bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: TimothyVI on January 11, 2007, 07:36:10 PM
-
In Rays article, Is God a closed trinity or an expanding family, he says that
the Holy Ghost is never called God.
What is your take on Acts 5:3-4. I don't think that Ray touched on that particular
scripture.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Is not Peter inferring that the Holy Ghost is God?
I still attend church for now. But I do not believe in the trinity, or many of their other false doctrines.
Tomorrow I am attending a bible study class in which the pastor is going to discuss the trinity.
I would like to be able to refute that one scripture if possible.
I know, I know. I can not try to change his mind. I just want to be prepared to give a good
reason for my stance. I have many good reasons, but this one verse is a road block for me.
Tim
Tim
-
Dear Tim,
I'm sorry that this may not answer your question completely, but far to many times folks come here for "ammunition"so they can "one up" there pastors or church friends on their next encounter.
Read all you can, God chooses who are his, this journey is sometimes rather lonely, you will not convince one single person of anything, Be the best person you can be.
Gods Spirit is not seperate from God... Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
There is so much material on this one subject, I hope you read all of it. hundreds and hundreds of pages dealing with this and other questions.
Peace
Chris R
-
Tim, you just got some of the greatest advise from Chris that anyone could give you.
Love in Christ
Longhorn
-
Dear Tim,
I'm sorry that this may not answer your question completely, but far to many times folks come here for "ammunition"so they can "one up" there pastors or church friends on their next encounter.
Read all you can, God chooses who are his, this journey is sometimes rather lonely, you will not convince one single person of anything, Be the best person you can be.
Gods Spirit is not seperate from God... Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
There is so much material on this one subject, I hope you read all of it. hundreds and hundreds of pages dealing with this and other questions.
Peace
Chris R
Very good advice indeed Chris. However I fear that you missunderstood my question as well as my motive.
My Pastor is also my best friend. That is one of the few reasons that I still attend church. Otherwise I may have
come out of her months ago. He says that I am the iron against iron that keeps him sharp.
I never try to find ammunition to "one up" him. I only find ammunition to defend my position for my own sake.
And if possible to help him see my way of thinking. That is what Ray does as well.
We usually end our debates by agreeing to disagree.
I merely thought that since Acts 5:3-4 seemed to contradict what Ray said " the Holy Spirit was never called God"
that someone here might be able to give me a clearer insight. I would have emailed Ray about it but really did not want to wait
four or five months for an answer.
Your answer did not help much but I will meditate on those scriptures that you gave me, thank you for responding.
Tim
-
Ray responds pretty quickly most of the time Tim. You could give it a try. There was only one email of mine that took a long time. He replied to the others within a week or two. I thought I read somewhere where he commented on this, but I wasn't able to find it for you today. I'll post it if I see it.
-
Tim,
Ray is correct in stating that the scriptures never refer to the Holy Spirit as God, but it most certainly does refer to the Holy Spirit being a part of God.
Remember God is spirit.(John 4:24) and He is the Father of all Spirits (Hebrews 12:9).
The way I understand it is that the Holy Spirit is not a separate “person” in a trinity but rather the Holy Spirit is the essence of who God is. After all what made Christ “the image of the invisible God”? It was the Spirit of God or the fullness of God that dwelled in Him that made the fleshly form of Jesus God.
Look at Colossians 1:15-19
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.
Also check out …
Phi 2:6
Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Now that same fullness or spirit returned as a comforter in the elect…
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
The Holy Spirit of God, (not the Holy Spirit who is God) was present there in Acts 5 in the elect, the body of Christ here on earth… which is why Peter could say “Thou hast not dealt falsely with men but, with God.”
Hope this helps you overcome your road block!
God’s Peace
Josh
-
I have thought the Holy Ghost and holy spirit are different. The Holy Ghost being God working through us, and the holy spirit OF GOD, as being the comforter and wisdom, and so much more! It always confuses me when people interchange these two titles. Any thoughts?
Lisa
-
Lisa,
Sure. Think about this for a second. Prince of Peace. Lion of Judah. Branch of David?, Holy One. God with Us. Do you know whom I am talking about? Are there 5 different people. No, I am talking about Jesus Christ.
It can get very confusing. This is where a concordnace probably would help. Or do a simple web search and bring up the synonyms for the Holy Sprit and Holy Ghost. I have heard him as the Comforter as well. What helped me understand Jesus more, was the poster with all the titles. The titles are not the person they are a symbol for the aspects we want to focus on. Does this make sense?
Here are some titles to get you going.
1. The Spirit of God
2. The Spirit of Christ
3. The Eternal Spirit
4. The Spirit of Truth
5. The Spirit of Grace
6. The Spirit of Life
7. The Spirit of Glory
8. The Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation
9. The comforter
10. The Spirit of Promise
11. The Spirit of Holiness
12. The Spirit of Faith
13. The Spirit of Adoption
I know that there are more somewhere. I have the Scriptures where these are used. I will post them if you need them. Let me know if you are interested, I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Thank you Josh,
That was actually very helpful. I now also see the Holy Spirit as the
representative of God, and if you lie to His representative, you lie to God.
Lisa, the word pneuma is translated in the NT both as ghost and spirit. So I don't think there is
any differentiation between the two. But again, I am obviously still learning.
Tim
-
Thank you Anne. I am also still learning - Thanks be to God! and all of you too.
Lisa
-
Hi Tim,
I found this in Ray's emails.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1934.0.html ----------------------------------
Holy Spirit
« on: September 19, 2006, 10:47:01 AM »
Ray, Has the Holy Spirit always been present since the foundation of the world, It never mentioned in the old testament?
Dear Reader:
God is Holy and God is Spirit--therefore, God is HOLY Spirit.. Actually the "Holy Spirit" is mentioned in the Old Testament: Psalm 51:11; Isa. 63:10, etc.
God be with you,
Ray
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Lisa,
The scripture use the same Greek word for Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, I have 15 translations of the Bible and only the older KJV used Ghost.
Here is the Strongs no. which is the same for all of the times it is found in the NT scripture.
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Hi Kat,
Wouldn't you know, the older KJV is the bible I study. I also read a book where it explains Jesus Christ as being consciousness - holy spriit as being thought. I am gonna try and get the translation that Ray suggests soon.
Peace to you dear sister.
-
Hi Redbird,
Glad I could help.
Hi Tim,
I found this other email of Ray's, and thought I would add it too.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1525.0.html --------------------
Free Will
« on: August 01, 2006, 06:42:36 AM »
> Hi, I will not add to all of the words that you must read every day saying
> millions of words of gratitude. So to sum it all up. THANK YOU SO VERY
> MUCH!!!! THANK YOU GOD!
>
> Now here is my question: Free Will i have read much of your work and
> understand that we have NO FREE will. But how far does it extend. Is God in
> control of every little move we make (i like to believe so) And if He is
> then why would he punish the wicked? Obviously not for all eternity! But
> why?? Is it not His Will that they be wicked?? Potter of honour and
> dishonour?, creator of evil, hardened pharohs heart? So why would they be
> punished? And is not the evil doctrine of hell (depths of Satan) also Gods
> will, strong delusion, NONE OTHER BURDEN etc.. IS NOT EVERYTHINGS GODS
> WILL??
> so heres one of many scriptures that confuse me on this free will subject:
>
> "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
> of heaven: but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. MANY
> will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?
> And in Thy name have cast out devils [demons]? And in Thy name done MANY
> WONDERFUL WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
> from Me, ye [ye means ‘ALL of you’] that work INIQUITY [lawlessness]" (Matt.
> 7:21-23).
>
> Does not all we do the will of God? Isn't it impossible not to? Is not
> EVERYTHING IN THIS ENTIRE WORLD THAT TAKES PLACE THE WILL OF GOD!!!?? So how
> can God not alow people to enter into His Kingdom when He is the one who
> Wills them to do Good and Evil,Honour and Dishonour, INIQUITY AND SIN!!??
> Doesnt He control all? or does he onl y control some things? i am confused
> why God would not alow certain people into his kingdom if it is His Will
> that they work Iniquity!
>
> Hope you can understand my question.
> Thank you
> Humbly In Christ
> Alex
Dear Alex:
We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will." It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously. The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible. This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness. And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.
God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Kat,
Thanks for posting the e-mails. They have cleared up some confusion I was having with some other topics. God bless you and your spirit of a servant.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Hi Kat,
Thanks for your posts. At first I did not see how your last post
related to my question. But as I read it again I suddenly thought
that I needed to distinguish between the Holy Spirit which is God,
and the holy spirit which is the spirit of God which he sends to us.
Was that what you had in mind?
How do you find all of these past posts by Ray. I remember reading them somewhere
but can never find them again.
Tim
-
Hi Tim,
I believe the Holy Spirit is of God, saying it is God, goes back to the trinity, I think.
I look at it as what God uses to operate, maybe it takes on different forms as He uses it.
I found this to be interesting from Torrey.
R.A. Torrey's New Topical Textbook -------------------------------
The Holy Spirit, The Comforter,
Proceeds from the Father
John 15:26;
GIVEN
By the Father
John 14:16;
By Christ
Isa 61:3;
Through Christ's intercession
John 14:16;
Sent in the name of Christ
John 14:26;
Sent by Christ from the Father
John 15:26; John 16:7;
AS SUCH HE
Communicates joy to saints
Rom 14:17; Gal 5:22; 1Thes 1:6;
Edifies the Church
Acts 9:31;
Testifies of Christ
John 15:26;
Imparts the love of God
Rom 5:3-5;
Imparts hope
Rom 15:13; Gal 5:5;
Teaches saints
John 14:26;
Dwells with, and in saints
John 14:17;
Abides for ever with saints
John 14:16;
Is known by saints
John 14:17;
The world cannot receive
John 14:17;
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as far as the emails, I use to hunt a lot.
Now I have been working on categorizing the emails.
It's a bit of a job, I'm about half way through, but hopefully in a few more weeks I can post it :)
I have been finding lots that I forgot about in the process.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Thank you Kat.
-
Kat,
Yeah we will get those e-mails categorized at at last. ;D Thanks for doing that so much.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Thanks Kat,
You said "I believe the Holy Spirit is of God, saying it is God, goes back to the trinity, I think.
I look at it as what God uses to operate, maybe it takes on different forms as He uses it.
I found this to be interesting from Torrey."
What I meant was what Ray had said. God is a spirit and God is holy. Therefore God is a holy spirit.
I like the list of descriptions of the Holy Spirit, from Torrey's New Topical Textbook that you gave.
Tim
-
Hi Tim,
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
Most translations do not use a spirit any more, because God is not limited to being a spirit.
He is spirit and invisible, but He is everywhere at the same time, omnipresent.
This might sound like I am nit picking, but just wanted to clear up He is not a spirit :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Hi Kat,
Thanks for the work you have put out on categorizing the emails.
May god be with you in this process.
:)
Iris
-
Kat,
If you get lost. We will come looking for you in the tangled halls of the e-mails.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Hi Tim,
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
Most translations do not use a spirit any more, because God is not limited to being a spirit.
He is spirit and invisible, but He is everywhere at the same time, omnipresent.
This might sound like I am nit picking, but just wanted to clear up He is not a spirit :)
mercy, peace, and love
Nit pick away Kat. It helps me to look more closely at each word in scriptures, and try to discern their meaning. ;D
Tim
Kat
-
As a previously indoctrinated brain washed and deceived Catholic….what completely thoroughly nailed into the correct perspective about the Trinity heresy was this found under L. Ray Smith e-mails 17 …..
Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.
Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!
There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!
-
I've read the article of Ray on the "closed Trinity or expanding Family" and was thinking about Isaiah: 9:6 where it says:
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
In the light of Ray's insights in the above mentioned article, what do you(anyone here) think about this verse?
The way I understand it is that the Holy Spirit is not a separate “person” in a trinity but rather the Holy Spirit is the essence of who God is. After all what made Christ “the image of the invisible God”? It was the Spirit of God or the fullness of God that dwelled in Him that made the fleshly form of Jesus God.
I quoted this from Sj's posting, for maybe it might shed some light on my question... could Isaiah 9:6 refer to the indwelling fullness of the Father, which gives the child(the Son) referred to in Isaiah 9:6 the name "everlasting Father"? (and "mighty G'd")...
-
Hi RTA,
Here is an email that ask about this same thing in Isa. 9:6.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1809.0.html -------------
Ray
I just re-read your paper on the trinity. I agree with it. I do have a question. I copied and pasted the below from your paper.....
(Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:)
You say, He cannot also be the Father. In Isa. Jesus is called everlasting Father. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
How can you say Jesus cannot be the Father?
Rick
Dear Rick:
The Hebrew does not exactly read as most Versions translate it. Here is the Hebrew of this verse from an Interlinear:
"the-chieftainship-of on sholder-blade-of-him and-he-shall-be-called name-of-him Marvelous one counseling to master father-of-future chief-of welfare"
And so, rather than "being" the "father of the future" or "father of futurity," Jesus was to be the one here on earth counseling in behalf "of" the: Master; Father of futurity; and Chief of welfare (James 1:17).
I would not base my salvation on the proper translation of this verse. Here is how the Concordant Old Testament renders it:
" For a Boy is born to us; a Son is given to us, and the chieftainship shall come to be on His shoulder, and His name is called 'Marvelous.Counsel to the master shall He bring, to the chief of the future, welfare.'"
God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope this helped.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Lisa,
You are most certainly welcome, I am still learning as well. Thanks for admitting that. I hope that we never reach a place where the learning stops.
Thanks so much.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
-
Dear friends,
About the Holy Spirit, if it is an Holy Spirit, it means for me that it is also bad spirits. I believe that it is a difference between the Old testament and The New Testament.
In the Old Testament The spirit of God is god self.
In the New Testament, The Holy Spirit is send by Christ for the believers, in opposition of the bad spirits.
God bless you all
Andreas
-
Just wanted to say welcome to the forum Andreas.
Lisa
-
Yes, Hi Andreas. Good to meet ya.
-
Thanks Kat for sharing the link!
I've emailed Ray about this theme too and he gave me the following answer, I'll bring it in here...(I just quote the question and reply):
Question:
You know the verse in Isaiah 9:6;
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The mighty G'd, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
In the light of what you already explained in the above mentioned article, could you please make me understand how to understand this verse? for here it seems(?) that the child's(the Son's) name is called "Mighty G'd" and (even) "everlasting Father".
I see clearly that the Father is not the Son(for He is the Image of the invisible G'd), though they are one.
so my question is:
Now why, when He is NOT the Father, He(the Son) is called "everlasting Father"?
answer:
I answered this same question for someone a couple of days ago, but I don't have my reply.
Jesus was the God of the Old Testament. And although He is the "Son of GOD," He was also
a "Father" to Israel (Isaiah 63:16; Jer. 31:9; Ex. 4:22; etc.) The word "everlasting" is a word that stands for the "future," no "everlasting.