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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Gabriel on September 15, 2010, 08:38:26 PM
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I was thinking about Ray's paper An Encouraging Thought About Death, and how science can be a useful aid in studying scripture and also disproving traditions of men so it came to me if we really go "somewhere else" when we die why is it that when we suffer brain damage or something else that can cause us to lose our memory well...why do we lose our memory??? or how about nerve damage? So if we really had an "immortal soul" like most of the church teaches we should be able to keep our thoughts and sensations regardless! Just a thought :)
Gabriel
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I was thinking about Ray's paper An Encouraging Thought About Death, and how science can be a useful aid in studying scripture and also disproving traditions of men so it came to me if we really go "somewhere else" when we die why is it that when we suffer brain damage or something else that can cause us to lose our memory well...why do we lose our memory??? or how about nerve damage? So if we really had an "immortal soul" like most of the church teaches we should be able to keep our thoughts and sensations regardless! Just a thought :)
Gabriel
Good thought.
What Christians, pagans, and all those under organized religion fail to understand is that we don't "have" souls, we ourselves ARE "living souls". Humans and animals are living souls who are given life through the Spirit ["Breath"] of God. People mistakenly use "soul" and "spirit" interchangeably. But they are nothing alike.
I've been trying to help my mom understand this for over a year now. She's really the only person that I talk to about this stuff. I finally was able to free her of the Rapture theory a few months ago, and she now understands what those verses actually mean, so at least we're getting somewhere. ;D
Daywalker 8)
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Hi Gabriel,
why is it that when we suffer brain damage or something else that can cause us to lose our memory well...why do we lose our memory??? or how about nerve damage?
When someone suffers brain damage the brain which is a physical organ becomes impaired and does not function proper. So if the part of the brain that is used for our memory is damaged, then that part no longer does what it was designed to do... right? Now if a person has a damaged arm, leg or eye, then that body part will no longer work properly either... right? So these things that happen to the physical body it will effect our physical life now.
When everyone is resurrected back to life at the resurrection of the dead, it is my belief that Christ will heal the physical ailments of people and restore or correct their physical body. If you think about it this was a big part of His earthly ministery, healing and certainly He will not change. So I think when He heals a person's damaged brain and it is made right He will also restore their memory. Just like a person that has his arm, leg or eye restored would then be able to use it too. I really don't see how it has anything to do with an immortal soul.
This is just what I think and hope that it is of some help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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We are living souls. I don't believe in an immortal soul but through my post I was showing that we don't keep our thoughts and sensations after death and brain and nerve damage in life can prove this, so we aren't alive in some other place when we die like most of the church teaches. I told this to a friend once and she said well "I never thought of it that way before." :)
God be with you all,
Gabriel
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Yes that is a good point and I agree.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I was thinking about Ray's paper An Encouraging Thought About Death, and how science can be a useful aid in studying scripture and also disproving traditions of men so it came to me if we really go "somewhere else" when we die why is it that when we suffer brain damage or something else that can cause us to lose our memory well...why do we lose our memory??? or how about nerve damage? So if we really had an "immortal soul" like most of the church teaches we should be able to keep our thoughts and sensations regardless! Just a thought :)
Gabriel
Hi Gabriel,
Your above Post displays a logical and thinking analysis and displays good reasoning. It certainly helps me to appreciate that Our Conscious Thoughts don't exist beyond This Life. All of Us require a Resurrection from the Dead. Your Post further supports Ecclesiastes. 9:5,10; Psalms. 146:3,4; Psalm. 104:29,30; Ecclesiastes. 3:19,20. Paraphrase from these passages: " Dead are conscious of nothing." Spirit goes out, thoughts do perish." " Mankind and Beast return to the Dust." etc, etc. Sorry, I don't have E sword, my Wife was supposed to retrieve it from wherever it disappeared.
But, Here's the thing Gabriel, some people like You and I and Others at BT desire facts, have reasoning skills, want to know the truth, take the time to investigate and desire to know more. God is the CAUSE of this All in us desiring these Truths and hungering for more. How often do We reason with people using clear irrefutable facts and they can't see it and don't want it. Some have said it's a miracle that anyone finds out about these truths that We learn here and Some have said it's even amazing that they don't see it. In my experiences, believing in "Free Will" and "The Immortality of Some Conscious Thought that lives On" seem to be tied for first place among those that are Spiritually deceived. Indeed, it's a Strong Idol of the Heart. The groundwork on those teachings begin early on in Childhood, those were probably the first two spiritual lies that I was taught growing up and by Parents that didn't even go or care about Church. Sad but True, most of Mankind will continue to believe these lies until the day they die. That's why there's much Joy when someone is given the Truth about these things and We get to know them. After all, sometimes it gets lonely out here in the World, Spiritually speaking, ;).
Appreciated Your Points, Samson.
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Very interesting thread. Just went to a funeral and they think the fun begins...He is looking down, he is playing baseball, he is etc etc....The dead are dead till the resurrection. ! Cor 15:25-28 and 53-56 is a good timeline.
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Very interesting thread. Just went to a funeral and they think the fun begins...He is looking down, he is playing baseball, he is etc etc....The dead are dead till the resurrection. ! Cor 15:25-28 and 53-56 is a good timeline.
Gmik, this has become a big problem for me now. I believe in the Scriptures, but having empathy I have no heart to tell somebody stricken by personal tragedy like death of someone close to him/her that what they believe is a false doctrine. Try to imagine this kind of situation - you have to talk to a father whose daughter has been raped and murdered and he consoles himself, stating that his daughter is in Heaven now. But you berates him, stating she is completely dead, her body is now decaying in a grave, she has absolutely no consciousness at all, theoretically she ceased to exist. And her executioner is alive and at large.
What I say next might be shocking for some, but sometimes I think a lie is better than a truth. I don't think we should "enforce" that truth at any cost, we should wait for better opportunity or count on that God will lead this person to the truth at a proper time.
Gmik, please don't feel offended by my statement. I didn't mean to judge you and I don't imply you have no sensitivity and empathy inside of you.
God, bless you
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Janine, I see you understand me perfectly :) If this lie "helps" somebody to go through hard moments of his/her life, then maybe let him/her "live" in this lie, until good opportunity comes up to reveal the truth to this person.
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I would not correct the "little lie" at those times, but neither would I instigate or further it either. Sometimes silence is golden.
Craig
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Well spoken, Craig :)
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Dawidos, I understand what you're saying perfectly. We should always try to be gentle in spirit in how we deliver things.
However, on the flip side, we must also be honest and firm with upholding truth.
Sometimes, I think part of our tribulation IS the hate we receive from our brothers/sisters when we tell the truth.. Because the truth often hurts.
Each of us have to find the balance in our approach, and unfortunately that mostly comes from trial and error (the most painful way as well).
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Indeed, there are :) :) I thinkt Shawn has spoken great wisdom, especially in this statement
Sometimes, I think part of our tribulation IS the hate we receive from our brothers/sisters when we tell the truth.. Because the truth often hurts
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Janine, I see you understand me perfectly :) If this lie "helps" somebody to go through hard moments of his/her life, then maybe let him/her "live" in this lie, until good opportunity comes up to reveal the truth to this person.
We walk on shaky ground thinking that a little lie is alright in our Spiritual journey.No matter how small the lie may be,none the less, a sin is a sin and all sinners will have their place in the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Carnal thinking is unacceptable in Spirit and Truth.
I agree with Craig, it is best at times to keep quiet and to let Gods work be done as needed, to the one in need.
Here is a great Word picture about Christ's feelings on the dead...
Mat 8:21 And another of His disciples said to him, Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 Jesus answered, "Come with me, and let the dead bury their dead."
As hard as it may seem at times,dying to ones self is something that must take place if The Kingdom is the intended target.
Mat 5:10 Happy, they who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake; for, theirs, is the kingdom of the heavens.
Peace...Mark
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Agree, Mark. I meant remaining silent to not hurt somebody during the worst period of his/her life, not telling them more lies.
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My thought is when you are dead, you will know nothing. Time means nothing, there are no dimensions until resurrection. I just don't agree with the preachers that say Sister so-in-so is with the Lord right now. She knows nothing and will not know anything until the resurrection.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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To All,
I need some help as I have opened my mouth when maybe I should have kept it close. I told a friend that I believe that GOD will save all, including Satan. He was very disturbed and thinks I am way over board. I tried to explain that I thought GOD would save Hitler, Ted Bundy and many others but only through fire and age abiding correction. He is not at all receptive and said he did not want to talk further. Any support or correction will be very much appreciated.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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To All,
I need some help as I have opened my mouth when maybe I should have kept it close. I told a friend that I believe that GOD will save all, including Satan. He was very disturbed and thinks I am way over board. I tried to explain that I thought GOD would save Hitler, Ted Bundy and many others but only through fire and age abiding correction. He is not at all receptive and said he did not want to talk further. Any support or correction will be very much appreciated.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
Matt 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
Luke 11:23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
Acts 5:38-39 ...if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God
Like the 1st passage says, he who is NOT with Christ is against Christ. So to your friend you can let it be known it's not about agreeing with you but abiding in what God says He will do.
As for the 2nd passage, if it is of God, one cannot overthrow it. So to your friend you can use this as an example that it makes no difference to get all in a huff...if it is of God it will prevail, if it is not, it will fail.
Marques
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We could just tell them that their loved ones are sleeping, and it would not even be a lie. :)
Gabriel
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Agree, Mark. I meant remaining silent to not hurt somebody during the worst period of his/her life, not telling them more lies.
Dawidos ,sorry for the misinterpretation of the point you were making.
My bad. :-[
Thank-you.
Carry on. 8)
Peace...Mark
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yo ??? ??? ::) :P :-X >:( >:( hold up here.........re read my post.....I was telling the forum what they were saying at the funeral....and yes I just sat there and listened to the sermon.
NEVER DID I OR WOULD I SAY ANYTHING TO A GRIEVING PERSON. Good Lord!!!!!
Wow...I am shocked...I forget you don't know me but I have been around here for awhile and on this earth for awhile. And yes, you WERE judging.
Not to worry, I am not offended...I just want the record straight....I DID NOT TALK to anyone about anything at the funeral.
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Wow...I am shocked...I forget you don't know me but I have been around here for awhile and on this earth for awhile. And yes, you WERE judging.
Not to worry, I am not offended...I just want the record straight....I DID NOT TALK to anyone about anything at the funeral.
Gmik,
Who are you talking about? Maybe you and this person can clear the air in a PM, to avoid any confusion and potential strife.
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I would not correct the "little lie" at those times, but neither would I instigate or further it either. Sometimes silence is golden.
you are sometimes golden craig. 8)
claudia
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Thanks dawidos. It's all borrowed wisdom though ;)
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We could just tell them that their loved ones are sleeping, and it would not even be a lie.
Yeah, a very good explanation. A well hidden truth :), Gabriel
Thanks dawidos. It's all borrowed wisdom though
You are welcome, brother :)
Dawidos ,sorry for the misinterpretation of the point you were making.
My bad.
Thank-you.
Carry on.
No offence taken, brother :) Blessing to you
yo hold up here.........re read my post.....I was telling the forum what they were saying at the funeral....and yes I just sat there and listened to the sermon.
NEVER DID I OR WOULD I SAY ANYTHING TO A GRIEVING PERSON. Good Lord!!!!!
Wow...I am shocked...I forget you don't know me but I have been around here for awhile and on this earth for awhile. And yes, you WERE judging.
Not to worry, I am not offended...I just want the record straight....I DID NOT TALK to anyone about anything at the funeral.
I've already got a private message and I've sent a reply to Gmik. I hope everything is fine now :) It was simple misunderstanding. I just said what is a problem for me, what I woudn't do in some situations. I have never judged Gmik and suggested she had done something inappropriate. Gmik, you have my full respect :)
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Hi beloved,
This has been an interesting and illuminating thread. It seems to me that there are at least three subjects here.
1. Dealing with grieving people.
2. Life after death.
3. Allowing the belief of a lie.
1. Dealing with grieving people.
Aren't we exhorted to, "..mourn with those who mourn." ?
2. Life after death.
I think John from Kentucky absolutely nailed it.
3. Believing a lie.
It appears that God in His infinite wisdom has made use of this by allowing each and every one of us here to believe the lies of Christendom, some of us for decades, before dragging us into the truth, which brings us back to being ready to hear the truth. "Pearls before swine"
Tea anyone?
Muchest Luv in Jesus xxx
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I had just come to these truths in 2008 when I lost my father. The funeral was preached by my BIL who is a wonderful, dear preacherman who contradicted himself in his "sermon" and you wouldn't believe the crap I signed my name to when my dear sister made up pre-printed thank you's to put our names on.
All done with my mouth shut. It would have been POINTLESS to open it and done nothing but cause pain to all.
I don't know what I might do now in 2010 as I am much more firm in my knowledge and beliefs but I might do it all the same way again except for signing my name to the crappola. :D ;) :-\
Pearls to swine is my motto too!
By the way, nice post grapehound. Tea sounds devine...
Lin
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sometimes I feel that friends/family think I'm a "cold" person; I'm not, I'm maybe not the most tactful when trying to say something that I believe is truth; thus for me I even detest the expression "they passed on" etc.; no, they died! to me in not speaking what I feel is truth, is this not perpetuating the deception of the church?
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I was watching one of Rays videos a few months ago. he was saying how heaven is not physical. no physical streets of gold,with physical harps and a physical supper where we'll stuff our mouths full. ;D i think he also said the ressurection wont be physcial. can someone please clarify this?
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I was watching one of Rays videos a few months ago. he was saying how heaven is not physical. no physical streets of gold,with physical harps and a physical supper where we'll stuff our mouths full. ;D i think he also said the ressurection wont be physcial. can someone please clarify this?
Hello SL,
I believe this will help:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
Daywalker 8)
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thank you so much :)