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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lareli on August 13, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
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I have a question about a quote that was on here..
”scripture itself doesn't require me to believe that Samson slew exactly 1000 philistines with the literal jaw-bone of a literal a@@. It does require me to believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus. “
My question is; does scripture requires me to believe that anything written in the Bible is literal? More specifically does scripture require me to believe in the literal/physical death burial resurrection of Christ?
Is the death burial resurrection of Christ the only thing that scripture requires me to believe as literally and physically true?
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I don't think the word "require" is always the clearest term. It implies you can use your own will to believe something.
If God shows it to you then it will be written in your heart and there is nothing required of you to understand.
But you could say a requirement of belonging or not belonging to a congregation is an understanding and belief of certain subjects. E.g., believing Mohammed is greater than Jesus would exclude you from this forum.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Is the death burial resurrection of Christ the only thing that scripture requires me to believe as literally and physically true?
This is just one of many things that will be added to what you believe on your journey. But this one belief does not prove anything other than you could be one of the 'called'. Time will tell if any of us are 'chosen'.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
But this is splitting hairs IMO. I think most here understand the implication when someone says 'requires'.
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Heb 11:6 ...and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.
Without strife over the word "requires", this certainly is an axiomatic statement. Yet it doesn't stand alone. To my mind, this goes well with it:
Act 17:22 And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
Act 17:23 for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God--unknown; whom, therefore--not knowing--ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
Act 17:24 `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
Act 17:25 neither by the hands of men is He served--needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
Act 17:27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, --though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
Act 17:29 `Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
Act 17:30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
Act 17:31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'
Act 17:32 And having heard of a rising again of the dead, some, indeed, were mocking, but others said, `We will hear thee again concerning this;'
Act 17:33 and so Paul went forth from the midst of them,
Act 17:34 and certain men having cleaved to him, did believe, among whom is also Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman, by name Damaris, and others with them.
I think Paul here presented the "things" one must believe. If these "things" are not true, then Paul's faith (and mine) is for nothing. If one thinks the story of Samson might be exaggeration, or hyperbole, or symbolic, or even mythological...and that the jawbone of an a@@ might be the name of a fashioned weapon rather than the partial skeleton of a donkey, so what? If, however, Jesus did not rise from the dead...eat, drink, and be merry (if you can manage it).
That said, it still isn't faith which saves. Certainly not faith alone. All the men of faith listed in Hebrews died without the promise, though they all had faith. We're saved by grace...and grace came by Jesus Christ. Believe it or don't.
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I believe it’s all (the scriptures) true. Spiritually and Psychologically. Literally? I don’t know. I don’t know if it matters.
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I believe it’s all (the scriptures) true. Spiritually and Psychologically. Literally? I don’t know. I don’t know if it matters.
As Ray likes to say about "Literal"
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
Right you are Dave. I am counting on literally being resurrected, just as literally as Jesus was.
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Ahhh.. good comments.
But what about ‘physically’ being resurrected? My understanding is that we won’t have ‘physical’ bodies post resurrection. But I’ve always understood that Christ’s resurrected body was ‘physical’. Doubting Thomas physically touched Him. So will we in fact, like Christ, be resurrected to physical bodies? Will the coming kingdom, in fact, be physical?
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Ahhh.. good comments.
But what about ‘physically’ being resurrected? My understanding is that we won’t have ‘physical’ bodies post resurrection. But I’ve always understood that Christ’s resurrected body was ‘physical’. Doubting Thomas physically touched Him. So will we in fact, like Christ, be resurrected to physical bodies? Will the coming kingdom, in fact, be physical?
We've been thru this before and you've been around long enough to know it.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The flesh of Jesus that Thomas touched was still lower than the angels and angels are not flesh and blood. That fleshly body was dead, but it did not see corruption.
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
"The flesh profiteth nothing"
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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Read the accounts of Jesus after His Resurrection. If He is first among many brethren, that's the "model" for those in Him at resurrection, as far as I'm concerned. Both those who sleep and those who are alive at His coming will be changed.
Read the account of His ascension. As far as I'm concerned, that's the model in fulfillment of "God being all in all". I don't think the apostles just made this stuff up. He is first.
Where the world at large fits in, I don't know. I just believe in the "order" that Jesus laid out.
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Ahhh.. good comments.
But what about ‘physically’ being resurrected? My understanding is that we won’t have ‘physical’ bodies post resurrection. But I’ve always understood that Christ’s resurrected body was ‘physical’. Doubting Thomas physically touched Him. So will we in fact, like Christ, be resurrected to physical bodies? Will the coming kingdom, in fact, be physical?
Here is the link to a paper Ray wrote entitled PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
The resurrection of God's Elect is also discussed in this paper.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.
When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.
When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.
Well, the dead know nothing, and death is our enemy, so no need to lament on this anymore.
Then, the Resurrection happens within a blink of an eye, or even faster than that, at you won't even know how much time had passed.
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No comment on whether or not death is our enemy. Doesn't scripture say it's HIS enemy?
How's that? Even His "enemies" are His. Jesus is Lord.
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Well, as He is, so are we! 😁
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Hallelujah, Our Lord Reigns
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.
When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.
Incapable of sin too.. why do we need to be saved from death then? What are we being saved from? We won’t be suffering.. we won’t be anything.. can we say that we will even exist when we’re dead? How can something that doesn’t even exist be saved?
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My psychology may well be affected by scriptural accounts. But when I am well and truly, really dead, no psychology will save me from that state.
When I am well and truly dead I won’t care about being saved from that state.
When I am well and truly dead, I'll be incapable of apathy.
Incapable of sin too.. why do we need to be saved from death then? What are we being saved from? We won’t be suffering.. we won’t be anything.. can we say that we will even exist when we’re dead? How can something that doesn’t even exist be saved?
I'll let paul speak.
1 Corinthians 15:12-31
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied
. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
And no matter wheater we believe or not, its God's will that we die, are truely dead, and are litterally raised alive again.
Jeses said...
John 6:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jeremiah 29:11
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
His will can never be stopped.
Isaiah 14:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed,and who can thwart him?
His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
Job 42:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
This can be believed ot not but it can't be stopped.
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Even though I'm perplexed by your questions I decided to take a stab at them.
Incapable of sin too.. why do we need to be saved from death then?
Can you raise yourself? Can you rid yourself of sin? Even those who were resurrected by Jesus still were with sin and had to die again. because the wages of sin are death. They will be raised again, to be transformed into new and glories bodies where the power of death holds no power. This is when God's creation of man is complete.
What are we being saved from?
The state of death itself, so we can continue our lives in the way God purposed from the beginning of creation. Death is just one step in the process of life, it is not in Gods plan or will that we continue on in the state.of nothingness.
We won’t be suffering.. we won’t be anything.
All that we are now, will go back to the one who gives life, for safe keeping until we are raised to continue our lives.
You will be in God's memory, wheather you choose to believe it or not.
This is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).
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Didn’t mean to perplex you Wanda.. got off track when responding to Dave’s comment about psychology not saving you after you die. My point was that I see the Bible as spiritually and psychologically true but not all of it is literally true. Which parts are literally true or not.. I’m not sure. I don’t know that it matters if I believe a part is literally true as long as I believe it as spiritually/psychologically true.
The life, death, burial, resurrection of Christ was the original aspect of my question. Because Dave had mentioned in another thread that scripture requires literal belief of some things but not of everything. I’m paraphrasing Dave’s comment.
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The life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus is literally and spiritually true in all aspects as described in the New Testament.
Everything and all salvation hangs on it.
Which is why Satan attacks the truth and in his subtle ways tries to cast doubts on the truth.
All he wants is for his minions to cast the slightest doubts and thereby overthrow the spiritually weak who are not the Elect. Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
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Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
Maybe define "power" John. Because I wrestle and fall all the time. Vanity, lust, etc. None of us are perfect (yet).
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
Maybe define "power" John. Because I wrestle and fall all the time. Vanity, lust, etc. None of us are perfect (yet).
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I agree with your Scriptures. You seem to have the same problem I do. I cannot stop sinning. Good thing we have a Savior.
However, the Sriptures tell us God chose the Elect before creation.
There is no free will. We cannot choose to be the Elect. Neither can we unchoose to be the Elect.
God is sovereign. Whom God has chosen to be the Elect, will be the Elect at God's appointed time. Satan has no power to negate God's will. Satan cannot deceive the Elect or stop the Elect.
Which is why it is written in the Book of Revelation, that the Woman, the true Church, will be taken on the wings of eagles, to be protected from the flood of waters sent by Satan to harm the true Church, the Elect. It is God Who protects the Elect, His chosen ones. We have nothing to fear.
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Understood
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absolutely correct John,
We are weak and may sin up until the last day, but God shall have His way and those God elects cannot be lost. Although, in my view, we can suffer quite a bit from necessary and beneficial correction along the way. For sure we will not be able to say "I did it my way".
Even so, God's correction, based on full knowledge of our limitations, is from love and leads to each person being corrected according to their strengths and weaknesses given to each one by God.
Indiana bob
Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
Maybe define "power" John. Because I wrestle and fall all the time. Vanity, lust, etc. None of us are perfect (yet).
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I agree with your Scriptures. You seem to have the same problem I do. I cannot stop sinning. Good thing we have a Savior.
However, the Sriptures tell us God chose the Elect before creation.
There is no free will. We cannot choose to be the Elect. Neither can we unchoose to be the Elect.
God is sovereign. Whom God has chosen to be the Elect, will be the Elect at God's appointed time. Satan has no power to negate God's will. Satan cannot deceive the Elect or stop the Elect.
Which is why it is written in the Book of Revelation, that the Woman, the true Church, will be taken on the wings of eagles, to be protected from the flood of waters sent by Satan to harm the true Church, the Elect. It is God Who protects the Elect, His chosen ones. We have nothing to fear.
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we also have a hope that many do not. if they do believe they live with a doctrin that teaches God does not save all, and in addition, has a place of eternal torment for many. From my experience there's no hope, peace or comfort to be found in that.
We know the plan, the purpose and the outcome, which is a glorious hope we've been given. When this age is complete, the salvation of all will be realized by everyone who has ever been given life, and we will All rejoice and give praise and glory to the one who purposed it all.
Personally, I don't give much thought to being one of the chosen. I'm blessed to be called and be able to see many of these truths, which were hidden for many years. Our God has the great wisdom, and ability to accomplish his perfect and just will, to prosper us All in his righteous ways. Each and everyone. We will All be ritchly blessed, being freed from this slavery of sin we fight so hard against.
There is great comfort and assurance to be found in these words.
Jeremiah 29:11
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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Right Wanda. Let's also keep this in mind, and try not to forget these words, but to always be in rememberance of them.
Romans 15
6That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 6
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Even if we are only called, we will all be reconciled to God. God has given us these Truths, so give Him praise for that.
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Even if we are only called, we will all be reconciled to God. God has given us these Truths, so give Him praise for that.
1 Peter 1:
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,
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Tennesse Dave stated in another thread there was a way to tell if you might be of the elect class, and it involved love. I pondered on that from time to time, until I came across this parable in Luke.
Luke 14:12-14.
12 And He went on to say to the one who had invited Him, When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. 13 But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 And you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.
The first thing that came to mind was, God is LOVE. Believing in that long before I was called, and I believe it was the very thing God used to call me to him. It is the single most important aspect of who he is, the driving motivation for all he does. For God so loved the world he died for us. There is no greater love. He loves us without expectation.
What I believeJesus is saying here, that to attain the first resurrection, “the resurrection of the just,” one must know and practice the principle of grace and love without expectation.
Maybe fretting over our inability to fight sin is tangled up in this truth. Perhaps the more we extend AGAPEO love to others without expecting anything in return, the less we will sin.
I edited this post to reflect the correction on the types of love, Ray taught, I didnt want to confuse or misrepresent Ray.
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Actually Ray taught that the phileo type of love was a better type of love than agape love.
Very many false Christian teachers and ministers teach that agape love is the highest form of love. Very boring and something you hear over and over.
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Actually Ray taught that the phileo type of love was a better type of love than agape love.
Very many false Christian teachers and ministers teach that agape love is the highest form of love. Very boring and something you hear over and over.
Yep - Here is the YouTube video: https://youtu.be/PT7CANf88VY (https://youtu.be/PT7CANf88VY)
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Thanks for correction on that important difference.
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Yep - Here is the YouTube video: https://youtu.be/PT7CANf88VY
Thanks, I needed to listen again.
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The life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus is literally and spiritually true in all aspects as described in the New Testament.
Everything and all salvation hangs on it.
Which is why Satan attacks the truth and in his subtle ways tries to cast doubts on the truth.
All he wants is for his minions to cast the slightest doubts and thereby overthrow the spiritually weak who are not the Elect. Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
Doubting is part of the process of knowing. Satan’s attacks are necessary.. for overthrowing some and for strengthening others.
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The life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus is literally and spiritually true in all aspects as described in the New Testament.
Everything and all salvation hangs on it.
Which is why Satan attacks the truth and in his subtle ways tries to cast doubts on the truth.
All he wants is for his minions to cast the slightest doubts and thereby overthrow the spiritually weak who are not the Elect. Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
Doubting is part of the process of knowing. Satan’s attacks are necessary.. for overthrowing some and for strengthening others.
Not so. Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
When Jesus' Spirit gives you the truth, it does not come with doubts. You know with a certainty when you are plugged into the real thing. It is called Faith and is a gift from God. You got it or you don't.
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The life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus is literally and spiritually true in all aspects as described in the New Testament.
Everything and all salvation hangs on it.
Which is why Satan attacks the truth and in his subtle ways tries to cast doubts on the truth.
All he wants is for his minions to cast the slightest doubts and thereby overthrow the spiritually weak who are not the Elect. Of course, Satan has no power over the Elect.
Doubting is part of the process of knowing. Satan’s attacks are necessary.. for overthrowing some and for strengthening others.
Not so. Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
When Jesus' Spirit gives you the truth, it does not come with doubts. You know with a certainty when you are plugged into the real thing. It is called Faith and is a gift from God. You got it or you don't.
I said ‘part of the process’. The process of coming to the truth begins before you know the truth... *obviously.
Would you be here if you hadn’t first doubted what the Christian Church had taught you? Do you think Satan wanted you to doubt what the Christian Church had taught you?
Besides I don’t doubt the truth. All of scripture is true. I just don’t know which parts are literal/physical versus spiritual. And I don’t know if that matters. Maybe you know. I do not.
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Aren't the Christian churches the synagogues of Satan? Don’t they froth at the mouth
to get people to have faith IN Jesus Christ ? Because if you don’t believe IN Christ you will
remain in your sins and be condemned to hell. Isn’t that what they preach?
Why? Because they dispise God’s Word, Truth, Jesus is truth and Jesus is faith.
It is my understanding that this faith we have belongs to Jesus and He gives us a measure , maybe
just the size of a mustard seed but this little bit of faith
is through the Divine Holy Spirit as a gift.
Saved by Grace THROUGH Faith , THROUGH Jesus. There are many scriptures on Faith and in my humble and sincere opinion I believe there is a big difference in having faith IN Christ and having
the faith OF Christ. I believe it increases when we seek the truth more and more. Is that what
the parable of the bags of gold is about. To invest The gold wisely , keep digging , turn His five
bags of gold into ten and even get what the lazy and wicked had. Anyway , about doubting.
We all know the near story of Doubting Thomas. John 19-29.
The scriptures make it a point to tell us the doors were locked both times that Jesus appeared.
Reminding us and proving to the deciples that He is Spirit and can appear out of thin air.😮😃
But now He is also flesh and speaks, “Peace be with You” proving Himself yet again, but
Jesus knows Thomas still doubts because Jesus reads his thoughts of course and obliges Thomas to feel His flesh proving once again that He Jesus is real. Thomas was not with the apostles the week
that they received the Holy Spirit. Did Thomas (Didymus, which means twin, or double) receive
the Holy Spirit when Jesus said “stop doubting and believe)?
28- Thomas said” my Lord and my God”
29- Then Jesus told him” Because you have seen me, you have believed; but Blessed are those
who have not seen and yet have believed”
I have a question, who does Thomas represent?
James 1:5-9
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God who gives generously to all without finding
fault and it will be given to you. But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because
the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person
should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double -minded and
unstable in all they do.
James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has Not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be RICH IN FAITH and to inherit the Kingdom He promised those who LOVE HIM.
We are very Blessed here at BT to have this sacred knowledge. We may not all have the same
measure of faith but we do Love Him. It is my belief that we are here because this is where God has planted us whether we like it or not. Our ways are not His ways. We are being remoulded on the potters wheel and it hurts like heck at times but until we are a finished , shiny, unbreakable
pot passed through the hot kiln , we will endure. May God be with us and have mercy on His
new creation through this process. All Praise and All Glory to Our Dear Lord and Savior God Almighty,,,,,, Jesus Christ. He is all that matters. My Love to all of you , Pamela
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Yep - Here is the YouTube video: https://youtu.be/PT7CANf88VY (https://youtu.be/PT7CANf88VY)
thank you dennis for posting this video by ray. with the state of things in this country and in the world we are living in it helps tremendously to know how believers in Christ are to apply the two different types of love.
claudia