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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: bhodge10 on August 09, 2007, 12:28:26 PM
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Hi everybody,
I just wanted to point something out and to see if anybody else has the following in their bibles (regardless of version). In the Emails to Ray section, the latest one talked about Parables. Specifically the rich man and Lazarus. Here is the funny thing about the belief that it is not a parable. In my bible, at the back of it lists various resources for reference, such as definitions, places, and it just so happens to list Jesus' parables. Well, in short, the rich man and Lazarus is listed as a parable. Actually 2 of my bibles show this. Anybody else have bibles that show this?
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Don't have my bible with me.
But a search of google.com of lazarus and the rich man, turns up a lot of hits that claim it is a parable.
Even Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_and_Dives calls it a parable.
I am not so sure that all Orthodox Christainanity claims it is not a parable so much as they do not interpret it as a whole, as a parable. They interpret it as partially parable and partially literal. There are various approaches to the interpretation of parables, depending on what doctrine(s) someone needs to support. For someone who believes in a physical literal burning hell, then hell in this parable means that burning hell to them.
Of course none of Jesus parables can be understood by Orthodox Christainanity anyway, because of the doctrine's they keep , and their method of literal interpretation, and context.
I think that Ray's reply to this was about the only approach he could take with this person, without taking on all the false doctrines the person had in his heart.
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Hasn't Ray referred to the entire Bible as a parable?
Does counting this story as a parable change its meaning or its teaching points?
Does it matter whether Jesus' teaching methods were "Based On Actual Events" or not? What if we were to discover that the Lazarus story was fictionalized to make its point or that the Prodigal Son characters were real? Would this change anything?
Peace
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Pax
Don't know exactly what you are getting at, but one thing to remember it is not Ray that says the bible is a parable the bible says it is a parable. Ray just agrees with the bible.
CIY
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Hi Pax,
I think the parables that Jesus used have tremendous spiritual meaning, totally hidden from the whole world, ecept for those who are having their eyes opened.
Here is what Ray says about parables.
http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html -------------
WHY PARABLES?
When one looks at all the parables, as they are "literally" written they really are of little spiritual value, and often are physiological impossibilities, or don’t tell us things we didn’t already know.
Look at the parable of the tares: A man sews good seed. An enemy sews tares. A servant suggests they pull out the tares. The owner suggests that would pull out the good wheat as well.. So he says to wait till harvest and then separate the wheat from the tares, (Mat. 13:24-30). None of the parables are to be understood in their literal language. Some, like Lazarus and the Rich man, are physiological impossibilities if taken literally.
Interestingly, this parable of the tares can be taken literally. That is it makes sense even in its literal language, and does not contradict other Scriptures.
However, it was not meant to be taken literally, and if we take this parable "literally," what do we learn? Quite frankly, not much. Are you suggesting that Christ wasted His time giving little household hints and horticultural tips? Like, how to weed your garden? Come on.
When Christ explains this parable to His disciples, it takes on enormous meaning never even suggested in the "literal" story. Parables are in some ways like fine poetry. Marvelous word pictures having giant spiritual applications and ramifications can be presented with very few words, AND, it is God’s purpose to conceal many of the truths of His Kingdom except to those to whom it is given to understand.
See the spiritual application of Matt. 14:37-43:
The "sower" is none less than the Son of man.
The "field" is the world.
The "good seed" are the children of the Kingdom of God.
The "tares" are the children of the wicked one (Satan).
The "harvest" is the end of the age.
Now that’s some pretty heavy stuff! This is no horticultural tip for would be farmers. I have already shown how utterly ludicrous it is to try and take Lararus and the Rich man literally, not to mention totally unscriptural..
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mercy, peace, and love
Katt
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Hasn't Ray referred to the entire Bible as a parable?
Does counting this story as a parable change its meaning or its teaching points?
Does it matter whether Jesus' teaching methods were "Based On Actual Events" or not? What if we were to discover that the Lazarus story was fictionalized to make its point or that the Prodigal Son characters were real? Would this change anything?
Peace
Let me try again....
Shakespeare mused that should we call a rose by another name, would it lose its scent?
My point is not about the validity of the teachings in Jesus' parables. My point is what does it matter whether we get his teachings derive from fictionalized stories or not? The lesson is the thing. Does it matter whether we call the Lazarus lesson a "parable" or not? I am pretty sure that the modern definition of "parable" requires that it be fiction. I am not sure what the 1st century definition is. At any rate, my point is that we should not fret whether Lazarus was an actual person rather focus on the teaching from that anecdote.
Peace
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Hi Pax,
Yes see what you're saying, that is a truth for sure, it is the message that is important, by whatever means He brings it to us.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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;D
Hold on to your chairs folks.....
I am in full agreement with Pax on this one! :o
It does not add or take away from the message of Christ whether a certain lesson refers to a literal or fictional event.
The bible is full of metaphors, similes, figures of speech, etc.
From Lake of Fire Part 1; http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
BIBLICAL FIGURES OF SPEECH
Here are some of the fully substantiated figures of language used in Scripture. I borrowed many of these examples from an appendix in the back of The Concordant Literal New Testament.
We will begin with FIGURES OF LIKENESS which include:
similes (when something is like, or as something else, it is a simile rather than a metaphor)
metaphors (where one thing is said to actually be something else) as in, "all life is grass" I Pet. 1:24. Therefore, the subject of this paper IS a metaphor and CANNOT be literal: John says, "...the lake of fire, This IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14), and "...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the second death" (Rev. 21:8)
implications
parables (there are many, the shortest one being, "Physician, heal Thyself" Luke 4:23)
allegories (as in the two women standing for two covenants, Gal. 4:22-28)
visions (as in a sheet let down from heaven, Acts 10:11-16)
signs (as in the sign of Jonah the prophet, Matt. 12:39)
types (as in Adam corresponding with Christ, Rom. 5:12-21)
shadows (as in the law being a shadow of good things to come, Heb. 10:1)
examples (as in the tabernacle vessels being examples of what is in heaven , Heb. 9:23)
images (as Christ is the image of God, Col. 1:15)
impersonations or personifications (where things are spoken of as persons)
condescension's (as where God takes on human attributes)
diminutives (as in "little women, heaped with sins" II Tim. 3:6)
There are FIGURES OF ASSOCIATION which include:
association or metonymy's
appellations (as when a quality or office is used instead of a proper name, as in "Son of Mankind" instead of saying Jesus Christ)
compound associations (as "the word of the cross" I Cor. 1:18, which has to do with Christ’s shameful and agonizing death)
near associations (as in a phrase that is partly literal, "Then went out to Him Jerusalem [that is the people of Jerusalem]", Matt. 3:5)
retention's (this one is too complicated to explain, but I’ll give you an example, "the tablets of the heart" II Cor. 3:3)
circumlocutions or periphrasis (what is "circumlocution"? Well, it’s a descriptive phrase in place of a name in order to emphasize the association. Examples, "the product of the grapevine [though not named is, wine]" Matt. 26:29, "the city of David [though not named is, Bethlehem]" Luke 2:11,
enigmas, and symbols (where a known object or something else is used to typify something else, or even an intangible quality such as love, power, beauty, etc.)
Peace,
Joe
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I...am....post-less!
Peace
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I am in agreement that the entire Bible is a parable, but CIY mentioned that the Bible says the Bible is a parable....I am not familiar with a particular scripture. Is this an inferrence (sp)? to Christ speaking to the multitudes only in parables?? Chapter and verse(s) please.
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Sasscell
If you have software or a website to do it on, do a search of "parable" and it is in the bible 50 times. Read those verses and ponder their meaning. To me the most direct reference to the bible being a parable is Psalm 78:1-3, Ezekiel 17:2, and Mark 4:34.
Also you may want to search the word "proverb" which is the same as parable.
See what you see.
CIY
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Sorry, ciy, I am with sasscell on this. I do not see where the Bible refers to itself ever, let alone describing itself as a parable, proverb, or allegory.
Peace
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It matters greatly that Lararus and the Rich man is not literal. If it were literal it would be in contradiction with the rest of the Bilble.
It is important to know this.
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CIY has got this right, Christ is the Word and the Word is a parable understood only by those whom He chooses to receive understanding.
KJV
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Rotherham's
Mat 13:10 And the disciples coming near said to Him, Wherefore in parables art thou speaking to them?
Mat 13:11 And He answering said, Because unto you hath it been given, to get to know the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, whereas unto them hath it not been given.
This still applies to all the spiritual Truths contained in Scripture.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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It matters greatly that Lararus and the Rich man is not literal. If it were literal it would be in contradiction with the rest of the Bilble.
It is important to know this.
Hi Bobby,
If you understand the true spiritual message the physical application is moot or in this case (Lazaras parable) a given, of course it isn't literal, but there are cases where the historical event is a shadow of a deeper more profound spiritual event.
I hope this helps,
Joe
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Ciy, I don't have e-sword on this computer, but I did look up the scriptures you mentioned. I don't see these scriptures as specific, but infered as I stated. However, I am reminded of this:
1Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them FOR EXAMPLES: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
It is accepted commonly I think that all Israel went through is a physical paralell of our spiritual life...did I say that right, spell that right?? ;) I think that is a bit more solid.
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there are cases where the historical event is a shadow of a deeper more profound spiritual event.
Joe,
I agree with you, however, this is not one of those cases. If we take this parable literally it contradicts the rest of the Bible in regards to the death state.
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Good scriptures Joe, thanks, but a question. Christ is clearly the Word, BUT is Christ the scriptures? Obviously, The Word was around "in the beginning" long before the scriptures. I'm being serious, is there a difference? Does Ray have something on this??
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Hello Bobby
You observe quite rightly I believe If we take this parable literally it contradicts the rest of the Bible in regards to the death state...
To add : what is deeply insightful is that " The REASON for so many desiring to take this parable literally is an attempt to add credence to the HERETICAL teaching that God Almighty is going to torture the vast majority of all humanity." First page Lazarus and the Rich Man L. Ray Smith.http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
For me, this offers a powerful discernment of motive of the heart that is certainly the Babylonian heart of deceptive and false teachings of Church leaders who will not budge regarding what they think is the truth!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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there are cases where the historical event is a shadow of a deeper more profound spiritual event.
Joe,
I agree with you, however, this is not one of those cases. If we take this parable literally it contradicts the rest of the Bible in regards to the death state.
True Bobby, I thought I was clear on that, my apology if I was not.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Sasscell,
That is a great verse for us.
"All happened to them as an example" An example is like a parable, in the case of the bible it is written in a way to take the physical happening as a parable of the spiritual truth. The Word is Christ and we must realize that it is "spirit and it is truth". It really is "is, was, and will be" for everyone, but it only will have that meaning for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
CIY
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Let me tell you where I get tripped up Ciy. I can see how Israel is parabolic as in the aforementiond scripture, I can even see the law as parabolic. Where I get tripped up is the prophets. Obviously the prophecies are metafores and parables, but how to see them as part of ONE GIANT PARABLE is the problem.. I hope I am saying this right. Ley me clarify at bit if I may....I can see how the whole Bible is parabolic (is that a word?) BUT, stringing them all together into one parable is, well, harder.
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Good scriptures Joe, thanks, but a question. Christ is clearly the Word, BUT is Christ the scriptures? Obviously, The Word was around "in the beginning" long before the scriptures. I'm being serious, is there a difference? Does Ray have something on this??
Hi sasscell,
Here are Christ's Words relating to His association to Scripture.
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
The Scriptures give us hope;
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Christ gives us hope;
1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
The Scriptures which testify of our Lord is the hope of our salvation. They are One and the same.
The Spirit of Christ is the Comforter and the Word of God
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Everything in the Bible every Word of Scripture testifies of Christ, His Word and Spirit are the same thing, Truth, Hope & Salvavtion.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hello CIY
Your well stated observation : take the physical happening as a parable of the spiritual truth.
resonated for me, with the very first principle of understanding God Given Truths : http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
TRUTH NUMBER 1
[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).
"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).
[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).
[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).
The sequence of God’s plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.
Sasscell, if you perhaps go and digest the above insight plus the remaining eleven tools to help us discern what God Almighty means, and with Gods Will, you may get a glimmer of this very bright Truth. It is vivid, startlingly dazzling and quite untaught in Orthadox Christianity. Understanding is by HIS Spirit and maybe HE is dragging you to keep digging!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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That was great to pull that up Arcturus. I was just rereading over the 12 Truths before lunch.
Sasscell, Arcturus has got the info. I am not a teacher. I am an encourager. Ray is a teacher and all of this we are talking about is in his teachings. See your eyes like mine are being opened. You feel some of this already, so keep reading the bible and then Ray's writings will be like a guide and a prover of what God is opening your eyes to see. I continue to read Ray's writings because they are my encouragement to keep believing what I am seeing with my spiritual eyes. I know of no one that I can meet with that believes the truth of the Word, so I must stay focused on the truth so that the foolishness of the world does not entice me back into it.
That said, I love Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc and all of the minor prophets because they are just a stark parable to me of the religious system and how we are to be separated out. They really are all "many are called and few are chosen".
Keep seeking and keep reading the Word.
CIY
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12 Truths before lunch. ciy....You got THAT RIGHT! And lunch is a BANQUET!
Keep digging Sasscell. It builds up an appetite and an appetite is the best gravy on any meal!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Sasscell, I thought I'd try to find a statement from Ray on the whole bible being a parable... and I thought somewhere in his work he did say something to this effect, but the exact place escapes me... so I've been searching for it armed with this new Ctrl/F "word find" function Kat informed us about... and I've been goin' to town with the search... which is still ongoing although a bit time consuming... (it's fun :D, no worries.)
Anyway... and you're right, parabolic is a word that is synonymous with allegoric. So to perhaps give you another line-up of words... here are some from Ray, a little from here and there, to maybe have the big picture add up more for you. All emphasis his, but I will add my own emphasis in green.
"Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true. The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible that are not literally true…." [LOF Part 1, P.7]
"I want to quickly show my readers just how impossible it is to assume most of God’s word is literal. Again I state: All God’s Word is TRUE; however, much of it is figurative language which is not literally true to fact, but rather in what the figurative language of symbols, metaphors and parables represent." [LOF Part 1, P. 8]
"Jesus only taught to the multitudes IN PARABLES! Nothing else, just PARABLES! How many believe that? [P.1]… Christ spoke in parables only so that the multitudes would not and could not understand His words!" [P.3] [LOF Part 4]
"A parable is a story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Parables are HIGHER, SPIRITUAL, GLORIOUS teachings of ETERNAL things. Literally they are of little consequence; spiritually they are of enormous consequence." [LOF Part 4, P.2]
"And in the last book of the New Testament, Revelation, we have a whole book of symbols, figures, and metaphors. And the material between Matthew and Revelation is a mountain of spiritual instruction and teaching." [LOF Part 4, P.1]
I realized this doesn't put THE WHOLE thing on a plate yet for you, but I will keep you informed if my search turns up a ringer of truth.
I think it interesting that you ask "Is Christ the Scriptures?" [Which I think, yes in a spiritual sense of course for both the O.T. and N.T. as the Spokesman for God.] This makes me wonder further if the Scriptures/Word of God will be necessary in His coming Kingdom? Just a thought. All the examples, prophecies, instructions and lessons contained within will then have been fulfilled. The "words" will have become literal spirits, ha ha :D. Just sittin here scratchin my head...
More later,
Janice :)
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Hi sasscell,
Ciy, Joe and others did have verses to show you, I also have other verse about parable for multiples:
Mat 13:34 "All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable."
I remember Ray's article of "Lazarus and the Rich man", that is where I notice that verse. ;) I thought maybe give you more insight. :)
Brett
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Hi Janice,
This makes me wonder further if the Scriptures/Word of God will be necessary in His coming Kingdom? Just a thought. All the examples, prophecies, instructions and lessons contained within will then have been fulfilled. The "words" will have become literal spirits,
This is a good thought, I think that will be true. It is one thing to know what the scripture say. But as spirit, when we become one with God, we will embrace it with our whole being, that is life.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Here is what I could find about Bible being a giant parable :)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2891.0.html ---------
Hi ray,
Thanks for the encouragement.. can you tell me what you mean when you say all of the scriptures are a parable?
Thanks,
Dave
Dear Dave:
Well, not really, not in less than a hour or so, but I'll give you a hint. God is the Creator. He made everything. He made everthing for a purpose. There is one grand goal that God has for the entire human race. The Christian Church has not a CLUE as to what that goal is or how it will be accomplish. The whole plan and purpose is outlined in the Scriptures. But just as NONE of the people who heard Jesus teach in parables, understood His parables, so the Whole Bible is one GIANT parable which the Church does not understand. In a nutshell: God is creating the human race into HIS VERY OWN SPIRITUAL IMAGE. Oh, I thought that already was accomplished back in the Garden, wasn't it? I told you it's all one GIANT PARABLE!
God be with you,
Ray
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ---------------------
THE BIBLE IS A GIANT PARABLE
Not only is the Bible a giant parable, but, all creation is a giant parable. Is it not real? Oh, it is real all right. But what we see, hear, and feel, in this physical universe, is not the lasting spiritual reality of God’s purpose for creation. In parables, the literalness of the words is but a symbol that stands for something spiritual and grand. The physical words of all parables will pass away, however, the spiritual fulfillment of those physical words will never pass away. This is another marvelous spiritual principal of understanding and wisdom. I have covered this before, but it certain warrants repeating. Paul presents us with this grand parable of creation, life, and the final destiny of the entire universe:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION.
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Christ] was made A QUICKENING [vivifying, living, immortal] SPIRIT
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards that which is SPIRITUAL.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from HEAVEN [the realm of spirit].
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are HEAVENLY.
And as we [all humanity born of physical Adam] have born the image of the earthy, we [all humanity born of spiritual Jesus, the Christ] shall also bear the image of the HEAVENLY [Christ]" (I Cor. 15:41-49).
Can we even begin to comprehend what we have just read? But we are not there as yet. The physical part of this parable is still being played out on this physical stage of the universe. The final curtain of this heavenly play will not come down until all of the Acts have first been performed. And the drama is building as we near the climax.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks for all the input, i can see what you are saying. Let me throw this out there ;D (please understand I am not arguing, just thinking out loud) SO, Christ speaks to the multitudes in parables, thus the whole Bible is a parable because the Bible was givin to the whole earth. BUT, Christ did speak PLAINLY to His disciples like when He expounded to them The Parable of the Sower. AND, does Paul only speak in parables? Pauls letters are written directly to the called, chosen and elect, was there a nescessity to speak in parables to them? (not that he didn't use them) I don't think so HOWEVER, HOWEVER, God doesn't need a parable to keep someone from seeing something!! I don't think Paul wrote in parables, but MAN it is CRAZY how we can be supernaturally blinded by PLAIN WORDS!!
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Sascall,
Supernatural indeed! Here is my most favorite quote ever from Ray... It is also quite humorous...
Many years ago I learned something most profound: "The ‘blind’ can’t see!"
Not many theologians believe that. Surely, if we present it in just the right way, they will see. No, they won’t. If they get sick enough of their life and sins, then they will see. No, they won’t. If we tell them often enough and with enough conviction, with hundreds of scriptures, and with charts and diagrams, and with analogies and examples, surely then at least "some" of the blind will see. No, they won’t. I’ll tell you why. Because the blind cannot see. I told you it was profound. You can hold it closer to their face, you can shout, you can shine a bright light on it. It doesn’t matter, "The blind can’t see!"
Christendom teaches that if people want to see and understand, then they can. It's all up to them. No it’s not. I know people who are physically blind, and they want to see, but they can’t because the blind can’t see.
When God Almighty "blinds" someone, they cannot see. I do not entertain any such notion that this paper will persuade anyone who is blind, to see it’s truth, unless God uses it to open their mind and remove the blindness. Let the Scriptures speak:
"Does not God thrust away His people?... God DOES NOT thrust away His people whom He fore knew" (Rom. 11:1-2).
"Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice [God’s choice] of grace" (Rom. 11:8 ).
"What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen [those God chose] encountered it. Now the rest [the rest of the Jews, all the rest of Israel] were calloused..." (Rom. 11:7).
Who calloused them? Who is operating all? Now pay close attention to this next verse. I just checked twenty-six translations and the Greek Text to be sure I’m right on this point, and they all say same the same thing.
"GOD gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day" (Rom. 11:8 ).
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SO TRUE BOBBY!! "As in Adam all die, so shall in Christ all be made alive" MIGHT AS WELL NOT EVEN BE THERE!! That is a pretty plain scripture to me. ANYWAY, I was talking to a Catholic friend of mine about the Bible recently, she said she doesn't read the Bible as I asked why. She said she tries but the words are just all jumbled up like, she said she can see the words and they are easy words, but reading it just makes her feel weird. WOW!! I remember that!! When I first started reading the Bible, I got through the gospels easily, but ACTS!! I hit a wall!! I guess that was all the further God wanted me to go at that point.
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Great post Bobby,
A while back when researching another topic I ran into these (there are tons more to be found).
Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant.
Pro 3:32 For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.
Daniel who is a shadow/type of the elect had this encounter with Nebuchadnezzar;
Dan 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
Hello again sasscell,
Peter speaks this of Paul and the inability of most to understand scripture, it is fairly obvious that this still holds true today;
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe, are you saying that because something is "hard to be understood" or a"secret" that makes it a parable? I'm not getting that connection via the scriptures that have been posted.
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Joe and Bobby,
It is amazing that it takes a miracle of God to blind people from seeing what is staring them in their face.
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
But the verses that amaze me are Romans 5:10-21. I have had many Christians read these verses and not be able to understand what it is clearly saying. At 5 times it says that as in Adam sin came to all so that through Jesus all are forgiven of their sins, but they cannot see these truths.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
To me these are just so overpowering it takes a completely blind person to not see it.
CIY
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Joe, are you saying that because something is "hard to be understood" or a"secret" that makes it a parable? I'm not getting that connection via the scriptures that have been posted.
Hi sasscell,
Remember the disciples asking Jesus why He spoke in parables and pleading with Him to speak plainly? They wanted to know the message contained in His Words. They were anxious to understand the hidden meanings, the secrets of these parables, what do they mean?
This statement of the bible being one big parable is in itself is a metaphor, simile, an enigma, a figure of speach, it is symbolism, unless the Spirit of God opens our eyes and ears these secret meanings will not be revealed to us.
The following quote is from Lake of Fire Part 1;
"For all too many, these marvelous Scriptures have no meaning beyond the literal meaning of the literal words. And so, for most, the Word of God remains a giant enigma. How sad!"
Also there is this from Lake of Fire Part 16;
THE GOSPEL THAT NO ONE UNDERSTOOD
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, ‘Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand'" (Matt. 4:17).
Did anyone know what Jesus was talking about? No. Did anyone know what "repent" really meant? No. Did anyone have even a clue as to what Jesus meant by "The Kingdom of Heaven?" No. The "Kingdom of Heaven" was the gospel that Jesus preached. But did anyone really know what it was? How many even today know what "the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven" really is? Do you know? Could you teach a class on exactly what the Kingdom of Heaven really is?
One will never know what Jesus preached until they understand how Jesus preached.
When will we begin believing what Jesus taught us concerning the words He used to teach? If you will pay heed to what Jesus taught, you will learn more in five minutes than you would otherwise is 50 years. Listen:
After reading parable after parable, beginning in Matt. 13, we read this:
"And great multitudes were gathered together unto Him… and He spoke many things unto them IN PARABLES…" (Verses 2-3).
"Another parable put He forth unto them…" (Ver. 24).
"Another parable put He forth unto them…" (Ver. 31).
"Another parable spoke He unto them…" (Ver. 33).
"ALL these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Ver. 34).
"And with many such parables spoke He the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spoke He not unto them: and when they were alone, He expounded [‘explained’ John 10:6] all things to His disciples" (Mark 4:33-34).
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs [Gk: ‘figurative language’]: but the time comes, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father" (John 16:25).
Remember that John 16 is recording the last words of our Lord before the crucifixion the following day. So up until that very last night with His disciples He had spoken His own public ministry in proverbs and parables—figurative language, symbols and signs. And we have a further verification of these statements when Jesus said: "…the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT…" (John 6:63)! Has anyone ever heard of a seminary which teaches these truths of Scripture?
All of the Scriptures were inspired by the Spirit of Christ, even the literal things have a deeper spiritual "secret" behind them. To the mainstream churches these spiritual messages are hidden there are verses that seem to be clear to the carnal ear but the spiritual parable is not understood or even recognized as such.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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What you are saying Joe is comming a bit more clear. I have experienced at times what I would call a depth to the scriptures. Sometimes, I am not just reading the scriptures but can almost look down into it as if the scriptures have dimension. I can see this happening in so called plain written scriptures as well. In that case, I can see what you are saying to be true.
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HI CIY,
It is so true about the spiritual blindness.
After a series of disasters in my young life I earnestly prayed, begged, pleaded through tears for God to let me in on His plan and purpose, it took Him 34 years to answer me, that day of understanding began on August 2, 2005 when I stumbled onto Bible Truths, Googling a combination of words that led me to the site. I have tried entering the same words "weather Revelation" and have never duplicated the result.
Between the time of that prayer which I misinterpreted as "The Final Answer" I was immediately led to the SDA church, lost interest, went back into the world, actually dove into the world of pleasure seeking and selfishness. There were many ups and downs, serious ups and downs but deep within me I always felt as if God was watching over me. After almost getting killed (more than a few times), almost getting myself long prison terms, living like a bum, living as a criminal, slowly but surely things got better.
At a time quite a few years later when many would have seen me as successful in virtually all measures I began to feel as if I was an empty entity, a hole in my being so large you could drive a truck through, something was missing but I had no clue as to what it was. Well, that night in August of '05 I realized what it was and my prayer of 34 years ago I could see was finally being answered in a way I could understand. I know now that all the things that led up to that night were beneficial and were not wasted moments in time but the method in which the Lord is creating me.
Having these secrets opened up is beyond gratifying but yet very humbling, I am almost always asking Him, why me? These treasures of His sacred secrets have begun to make me feel as if I am now being completed, to be formed into His image at that wonderful day to come, the resurrection. Even as I hope and pray to be included in the first it still gives me peace to realize there is a second resurrection that will also lead to salvation.
I guess I really got off track, but once I get on a roll I can't seem to shut it down.....
My apology & His Peace to you,
Joe
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What you are saying Joe is comming a bit more clear. I have experienced at times what I would call a depth to the scriptures. Sometimes, I am not just reading the scriptures but can almost look down into it as if the scriptures have dimension. I can see this happening in so called plain written scriptures as well. In that case, I can see what you are saying to be true.
;D
Yes, the Scriptures are not one dimensional! They are richly textured and have levels of depth that become more apparent and more incredible as we study, pray and meditate on them.
The treasure that is His Word is richer and more bountiful than we ever could have imagined before His Spirit began to unlock them to us.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Joe
I know what you mean about the working and leading of God in one's life. This summary of your testimony is encouraging.
I may have gone opposite of you. I got successful then got completely distracted in Bablyon. Put most of my time and effort in to having a "Christian business", lost it all and more, so now people think I am a nut and my crazy beliefs have made me a failure. I know that I was led by the spirit into what I have done the last 7 years and that everything had to happen exactly the way God caused it to happen or I would not be in this blessed position of knowledge and faith that I now possess.
Grace truly does abound.
CIY
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THANKS KAT, YOU FOUND 'EM!! BLESS YOU! YAY! :)
So the concept that Jesus taught only in parables so the multitudes wouldn't know.... is actually a parable in itself... relaying how.... the process of how God's supernatural spiritual blinding was taking place and is still taking place today. I hadn't realized this extra dimension. Cool! 8)
Thanks to ALL!
Joy, Janice
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Bobby
Thank you very much for that quote from Ray. I believe it hits the nail sqarely on the head! What is the link for that excerpt?
In the mean time I am going to re-read the teaching on Winning Souls for Jesus? at link : http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
I believe it connects to this treasure of Truth!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus,
The quote is taken from very near the end of the Lazarus and the Rich Man paper.
:)
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Thank you Bobby
I plan go and reintegrate that very profound teaching from the Lazarus paper.
Your post has caused me to go and re-look at the teachings within Winning Souls for Jesus that I am seeing has a direct bearing on the topic currently under discussion.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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From : Winning Souls for Jesus.
You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God’s Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but loose the sale," so don’t argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Joe
Hello ciy,
I know what you mean about the working and leading of God in one's life. This summary of your testimony is encouraging.
Thank you, we all have an unique jouney.
I may have gone opposite of you.
We all have a One on one relationship with the Lord, it is not like He deals with us as a group, or is creating us in a "one size fits all" fashion." I believe it is best explained by the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 12;
1 Corinthians 12
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Now some may say that this is only defining the different gifts of the Spirit but we know Scripture is not one dimensional but it is deeply layered with the treasure of His Truths buried within, revealing secrets to more than one answer to one question only.
I got successful then got completely distracted in Bablyon. Put most of my time and effort in to having a "Christian business", lost it all and more, so now people think I am a nut and my crazy beliefs have made me a failure.
;D That in itself should testify that you are on the right path!
I know that I was led by the spirit into what I have done the last 7 years and that everything had to happen exactly the way God caused it to happen or I would not be in this blessed position of knowledge and faith that I now possess.
Absolute agreement here, the narrow path that is written about does not mean we are all marching single file experiencing the exact same things but rather this narrow path is a unique and personal route He elected us to walk through with all the pitfalls and lessons specifically designed to create us to be prepared for the particular (peculiar?) office He has in store for us as the Body of Christ doing the work willed and desired by the Father.
Grace truly does abound.
Amen!
CIY
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Joe
You are proof this is a place to come for knowledge, encouragement, and growth in the Word.
Thanks and God bless this place.
CIY
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Joe
You are proof this is a place to come for knowledge, encouragement, and growth in the Word.
Thanks and God bless this place.
CIY
A big Amen to that!
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Does counting this story as a parable change its meaning or its teaching points?Peace
YES!!
Mark