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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: BBryant on April 22, 2006, 11:20:35 AM
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Ray has said in several of his articles that Paul quit baptizing. My question is where does it say this in the scriptures? I was raised to believe that baptism is necessary as a 'representation' of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord - 1Pe 3:21 "the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.."
Can someon explain Peter's statement to me? I understand that no physical act saves us but I still get confused when reading about baptism being mentioned so many times in the NT.
Thank you.
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I think the way Paul said "I Thank God that I ONLY baptised Gaius and Crispus" showed almost an apology for literalizing that which should be spiritual . . .
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Thank you, yachtman. Perhaps within the rest of Paul's statement lies the answer to my question: "...lest anyone may be saying that you are baptized into my name. Yet I baptize the household of Stephanas also. Furthermore, I am not aware if I baptize any other. For Christ does not commission me to be baptizing, but to be bringing the evangel, not in wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ may be made void."
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Ray has said in several of his articles that Paul quit baptizing. My question is where does it say this in the scriptures? I was raised to believe that baptism is necessary as a 'representation' of the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord - 1Pe 3:21 "the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.."
Can someon explain Peter's statement to me? I understand that no physical act saves us but I still get confused when reading about baptism being mentioned so many times in the NT.
Thank you.
Hello B,
Is it necessary to be circumcised in the flesh as well? When we are admonished to die to the flesh are we to physically commit suicide? Are these things physical or spiritual?
Is it possible that this baptism is a spiritual transformation? Or is it just a physical ritual with magical ramifications?
If I sound cavalier it is not my intention, I am only wondering how you feel about these other physical, outward manifestations and if you believe they might be necessary as well.
Sincerely,
Joe
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Is it necessary to be circumcised in the flesh as well? When we are admonished to die to the flesh are we to physically commit suicide? Are these things physical or spiritual?
Is it possible that this baptism is a spiritual transformation? Or is it just a physical ritual with magical ramifications?
If I sound cavalier it is not my intention, I am only wondering how you feel about these other physical, outward manifestations and if you believe they might be necessary as well.
Hi Joe,
To answer your question: I understand that the new covenant eliminated the 'physical' and when we 'die to the flesh' it is spiritual. As I stated, I also understand that no 'physical rite' is required for salvation.
It is difficult for me to explain - I guess I still have a problem with total spiritual understanding although I know the spirit led me to Ray's site. I had for years questioned the 'hell' doctrine and his and Mike's articles have been a blessing in answering many of my questions.
My original question here is related to 1Pe 3:21 "the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.." and why Paul ever baptized at all.
Paul speaks of one Lord, one faith, one baptism which I can understand is the 'immersion' by the Spirit. But I have yet to get a concise, understandable explanation of why water baptism was done at all. This may sound like I'm trying to say that baptism is a requirement for salvation but I do not believe that - I'm just trying to understand WHY it was ever used, period.
Thank you for your help.
Barbara
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Hi Barbara, that is a very legitimate question. Perhaps it is answered by John the Baptist himself;
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Once you begin your baptism in the Spirit, and by fire (which was not available yet, not until Christ's death and resurrection) would the act which symbolizes this be necessary?
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
This appears to be the very last physical rite of the Old Covenant which Jesus fulfilled, this was the last shadow typifying what the New Covenant would represent.
Remember the increase in understanding and the change of heart the apostles experienced, such as the status of the Gentiles, circumcision, etc. and how it took a period of time (accelerated after Pentecost) to come to these "truths."
The total immersion of water baptism was a shadow of the total immersion of ones life in Christ, of dying to the flesh and being reborn in the Spirit;
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Barbara, I have attached a couple e-mails Ray has received that ask the very same question, I hope it helps answer this for you;
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism
Joe
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Thank you so much, Joe.
Is it not just amazing how one can read a verse of scripture hundreds and hundreds of times and still 'not get it'? I am so thankful that I was led to Ray's and Mike's site because there have been so many of my questions answered. Although I've been a 'student' of the scriptures for years and even taught what I thought was truth :cry: , at some point, I began to realize somewhere deep in my heart/mind that something was wrong because there were so many 'seemingly contradictions'. How could I know that the answer wasn't in my intellect? I had to be led by the Spirit to the spiritual truth! Amen And, as you can see, I struggle each day with letting go of some of what I thought was the 'way' for so many years. No one can describe the relief and joy to finally began to understand! Praise His name!
Please pray for me that the Spirit will continue to lead me.
In His Love,
Barbara
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Barbara, you are very welcome. We are all shedding our old carnal beliefs as the Spirit opens our eyes. There are many here that will study and pray with you, sharing the things the Spirit has opened up to them. Continue to read (and reread) and study Ray & Mike's papers with your bible at your side and bring us your revelations and questions. Welcome to the forum.
Joe
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do we believe Paul or Ray or Mike or Jesus?
this is what Jesus said to Nicodemus (talking about being "born-again"):
John 3:5
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
could it be more simple?
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do we believe Paul or Ray or Mike or Jesus?
this is what Jesus said to Nicodemus (talking about being "born-again"):
John 3:5
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."
could it be more simple?
Worm, it actually isn't quite that simple, when Jesus spoke these words He hadn't been crucified and resurrected, there was a transition period during His Ministry. After His death on the cross the New Covenent was implemented, even then the apostles were not immediately transformed or fully understood the implications, that began after Pentecost. Remember the debate among them about circumcism?
"There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE BAPTISM, ONE God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4-6)
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
One baptism in Spirit.
Physical rituals died on the cross.
Joe
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[One baptism in Spirit.
Physical rituals died on the cross.
Joe[/quote]
Heb 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator livethHeb 9:17
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Good stuff Chuck, the prior 2 verses may clear up your point for others who might wonder why you chose this scripture.
Thanks,
Joe
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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Good stuff Chuck, the prior 2 verses may clear up your point for others who might wonder why you chose this scripture.
Thanks,
Joe
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Joe, thanks,
if people would understand Christ was born under the law and taaught under the law to fullfill all things and that the new test. does not start until
after his death and at pentacost the fire began. less confusion would be around.
peace
chuckt
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Baptism like group prayer, affirmations, sabbath, and communion are not for God or to be saved, they are for our needs. You should do these thing, but not to be saved or any other wrong reason. These things are foolish to God, but God does know us better then we know our selves. I believe if you believe in Jesus you should be baptist, because first it does not hurt. Second was because Jesus was baptist. Third God may want you to be baptist? Think of it as a simple affirmation of faith. I was circumcised, my brother was and so was my father. I would never tell a grown man to be circumcised, but there are reasons to have your son circumcised.
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1Pe 3:21 "the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.."
Can someon explain Peter's statement to me?
Barbara,
I would like to weigh in on your original question since I have another POV for you to consider. Baptism has both a 'form' and a 'reality'. 'Water baptism' is the 'physical form' and a 'baptism of repentance' is the 'spiritual reality'. Jesus was baptized with water for repentance. But the only thing Jesus had to repent from was from being led of the law to that of being led of the Spirit, which He received at His water baptism. According to Strong's the word repentance (Gr. metanoeo) doesn't mean 'I'm sorry'. It means 'to have a change of thinking'.This 'change of thinking' was required for Him to "fulfill all righteousness". Jesus had to quit thinking about being led of the law (imputed righteousness) and start being led of the spirit (imparted righteousness) to usher in and demonstrate the reality of the new covenant and Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
Our following after the command of the Lord to be water baptized, I believe, is simply our first act of obedience to fullfill righteousness in our own lives. When we have our 'change of thinking' our conscience is clear before God because we have simply been obedient to His command.
Our 'water form (formality)' is a one time event, but the 'spiritual reality' of 'repenting' is part of our daily walk in Christ where our mind is being conformed to His mind as the Spirit convicts us as to error and we 'repent' or change our thinking. The result is...in that area of our life our conscience is clear before God as we walk in the 'ressurection life of Christ' in that part of our life.
Hope that makes some sense. I'm new here so I hope I haven't said anything toooo heretical :D
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Jesus was baptized with water for repentance. But the only thing Jesus had to repent from was from being led of the law to that of being led of the Spirit, which He received at His water baptism. According to Strong's the word repentance (Gr. metanoeo) doesn't mean 'I'm sorry'. It means 'to have a change of thinking'.This 'change of thinking' was required for Him to "fulfill all righteousness". Jesus had to quit thinking about being led of the law (imputed righteousness) and start being led of the spirit (imparted righteousness) to usher in and demonstrate the reality of the new covenant and Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
:D
I do not agree with the ideal that Jesus had any change of thought. God has only a plan A, and Jesus was from the beginning. I see it as Jesus went through baptism not for his sake, but for our sake. Jesus is our example in all things.
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Jesus was not repentant. That was not the reason he was baptized. He was baptized in order to fulfill the type & shadow requirement of all rabbis to be baptized in water in order to preach. Remember, Christ fulfilled the Law.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
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Jesus was not repentant. That was not the reason he was baptized. He was baptized in order to fulfill the type & shadow requirement of all rabbis to be baptized in water in order to preach. Remember, Christ fulfilled the Law.
Were does it say this I have never read it before?
It would make since though
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In being baptized, Christ was fulfilling the righteousness of the Law being that baptism represented being cleansed from sin. Luke 2 is a good example. Christ's parents performed all duties according to the Law when he was born including physical circumcision.
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I do not agree with the ideal that Jesus had any change of thought. God has only a plan A, and Jesus was from the beginning. I see it as Jesus went through baptism not for his sake, but for our sake. Jesus is our example in all things.
RV
I agree that God has only a Plan A. Jesus, fulfilling the 'imputed' righteousness of the law, by perfectly living according to the law, was part of that plan A. But Jesus didn't just come to give us 'imputed' righteousness by accepting him as Savior. He also came to reveal a "righteousness apart from the law". And why do you say, 'he was baptized for our sake', since we still have a scriptural mandate to be water baptized :?: If he had been baptized for my sake I shouldn't need to be...just like he died on the cross for my sake...so I/you wouldn't have to. Your statement "not for his sake, but for our sake" is a very traditional one, but can you support the merit of it with scriptural backing?
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Jesus was not repentant. That was not the reason he was baptized. He was baptized in order to fulfill the type & shadow requirement of all rabbis to be baptized in water in order to preach. Remember, Christ fulfilled the Law.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
You said, "Jesus was not repentant." Do you then believe that Jesus continued to live according to the law and not according to the Spirit, following His baptism? Please understand that I believe that if Jesus was being led of the Spirit then He truly would have still fulfilled whatever requirements the law may have had.
I too believe that "Christ fulfilled the law" (imputed righteousness) even as you said. I just believe that he went on to "fulfill righteousness" by also 'walking according to the Spirit' during His next 3 1/2 years of ministry.
Nite all
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Christ was always led by the spirit. He was led by the spirit to fulfill the Law. ;)
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Christ was always led by the spirit. He was led by the spirit to fulfill the Law. ;)
I know this post will be 'outside the box' thinking, and I haven't been here long enough to establish any credibility...but here goes anyhow.
Led by the spirit...or by The Spirit? Jesus had His own spirit for 30 years before He received The Holy Spirit. And it was a perfect spirit just like we get when we're 'born again'. But Jesus didn't need to be 'born again', because His spirit was conceived of The Holy Spirit. And when He died on the cross that is the spirit that He yielded up to the Father.
[KJV] LUK 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. I personally believe that we too can be led by 'our spirit' which is born again. For me personally I didn't receive the baptism of The Holy Spirit for 6 months after I had received my born again spirit.
Just some thoughts that work for me.
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Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
We worship God in the spirit, not by ritualistic shadows of the flesh.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism
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No he was led by the Spirit:
John 3:34-35
For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
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I agree that He was led by His spirit until He received The Holy Spirit. But even scholars kind of disagree at this point though.
[KJV] MAT 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
[RSV] MAT 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
NAS, NIV, and Young's Literal Translation all capitalize 'spirit' in this verse but the KJV didn't. There sometimes is a blurring on this point of translation concerning the capitalization of spirit. In the Greek it doesn't tell you what should be capitalized or not. It isn't a matter of translation as much as it is a matter of interpretation in many verses. The capitalization should be reserved for the Spirit of God and the lower case should be reserved for our spirit or the spirit of Jesus. There is a difference according to scripture.
[KJV] ROM 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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I interpret that he was led by the Spirit, not his spirit. I also believe he was led by the Spirit to fulfill the law, including being baptized by water, being circumcised and all other physical shadows so that we would later be given the Spirit which all these things testified to. Then, when he displayed to the world that only by the spirit could the Law be fulfilled, he put that same Spirit within us so that we could fulfill the higher law he brought. ;)
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Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
We worship God in the spirit, not by ritualistic shadows of the flesh.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism
Can you see in the two verses which you quote, the very same dicotomy I pointed out to Love Magnified? Spirit/Ghost is consistantly capitalized in all translations in Mark 1:4. But it is lower case in Philipians 3:3 in KJV, RSV, while in the NAS, NIV, YLT it is upper case. So what case do you think is right? Are you worshiping God with your spirit? Or are you worshiping God with His Spirit....but wait...I thought His Spirit was God :!: Do you see my difficulty with the NIV, NAS, YLT translations on this verse :?:
I read your 1Co 12:13 verse and URL post and they present another difficulty for me scripturally. If this verse means there is only one baptism...then why is it a principle doctrine, according to scripture, to teach multiple baptisms?
[KJV] HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, :2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,...
I'm not trying to argue and say I know it all...the Lord knows I don't. But can we reason together on this forum to seek the truth :D and not just seek to win :evil: It is my sincere hope that we can. Do you have an explanation to share concerning these difficulties I wrestle with?
Love Magnified
Thank you for sharing your understanding...even though I agree with part, disagree with part, and don't know concerning part, of your view :lol
Thank God being a brother/siste is dependent upon who we know and not what we know. :wink:
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Hello Lightseeker, I am of the opinion that the word "spirit" is used to describe the breath of life that is in every creature, the state of being for angels of God, the state of being for satan and his angels, and for the Gift of God, our Lord Jesus as the Comforter;
A few examples of words translated to "spirit" sometimes in upper case, sometimes lower case;
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
H178
אוב
'ôb
obe
From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit.
H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath7307; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
If you look up "principles" in the original Greek text you will see that it primarily means "beginning" in the way it is used, I see it as a jumping off point for the early believers (both then and now) then "Let us go on to perfection." Add to your faith, virtue; and to virtue knowledge, temperence, patience onto........... charity/love/perfection. These are the critical steps, not works of the flesh, this is the fruit of His Spirit what we are to strive for, spiritual growth the works will be manifest in the process, they (works) are not pleasing to God unless they are born of spirit. Rituals and buildings and the like (that are made with hands) are not what God desires, He wants us, all of us in everything to be a living sacrifice, daily.
Man being dust is the ground in the parables Christ's Word is the Seed, He is the Gardener, He is also the Water (Spirit) which nurtures the seeds to maturation, see mustard tree, firstfruits, etc.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles746 of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
G746
ἀρχή
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
Function: verb
Pronunciation: k&-'men(t)s
Inflected Form(s): com·menced ; com·menc·ing
Etymology: Middle English comencen, from Middle French comencer, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin cominitiare, from Latin com- + Late Latin initiare to begin, from Latin, to initiate
transitive senses
: to enter upon : BEGIN <commence proceedings>
intransitive senses 1 : to have or make a beginning : START
2 chiefly British : to begin to be or to act as
3 chiefly British : to take a degree at a university
synonym see BEGIN
- com·menc·er noun
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Hello Joe,
Whew...I thought my posts might be a little too long :shock: You did have some precious nuggets of truth which were thrilling to read.
If you look up "principles" in the original Greek text you will see that it primarily means "beginning" in the way it is used, I see it as a jumping off point for the early believers (both then and now) then "Let us go on to perfection." Add to your faith, virtue; and to virtue knowledge, temperence, patience onto........... charity/love/perfection. These are the critical steps, not works of the flesh, this is the fruit of His Spirit what we are to strive for, spiritual growth the works will be manifest in the process, they (works) are not pleasing to God unless they are born of spirit. Rituals and buildings and the like (that are made with hands) are not what God desires, He wants us, all of us in everything to be a living sacrifice, daily.
Total agreement but do you really mean "early believers?" Do you mean for that to be synonymous with immature or young?
Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
If NT baptism was only of the Sspirit(?) then why did Phillip continue to baptize with water? He surely knew the right protocol for baptism after he had been with the apostles. And yet scripture shows that he baptized at Samaria with....what?
ACT 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women... [/b]
If you say he baptized in Sspirit, then why did Peter and John have to go to Samaria 2 verses later for them to receive the Holy Spirit?
ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
It seems apparent to me that Phillip must have baptized with water because a few verses later Phillip baptized the Eunuch with water?
ACT 8:36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
So when/why are you saying this FORM or SYMBOL of literal water disappeared, since scripture seems to indicate to me multiple baptisms at Samaria and a water baptism on the desert road for the Eunuch?
Thanks for the dialogue Joe and I'm sorry for the length, I'll try to keep mine shorter...for both of our time's sake. :D
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WOW, Dee.....you managed to cover most all of my questions much more thoroughly than I ever could. And, of course, Joe's 'pearls of wisdom' are, indeed, priceless.
Thank you ALL for your input. I do believe that as we grow spritually, we come to the realization that physical acts accomplish nothing in the spiritual realm. However, I also believe that water baptism was used as a 'representation' of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for the NEW babe in Christ - so possibly it serves a purpose.
I have never heard that being baptized was part of the law and would like some sources for that statement. I believe I was taught many years ago that water baptism was a completely new concept introduced by John the Baptist.....of course, I could be wrong.
Nevertheless, it seems that everyone is basically on the same page with some minor differences and, again, I truly appreciate everyone's input.
Barbara
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Hebrews 9 [which references Numbers 19:17–18] is a good reference. The New Testament baptisms were built on the Old. I gave the wrong impression when I said that rabbis had to be baptized. What it meant was ritual purification being a shadow. Christ was not a Levite. He was from Judah. So his baptism represents the fact that God was choosing him to be a priest according to the New Law (Hebrews 7:11-14). I gave the wrong impression. Sorry about that.
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Hello Joe,
Whew...I thought my posts might be a little too long :shock: You did have some precious nuggets of truth which were thrilling to read.
If you look up "principles" in the original Greek text you will see that it primarily means "beginning" in the way it is used, I see it as a jumping off point for the early believers (both then and now) then "Let us go on to perfection." Add to your faith, virtue; and to virtue knowledge, temperence, patience onto........... charity/love/perfection. These are the critical steps, not works of the flesh, this is the fruit of His Spirit what we are to strive for, spiritual growth the works will be manifest in the process, they (works) are not pleasing to God unless they are born of spirit. Rituals and buildings and the like (that are made with hands) are not what God desires, He wants us, all of us in everything to be a living sacrifice, daily.
Total agreement but do you really mean "early believers?" Do you mean for that to be synonymous with immature or young?
Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
If NT baptism was only of the Sspirit(?) then why did Phillip continue to baptize with water? He surely knew the right protocol for baptism after he had been with the apostles. And yet scripture shows that he baptized at Samaria with....what?
ACT 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women... [/b]
If you say he baptized in Sspirit, then why did Peter and John have to go to Samaria 2 verses later for them to receive the Holy Spirit?
ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
It seems apparent to me that Phillip must have baptized with water because a few verses later Phillip baptized the Eunuch with water?
ACT 8:36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
So when/why are you saying this FORM or SYMBOL of literal water disappeared, since scripture seems to indicate to me multiple baptisms at Samaria and a water baptism on the desert road for the Eunuch?
Thanks for the dialogue Joe and I'm sorry for the length, I'll try to keep mine shorter...for both of our time's sake. :D
Hi Dee, we are probably going to have to agree to disagree on this subject, with that being said I believe that the ritual of baptism is not a bad thing, just not anything relevent to growing in His Spirit.
The water baptism is a symbolic initiation to proclaiming faith in God, dying to the flesh, and hope in the resurrection. But who are we declaring that to? Other men? Doesn't God already know what our relationship with Him is? Also, I don't recall saying "water baptism disappeared" only that once we realize that it is baptism in the Spirit that nurtures our growth we begin to realize that;
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
At the time the events in Acts 8 happened Paul had yet to be converted, the apostles were really still digesting the milk of the Word, as we all know that Spiritual understanding does not happen overnight. It took years after Christ's death and Resurrection for all the Truths they were given by Jesus during His ministry to take root and grow, were they not still circumsizing Gentiles at this time (Acts)?
It was many years later that Paul (through the Spirit) came to the realization that;
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Earlier in Galations we have Paul contending with Peter and others over this New Covenant that they were still in the process of understanding;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same, which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
As you can see the apostles were in no way complete in their knowledge, they were still growing together (as are we). Read Acts and compare what they believed at that time versus what they came to realize later.
Anyway, (sorry for another epic) as baptism by water is a rather benign symbolic act, many of us will go through this (I did twice) before we become truly converted. We will leave our first Love (see the Prodigal Son) after we are baptized in water, and as the Spirit works in us one on one and not through the filter of a denomination we come to the realization that our growth in faith has been stunted, we became comfortable, rich and in need of nothing but the Spirit shows us we are wretched, poor & miserable, it is from that point forward that our real growth begins. We are slowly weaned off of the milk and begin to be able to digest the meat of the Word.
I am sorry for the long post, and I will make this the last one for me on this thread.
Thank you for bearing with me.
Joe
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At the time the events in Acts 8 happened Paul had yet to be converted, the apostles were really still digesting the milk of the Word, as we all know that Spiritual understanding does not happen overnight. It took years after Christ's death and Resurrection for all the Truths they were given by Jesus during His ministry to take root and grow, were they not still circumsizing Gentiles at this time (Acts)?
Good observation Jim. When I was 17, the Lord brought this to my attention and I wrote an article on it. Now even before reconciliation was established as truth and acceptable, the revelation that Acts was not a book of doctrine but a chronical of the life of the disciples and apostles as they established (or carried out) their calling.
To give a great example is Jesus said in the beginning of Acts, "John baptized with water, in a short time you shall be baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire." We recognize that Jesus attributed the baptism of John to water and John attributed the baptism of Jesus to the Holy Spirit and Fire. So in Acts 1, Jesus sets the stage for 11 chapters of misery for Peter, who through trials and suffering and even three rebukes from God Himself in a vision, that John baptized with water, everyone else is baptized in Holy Spirit and Fire.
So here we have Acts 2:38, Peter gives an equation which is written in stone by his own words, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
1. Repent
2. Be Baptized (We know Peter water baptized by water at the time)
3. Recieve Forgiveness (as dependant on steps 1 and 2)
3. Receive the Holy Spirit (as dependant on steps 1, 2 and 3)
Then something stranged happened and all the way upto Acts 10, Peter was rebuked by God, was hit hard by persecution and when he finally recognized that forgiveness comes in the Name of Jesus Christ and when one believes they are forgiven. While preaching, the Holy Spirit fell upon the people who believed in the message and noticing that none had been baptized in water, Peter thought he did something wrong when the reality is that Peter was finally doing something right.
Acts 10:43-47
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
1. Repent (Believe in the Name of Jesus Christ)
2. Recieve Forgiveness.
3. Recieve Holy Spirit.
4. Uh...Quick baptize them in water because that wasn't supposed happen that way...
Upon reflecting on the events that transpired, Peter then metaphorically hits himself on the side of the head reflecting on the rebuke he recieved from God and finally announces publicly and repents of his error and brought to rememberance the words of Christ Jesus who has remained the same, yesturday, today and forever, "JOHN BAPTIZED WITH WATER, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:14-18
He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'
"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
Who was Peter to oppose God, who had already made clean all mankind through the Name of His Son Jesus Christ. Water was not the medium, the Name of Jesus and what He did for all mankind was the mode. So they had no further objections and from that day water baptism was never preached again by those who had recieved the Holy Spirit.
Now let me prove a point here. This is going to be surprising to some but make total sense to others. Jesus had always said that Baptism of John was by water and John has always said the Baptism of Jesus was Holy Spirit and Fire. There is no contesting this, except when it came to disciples who did not even know that Jesus was the Christ, and the Pharisees who hoped to spur jealousy amongst John and his disciples and Jesus and his disciples. When Jesus heard of this, Jesus went up and left Judea and went to Galilee. Needing to go through Samaria, Jesus decided to prove a point to his at least one of his disciples (John) who at the time did not understand the things of the Spirit (because the Spirit had not been poured out at this time), what water Jesus would baptize them in.
John 4:1-10
When Jesus knew that the Pharisees heard He was making and baptizing more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), He left Judea and went again to Galilee. He had to travel through Samaria, so He came to a town of Samaria called Sychar near the property that Jacob had given his son Joseph. Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, worn out from His journey, sat down at the well. It was about six in the evening.
A woman of Samaria came to draw water.
"Give Me a drink," Jesus said to her, for His disciples had gone into town to buy food.
"How is it that You, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" she asked Him. For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.
Jesus answered, "If you knew the gift of God, and who is saying to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would ask Him, and He would give you living water."
John 4:13-24
Jesus said, "Everyone who drinks from this water will get thirsty again. But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty again—ever! In fact, the water I will give him will become a well of water springing up within him for eternal life."
"Sir," the woman said to Him, "give me this water so I won't get thirsty and come here to draw water."
"Go call your husband," He told her, "and come back here."
"I don't have a husband," she answered.
"You have correctly said, 'I don't have a husband,' " Jesus said. "For you've had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."
"Sir," the woman replied, "I see that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, yet you [Jews] say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem."
Jesus told her, "Believe Me, woman, an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
As you can see, Jesus was making a statement to you and I and those who witnessed this exchange that Jesus was not baptizing anyone in water, no the water He gives is living water. While the Jews (Pharisee) and Jesus's own disciples baptized people in water that cannot sustain life Jesus said there would be a time when the true worshipers of the Father, worship him in spirit and truth. John baptized with Water, Jesus baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire.
Luke 12:49-50
I have come to cast fire upon the earth, and how I wish that it were already kindled! I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how greatly and sorely I am urged on (impelled, constrained) until it is accomplished!
Mark 10:35-40
Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."
"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory."
"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
Can there be no doubt to the baptism Jesus preached had nothing to do with water? Is there no doubt why Paul said he was not called to baptize any and is glad he did not baptize more than a few. Is there no doubt why everyone was in agreement finally reconciling in their minds the words of Christ when He said, "John baptizes with water but you shall be baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire?"
No doubt, let us follow the Lord in Spirit and in Truth.
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Barbara,
I'm so glad to see you were still reading, since your post, and quote of 1 Peter 3:21, was the reason for me signing up here.
1PE 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
It would appear that when Peter is mentioning the "not putting away the filth of the flesh" he seems to be indicating that the water isn't what's important...but it was still being used in the baptism...sounds like sorta kinda maybe :?: I'm really not sure. But the clear conscience still lines up with imparted righteousness in my book
The fact that 1Peter was written at the same time as the book of Acts (64 AD according to my source) seems to present a difficulty for me too as far as what SOTW said concerning Peter stopping the use of water in chapter 10 of Acts. At least that's what I thought you were saying.
But I also have another difficulty scripturally with something Joe said.
Joe said It was many years later that Paul (through the Spirit) came to the realization that;
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Your comment Joe, concerning the evolving of the disciples and the fact that they were still circumsizing Gentiles was a very good point. But I have another dilemma scripturally with your Galatians verse up above. It was written before Paul made his last appearance in Jerusalem before being arrested. And if what he said above is true then he fell from grace because he went back to the law in Acts 21 which was long after Galatians...I think.
ACT 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present....20..21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25..26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
This sounds to me like Paul recanted on what he wrote in 52 AD to the Galatians and returned to the law :o So am I missing something or do we seem to have a dilemma :?: I must ask for a little clarification for from those who may have some insight here. I personally am coming up a little short.
I know you said you were done posting Joe and I truly appreciate our time together. I gleaned some nuggets from your posts and I thank you for that. Maybe SOTW or someone else could weigh in here though.
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This sounds to me like Paul recanted on what he wrote in 52 AD to the Galatians and returned to the law So am I missing something or do we seem to have a dilemma I must ask for a little clarification for from those who may have some insight here. I personally am coming up a little short.
Hi LH,
There is no dilemma, the difference is the distinguishing between the Law of Christ and the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ is higher than the Law of Moses.
This might help: http://www.*not-allowed*.com/freefromlaw.php
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I can understand the difficulty Lightseeker.
The fact that 1Peter was written at the same time as the book of Acts (64 AD according to my source) seems to present a difficulty for me too as far as what SOTW said concerning Peter stopping the use of water in chapter 10 of Acts. At least that's what I thought you were saying.
Peter writes in his letter, that water is nolonger nessessary but if one wants to be baptized in water, he does not deny them water. For when it is done in this way, water symbolizes the true baptism that now saves us.
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It (the baptism that now saves you in which water symbolizes, [not water baptism]) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Lightseeker, I hope this helps you.
This sounds to me like Paul recanted on what he wrote in 52 AD to the Galatians and returned to the law So am I missing something or do we seem to have a dilemma I must ask for a little clarification for from those who may have some insight here. I personally am coming up a little short.
We have no dilemma. With Paul, Paul was still a Jew and Pharisee still in desire to reach his people with the Gospel. Just like Jesus not needing to be water baptized, but in order to fulfill prophesy, Paul did most of everything he did to reach others with the Gospel. Paul did not put strength in the Law of Moses by obeying its requirments to enter the temple, it was required of him to obey the Law of Moses to enter the temple and preach the Gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:20-23
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
God Bless.
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Love Magnified SOTW,
Thanks for the posts. I had a fair reply for both and lost them in trying to preview/submit. I'm still trying to figure out this protocol stuff. I type up a response and then when I go to preview/submit...it wants me to 'log in' again. Then it goes to a blank message body for response.
Before I could arrow back and resubmit. But yesterday, and just now again, I lost the whole thing. I'm frustrated and short of time. Learning patience through this tribulation also I hope.
Any advice?
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Advise for computer frustration? Here it is: join the club of millions and growing. ;)
That has happened to me too. No rush. I recommend this: if you know your response is lengthy you can do it in word in case that happens. If I have typed a long long response to something, I will usually copy it to the clipboard before submitting, in case something like that happens. If something goes wrong, I can simply go back and paste it in again. It's happened.
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Love Magnified,
Thanks for the computer info. I read part of your web post article concerning the law of Christ...it's not a quick read. Long articles like that 'cause as many questions' as they 'give answers to' for me. Questions like, What about the 'law of liberty', 'law of the Spirit', ' :?: I've dialogued with some 'smart' :wink: theological boys who tell me that questions like that are just a 'heaping of terms' and they all mean the same thing. I have to tell them that I'm from feedlot country and I understand 'heaping' real well. Their heaping and my heaping have a lot in common. :P As far as I can find, your one verse concerning the law of Christ, and fulfilling it, has nothing to do with anything but serving others.
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Are there some subtle differences??? Or maybe even some major differences that have never had their depths plumbed yet? Oh well.
SOTW,
Peter writes in his letter, that water is nolonger nessessary but if one wants to be baptized in water, he does not deny them water. For when it is done in this way, water symbolizes the true baptism that now saves us.
I don't see Peter saying what you see in this verse. I don't see him saying it is no longer necessary, nor does he offer the choice to have or deny water. I do agree that water is merely the symbolic which complements the reality. Question: Do you use bread/wine crackers/grapejuice in communion? Just curious cause I haven't been here long enough to see any positions on that ceremony yet.
Your 1Cor verses do give me something to ponder considering Paul's apparent participating in the law in Acts 21. Maybe he was doing it for a noble reason. But it wasn't "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law."
His purpose in Acts 21 wasn't to 'win Jews to Christ' or 'win them away from the law', which seems to be the purpose of the above verse. The scripture indicates that he went back to the law to appease those "Christian Jews" who were "zealous for the law". So how do you win people away from the OT symbols by participating in OT symbols? Seems hypocritical of Paul to me. May sound like heresy but I think Paul missed God and was judged with imprisionment. Remember The Spirit warning him 2x in Acts not to go to Jerusalem?
Any thoughts?
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Love Magnified,
Thanks for the computer info. I read part of your web post article concerning the law of Christ...it's not a quick read. Long articles like that 'cause as many questions' as they 'give answers to' for me. Questions like, What about the 'law of liberty', 'law of the Spirit', ' :?: I've dialogued with some 'smart' :wink: theological boys who tell me that questions like that are just a 'heaping of terms' and they all mean the same thing. I have to tell them that I'm from feedlot country and I understand 'heaping' real well. Their heaping and my heaping have a lot in common. :P As far as I can find, your one verse concerning the law of Christ, and fulfilling it, has nothing to do with anything but serving others.
That's exactly what the Law of Christ is. It is his new commandment: Believe in him who the Father sent, and love eachother as he has loved us. All the heaping of terms boil down to that. Let me know when you have read the entire paper and give thoughts. God bless you.
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Do you use bread/wine crackers/grapejuice in communion? Just curious cause I haven't been here long enough to see any positions on that ceremony yet.
If you understand the purpose of a tradition, it is not to replace the Truth. Tithing is a tradition, but one does not need to tithe any longer because it was created to sustain the priesthood (who could not work according to the Law). Paul most definitely broke that tradition by remaining a tentmaker and refusing (to the point people had to force give him in Philippians) any offering. Tradition is helpful if it applies to the truth, once the tradition replaces the truth, the tradition is nolonger fruitful. Whether it is water used for baptism (which was John's Baptism [no proof Jesus baptized any]) and communion (which was rememberance of him every time we eat and drink).
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SOTW,
Tradition is helpful if it applies to the truth, once the tradition replaces the truth, the tradition is nolonger fruitful.
I couldn't agree more SOTW. The purpose of a tradition is to remember the reality.
2TH 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
This forum has been good, and given me more to allow the "annointing within" to truly teach that which I must know.
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We no longer see Jesus after the flesh, and also no longer are we to see anyone after the flesh, so what is the big deal of a physical water baptism? When the One who came after John was to baptize us with fire and the Holy Ghost? Seems like the baptism in the water is a type or shadow of the Holy Spirit. Just like the many types or shadows of the Old Covenant.
There is nothing we think, say, or do that will save us except the grace of God. Well, there is a lot more to it than that, but you know what I mean.
I can only speak for myself, but the baptism of water was purely symbolic and felt only ritualistic, and the truth is only Jesus can save. Nothing I can do or wish to do, will cut it. But, I see nothing wrong with being baptized.
John came preaching the kingdom of God, shouting repentence and baptism, but Jesus said whosoever is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John. And where was John's baptism, from men or God? For me, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, before being baptized in water. For many, that is an enigma, but not for me. We are not in the flesh, but the spirit, the flesh has died, but the spirit lives. Jesus was crucified and died, but He rose and is no longer dead, but alive, so why should we quivel over fleshly rituals. When the truth is, if you do not have His spirit in you, you are none of His.
Johns death was very symbolic, too. He was beheaded, and so must the elect (the 144,000). Speaking of the death of the beast (self). We must die and let God be the great I am. For this ole self must follow Jesus and be crucified, die and rise to the life that is in Him, so He can be all in all.
God bless,
Gary