he birthed him. I used to look at it and think, ( in speculation), that since God is eternal, and brought Jesus out of himself, then in one sense, and only that sense, one can say Jesus is eternal; he is " Made up of eternity", or can I say " Constructed by and with eternal parts or substance", or birthed in an eternal soup ? I just don't know how to say it correctly. But he was not created; he was " In" God, and now is " Out" of him, so birth is the best way we humans can now hope to understand it.

But Jesus was " Before all other things", because he actually created all things, under God's direction I am sure. I personally believe that Jesus is the reason we humans even exist. The Father was so pleased with how Jesus turned out, that made him want more children, and his great awesome mind just became pregnant with humanity, and I like that scripture that points out he will not loose any of his children; or abort them. And through such scriptures we can reinforce universal salvation, if we look at humans as the very offspring of God. And that blows my mind at times; to even have the nerve to think of ourselves as the generate of God.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 03, 2013, 03:07:30 AM: There are Scriptures that had clearly said Jesus is created and Scriptures had said Jesus is birthed.....

In my opinion at this moment Jesus is birthed....

I am not good in english but i think created and birthed are different words and scenarios...

but would like to see opinion of others.....
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: AwesomeSavior on November 03, 2013, 09:39:38 AM: I had an interesting thought come to me last night on this subject, and I'll pass it along to everyone to get their take on it. When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, Satan told Him, "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4). If we are comparing spiritual with spiritual… we know that Jesus is called the Word (John 1:1), and that he proceedeth forth from the Father (John 16:27-28). Thus, could it be possible that Jesus was spoken, or "breathed", into existence by the Father?
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 03, 2013, 10:45:00 AM: from Nashville conference 2008

Where Did God Get Knowledge ?

The Principal Thing

I said that Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.” “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” I couldn’t understand that, so I looked it up in Strong’s and I got all the words for wisdom and I looked them up and it didn’t make sense. But then I did find Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.

“In the beginning” H7225 rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.” The principal thing, what is that? The principal thing… and Onkelos translates “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth.” I just couldn’t get it and finally it hit me. Some place the Bible must tell us what the “principal thing” is.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing;

WISDOM

There it is. “Wisdom is the principal thing.” Now go over to chapter 8, it talks about wisdom personified.

Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

v. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

v. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
v. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
v. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
v. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
v. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
v. 17 I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
v. 18 Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
v. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
v. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

v. 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
v. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was.” Before there was an earth.

Pro 8:24 When there was no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with waters,
v. 25 Before mountains were settled, Before the hills was, I brought forth.
v. 26 While as yet He had not made the earth, or the fields or the highest parts of the dusts of the world.
v. 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there, when He set a compass upon the face of the earth,
v. 28 When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Before anything was made, who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Where did it come from? It took a little digging to get this out.

Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater.

Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]

Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.

Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay.

The word there “brought forth” is H2342 chûl (khool, kheel) A primitive root; properly to twist or to dance (in some contexts, but there is only one application of it), to writhe in pain…

Not just to hurt… you know ‘writhing’ in pain, when you can’t even think straight.

- bear, bring forth, calve, great, grieve, grievous, be in pain, sore, sorrow, travail (with pain).

Those are powerful words aren’t they. If you went through all that you would think you were in childbirth. Guess what this word means here, “I was brought forth”? Travailed - birthed. Can this mean what it says?

Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. How hard was that? ‘Oh but nothing is too hard for God.’ There is nothing 'too hard' for God. Too hard, that means impossible, but how close to that does it come? Are things very very hard for God at times? Did God ever do a honest days work? Did God ever suffer? Was God ever longsuffering? Did He have to have patience?

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God.

He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us.

God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don’t think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Cr 1:24
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 03, 2013, 11:29:07 AM: Hi santgem,

Ray was asked a question at a Bible study about what he had said at the conference about birthing wisdom, was that the Son... here is an excerpt.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10538.0 ------------

but when He came up with the master plan He birthed it, with great pain and sorrow. That’s why He used the word birth and he didn’t create it. Before it was birthed it wasn’t here.

So God came to a time…Well you say, ‘if eternity is like a circle, where is that?’ I don’t know. I’m not saying that I understand all the mysteries of the universe. I’m saying I can understand the things that He teaches us. So if there was a time, if wisdom was birthed, then that is an event that happened some ‘time.’ Then there was a time before it was birthed that it wasn’t here. Then there was after it was birthed, it was here.
v
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.] No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom.

It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities. Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that. So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son? Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway? Where did He come up with the idea of a family? Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on. Where did He come up with that? Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens? No. Well then God came up with that.

You say, ‘no, God inhabited eternity. In eternity nothing changes and nothing happens, so therefore we existed and the universe existed before it was created. Because if He didn’t create it and then He created it, then something happened.’ Are we saying that He made it first and then it entered His mind what He did? Like He said, ’Oh my, look what I did, I wonder where that idea came from.’ It’s nonsense.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 04, 2013, 04:00:20 AM: Quote from: Kat on November 03, 2013, 11:29:07 AM

Hi santgem,

Ray was asked a question at a Bible study about what he had said at the conference about birthing wisdom, was that the Son... here is an excerpt.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10538.0 ------------

but when He came up with the master plan He birthed it, with great pain and sorrow. That’s why He used the word birth and he didn’t create it. Before it was birthed it wasn’t here.

So God came to a time…Well you say, ‘if eternity is like a circle, where is that?’ I don’t know. I’m not saying that I understand all the mysteries of the universe. I’m saying I can understand the things that He teaches us. So if there was a time, if wisdom was birthed, then that is an event that happened some ‘time.’ Then there was a time before it was birthed that it wasn’t here. Then there was after it was birthed, it was here.
v
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.] No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom.

It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities. Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that. So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son? Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway? Where did He come up with the idea of a family? Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on. Where did He come up with that? Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens? No. Well then God came up with that.

You say, ‘no, God inhabited eternity. In eternity nothing changes and nothing happens, so therefore we existed and the universe existed before it was created. Because if He didn’t create it and then He created it, then something happened.’ Are we saying that He made it first and then it entered His mind what He did? Like He said, ’Oh my, look what I did, I wonder where that idea came from.’ It’s nonsense.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat for additional info.....

[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.] No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom.

It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities. Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that.

Now then, if Jesus was called the Son of God before he was actually born and Jesus is more than to be called wisdom by the mere definition that we have available now,

Will it be God the Father was called Father before he actually have a Son?

Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Rev 3:14 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Laodicea, write:—These things, saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God: (Rotherham)

“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation: NLTRev 3:14(NLT)
Footnote:
* 3:14 Or the ruler, or the source.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. (NIV)

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: (NASB)

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things: (HNV)

Kat did you not consider other translations of Rev. 3:14. In my opinion some translations is like saying that Jesus is the source of the beginning of creation of God not Jesus as the First creation of God. What is your opinion?
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 04, 2013, 10:38:26 AM: Quote
Kat did you not consider other translations of Rev. 3:14. In my opinion some translations is like saying that Jesus is the source of the beginning of creation of God not Jesus as the First creation of God. What is your opinion?

Hi santgem, not sure what you are saying here... what I gather from Rev 3:14 is that the Son was brought forth from the Father to be the Beginning - the Head - the Ruler of what is to be accomplished in this whole creation (physical and spiritual). The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself as God over it all and the Son is a Being/Man, like those that were to be in this creation. He had to be the first thing in order to get it all started, because it was the Son that would be used to do everything else, of course through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think that Father and Son is the best may to describe what the relationship is of God family, though any physical analogy really is inadequate to describe the spiritual... but it is the terms that Jesus Christ used. So it was the Son (even before His physical birth) throughout the OT that we hear of and there are a few verses that say as much.

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.

Dan 3:25 "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

He was always the Son from when He was first brought forth from the Source of all/everything (even what is beyond this creation), the Father, but He also was always a Man, look at His description in the OT.

Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

This is the glory of the Lord God, the Son, yet it is still in the form of a man, which is something that we can comprehend.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: John from Kentucky on November 04, 2013, 03:23:50 PM: Santgem is correct in quoting several translations of Revelation 3:14

In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

If you study further into the Greek words arche and ktisis in Revelation 3:14, you find the principal meaning to be Jesus is the Origin or Source of creation. Jesus is not a creature.

In the Greek New Testament, the word for God is Theos.

The Scriptures prove that Jesus is God (Theos).

1st witness, the Word was God (Theos). John 1:1

2nd witness, Thomas called Jesus My Lord and My God (Theos). John 20:28

God (Theos) is the Creator not the created (creature).

1st witness that Jesus is the Creator God, ...all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

2nd witness, John referring to Jesus said, ...the world was made by Him. John 1:10
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 04, 2013, 06:18:55 PM: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html ----

Dear Andy:

Thank you for your email and questions. I'm afraid that I cannot go into much detail at present, although I have spend probably a couple of hundred hours on this subject this past year, and intend to write a paper on it in the future, but not today. It will probbly be titled: "Is Jesus GOD?"

A couple of things: When I wrote that paper on the Trinity (about ten years ago), I unfortunately allowed myself to use terms that trinitarians use (example, "person"). I have since spend many many hours in the Scriptures on the trinitarian use of that word "person." It is a most unforunate choice of words to describe God. Conclusion: Jesus IS a person, whereas His Father is NOT a person. Don't have time to prove it now, but that's the truth. And no, I do not teach that the Holy Spirit OF God is a person. I have no idea where you thought that I might be teaching that.

While it is true that Jesus did NOT say: "I and My Father are One GOD," there nonetheless, needs further clarification on that verse, which I did not cover in my paper. My new paper will be rather lengthy, I'm afraid, as the subject of the divinity of Jesus is a huge subject.

Here is another point for you to ponder until my paper comes out (and no, it won't be in the six months, so don't be looking for it any time soon). Look at I Cor. 8:6 again. Notice that it does not say, "But to us there is but one God, the Father." (Period). Nor does it say, "One Lord Jesus Christ." (Period). There is more to consider. Is this verse saying that "God the Father" is the ONLY God," and that Jesus, therefore cannot also be "God?" For sure Jesus can't be HIS OWN FATHER, but can Jesus also be "the ONE God?" Look at that first statement again, as it IS in the Scripture as I will re-emphasize the words to make this one point: "But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS." There is only One God, the Father, OUT OF Whom ALL IS" (Concordant Literal New Testament and The Emphatic Diaglott).

Then concerning Jesus we read: "One Lord Jesus Christ, BY Whom are all things." "Of" and "by" are two different words--"of" is applied to the Father, where as "by" is applied to the Son. Actually the word "by" is better translated "through," but that doesn't change the fact that they are different and are applied to different actions.

(See Rotherham's emphasized Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, and The Concordant Literal New Testament for verification of the word "through"). All creation is "OF" God the Father, but since Jesus was also created, not all creation is OF Jesus. But the act of creation is attributed to Jesus (See I Collosians, etc.), hence it is "through" Jesus that all the things of creation are brought into existence by or "through" Jesus Christ.

I'll have to end with that. As I said, this is a very large subject, but I will try to write on it in the future, God willing.

God be with you,

Ray
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: John from Kentucky on November 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM: Kat,

Would it do any good to point out that the email you quoted is dated August 7, 2010, and Ray's email, which I list below, is dated April 2, 2011? In the later email Ray states his previous writings did not take into consideration all the Scriptures on the subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html

It is almost like there is a shroud over peoples ability to see and understand.

John
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 04, 2013, 07:32:48 PM: So John do you want to pick and choose what we should believe that Ray taught according to certain dates and what JFK says is valid?

I am going by what he has taught according to Scripture and not what he was struggling to put together while battling cancer.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: John from Kentucky on November 04, 2013, 07:54:19 PM: Quote from: Kat on November 04, 2013, 07:32:48 PM

So John do you want to pick and choose what we should believe that Ray taught according to certain dates and what JFK says is valid?

I am going by what he has taught according to Scripture and not what he was struggling to put together while battling cancer.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kat,

Ray was also battling cancer at the time of the August 2010 email, which you quoted.

In his April 2, 2011 and later emails Ray was lucid and did not appear confused. I understood the questions he raised by quoting the Scriptures.

However, for the sake of peace, I will not make any further comments on this nature/enigma of God subject.

But those pesky little Scriptures brought out by Ray and me will not go away. Complete understanding will not come until all the Scriptures are put together on the subject.

John
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 04, 2013, 08:31:41 PM: It makes little difference to me "created" or "born"...those aren't even the only terms used. "Come out of" is in there somewhere.

Why not, Dave?

Thanks for asking, Dave. I'll try to explain, knowing that it will fail.

It's because I have a "higher" view of just what "creation" means. This universe is not like a box of tinker-toys put together by a higher power out there someplace. It's all "out of God". Sometimes "birthed" is a good analogy. Sometimes "created" is a good analogy. One doesn't mean the other is untrue--except maybe to a theologian, one of which thankfully I am not.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 05, 2013, 03:31:55 AM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 04, 2013, 08:31:41 PM
It makes little difference to me "created" or "born"...those aren't even the only terms used. "Come out of" is in there somewhere.

Why not, Dave?

Thanks for asking, Dave. I'll try to explain, knowing that it will fail.

It's because I have a "higher" view of just what "creation" means. This universe is not like a box of tinker-toys put together by a higher power out there someplace. It's all "out of God". Sometimes "birthed" is a good analogy. Sometimes "created" is a good analogy. One doesn't mean the other is untrue--except maybe to a theologian, one of which thankfully I am not.

Hi Dave greetings!

I have my understanding of Scriptures when i read Ray's articles and writings but of course the Spirit of the Lord guides me and enlightened me.

Before i was really afraid of death and everthing in my life but again of course there are things also that makes me afraid until now and that is natural but not as the same degree as before.

It is a horrible thing for me about death before. If i died and was a dead person i was worried where my soul go and who will accompany me to bring to hell or to heaven or to some places or to lonely places, soooooooo many questions.

All was cleared upon reading Ray's writings and other things which i am asking a questions. In this moment i believed that there is peace and safe in death until our Lord calls us! We are just like sleeping.

A lot of us would like to know really God and Jesus and i always pray and ask Jesus to reveal Himself to me. I am eager to know Him and i can not wait to revealing Himself to me, and why not if He's willing.

In my honest opinion birthed and created is very, very different words and the gap is very very wide.

I was contemplating about the only God formed..........Only Jesus is God formed!

Isaiah 43 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 05, 2013, 10:45:20 AM: Hi santgem,

Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.

Thanks for bringing that Scripture out, I don't think I have noticed it before. It does show that the Son was "formed" or made, He did have a beginning.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 05, 2013, 08:12:08 PM: There is a couple down the street that just had a baby. They are not fretting over whether their baby was born, made, formed, or came out of them. Nor do they doubt they have a baby.

The Son has existed as long as He has had a Father, same as you and me. The Father has been a Father as long as He's had a Son, same as yours and mine. He's not done having children, kinda like a another couple down the street who have 7, the oldest having just turned 13. Wouldn't be surprised to learn another one is on the way. They have nothing on the God Family, however. :)
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 06, 2013, 03:44:21 AM: Quote from: Kat on November 05, 2013, 10:45:20 AM

Hi santgem,

Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.

Thanks for bringing that Scripture out, I don't think I have noticed it before. It does show that the Son was "formed" or made, He did have a beginning.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hello Kat,

Thank you for your reply. As of this moment i am still struggling to know the difference. Well for me that two words birth and create are two different words.

As for now i will connect the verse that you commented with other verses and i would like very much for the opinion of others also. I am learning more. :)

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHWH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses"

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD (YHWH), the first, and with the last; I AM he."

Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, my called; I AM he; I am the first, I also am the last."

Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I AM he that doth speak: behold, it is I. "

Jesus Himself said, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Jhn 8:58

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Hsa 13:4

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isa 45:21-22

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psa 2:7

Isaiah 45:22 "I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me (YHWH) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

Zechariah 12:10 "And I (YHWH) will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"

Malachi 3:6 "I am the LORD (YHWH), I change not."
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 06, 2013, 04:01:06 AM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 05, 2013, 08:12:08 PM
There is a couple down the street that just had a baby. They are not fretting over whether their baby was born, made, formed, or came out of them. Nor do they doubt they have a baby.

The Son has existed as long as He has had a Father, same as you and me. The Father has been a Father as long as He's had a Son, same as yours and mine. He's not done having children, kinda like a another couple down the street who have 7, the oldest having just turned 13. Wouldn't be surprised to learn another one is on the way. They have nothing on the God Family, however. :)

Thanks Dave for the reply,

Yes, the Son has existed as long as He has had a Father and Father has been a Father as long as He's had a Son.

But let me borrow Kat post by Ray.

Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that. So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son? Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway? Where did He come up with the idea of a family? Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on. Where did He come up with that? Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens? No. Well then God came up with that.

In the case of Jesus it is a different scenario. Jesus can be called the Son even He actually born.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 06, 2013, 11:34:59 AM: Hi santgem,

When you think that the Son was "formed"... "the Beginning/Original/Head/Chief of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) it was because He was brought forth the very first and then the Son was used to do all the rest of this creation work. So He is "the first and the last," because it is who the Father brought forth to be over the creation, always.

How could He say in Isaiah 44:6 "beside Me there is no God"? Because you have to understand that the word God is a title and when the Son speaks of God it can include the Father and Son.

This is from the conference 'Who and What is Jesus..." Ray really put this together well, so it can be understood.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So you think the Father had a God? Come on. Somebody will say, ‘well how could you be God and you have a God, you are lesser than God, so it can’t be.’ Yes you can.

We have to learn what it means to take the title God, it’s more of a title, like somebody’s last name. God’s name is not God. God is a title. God is the same title that the heathers use. In the Hebrew it’s EL - Elohim, El is singular, God, Elohim is plural. What did the pagans call their god? elohim, they called them el and elohim.
v

ONE GOD!

If Jesus is God and the Father is God and we read in the Bible about God, how do we know who it is? How do we know?
So we need to clarify some of these things.
v

Here’s an interesting thing in Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.” That can be plural because it says, Elohim, “let ‘Us’ make man in ‘Our’ image.” It’s a plural pronoun, right? What’s interesting is you come down to chapter 2 and it says;

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.

Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim.

I know I’m going to get this really out of sequence here, but I have to go with the flow as God inspires me. So I’ll just talk about it here. I mean we are being introduced here to what is really happening. But most people just don’t see it, they just don’t get it.

So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn’t God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It’s the ‘We’ and the ‘Us.’ Elohim is the ’We’ and the ’Us.’ So it’s BOTH!

What have we learned in 1 Cor 8:6? All is out of ek ex - out of God, through Jesus. Keep it all together, just go over it and cross reference your Bible. Make a list of a couple of scriptures, next to the ones you are real familiar with, so you will remember those. So you will start to remember some of this stuff. Remember what we learned in the first chapter of Hebrews? You see, as we go over this more and more it will start to click with you.

Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers.

What, there’s another one. God spoke unto our fathers? Who is this God here? This is Theos, this is the God the Father, this is not Jesus Christ. In the NT Theos is God the Father, except where it says our God (Theos) and Savior, then it’s talking about Jesus Christ. But this God here is God the Father. He spoke unto our fathers? Who spoke unto our fathers? Jesus Christ! Is this a contradiction? No. The speaking came out of God, through the Son, because He’s the Spokesman.

You got to get it out of your head that God is the name of Jesus’ Father. God is not the name of Jesus’ Father. God is a title that is used even by the pagans. Baalim was a theos, Zeus was a theos, all these pagan gods were theos’ and elohims and els and adonay too.

But usually when it talks about God as Lord, it’s Adonay, not Adon. But you see the Lord God and that shouldn’t be really Lord. Because it’s just confusing, because sometimes you have ‘the Lord God’ or it will say ‘my God is Lord,’ in psalms. It’s Jehovah(Adon), but they didn’t want to say ’the Lord is Lord,’ or I think it is something like that. So they changed it to God, no, but it should be Jehovah Adonay. But since they always translate Jehovah to Lord, it would have come out Lord Lord and they didn’t think that sounded right. There is just no consistency or not very good consistencies sometimes in the KJ. That’s where Concordant is very good. The Concordant does not translate it, they call it Elohim. They leave it right there in the Hebrew, Elohim. But notice this;

Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory (speaking of Jesus Christ) and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Okay back to verse 2.

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;

Who is the “by whom?” Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, that’s why it is Elohim. “In the beginning Elohim…” God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because it’s letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.

So Jesus Christ is being introduced to us here. Why? Because He’s going to start talking. To who? To Adam and then to Eve, you see. He’s the spokesman and for the next 50 verses or whatever and maybe many more than that, it’s always the Lord God or Jehovah/Elohim.
v

It’s a title. We say even the pagans use God as a title or theos or elohim or el. They used all of these different language words for their gods, it a title. That’s why Paul said, “as there are gods many, and lords many…” (1 Cor 8:5) in the world and they knew what he was talking about. He said, “for us there is but one God…” And since Christ came to tell us who He is, we know who it is, it’s the Father! Out of whom, out of/ek ex, whom is all things.

Jesus Christ is a thing. He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from? Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.

They are one God, because you can’t have two different perfections. There is only one perfection. When you reach ultimate perfection, that’s God. There is only one such ultimate perfection. If you are a part of that perfection, you are God. That’s what God is, perfect. Jesus Christ is perfect, the express absolute total assumption of His Father That makes Him God. It isn’t something He acquired, on His own. But I do believe He did a lot. And His Father gave Him those powers, when He was able to handle them.
We are to be given power, when we prove that we can handle it.
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: onelovedread on November 06, 2013, 12:18:01 PM: Maybe I am limited (I'm sure I am) but I find myself more confused and less edified after going through this thread. I sure hope the original poster has benefited from the responses.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 07, 2013, 04:13:08 AM: Quote from: JohnChris on November 06, 2013, 12:18:01 PM
Maybe I am limited (I'm sure I am) but I find myself more confused and less edified after going through this thread. I sure hope the original poster has benefited from the responses.

Hi JohnChris,

I was hoping that responses benefited me, but in my opinion no one is dare to exactly hit the target.
The situations are understandable, we are limited and the end is that it will lead us only to arguments. I do appreciates contributors and respected their opinion because i am here seeking for an answer.

We have to understand and to really know God. Is it not what He wants?
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 07, 2013, 04:22:22 AM: Yes, Jesus was "son" before He was born in Bethlehem.

It's even conceivable that He gained wisdom through struggle before he grew up in Nazareth.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 07, 2013, 06:00:11 AM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 07, 2013, 04:22:22 AM
Yes, Jesus was "son" before He was born in Bethlehem.

It's even conceivable that He gained wisdom through struggle before he grew up in Nazareth.

Greetings Dave in Tenn,

Indeed, Jesus was "son' before he was born in betlehem:

Jesus is also;

Son of God
Son of the Father
Everlasting Father
Father of Eternity
Mighty God
Son of the living God
Living God
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 07, 2013, 07:57:23 AM: Quote from: Kat on November 06, 2013, 11:34:59 AM

Hi santgem,

When you think that the Son was "formed"... "the Beginning/Original/Head/Chief of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) it was because He was brought forth the very first and then the Son was used to do all the rest of this creation work. So He is "the first and the last," because it is who the Father brought forth to be over the creation, always.

How could He say in Isaiah 44:6 "beside Me there is no God"? Because you have to understand that the word God is a title and when the Son speaks of God it can include the Father and Son.

This is from the conference 'Who and What is Jesus..." Ray really put this together well, so it can be understood.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So you think the Father had a God? Come on. Somebody will say, ‘well how could you be God and you have a God, you are lesser than God, so it can’t be.’ Yes you can.

We have to learn what it means to take the title God, it’s more of a title, like somebody’s last name. God’s name is not God. God is a title. God is the same title that the heathers use. In the Hebrew it’s EL - Elohim, El is singular, God, Elohim is plural. What did the pagans call their god? elohim, they called them el and elohim.
v

ONE GOD!

If Jesus is God and the Father is God and we read in the Bible about God, how do we know who it is? How do we know?
So we need to clarify some of these things.
v

Here’s an interesting thing in Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.” That can be plural because it says, Elohim, “let ‘Us’ make man in ‘Our’ image.” It’s a plural pronoun, right? What’s interesting is you come down to chapter 2 and it says;

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.

Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim.

I know I’m going to get this really out of sequence here, but I have to go with the flow as God inspires me. So I’ll just talk about it here. I mean we are being introduced here to what is really happening. But most people just don’t see it, they just don’t get it.

So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn’t God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It’s the ‘We’ and the ‘Us.’ Elohim is the ’We’ and the ’Us.’ So it’s BOTH!

What have we learned in 1 Cor 8:6? All is out of ek ex - out of God, through Jesus. Keep it all together, just go over it and cross reference your Bible. Make a list of a couple of scriptures, next to the ones you are real familiar with, so you will remember those. So you will start to remember some of this stuff. Remember what we learned in the first chapter of Hebrews? You see, as we go over this more and more it will start to click with you.

Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers.

What, there’s another one. God spoke unto our fathers? Who is this God here? This is Theos, this is the God the Father, this is not Jesus Christ. In the NT Theos is God the Father, except where it says our God (Theos) and Savior, then it’s talking about Jesus Christ. But this God here is God the Father. He spoke unto our fathers? Who spoke unto our fathers? Jesus Christ! Is this a contradiction? No. The speaking came out of God, through the Son, because He’s the Spokesman.

You got to get it out of your head that God is the name of Jesus’ Father. God is not the name of Jesus’ Father. God is a title that is used even by the pagans. Baalim was a theos, Zeus was a theos, all these pagan gods were theos’ and elohims and els and adonay too.

But usually when it talks about God as Lord, it’s Adonay, not Adon. But you see the Lord God and that shouldn’t be really Lord. Because it’s just confusing, because sometimes you have ‘the Lord God’ or it will say ‘my God is Lord,’ in psalms. It’s Jehovah(Adon), but they didn’t want to say ’the Lord is Lord,’ or I think it is something like that. So they changed it to God, no, but it should be Jehovah Adonay. But since they always translate Jehovah to Lord, it would have come out Lord Lord and they didn’t think that sounded right. There is just no consistency or not very good consistencies sometimes in the KJ. That’s where Concordant is very good. The Concordant does not translate it, they call it Elohim. They leave it right there in the Hebrew, Elohim. But notice this;

Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory (speaking of Jesus Christ) and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Okay back to verse 2.

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;

Who is the “by whom?” Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, that’s why it is Elohim. “In the beginning Elohim…” God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because it’s letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.

So Jesus Christ is being introduced to us here. Why? Because He’s going to start talking. To who? To Adam and then to Eve, you see. He’s the spokesman and for the next 50 verses or whatever and maybe many more than that, it’s always the Lord God or Jehovah/Elohim.
v

It’s a title. We say even the pagans use God as a title or theos or elohim or el. They used all of these different language words for their gods, it a title. That’s why Paul said, “as there are gods many, and lords many…” (1 Cor 8:5) in the world and they knew what he was talking about. He said, “for us there is but one God…” And since Christ came to tell us who He is, we know who it is, it’s the Father! Out of whom, out of/ek ex, whom is all things.

Jesus Christ is a thing. He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from? Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.

They are one God, because you can’t have two different perfections. There is only one perfection. When you reach ultimate perfection, that’s God. There is only one such ultimate perfection. If you are a part of that perfection, you are God. That’s what God is, perfect. Jesus Christ is perfect, the express absolute total assumption of His Father That makes Him God. It isn’t something He acquired, on His own. But I do believe He did a lot. And His Father gave Him those powers, when He was able to handle them.
We are to be given power, when we prove that we can handle it.
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat,

I am rereading the nashville conference 2007. Again, i encountered the word begotten. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels…

Remember we talked about the angels called, sons of God shouting for joy and appeared before God. You know when they were talking about Job and so on. They were sons of God, angelic beings. “But unto which of the angels said he at any time, you are my son, this day have I BEGOTTEN you…” Created? No, begotten! You may not know about this Greek word, in the Greek there is no separate word for begotten and born, same word.
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 07, 2013, 09:33:47 PM: Quote from: santgem on November 07, 2013, 06:00:11 AM

Greetings Dave in Tenn,

Indeed, Jesus was "son' before he was born in betlehem:

Jesus is also;

Son of God
Son of the Father
Everlasting Father
Father of Eternity
Mighty God
Son of the living God
Living God

Son of Man
The Man
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 07, 2013, 10:13:18 PM: Hi santgem,

Quote
Again, i encountered the word begotten. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are My Son, today I have begotten(G1080) You"? Or again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son"?

Strong's
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Webster on e-Sword

BEGET', v.t. pret. begot, begat; pp. begot, begotten.

1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; as, to beget a son.

2. To produce, as an effect; to cause to exist; to generate; as, luxury begets vice.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 08, 2013, 05:43:32 AM: Quote from: Kat on November 07, 2013, 10:13:18 PM

Hi santgem,

Quote
Again, i encountered the word begotten. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are My Son, today I have begotten(G1080) You"? Or again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son"?

Strong's
G1080

γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Webster on e-Sword

BEGET', v.t. pret. begot, begat; pp. begot, begotten.

1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; as, to beget a son.

2. To produce, as an effect; to cause to exist; to generate; as, luxury begets vice.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hello Kat,

Thanks again for that post.
Actually in my understanding It is ONLY Jesus that is actually begotten or born of God. He is not merely created. Ray said that "No, our final destination is to be BORN into the Kingdom of God". Ray did not say that our final destination is to born of God but be BORN in the Kingdom of God.

Sonship?

« on: May 25, 2007, 10:33:17 PM »

Hey Ray,

I am listening to your sermons on the Origins of Jesus as I write. But something caught my ear that I hope you can clear up. You stated something along the lines that we will not be adopted into the family of God as the Angels were, but that we will be begotten and that that is a far more intimate relationship with God. Can you then please explain the following scriptures?

Romans 8:15 “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”

Romans 8:23 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

Galatians 4:5 “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

Ephesians 1:5 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”

Strong’s dictionary does not give any alternate definitions for the Greek. I of course am not refuting your statements but maybe I misunderstand you. My understanding is that to be “begotten” is quite different from being “adopted.” Thanks for your time.Roy

Dear Roy: Yes, Strong's does give an alternate to "adoption" for the word "unibotheia," and in fact the "alternate" is his FIRST definition is "the PLACING OF A SON...SONSHIP."

Webster's New Twenteth Century Dictionary Unabridged:"sonship"--"the STATE OF BEING A SON"

Romans 8:15....

"But you have received a spirit of SONSHIP" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

"...but a Spirit which makes us SONS" (The New English Bible)

"...you have received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (Moffatt Translation)

"...you received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (New International Version)

"...but you received a Spirit of SONSHIP" (Emphatic Diaglott).

"...but you got the spirit of SONSHIP" (Concordant Literal New Testament) Etc.

We are not merely adopted into the Family of God, but rather God has "BEGOTTEN us" [Gk: 'beget, be born--regenerate']" (I Pet. 1:3). And: "Being BORN AGAIN [same Greek word], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God..." (Verse 23).

No, our final destination is to be BORN into the Kingdom of God, not just an "adoption." Some bibles do not ever use the word "adoption." Even if we were to accept these Scriptures as "adoption," we still have the added knowledge that we are to be BORN into the Kingdom of God.

We are all "called," but is that our final destiny? No, there is also (in addition to the called) those called ones who are CHOSEN, and even among the chosen, there must be the FAITHFUL (Rev.17:14). Judas was called and chosen, but he was NOT FAITHFUL UNTIL THE END!!

Hope this helps your understanding.

God be with you,

Ray
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: santgem on November 08, 2013, 05:58:19 AM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 07, 2013, 09:33:47 PM
Quote from: santgem on November 07, 2013, 06:00:11 AM

Greetings Dave in Tenn,

Indeed, Jesus was "son' before he was born in betlehem:

Jesus is also;

Son of God
Son of the Father
Everlasting Father
Father of Eternity
Mighty God
Son of the living God
Living God

Son of Man
The Man

Bro. Dave greetings,

Yes, Jesus is the Son of Man , The Man....

If we are to call Him maybe this is not enough;

JESUS IS... OUR ADVOCATE !Jn. 2:1
JESUS IS... ALMIGHTY Rev. 1:8 - Mat.28:18
JESUS IS... ALPHA AND OMEGA Rev.1:8 -22:13
JESUS IS... AMEN Rev. 3:14
JESUS IS... APOSTLE OF OUR PROFESSION Heb. 3:1
JESUS IS... ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS 1 Jn.2:2
JESUS IS... AUTHOR OF LIFE Acts 3:15
JESUS IS... AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF OUR FAITH Heb.12:2
JESUS IS... AUTHOR OF SALVATION Heb. 2:10
JESUS IS... BEGINNING AND END Rev. 22:13
JESUS IS... BLESSED AND ONLY RULER 1 Tim. 6:5
JESUS IS... BREAD OF GOD Jn. 6:33
JESUS IS... BRIDEGROOM Mt. 9:15
JESUS IS... CAPSTONE Acts. 4:11-1Pet. 2:7
JESUS IS... CHIEF CORNERSTONE Eph. 2:20
JESUS IS... CHIEF SHEPARD Eph. 2:20
JESUS IS... CHRIST 1Jn. 2:22
JESUS IS... CREATOR Jn. 1:3
JESUS IS... DELIVERER Rom. 11:26
JESUS IS... ETERNAL LIFE 1 Jn. 1:2-5:20
JESUS IS... GATE Jn.10:9
JESUS IS... FAITHFUL WITNESS Rev. 3:14
JESUS IS... FAITHFUL AND TRUE Rev. 9:11
JESUS IS... FIRST AND LAST Rev.1:17-2:8-22:13
JESUS IS... FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD Rev.1:5
JESUS IS... FIRSTBORN OVER CREATION Col.1:15
JESUS IS... GOD Jn. 1:1-20:28- Heb.1:8 Rom.9:5
JESUS IS... THE GOOD SHEPARD Jn. 10:11,14
JESUS IS... GREAT SHEPARD Heb. 13:20
JESUS IS... GREAT HIGH PRIEST Heb. 4:14
JESUS IS... HEAD OF THE CHURCH Eph. 1:22-4:15-5:23
JESUS IS... HEIR OF ALL THINGS Heb. 1:2
JESUS IS... HOLY AND TRUE Rev. 3:7
JESUS IS... HOLY ONE Acts 3:14
JESUS IS... HOPE 1 Tim. 1:1
JESUS IS... HOPE OF GLORY Col.1:27
JESUS IS... HORN OF SALVATION Luk.1:69
JESUS IS... IAM Jn.8:53
JESUS IS... IMAGE OF GOD 2 Cor.4:4
JESUS IS... IMMANUEL Mt.1:23
JESUS IS... JUDGEOF THE LIVING AND DEAD Acts 10:42
JESUS IS... KING ETERNAL 1 Tim. 1:17
JESUS IS... KING OF ISRAEL Jn. 1:49
JESUS IS... KING OF THE AGES Rev.15:3
JESUS IS... LAMB Rev. 13:8
JESUS IS... LAMB OF GOD Jn. 1:29
JESUS IS... LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH 1 Pet.1:19
JESUS IS... LAST ADAM 1 Cor. 15:45
JESUS IS... LIFE Jn. 14:6 -Col. 3:4
JESUS IS... LIGHT OF THE WORLD Jn. 8:12
JESUS IS... LION OF THE TRIB OF JUDAH Rev.5:5
JESUS IS... LIVING ONE Rev. 1:18
JESUS IS... LIVING STONE 1Pet. 2:4
JESUS IS... LORD 2Pet. 2:20
JESUS IS... LORD OF GLORY 1Cor. 2:8
JESUS IS... LORD OF LORDS Rev.19:16
JESUS IS... MAN FROM HEAVEN 1Cor. 15:48
JESUS IS... MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT Heb. 9:15
JESUS IS... MIGHTY GOD Isa.9:6
JESUS IS... MORNING STAR Rev. 22:16
JESUS IS... OFFSPRING OF DAVID Rev. 22:16
JESUS IS... ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD Jn. 1:18-1Jn. 4:9
JESUS IS... OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR Titus 2:13
JESUS IS... OUR HOLINESS 1Cor. 1:30
JESUS IS... OUR HUSBAND 2Cor. 11:2
JESUS IS... OUR PROTECTION 2Thess. 3:3
JESUS IS... OUR REDEMPTION 1 Cor.1:30
JESUS IS... OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS 1Cor. 1:30
JESUS IS... OUR SACIFICED PASSOVER LAMB 1Cor. 5:7
JESUS IS... POWER OF GOD 1Cor. 1:24
JESUS IS... PRECIOUS CORNERSTONE 1Pet.2:6
JESUS IS... PROPHET Acts 3:22
JESUS IS... RABBI Mt.26:25
JESUS IS... RESURRECTION AND LIFE Jn.11:25
JESUS IS... RIGHTEOUS BRANCH Jer.23:5
JESUS IS... RIGHTEOUS ONE Acts 7:52-1Jn. 2:1
JESUS IS... ROCK 1Cor. 10:4
JESUS IS... ROOT OF DAVID Rev.5:5-22:16
JESUS IS... RULER OF GODS CREATION Rev.3:14
JESUS IS... RULER OF KINGS OF THE EARTH Rev.1:5
JESUS IS... SON OF DAVID Lk.18:39
JESUS IS... SON OF MAN Mt.8:20
JESUS IS... SON OF MOST HIGH GOD Lk.1:32
JESUS IS... SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR BELIEVERS Heb.5:9
JESUS IS... THE STONE BUILDERS REJECTED Acts.4:11
JESUS IS... TRUE BREAD Jn.6:32
JESUS IS... TRUE LIGHT Jn.1:9
JESUS IS... TRUE VINE Jn.15:1
JESUS IS... TRUTH Jn.1:4-14:6
JESUS IS... WAY Jn. 14:6
JESUS IS... WISDOM 1Cor.1:24
JESUS IS...THE WORD Jn.1:1
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: Kat on November 08, 2013, 10:10:02 AM: Hi santgem,

Yes, "the only begotten." The Son is quite unique and He is the Firstfruits of the kingdom with many/all yet to come.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

James 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Matt 13:38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom...

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: se7en on November 08, 2013, 11:14:41 AM: JESUS IS... BEGINNING AND END Rev. 22:13
JESUS IS... ALPHA AND OMEGA Rev.1:8 -22:13
JESUS IS... FIRST AND LAST Rev.1:17-2:8-22:13
JESUS IS...THE WORD Jn.1:1

I love all the "Jesus Is" statements. But those I would have to say are some of my top favorites! If Jesus is the beginning and the end... He's also everything else in between. The first Adam and the last Adam . He lives His life in each and every person, at their appointed time.

He starts it all, and finishes it all. MY LORD AND MY GOD!!! Creator and sustainer and worker of EVERYTHING.

It's beautiful, puts a big smile on my face :) thanks for this thread guys!
Title: Re: Where is Jesus came from?
Post by: microlink on November 08, 2013, 01:18:41 PM: Santgem,

Good job on all those scriptures referencing Jesus Christ.
Must have taken a long time to put it together.
Enough meat in that list for years of bible study.
Thanks.